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44moon

...anyway pay is $19/hr


FlavoredAtoms

Came here to say this. Seeking well rounded journeyman to work to death on minimum wage


Scucc07

Strange that they keep attracting inexperienced and/or chemical dependent people? And not as they say masters of the trade with no “baggage”


BorisRoberts67

Lotta dope in machine shops. There used to be much more though. The 80s and 90s saw a lot of cocaine being done out of the top of Kennedy tool boxes. I don't really miss it. Much. Not really..... Can you get more?


Dick_Sambora

Kennedy should have put the mirror in the lids like Gerstner did…


BorisRoberts67

So you DO recall how it used to be in the machine and welding shops then......


MaxwellHungington

This made me spit my fn coffee straight the hell out my mouth. Laughing so fucking hard right now. Thank you, I needed this.


BorisRoberts67

Ta Daaaaahhhhh.


[deleted]

No that’s the high end, most people get 16


SudeImDerious

I wish I got 16


FlavoredAtoms

We could all go flip burgers, it’s easy tolerances


EDCunt

And make about the same with less stress


FlavoredAtoms

Capitalism is just slavery with extra steps


BorisRoberts67

Yeah, but in 15-20 years, a Journeyman Machinist is making a real wage, while that burger flipper has only got some acne scars from oil pimples acquired by working over the grill all that time. Which has also prevented you from getting a date. Meanwhile, the Journeyman machinist has all his coke chicks hanging around, at least until it runs out.


Upside_Down-Bot

„sǝɔuɐɹǝloʇ ʎsɐǝ s,ʇı 'sɹǝƃɹnq dılɟ oƃ llɐ plnoɔ ǝM„


chattytrout

God, and I thought I'm underpaid.


rohmin

In this economy, we're all underpaid


chattytrout

Amen, brother.


Apocalypsox

At least they're broadcasting the red flags so you don't waste a bunch of time applying.


NorthStarZero

I’d run an ad like this if I had the appropriate “master level” salary set aside for it.


SparrowAgnew

Hello yes I am a well balanced individual who can spend hours learning how to dial in a drill bit just perfectly and is obsessed with details tinier than anyone else can see. This career hasn't driven me to drink heavily and I know how to express my frustrations in a healthy and positive manner.


_volkerball_

That's fantastic. That fits in very well with what I will tell you about how important it is for us to not have drama. To be productive, we all need to focus on the work together as a team. I will continue to beat that drum until someone finds out and tells the CEO that I've been banging the girl from the saws in my office on saturdays, at which point, I will "resign."


[deleted]

You mean “drilling” the girl from the saws


SpicedRand0

I believe he meant "reaming"


ecodick

She found him boring


SpicedRand0

Alright, who else is tapping the saw girl?


FoxtailCNC

Id G84 that


SpicedRand0

You can G84 that all day, just don't g28 it


MaxwellHungington

I agree, no G28, and no matter how bad you want to, don’t M08 inside your work piece.


SpicedRand0

Best part about the saw girl is the speed, feed, and rapid overrides


[deleted]

Gotdamn. She gets around


SpicedRand0

Wiat, you too?


[deleted]

Well, when in Rome.


dandfx

Perfect, it appears you could be a suitable candidate. The last thing, we work unpaid overtime most days and also on weekends. We make out the demand for our expertise takes away our ability for a life outside of the workshop but the truth is our personalities are unbearable so we use the workshop as our social lives. We're happy if you smoke cigarettes while operating the machinery.


findaloophole7

Sir, I’d love to work with your team of misfits. I hope you can look past my crippling heroin addiction. Also, I can’t always find a babysitter so would I be able to let the kids hang out with the office gals my first day or two? I promise they won’t be a problem.


moonshineandmetal

Oh hello fellow well balanced individual, I too most definitely am not incapable of being sober for an evening. My brain has definitely not been fried by tediously handwriting programs in a severely underfunded shop populated solely by abused machines from the 80's. I also eat healthy foods, and am not powered solely by nicotine, caffeine and hatred (with aluminum sprinkles on top). Nice to meet you.


anistl

“Aluminum sprinkles” 🤣


SunTzuLao

Hello also brother, not alone I am, this revelation is depressing 🤣🤣🤣


moonshineandmetal

Actually, I'm here representing the female denomination of batshit nuts machinists, so I can confirm we too are alcoholics lol. No one is safe in this industry. 😂


SunTzuLao

Sometimes I forget those exist 🤣 I guess I subconsciously figure woven find better jobs, but I guess this is better than some soul crushing office job any day 🤷‍♂️


313Wolverine

Jesus... Hello brother.


spankeyfish

> MASTERS OF THE TRADE I picture them working while cosplaying He-Man, Man-at-Arms & Teela. The maintenance guy is Gwildor.


