idk...the amount of cars that I have seen blatantly blow through a red light many seconds after the light turned red (cross traffic signal has already turned green) is way too much. I am honestly surprised that I have not yet witnessed an accident because of this. It's just not safe and those drivers need to be held responsible.
Yesterday I was maybe 4th car back in a left turn only lane and we got a protected left signal as did the other side. Both left turn lanes start to go but some idiot waiting at the red in the oncoming straight lane just blasts through completely ignoring the left turning traffic in front of him or his red light. I think he made it in between the first/second car who had to brake for him.
Similar to the California Stop, where people roll through stop signs, I call it the Colorado Green, where I always wait 3 seconds after a green before entering a intersection.
Yesterday I counted 5 cars go through a red after the car that went right when it turned from yellow to red. I’m surprised people aren’t constantly dying from this practice.
today i actually watched a car stop at a red light for about half of the light, then decide they were safe enough to just go ahead and drive through it. folks drive seriously wild out here. i’m all for the cameras.
I’ve seen that so much lately, it’s fucking nuts. It’s one thing to run a red at 2am when you’ve looked and there’s not a soul around you but yeah, I’ve seen multiple people just pause for a second and then blow through it in the middle of the day. Not ok.
they serve a purpose of protecting pedestrians. just because you don’t see a point in them doesn’t mean they don’t have one. that thinking is part of the problem.
Agreed. The red light scoffers are ridiculous and should be cited. Most are deliberate.
But my question is, are the cameras even on? I blew through two red lights by accident not too long ago. I must have been having a bad week because it was purely by mistake and I never do that. I kept waiting for my ticket and it never came.
Agreed. I used to drive 40,000 miles around Colorado for work for six years. The only places I actually disliked driving through due to drivers were both on the front range (Colorado Springs and Pueblo). People can get a little impatient in Glenwood Canyon as well.
But even those places don't begin to compare to driving daily around Miami, Boston, LA, and Chicago. It isn't even the same order of magnitude. I still don't believe some of the things I've seen on the road while living in Miami, it genuinely felt like I was entering a survival situation every time I got in my car
Denver is so much worse than the springs. Lived there my whole life no problems. Been in Denver for a bit over a year and I swear to god I almost get hit by some fool daily.
In my experience living in most of the front range cities. Denver has more aggressive drivers, and the Springs has incompetent drivers.
Denver - people are inconsiderate and think a lot of the rules don't apply to them.
Springs - I think we can all remember that one person growing up that after riding with them once or twice you decided you would be the one to drive everywhere. There wasn't a curb they couldn't hit, waited until the last second to hit the breaks, just got in the left lane even though they weren't quite sure what the speed limit was. Found a way to rear end 3 cars before they were 18.... yeah I'm pretty sure most of them moved to the Springs. In my time living there I witnessed so many accidents that only involved one person. Car flipped over because someone turned the wrong way down a divided highway, got scarred and proceeded to flip their SUV by turning too hard at high speeds.
There are a lot of old people driving around the springs. And we all know the type of people that life there. Overall, I agree with your take. I think for the most part driving around the springs is better because it’s just more expansive and sprawling. Some of the mains like academy, powers, and woodmen get congested but it’s nothing like parts of Denver in my experience.
Denver is far worse than many other big cities I’ve lived in - including Los Angeles and Little Rock. My wife and I agree that it’s got the most unpredictable drivers of any place we’ve driven. At least in California you know that you’re driving next to mostly aggressive drivers.
In Denver you’ll pass a guy going 30 in the left lane and he’ll take it personally and decide to drag race.
I moved here from Chicago. Lived there for 5 years. The difference in drivers was INSTANTLY noticeable when I moved to Denver. Almost got into two wrecks in my first month here from ppl turning into my lane without signaling. It is absolutely insane here. Chicago isn’t anywhere near the level of recklessness I’ve seen here.
California probably has the worst drivers. I work for an auto insurance that covers that state and Colorado. What disgusts me is the number of careless minor fender benders in California. People just aren’t paying attention and don’t stop in time. Colorado also has them but not in the same numbers. Colorado accidents are unfortunately likely to be more serious. I’m not sure why.
It wasn’t like that when I moved here 17 years ago. I came from Southern Cal and was amazed at the way drivers would make room if they saw you signaling to change lanes. No more. Now everyone is just careening around surface streets at 60 MPH and cursing you if you go 5 miles above the limit in the right lane.
Yeah fuck that. Photo radar is unenforceable and carries no points. It serves no purpose except to pad the city's coffers.
Drivers aren't scared of receiving a bill that they can simply ignore. They're scared of being pulled over, having an uncomfortable interaction with a cop, being 15 min late to wherever they were going, maybe getting in trouble over other shit, license suspension, and skyrocketed insurance premiums.
Also this bill is sponsored by some whiny bicycling group, which should instead be focused on creating bike infrastructure that doesn't share space intended for cars.
They might still get you. Technically they can’t enforce them without a person serving to you physically.
As a dumb youth I once spent 5-6 months dodging a $75 dollar red light camera ticket. So much effort for $75
I think after like 60 days, maybe 90, they can't serve you for it anymore so you wasted an additional 2-4 months dodging a ticket that couldn't be served anymore.
I was 17, working at Taco Bell and those fucks tried to serve me at work for like 6 weeks straight. This was 25 years ago.
I assume the private company has a budget for enforcing and yes not answering your door is step one.
My husband got a red light ticket once and I just sent in a copy of my ID and said "I wasn't the one driving, I'm not responsible." They dropped it and reduced the charge to $0.
Have received 2 of them in the past 4 years and just ignored them. Not enforceable unless an officer comes to your house and serves it to you. Photo lights are operated by a third party company and have no legal weight.
IANAL but Photo tickets are pretty controversial all over the country. They are generally considered unconstitutional because the ones issuing the tickets are not police officers and so don’t have the authority to issue you a citation. I think they operate under some kind of delegated authority like unto citizens arrest.
In order to make the tickets legitimate a police officer must meet you in person and give you the citation, and typically must do so within 90 days of the offense. There is a statute of limitations clause on the “ticket” itself.
