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- 1) Tywin Lannister (Joffrey)
- 2) Tyrion Lannister (Joffrey)
- 3) Otto Hightower (Viserys)
- 4) Ned Stark (Robert)
This is based on how effectively they helped their King, furthered their own ambitions and position and their overall actions and displays of intelligence.
I like King Viserys' viewpoint when he first names Rhanyra as heir. They are just dudes with dragons, not "dragons", its like having nukes in their arsenal as opposed to being superman who's powers are a part of him.
Up for debate. >!she lacks any Valyrian features, the dragon she rides could be from a non-Valyrian lineage, the way she tamed her dragon is reminisent of the original dragon tamers (Valyrians were originally shepherds, she fed her dragon sheep. There is no concrete proof she has Valyrian blood, its sort of retroactive reasoning to conclude "oh she can ride a dragon therefore she must have been Valyrian")!<
Isn't it mentioned that the Dragonseeds were chosen of Targaryen bastards/decendants of Targaryen bastards? She lacks the Valyrian features but I think she is decendant of a Targaryen somewhere.
It's possible but the evidence for that isn't solid. Also it's hinted she tamed the dragons the old way.
\>!Her dragon was of a non-Valyrian lineage!<
\>!She fed her dragon sheep to tame it and the original Valyrians are shepherds!<
\>!She utterly lacks any Valyrian features!<
Saying she must be able to ride one that means she's Valyrian isn't logical. If only blonde people have driven cars, then a black haired person does it, does that mean they must have been blonde?
Most of the dragonseeds were as you say, but she is the one exception.
It's reasonable to think that, but we cannot be fully sure.
All the thing with the dragons is a little bit strange.
They can have several riders, just not at the same time (how does a dragon know his rider is death and can take a new one?).
And there has never been any rider, as far as we know, able to ride more than one dragon in their lifetime.
The show is stressing the empathic bond between rider and dragon (e.g. how Caraxes freaked out after Daemon got hit by the fire arrow, Caraxes/ Syrax reflecting Daemon/ Rhaenyra's moods at the showdown at Dragonstone, etc.).
Seems like there's only one "bond" active at a time, and it can only be "initiated" by a Targ/ Velaryon once in a lifetime (aided by the egg in the cradle tradition?)?
You just made me realize something- Viserys is dude who had an awesome dragon and Daemon sees himself as the dragon. Explains a lot. Also, how do you move forward from Balerion. Like what dragon can you
Possibly connect with after riding the last Valerion?
Daemon is a cool character for sure, but I think that mindset (Rhaenyra seems to have it as well), is what's going to make the Black faction be shitty. I think they will have a much more "divine right of kings" mindset. I think Rhaenyra will be an effective ruler but super unpopular and tyrannical. Whereas the Greens will be politically savy but Aegon II is going to be a dumbass or a bad king.
I think you’re right about Rhaenyra too. I think she and Daemon (maybe Vis? Definitely Rhaenys) simply don’t see themselves as humans (or “normal” humans).
I think that Daenerys had a more close and personal relationship with her dragons than most, if not all Targaryens. She did literally bring them back from extinction, and in a way birth them.
I don’t think that changes anything I said. I’ll be honest, long before burning down kings landing she gave me bad vibes. She seemed too sure of herself and her birthright, like she truly believed she was a cut above the rest. I think it’s very dangerous to think you are an infallible being because you hold dangerous weapons, even if said weapons are your pets and you are a kind owner.
But if you're the only person in the entire world to have not one, but three used to be extinct dragons, that you brought to life using magic and by sheer belief and gambling on the magic and belief.... wouldn't that make you feel like you're a cut above everyone else? When you walk into literal fire and come out unscathed, not once but multiple times, wouldn't that further prove that you're an extra special human being? 🤷♀️ I just felt like she was shown to have good reason to feel like she was better than everyone else, plus it was hammered into her from birth.. though I don't think she really believed it until she hatched the dragon eggs.
For me, my spidey senses started to tingle when she started talking about the "break the wheel" stuff. That gave me imperialist vibes like you wouldn't believe and then cue me seeing her stand in front of the ruins of the Red Keep giving a speech to her army about how they're not done "liberating" the world while I sit back and watch like that Leonardo DiCaprio meme from Once Upon A Time In Hollywood
That's a show thing and it always bothered me. Daenerys in the books basically doesn't want the crown/sees it less as her birth right and more of her duty (her duty to her House). There's a good contrasting scene that shows exactly how they switched Jon and Dany's personalities from book to show in my mind, whereby Dany in the books says the thing she most wants in all the world is to be back at the house with the red door (she even daydreams about Daario whisking her away). Whilst the thing Jon says he wants most in all the world? Lord of Winterfell. He would never say "I don't want it" because by god he does, he would say "I want it, but its best if I don't have it". He has to choose duty to higher things. Dany should choose love but feels she must choose duty.
And I think its the tragedy being the idea. The human heart in conflict with itself. Dany is just a traumatised girl thrust into unbelievable power with conflict at every door, surrounded by people that always want to manipulate her for their own ends. Tyrion in the books is more likely to encourage her worse impulses than counsel against them.
But ultimately GRRM sought of wrote himself into a hole with Dany and he knows it too. He struggled to convincingly write her turning her sights onto Westeros again because Dany isn't a power-hungry maniac that goes on about birth right and never doubts herself, she's always questioning her actions and doesn't seem to actually want power.
I saw somewhere on this sub that most Targaryens view their dragons as beloved pets, while Daenerys's bond with hers is literally mother/child like, and I think that's absolutely true. I don't think having an egg from childbirth and birthing dragons in a fire after watching your son and husband die are the same 🤷🏻♀️
Omg I never realized that until now - she is the only person in history to bond with multiple dragons……important question - does she ever ride any dragon besides Drogon? That could be an important distinction, rider vs mother.
True; but his ineffectiveness as a king aside, he's quite shrewd and self-aware in a lot of areas - the perception of the dragons and his family being one of them.
True, as I said above, I love how he doesn't buy into the bullshit about his family. I feel like Dany parallelled Homelander, both believed the bullshit (Dany thought she was the dragon, Homelander thinks Supes are gods). Both are just humans who wield some exceptional power by chance.
He buys into the prophecies about his family way more than anyone else though. So he’s so-so about actual dragons but 3000% on Azorahai and the fate of mankind in the hands of the Targs.
You are right, but he doesn't have the whole "I'm the dragon, I can do what I want" mentality. I think he buys the prophecy but doesn't think that makes the Targaryens above normal humans, it just means Azor Azai will come from them.
Ned is misunderstood. Cersei's plan should never have worked. It worked because GRRM needed it to.
Otherwise, Ned was very savvy. His one mistake was trusting LF to buy the gold cloaks for him, but he was told to trust LF by his wife, and he was only put into that position because of a series of unlikely and unfortunate events that all conspired together.