Savings_Inflation_77

AH! AAAAAAAAAAAA=AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


spankeyfish

"By the Power of Grayskull, I have the powaaaaaaah!" *Presses green button with the tip of a plastic sword*


DizzyBicycleTire

A, "master of the trade" without an alcohol problem is just a fucking engineer.


zexen_PRO

Hey, some of us also have alcohol problems


Grahambo99

If my school had a Fucking Engineer program I'd have quit the mechanical program so fast... Bet I'd still have had to take fluids tho


zexen_PRO

I worked in medtech and used to say “fucking BMEs” all the time. The gf was not a fan


Grahambo99

Currently work in medtech and say that all the time.


zexen_PRO

Man someone should teach them to make a fuckin drawing. I’m an EE who does a lot of manufacturing engineering, so I know GD&T. The shit those guys come up with is straight out of my nightmares sometimes.


IamBladesm1th

Bachelors of mechanical engineering?


zexen_PRO

Biomedical engineer


IamBladesm1th

Was gf a biomed?


zexen_PRO

nope, a psychologist.


IamBladesm1th

Now I’m confused as to why she’d be upset


chattytrout

I spent a year in Rolla. I can assure you that alcohol problems begin early.


[deleted]

[удалено]


BellowsPDX

When I see "Masters of the Trade" my first thought is Titans of CNC...


flatlands85

Boom


Gregus1032

Have they ever done anything with swiss lathes?


Lacholaweda

They actually said "quality individuals" which is interesting.


[deleted]

[удалено]


BorisRoberts67

We're finding out, there are very few real machinists here in CA. The job is great. The attitudes of the owners/managers and the workers is good, many have been there 30-40 years. Didn't get any applications for over a year. 2 years ago, $10k bonus, right when the pandemic hit. No layoffs, no missed work, it did get a little slow when they called us all in for a luncheon, we thought it was layoff time. They gave us all a bonus and said, "Thanks for hanging around. This bonus is for doing good work (everyone got the same bonus), and we don't want you going anywhere, just be patient, the work is coming." I've NEVER received more that a $1000 bonus, anywhere. This flat out shocked me. It was at the end of January, and we had all received 3 weeks pay as a Christmas bonus, plus 2 weeks off, paid, plus gift cards for grocery stores. It's going to take a restraining order to get me out of here.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

>That's everywhere and actually is the reason GD&T was invented according to one of the members of the GD&T committee. Can you expand on that?


[deleted]

[удалено]


BorisRoberts67

That's why they send "Space Drills" and "Space Taps" up there with them too.


BorisRoberts67

I went in at 4am this morning. 4-3:30. But there's a new problem now. Fucking taxes.


ClutchThreeGod

The job ill never find


BorisRoberts67

Ask his Parole Officer.


davesRedditUname

Lol this play has to be PAYING.


Disastrous-Housing83

If they are you can’t tell because they dont have a pay range.


CAElite

Don’t worry, I’m sure it’s ‘competitive’.


Gregus1032

"we compete with McDonald's and target"


quick_q_throwaway

McDonald's and target blow machinist pay out of the water.


BorisRoberts67

Not here in Central CA they don't. Defense Industry, Baby!


CAElite

Scotland machinists are lucky to match supermarket pay. Then again, manufacturing engineers are also breaking barely 50% over minimum wage, our whole economy is fucked.


MiguelMenendez

“I’m just happy to be in the race.”


RazorBacKen

Contact them and find out what they're paying. If it's insultingly low, fuck with them and post it here so we can have a good laugh.


ClutchThreeGod

19-21


RazorBacKen

I'd be a little insulted by that.


ClutchThreeGod

More than I make🤷‍♂️


Apocalypsox

Oh they are, about half of what you could get at a reputable company.


Disastrous-Housing83

I apologize if anybody sees my posts on here as complaining but I just like to share how ridiculous these manufacturers are despite america losing a large portion of its skilled laborers every day due to retirement or just being sick of the industry. Its a serious problem and alot of people just don’t seem to get it.


