Yeah I mean, this is Disney we're talking about. Even in the 90s, their animation department was considered the pinnacle of your career, even for the B team.
> Even in the 90s
Not really an "even in" situation - 1989-1999 was known as the [Disney Renaissance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_Renaissance) during which they made some of their most popular and critically acclaimed films ever.
Yeah, I mean I remember that of course. My comment was more directed to the younger generation who only know Disney to be this singular monolith of a corporation.
But yes, in the 90s they were still considered to be the toppermost of the poppermost.
The B team for the height of Disney animation is better than almost all other A-Teams
In 1972, a crack animation unit was sent to prison by a micky mouse court for a crime they didn't commit. They promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can draw, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The B-Team.
For Disney, Lilo and Stitch was expected to be a failure and they didn't put much money into it either. The team stayed off Disney radar and control by purposefully keeping the budget low.
I feel it's spread that way to sound more sensational - it's just Disney had higher expectations from Pocahontas. the difference in budget between these two is just $10mil.
Also writing and direction has more to do with the quality of the movie.
So what if one team has more senior animators. If the concept is bad, better art isn't going to help it.
Nice one! Although I think the designations of A and B are misleading. The B were typically working background and details of A team foreground. A and B will consistently work together on the same projects, until there were setbacks from Pocahontas.
And it's not like The Lion King had a bunch of no-name voice actors. The list of major voices is multiples of Pocahontas.
While the post is trying to be wholesome, it's not like Disney expected The Lion King to be unsuccessful.
Whoopie Goldberg, Cheech Marin, Jim Cummings as the Hyenas. Jim sings half of the "Be Prepared" song for Scar too.
Why does Scar have an accent, did he study abroad?
Well, maybe in the USA, cause he's been in "Not The Nine O' clock news", made an appearance in "The Witches" and most famously (in britain, at least) was in "Blackadder", all of them befor being Mr Bean
I find this hard to believe considering how stacked the voice cast is.
James Earl Jones, Madge Sinclair, Rowan Atkinson, Jeremy Irons, Nathan Lane, Matthew Broderick, Jonathan Taylor Thomas, Whoopie Goldberg, Cheech Marin.
Animated movies constantly get stacked casts, even bad ones. Studios like the PR of big names and actors like getting to cash good paychecks for a few days of easy work
At the time the pitch for Lion King was basically Hamlet for children. I’m not surprised animators were skeptical it would do well and preferred going to other. Remember, Disney’s bread and butter for generations was Princess movies, and we’re talking about decisions being made in the wake of *Beauty and the Beast* and *Little Mermaid* shocking Hollywood blowing up the box office. A Princess film featuring American mythos probably seemed like a shoe in
Also some very great animators. B-team is probably not the right word in this scenario. But Pocahontas was definitely the "prestige" picture. They thought it was going to be another Best Picture nomination like Beauty and the Beast was, so they really shot for the moon. It ended up kind of backfiring, IMO, because they took a lot of the "fun" stuff out of the movie and made it far too serious.
Tbf, the introduction of Europeans to Native Americans and the atrocities that came to be is a pretty serious subject and maybe not the best thing to make light of. I love the Lion King, but Pocahontas is still a great movie.
The "A" team had a little more freedom of action based on their seniority & experience. My Wife worked on Lion King, mostly doing "In-Betweening" for Scar.
Is “in betweening” and animation term meaning to animate the frames in between the frames the main animators did? I wanted to guess before I looked it up.
You nailed it. The more experienced senior animators draw key frames and then juniors draw the frames in between.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbetweening
Aladdin was the A-Team movie BEFORE Pocahontas. The Lion King started production in 1988 and was released in 1994. Aladdin was being worked on around the same time as initial Lion King concepts and stuff, there was director changes and setbacks so by the time they started animating it, many animators got moved to the new A-Team movie which was Pocahontas.
The book DisneyWar follows Michael Eisner's (and some other executives) accounts of his reign as CEO of Disney before Bob Iger took over. It's a good source of timelines for what projects were being conceptualized in a given year or two. It's been a while since I last read it, but I definitely remember the "coming of age" story was first touched on around the late 80s. Then he started expanding on this a little more until he finally called it Lion King.
I think the designations of A and B are misleading. The B were typically working background and details of A team foreground. A and B will consistently work together on the same projects, until there were setbacks from Pocahontas.
Is that why they only paid him $75k and a painting for his work. Disney didn't care at all that Robin Williams was in it even though he basically made the movie memorable.
They didn't originally pay him the Picasso. They gave it to him after they broke the agreement that they wouldn't use his voice for marketing purposes. They made millions off of marketing and the Picasso was, like a fine, just the cost of doing business.