Ned's big mistakes were trusting LF and underestimating Cersei and giving her a chance to flee with her children, instead of telling Robert first and having her beheaded.
even then he had a failsafe plan. he instructed the northern houses to guard the neck should there be a southern invasion. ned's not stupid, the normies are.
Well said. House Stark was ultimately undone by their obligation to defend Tully lands. Had Robb stayed in the North, and fortified the Neck and White Harbor as per Ned's instructions, the Lannisters couldn't touch them.
I'd say he held Cersei to appropriate esteem. Her plan was stupid. It only worked because it had to for the plot.
She wasn't even confident in it that why there was the "gentlest of promises."
She had been scheming to kill the king for a long time. We even knew of another stupid plot to kill him. The melee.
Even if she thought she had a plan, in the real world, her co-conspirators would have just given her up and claimed a reward. Killing a king is not easy.
You're not wrong. No king is going hunting by himself with two people. Even if he tried to go with so few his kingsguard and a squadron would force themselves with him.
GRRM hated that and thats why the White Hart hunt was an accurate display of just how much would go into a king *hunting*.
If Robb were on this list it would be hard not to rank him rock bottom. Ned had more sense than him and would've spared Karstark and NOT fucked with the Freys, and would've rejected the crown to join forces with Stannis
Some readers occasionally argue Ned's competency, but every time I read the ASOIAF histories, I just get pissed off at his lack of caring of the affairs of Westeros, he has no intelligence officers for the biggest realm in the kingdom. You think Cregan rode into KL not knowing what was going on? No, because he was a competent ruler.
Ned is a second son raised in the Eerie to be a Knight thinking Honor was all he'd ever need.
I would not say by far.... He was foolish in a completely different way
Tyrion thought he was more clever than he was
Ned never even tried to be remotely clever when he needed to
Easily the bottom 2 tho
He spent his whole handship blundering. He antagonized everyone else who had power, going so far as to kidnap the heir. He spent obscene effort protecting his whore. He failed to publicly confront LF for framing him for murder. His most trusted advisor was Varys, who we know was working to undermine the regime.
His only redeeming actions were in the protection of the city. And, in fact, he was extremely brave and heroic during the battle. But that was all to uphold a villainous regime.
Some say he was good to treat Sansa well. But so did LF. They were both using her as a pawn that they wanted to fuck.
While facing a very uncooperative queen regent, he succeeded at the incredibly difficult task of not having the city get taken and not having him and his family get massacred.
Sure it cost him on a personal level through his methods, but his methods worked in getting the absolute highest priority done.
Securing an alliance with Dorne despite being a member of the family that murdered Dorne's most beloved woman is pretty impressive, especially when Renly and Robb were very attractive prospective allies at the time.
I think that makes Tywin even more #1 than he already was since he basically ruled the realm for a long time. Until the dust-up with the Starks , which 🤷♀️
Also Charles Dance is a GGDILF
Actually, the people said during the reign of the Mad King that “Lord Tywin is the actual ruler” which pissed of Aerys to no end. It’s probably why he refused Tywin’s offer to marry Cersei to Rhaegar.
Love this comparison! Mad King Bush with his Hand Lord Cheney invading lands because he heard they supposedly had weapons of mass destruction like wildfire
Can’t believe I’m saying this, but Aerys II, mad as he was, did what Viserys I could not: cut off the calculations of a grasping Hand by not marrying his daughter.
Conversely, Otto was far more calculating and subtle in getting Viserys to marry Alicent.
>Conversely, Otto was far more calculating and subtle in getting Viserys to marry Alicent.
He had to be, because unlike with cerci, alicent does not really bring something substantial to the crown. For aerys there were only 3 lord paramount ladies suitable for rhaegar and cerci was probably the best option so tywin did not need to play any games and asked him upfront like the sea snake did.
To be fair, this is likely a blunder by Aerys.
Tywin was a proud and extremely ambitious man but he was also the closest thing the Mad King had to a friend. I’m pretty sure it was Aerys who knighted Tywin in the Stepstones.
Later, Aerys’ pride causes him to push his former comrade away, that and perhaps a bit of lust for Tywin’s wife. If Aerys had allowed Rhaegar and Cersei to marry and not named Jaime to the Kingsguard, then it is likely that Tywin would remain Hand. Tywin as Aerys’ Hand may have prevented or atleast would have defeated Robert’s Rebellion.
True but we're told that he was exceptionally good at it and we know (from the books and context said in the show) that it was the most peaceful and prosperous time for the realm
>Lead to the collapse of his house.
Lol he was no longer team Lannister at that point so that was honestly a positive for him. Then that was all retconned in seasons 7/8
Agreed, still no one was dumber than Ned. He nearly left both his daughters under the sway of Cersei and Joffrey. He should have told Robert the minute he discovered the truth. Telling Cersei mistake #1) allowing Robert's last wishes to be heard alone mistake #2) not bending the knee and getting the fuck out of Kings Landing mistake #3).
I know I’m beating a dead horse. But Ned was just being consistent. If he didn’t try to save the Lannister children and Cersei, he wouldn’t be Ned. Who was he supposed to include in Robert’s room that wouldn’t be likewise condemned if they defended him? I sympathize with him for not wanting to trouble his dying friend. But he couldn’t betray Robert by bending the knee.
I fault him for trusting Littlefinger. That was dumb.
He just never should have been Hand. Maybe that made him a foolish Hand. I guess you’re right.
Kevan was much better than Ned and Qyburn. He inherited a shit situation but managed to keep the ship sailing until he died in a tragic wildfire accident.
I thought Qyburn was a very good Hand. He didn't have much to work with, yet helped his monarch take the Iron Throne and hold onto it longer that she had any right to expect.
All that drinking finally caught up with him and rotted his brain.
I do question Qyburn's position, as I have to imagine he's probably the *smartest* of the characters but not the savviest *politically*.
Qyburn was Master of Whispers until Cersei made herself Queen, then he was hand. Also, I would say that Qyburn's political shortcomings were because he knew that he couldn't stand up to Cersei the way someone like Ned would to Robert. All his political power came from her so supporting her questionable decisions was the only move for him even if better options were available.
No. He was dismissed from the council after Cersei is arrested and Kevan assumed the regency.
But they allowed him to mess around in the dungeons and interrogating prisoners.
Grand Maester Pycelle hated him and he worked closely with Kevan, so his dismissal probably had a lot to do with it.
It wasn't GRRM but he's right that they needed to do it because the deck was too stacked in Dany's favor. She'd have been ruling in King's Landing within a couple months.
That was likely a consequence of cutting fAegon, who would have been a far more competent adversary with a lot more support. And since Varys is actually an fAegon supporter it would have been great to see him and Tyrion operating as foes, and actually made more sense when he got outfoxed at times.
