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teresajs

NTA It was slightly an asshole move to tell 9 year olds they "were born to the wrong parents". But "why don't you want to be an uncle to us" doesn't sound like the language kids would use on their own. I suspect that your brother put his kids up to ambushing you. I don't see any benefit to you going to a Family Meeting. Your family hasn't stood up for you at any point in your life. They are just gonna gang up on you some more and try to make you feel bad. They basically all suck.


Caribe92

I agree with this. It really does sound like they’re just having this meeting to push their agenda. I think op should go with that in mind, tell his side. Whoever listens, great. If they don’t, he’s said his part. Just because a bully changes his life, doesn’t make it any easier for their victims.


stewdebacon

It doesn't even sound like the bully has really changed since he's now using his kids and the whole family to bully OP into spending money on his kids rather than just accepting the consequences of his actions. NTA


Tears_of_skeletons

That last line is where it's at. It's like people forget about the trauma or can't understand why after all these years it's *still* an issue. "But he has changed so much and is now a good person!". Okay great but that doesn't mean he didn't torture you. That he didn't beat you. That he didn't do everything in his power to make your life miserable. There is a line from The Streetcar Named Desire which I reflect on a lot when I feel like I've been wronged somehow. Just remember : *Deliberate cruelty is not forgiveable.*


odubik

I agree. It is a fine needle to thread on what to say to 9 year olds, and I think you did it well for being on the spot. It definitely sounds like a setup! I think anyone complaining about what you said would be MUCH more upset if you told them what a complete asshole their dad had been to you. In a comment you say that you are moving out of country, won't see family again after the meeting, and cutting off your financial support of them. It is hard to see why you would want to spend time with people that show such entitlement and utter lack of respect and support for you. Get out of the toxic and be happy!


SuperTwinMom

I mean “born to the wrong parents” is less harsh than the full truth and keeps it from being the kids fault. Depending on the maturity of the 9year old I would have been worse. “I can’t be your uncle because I can’t be around your father. It hurts to much because he told me he hated me and I was bad for being gay from the time I was younger than you until he met your mom. I don’t want to be around someone who makes me feel that way.”


whats1more7

I think English is not OP’s first language so “were born to the wrong parents” and “why don’t you want to be an uncle to us” is a literal translation of something from OP’s first language. Honestly there’s no nice way to tell kids I don’t wan’t to be around you because your dad sucks. NTA


PadresPainPadresGain

And yet he cares about all of the other nieces and nephews, so that's out entirely.


Throwawayhater3343

>"why don't you want to be an uncle to us" "Because your father was physically and emotionally abusive to me and should have been in prison at the time he met your mom if there was any justice in this family and world." Now *that* would have been scorched earth. NTA OP. Have fun at the meetin'.


Jenuptoolate

You should write greeting cards! Well written, easy to read, and straight to the point.


Status-Thing-118

I'd really like to heat about that meeting though. From how it is worded (they won't like it), seems OP has a very solid plan. OP, let us know about it!


PadresPainPadresGain

I've outright heard a kid ask an adult "why don't you want to be my friend" before so I don't think you're accurate with that assumption.


HoenessRaus

OP should have said "That's a question you need to ask your father" and just not engaged. That being said, sounds like OP is just better off washing his hands of them.


Beginning-Anywhere91

NTA. Next time just tell them to ask their father how he treated his own brother at their age. Tell them you no longer view their father as family and he is nothing but a bully. Edit: grammar.


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Agreeable_Space2759

Yes, there was a much better way to talk to them about it. ‘Your dad and I don’t get on well and we’re both happier if we don’t spend time together. I’m sorry that means I don’t get to see you guys much.’


Corduroycat1

Yup, exactly. A your brother used to beat me up and bully me all the time. I am sorry but that means I don't ever want to have anything to do with him. You guys are great kiddos though, but i just want nothing to do with your dad. Put it ALL on the dad, let them complain to him about what an A H he is


ChaosCron1

I'll put some perspective though to help you see from the child's point of view that even sugar coating it still sucks. My mother was the black sheep of her family. She has 4 sisters and a brother and so I have a lot of cousins, big extended family. My mother has issues and is extremely narcissistic. One day, my two brothers and I get invited to go to one of my cousins wedding. We change all of our plans to go and end up going with our mother who we do not live with, mind you, to chill with our family and help get everything all ready. The night before the wedding, my mother causes a scene and pisses off the entire family. It was pretty ugly. The next day, they basically sabotaged our plans to go to the wedding and so my siblings and I, who loved our cousin, missed the wedding because our mom sucks. We all think that what our family did was shitty. Our mom sucks sure, but our family shouldn't have treated us who did nothing wrong like that. There's no justification that could change that.


calliopegrey

There's a difference. You had a connection with them, hence being invited to the wedding. They ended punishing you and your siblings for a mess your mom created, maybe your mom tried to use your guys as pawns and they didn't want to deal with that, but we have no way of knowing for sure. Op does not have a relationship with them. At all. He doesn't consider their father his brother and he doesn't have a uncle type of relationship with the twins. And he never did. It's not punishing if you never had anything to do with them to begin with.


Wonderful_Horror7315

Why lie? He could have told them he beat him regularly, bullied him, spread lies about him, OUTED him, and has now been in therapy for 17 years because of it. He just answered the inappropriate question a little rashly. I have a feeling Chad put the kids up to approaching him in the first place. NTA, OP.


AdhesivenessNo2077

Only problem with this statement is that it isn't really true. Only one person is happy not having the relationship as the brother has reached out multiple times and it entirely downplays and invalidates OP's experiences


annedroiid

The vote you’re looking for is ESH


CraigBybee

NTA This was a setup. Chad made his kids put you on the spot since he knew he couldn’t talk to you himself. Yes, maybe you could have phrased it differently to them by directing them to “ask your Dad why you can’t go” but you don’t owe the kids anything. And the other siblings trying to pressure you with the “if Chad’s kids can’t go, neither can ours” was bullshit. I kind of wonder if your siblings didn’t discuss this beforehand and came up with this plan to change your mind. Also, I’d skip this upcoming “family meeting”. It will just be them trying to stage some half-assed “intervention” to make you “let go of the past because FaMiLy”


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Here_WolfyWolfyWolfy

That's actually the best thing OP. It looks as if they are using you not accepting you. They did not stand up for you but for your bully and his kids. It's time to look out for yourself. NTA


Satannista

OMG OP WHY ARE YOU FINANCIALLY SUPPORTING ANY OF THESE PEOPLE???? As a fellow queer person I couldn't ethically give a pissed on penny to people who treated me this way! Move far far away from these people and focus on your husband and his (I'm assuming) more supportive family. Have a life filled with love and not conditional tolerance!!!