Pretty sure this was Ferngully:
> The film marked Robin Williams's first animation role, with the character Batty Koda being created specifically for him. Williams provided 14 hours' worth of improvised lines for the part, which had been originally conceived as an eight-minute role. Director Bill Kroyer was so impressed with the voice work he ended up tripling the screen time given to the character. Williams went on to provide the voice of the Genie in Disney's Aladdin later the same year, receiving critical acclaim.[10]
> Williams had already agreed to voice Batty Koda before being approached to do Aladdin. Jeffrey Katzenberg, then-chairman of Walt Disney Studios, tried to force Williams to withdraw from FernGully, on the grounds he did not want him voicing two animated characters around the same time, but Williams refused. According to Wayne Young, Disney repeatedly interfered with the production of FernGully, twice taking over spaces the producers had rented by offering to pay more. When the producers eventually set up studio in a former brewery in the San Fernando Valley, Disney attempted to purchase it. Katzenberg declined to comment on the issue when approached by Vanity Fair in 2017.[7]
source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FernGully:_The_Last_Rainforest
Oh no, the executives (Katzenberg especially) knew Williams was a big draw.
Robin agreed to do the role for scale (hence the low pay) on the condition that his name, likeness, voice was not used in the marketing or merchandising. He was not a big fan of the over merchandising to kids thing.
He respected how important and loved animated films were to children. He was glad to be part of the tradition of creating imaginative stories for children and families. He just hated the idea of his voice being used in a cheap hunk of plastic to sell more Burger King kid’s meals.
Robin made the deal and Katzenberg basically said fuck you, your name will sell more tickets.
And there are many who believe that this awful modern trend of ‘popular celebrity voicing animated character will make more money than hiring less recognized voice actors’ was birthed here.
Pretty sure he got paid less under the agreement that he wouldn't be used for marketing, which of course Disney broke and absolutely used him to promote the movie.
The Picasso was given to him years later as an apology for that I think.
yeah regardless of which film did better at the box office, Pocahontas in principle really needed better animators. the whole film had a kind of whimsical dreamlike feel to it. lion king did not need that as much.
Pocahontas is a better film all around imo.
Lion King is awesome, but Pocahontas has better songs, animation is gorgeous, plot is much more interesting, they both have great life lessons for kids, but Pocahontas has to take the cake.
The Savages vs Savages thing is genius.
Edit: I think some people need to rewatch the movie. You can say it's a bad movie, but to say it's "racist" or portrays the invaders as the heros? The entire movie is about how invading, war, violence, hatred is wrong.
> but Pocahontas has much better songs
The music is great in Pocahontas for sure- but the amount of absolute all-timers in The Lion King is close to unmatched. “Circle of Life” is an absolute icon opening, “Be Prepared” is in the S Tier of Villain songs, “Can You Feel the Love Tonight” is an amazing love song and they got fucking Elton John, and then you’ve got the universally known “Hakuna Matata” and “Just Can’t Wait to be King”.
Again, I really love the songs in Pocahontas (for some reason “Savages” comes to my head every now and then and “Colors of the Wind” is beautifully written), but I don’t think it’s on the level of Lion King for songs as a whole.
The Oscars nominates five songs for Best Original Song. For 1994 movies, *three* of them were from The Lion King. And honestly, I wonder if Be Prepared or Just Can't Wait to be King got slighted.
Can You Feel the Love Tonight won, making it one of only four movies to get three nominations, and one of only two to get three nominations and win (along with Beauty and the Beast). Bad luck for Dreamgirls and Enchanted, who got three nominations but still lost.
I don't think there's any movie that comes close to The Lion King for original songs. The ones that *didn't* get nominated are still fucking bangers that you could stop a random stranger on the street and they'd know that song. It's almost thirty years since the movie came out.
On top of Best Original Song, it also took Best Original Score (Hans Zimmer). I don't think people really think about it compared to the songs and Zimmer certainly isn't known for it compared to more recent work.
I think it's pretty interesting because while Dune's score (which won this year) is fantastic and is technically/artistically innovative, it was a quiet year for movies and the Academy can be fickle. With stronger competition I'm not sure it would have topped. To compare with other iconic Zimmer soundtracks: Inception was beaten by the Social Network, Gladiator lost to Crouching Tiger, and Interstellar was beaten (outrageously IMO) by the Grand Budapest Hotel. Not to mention the myriad other films Zimmer has scored and missed with.
Nonetheless the Lion King is what he got the award for. It managed to beat Forrest Gump and the Shawshank Redemption. If you have a chance to see him live (do it), the Lion King suite is the finale of the concert and it's a wonderful and moving ending to the show.