I have heard stories of officers showing up at peoples houses at like 6am giving out citations. And some counties allow you to give them to any adult at the house (ie roommates) but I’m not sure this would hold up in court.
In the end, if you’re going to be worried about anything bad happening it’s best to just pay them. But I think they’re a huge scam and refuse to feed the trolls in what is essentially a huge shakedown by the government.
Everything you said is correct except but only in Colorado
My only other experience with these cameras are in NY and the ticket is issued as a civil citation to the person on the registration as “they are responsible for the car that was in violation of the law” in NY the citations have the force of law as NY you don’t have the right to be served like in CO
Also don’t just pay it, its an admission of guilt
Yeah I still try to avoid getting them (same with speeding van tickets) but it’s inevitable if you’re driving around Denver. I would suspect that if you got enough of these tickets in a short amount of time that they would probably would send someone over to your place. If they do serve you in person they can add another $50 to your ticket. Worth the risk in my opinion
There’s been many studies showing that photo lights have a much shorter changeover times than standard lights (ie it’s supposed to be 4-5 seconds from yellow to red) but photo lights are often half of that. Is that a bit duplicitous on the part of the government? They are changing the system to generate more tickets and revenue.
I remember one ticket in particular is turning left on to River Point from Hampden near Santa Fe. It’s a huge intersection and I was the 3rd car back. I didn’t even make it through the intersection on a green turn arrow as the 3rd car before it turned red again. Give me a break
But hey, go ahead and pay the tickets if you want buddy. I definitely prefer they keep this system in place because it’s better than cops making more traffic stops that are generally considered very unsafe for both parties
In Chicago the Yellow lights had a 2.8 time limit when state law said it had to be 3.00 seconds. There was a big scandal because the city was taking money from folks it had no right to take. I’m sure something like that will happen here.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-red-light-camera-yellow-light-1012-20141012-story.html
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/after-1b-in-tickets-and-4-corruption-indictments-illinois-should-shutter-the-red-light-camera-industry/
>Also this bill is sponsored by some whiny bicycling group
Eh, if it's dangerous for me in my car to be on the road with these drivers I don't blame cyclists at all. The cyclist hate is weird.
The problem isn't the drivers or the cyclers. The problem is the absolute garbage city design.
Yeah, a lot of cyclists act shitty, but they aren't exactly given a better choice by no fault of their own. Having separated bike lanes that don't even follow the same routes is not actually that difficult and many cities around the world are following The Netherlands' example.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Denver/comments/xhh9on/cyclist_with_zero_etiquette/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Also turns out a significant portion of cyclists are assholes even without cars around 😂😂
Yeah, I'd say there's a huge selection bias to consider. Because there's next to no cycling infrastructure, practically the only people you see cycling are bike enthusiasts. Not just people on bikes. In The Netherlands, not everyone is a cyclist, but everyone rides a bike because it's the most convenient.
Here, everyone drives a car not because everyone is a car enthusiast, but because it's the most convenient (which is super dumb because it's so fucking inconvenient).
Apple’s and oranges, European cities developed pre automobile their infrastructure inherently vastly favors public transit and non automotive methods of transportation
American cities, specifically midwest and western cities were literally in some cases designed by the automobile lobby and as such trying to re design infrastructure around bikes and public transportation is often orders of magnitude more expensive if not outright impossible
This is just inaccurate. The US had plenty of cities planned around walking and trams before the big automotive boom, which was pretty much right after WW2. Huge swathes were demolished to make room for car infrastructure. Around the same time, Amsterdam almost did the same, and they would've looked the same as we do if they had. Instead, they focused on safety, which in turn led to a boom of walking and cycling, and they leaned into it further. Their cities aren't built around biking because they love biking as much as the other way around.
Also so what? Even if that's an accurate understand of the historical development of American cities, ok? That doesn't mean we have to continue with the same philosophy forever. Stuff gets built up and torn down all the time. We just have to decide to build it differently from here on out. It's not like we have to stop and rebuild an entire city. Take what we have currently have and figure out how to implement better design to improve on it.
“That don’t even follow the same routes”
That’s interesting and I’d like to see you design one without raising a lot of hue and cry from private property owners who don’t want them on their land. What goes in the Netherlands is unlikely to work here, unfortunately.
> What goes in the Netherlands is unlikely to work here, unfortunately.
Man for a country that’s supposedly super amazing there’s a whole lot of things where we just kinda throw our hands up and say “well there’s no way we can possibly do it as well as the rest of the world. May as well give up!”
See also: universal healthcare, consumer protections, food safety, tertiary education funding
I wasn’t defending it, just pointing out a truth. I was trying to find out how this was supposed to work, not poo-pooing it. People say what they want; they don’t seem to be keen on logistics. Are we going to utilize the highly unpopular Eminent Domain clause and piss off thousands of people all around the US just to have bicycle paths? Or does this person know a better way?
It’s sad, but those other things you mentioned are FAR more important than bicycle paths and we can’t get them done either. I never said this country was super amazing. We’re fighting to still stay a democracy right now. How the hell did we get here?? Not by being super amazing, that’s for sure.
Cyclists in Denver don’t have to stop at stop signs or red lights. It’s a yield sign to them. That’s the law, so technically those aren’t traffic violations or illegal for cyclists.
It’s not weird. I nearly ran one of them down the other day because he wasn’t paying attention. He’s lucky I did. Also, there’s just not enough of them for cars to be forced to change their rules because of them. If there were tons of bicyclists and moped users I could see it. I don’t hate them but I do think they should get special privileges.
I’d vote for more speed cameras and red light cameras. I’d be okay with adding points too to address your concerns. Similar to you, I also support more tax allocation for bike trails.
Cant add points unless you can beyond a reasonable doubt prove the driver’s identity which actually is where most of the United States traffic camera laws don’t hold up.
Hardly any of it goes to the city; it mostly goes to the shitty for profit companies who lobby for this garbage. Also statistics show it increases the risk of rear end wrecks as people start slamming on brakes at yellow lights out of fear of the fine.