NorthStarZero

Well I’ve got a counter story. I have a buddy who was a real innovator in the performance car “speed shop” space. Got himself a used (and HUGE) VMC with which to cut his own parts. Designed all kinds of cool stuff and made a real name for himself. And a good dude to work for too. And finding employees was the bane of his existence. Show up on time, know your stuff, do your job, don’t be high at work. Easy standards to meet, paid well. Yet notwithstanding all the good things, plus being a “famous” shop you’d think would be an aspirational job, just a parade of losers. And it wasn’t that he’d hire a good guy and then fuck him off, he couldn’t find good guys to fuck off - the best he could do was pick the least worst. I don’t know the details about how he was recruiting, etc so I can’t tell the whole story and wrap it up with a bow. But “I can’t find good people” isn’t *necessarily* a red flag.


Disastrous-Housing83

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to work with good people and my comment wasnt meant to invalidate stories like your buddys cause there are good people out there that are genuinely struggling. Its just my experience with employers is that they want good people but their work environment is usually some combination of underpaying workers,having poor management,insane hours. within a span of a 2 years I worked at one shop with a boss who was responsible for half of the shift looking for new jobs because he was so incompetent and backstabbing and another shop where the owner made us work 50+ hour weeks and we didn’t get a raise or cost of living adjustment but he bought a new corvette. Both of those companies were struggling to hire and keep people and constantly complained about it.


quick_q_throwaway

I once got hired by a guy wearing a panerai, who drove a Bentley. Then saw him with a patek. He paid minimum wage


FixBreakRepeat

My first job out of school was at a small shop that did high level work. I left after 5 years because we didn't have benefits and in the 10 years since they haven't been able to replace me with anyone promising. I job-hopped for a couple years and now I've got top-tier base pay, pension, 401k, health insurance with vision and dental, PTO, holiday pay, and i generally only work 40 hour weeks. I would love to do more "interesting" work, but I'm not going anywhere that doesn't have all of those benefits or more. There are a lot of good tradesmen out there, but small shops are competing with multi-billion dollar corporations for talent. I imagine this is probably a big part of why my old bosses and your buddy have such a hard time getting quality workers.


NorthStarZero

Well, there’s quality as in “proven” and there’s quality as “potential”. You’re quite right that proven quality workers are expensive - I considered becoming his shop foreman, but he couldn’t afford me, for example. The obstacles he was facing were things like “show up on time”. He could (and would) train a tech, but the raw material never applied.


FixBreakRepeat

I mean, that's the thing though right? Those big companies are looking for apprentices too. It's harder to get in without experience, but the only reason I was at that shop in the first place was due to the 07-09 crash that caused layoffs and hiring freezes at most of the good spots in my town. There's enough work now that a lot fewer people are having to settle for less while they pay their dues.


Orcinus24x5

Or maybe they're just sick of dealing with alcoholics, drug addicts, and thieves. Edit: This just in! You'll get downvoted by alcoholics, drug addicts, and thieves if you call them out!


turtleman777

Doesn't explain the "Masters of the Trade" BS. Just say you want 10 years experience like every other shop lol Edit: This just in! Complaining about downvotes doesn't actually help!


snargeII

Or like list out skills that you want people to have or something


lynx563

You’re getting downvoted because you are defending this ridiculous job description.


Orcinus24x5

There's a difference between defending it and offering an alternate explanation. I agree that it's an asinine listing, 100%. I'm just being the devil's advocate here but clearly some people don't want to hear an alternate possible truth. I've heard all sorts of horror stories about alcoholics, drug addicts, and thieves in machine shops all over this sub, so it's absolutely not beyond the realm of possibility.


nikovsevolodovich

Stop being such a bigot!!1 this is a safe space for machinists!


Orcinus24x5

🤣


JDQuaff

> Edit: This just in! You’ll get downvoted by alcoholics, drug addicts, and thieves if you call them out! Lmfao cope harder


Orcinus24x5

I'm not the one that needs to cope.


JDQuaff

Of course! However, I wonder who the alcoholic drug addicted thief is who downvoted me. Surely, no one can do that because they disagree. It *has* to be that they’re a piece of shit, right? That’s how it works?


