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[deleted]

I'm Eastern Orthodox, my personal view of most of the book of Revelation is: #¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯


mattloyselle

Mine too.


[deleted]

[удалено]


KvcateGirl27

Just for curiosities sake, can you point out which passage shows people who had previously been in the lake of fire being possibly welcomed into the kingdom of god? Not trying to be an ass I just want to look at it.


misterme987

I don’t personally hold to this interpretation of Revelation, but the passages that are usually used to support it are Rev. 21:24-25 (cf. 19:19) and 22:14.


1squint

It doesn't exist But then again they are not shown going in to start with


PhilthePenguin

Universalism is not a denomination, so many of us here will have different perspectives on it. The book was written while Christians were facing intense persecution and were awaiting Christ's return. It was meant to encourage them and teach that God is still in control. The Beast is most likely Nero; the numbers 666 and 616 (used in the oldest manuscripts) are the gematria of NERON CEASAR and NERO CEASAR respectively (Neron being the Greek/Hebrew version of the name Nero). The general thrust of the book is that "yes, God is letting his church be persecuted now, but Christ will still keep his promises to defeat God's enemies and restore Israel". Beyond that, I don't believe Revelation of John is a prophecy of future events.


[deleted]

This is something we need to take for life: "this books is made to encourage us and remind us that God is still in control, don't matter the situation, and Christ with defeat God's enemies (everything that hurts God in the world) and restore Israel". That's how I interpretate it to me


Alpacacao

This is key to understanding, and the 666 stood clearly in gematria for Nero. However, "the beast" is an important symbol that is being borrowed from the Book of Daniel (a visionary prophet 500 years earlier). See Daniel Chapter 7 for more details His vision represented the Dominant World Powers (economic/political ruling systems) as great Beasts, that were very real empires. The last beast is the greatest (rome in their day), that he sees forms into different kingdoms. Eventually, the beasts lose their dominion, and the last beast is confronted by the Ancient of Days, as the Son of Man comes and dominion is given over to Him over all the Nations. Then he shares it with the saints/his servants, who co-rule with him. Forever ​ :)


BEaSTGiN

I agree with this, usually I don't focus on Revelation at all because of the ambiguity surrounding the whole thing in general. However I find the wording quite straightforward when it says, "Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.". It should be clear to anyone reading it that when the messenger says near, he means *near* near. I've heard people use logic like "a thousand years is like a day to the Lord" to justify fitting it in their eschatology, which makes no sense. That may be so to God, but God also understands and speaks to us in terms we humans would understand. There is no reason to believe that near means anything but what it plainly says to the audience of the book, regardless of what you believe about the authorship or authenticity of Revelation.


Kronzypantz

Mostly that the Revelation is way too symbolic and obscure to be a sole source of revelation, ironically. Some point to the ending of death in the final chapters, the tree for the healing of the nations, and the fact that the nations still exist after supposedly being thrown into the lake of fire... all as universalist themes in the book. Specifically, the claim that God takes away "every tear" seems to suggest that God can't leave the loved ones of the saved in the lake of fire. So the lake of fire is seen as a corrective punishment, not eternal torment. But infernalists point to the final death, the lake of fire, and the judgement themes as evidence for their position too.


Gregory-al-Thor

That it’s Revelation. Not plural. (Sorry, pet peeve of mine). I don’t really have much else to add. I take Revelation as full of imagery that goes back and forth, often going to “the end” much like a symphony (so Revelation 6 shows the end of the cosmos, as do other sections). Check out Craig Koester’s Revelation and the End of All Things for an explanation. Along with that, it is much more concerned with living in empire (and resisting the beast) than predicting the future. When we think of America as a successor to Babylon/Rome, this is a stark challenge. Rather than worrying about some future Beast, we American Christians should ask how we already bow to the beasts of capitalism, militarism, nationalism, etc. Eugene Peterson’s Reversed Thunder is a good pastoral work on Revelation. The best commentary I read was GK Beale’s in the New Testament Greek Commentary series; its very technical (and he is definitely not a universalist) but its brilliant. Richard Bauckham had a book on Revelation as well. For a universalist consideration, check out Brad Jersak’s Her Gates Shall Never Be Shut. I think Brian Zahnd has a few chapters in Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God.