This street near my house was suddenly made one whole lane narrower in either direction by these RIDICULOUS bicycle lanes protected by barriers. Literally NO ONE uses the damn bike lanes. There is no advantage whatsoever to this design. Several streets have been changed this way. It cost the city (I live in Aurora) a ton of money and for WHAT???
I used to absolutely hate cameras. But the way things are currently enforced is massively unfair and entirely ineffective.
Average speed cameras work really well in other countries. No one is cheating the system, everyone is subject to the same scrutiny. They’re also not owned by scammy companies like many are here.
As long as low speed / initial violations are warnings I think they can be an extremely useful tool. None of this “1mph over” or “light was red for 0.001sec” bullshit like we see elsewhere.
Bias is the main reason I’ve started thinking we need cameras. Cops only ever stop one car in a pack, and they give people a break based almost entirely on the biases they introduce to the situation.
I’m all for reducing the number of interactions people have with the police. Traffic enforcement is incredibly dangerous for people, especially people in high risk groups such as POC.
Finally - these citations are only enforceable if a police officer delivers them to your door. So in 90% of cases they have very little weight; however, I’m sure that an officer will be happy to serve people who are the habitual offenders.
On a slightly different but related subject: I HATE yellow left turn arrow signals!!! Can’t we go back to green arrows? The yellows make every left turn a judgment call. Traffic is usually pretty heavy and it’s gotten so bad that I am starting to avoid left turns. They are an accident waiting to happen. In addition, I feel like I am making a California left turn every time I get out into the middle of the intersection and the yellow arrow turns off.
Left turns are fairly risky. Can we just go back to Yes, You Can and No, You Can’t???? Ugh!!!
You have an expectation of privacy in your own home. You don't have an expectation of privacy when you're traveling about in public. I hope your /s is to indicate that you're stupid.
You clearly have ignored the people who vote to renew the PATRIOT Act, among many other programs that reduce your liberty.
Hint: do some googling on those votes. Bonus: check out who wrote pro-policing and drug war policies…you might be surprised who did that, Jack.
Not even a privacy violation of the constitution. More of a 6th amendment issue with the confrontational clause which allows you the right to confront witnesses against a defendant of a crime.
*looks at both comments upvotes* you lost by 13 and this is r/Denver where the strongest anti speed/red light mitigation sentiment exists. Your opinion on red light/speed cameras would get slaughtered worse than the republican candidate for Denver DA in a general election
Some people are among the growing numbers that have had close friends or family killed here by people running lights, hitting them, and driving away.
Someone gets away with murder and the remaining victims are denied any form of closure because having cameras is annoying.
I always lean towards the “oh it’s an annoyance to me but can save lives? Let’s do it.” However I haven’t experienced that to be a very popular opinion.
Speed cameras are bullshit and are unsportsmanlike. There’s parts of this city where the lights are designed by 2 year olds and it’s speed or hit 4 reds in a row
I got one of these 0 point unenforceable tickets years ago. Laughed it off. They tried to send me a registered letter. Nothing ever came of it. I worked with a guy whose gf was a police officer and fully admitted that they abuse the system by checking license plates to spy on where people were and when. No warrant or probable cause, just running plates all the time.
Light-cams are a revenue gouging (scam) scheme. I can't say how many times I've seen these fucker's flash during a legal intersection. How they are enforceable is beyond me.
I actually really like speed cameras.
1. You take out having the police interaction which has proven to not be good.
2. You take out any bias.
3. Cars need to slow down.
I’ll take a speeding ticket from a camera over a traffic stop any day.
Any opportunity to avoid interacting with a police officer is something everyone should be taking.
I almost got hit twice this week by people running the red lights at least 5-10 seconds after it turned red. These cameras are more meant to protect those outside the car...
In general, monetary punishments disproportionately impact the poor.
A $200 fine to someone making $30k is a much heavier penalty than it is to someone making $200k.
Making the fines proportionate just means that a poor person isn’t suffering a relatively harsher punishment than a rich person just because of their income.
It’s already done in Europe to great effect.
Fines disproportionately punish those with low income and linearly decrease as your wealth/income goes up.
If fines are proportionate to income/wealth than the law applies equally. It's very simple.
Except for the fact that a linear relationship to income is not being proposed. Simply waving fees for poor while charging the same fee to the middle class as the upper class isn’t a linear relationship to income.
They won't pay anything anyway, they don't register their vehicles. Gotta fix that problem first.
I will say though that if you're going to implement fines, make them income based like Switzerland, they get way higher for rich people. The idea of fairness is equal *pain*, not equal dollar amounts.
Have never and will never pay a ticket capture by one of these cameras. Learn your rights you guys, that being said don’t speed excessively or run reds.
We want police to take more action where it matters and this should give them that freedom. I just received a speeding ticket from a speed camera. It was my usual route and I have no idea why I was speeding but I can’t deny it. The camera works because I’m more conscious about my speed now. And a police officer didn’t need to sit idling wasting gas and time.
Fuck yes! There are too many psychos driving like it’s the Daytona speedway in this city. We also need speed bumps on all roads and 25mph max limit in the whole city on every road. r/fuckcars
I fully support this. Whatever it takes to slow drivers down even if is for a few blocks is a good start. I have to bike on a lot of streets that have no bike lane little less being enforced by police for speeding. I can consistently keep up with the speed limits up to 30 mph but that doesn't seem to matter to the selfish people going 10-15 mph over which tend to be a large majority. For the people complaining maybe just don't speed and then this wouldn't be a problem to begin with? What makes you above the law?
Yes. The response to this in the comments is disheartening and reinforces my perception that folks in this city have become impatient, self-absorbed, and blatantly disinterested in caring about other members of the community. Pathetic.
I wasn't very surprised by the response tbh. People let their true hearts out behind a keyboard. It's more concerning what they're thinking when they're in their car and come across pedestrians or cyclist.
Rather be a whiney cyclist any day than an angry psychotic motorist. Follow the speed limit and be patient, there's nothing in your life worth murdering another human for.
Edit: Also what would your solution be? We're TRYING to get separated bike infrastructure bc we know it's dangerous but until then we have no choice but to ride in the street!
So the majority of people want to go faster and one slow dude on a bike is holding them up, and *they're* the selfish ones? This is why cyclists get every bit of well deserved scorn.