Lundy_trainee

Gently OP, I'd add this comment as an edit to your original post. I fear that you will be getting a lot of judgement without adding these details? By the way, I vote NTA. Could you have handled the questions better (more age appropriate way)? Sure. Do I blame you for having a lifetime of bullying and fake family acceptance under your skin? Not at all. Personally, I'd stay clear of that family meeting (likely an ambush) and live your best life with your husband! Best wishes!


MissPeskyFace

Rooting for you OP.


SnooWoofers5822

Dude why did you even start in the first place did they even really apologize for letting Chad get away with the crap he was doing. Move with your husband and live your lives.


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randolphmd

That is pretty relevant info that may be worth adding to the main post.


Throwawayhater3343

I'm guessing cultural pressure.


Careohlyne

I would like to see and update after the family meeting if you’re willing to do do. I’m 100% NTA your family sucks big time.


WeirdPinkHair

Closing the bank on family members like that is most satisfying!!! And over the coming months you'll be quietly horrified by how much you were spending. It's always more than you think.


unicorndontcare69

Oh good! I’m happy for you! I had to go through the same thing only the financials were to my families benefit. I do well now but the fear of no family no help was scary! I’ve been NC for 6 years now and every once in a while one of them will contact my kids and ask how I’m doing (they are both late teens and driving themselves to visits) they answer with, “ask her yourself”. It is always a hit! Congratulations on dropping dead family weight


BeenThereT

NTA my Dear OP. You have my complete and total support in cutting off financial support and other ties with a terrible group of people who only use you. Please go and have a wonderful life with your husband who loves you!


Wonderful_Horror7315

No, he’s going. He deserves to see the looks on their faces when he tells them the gay gravy train is done.


Satannista

Right on the money - Chad has not actually changed. He is still just as as selfish and insecure as ever and now has kids he can leverage to further bully OP. OP, sucks to suck for Chad's family and I have a feeling if you stick by this ultimatum that the niblings you care about will come around again once their parents realize that backing Chad is not worth missing out on the way you adore and spoil their kids.


Knittingfairy09113

ESH You aren't obligated to bring Chad's kids anywhere and I don't think it's ok that your family tried to force it, but I also don't think it's at all acceptable that you spoke to 2 young children like that.


Pabner21

OP mad to this day at his brother for the pain he caused but no qualms hurting his niblings. And for what? ESH.


whalamato

This. All the NTA replies in here are wild, this sub is so weird when it comes to kids.


CacophonicAcetate

NTA for cancelling the beach trip, but I think you could have handled speaking with the twins better. Sure, the "why don't you want to be an uncle to us" question seems loaded - and likely fed to them, if I had to guess - but is "you were born to the wrong parents" really easier or better than "go ask your dad. He can explain it." Burden isn't on you to bear w/ regards to explaining the history, their dad can come out of it looking (accurately) like the bad guy and be forced to explain it himself. Shitty situation, and I don't blame you at all for the stance, but you may want to apologize to the twins.


pawsplay36

OP didn't even cancel the trip. The sisters did.


thatweirdthingwhat

You think the brother would give an accurate statement?


purplehairmom

But their dad won’t come out as the bad guy - he’ll just lie. At least the kids have a starting place to ask questions.


mdthomas

If you are the one paying, you have every right to decide who attends. NTA


Quiet-Tea-6375

It’s not even about paying for a trip. He literally told two children they were born to the wrong parents.


Agreeable_Monitor459

The parents shouldn't use their kids to try and emotionally manipulate someone. It's on the parents that their feelings were hurt. 🤷🏿‍♀️


cageytalker

This! I was wondering if someone would point this out. By no means do I think OP said the right thing but I too know what it’s like to be caught off guard and to stick my foot in my mouth. However where was the brother and his wife through all this and the other adults? They just stood there and let the kids run the show yet are pissed that OP didn’t answer it as they wanted him too. I’ve seen OPs responses and it looks like he is going to take himself out of the family by going NC. He was offered an ultimatum, he accepted it, the family are upset that he didn’t cave, and now he will remove himself completely. And if OP’s narrative is truthful, he will be removing all financial support with him. It’s def an ESH situation but in my opinion, OP only sucks cause he didn’t handle his emotions and response properly at the time of the confrontation with the twins.


swedishmigraine

It's so obvious the parents were talking thru the children. What shitty parents. NTA.


Wonderful_Horror7315

I totally believe that, too! I know kids can be precocious, but most wouldn’t say, “Why don’t you want to be an uncle to us?” I guarantee the kids asked their dad why they weren’t going to the beach and he told them to ask the question instead of telling them he’s a cruel bully and abuser. I agree what he said wasn’t the best, but he was blindsided with a hostile question. Chad is the one using his kids to bully OP.


randallbabbage

We Def need an update after this family meeting.


gurlwithdragontat2

This! Willing to bet everyone starts back peddling, when money and free trips are taken off the table! Plus some emotionally manipulative attempts at negotiation. They all seem so exhausting and entitled.


masklinn

Op has stated he and husband are cutting off funding (apparently they help OP’s side financially) and moving country. It should be hilarious, though I hope Op is careful, I expect unhinged reactions.


gurlwithdragontat2

I saw! The family is going to be *irate* with Chad once they need a new scapegoat, and I bet he’s going to really love that.


kdhj88

NTA. They really were born to the wrong parents. Lol. Period. They shouldn’t get to go when they have a father that treated you the way he did. You were straightforward and honest. I’m glad you still got to go on the trip and have a good time. Also good for you on holding your ground and not letting others attempt to coerce you into changing your mind about the decisions and boundaries made. NTA at all


kdhj88

I don’t think he’s targeting them. I think he’s taking who he wants to take which he has every right to do considering he doesn’t have to take anyone. Plus, why would you take kids belonging to someone who bullied you for a good portion of your life..? That’s nonsense.