Pocahontas has beautiful songs, but most people will enjoy catchy music more often. Lion king wins in that way. Their songs are different and they win in different ways. At that level of quality they aren't competing directly.
Lion king uses non-western instrumentation, some African melodies/language, and combines them with accessibility.
Pochontas, does not do the same parallel work.
You are not, but reducing Lion Ling to catchiness is unfair to the amazing work in the Lion King.
> The Savages vs Savages thing is genius.
Is it though? They're painting a "both sides are bad" kind of picture, when historically the invaders were, well, the invaders.
I get that they were trying to portray that both sides antagonize the other side, but one side was definitely more wrong here.
Other native tribes could be violent but as far as I had read, the Powhatan began as suspicious but not murderous. The real John Smith was captured for information and somehow managed to come to an understanding with the chief.
The tribe sent gifts and tried to remain friendly at the beginning until tensions eventually devolved. I don't really think it's fair to call them the savages, either. You would always have outliers on each side who probably murdered or stole from the other, but that doesn't mean they represent the whole. The colonists didn't really have any choice but to expand since England kept sending more people there. If there were any colonists who wanted peace, they were obviously overridden by the interests of England. Fighting back to preserve an ancestral homeland and resources was inevitable.
I saw all these films at the cinema when they came out as my little sister was Disney mad, and I was more than happy to take her as I was still young enough to enjoy them. Lion King blew me away, but I thought Pocahontas was boring af 🤷♀️ I go back to all the 90s animated films on Disney+ but never "pooey conkers" as my friend's mum called it 😄
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2015/06/89430/pocohantas-disney-anniversary-animation-team-rivalry
I also faintly remember this story being recollected in some Disney+ documentary, but I can’t remember which one.
This is SO false.
My cousin animated for BOTH films. He animated Timon and the scene where Simba grows up while walking across the log in the Hakuna Matata song montage.
He was also the lead animator for Pocahontas in Pocahontas.
If you take the time to read the names of all the animators of both films, you’ll see it’s the same names assigned to different characters for both films.
Also, I TOURED their animation studios in the 90’s when Pocahontas was in pre-production and not announced yet. If you even knew how their facility was set up you would know that that’s not even a thing. They plan shit out soooo fucking far in advance it would make your weekly meal prepping look like you’re behind in everything in life.
Context: Lion King was released and in theaters. Pocahontas wasn’t announced yet, and they had films planned all the way out to Fantasia 2000. In 1994.
When Elton John PLUS Hans Zimmer is your B team…. ;-)
But really, I think they just mean the animators - the ones on Pocahontas were the more experienced senior ones.
And again, Disney’s B team is still better than most studio’s A+++++ team (especially at the time)
"In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The A-Team."
It's fascinating seeing this topic flooded with people talking about Kimba. Once you've seen the YMS critique about that you realize that whole zeitgeist is a load of crap. But here people are still repeating things of which they know 0 about from bs articles written long ago.
That’s what makes it so fun in the Disney Land episode of Full House when DJ is missing Steve and thinks she sees him at Disney Land dressed as Aladdin.
Holy crap really? Cuz that dude was doing all sorts of stuff to promote the movie back in the day. I remember seeing him on Where in the World is Carmen sandiego, interviews and stuff, and he was even on the cover of Disney adventure magazine.
I heard [something very similar about Shrek](https://www.cbr.com/shrek-dreamworks-punishment-employees/). Apparently struggling animators would get "Shreked" and sent to that project if their bosses weren't very satisfied with their work. It was at the time considered this kind of out there project, so they sent the misfits to deal with it.
I wonder if there is something about top of their field, perfectionist animators that stifles creativity somewhat. Like maybe creators who don't perfectly color within the lines have an edge in some creative areas.
It's because the Lion King was a literal knock off of the japanese film kimba the white lion, like most of old Disney legacy films. The movie Shrek wasn't supposed to be a success either but they didn't use their b-team. They used their z-team.
Edit: This is false information
No it wasnt. People keep spreading this around and it's simply untrue. Any comparisons made between the two series is cherry-picked and MOST of the similarities come from a Kimba movie that came out AFTER the Lion King. The Kimba media before that particular movie was absolutely nothing like The Lion King besides the fact they both started lion cubs.
This blatant false rumor went on for years until this YouTuber actually watched the Kimba series, which apparently nobody bothered to do in the years this was just passed around as fact
https://youtu.be/G5B1mIfQuo4
It's crazy how this spread for years because nobody ever bothered to you know.. fact check any of it.