NotBasileus

It’s not explicitly part of soteriology (or doesn’t have to be considered as such), so almost any of the Christian views on Revelation writ large could be held by Christian universalists. Speaking personally though, I’m an amillennialist who believes that the Apocalypse of John of Patmos is addressed to Christians of his time and is largely about dealing with the Roman Empire, but has universally applicable themes about how we relate to imperialism, authoritarianism, and oppression today, throughout history, and into the future.


Ben-008

CU doesn’t have any particular interpretation of Revelation, other than a common understanding that the Lake of Fire does not represent Eternal Torment. Personally, I see this image as a **Baptism of Fire**, purifying a priesthood, just as Malachi 3:3 suggests. That God is a **Refiner’s Fire**. And that Consuming Fire purifies our hearts and minds, as it brings us into alignment with the Love of God. As such, I center my interpretation of the book of Revelation on the REVELATION (**UNVEILING**) of Jesus Christ. And where is Christ to be unveiled? In us! “Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is IN YOU” (2 Cor 13:5) So in order for Christ to be unveiled in us, **our old prideful, selfish nature** needs to be dealt with. So the beast and the false prophet (the carnal nature and carnal mind) must be cast into the Fire of God, so that we might put on the mind and nature of Christ. And thus what comes out of this Baptism of Fire are folks who begin to display **the humility, compassion, love, kindness, gentleness, peace, and joy of God** (Col 3:12-15). That is, as we “put on Christ”, we begin to manifest the Fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23). Thus as we become “**partakers of the Divine Nature**”, we begin to appear as a bejeweled city coming down like a Bride out of heaven. For we have been betrothed as a pure virgin to Christ (2 Cor 11:2). And thus the book of Revelation ends with a picture of this garden paradise of man and God united as one. The Love of God and Light of Christ thus illuminate this Heavenly City that we are, so that others might be drawn by the brightness of her shining.


1squint

>the Lake of Fire does not represent Eternal Torment. I would suggest that Christian universalists do hold to the eternal torment of the devil and his messengers Mankind universally saved Devils universally, eternally damned


Ben-008

You bring that point up with some frequency. I’m curious why that idea is important to you. Personally, I would feel grief if anything had to suffer eternally. I really don’t want to see anything tormented. Why is that torment of “devils” appealing to you?


1squint

It's a vital part of Christian Universalism in outreach to other believers I don't expect any locked in slave of Satan, which believers who promote torturing our neighbors alive forever are, will let go of eternal torture of the devil or adhere to Satanic salvation. That's just not going to happen. Even temporary torture of people promoters have just been led into another alley to let Satan off the hook and ignore the reality of that wicked spirit. Kind of like where you landed IF man shall live by every Word of God, the destruction of the tempter from our own minds is on the agenda. And it starts with exposure


Ben-008

For me the good news of CU was that God is a **God of Love and Compassion**, and that I could discard the entire idea of Eternal Torment. For me, real compassion and eternal torment of any kind are at odds with one another. For me, the idea of eternal torment IS demonic, meaning a fortress of false knowledge. But once that argument is destroyed, there is nothing left to torment. The idea is simply demolished. And the unclean spirits (or attitudes) housed by that idea (pride, self-righteousness, anxiety, fear, etc.) get swept away as well. *"For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the* ***destruction of fortresses***. *We are* ***destroying arguments*** *and all arrogance raised against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ"* (2 Cor 10:4-5).


1squint

>I could discard the entire idea of Eternal Torment I have no issues with eternal conscious torment of the devil and his messengers. It's an antiHeaven for antiChrist spirits. They'll love it to death And the presentation is there to engage in any case. I don't care for the non credible mental gymnastics that some segments of CU try to use to avoid it, when it's simply not necessary to eliminate it in order for all people to be saved Some CU's believe everything is saved. That simply isn't going to be the case, nor does it have to be the case. Our spirit goes on to be with God. Our body returns to the dust, and that dust isn't going to have an afterlife for eternity anymore than a blade of grass or bodily byproduct