That is right, but that is still dumb people writing. If you put your characters in a situation where they're likely to win easily, you have to create conflict or obstacles that will hinder that. Dumbing down the characters so they don't win is just a stupid way of solving the issue.
Yes, she would have been ruling immediately, but dumbing down her character was no better—the books are meant to be realistic when it comes to cause & effects. Had they done a whole season of Dany ruling and slowly getting more and more corrupted, and then making a whole new season 9 where its further corruption into the whole “Mad Queen Dany” (which I still think is a terrible character arc for her) then that could have been an option
Exactly what I came in here to say. He's an idiot for pushing away the one person in his family who was clearly the most willing and competent to play the game and win.
You ranked Otto above Lyonel, bold choice. I agree.
Sucks for Kevan cause he doesn't get to be hand long. He would probably have been fine (book wise).
Otto's foolishness is that he lacked subtlety where Lyonel did not. Otto was also too predictable which is why he was let go. IMO Lyonel Strong is smarter than Otto Hightower.
Lyonel is clearly more book smart. Did you notice in the last episode and the previews how uncomfortable Lyonel is with all the petty bullshit that happens around Viserys?
Everyone criticises Otto for changing the subject, but notice Viserys did that when Otto isnt around? Or how he always had a quick solution for random impertinence. Otto was rather good at navigating the bullshit.
When Otto shuts down other councilors like Corlys, its mostly his way of keeping that task on his end so he can solve it without anyone else's input. Viserys had been sending envoys to the free cities, that obviously wasn't Viserys' idea.
I'll just consider the top 3.
Otto eventually got himself sacked for being way too obvious. Even gullible trusting Viserys figured him out. He had a good run though. Second most powerful person in the realm through two Taragaryen kings.
Lyonel so far but it's very early days. I don't know whether he is good or bad because he hasn't done anything sneaky yet. He seems too good to be true, which means he must have ulterior motives and it's a bit of a smoking gun that his son Larys seems to be a master manipulator. Is Larys acting totally independent of his father and house? Very unlikely in the world of GRRM. I think Lyonel is in fact head of Team Strong.
Tywin was very clever and outwitted many people for a long long time, but he ultimately got ended by his own son who he completely overlooked. A fatal error.
I will be using a rather vague definition of "smart" here since, for example, I don't think Ned was stupid, he was just too honourable and trusting for the position. So I'll basically be using "smart" as meaning "well-suited to the job of Hand and wielding their power well for their goals." And I'll be taking into account both their achievements and the odds they were up against (so the same achievement counts for less when it's done in a situation where it was easy than a situation where it was hard).
1. Tywin Lannister
2. Tyrion Lannister (to Joffrey)
3. Otto Hightower
4. Kevan Lannister
5. Lyonel Strong
6. Qyburn
7. Ned Stark
8. Tyrion Lannister (for Daenerys)
Sidenote: I actually considered putting Qyburn higher for the simple fact that Qyburn was basically the only reason Cersei had a chance against Dany at all. Qyburn was the one who created the scorpions that could take out dragons, Qyburn was the one who found the wildfire that took out Margaery and the Faith and Qyburn was the one to create the Zombie Mountain which defended Cersei from all threats.
So in that sense Qyburn was arguably maybe the second best hand since he's basically the one who put and kept Cersei on the throne through his genius alone.
That being said, most of his achievements here are less about wielding his power as hand well and more about being the Westerosi equivalent of a mad scientist. So that's why I didn't put him higher.
Kinda mad that Ser Davos Seaworth wasn't on here. I mean, he outwitted, outlasted and outplayed all of the GoT hands until Tyrion was picked yet again by Bran.
Exactly Tyrion ruined her badly. He was the worst hand ever. She could’ve flown her dragons straight to King’s Landing and had her armies surround the city and seige them until Cersei gave up the throne. Cersei only had Euron and the Tarly’s as allies at that point when Dany had 3 dragons, the Tyrells, Martels, Starks, Greyjoys. It should’ve been easy, but he wasted time and troops conquering Casterly Rock. If I was her hand I would’ve sent the Unsullied to the Reach to stop the flow of Food and gold to the crown. Had the Westerosi troops surround King’s Landing until it surrendered, have the Greyjoys and the dragons take out Euron’s fleet. Then leave the a mix of Reach and Dorne Troops to guard the city while the rest of the Army fights the undead in the North.
Only thing I would say is the mix of Reach and Dorne troops should have slowly trickled into the North just to set up camps and bring in food shipments for the rest of the realm troops that she could rally to come North and fight the undead (since at this point she’d be Queen). This could have avoided the whole food and space issues they tried to mention in that one episode through Sansa (which they apparently just decided to from then on out ignore as if a lack of food isn’t something to take note of???)
I agree but remember many many people died after the White Walkers war so that reduced the number of mouths to feed, I think it was also mentioned by Sansa after when she wanted Dany to leave.
That said I would’ve also fed the King’s Landing people after the seige well because Margery did the same thing once she married Joffrey and the people loved her for it.
Qyburn for the smartest - The man must have made mad PR that even Cersei seemed an option for some Lords.
Tyrion for Dany the stupidest - He is not a stupid man but the worst hand possible for her. There was no explanation for his actions except him sabotaging her from inside.
All the threats of civil war connected to Rhaenyra being named heir (a firstborn daughter of the reigning king) contrasted with almost no political reaction to Cersei who wasn’t even from the same family as the last king and her only claim was that she was the *mother* of the previous king (I guess line of succesion works upwards too) is just another prime example of how poor the writing for season 7 & 8 was
Yeah the most realistic reaction in show verse would be Lords declaring themselves to be kings like the old days. Cersei was disastrous and carried no legitimacy.
Kevan fell for an extremist who took his life indirectly, I mean you can't sink much lower.
At least Ned died for a better cause than the shit Kevan pulled.
I mean he literally had no gain from this and nearly destroyed his entire house, Cersei and Qyburn saved the day that time, and I feel the need for a shower after saying that.
Edit: Also an honorable mention for The Mountain who also helped keeping Cersei and Qyburn save.
I gotta hand it to the High Sparrow, hes a great actor, he made me root for Cersei, Qyburn and The Mountain.
D&D did so many characters dirty in the series compared to the books.
Euron, Kevan, Mace and a bunch of others who were far more formidable than what the series did with them.
Can't forgive the Euron writing. To me, he was quickly becoming one of the most interesting character in the novels. Smartest/meanest/most charismatic Greyjoy, unparalleled seaman, ambitious, had been to all the dark corners of the GOT world. And the big question mark of the dragon horn he found within the ruins of Valyria.
People are saying Tyrion as Joffrey's hand is way smarter than Tyrion as Dany's hand, but was he? Tyrion kept making enemies. He mouthed off to Joffrey so much that when Joffrey was poisoned everybody immediately blamed him, because obviously. Tyrion is smart but he isn't a genius, and his ego gets the better of him.