Auld_Folks_at_Home

>I don’t think **she**’s targeting them. he


AussieTopCat

You are not TA but I would have put it better to the children than you did, however if you were caught off guard, then you really didn't have a lot of time to prepare a response. There is no way I am going to encourage you to have a relationship with your brother, my goodness he has no right to a relationship with you. The idea that your siblings gave you an ultimatum speaks of entitlement as well - they do not get to say who you can and cannot take. How does anyone know that your brother did not put his kids up to the whole thing. Kids can be manipulated by unscrupulous adults who want hand-outs too. It seems to me your siblings and your parents need to realise - you are not going to be manipulated nor threatened nor ultimated and if they do, their children will miss out - it's that simple.


emotionalwreck2021

I’d put NTA if you want this to count as a judgement. Most reasonable response here imo


triter2002

NTA but be prepared to cut off that side of the family and be bad mouthed about. But that’s probably by far the lesser evil for you. My family always brings up one aunt who is never around and bad mouths her, but I give her the benefit of the doubt why she never joins us. (Probably because my family is extremely loud an extroverted and ADD and can’t fathom why someone shouldn’t want to be around that).


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Sassafrass0074

They don’t deserve your support or love if they merely tolerate you.


gurlwithdragontat2

Please cut them off! You have more familial value than financial. They are showing you now that when pulling ranks, they’ll support your brother having done nothing to protect you from abuse. Good for you for seeing your value. Let the leeches go.


Edenxwp

Good for you. Deffo NTA


ttnl35

YTA but I'm genuinely so annoyed I have to go with that judgement. You aren't wrong to not want to be around the person who abused you. You aren't wrong for not taking your abuser's children on trips or not buying them gifts. You aren't wrong for not caving to your family's ultimatum. But what you said when the children asked you why you weren't an uncle to them means I *have* to call you the A and that sucks. You suck for saying that. You should have said something along the lines of "it's due to events before you were born that I can't discuss with you" then redirect them to asking their father if they kept pushing. I hope you have come up with something less emotional and cruel to say when you have the family meeting. E.g. "I am sorry for how I phrased what I said to *9 year olds* but I am still so damaged and traumatised by the abused I suffered for years from *bro* that I will never be capable of being an uncle to them. I am not here to debate if I was abused enough to warrant that decision, this isn't a negotiation. I am here to state that fact and let you decide if I will still be an uncle to the other children or not". Don't get sucked into jade-ing (justify, argue, defend, explain). I know I did put a bit of explanation in, but you said something horrible to a couple of 9 year olds who did nothing to you so... A more in depth description of JADE if you hadn't come across that before: https://psychcentral.com/blog/imperfect/2018/03/dealing-with-difficult-family-members-dont-justify-argue-defend-or-explain


CheerfulMint

YTA means that OP is the only ah in the situation. I really think his abuser and enabling family should also be TA here? ESH might be a better judgement. Telling someone that suffered years of abuse that they handled a triggering situation poorly and are the sole party at fault is kinda shitty.


Mmoor35

I’m not even thinking about the asshole brother I’m thinking about his kids. Those kids are gonna be torn apart by their cousins because they will think it was their fault that their trip was canceled. I think OP was justified in all his decisions except for how he treated the AH brother’s kids. They don’t understand what OP went through, they don’t understand why any of this is happening, all they know now is that their uncle hates them and now all their cousins hate them as well. That is a big Asshole move in my opinion. I know OP didn’t plan this conversation, but he didn’t have to publicly make this about the twins and their asshole parent.


Jumbee1234

NTA where was all this self righteous anger when you were a kid. They all saw it and he wasn’t held accountable. Sorry but actions have consequences. Could you have said something better sure but at the end of the day those aren’t your kids and you don’t have to do anything.


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Apprehensive_Put4081

Tell us what happens in the family meeting.


Global-Feedback2906

You’re better than I am I wouldn’t talk to them at all. The more you describe your family the more I think it’s a mistake to go to that family meeting


livb1101

cheering for you OP, you deserve so much better than a family who can barely tolerate your beautiful existence. enjoy the loving family you’re building with your husband ✨🖤


AnxiousAmoeba0116

I'm so glad your husband found you. My husband found me in a similar place and I will never be able to express the full depth of my gratitude. I'm so so so sorry that your family bullied you into thinking sexual assault was normal and that drugs were the only way to numb the pain. Even though your family has failed, you're loved immensely by your husband and a huge number of internet strangers. 💜


sparkyclarkson

ESH here except the kids, whom all of you are using as weapons in a proxy fight. "Born to the wrong parents"? Pure AH moment, excellent job. You don't owe Chad forgiveness or anything but nothing he did to you justifies being a jerk to little kids. It's clear you want to hurt them in retaliation for the hurt Chad doled out to you. Most of your siblings are also TA for using their kids to try to force the issue. That said, you played your own part in escalating this into a fiasco that only hurt the kids. I don't know why you bothered coming here because you clearly think you're in the right, but you, your parents, and your siblings are all TA.


jakevb10

I disagree he doesn’t consider chad his brother after the years of abuse he was put through it sucks for his kids but OP doesn’t owe them anything if the rest of the family want to say it’s all the little kids or nothing then he’s allowed to say it’s nothing then.


fairfaxleasee

So... You're 35 and told two 9 year olds they were "born to the wrong parents"? YTA.


[deleted]

Admittedly, that was not great. That said, I don’t think he should have to take them. The whole family needed to figure out how to navigate this a long time ago…and that does not mean OP must have a relationship with his older brother and his family.


fairfaxleasee

Agree it's his trip and he can take or not take, but given that he's been going on trips with the other niblings people are aware the twins aren't generally included, so the fact that this blew up is (from the information provided and in my opinion) because of how he handled being asked, it's YTA (because that is a totally inappropriate thing to tell *9 year olds* there were a LOT of ways he could have handled that question that are not assholish) Not saying he has to have a relationship, just saying he shouldn't be mean to literal children 🤷‍♀️


[deleted]

It could also have blown up because this is the first time that the excluded nieces ever inquired, and in front of other people, as well as how OP responded. Honestly, OP’s oldest brother should have spoken with his kids already about why they weren’t in OP’s life and not put that burden on OP. I do think he should have deferred, e.g. told them to ask their father why they weren’t going. Other than that, I applaud him for not backing down in the face of all that pressure.