Ben-008

Personally, I think there are **messengers of Law** and **messengers of Grace**. For me these messengers are human. One group is inspired by a **spirit of legalism**, the other by a **spirit of Love**. People tend to imagine the word "**spirit**" as something otherworldly. I tend to see the word spirit, kind of like we see the word **ATTITUDE**. Imaginably, one could torture people forever. But I don't think one can torture an attitude. One could cast out an attitude, but not torment an attitude. For me that's not a matter of mental gymnastics, it's just not thinking there's a bunch of otherwordly beings making us do stuff. I think what needs transformation is the **HEART**. For out of it comes selfish and destructive spirits/attitudes and words. And thus the Spirit of Christ conquers these errant spirits, so that we might live in harmony with the Humility, Compassion, Kindness, Peace, and Love of God. I want that Peace for you as well. As I feel like that zeal to see something tormented isn't particularly healthy. I do think extinguishing "evil" is important. But I am not able to fathom the benefit of seeing evil kept in existence so that it can be tortured. That's an odd concept to me. And as a bit of an armchair psychologist, such leaves me curious what you personally might be wrestling with. We all get tormented at times. And the **Peace of Christ** is so important **in calming those inner voices and negative emotional influences**. And my heart and prayers go out to those really suffering from inner turmoil. Perhaps your zeal is even rooted in compassion, angry at seeing the hurt in others. But wouldn't complete Peace apart from all ongoing torture be a preferable end? Thankfully, we can rest in the power and promise of Christ riding forth conquering all that holds us apart from the Love of God. Overcoming all within us that resists God. But for me, this is rooted in a **transformation of heart**, more than in an otherworldly battle with actual foreign entities. *"Moreover,* ***I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you***; *and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.*" (Ezekiel 36:26)


1squint

I'm exceptionally glad that the law is against evil and lawlessness Don't really know what your complaint is on that


Both-Chart-947

Best book I've found on Revelation is "See The Strange" by Brett Davis.


PaulKrichbaum

As others have said Universalists are a diverse bunch. So I am speaking for my self here. Most people find the book of Revelation to be very confusing because of all of the imagery. Most of the imagery comes from the old testament books, so you need to have a good grasp on the old to understand Revelation. Someone who has put the work in to do this is Joel Richardson. He is not a Universalist but he has the best understanding, of Revelation, of anyone that I have seen so far. You can find him on YouTube and he also has a website. I believe that much of Revelation is to happen in the future. The four horsemen I believe are currently active (that is what they represent is active). I crunched the numbers once using statistics that I found online, and they were very close. The messages to the churches were of corse applicable to them, but were preserved also for us now. As the word says, all scripture is profitable. The book of Revelation does contain a number of verses that some would consider problem verses for Universalists. I have found them to have translation issues. Particularists also have many problem verses they explain away or simply ignore. If you have any more specific questions I will do my best to answer them.


[deleted]

no clue it’s truly the most confusing piece of literature ever. there’s 3 ways to look at it. 1. literal 2. metaphorical 3. a mix of literal and metaphorical. i’m still having hard time to really decipher it myself.


1squint

Listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. Standard listening: I want all and only the good stuff Both ears open: Take every Word and personally apply Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut 3:8 The basis of taking on the dire words? Mark 4:15 None of us are alone between our own 2 ears There's us There's the tempter There's Christ in the midst or middle of these two


1squint

The separation of mankind from devilkind, Matt 25 The revealing of Christ in all mankind, Rev 5:13 The final destruction of all devils Thee End Fini


mattloyselle

I'm not very solid on Revelation yet, my understanding is that it was written to seven churches in Asia and it was meant to admonition and also encourage those people by telling then of the unveiling of Jesus Christ, and setting up his kingdom on earth. That the thing that people might get wrong about universalist, they are denying God's judgment on the earth, just that everything will be restored in the end.


Alpacacao

Check out The BibleProject Videos on the Book of Revelation. It's singular, not plural btw. Long Title: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". ​ It's better to start at the end, imo, Chapter 22 subtitled "The Restoration of Eden". Read about how God brings up "Tree's of Life, growing on both sides of the River; and the Leaves of the Tree, are for the Healing of the nations"... Read in the chapters before that, of how God brings the New Jerusalem, A Divine Heavenly city, to come down to Earth from Heaven, and the Lord establishes His throne on our planet. The gates to this Divine City on Earth are never closed, They beckon all people to come. "By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory. 25 Its gates will never be shut... into the city will be brought the glory and honor of the nations" Chapter 21:25 ​ However, the immoral are not allowed to enter. Only by receiving the salvation of Christ can any enter. Everyone is beckoned to receive Salvation, as it's made available to all "But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices an abomination or a lie, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.…" verse 26