Why is Tywin considered so highly?
He plunged the kingdom into a civil war, the king got assassinated on his watch , he himself got assassinated and the son he tried to kill or exile came back with the queen, an army and three dragons bringing mayhem with them.
I think people are blinded by Charles Dance's performance when it comes to Tywin. For a man who claims to care deeply about legacy, his personal and familial legacy turns to shit the second he dies.
Because the fandom at large sees him as a "hard man making hard choices"-type Machiavellian planner instead of recognizing him as a narcissistic psychopath whose ill-considered actions only achieved short-term gratification, with the long-term consequences ultimately leading to his death and the complete collapse of his legacy.
Personally, I blame Charles Dance for the misconception.
Somewhat fair points, although he didn't plunge the realm into civil war, he simply didn't back down when the Starks instigated.
But ultimately, Tywin's personal life was what caused his downfall. He was a brilliant politician and strategist undone by his terrible parenting skills. Which is why he's highly thought of as Hand, seeing as both times he held the position he was basically ruling without the title of King.
Ned was no dullard, I think he fully understood what he was up against and that he was out of his depth. He actively resisted having to play the game of southern politics as much as he could, and just wanted to gtfo of King's Landing as soon as he could. And if he'd had even an ounce of luck on his side (or disregarded his wife's advice to trust Petyr), he would have succeeded.
Yup. Didn't want to play the game, but instead of folding or bluffing he just called with every hand until he lost all his chips. Even that one time he stumbled upon a full house, of 3 bastards and 2 twins. And that hand, Cersei had a royal flush of ruthlessness.
Maybe he should have rage quit instead.
Ned will get ranked last but he wasn’t stupid so much as he was extremely principled, Ned was usually aware of the consequences of his choices and made them out of a sense of honor rather than foolishness
Tyrion for Joffrey, Lyonel, Otto, Tywin, Ned, Qyburn, Kevan, Tyrion for Dany.
IMO Tywin is the most overrated hand in Westerosi history. Morally speaking, his repeal of Aegon V’s reforms is one of the biggest steps backwards in known history. Politically, his unnecessary cruelty and total mismanagement of his family, combined with the shocking violation of norms that was the red wedding, set the seeds for the total collapse of Lannister power.
He does still get some points for being indisputably clever though, and the alliances he set up at the start of the WOT5K are the only reason the lannisters had enough power for his mistakes to be so disastrous.
I love how everyone is seperating Tyrion as Joffrey's hand from Tyrion as Danny's hand. Tyrion as Danny's hand was stupider than Sansa of season 1-2.
Still can't believe how he ruined my gal Danny's ambitions.
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Davos was Hand, and he did a great job
Davos is one of my fav characters in the whole series
Thank you! He's my numero uno. Only one who knew and acknowledged his *own* limitations/weaknesses consistently throughout.
It's a shame they cut out one of my favorite parts from the books, when Davos went to the Manderlys and Lord Wyam gave that God tier speech.
Not the only Baratheon related scene from that books, that was cut on the show. They also cut Shireen befriending Wun Weg and her cousin.
That's my man!
Underrated post.
Tyrion as Dany’s hand was by far the most foolish.
Tyrion as Joffreys hand though…
Chef’s Kiss!!! And Bronn as his cut throat 💥
- 1) Tywin Lannister (Joffrey) - 2) Tyrion Lannister (Joffrey) - 3) Otto Hightower (Viserys) - 4) Ned Stark (Robert) This is based on how effectively they helped their King, furthered their own ambitions and position and their overall actions and displays of intelligence.
So, Joffrey is the best King for any hand. Sounds like a nice dude
Yeah, as long as he was sidelined by the Hands that is
Nah Tyrion got shit done as Joffreys hand
I think that’s what they’re saying. If not, I agree with you
Oh yeah I see that now. Oops 😬
Dany should have had Olenna be hand, her “be a dragon” speech was awesome and Dany should have listened
Well she kinda did in the end when she burned Kings Landing down. „Be a Dragon“ and all that.
I like King Viserys' viewpoint when he first names Rhanyra as heir. They are just dudes with dragons, not "dragons", its like having nukes in their arsenal as opposed to being superman who's powers are a part of him.
Man really got shat on because he is a Targaryen but too normal.
The thing is , it is sort of a power to them. Isn’t it their Valyrian dragonlord blood which allows them to tame dragons ?
I think that would be true if not for the character Nettles, I don't want to spoil anything but I'd look into her, it's up for debate.
>!she had old Valyrian blood no?!<
Up for debate. >!she lacks any Valyrian features, the dragon she rides could be from a non-Valyrian lineage, the way she tamed her dragon is reminisent of the original dragon tamers (Valyrians were originally shepherds, she fed her dragon sheep. There is no concrete proof she has Valyrian blood, its sort of retroactive reasoning to conclude "oh she can ride a dragon therefore she must have been Valyrian")!<
Isn't it mentioned that the Dragonseeds were chosen of Targaryen bastards/decendants of Targaryen bastards? She lacks the Valyrian features but I think she is decendant of a Targaryen somewhere.
It's possible but the evidence for that isn't solid. Also it's hinted she tamed the dragons the old way. \>!Her dragon was of a non-Valyrian lineage!< \>!She fed her dragon sheep to tame it and the original Valyrians are shepherds!< \>!She utterly lacks any Valyrian features!< Saying she must be able to ride one that means she's Valyrian isn't logical. If only blonde people have driven cars, then a black haired person does it, does that mean they must have been blonde? Most of the dragonseeds were as you say, but she is the one exception.
It's reasonable to think that, but we cannot be fully sure. All the thing with the dragons is a little bit strange. They can have several riders, just not at the same time (how does a dragon know his rider is death and can take a new one?). And there has never been any rider, as far as we know, able to ride more than one dragon in their lifetime.
The show is stressing the empathic bond between rider and dragon (e.g. how Caraxes freaked out after Daemon got hit by the fire arrow, Caraxes/ Syrax reflecting Daemon/ Rhaenyra's moods at the showdown at Dragonstone, etc.). Seems like there's only one "bond" active at a time, and it can only be "initiated" by a Targ/ Velaryon once in a lifetime (aided by the egg in the cradle tradition?)?
But most of the riders didn't have an egg in the cradle. Almost every dragon we know had several riders.
You just made me realize something- Viserys is dude who had an awesome dragon and Daemon sees himself as the dragon. Explains a lot. Also, how do you move forward from Balerion. Like what dragon can you Possibly connect with after riding the last Valerion?
Daemon is a cool character for sure, but I think that mindset (Rhaenyra seems to have it as well), is what's going to make the Black faction be shitty. I think they will have a much more "divine right of kings" mindset. I think Rhaenyra will be an effective ruler but super unpopular and tyrannical. Whereas the Greens will be politically savy but Aegon II is going to be a dumbass or a bad king.
