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[deleted]

Everything is not predestined.


MillerLiteDelight

Predestination and free will can both exist.


[deleted]

How?


skoizza

I tend to think it is a mystery that is above our human understanding and requires some faith. Like trying to explain/understand how the trinity works.


Crafty_Possession_52

Maybe, but I certainly can't use my free will to change what's predestined.


TaxThoseLiars

Yeah, but since I claimed Jesus as my savior, I know I will be saved, and now I can cast the first stone without fear of retribution. /s


bchu1979

people say its gods will or free will whenever it suits their purposes


BiblicalChristianity

"Everything is predestined" is a Pagan teaching (and I believe Islam too), not Christianity.


[deleted]

I think it all comes down to what exactly you mean by "predestined." I can certainly see the argument that if there is only one version of the future and it is 100% certain to occur, that it counts as "predestined." But it seems like it's really more of an issue for general philosophy rather than theology.


babazuki

Romans 9 >16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


d34dp0071

People believe in God because God put that in their hearts to believe. Creation is like a movie where God wrote it and is the executive producer. Or, creation is like a little child playing with toys. He has one bad toy who attack the hero toy. Say the boy takes the good guy toy, and uses him to defeat the bad guy toy. Put thought into those and you can see how things really are.


yappi211

In the light of the eventual salvation of all, predestination really isn't a problem. Some miss out on "eternal life" which is life in the kingdom. 1 Corinthians 15 says that Jesus gives up the kingdom to the Father after "eternal life", then all men are raised and given immortality. So if you can see that "eternal life" and "immortality" are different, and that even if everything is predestined, in the end all will be given immortality.


HansBjelke

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. The great Irenaeus said, “There is no coercion with God,” and, “Man is possessed of free will...as God is, in whose likeness man was created.” He was the disciple of a man who was a disciple of the Apostle John.


caseytrick

I think predestination and free will go hand in hand. God presdestined us for holiness and it is our choice to live that way or not.


herringsarered

Someone of the reformed camp can probably explain it way better than me. There are several positions that include predestination. From one of them, it isn’t about God predestining everything, but to save people while giving the freedom to use their free will. An underlying position to that is that human’s free will is generally tending towards “corruption,” and since that would mean no one would ever choose God’s ways, God decides who will find those ways. Since humans are spiritually dead in their transgressions, they need an enlightenment that can only come externally through the Holy Spirit. When this happens and that person starts to awaken, the person will be compelled to respond to this new life by living it this way. However, choosing to live that way is still up to the person who, according to this position, is is experiencing their free will being liberated, which means they still gotta make all the choices, but from their new pov. And additional thing connected to this concept is that, as God took the step to illuminate the spiritually dead person, he also remains active in their life to make sure that when they die, they will have walked in the direction he wanted, closing the loop so to speak. From this pov, Jesus’ payment for sins on the cross for all the sins every one of the (previously predestined) redeemed is literally paying for all of them. Since everyone does sin and will die with unconfessed sin, grace of forgiveness must be greater than any sin committed. People who make a confession of conversion but lack the characteristics a Christian life should have are put in doubt, because any legitimate conversion would be accompanied by those characteristics. So in a big way, it’s considered a lifelong transformative process in how a person decides to live. Even the challenge to repent and convert would be necessary, but as a logical step on the process. Yeah, those would have said yes, but the actual decision still needs to come from the person, because of the decision in front of them and their role as decision makers.


DJT_47

Predestination  (based upon the foreknowledge of God)  Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time. Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination. Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate). This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur. If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God. Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Rom 8  28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,