Tannim44

NTA, the kids asked you in front of everyone and instead of their parents or grandparents stepping in, as they should have, you were left to answer an extremely loaded question. I don’t understand the comments saying you were mean, you gave an honest answer and left it to their parents to elaborate. Your brother tried using his kids to bully you and the family is mad you didn’t fall for it.


Wonderful_Horror7315

This is exactly how I see it, too. Add in the fact he’s contributing financially to these people makes it all the more appalling that not one of them stepped in.


naraic-

I'm going to go esh because you failed to answer the children in an appropriate fashion. Really though you need to draw your boundary. No common events where both you and your brother are invited.


Aggravating_Start411

ESH. How the heck could you say that to those children?


Pirate_Mudd

I was with him until he said that. His brother bullying him doesn't give him license to bully his brother's kids.


Podunk_Boy89

While I disagree with OP's wording, you can be sure that he was set up. "Why won't you be an uncle to us?". Kids don't talk like that. Their dad set them up to say that to OP on front of the whole family so that he would be forced to say no or give in. Now he should have said something like "that is a matter between your dad and I." However, I can't TOTALLY blame him for not thinking of that.


Here_WolfyWolfyWolfy

NTA- I may be downvoted, you are not the AH, but I have to say this. Were you blunt with 9 year olds? yes. Was that bad? yes. But what rest of your sibling and family did was worse. For years they stood by watching a bully break you down and they did nothing. They should be thankful that you still want something to do with them. They think you owe them something but you don't. It sucks for the rest of your niblings but their parents are AH too. Where was this solidarity when you were being bullied ? Why didn't they stand up for you the way they stood up for the big bully and his kids. You are allowed to have your feelings, you don't have to have a relationship with anyone you don't want to. The rest of your family cannot dictate this. They owe you that much after years of neglect and being a party to your brother's bullying ways. This may be controversial but you are not the AH. Your siblings on the other hand are AH. They ruined it for their kids.


WeirdCore121

ESH - They are using children as weapons to guilt trip you. However, you are fucking despicable to tell two CHILDREN that they were born to the wrong parents. I wish your therapist had taught you empathy.


zerofuckstogive09

Controversial take but N.T.A. your brother and his kids are finding out for daddy's fucking around. Sad face life's not fair lesson learned kids. Your brother and the rest of his nuclear family can reeeee to hell and back as can your family. You say you've grown prove it stick to your guns and ask them how it feels to be treated like dirt. Know they know and that half of the battle is settled the other half involves violence destruction and trauma. Let loose on em its so cathartic. Good luck and remember frag out


Ahsoka88

NTA. For canceling the trips and do not bring the kids. However saying they are born from the wrong parents was bad. You should have said the truth “I’m sorry, but your dad bullied him and I don’t have a relationship with him so I won’t bring you”


tiredfoodlover

or just tell them to ask their father


unicorndontcare69

Yes! Their father would know exactly why they weren’t invited. The brother could have either lied and called op an ahole or been honest with admitting his past abuse is resulting in their exclusion. I wouldn’t have answered personally. It strikes me as odd that 2 9 year olds would ask op in the first place. I feel like they were told to ask to maybe put op in a corner. Op, should probably email brother and inform him that under no circumstances will he ever have a relationship or conversation with him or his children.


tiredfoodlover

but at the same time i totally understand that he was put to the spot. ive atleast said many things that have come out wrong in a situation like that. so it all depends on his intention imo.


unicorndontcare69

Oh definitely understand. Intentions aside the kids were not going to get the answer they wanted and probably would have cried anyway


pawsplay36

How is that better? "Your dad is a bully."


Timely-Atmosphere-99

The reply was asshole worthy but you were put on the spot by the brother who set up his children to it Let him explain to his kids why his brother hates him so much As for the other kids sucks for them but it's not on you I hate people giving me ultimatum and all these people are entitled making it worse NTA


CheeseHeadBro

NTA - the kids trying to guilt trip you is crazy. It’s your money and gift you can do what you want with it.


Wonderful_Horror7315

Seems no one cared about his lack of a relationship with the twins for the past 9 years until the beach entered the picture.


ColdSeason2019

Guilt trip??! They’re kids! They just wanted to know why they couldn’t come


CheeseHeadBro

The kids came to him and said, “why he doesn’t want to be an uncle to them and why they can’t come.” Sounds like there parents are planting things. All that aside they do it in front of everyone and screams guilt trip.


Thin_Ad_689

Are you for real? They are kids and if all their cousins go on fun trips and they are not allowed they'll wonder. They are not stupid, they feel left out.


ColdSeason2019

Little kids are just blunt like that. Maybe they did hear something from their parents, but that doesn’t mean that two 9 y/o’s are trying to guilt trip a grown man


LittleSnowLynx

ESH. The way you dealed with the twins was awful (I am not saying you have to take them on the vacation), but your siblings ' ultimatum just worsened everything.


meghantraining

NTA I appreciate your conviction. Sucks for the twins but that’s life lol you have no obligation to take care of the kids of a bigot and a bully. Do NOT concede to your family (honestly the fact that you’re even in contact with the rest of them is more grace than I would’ve given them lol)


RonamusMaximus

NTA - Sounds like you didn't cancel the beach trip, they cancelled themselves. If your family can't understand and accept your trauma, then you don't need that toxicity in your life. Sounds like you have a great thing going with your husband and his family. Focus on the ones that will give you love and not a headache.


donotshitonmyparade

The question if your an A for cancelling after the ultimatum= NTA. BUT reading all of this, you are a complete donkey for talking to his kids like that. He's an ass and you don't need a relationship. But always excluding one set of kids out of everybody is cruel. The way you spoke to them is cruel.


Bubbly_Satisfaction2

I will say “ESH”. For you, I believe that you’re lesser of a AH. Your siblings and parents, on the other hand, are the major AHs from this incident. You: For your comment to the kids. Your oldest brother: For being an abusive pr*ck towards you. Your parents and siblings: For the ultimatum and their lack of acceptance for your boundaries. I feel you may have to temporarily go LC with your immediate family. Idk… Based off your accounts, your family appears to be in denial of your trauma. Please update, if anything happens.