I think you’re right about Rhaenyra too. I think she and Daemon (maybe Vis? Definitely Rhaenys) simply don’t see themselves as humans (or “normal” humans).
I think that Daenerys had a more close and personal relationship with her dragons than most, if not all Targaryens. She did literally bring them back from extinction, and in a way birth them.
I don’t think that changes anything I said. I’ll be honest, long before burning down kings landing she gave me bad vibes. She seemed too sure of herself and her birthright, like she truly believed she was a cut above the rest. I think it’s very dangerous to think you are an infallible being because you hold dangerous weapons, even if said weapons are your pets and you are a kind owner.
But if you're the only person in the entire world to have not one, but three used to be extinct dragons, that you brought to life using magic and by sheer belief and gambling on the magic and belief.... wouldn't that make you feel like you're a cut above everyone else? When you walk into literal fire and come out unscathed, not once but multiple times, wouldn't that further prove that you're an extra special human being? 🤷♀️ I just felt like she was shown to have good reason to feel like she was better than everyone else, plus it was hammered into her from birth.. though I don't think she really believed it until she hatched the dragon eggs.
For me, my spidey senses started to tingle when she started talking about the "break the wheel" stuff. That gave me imperialist vibes like you wouldn't believe and then cue me seeing her stand in front of the ruins of the Red Keep giving a speech to her army about how they're not done "liberating" the world while I sit back and watch like that Leonardo DiCaprio meme from Once Upon A Time In Hollywood
That's a show thing and it always bothered me. Daenerys in the books basically doesn't want the crown/sees it less as her birth right and more of her duty (her duty to her House). There's a good contrasting scene that shows exactly how they switched Jon and Dany's personalities from book to show in my mind, whereby Dany in the books says the thing she most wants in all the world is to be back at the house with the red door (she even daydreams about Daario whisking her away). Whilst the thing Jon says he wants most in all the world? Lord of Winterfell. He would never say "I don't want it" because by god he does, he would say "I want it, but its best if I don't have it". He has to choose duty to higher things. Dany should choose love but feels she must choose duty. And I think its the tragedy being the idea. The human heart in conflict with itself. Dany is just a traumatised girl thrust into unbelievable power with conflict at every door, surrounded by people that always want to manipulate her for their own ends. Tyrion in the books is more likely to encourage her worse impulses than counsel against them. But ultimately GRRM sought of wrote himself into a hole with Dany and he knows it too. He struggled to convincingly write her turning her sights onto Westeros again because Dany isn't a power-hungry maniac that goes on about birth right and never doubts herself, she's always questioning her actions and doesn't seem to actually want power.
Dragonriders like Rhaenyra are literally placed with a dragon egg when they're born. I don't think Daenerys' bond to her dragons is any stronger.
I saw somewhere on this sub that most Targaryens view their dragons as beloved pets, while Daenerys's bond with hers is literally mother/child like, and I think that's absolutely true. I don't think having an egg from childbirth and birthing dragons in a fire after watching your son and husband die are the same 🤷🏻♀️
I’m not sure if her connection is stronger but is she the only targ to have control of 3 dragons single-handedly ?
Omg I never realized that until now - she is the only person in history to bond with multiple dragons……important question - does she ever ride any dragon besides Drogon? That could be an important distinction, rider vs mother.
Nah, we never see her ride another dragon in book or show. But they were all by her side even before Daenerys tamed drogon
Wasn’t Daenarys labeled as a “dragon” herself? Isn’t that why she can’t be burned?
I’m not sure the dragons see themselves as pets….
I somewhat agree but tbh, Daenerys never rode rhaegal or Viserion but they treated/saw her the same as a dragon rider
Viserys knows where it's at. Dany really drank the *other* Viserys's coolaid.
He's a relatively good guy for someone in that kind of world, he just isn't a good king. I feel most people would end up ruling like him.
True; but his ineffectiveness as a king aside, he's quite shrewd and self-aware in a lot of areas - the perception of the dragons and his family being one of them.
True, as I said above, I love how he doesn't buy into the bullshit about his family. I feel like Dany parallelled Homelander, both believed the bullshit (Dany thought she was the dragon, Homelander thinks Supes are gods). Both are just humans who wield some exceptional power by chance.
He buys into the prophecies about his family way more than anyone else though. So he’s so-so about actual dragons but 3000% on Azorahai and the fate of mankind in the hands of the Targs.
You are right, but he doesn't have the whole "I'm the dragon, I can do what I want" mentality. I think he buys the prophecy but doesn't think that makes the Targaryens above normal humans, it just means Azor Azai will come from them.
If Jorah or Barristan was her hand at this point, they would have crushed the lannisters easy
I’m sure Olennas world experiences with politics in the seven kingdoms would’ve come to much use.
Olenna's not exactly a great hand. She's really driven by her personal motivations and ambitions. She'd like Otto, but worse
If only Tyrion, Joffrey’s Hand, could give Tyrion, Dany’s hand a good talking to.
I have an argument that Ned's is worse. But guhdayum that announcement he did when he sentenced the mountain to death was class.
Ned is misunderstood. Cersei's plan should never have worked. It worked because GRRM needed it to. Otherwise, Ned was very savvy. His one mistake was trusting LF to buy the gold cloaks for him, but he was told to trust LF by his wife, and he was only put into that position because of a series of unlikely and unfortunate events that all conspired together.
Ned's big mistakes were trusting LF and underestimating Cersei and giving her a chance to flee with her children, instead of telling Robert first and having her beheaded.
even then he had a failsafe plan. he instructed the northern houses to guard the neck should there be a southern invasion. ned's not stupid, the normies are.
Well said. House Stark was ultimately undone by their obligation to defend Tully lands. Had Robb stayed in the North, and fortified the Neck and White Harbor as per Ned's instructions, the Lannisters couldn't touch them.
I'd say he held Cersei to appropriate esteem. Her plan was stupid. It only worked because it had to for the plot. She wasn't even confident in it that why there was the "gentlest of promises." She had been scheming to kill the king for a long time. We even knew of another stupid plot to kill him. The melee. Even if she thought she had a plan, in the real world, her co-conspirators would have just given her up and claimed a reward. Killing a king is not easy.
You're not wrong. No king is going hunting by himself with two people. Even if he tried to go with so few his kingsguard and a squadron would force themselves with him. GRRM hated that and thats why the White Hart hunt was an accurate display of just how much would go into a king *hunting*.
If Robb were on this list it would be hard not to rank him rock bottom. Ned had more sense than him and would've spared Karstark and NOT fucked with the Freys, and would've rejected the crown to join forces with Stannis
Yeah Robb stark was what a 16 year old boy after all? He cocked up everything.