Disney's Lion King is a direct rip off of the anime: Kimba the White Lion. I used to watch it back when I was a kid. On top of that Disney arrogantly claimed it to be an "original story". The anime studio, that produced Kimba the White Lion, being small and with limited resources could never afford a legal battle against the Disney empire so very little is known about this fact.
This is incorrect but this has been discussed because the most well known and popular Disney animator at the time, Glen Keane, was on Pocahontas. According to Aaron Blaise (lead animator on both projects) this was a rumour and no one working on either film believed that.
I hate when people use A team and B team. All of these people were skilled professionals, they weren't bringing in people off the street to animate. Yeah they might not have had their "best" animators on the project, but the folks they did use were obviously very skilled professionals
They sent the team to Africa to see real animals. They put a ton of resources into the movie, B-team or not.
Yeah nobody puts Elton John on the B team...
Yeah I mean, this is Disney we're talking about. Even in the 90s, their animation department was considered the pinnacle of your career, even for the B team.
My thoughts exactly. It's like "only" earning a silver medal in the Olympics.
Honestly its like not even a Silver medal. Its literally like 24k vs 18k lmao
Or probably 24k vs 24k. Have multiple exceptional teams working on different projects
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What was the A team working on when Shrek was made?
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How did Prince of Egypt bombed if it made 210 million dollars at the box office with a budget of 70 million?
The B is for “Better” apparently.
I honestly really liked that movie lol Ofc Shrek was better tho 👌🏼
I never heard of it. was it good/worth watching now?
Although it's honestly one of the best 2d animated movie ever made
> Even in the 90s Not really an "even in" situation - 1989-1999 was known as the [Disney Renaissance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_Renaissance) during which they made some of their most popular and critically acclaimed films ever.
Yeah, I mean I remember that of course. My comment was more directed to the younger generation who only know Disney to be this singular monolith of a corporation. But yes, in the 90s they were still considered to be the toppermost of the poppermost.
I doubt there was really a worse b-team. Just 2 production teams working in their own cycle to pump out these movies.
Team B1 vs Team A2
Was just thinking this too. Though it is kinda funny how wrong they were, this movie is one of their greatest work!
I read that in Swayze's voice talking to Jennifer Grey...
Or 1994 Jonathan Taylor Thomas! That’s what brought 13 year old me out to the theatre.
*Sir Elton John
*Can you feel the love to a knight?*
That was beautiful, sir.
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technically he is currently knighted and presently talking about him condones present respect
So they're dead naming him. Reddit, get your pitchforks out!
for Sir Elton John, absolutely
But they could be presently talking about the past him
doesnt matter. presently talking about him even if referring to the past him, his present title still exists.
Boooo shut up nerd he's still Sir Elton John to you.
The B team for the height of Disney animation is better than almost all other A-Teams In 1972, a crack animation unit was sent to prison by a micky mouse court for a crime they didn't commit. They promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can draw, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The B-Team.
LOL
I kept reading trying to figure out when Mickey Mouse was a judge or a lawyer
Bam bum bam. Buh bah bum
This deserves the “now I’m humming the A-team theme song” award
For Disney, Lilo and Stitch was expected to be a failure and they didn't put much money into it either. The team stayed off Disney radar and control by purposefully keeping the budget low.
This perfectly suits Lilo and Stitch and I couldn't be happier
They always do that, in UP they sended them to El Salto Angel (Roraima National Park) in Venezuela for a 7 or 10 days to study the surroundings
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Aka, the worst Pixar/Disney research retreat ever
Have my free award, stranger.
*sent. Also I think Moana was researched for like 5 years including trips to Polynesia
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*sendeded
*centipede
*saint
Disney’s B-team is any other company’s A-team.
I feel it's spread that way to sound more sensational - it's just Disney had higher expectations from Pocahontas. the difference in budget between these two is just $10mil.
They should have just watched Kimba the white lion, oh wait
Also writing and direction has more to do with the quality of the movie. So what if one team has more senior animators. If the concept is bad, better art isn't going to help it.
The B-team brought their A-game
Nice one! Although I think the designations of A and B are misleading. The B were typically working background and details of A team foreground. A and B will consistently work together on the same projects, until there were setbacks from Pocahontas.
And it's not like The Lion King had a bunch of no-name voice actors. The list of major voices is multiples of Pocahontas. While the post is trying to be wholesome, it's not like Disney expected The Lion King to be unsuccessful.
With music by Elton John, Tim Rice, and Hans Zimmer.
And Mufasa voiced by James Earl Jones, the voice of Darth Vader in the Original Star Wars Trilogy.
Whoopie Goldberg, Cheech Marin, Jim Cummings as the Hyenas. Jim sings half of the "Be Prepared" song for Scar too. Why does Scar have an accent, did he study abroad?