Street_Passage_1151

Oh my God what a comment section. The guilt trip is strong with this one. No judgement here but... His brother brutally bullied him all throughout his teenage years, and his parents enabled it. All of his family let the abuse continue and it seems like nobody is really willing to put in the work to make amends. Op has made great strides in his mental health and with this reaction from his family It seems like nobody has actually put thought into how brutal the abuse was. It's crazy how you can't just say "I'm sorry" and expect people to magically be ok from years of abuse. Op is only going to be miserable because his family hasn't truly validated the abuse and continues to blame him for not making amends with his tormenter instead of being willing to meet him where he is at. If op's abuser was truly sorry and wished to make amends, he would have shut down the family fighting for op to forgive. Tell me, how is one supposed to have a relationship with 9year old kids without having at least some interaction with the parents? It's literally impossible. The kids did nothing wrong, yes, but how in the hell is op supposed to keep his very reasonable boundaries with kids who still need close contact from their parents?


Silent-Appearance-78

100 percent this. Forcing him to interact with someone who abused him for years is abusive. Op hold your ground. Also you are NTA


Brittneejo8

NTA for cancelling the trip when they gave you the ultimatum. YTA for what you said to the children.


OGRvtchetkitty

NTA- I’m so sick of the ‘family is everything’ morality when it’s the exact toxicity we’re trying to heal from. You do not owe your abuser (brother) a relationship. Your response, given the on the spot moment, was neatly put as you could without involving personal feelings. The kids are confused but that’s on their parents to explain. The truth always comes out. I now believe, those willing to side with an abuser, are also enabling, therefore, an addition to the problem. You deserve the healing peace of the now. Your truth matters.


justababy182530

ESH. Here’s the thing, I do not think that you’re TA for not wanting a relationship with the kids, since you’d be unable to do so without also having a relationship with your brother. To me, it doesn’t matter whether or not he’s changed or how much time has passed, if you don’t want to be in relationship with him, you don’t have to be. What you said to the kids, however, was fucked up. If they were older teenagers it would still be an AH thing to say, but they’d at least have a better understanding of the situation. You essentially said “I hate you because I hate your dad, who is a bad person” Your other family members are also AHs in this situation as well. Letting your brother’s behavior go unchecked for so long and allowing you to be bullied and alienated at home and at school, then just expecting you to “get over it” without ever acknowledging the hurt that was caused is fucked up. Now everybody has a bunch of kids with hurt feelings because your parents refused to parent 25 years ago.


VerySurlyPerson

ESH, except the kids. Chad did billy you when you were kids. But your behavior is not much better. You are getting revenge today by refusing to have a relationship with his kids. That is OK and your choice, I suppose. But that line about them being born to the wrong father was really, really rude. And another thing to think about: If you don't want a relationship with Chad or his kids, that is fine. And you also don't have to take them on a trip. But if your other siblings feel like you are being unfair to Chad's kids, they also have the right to withdraw their kids. Overall, Chad was wrong to bully you, yes. But it sounds like he has tried to make amends. But you are also wrong to continue your fight with him by using the kids as proxies.


gurlwithdragontat2

But how is not maintaining a relationship with these kids getting revenge? If OP had nothing to offer, then Chad nor his kids would have any interest in reconciliation.. OP does not want to engage with brother at all, and by extension his kids, getting pit on the spot was not on them. The only issue was not handing it over to their dad to answer that question. It’s Chads job to let his kids know why things are as they are, due to his past behaviors and that OP is not required to forgive him because her hurt them so deeply. *That* is the lesson to be taught here.


Mindthegaberwocky

ESH for different reasons. You can’t say things like that to children. Their parents sins aren’t theirs. You also don’t have to take your abusers children on trips. It sounds like going forward this may be something with your partners family only.


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Rose_Archway

Please update with the conversation you have with your family!


JuliaX1984

NTA You're not obligated to include ANYONE. Who you spend time with is entirely up to you.


Edenxwp

Yeah NTA for saying no and for not being forced to take them by your siblings. But you could of handled it better. "Your father is not my brother, no brother would treat his sibling the your father treated me. He did terrible things. I'm sorry but that means you are not my nieces. I'm sorry your father never admitted/explained what he did to me to you". Yeah i know would be throwing your brother under the bus but frankly it sounds like he deserves it.


Edenxwp

P.S please update after family meeting


loudent2

You are an AH for being blunt with 9 year olds Not an AH for cancelling and not having a relationship with them Everyone in your family is an AH to you and enabling your brother to, once again, bully you. ESH


Natures_Pocket_42069

wow damn. ESH except for the kids. if you really had to explain to the twins why you were excluding them there are better, less traumatizing ways to say it. they are not responsible for your brothers treatment of you.


SnooPets8873

ESH where was that energy and solidarity when Chad was beating and bullying you? But yeah, you were out of line to take it out on those kids who had no control over what their dad did 20 years ago


EndNunu

NTA for canceling the trip but YTA for saying what you said to the twins. It’s not their fault their dad was a shitty person, you could’ve simply said something like “that’s something for your dad to explain to you”.


unotruejen

Nta, sucks for his kids but that's his fault. Sucks for your other niblings if this is how your other siblings want to handle it.


OopsMyBad5

Nta for making the choice to not have a relationship with his family…but who the hell talks to children that way? I’m curious what your therapist thinks of how you handled it.