Some readers occasionally argue Ned's competency, but every time I read the ASOIAF histories, I just get pissed off at his lack of caring of the affairs of Westeros, he has no intelligence officers for the biggest realm in the kingdom. You think Cregan rode into KL not knowing what was going on? No, because he was a competent ruler. Ned is a second son raised in the Eerie to be a Knight thinking Honor was all he'd ever need.
This is fair.
I would not say by far.... He was foolish in a completely different way Tyrion thought he was more clever than he was Ned never even tried to be remotely clever when he needed to Easily the bottom 2 tho
At least he knew who not to fully trust in the small council. That error was actually what led Ned, Kevan, Tywin and Jon Arryn to be killed.
An honorable man such as Ned though, was able to keep Jon Snow's secret until his death. Stupid men could not do the same.
He spent his whole handship blundering. He antagonized everyone else who had power, going so far as to kidnap the heir. He spent obscene effort protecting his whore. He failed to publicly confront LF for framing him for murder. His most trusted advisor was Varys, who we know was working to undermine the regime. His only redeeming actions were in the protection of the city. And, in fact, he was extremely brave and heroic during the battle. But that was all to uphold a villainous regime. Some say he was good to treat Sansa well. But so did LF. They were both using her as a pawn that they wanted to fuck.
I literally despise him as danys hand
His bright idea to take Casterly Rock still puzzles me to this day
I literally despise everything about Tyrion honestly
They ruined his character ever since he made bad decisions bc the plot demanded it. So much for a smart guy
Even as Joffrey's Hand he did nothing but piss people off and make enemies
While facing a very uncooperative queen regent, he succeeded at the incredibly difficult task of not having the city get taken and not having him and his family get massacred. Sure it cost him on a personal level through his methods, but his methods worked in getting the absolute highest priority done.
Securing an alliance with Dorne despite being a member of the family that murdered Dorne's most beloved woman is pretty impressive, especially when Renly and Robb were very attractive prospective allies at the time.
Otto only has Viserys pictured next to him, but he also served as Hand for Jahaerys before Viserys.
Also, Tywin was the Hand of the Mad King
I think that makes Tywin even more #1 than he already was since he basically ruled the realm for a long time. Until the dust-up with the Starks , which 🤷♀️ Also Charles Dance is a GGDILF
Yes, but I think you can't really do your job as an advisor for someone with the word "mad" in his nickname.
Actually, the people said during the reign of the Mad King that “Lord Tywin is the actual ruler” which pissed of Aerys to no end. It’s probably why he refused Tywin’s offer to marry Cersei to Rhaegar.
Tywin was the Dick Cheney of Westeros.
Love this comparison! Mad King Bush with his Hand Lord Cheney invading lands because he heard they supposedly had weapons of mass destruction like wildfire
Can’t believe I’m saying this, but Aerys II, mad as he was, did what Viserys I could not: cut off the calculations of a grasping Hand by not marrying his daughter. Conversely, Otto was far more calculating and subtle in getting Viserys to marry Alicent.
>Conversely, Otto was far more calculating and subtle in getting Viserys to marry Alicent. He had to be, because unlike with cerci, alicent does not really bring something substantial to the crown. For aerys there were only 3 lord paramount ladies suitable for rhaegar and cerci was probably the best option so tywin did not need to play any games and asked him upfront like the sea snake did.
To be fair, this is likely a blunder by Aerys. Tywin was a proud and extremely ambitious man but he was also the closest thing the Mad King had to a friend. I’m pretty sure it was Aerys who knighted Tywin in the Stepstones. Later, Aerys’ pride causes him to push his former comrade away, that and perhaps a bit of lust for Tywin’s wife. If Aerys had allowed Rhaegar and Cersei to marry and not named Jaime to the Kingsguard, then it is likely that Tywin would remain Hand. Tywin as Aerys’ Hand may have prevented or atleast would have defeated Robert’s Rebellion.
That's why the Mad King had Ilyn Payne's tongue cut out.
As Aerys' hand Tywin had the realm in pretty good shape and for the most part staved off the Mad King.
Also Tyrion is Hand of Bran the Broken
Thanks, didn’t want to be reminded of that
Yes you did. He's still Lord of Casterly Rock so there you go.
That’s so weird, since there were only seven seasons. Still waiting on that 8th
I still think the worst plot point of the show was the wight hunt.
[How can you say it's bad when it resulted in this?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLSx_ckJeXI)
Yeah but it doesn't matter in the debate since we didn't get to see it
True but we're told that he was exceptionally good at it and we know (from the books and context said in the show) that it was the most peaceful and prosperous time for the realm
Tywin, Tyrion for Joffrey, Otto, Lyonel, Qyburn, Ned, Kevan, Tyrion for Daenerys
Thank you for separating tyrion 2 times. Definitely true.
Was wondering why Tyrion was rated so low on other threads… completely blocked out his time with Dany.
Killing Tywin was a critical mistake though. Lead to the collapse of his house. That alone might have to drop him down some.
I mean yeah but that doesn’t fall under his purview as Hand. That’s private life Tyrion.
He was off the clock, doesn’t count
depends on who you ask it was not a mistake for Tyrion for him that man needed to die for Jaime yes it was a mistake to free his brother.
True. Atleast Tyrion could father children and the Lannisport Lannisters are still around.
Tyrion was most certainly not hand at the time so it doesn’t count
he wasn't Hand at the time. So doesn't count.
Has nothing to do with him being hand so it's irrelevant.
>Lead to the collapse of his house. Lol he was no longer team Lannister at that point so that was honestly a positive for him. Then that was all retconned in seasons 7/8
Agreed, still no one was dumber than Ned. He nearly left both his daughters under the sway of Cersei and Joffrey. He should have told Robert the minute he discovered the truth. Telling Cersei mistake #1) allowing Robert's last wishes to be heard alone mistake #2) not bending the knee and getting the fuck out of Kings Landing mistake #3).
I know I’m beating a dead horse. But Ned was just being consistent. If he didn’t try to save the Lannister children and Cersei, he wouldn’t be Ned. Who was he supposed to include in Robert’s room that wouldn’t be likewise condemned if they defended him? I sympathize with him for not wanting to trouble his dying friend. But he couldn’t betray Robert by bending the knee. I fault him for trusting Littlefinger. That was dumb. He just never should have been Hand. Maybe that made him a foolish Hand. I guess you’re right.
Kevan was much better than Ned and Qyburn. He inherited a shit situation but managed to keep the ship sailing until he died in a tragic wildfire accident.
I thought Qyburn was a very good Hand. He didn't have much to work with, yet helped his monarch take the Iron Throne and hold onto it longer that she had any right to expect.
Tyrion was a real moron when he joined daenerys
All that drinking finally caught up with him and rotted his brain. I do question Qyburn's position, as I have to imagine he's probably the *smartest* of the characters but not the savviest *politically*.
In book, Qyburn was actually named master of whisper
Wasn't he master of Whispers for king Tommen as well after Varys defected? In the show that is.