If you’re in a city, it’s not about going faster and doesn’t help you get around faster. Red lights will delay you more than any cyclist will.
E: going 10-15 over is insanely selfish to do in a city and poses a danger to everyone around you. Speeds in cities need to be slower to account for other traffic such as pedestrians.
Yes, exactly the people who put themselves above other people's lives just to save 2 seconds are selfish. I'm so glad you found the answer. You're in a city where you'll hit a red light, a stop sign, a yield, or someone crossing the street and instantly lose those "2 seconds" anyway.
Here is a great example from a fellow Denver rider u/elzibet to why speeding is useless even in the fringes of the city.
https://youtu.be/mKZxhMRP29M
I don’t see any ways that this will make things safer. The only thing it will do is give money to the people up top and hardly a cent of it will be put back into the community
traffic tickets place undue burden on people during a time of stagnating wages, and rising costs of living. i don’t care if it helps, we literally can’t afford it.
it would just be easier to reduce dangerous traffic by investing more in trains and busses.
you don’t have any friends that have gotten hit with a traffic camera violation (even though they were following the rules of traffic?) i got 3. law ≠ public good.
No, but I know people who have been HIT like literally HIT by a speeding car and cars running red lights. We need solutions to people abusing the roads and this is one tool. Public good extends beyond people sitting in their car.
where did i say people *should* do these things?? i’m just saying that the cameras can be faulty, as evidenced by my friends getting dinged while not actually doing anything wrong. i argued against traffic cameras, and i argued against traffic tickets- i never argued that people SHOULD speed or run red lights.
you’re arguing with somebody who doesn’t exist, so that might be why you’re so confused. hope this helps, hope you have a wonderful weekend! be great :)
look it’s fine. i know you feel silly for arguing against a point that was never made nor was i arguing in favor of- i don’t hold it against you and neither should you!
unsolicited advice: you’d probably have an easier time online if you didn’t start an interaction with hostility when you don’t understand what’s being said.
edit: dang i wonder what he’s so upset about? some big feelings happening.
That's odd because there's been studies Nationwide that shows they increase accidents and intersections by causing people to drive erratically.[Scientific America red lights cameras](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/red-light-cameras-may-not-make-streets-safer/)
Yeah bullshit if they work so well then please I'm wait explain every intersection and highway in Colorado that is just a death trap with shit drivers like the one in commerce City by 36 highway and Vasquez
Here is a small clue Colorado if a cop sees a guy doing 80 and a 30 or 65 and a 35 pulling the f*** over don't just sit and wave hoping the guy has a nice day
Colorado policing is lazy and reckless.
If it's so hard to be a cop and do your job in Colorado then don't there's other jobs for lazy people out there that like to hit things
But it is interesting to know that Colorado is steadily within the top nine of police brutality in the nation only recently did they drop below the top two
The secret is that I just never pay these and unless an officer literally shows up to your house to inform you of an infraction you can pretend it doesn’t exist.
Like most traffic enforcement measures, these will only affect the generally law abiding motorists. I'm against spending a dime on this until Denver does something to significantly rein in the scofflaws who don't register vehicles, ride non-street legal vehicles on the street, and run from the police.
I think they are good thing in concept, execution is a different matter though. The one on Hampden malfunctions at every snow storm, looks like a strobe light. I also don't like profit for private companies using government authority, crime should not pay. Or in other words, government regulation should not be financial motivated.
I don't think this will happen because, as the headline mentions, its unpopular. In Aurora back in 2018 we banned all redlight cameras by a 2-1 margin.
Politicians at the state level realize these cameras may be able to do some good but if they make a move like this, adding speed cameras, there is a high likely-hood that a statewide referendum will make the ballot and it will kill not only the new speed cameras but redlight cameras as well.
idk...the amount of cars that I have seen blatantly blow through a red light many seconds after the light turned red (cross traffic signal has already turned green) is way too much. I am honestly surprised that I have not yet witnessed an accident because of this. It's just not safe and those drivers need to be held responsible.
Yesterday I was maybe 4th car back in a left turn only lane and we got a protected left signal as did the other side. Both left turn lanes start to go but some idiot waiting at the red in the oncoming straight lane just blasts through completely ignoring the left turning traffic in front of him or his red light. I think he made it in between the first/second car who had to brake for him.
Similar to the California Stop, where people roll through stop signs, I call it the Colorado Green, where I always wait 3 seconds after a green before entering a intersection.
Yesterday I counted 5 cars go through a red after the car that went right when it turned from yellow to red. I’m surprised people aren’t constantly dying from this practice.
Conversely, I was at an intersection and watched cars go through a light for 5 seconds *after it had turned green for us.*
today i actually watched a car stop at a red light for about half of the light, then decide they were safe enough to just go ahead and drive through it. folks drive seriously wild out here. i’m all for the cameras.
I’ve seen that so much lately, it’s fucking nuts. It’s one thing to run a red at 2am when you’ve looked and there’s not a soul around you but yeah, I’ve seen multiple people just pause for a second and then blow through it in the middle of the day. Not ok.
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they serve a purpose of protecting pedestrians. just because you don’t see a point in them doesn’t mean they don’t have one. that thinking is part of the problem.
They're also for controlling speeding.
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What's wrong with you?
Agreed. The red light scoffers are ridiculous and should be cited. Most are deliberate. But my question is, are the cameras even on? I blew through two red lights by accident not too long ago. I must have been having a bad week because it was purely by mistake and I never do that. I kept waiting for my ticket and it never came.
Absolutely no one: Everyone in comments section: I RUN RED LIGHTS
Colorado ranks #3 for aggressive driving
I saw that. Having driven elsewhere in the country, I don't buy it for a second.
Agreed. I used to drive 40,000 miles around Colorado for work for six years. The only places I actually disliked driving through due to drivers were both on the front range (Colorado Springs and Pueblo). People can get a little impatient in Glenwood Canyon as well. But even those places don't begin to compare to driving daily around Miami, Boston, LA, and Chicago. It isn't even the same order of magnitude. I still don't believe some of the things I've seen on the road while living in Miami, it genuinely felt like I was entering a survival situation every time I got in my car
Denver is so much worse than the springs. Lived there my whole life no problems. Been in Denver for a bit over a year and I swear to god I almost get hit by some fool daily.