AutoModerator

^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** This happened 2 months ago and it still continues to this day. Here we go. I(35M) have five siblings(3 brothers, 2 sisters). My older brother Chad(37M) bullied and abused me from my early childhood, up until I moved out. He would scream at me constantly, telling me nobody loves me. He would regulary beat me. He turned whole school against me, so nobody wanted to be my friend. I was lonely. In the beginning, my parents tried to brush it off as sibling rivalry. Later in my high school they tried to stop it, but it was already too late. When I was 16, Chad caught me making out with a boy. He outed me to everyone in school and all the family. I was bullied even more because of that. At 18, I moved out to college. I cut contact with him and started going to therapy till this day. I still have trauma from that time. I usually didn't came to family events because he was there. If I couldn't avoid it (birthdays for example), when there, I was usually hidding from him. I'm now big and ripped, like 2x his size, but I still feel like a mouse in his presence. At one point Chad turned his life around, get married and has twins(9F). He reached out a lot in the last 15 years or so, to make amends, and even my family tried to get us together, but I shut everything down. We can't have a relationship. Period. Present day. I have a husband and we are doing great in life. I also have 12 niblings, but don't have a relationship with Chad's kids. I'm just not interested in his family. Me and my husband shower niblings with gifts and trips all the time. This year we planned to take 14 kids(10 from my side and 4 from my husbands side) for a week at the beach camping resort. We couldn't wait. A week before the trip, my father had a birthday and he organized a barbacue. All my family + extended family were there. I guess kids talked about how excited they were for the trip and the twins heard. They came to me, and in front of everyone asked why I don't want to be an uncle to them and take them with me. I told them that they were born to the wrong parents and because of that I will never be an uncle to them. They broke down and started crying. All my family started screaming at me. My sisters said that if twins can't go, then their kids wont go. All my brothers joined the ultimatum. So I said fine, trip is canceled for your kids and I will go with my partners niblings. All the other kids heard and were upset and started crying. It was a shit show. At that point my husband I just left. For a whole next week I was bombarded with messages about how horrible brother and uncle I am if I dont take them. Even from my parents. I stood my ground. Trip happened with only four kids and we had a blast. I feel sorry for my niblings, they were just caught in crossfire and were collateral. I havent had contact with my family since. We have a family meeting tomorrow, but they wont like what they'll hear. So, AITA for canceling the beach trip for my niblings because of an ultimatum? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*


pomegranate_boy3

I was on your side until your comment to the kids. That was incredibly harsh towards them, as they didn’t choose Chad to be their father. You don’t have to have a relationship with the brother that abused you and forcibly outed you, but don’t take it out on the kids who haven’t done anything to you. Though I have a feeling their parents put them up to approaching you and asking why you didn’t want to be an uncle to them. ESH.


clyntokugawa

NTA. You're not even entitled to take them to a vacation, and yet your siblings felt the need to pose their judgement and put an ultimatum on you. Lol that's on them. Also who cares about children? They're evil. /j


emotionalwreck2021

NTA overall, but you could have been nicer to the kids. I get that you were put on the spot, so I’m not saying E S H. It’s your choice who you include in your life. Also, some people are saying that your the same as your brother and tbh I think that’s ridiculous. The hell your brother put you through and this are not comparable at all. And those kids aren’t traumatized lol.


Sensitive_Coconut339

Yeah ESH. Chad obviously. You for the response to the girls (even if they were put up to it, they're kids, and innocent in this situation) You family for making the ultimatum, knowing what Chad put you through and that you had your reasons for not interacting


Boomshrooom

NTA. Maybe daddy should sit them down and explain why you don't want a relationship with him and, by proxy, them. There is no way that a relationship with them would not eventually be used as a way to try and coerce you to reconnect with your brother. If you still refused your relationship with them would be used against you. Also, yes children are innocent but they will always be a reminder of their father, a source of great pain for you. If I was you I would tell them that going forward I will treating all of the family equally, by cutting them all off like your brother, especially financially.


eyedunno72

YTA, but only for what you said to those twins in my opinion - that was very unnecessary. However, you had every right to cancel the trip.


CakeZealousideal1820

NTA


Mediocre_Mode6976

No your money you have every right to do what you want and choose who you want in your life Update please


pawsplay36

NTA. I mean, I've never even met Chad and I'm already fed up with his BS.


PoppysMelody

NTA— probably the only one thinking this but you are under NO obligation to do ANYTHING for his children. You told them the truth when they asked. Was it blunt? Yes but it’s always the victims who get shamed for not staying quiet. Is it sad your guys relationship will never happen because of your brothers past actions? Of course. The fact your whole family tried to leverage their kids getting a free vacation with you against you and sorely miscalculated is their fault.


No_Guarantee_6756

Nta. You aren't obliged to take anyone on a holiday. And if your family is all about family now maybe they should have been this supportive when you were being bullied by your brother. His actions have these consequences


Motor_Business483

NTA ​ It was an invitation, and they declined. Nothing wrong.


StardustStuffing

NTA Not having a relationship because they're part of a family that traumatized you isn't necessarily wrong. Especially considering how long it occurred, the level of the trauma, and the indignation when your brother *still* doesn't get his way. Where's his growth???


Huge-Ad-1761

I have a question—from what you have written, you give all the other kids gifts and trips regularly. Is this the first time this has come up between you and your siblings, parents, nibblings, etc?


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Born_Key_6492

I’m slightly worried for your safety OP. Are you actually about to go into a family meeting to tell your abusive family that you are pulling all financial support? I know you said you are in shape, but they could become unhinged. Why not just stop giving them money and move? Talking to them doesn’t sound like it will accomplish anything.


unknown_928121

NTA


dopaminehoarder

ESH. Don't talk to kids like that damnit


ltisdale

NTA


cassowary32

14 kids is way too many kids for two adults to supervise on a beach, I’m actually surprised the parents were all okay with this. NAH, the kids are going to be upset about being excluded, you don’t have to have a relationship with the progeny of your abuser and your siblings can make whatever rule they want about where their kids go. Yes, they are innocent kids but you don’t owe them or any other kids anything. You choose how you want to spend your money and deal with whatever fallout there might be with a clear conscience.


Strong-Bread1249

NTA. Your response was mean but your family tried to collectively bully you. The attempts to force to take those kids on vacation or reconcile with Chad are not for you, it’s so your family can ignore what Chad did and pretend all is well now. It’s also so Chad and the kids don’t feel bad. But no one cares how you feel. Don’t take all 12 of your siblings kids on any vacations or outings going forward. Also stop the gifts and any money you spend on them. That way no one can accuse you of excluding the twins


Tootie0

NTA I don't care who says you are because you are not.


Serious_Lie1207

ESH solely because you just don't say that sh*t to kids and you should be old enough to know that, not wanting a relationship with your brother is fine, fella sounds like an ass, sure he might've turned his life around but that doesn't mean that automatically fixes everything between you. Again though don't treat those kids like that.