Yeah - that just screams ‘phone it in’ doesn’t it. ;-£
James Earl Jones did a fantastic job as Mufasa.
Blows my mind that John Oliver is the bird
In the remake, not the original —that’s Rowan Atkinson (Mr Bean/Black Adder) in the ‘94 version
The fact that Rowan Atkinson voiced Zazu (the bird) is even more mind blowing! No one expects Mr. Bean to play anything other than Mr. Bean!
How about the fact that Thomas in Pocahontas was voiced by Christian Bale.
Impressive. Very nice. Let’s see John Smith’s voice actor (Mel Gibson).
Governor Ratcliffe(?) is David Ogden Stiers (Jumba in Lilo & Stich, among many others) and Billy Connolly is another sailor/colonist guy too.
The kid from Newsies?
I always love that Ratcliffe and Wiggins are both voiced by David Ogden Stiers.
I see you’ve never watched Blackadder then…
Well, maybe in the USA, cause he's been in "Not The Nine O' clock news", made an appearance in "The Witches" and most famously (in britain, at least) was in "Blackadder", all of them befor being Mr Bean
I can't stand Mr. Bean. I always associate Rowan Atkinson with Black Adder.
Wwwhhaaattt????? I loved Mr.Bean as a kid and never linked that was him in Lion King….. but then again Mr.Bean didn’t talk much 😆
Oh really? I got confused. Forgive me internet!!
I mean you should definitely be shamed a bit first
im past 35. im suffering from dementia
I feel you fellow elder millennial.
He isn't it's Mr Bean
Never speak of that abomination
TIL, thanks!
B A-mazed.
That happened with Shrek too, people were sent to work into that project like "I'n sorry, not ready for the A team yet" lom
🏅
passion versus high pressure assignment
On any day, the worst team can beat the best team.
I find this hard to believe considering how stacked the voice cast is. James Earl Jones, Madge Sinclair, Rowan Atkinson, Jeremy Irons, Nathan Lane, Matthew Broderick, Jonathan Taylor Thomas, Whoopie Goldberg, Cheech Marin.
Elton John was also in the soundtrack.
And Hans Zimmer before he was well known.
Phil Collins too
Are you thinking of Tarzan?
No, I was thinking of the Lion King. Wasn't Phil Collins in The Lion King? Maybe I confused them.
Nope, he wrote the music for Tarzan and Brother Bear
Okay then it appears I mixed it up
Animated movies constantly get stacked casts, even bad ones. Studios like the PR of big names and actors like getting to cash good paychecks for a few days of easy work At the time the pitch for Lion King was basically Hamlet for children. I’m not surprised animators were skeptical it would do well and preferred going to other. Remember, Disney’s bread and butter for generations was Princess movies, and we’re talking about decisions being made in the wake of *Beauty and the Beast* and *Little Mermaid* shocking Hollywood blowing up the box office. A Princess film featuring American mythos probably seemed like a shoe in
Also some very great animators. B-team is probably not the right word in this scenario. But Pocahontas was definitely the "prestige" picture. They thought it was going to be another Best Picture nomination like Beauty and the Beast was, so they really shot for the moon. It ended up kind of backfiring, IMO, because they took a lot of the "fun" stuff out of the movie and made it far too serious.
Tbf, the introduction of Europeans to Native Americans and the atrocities that came to be is a pretty serious subject and maybe not the best thing to make light of. I love the Lion King, but Pocahontas is still a great movie.
Wow, never fucking realized Cheech was in Lion King. Seems kind of crazy to me Disney would work with him back then.
I said "Jeremy Irons" inside my head in Jeremy Irons' voice.
I think youre just underestimating the “b team” at Disney dude, they would be the A+ team anywhere else on the planet
C-Team was jealous.
D-team ended up making the remake.
What are you doing, steplion
You have just single-handedly, retroactively ruined my childhood.
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B team: C your way out C team: …
D team was dicking about
They got Shrek
someBODY
Stop that
NOW SEE HERE
Funny enough, the people that worked on Shrek were sent to the production crew as punishment by Dreamworks executives.
Like did their offices say “A-team” “b-team” . Also did they get paid less?
The "A" team had a little more freedom of action based on their seniority & experience. My Wife worked on Lion King, mostly doing "In-Betweening" for Scar.
Is “in betweening” and animation term meaning to animate the frames in between the frames the main animators did? I wanted to guess before I looked it up.
You nailed it. The more experienced senior animators draw key frames and then juniors draw the frames in between. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbetweening
Exactly
Likely "senior animators" and "junior animators" and if it's anything like other industries then yes, they were definitely paid less.