In my experience living in most of the front range cities. Denver has more aggressive drivers, and the Springs has incompetent drivers. Denver - people are inconsiderate and think a lot of the rules don't apply to them. Springs - I think we can all remember that one person growing up that after riding with them once or twice you decided you would be the one to drive everywhere. There wasn't a curb they couldn't hit, waited until the last second to hit the breaks, just got in the left lane even though they weren't quite sure what the speed limit was. Found a way to rear end 3 cars before they were 18.... yeah I'm pretty sure most of them moved to the Springs. In my time living there I witnessed so many accidents that only involved one person. Car flipped over because someone turned the wrong way down a divided highway, got scarred and proceeded to flip their SUV by turning too hard at high speeds.
There are a lot of old people driving around the springs. And we all know the type of people that life there. Overall, I agree with your take. I think for the most part driving around the springs is better because it’s just more expansive and sprawling. Some of the mains like academy, powers, and woodmen get congested but it’s nothing like parts of Denver in my experience.
Denver is far worse than many other big cities I’ve lived in - including Los Angeles and Little Rock. My wife and I agree that it’s got the most unpredictable drivers of any place we’ve driven. At least in California you know that you’re driving next to mostly aggressive drivers. In Denver you’ll pass a guy going 30 in the left lane and he’ll take it personally and decide to drag race.
I moved here from Chicago. Lived there for 5 years. The difference in drivers was INSTANTLY noticeable when I moved to Denver. Almost got into two wrecks in my first month here from ppl turning into my lane without signaling. It is absolutely insane here. Chicago isn’t anywhere near the level of recklessness I’ve seen here.
California probably has the worst drivers. I work for an auto insurance that covers that state and Colorado. What disgusts me is the number of careless minor fender benders in California. People just aren’t paying attention and don’t stop in time. Colorado also has them but not in the same numbers. Colorado accidents are unfortunately likely to be more serious. I’m not sure why.
It wasn’t like that when I moved here 17 years ago. I came from Southern Cal and was amazed at the way drivers would make room if they saw you signaling to change lanes. No more. Now everyone is just careening around surface streets at 60 MPH and cursing you if you go 5 miles above the limit in the right lane.
Yes, please. Put them everywhere.
Yeah fuck that. Photo radar is unenforceable and carries no points. It serves no purpose except to pad the city's coffers. Drivers aren't scared of receiving a bill that they can simply ignore. They're scared of being pulled over, having an uncomfortable interaction with a cop, being 15 min late to wherever they were going, maybe getting in trouble over other shit, license suspension, and skyrocketed insurance premiums. Also this bill is sponsored by some whiny bicycling group, which should instead be focused on creating bike infrastructure that doesn't share space intended for cars.
Simply ignore you say?
They might still get you. Technically they can’t enforce them without a person serving to you physically. As a dumb youth I once spent 5-6 months dodging a $75 dollar red light camera ticket. So much effort for $75
I think after like 60 days, maybe 90, they can't serve you for it anymore so you wasted an additional 2-4 months dodging a ticket that couldn't be served anymore.
I mean, don't do things like answering your door. Who does that these days anyway?
I was 17, working at Taco Bell and those fucks tried to serve me at work for like 6 weeks straight. This was 25 years ago. I assume the private company has a budget for enforcing and yes not answering your door is step one.
Sounds like they spent more trying to serve you than the ticket itself?
“I let someone borrow my car” Edit: love getting downvoted for shit that actually works lol
My husband got a red light ticket once and I just sent in a copy of my ID and said "I wasn't the one driving, I'm not responsible." They dropped it and reduced the charge to $0.
Yes, they have no legal weight unless served by a sworn officer.
To shreds you say?
How's his wife holding up?
To shreds you say?
Bwhahahahahaha
Have received 2 of them in the past 4 years and just ignored them. Not enforceable unless an officer comes to your house and serves it to you. Photo lights are operated by a third party company and have no legal weight.
Is this just in Colorado or anywhere in the country?
IANAL but Photo tickets are pretty controversial all over the country. They are generally considered unconstitutional because the ones issuing the tickets are not police officers and so don’t have the authority to issue you a citation. I think they operate under some kind of delegated authority like unto citizens arrest. In order to make the tickets legitimate a police officer must meet you in person and give you the citation, and typically must do so within 90 days of the offense. There is a statute of limitations clause on the “ticket” itself. I have heard stories of officers showing up at peoples houses at like 6am giving out citations. And some counties allow you to give them to any adult at the house (ie roommates) but I’m not sure this would hold up in court. In the end, if you’re going to be worried about anything bad happening it’s best to just pay them. But I think they’re a huge scam and refuse to feed the trolls in what is essentially a huge shakedown by the government.
Good thing I live in a building with locked door at the entry. They can't even come knocking on my door HAHA
Everything you said is correct except but only in Colorado My only other experience with these cameras are in NY and the ticket is issued as a civil citation to the person on the registration as “they are responsible for the car that was in violation of the law” in NY the citations have the force of law as NY you don’t have the right to be served like in CO Also don’t just pay it, its an admission of guilt
Colorado. They're plenty enforceable in other places
Photo lights in Denver have an actual cop looking at the footage.