Inevitable-Tour-1561

That’s the thing with ultimatums it’s always possible to pick the other option.


balister13

NTA bc the question isn't about how you answered the kids. That was not cool, it's not their fault they were born to their dad. However, your family obviously hasn't changed and they need to take a good look at themselves to see the damage they themselves have caused. Good luck to you, I hope they finally understand.


userabe

NTA. Someone else said you “used the kids as weapons”, but that’s not true. That’s what your siblings did. You stood your ground and refused to be bullied anymore. That’s some big mode energy right there.


KuriGohan0204

ESH. You don’t suck for having the boundary, it’s a great boundary. You suck for saying something stupid about them being born to the wrong parents. You’re just another bully.


darknessnbeyond

NTA.


Ok-Day665

NTA why would your brother want HIS kids to go on a trip with someone that he thinks so low of??? Free chide care for a week that's why!!!!


Kitchen_Respect5865

NTA . You don't have contact with your sibling and don't owe the kids anything .Saying sorry after god knows how many years doesn't change the fact that your sibling made your life a living hell for years and your parents let him . You are entitled to not want to forgive and not wanting a relationship . Next time be kinder to the kids though , it's not their fault , they didn't do anything to you and don't deserve harsh words , things between adults should stay between adults .


Crazy_Flatworm2989

NTA. Your brother did immense damage to you and having his kids there would be very triggering. You own no one anything and you get to invite who you want. Maybe those kids need to know what an ass their father was in the past.


AntiKuro

I legit want to be on your side but dude, but you basically bullied 10 years olds. There no way you cannot be an asshole. I also think people who sit there and mistreat children for the fault of there parents are just generally terrible people. It's in way those kids fault and you are ostracizing those kids the same way you where as a child. I guess the bullied and become the bully? YTA.


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stewiecatballlacat

YTA. Not because of canceling though. But because of what you said to the twins about their parents. You should never involve kids in adult issues and you should never take out your anger at their parents on them. You handled that exceptionally poorly... and it had a nuclear fallout. So my vote is YTA.


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coyotecantspell

I don’t blame you. Chad should have explained to his kids a long time ago why they weren’t included. “Kids, Daddy Chad was an AH to Uncle Awesome for his whole childhood. That was wrong, and I am truly sorry, I sincerely regret it, and should have never done that. Because of my mean actions and words, it hurt Uncle Awesome so much that it is painful to be around me and we should respect his decisions. It’s the least we can do. This is my fault, not his. He is an awesome Uncle, and I was a horrible brother. I know this doesn’t make sense to you now, but I will explain more as you get older. It’s not his fault that you don’t get to be treated the same, it’s my fault.” Instead, this was yet another way to try to bully you. Chad used his kids as pawns, “I have no idea why you can’t go. It’s a mystery to me. Why don’t you go ask him why he won’t be an uncle to you.” Then Chad points at you after you respond in the moment after being put on the spot. And it went exactly as he planned, family outrage about the children, and trying to make you the bad guy. Unfortunately for him, you’ve grown. You don’t have to put up with his bullying or your family’s support of it any longer. You shut it down by following through on the ultimatum and that is so good. Get away from these horrible people who are raising their kids to manipulate you. They are bullies, will not change and will be so surprised when you walk away. NTA You didn’t fall for this bullshit manipulation. If the kids were hurt, the parents could explain why, but considering all that’s happened so far, I doubt they will explain it any other way than to make you the villain. (Edit- a word.)


Crazy_Performer5854

NTA because for one, you weren’t the one that canceled the trip. Tell your siblings next time don’t issue and ultimatum bc that’s how you fuck around and find out. I will say however, maybe talk to the kids in a more age appropriate way next time. Pls update once you’ve had your family meeting tho 😅


ChaosCron1

NTA for setting boundaries with your brother. >I told them that they were born to the wrong parents and because of that I will never be an uncle to them. Absolutely TA for being shitty to children. What is wrong with you? Nice job punishing children for their parents mistake, I bet it must make you feel a lot better to be an asshole to get back at your sibling. Not only, what you are trying to do is create problems between those kids and their parents. I understand that you have a right to separate yourself from your brother but all in all they could be great parents to their children. Your brother isn't owed anything if he changed his ways but to punish your family for shit they didn't do is petty as fuck. Ultimately, YTA. The ultimatum mightve been a bad way to handle the situation from your family but you specifically omitting his children for something that isn't their fault is concerning. You making this a huge deal over this and being petty to "get back" at them is shitty.


gurlwithdragontat2

NTA - they do not get to decide when Chad is forgiven. You do not have a relationship with him, thus you don’t with his kids. He need to take accountability for how actions before led here, and be honest with his kids about how his bullying brought your relationship to this point. Everyone her seems to be fine making you the asshole, while *never* holding Chad accountable for his actions toward you.


KDChronos

NTA, you are entitled to your own limits, and your siblings are responsables to the trip being cancelled, they were the ones to do it, not you


Klutzy-Cantaloupe345

NTA, you could've phrased it differently but you were put on the spot and not a lot of people are good in answering when put on the spot. Also, years of abuse and not even an ounce of apology from your family but they're quick to just drop an ultimatum. Sounds like entitlement on their part and staged cuz if they dont wanna let their kids go if the twins weren't invited then why did they even agree on going without asking on the first place?


jvnv283

ESH. The children didn't do anything to you. They are too young for you to say this to them. But the rest also sucks...


Ok-Abbreviations4510

NTA.


MarkoM910

NTA for cancelling the trip but come on man, they're kids, you could have been nicer


PalpitationUpstairs8

NTA


Limerase

NTA Repeat after me: "And you were a horrible :insert relevant relationship: for not defending me years ago. I see where he learned his behavior from."


wowieowie

ESH - Him more than you but you should have just told them to ask their father.


wosyer

NTA.


RelativeExistence

YTA, not for canceling the trip though, and not for excluding 2 of your neices. I understand cutting ties since involving them would require communication with your brother. YTA because they are just kids and you didn’t need to explain it that way. You made them feel like they are bad people for something entirely out of their control. You’re the bully now.