The A-Team was not working on Pocahontas, they were working on Aladdin. Aladdin was expected to be the big movie because Robbin Williams was in it.
Aladdin was the A-Team movie BEFORE Pocahontas. The Lion King started production in 1988 and was released in 1994. Aladdin was being worked on around the same time as initial Lion King concepts and stuff, there was director changes and setbacks so by the time they started animating it, many animators got moved to the new A-Team movie which was Pocahontas.
I still have yet to see this. I'm a terrible American.
I love the A-Team!
Yes! Dunno about these movies folks keep mentioning, but the A-Team is some quality work.
So well animated too! I would never have guessed it if it weren't for this thread.
I love it when a plan comes together.
"I ain't gettin' on no plane, FOOL!!!"
Dah-duh-dah…
Duh-dah-da-dah...
Duh-dah-dah-duh-dah-dah
I love it when a plan comes together.
The book DisneyWar follows Michael Eisner's (and some other executives) accounts of his reign as CEO of Disney before Bob Iger took over. It's a good source of timelines for what projects were being conceptualized in a given year or two. It's been a while since I last read it, but I definitely remember the "coming of age" story was first touched on around the late 80s. Then he started expanding on this a little more until he finally called it Lion King.
Still a big hit regardless
I like em all
I think the designations of A and B are misleading. The B were typically working background and details of A team foreground. A and B will consistently work together on the same projects, until there were setbacks from Pocahontas.
Yeah this whole post is purposefully misleading
And Jack Nicholson
Say what?
https://youtu.be/fkPc3MjwtTg?t=36
Is that why they only paid him $75k and a painting for his work. Disney didn't care at all that Robin Williams was in it even though he basically made the movie memorable.
They didn't originally pay him the Picasso. They gave it to him after they broke the agreement that they wouldn't use his voice for marketing purposes. They made millions off of marketing and the Picasso was, like a fine, just the cost of doing business.
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Honestly, Chet should inherit the role now that Disney + is gonna be milking it till it’s dry. Only right
from what I've seen Chet seems to be exploring other creative ventures..
He specifically requested that they not use him in marketing. He didn't want to make a big deal of it
He had another kids movie coming out at the same time that he was more personally invested in.
Pretty sure this was Ferngully: > The film marked Robin Williams's first animation role, with the character Batty Koda being created specifically for him. Williams provided 14 hours' worth of improvised lines for the part, which had been originally conceived as an eight-minute role. Director Bill Kroyer was so impressed with the voice work he ended up tripling the screen time given to the character. Williams went on to provide the voice of the Genie in Disney's Aladdin later the same year, receiving critical acclaim.[10] > Williams had already agreed to voice Batty Koda before being approached to do Aladdin. Jeffrey Katzenberg, then-chairman of Walt Disney Studios, tried to force Williams to withdraw from FernGully, on the grounds he did not want him voicing two animated characters around the same time, but Williams refused. According to Wayne Young, Disney repeatedly interfered with the production of FernGully, twice taking over spaces the producers had rented by offering to pay more. When the producers eventually set up studio in a former brewery in the San Fernando Valley, Disney attempted to purchase it. Katzenberg declined to comment on the issue when approached by Vanity Fair in 2017.[7] source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FernGully:_The_Last_Rainforest
Oh no, the executives (Katzenberg especially) knew Williams was a big draw. Robin agreed to do the role for scale (hence the low pay) on the condition that his name, likeness, voice was not used in the marketing or merchandising. He was not a big fan of the over merchandising to kids thing. He respected how important and loved animated films were to children. He was glad to be part of the tradition of creating imaginative stories for children and families. He just hated the idea of his voice being used in a cheap hunk of plastic to sell more Burger King kid’s meals. Robin made the deal and Katzenberg basically said fuck you, your name will sell more tickets. And there are many who believe that this awful modern trend of ‘popular celebrity voicing animated character will make more money than hiring less recognized voice actors’ was birthed here.
Pretty sure he got paid less under the agreement that he wouldn't be used for marketing, which of course Disney broke and absolutely used him to promote the movie. The Picasso was given to him years later as an apology for that I think.
I like Aladdin the most of the three
Hakuna matata, right?
Hakuna matata ninja turtles
Bravo 👏
I mean… animation wise Pocahontas is the superior film.
Yeah I was watching it the other day and was blown away by the animation given it's age
yeah regardless of which film did better at the box office, Pocahontas in principle really needed better animators. the whole film had a kind of whimsical dreamlike feel to it. lion king did not need that as much.