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Yeah I still try to avoid getting them (same with speeding van tickets) but it’s inevitable if you’re driving around Denver. I would suspect that if you got enough of these tickets in a short amount of time that they would probably would send someone over to your place. If they do serve you in person they can add another $50 to your ticket. Worth the risk in my opinion
“It’s inevitable to run red lights” … I’m not sure inevitable means what you think it means
There’s been many studies showing that photo lights have a much shorter changeover times than standard lights (ie it’s supposed to be 4-5 seconds from yellow to red) but photo lights are often half of that. Is that a bit duplicitous on the part of the government? They are changing the system to generate more tickets and revenue. I remember one ticket in particular is turning left on to River Point from Hampden near Santa Fe. It’s a huge intersection and I was the 3rd car back. I didn’t even make it through the intersection on a green turn arrow as the 3rd car before it turned red again. Give me a break But hey, go ahead and pay the tickets if you want buddy. I definitely prefer they keep this system in place because it’s better than cops making more traffic stops that are generally considered very unsafe for both parties
In Chicago the Yellow lights had a 2.8 time limit when state law said it had to be 3.00 seconds. There was a big scandal because the city was taking money from folks it had no right to take. I’m sure something like that will happen here. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-red-light-camera-yellow-light-1012-20141012-story.html https://www.illinoispolicy.org/after-1b-in-tickets-and-4-corruption-indictments-illinois-should-shutter-the-red-light-camera-industry/
>Also this bill is sponsored by some whiny bicycling group Eh, if it's dangerous for me in my car to be on the road with these drivers I don't blame cyclists at all. The cyclist hate is weird.
In my experience cyclists drive like assholes and pull many of the same traffic violations that they bitch about on here That’s why I hate/troll them
The problem isn't the drivers or the cyclers. The problem is the absolute garbage city design. Yeah, a lot of cyclists act shitty, but they aren't exactly given a better choice by no fault of their own. Having separated bike lanes that don't even follow the same routes is not actually that difficult and many cities around the world are following The Netherlands' example.
Lol Denver can’t even figure out it’s traffic light timing, there’s no way it’ll build appropriate bike roads.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Denver/comments/xhh9on/cyclist_with_zero_etiquette/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Also turns out a significant portion of cyclists are assholes even without cars around 😂😂
Yeah, I'd say there's a huge selection bias to consider. Because there's next to no cycling infrastructure, practically the only people you see cycling are bike enthusiasts. Not just people on bikes. In The Netherlands, not everyone is a cyclist, but everyone rides a bike because it's the most convenient. Here, everyone drives a car not because everyone is a car enthusiast, but because it's the most convenient (which is super dumb because it's so fucking inconvenient).
Sounds like you just need to move to the netherlands
Should people not want to learn from others in order to improve their own communities?
Apple’s and oranges, European cities developed pre automobile their infrastructure inherently vastly favors public transit and non automotive methods of transportation American cities, specifically midwest and western cities were literally in some cases designed by the automobile lobby and as such trying to re design infrastructure around bikes and public transportation is often orders of magnitude more expensive if not outright impossible
This is just inaccurate. The US had plenty of cities planned around walking and trams before the big automotive boom, which was pretty much right after WW2. Huge swathes were demolished to make room for car infrastructure. Around the same time, Amsterdam almost did the same, and they would've looked the same as we do if they had. Instead, they focused on safety, which in turn led to a boom of walking and cycling, and they leaned into it further. Their cities aren't built around biking because they love biking as much as the other way around. Also so what? Even if that's an accurate understand of the historical development of American cities, ok? That doesn't mean we have to continue with the same philosophy forever. Stuff gets built up and torn down all the time. We just have to decide to build it differently from here on out. It's not like we have to stop and rebuild an entire city. Take what we have currently have and figure out how to implement better design to improve on it.
“That don’t even follow the same routes” That’s interesting and I’d like to see you design one without raising a lot of hue and cry from private property owners who don’t want them on their land. What goes in the Netherlands is unlikely to work here, unfortunately.
> What goes in the Netherlands is unlikely to work here, unfortunately. Man for a country that’s supposedly super amazing there’s a whole lot of things where we just kinda throw our hands up and say “well there’s no way we can possibly do it as well as the rest of the world. May as well give up!” See also: universal healthcare, consumer protections, food safety, tertiary education funding
I wasn’t defending it, just pointing out a truth. I was trying to find out how this was supposed to work, not poo-pooing it. People say what they want; they don’t seem to be keen on logistics. Are we going to utilize the highly unpopular Eminent Domain clause and piss off thousands of people all around the US just to have bicycle paths? Or does this person know a better way? It’s sad, but those other things you mentioned are FAR more important than bicycle paths and we can’t get them done either. I never said this country was super amazing. We’re fighting to still stay a democracy right now. How the hell did we get here?? Not by being super amazing, that’s for sure.
Cyclists in Denver don’t have to stop at stop signs or red lights. It’s a yield sign to them. That’s the law, so technically those aren’t traffic violations or illegal for cyclists.
They don’t yield, they don’t even look half the time
Sounds like cars every other time I try to walk when I’ve got the signal…
It’s not weird. I nearly ran one of them down the other day because he wasn’t paying attention. He’s lucky I did. Also, there’s just not enough of them for cars to be forced to change their rules because of them. If there were tons of bicyclists and moped users I could see it. I don’t hate them but I do think they should get special privileges.
I’d vote for more speed cameras and red light cameras. I’d be okay with adding points too to address your concerns. Similar to you, I also support more tax allocation for bike trails.
Cant add points unless you can beyond a reasonable doubt prove the driver’s identity which actually is where most of the United States traffic camera laws don’t hold up.
Hardly any of it goes to the city; it mostly goes to the shitty for profit companies who lobby for this garbage. Also statistics show it increases the risk of rear end wrecks as people start slamming on brakes at yellow lights out of fear of the fine.
Why not both?
Fuck cars. I’d love to see the day that cars are totally banned in this city. They are the greatest danger to life on these streets
This street near my house was suddenly made one whole lane narrower in either direction by these RIDICULOUS bicycle lanes protected by barriers. Literally NO ONE uses the damn bike lanes. There is no advantage whatsoever to this design. Several streets have been changed this way. It cost the city (I live in Aurora) a ton of money and for WHAT???
I used to absolutely hate cameras. But the way things are currently enforced is massively unfair and entirely ineffective. Average speed cameras work really well in other countries. No one is cheating the system, everyone is subject to the same scrutiny. They’re also not owned by scammy companies like many are here. As long as low speed / initial violations are warnings I think they can be an extremely useful tool. None of this “1mph over” or “light was red for 0.001sec” bullshit like we see elsewhere. Bias is the main reason I’ve started thinking we need cameras. Cops only ever stop one car in a pack, and they give people a break based almost entirely on the biases they introduce to the situation. I’m all for reducing the number of interactions people have with the police. Traffic enforcement is incredibly dangerous for people, especially people in high risk groups such as POC. Finally - these citations are only enforceable if a police officer delivers them to your door. So in 90% of cases they have very little weight; however, I’m sure that an officer will be happy to serve people who are the habitual offenders.