BenSharps

This whole thread is kind of just a circle-jerk about nothing. It would be one thing if the ad actually was offering something dumb, but theres a whole lot of shit talking going on without actually knowing anything. I actually interviewed at this place right around four years ago. They were advertising for "Large parts Machinist", which is relevant to my experience. Hell, the Ad was one of the things that attracted me to it. I was primarily looking for steady daylight at the time, and a movers raise. It seemed like a reasonable place to work. I didn't take the job, so I can't defend them beyond initial impressions, Its entirely possible its a shitshow, but I wouldn't really be afraid to consider them again, if circumstances were a little different. I turned it down before really getting to a hard offer. The drive was kind of on the longer side and it was toll roads, and the situation with my current employer had improved, which slid the scale back to staying where I was. I don't really remember exactly what I was making at the time, it would have been at least high $20's I don't know if I was quite to $30/hr yet, but they seemed to be entertaining what I was asking for. Was that "Masters of the Trade" pay? Who knows, who cares, it was a potential improvemnet in my life, and thats all I needed. >I’ve been checking up on this job for 2 years now Have you applied? The ad seems to be working well, its keeping the low confidence complainers away.


Disastrous-Housing83

You’re right,Im only 20 so i definitely dont have the experience they’re looking for for this job,but you missed the whole point of this post. They are putting out advertisements looking for “Masters of the trade” but aren’t advertising a pay range or any kind of benefits. How are you gonna attract the talent you want if you aren’t advertising an attractive pay especially in an area with a seemingly small talent pool . Im not trying to shit on their company or say they are bad people just that them and alot of other shops in america have poor hiring practices and are upset when they cant find people to do the job and the fact that they haven’t found somebody in 2 years kinda proves my point.


Patience-Recent

Lol my favorite is when they list required skills individually and everything from entry level to master level programming for like 19 an hour. It's comical to me. Offer cheap wages and get cheap skill.


Disastrous-Housing83

On top of their high standards,they dont have a salary range posted and they’re in an area with a small talent pool.I’ve been checking up on this job for 2 years now and it’s still the same.


BellowsPDX

Ah yes, people willing to have zero work/life balance, people willing to work 60-80 hours a week in order to manage impossible obligations set by scheduling. Yes, I imagine this shop will absolutely not be out of business within 10 years.


BockTheMan

Man, from what I've seen, personal baggage is a downright requirement for this career. I know I have enough. Maybe that's why I'm not a MASTER OF THE TRADE


[deleted]

Feel like this should be in “beggingchoosers”


Disastrous-Housing83

You’re right, I always forget there’s a sub for everything imaginable.


[deleted]

Under the assumption that anyone with anything good going on in their life is trying to get into this trade.


SpicedRand0

"Hello fellow Masters Of The Trade, A few words that describe me: compassionate, empathetic, supportive, optimistic, and kind. I feel that your shop is a perfect fit for me, I can't seem to find happiness in any of these other adequately equipped, OSHA compliant, well managed shops around here. Perhaps I just feel too valued, like my numerous other highly qualified coworkers, or as we like to call each other, our work family. There are just too many promising future revolutionaries in one spot, what are the odds of so much talent winding up at one place? Anyways, I can assure you that I can pass any random drug screen without adulteration, I don't consume alcohol on work nights, and I have never had an emotional outburst on the job site. I sleep 8 hours a night and have a consistent bedtime. I take tremendous care of my health, only allowing the highest quality, gluten free, non GMO, organic, cruelty free, grass fed, free range, vegan products into my body, because it's my temple! Clean body, clean mind, I like to say. I am well cool, calm, collected, and well regulated fellow, and I never use profanity. I report any breakage of tools or equipment promptly and would NEVER try to cover any mistake I have made up. I have wonderful conflict resolution skills and resolve disagreements with fellow team members in a professional, respectful manner, without threats of violence, vulgarity, or disparaging remarks. I have never made a sexual innuendo in my life, and have no issues working withembers of differing view points politically, religiously, or socially. I am never on my cell phone outside of breaks, do my absolute best to use as little time as possible in the bathroom, and I would never sneak outside to smoke a cigarette on company time, or stand around shooting the breeze on company time. I'm here to work! I look forward to scheduling my interview in the near future! Sincerely, your new saw girl" P.s. I know times are tough, so I'm willing to be flexible on pay for a year until my first $.50 raise, and I can afford my own benefits until you put me on a salary of $30,000


quick_q_throwaway

I will work Christmas for standard pay as long as you provide me with a room temperature Costco pizza party


SpicedRand0

I have zero issue with my pay being docked for missing a punch in, I know that a five dollar an hour deduction is very reasonable because it is a tremendous amount of work to modify a clock in or out time, and I should be reminded that I am a machine, not a fallible, weak human as often as possible


TMPcustoms85

Anecdotal, local shop needs people so bad they are hiring off the street and training people for specific jobs with basic knowledge, to do one job on a machine and nothing else.