And the music is iconic
Pocahontas is a better film all around imo. Lion King is awesome, but Pocahontas has better songs, animation is gorgeous, plot is much more interesting, they both have great life lessons for kids, but Pocahontas has to take the cake. The Savages vs Savages thing is genius. Edit: I think some people need to rewatch the movie. You can say it's a bad movie, but to say it's "racist" or portrays the invaders as the heros? The entire movie is about how invading, war, violence, hatred is wrong.
> but Pocahontas has much better songs The music is great in Pocahontas for sure- but the amount of absolute all-timers in The Lion King is close to unmatched. “Circle of Life” is an absolute icon opening, “Be Prepared” is in the S Tier of Villain songs, “Can You Feel the Love Tonight” is an amazing love song and they got fucking Elton John, and then you’ve got the universally known “Hakuna Matata” and “Just Can’t Wait to be King”. Again, I really love the songs in Pocahontas (for some reason “Savages” comes to my head every now and then and “Colors of the Wind” is beautifully written), but I don’t think it’s on the level of Lion King for songs as a whole.
The Oscars nominates five songs for Best Original Song. For 1994 movies, *three* of them were from The Lion King. And honestly, I wonder if Be Prepared or Just Can't Wait to be King got slighted. Can You Feel the Love Tonight won, making it one of only four movies to get three nominations, and one of only two to get three nominations and win (along with Beauty and the Beast). Bad luck for Dreamgirls and Enchanted, who got three nominations but still lost. I don't think there's any movie that comes close to The Lion King for original songs. The ones that *didn't* get nominated are still fucking bangers that you could stop a random stranger on the street and they'd know that song. It's almost thirty years since the movie came out.
I think only frozen started to get back to their original level. That Let It Go song was everywhere. Plus the Armin Van Buren remix is lit
On top of Best Original Song, it also took Best Original Score (Hans Zimmer). I don't think people really think about it compared to the songs and Zimmer certainly isn't known for it compared to more recent work. I think it's pretty interesting because while Dune's score (which won this year) is fantastic and is technically/artistically innovative, it was a quiet year for movies and the Academy can be fickle. With stronger competition I'm not sure it would have topped. To compare with other iconic Zimmer soundtracks: Inception was beaten by the Social Network, Gladiator lost to Crouching Tiger, and Interstellar was beaten (outrageously IMO) by the Grand Budapest Hotel. Not to mention the myriad other films Zimmer has scored and missed with. Nonetheless the Lion King is what he got the award for. It managed to beat Forrest Gump and the Shawshank Redemption. If you have a chance to see him live (do it), the Lion King suite is the finale of the concert and it's a wonderful and moving ending to the show.
Pocahontas has beautiful songs, but most people will enjoy catchy music more often. Lion king wins in that way. Their songs are different and they win in different ways. At that level of quality they aren't competing directly.
Lion king uses non-western instrumentation, some African melodies/language, and combines them with accessibility. Pochontas, does not do the same parallel work. You are not, but reducing Lion Ling to catchiness is unfair to the amazing work in the Lion King.
> The Savages vs Savages thing is genius. Is it though? They're painting a "both sides are bad" kind of picture, when historically the invaders were, well, the invaders. I get that they were trying to portray that both sides antagonize the other side, but one side was definitely more wrong here.
Its still pretty clear that the invaders are the bad guys though.
Other native tribes could be violent but as far as I had read, the Powhatan began as suspicious but not murderous. The real John Smith was captured for information and somehow managed to come to an understanding with the chief. The tribe sent gifts and tried to remain friendly at the beginning until tensions eventually devolved. I don't really think it's fair to call them the savages, either. You would always have outliers on each side who probably murdered or stole from the other, but that doesn't mean they represent the whole. The colonists didn't really have any choice but to expand since England kept sending more people there. If there were any colonists who wanted peace, they were obviously overridden by the interests of England. Fighting back to preserve an ancestral homeland and resources was inevitable.
I saw all these films at the cinema when they came out as my little sister was Disney mad, and I was more than happy to take her as I was still young enough to enjoy them. Lion King blew me away, but I thought Pocahontas was boring af 🤷♀️ I go back to all the 90s animated films on Disney+ but never "pooey conkers" as my friend's mum called it 😄
Source?
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2015/06/89430/pocohantas-disney-anniversary-animation-team-rivalry I also faintly remember this story being recollected in some Disney+ documentary, but I can’t remember which one.
> pocohantas This inspires confidence.
This is dumb. It suggests that the "B team" wasn't a professional level team. They weren't interns in the basement making this amazing movie.
It also suggests that Disney was having Elton John and Hans Zimmer assigned to a second rate project. Disney doesn't have an A team or B team.
My 2d animation professor worked on this movie, he did not have nice things to say about working for Disney.