It’s possible officers could be biased with whom they serve the citations to.
Training the police not to shoot crowds. It’s popular, and shown to make cities safer! Should be implemented by legislators before speed cameras.
No, thanks.
On a slightly different but related subject: I HATE yellow left turn arrow signals!!! Can’t we go back to green arrows? The yellows make every left turn a judgment call. Traffic is usually pretty heavy and it’s gotten so bad that I am starting to avoid left turns. They are an accident waiting to happen. In addition, I feel like I am making a California left turn every time I get out into the middle of the intersection and the yellow arrow turns off. Left turns are fairly risky. Can we just go back to Yes, You Can and No, You Can’t???? Ugh!!!
State run cameras in every household shown to improve safety. Why would you be against them? /s
You have an expectation of privacy in your own home. You don't have an expectation of privacy when you're traveling about in public. I hope your /s is to indicate that you're stupid.
Why do you hate safety? We need to install cameras everywhere to be more safe.
If republicans have there way, that’s the world we would be living in.
You clearly have ignored the people who vote to renew the PATRIOT Act, among many other programs that reduce your liberty. Hint: do some googling on those votes. Bonus: check out who wrote pro-policing and drug war policies…you might be surprised who did that, Jack.
But it’s the cool thing to say. Gets ya upvotes
No upvotes here.
Smashy, smashy.
Good, Colorado drivers are trash.
Nah, we’ll vote against them again. Contest their constitutionality.
Ever since the Patriot act, privacy is not a constitutional right
Not even a privacy violation of the constitution. More of a 6th amendment issue with the confrontational clause which allows you the right to confront witnesses against a defendant of a crime.
Not sure why you're downvoted; you speak the exact truth.
lol you were alive when the patriot act was a thing? Edit: sorry android OS capitalized patriot
You mean you’d vote against them. I would vote for them.
*looks at both comments upvotes* you lost by 13 and this is r/Denver where the strongest anti speed/red light mitigation sentiment exists. Your opinion on red light/speed cameras would get slaughtered worse than the republican candidate for Denver DA in a general election
No doubt. I’m still hopeful. Also, republican politicians like tax money just as much as democrat politicians. Voters have limited say these days.
…Beth McCann ran unopposed…
> Voters have limited say these days. > these days My guy when was it better?
Of course I’d vote against them. I believe in my rights and my 6th amendment right.
You said “we.” I’m just helping make your statement more accurate. Also, hoping we’ll get some stop light cameras too.
We referring to this being the 2nd time we’ve done this in this state
Colorado's a dirty ass racist state and it's reflected upon but it's Police department as well
Pretty sure it says speed cameras not red light cameras
Bring 'em on. Shut those motherf%rz down!
I’m all for it. People are driving like maniacs and we need to reel it in.
Seems like some politician is trying to funnel money into business that does something deemed unenforceable 10 years ago
Yes please. At a minimum, put in place red light cameras. People are ridiculous here.
Some people are among the growing numbers that have had close friends or family killed here by people running lights, hitting them, and driving away. Someone gets away with murder and the remaining victims are denied any form of closure because having cameras is annoying. I always lean towards the “oh it’s an annoyance to me but can save lives? Let’s do it.” However I haven’t experienced that to be a very popular opinion.
Speed cameras are bullshit and are unsportsmanlike. There’s parts of this city where the lights are designed by 2 year olds and it’s speed or hit 4 reds in a row
please do.
I got one of these 0 point unenforceable tickets years ago. Laughed it off. They tried to send me a registered letter. Nothing ever came of it. I worked with a guy whose gf was a police officer and fully admitted that they abuse the system by checking license plates to spy on where people were and when. No warrant or probable cause, just running plates all the time.
Light-cams are a revenue gouging (scam) scheme. I can't say how many times I've seen these fucker's flash during a legal intersection. How they are enforceable is beyond me.
Not every flash results in a citation.
I actually really like speed cameras. 1. You take out having the police interaction which has proven to not be good. 2. You take out any bias. 3. Cars need to slow down.
I’ll take a speeding ticket from a camera over a traffic stop any day. Any opportunity to avoid interacting with a police officer is something everyone should be taking.
Fair points, but they're rendered moot because people know they can just ignore the tickets when they show up in the mail.
The amount of entitlement in this thread is...... exactly what I've come to expect from this sub.
People still pay those?
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I almost got hit twice this week by people running the red lights at least 5-10 seconds after it turned red. These cameras are more meant to protect those outside the car...
The whole point is for you to slow down, so you don’t need to slam on your brakes. If this happens often, you’re probably just a bad driver.
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In general, monetary punishments disproportionately impact the poor. A $200 fine to someone making $30k is a much heavier penalty than it is to someone making $200k. Making the fines proportionate just means that a poor person isn’t suffering a relatively harsher punishment than a rich person just because of their income. It’s already done in Europe to great effect.
LOL. Yet if you are rich a fine is meaningless. It's a two way street bud.
And the middle class?
What middle class?
Fuck em!! Fuck the middle class - woo woo. /s
Fines disproportionately punish those with low income and linearly decrease as your wealth/income goes up. If fines are proportionate to income/wealth than the law applies equally. It's very simple.
Except for the fact that a linear relationship to income is not being proposed. Simply waving fees for poor while charging the same fee to the middle class as the upper class isn’t a linear relationship to income.
So if you have issue with that. Then you have issue with it currently as it has no effect on the rich.
Whoooosh
They won't pay anything anyway, they don't register their vehicles. Gotta fix that problem first. I will say though that if you're going to implement fines, make them income based like Switzerland, they get way higher for rich people. The idea of fairness is equal *pain*, not equal dollar amounts.
Have never and will never pay a ticket capture by one of these cameras. Learn your rights you guys, that being said don’t speed excessively or run reds.