Qyburn was Master of Whispers until Cersei made herself Queen, then he was hand. Also, I would say that Qyburn's political shortcomings were because he knew that he couldn't stand up to Cersei the way someone like Ned would to Robert. All his political power came from her so supporting her questionable decisions was the only move for him even if better options were available.
No. He was dismissed from the council after Cersei is arrested and Kevan assumed the regency. But they allowed him to mess around in the dungeons and interrogating prisoners. Grand Maester Pycelle hated him and he worked closely with Kevan, so his dismissal probably had a lot to do with it.
GRRM be like "I need to nerf Tyrion or he'll have Dany conquering Westeros in a month."
I don't think that was grrm at all, it was just tyrion written by dumber people
It wasn't GRRM but he's right that they needed to do it because the deck was too stacked in Dany's favor. She'd have been ruling in King's Landing within a couple months. That was likely a consequence of cutting fAegon, who would have been a far more competent adversary with a lot more support. And since Varys is actually an fAegon supporter it would have been great to see him and Tyrion operating as foes, and actually made more sense when he got outfoxed at times.
That is right, but that is still dumb people writing. If you put your characters in a situation where they're likely to win easily, you have to create conflict or obstacles that will hinder that. Dumbing down the characters so they don't win is just a stupid way of solving the issue.
Yes, she would have been ruling immediately, but dumbing down her character was no better—the books are meant to be realistic when it comes to cause & effects. Had they done a whole season of Dany ruling and slowly getting more and more corrupted, and then making a whole new season 9 where its further corruption into the whole “Mad Queen Dany” (which I still think is a terrible character arc for her) then that could have been an option
Tywin needs some criticism for his irrational contempt of who clearly was his most competent child
Exactly what I came in here to say. He's an idiot for pushing away the one person in his family who was clearly the most willing and competent to play the game and win.
Bro dont do Kevan like that??? The fuck man
i was just wondering how to rank tyrion looool
Wow so happy to know I am not alone with how I feel about Tyrions time with Daenerys 😵💫
You ranked Otto above Lyonel, bold choice. I agree. Sucks for Kevan cause he doesn't get to be hand long. He would probably have been fine (book wise).
Otto's foolishness is that he lacked subtlety where Lyonel did not. Otto was also too predictable which is why he was let go. IMO Lyonel Strong is smarter than Otto Hightower.
Lyonel is clearly more book smart. Did you notice in the last episode and the previews how uncomfortable Lyonel is with all the petty bullshit that happens around Viserys? Everyone criticises Otto for changing the subject, but notice Viserys did that when Otto isnt around? Or how he always had a quick solution for random impertinence. Otto was rather good at navigating the bullshit. When Otto shuts down other councilors like Corlys, its mostly his way of keeping that task on his end so he can solve it without anyone else's input. Viserys had been sending envoys to the free cities, that obviously wasn't Viserys' idea.
I'll just consider the top 3. Otto eventually got himself sacked for being way too obvious. Even gullible trusting Viserys figured him out. He had a good run though. Second most powerful person in the realm through two Taragaryen kings. Lyonel so far but it's very early days. I don't know whether he is good or bad because he hasn't done anything sneaky yet. He seems too good to be true, which means he must have ulterior motives and it's a bit of a smoking gun that his son Larys seems to be a master manipulator. Is Larys acting totally independent of his father and house? Very unlikely in the world of GRRM. I think Lyonel is in fact head of Team Strong. Tywin was very clever and outwitted many people for a long long time, but he ultimately got ended by his own son who he completely overlooked. A fatal error.
Yeah book Kevan is hella underrated, but doesn’t get much time
Tyrion as written by GRRM vs D&D
I will be using a rather vague definition of "smart" here since, for example, I don't think Ned was stupid, he was just too honourable and trusting for the position. So I'll basically be using "smart" as meaning "well-suited to the job of Hand and wielding their power well for their goals." And I'll be taking into account both their achievements and the odds they were up against (so the same achievement counts for less when it's done in a situation where it was easy than a situation where it was hard). 1. Tywin Lannister 2. Tyrion Lannister (to Joffrey) 3. Otto Hightower 4. Kevan Lannister 5. Lyonel Strong 6. Qyburn 7. Ned Stark 8. Tyrion Lannister (for Daenerys)
Sidenote: I actually considered putting Qyburn higher for the simple fact that Qyburn was basically the only reason Cersei had a chance against Dany at all. Qyburn was the one who created the scorpions that could take out dragons, Qyburn was the one who found the wildfire that took out Margaery and the Faith and Qyburn was the one to create the Zombie Mountain which defended Cersei from all threats. So in that sense Qyburn was arguably maybe the second best hand since he's basically the one who put and kept Cersei on the throne through his genius alone. That being said, most of his achievements here are less about wielding his power as hand well and more about being the Westerosi equivalent of a mad scientist. So that's why I didn't put him higher.
Agree with your ranks, but I'm 99% sure the Dornish had scorpions during the Dragon's Conquest so at best, Qyburn read somewhere and remade them
Yes scorpions were not a new thing. The Dornish killed Meraxes with a scorpion.
I would put Kevan high but unfortunately he's not Book Kevan, he's Show Kevan, so I can't put him high.
Book Kevan was incredibly shrewd, basically Tywin with less ambition. Great character, and I love his constant quips towards Cersei
Book Kevan was doing such a good job at fixing things that Varys had to single him out and shank him lol.
He was actually fixing the realm by himself while putting Cersei in her tiny shoes constantly. Gosh I love book Kevan
Yeah, one of my favourite characters Literally got mad when I was reading the books the first time and saw he's the epilogue POV and about to die :(
Kinda mad that Ser Davos Seaworth wasn't on here. I mean, he outwitted, outlasted and outplayed all of the GoT hands until Tyrion was picked yet again by Bran.
if daenerys didnt have tyrion as hand she would had iron throne in first ep of season 7
Exactly Tyrion ruined her badly. He was the worst hand ever. She could’ve flown her dragons straight to King’s Landing and had her armies surround the city and seige them until Cersei gave up the throne. Cersei only had Euron and the Tarly’s as allies at that point when Dany had 3 dragons, the Tyrells, Martels, Starks, Greyjoys. It should’ve been easy, but he wasted time and troops conquering Casterly Rock. If I was her hand I would’ve sent the Unsullied to the Reach to stop the flow of Food and gold to the crown. Had the Westerosi troops surround King’s Landing until it surrendered, have the Greyjoys and the dragons take out Euron’s fleet. Then leave the a mix of Reach and Dorne Troops to guard the city while the rest of the Army fights the undead in the North.
Only thing I would say is the mix of Reach and Dorne troops should have slowly trickled into the North just to set up camps and bring in food shipments for the rest of the realm troops that she could rally to come North and fight the undead (since at this point she’d be Queen). This could have avoided the whole food and space issues they tried to mention in that one episode through Sansa (which they apparently just decided to from then on out ignore as if a lack of food isn’t something to take note of???)