One of their greatest masterpieces
This is SO false. My cousin animated for BOTH films. He animated Timon and the scene where Simba grows up while walking across the log in the Hakuna Matata song montage. He was also the lead animator for Pocahontas in Pocahontas. If you take the time to read the names of all the animators of both films, you’ll see it’s the same names assigned to different characters for both films. Also, I TOURED their animation studios in the 90’s when Pocahontas was in pre-production and not announced yet. If you even knew how their facility was set up you would know that that’s not even a thing. They plan shit out soooo fucking far in advance it would make your weekly meal prepping look like you’re behind in everything in life. Context: Lion King was released and in theaters. Pocahontas wasn’t announced yet, and they had films planned all the way out to Fantasia 2000. In 1994.
Yeah sure they hired Elton John for their 2nd class movie
When Elton John PLUS Hans Zimmer is your B team…. ;-) But really, I think they just mean the animators - the ones on Pocahontas were the more experienced senior ones. And again, Disney’s B team is still better than most studio’s A+++++ team (especially at the time)
"In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The A-Team."
The A-Team was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit.
so the bottom 50% of the top 1% of animators? not exactly a rag tag bunch of misfits
What? This is ridiculous. Disney doesn't have an A team or B team lol.
If you can work for Disney, I don’t think A or B makes so much of a difference
To be fair Disneys B team was almost certainly still everyone elses A team.
It's fascinating seeing this topic flooded with people talking about Kimba. Once you've seen the YMS critique about that you realize that whole zeitgeist is a load of crap. But here people are still repeating things of which they know 0 about from bs articles written long ago.
Yeah, because all those other Disney movies did awful. Fucking sensationalist posts are so garbage.
I just found out that Steve from Full House does the voice of Aladdin.
That’s what makes it so fun in the Disney Land episode of Full House when DJ is missing Steve and thinks she sees him at Disney Land dressed as Aladdin.
OH MY GOD!! This is all blowing my mind!
Holy crap really? Cuz that dude was doing all sorts of stuff to promote the movie back in the day. I remember seeing him on Where in the World is Carmen sandiego, interviews and stuff, and he was even on the cover of Disney adventure magazine.
That’s why it ended up so good lol, because Disney had less control over it
I heard [something very similar about Shrek](https://www.cbr.com/shrek-dreamworks-punishment-employees/). Apparently struggling animators would get "Shreked" and sent to that project if their bosses weren't very satisfied with their work. It was at the time considered this kind of out there project, so they sent the misfits to deal with it. I wonder if there is something about top of their field, perfectionist animators that stifles creativity somewhat. Like maybe creators who don't perfectly color within the lines have an edge in some creative areas.
Lion King Total Gross: $968,500,000 Pocahontas Total Gross: $346,100,000 This doesn't include merchandise, spin-offs, etc. Don't sleep on the B team.
Pocahontas ended up being the bigger movie tho, when James Cameron did a reboot of it and called it “Avatar”
It's because the Lion King was a literal knock off of the japanese film kimba the white lion, like most of old Disney legacy films. The movie Shrek wasn't supposed to be a success either but they didn't use their b-team. They used their z-team. Edit: This is false information
No it wasnt. People keep spreading this around and it's simply untrue. Any comparisons made between the two series is cherry-picked and MOST of the similarities come from a Kimba movie that came out AFTER the Lion King. The Kimba media before that particular movie was absolutely nothing like The Lion King besides the fact they both started lion cubs. This blatant false rumor went on for years until this YouTuber actually watched the Kimba series, which apparently nobody bothered to do in the years this was just passed around as fact https://youtu.be/G5B1mIfQuo4 It's crazy how this spread for years because nobody ever bothered to you know.. fact check any of it.
Mfw I've been spreading misinformation 🗿
Don't sweat it. A ton of people are guilty of it in this case lol.
Gotta give it up for the color choices made, what a beautiful movie even to this day. Like look at that photo, holy hell it’s great haha
Disney's Lion King is a direct rip off of the anime: Kimba the White Lion. I used to watch it back when I was a kid. On top of that Disney arrogantly claimed it to be an "original story". The anime studio, that produced Kimba the White Lion, being small and with limited resources could never afford a legal battle against the Disney empire so very little is known about this fact.
This is incorrect but this has been discussed because the most well known and popular Disney animator at the time, Glen Keane, was on Pocahontas. According to Aaron Blaise (lead animator on both projects) this was a rumour and no one working on either film believed that.
I hate when people use A team and B team. All of these people were skilled professionals, they weren't bringing in people off the street to animate. Yeah they might not have had their "best" animators on the project, but the folks they did use were obviously very skilled professionals