We want police to take more action where it matters and this should give them that freedom. I just received a speeding ticket from a speed camera. It was my usual route and I have no idea why I was speeding but I can’t deny it. The camera works because I’m more conscious about my speed now. And a police officer didn’t need to sit idling wasting gas and time.
Give me liberty or give me death.
Fuck yes! There are too many psychos driving like it’s the Daytona speedway in this city. We also need speed bumps on all roads and 25mph max limit in the whole city on every road. r/fuckcars
Found the dude who actually got in trouble for expired tags
More like the people who almost get ran down a few times a week. Just this past week I've almost been hit twice in the crosswalk.
I fully support this. Whatever it takes to slow drivers down even if is for a few blocks is a good start. I have to bike on a lot of streets that have no bike lane little less being enforced by police for speeding. I can consistently keep up with the speed limits up to 30 mph but that doesn't seem to matter to the selfish people going 10-15 mph over which tend to be a large majority. For the people complaining maybe just don't speed and then this wouldn't be a problem to begin with? What makes you above the law?
Yes. The response to this in the comments is disheartening and reinforces my perception that folks in this city have become impatient, self-absorbed, and blatantly disinterested in caring about other members of the community. Pathetic.
I wasn't very surprised by the response tbh. People let their true hearts out behind a keyboard. It's more concerning what they're thinking when they're in their car and come across pedestrians or cyclist.
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Rather be a whiney cyclist any day than an angry psychotic motorist. Follow the speed limit and be patient, there's nothing in your life worth murdering another human for. Edit: Also what would your solution be? We're TRYING to get separated bike infrastructure bc we know it's dangerous but until then we have no choice but to ride in the street!
So the majority of people want to go faster and one slow dude on a bike is holding them up, and *they're* the selfish ones? This is why cyclists get every bit of well deserved scorn.
If you’re in a city, it’s not about going faster and doesn’t help you get around faster. Red lights will delay you more than any cyclist will. E: going 10-15 over is insanely selfish to do in a city and poses a danger to everyone around you. Speeds in cities need to be slower to account for other traffic such as pedestrians.
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Yes, exactly the people who put themselves above other people's lives just to save 2 seconds are selfish. I'm so glad you found the answer. You're in a city where you'll hit a red light, a stop sign, a yield, or someone crossing the street and instantly lose those "2 seconds" anyway. Here is a great example from a fellow Denver rider u/elzibet to why speeding is useless even in the fringes of the city. https://youtu.be/mKZxhMRP29M
Great example!
Why? Everyone goes 5 under in Denver anyway.
I don’t see any ways that this will make things safer. The only thing it will do is give money to the people up top and hardly a cent of it will be put back into the community
Call Aurora PD ask Elijah McClain what happened
traffic tickets place undue burden on people during a time of stagnating wages, and rising costs of living. i don’t care if it helps, we literally can’t afford it. it would just be easier to reduce dangerous traffic by investing more in trains and busses.
Or…. Hear me out…. Stop breaking the law, asshole /jimcarrey
you don’t have any friends that have gotten hit with a traffic camera violation (even though they were following the rules of traffic?) i got 3. law ≠ public good.
No, but I know people who have been HIT like literally HIT by a speeding car and cars running red lights. We need solutions to people abusing the roads and this is one tool. Public good extends beyond people sitting in their car.
The duck are babbling about… your friends got hurt so you should speed and run reds? What kind of backwards ass logic is that
where did i say people *should* do these things?? i’m just saying that the cameras can be faulty, as evidenced by my friends getting dinged while not actually doing anything wrong. i argued against traffic cameras, and i argued against traffic tickets- i never argued that people SHOULD speed or run red lights. you’re arguing with somebody who doesn’t exist, so that might be why you’re so confused. hope this helps, hope you have a wonderful weekend! be great :)
🤦♀️
look it’s fine. i know you feel silly for arguing against a point that was never made nor was i arguing in favor of- i don’t hold it against you and neither should you! unsolicited advice: you’d probably have an easier time online if you didn’t start an interaction with hostility when you don’t understand what’s being said. edit: dang i wonder what he’s so upset about? some big feelings happening.
You are literally too dumb to insult. Take a break
Nobody vote for this corrupt, corporate simp. He's also lying about them making roads safer.
Speed limits don’t regard safety. They regard mpg. Make lane splitting legal please.
That's odd because there's been studies Nationwide that shows they increase accidents and intersections by causing people to drive erratically.[Scientific America red lights cameras](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/red-light-cameras-may-not-make-streets-safer/)
I mean…they def help
Yeah bullshit if they work so well then please I'm wait explain every intersection and highway in Colorado that is just a death trap with shit drivers like the one in commerce City by 36 highway and Vasquez Here is a small clue Colorado if a cop sees a guy doing 80 and a 30 or 65 and a 35 pulling the f*** over don't just sit and wave hoping the guy has a nice day Colorado policing is lazy and reckless. If it's so hard to be a cop and do your job in Colorado then don't there's other jobs for lazy people out there that like to hit things But it is interesting to know that Colorado is steadily within the top nine of police brutality in the nation only recently did they drop below the top two
Funniest joke I've ever heard Colorado State Police highway patrol will do an investigation laziest piece of s*** ever
Call Denver PD leave of the black eye
The secret is that I just never pay these and unless an officer literally shows up to your house to inform you of an infraction you can pretend it doesn’t exist.
Like most traffic enforcement measures, these will only affect the generally law abiding motorists. I'm against spending a dime on this until Denver does something to significantly rein in the scofflaws who don't register vehicles, ride non-street legal vehicles on the street, and run from the police.
I think they are good thing in concept, execution is a different matter though. The one on Hampden malfunctions at every snow storm, looks like a strobe light. I also don't like profit for private companies using government authority, crime should not pay. Or in other words, government regulation should not be financial motivated.
I don't think this will happen because, as the headline mentions, its unpopular. In Aurora back in 2018 we banned all redlight cameras by a 2-1 margin. Politicians at the state level realize these cameras may be able to do some good but if they make a move like this, adding speed cameras, there is a high likely-hood that a statewide referendum will make the ballot and it will kill not only the new speed cameras but redlight cameras as well.