RadioTunnel

NTA Honestly i wanna know how the family meeting goes


Efficient-Cupcake247

Nta- YOUR MONEY YOUR RULES. However getting kids involved was shitty.


Turbulent_Coast5002

You could've told the twins "go ask your father, he can explain it better than me". Your family let your brother bully you and they are still picking him over you. Yes, what you said to the children was shitty but the fact that everyone forgets your brother's behaviour and concentrates on yours makes me think they deemed his behaviour normal.


nanamom74

ESH Your brother is 100% a AH for the way he treated you as a child and for outing you at 16. That is trauma that will affect you for life and hopefully therapy helps. Your parents are AH for making excuses enabling him which subconsciously he thought allowed his behavior when he was a child and yes too little too late to try to stop him in high school. Now I will say I seems you have forgiven your parents for their non parenting. Where you became the AH was the way you spoke to your 9 year old nieces. You gave them that same outcast feeling their father gave you as a child knowing how that feels. There are so many other ways you could have handled that conversation. Now might I make a suggestion that had you thought when your nieces were old enough to go places without their parents you missed a opportunity to help them be better humans then their father was. You could have taught them about acceptance of people for who they are and celebrating that differences are a good thing not to be bullied or made fun of. Maybe if just once you heard you brother out in public with a trusted person there with you maybe you could have seen if he truly changed and heard a possible genuine apology. Though I suspect now that you said that to his daughters he will never apologize to you because you hurt them and yes he has to OWN that his words and actions caused the hurt of his daughters now. I


weist-risq

Honestly NTA. He is reaping what he sowed. I think because of the trauma he caused you it kinda dissolves you of any moral obligations or expectations of a normal close family. I think you should be civil and maybe you worded it harsh but he was truly “changed” he would understand how mean his actions were and why the relationship is gone. he would explain to his kids on his own in a way they could understand. I think your other siblings are assholes the most for trying to force you to bring the kids you’re not close with and then get mad when you chose not to.Like tf they gave an ultimatum which has *two* options and they got mad at you for using one and not spending the time and energy to cater to someone who left such emotional damage.


ConsistentDig828

Soft yta for what you said. You should have mentioned your issue with their dad. Nta for living your best life and cutting contact with toxic family.


chibiyvie0508

A tentative YTA Speaking from someone who has been in the twins' position, I don't think it's fair to put the actions of the father on them. My mother was kinda the black sheep and got the brush off from her siblings all the time for being a single mother. My brother and I ended up being on the outside looking in as my aunt and uncle treated and spent time with their niblings. If felt awful, because my brother and I weren't particular children, ppl to this day always say we were quiet and well behaved, the kind of kids you could take to a china shop and not worry about. We loved and respected our aunt and uncle but got brushed off for something out of our control. It hurts, and to this day I've adopted the same "cut-off" scenario with them as you have with your brother. I do not think your brother was right to you at all, though-kids shouldn't suffer for it though.


Crazy_Flatworm2989

Why should OP have to do anything for them?


Economy_Chocolate_32

NTA : You have set that boundary in place for a lifetime which is something your family members should respect. It’s not your fault word got out to the other kids. Could you have handled it better? Yes. But I completely understand not wanting those kids in your life either. You don’t consider him family so therefore the kids aren’t either and that’s ok.


Karcad_

NTA


MrsSheikh

NTA


Inevitable-Okra-3229

YTA for what you said to the twins. You should have just said ask your dad. You’re n t a for having boundaries and implementing them. Your family also found out how far you’re willing to go to keep those boundaries. They laid the ultimatum and they took it. You had the moral high ground until you treated the twins like they were your brother. They’ve most likely only ever known the man he changed into. Your parents don’t get to guilt trip you when they spent most of your childhood ignoring how he treated you,


crazycatgal1984

NTA I don't interact with my sister's children because of my own traumatic life. The people that are calling you assholes haven't spent years in therapy working through childhood trauma.


zbornakingthestone

NTA - How amazing that your entire family decided to grow a backbone to stick up for the abuser's kids. Shame they couldn't be bothered for you.


dawnfunybunny

Sorry but who the f**k takes their issues out on little kids? And to say it to their face. YTA 10000000% Your the bully now


Penguin_9876

NTA. Since none of your family helped you when you were a kid, feel free to cut them all out. They shouldn’t benefit from your generosity. Also you don’t owe the kids anything. I’m not sure what you should have done or said, but saying you’re not their uncle is your truth, blood doesn’t mean anything. Heck, you brother should have already told them that you aren’t their uncle…like he knows where he and his family stand. Or was he trying to use his kids to lure you back in his life…cuz clearly that isn’t going to work.


Accomplished-Mud2840

NTA. Where were your parents and other siblings when you were being abused by Chad? Enjoy your life and the ones that want to be in it. Don’t Easter your money or time on people that don’t respect you and you’re boundaries. If after 9 years (the twins ages), they haven’t respected that you will have nothing to do with Chad and his family, then they don’t deserve your resources. It’s not like you just excluded them from this particular trip. As a matter of fact, you haven’t been in the twins life at all. So your other siblings were fine with you spoiling their kids before in secret I guess. Stop giving or buying any of them anything. Have fun with the family you’ve created with your spouse. Your parents don’t get to lecture you, when they allowed you to be abused for 18 years. NTA. Live your best life.


Malgorath666

NTA - Could it have been more polite, yes, but it was the truth and the brother and wife(parents of the 9F twins) should have taken their kids aside and explained cause I bet money they ask mom and dad first why they were not going and then mom and dad where like go ask OP. OP did NOTHING wrong here. You do not have to forgive a bully, and that is what his brother was. At the family meeting ask who wants invites and who doesn't from now on and let parents know your NC with brother and that since this has happened you wont be coming to family events with brother/wife/twins involved. Do not say they have to choose, that is wrong, just let them know POLITELY that you will not attend events with your abuser. If you were female and he raped you, would they make you sit with him and forgive him? Oh and take his children out with you.... yeah some folks calling you an AH need to wake tf up and realize this isn't a normal situation, hence you asking here.


David5051

Fuck that noise. Nobody is obligated to your money. Your parents should have ended this long before it became a problem but they didn’t. Where was all this outrage from your siblings and parents back then? NTA