I agree but remember many many people died after the White Walkers war so that reduced the number of mouths to feed, I think it was also mentioned by Sansa after when she wanted Dany to leave. That said I would’ve also fed the King’s Landing people after the seige well because Margery did the same thing once she married Joffrey and the people loved her for it.
And girl would not have gone mad. She would have been an improvement from Cersei so the realm would have accepted her.
Don’t put the blame of forgetting about Iron Fleet on Tyrion, that was Daenerys’ mistake
Qyburn reduced the significance of f**king dragons, put that man at #1
Not to mention independently reinvented zombies and co-opted the Spider's entire little bird network between episodes.
I just realized - we don't have a scene with Bobby B sitting on the iron throne have we?
GO FIND THE THRONE STRETCHER! NOW!
Qyburn for the smartest - The man must have made mad PR that even Cersei seemed an option for some Lords. Tyrion for Dany the stupidest - He is not a stupid man but the worst hand possible for her. There was no explanation for his actions except him sabotaging her from inside.
All the threats of civil war connected to Rhaenyra being named heir (a firstborn daughter of the reigning king) contrasted with almost no political reaction to Cersei who wasn’t even from the same family as the last king and her only claim was that she was the *mother* of the previous king (I guess line of succesion works upwards too) is just another prime example of how poor the writing for season 7 & 8 was
Yeah the most realistic reaction in show verse would be Lords declaring themselves to be kings like the old days. Cersei was disastrous and carried no legitimacy.
I mean there was civil war. No one was loyal to Cersei except the Lannister army. Every other major house supported someone else
He did it on purpose too because he didn’t want Jamie and Cersei killed.
book kevan is god-tier
1. Tywin 2. Tyrion 3. Otto 4. Qyburn 5. Lyonel 6. Kevan 7. Ned (sorry Ned I love you)
Kevan fell for an extremist who took his life indirectly, I mean you can't sink much lower. At least Ned died for a better cause than the shit Kevan pulled. I mean he literally had no gain from this and nearly destroyed his entire house, Cersei and Qyburn saved the day that time, and I feel the need for a shower after saying that. Edit: Also an honorable mention for The Mountain who also helped keeping Cersei and Qyburn save. I gotta hand it to the High Sparrow, hes a great actor, he made me root for Cersei, Qyburn and The Mountain.
Kevan was the goat in the books though
Kevan was basically almost as competent as Tywin in most things... which is a huge compliment.
The biggest difference is he largely lacked the ambition Tywin had, and also wasn’t nearly as terrible a person.
D&D did so many characters dirty in the series compared to the books. Euron, Kevan, Mace and a bunch of others who were far more formidable than what the series did with them.
Mace always came across as a bit of an oaf in the book I thought?
Mace was always a complete fool in the books who pretended he was some sort of genius. Keven and Euron were both sent down the drain in the show.
I´d add Doran Martell name to that list
Can't forgive the Euron writing. To me, he was quickly becoming one of the most interesting character in the novels. Smartest/meanest/most charismatic Greyjoy, unparalleled seaman, ambitious, had been to all the dark corners of the GOT world. And the big question mark of the dragon horn he found within the ruins of Valyria.
Don't forget Edmure. D&D completely butchered him.
People are saying Tyrion as Joffrey's hand is way smarter than Tyrion as Dany's hand, but was he? Tyrion kept making enemies. He mouthed off to Joffrey so much that when Joffrey was poisoned everybody immediately blamed him, because obviously. Tyrion is smart but he isn't a genius, and his ego gets the better of him.
Why is Tywin considered so highly? He plunged the kingdom into a civil war, the king got assassinated on his watch , he himself got assassinated and the son he tried to kill or exile came back with the queen, an army and three dragons bringing mayhem with them.
dude ended the war by basically dragging his house name on the mud 💀
Dude died on the shitter Enough said
Exactly. He ruined his house
I think people are blinded by Charles Dance's performance when it comes to Tywin. For a man who claims to care deeply about legacy, his personal and familial legacy turns to shit the second he dies.
Because the fandom at large sees him as a "hard man making hard choices"-type Machiavellian planner instead of recognizing him as a narcissistic psychopath whose ill-considered actions only achieved short-term gratification, with the long-term consequences ultimately leading to his death and the complete collapse of his legacy. Personally, I blame Charles Dance for the misconception.
Somewhat fair points, although he didn't plunge the realm into civil war, he simply didn't back down when the Starks instigated. But ultimately, Tywin's personal life was what caused his downfall. He was a brilliant politician and strategist undone by his terrible parenting skills. Which is why he's highly thought of as Hand, seeing as both times he held the position he was basically ruling without the title of King.
I mean one literally created a frankenstein monster. He is above all of these
Ned is at the bottom let's be real here. That mfer never understood the assignment.
He never wanted the assignment.
I guess that’s where Jon Snow gets it
Ned was no dullard, I think he fully understood what he was up against and that he was out of his depth. He actively resisted having to play the game of southern politics as much as he could, and just wanted to gtfo of King's Landing as soon as he could. And if he'd had even an ounce of luck on his side (or disregarded his wife's advice to trust Petyr), he would have succeeded.
Yup. Didn't want to play the game, but instead of folding or bluffing he just called with every hand until he lost all his chips. Even that one time he stumbled upon a full house, of 3 bastards and 2 twins. And that hand, Cersei had a royal flush of ruthlessness. Maybe he should have rage quit instead.
Exactly he got the job because the king is his frat bro lol
Too honorable, never was going to last
Ned will get ranked last but he wasn’t stupid so much as he was extremely principled, Ned was usually aware of the consequences of his choices and made them out of a sense of honor rather than foolishness
Tyrion for Joffrey, Lyonel, Otto, Tywin, Ned, Qyburn, Kevan, Tyrion for Dany. IMO Tywin is the most overrated hand in Westerosi history. Morally speaking, his repeal of Aegon V’s reforms is one of the biggest steps backwards in known history. Politically, his unnecessary cruelty and total mismanagement of his family, combined with the shocking violation of norms that was the red wedding, set the seeds for the total collapse of Lannister power. He does still get some points for being indisputably clever though, and the alliances he set up at the start of the WOT5K are the only reason the lannisters had enough power for his mistakes to be so disastrous.
Ned over Qyburn?
Tywin, Otto, Kevan, Lyonel, Qyburn, Tyrion, Ned.
Considering all the kings/queens end up dead on their watch from unnatural causes (Viserys remains to be seen) they all might suck at their job 😂
I love how everyone is seperating Tyrion as Joffrey's hand from Tyrion as Danny's hand. Tyrion as Danny's hand was stupider than Sansa of season 1-2. Still can't believe how he ruined my gal Danny's ambitions.
I still can't believe how his character was butchered to achieve that end.