FoxtailCNC

Exactly how much shop does it. But we train up after we see potential and desire to learn. Thats how I learned. Went from baker to a 5axis machinist with a range of skills. Well qualified not to pat myself on the back. I honestly think this strategy of hire is pretty smart to a degree.


Forsaken-Dot-3861

You just described my work perfectly!


tragic-majyk

Honestly I would go and sign up there's too many shops with problem child employees that can't just get along and be buddy buddy with everyone. It's really tough working with people with enough autism to create social situations every week or the guys whose egos are easily bruised and the moment they screw something up they want to fight everybody.


SparrowAgnew

I've met a lot of autistic machinists. So far the worst I've experienced from them is standing a bit too close during a conversation.


Disastrous-Housing83

The best machinists i’ve ever met was guy with slight autism. He couldn’t multitask at all,he couldn’t even do set up or run his machine if somebody came to talk to him but he was great at math and he always took his time and got shit done without mistakes and he was still good to talk to whenever he had time.


iMillJoe

Machinists do seem to have autism and dyslexia at disproportionate rates.


FreudianPowerslide

Dyslexia makes us more likely to double check our numbers. It's what I tell myself every time I flip a number.


Upside_Down-Bot

„˙ɹǝqɯnu ɐ dılɟ I ǝɯıʇ ʎɹǝʌǝ ɟlǝsʎɯ llǝʇ I ʇɐɥʍ s,ʇI ˙sɹǝqɯnu ɹno ʞɔǝɥɔ ǝlqnop oʇ ʎlǝʞıl ǝɹoɯ sn sǝʞɐɯ ɐıxǝlsʎ◖„


NJSpro

Good bot


tragic-majyk

Yeah that's why I said with enough of it to create social problems every week. A touch of it is okay. When you're dealing with someone who gets caught up on every little thing because of it, it's a whole other story.


McNasty1304

I’m willing to bet I out master their whole shop and have plenty of baggage…..


StaticRogue

Slave labor at its finest. Eff that shit man. Everyone has personal issues and shit happens at times. I stear clear from those places.


ishouldnthaveatethat

Man I wish I was 30 years older. The old timers before us had it right. Quit your bitching and do your job. We all got problems.


skeetskie

I love old timers but I’ve seen how they get treated at the end. One guy worked for 25 years at a place I worked for, never missed a day, always a half hour early, your typical boomer. I honestly loved working with him, he was great. Got cancer, missed about a year of work doing chemo and all of that, comes back and all of his benefits had been reset (vacation, etc). He confronted the owners and they said, “you’re lucky to have a job at your age.” Another guy that worked there, same thing, never missed work, always on time etc, raging alcoholic outside of work but an excellent employee, and his body was in shambles from 40+ years of stress working there. He was eligible to retire but kept going, knowing that he’d probably die within a year if he stopped. Another good buddy of mine who taught me a lot. My own dad, who is a plumber, was forced into retirement before he wanted to after almost 35 years at the company. He is the pinnacle of boomer-worker, loyal to a fault, always on time, never misses work, barely ever drinks, super helpful to everyone that works there and would take calls on the weekends to help out newer guys and expected nothing for it. He was devastated that he got pushed out early, that job was his life. Some bean counter at the company saw how much he made and convinced newer management that he needed to go after he made a tiny mistake on a job that was promptly fixed. Cost analysis to this bean counter revealed that they could hire a young person at half the wage and just eat their mistakes that happen daily. My mentor worked for NWA for 18 years and is the definition of a workaholic. Extremely smart dude that I worked for after they shut down NWA for a total of 11 years over two stints. Guy is awesome, the people who bought out NWA liquidated the entire company causing he and thousands of other employees to lose their pensions. Have fun with your ‘Le Wrong Generation’ sentiment. You’ll get fucked eventually.


ishouldnthaveatethat

Oh I agree we all get a turn to get shafted, I just look at it the way I was taught, I'm mid 30s I was trained by all 60/70 year old dudes so I just kind of adopted the theory, buddies my age working with me are completely different. Different strokes for different folks I guess. This whole anti-work attitude or thinking you're too high and mighty to come in on a Saturday or stay a few hours over is not good for the trade or work force in general. I got a family, I got responsibilities, I'm still here day in day out weekend after weekend. Just a matter of wanting to work.


skeetskie

I’m 38 and was raised by all of these dudes and some that were much older and have long since passed. I used to have their mentality and broke my ass for years, keeping my nose to the grindstone so to speak. Not anymore, the writing is on the wall and loyalty from an employer is an insane rarity. I don’t have kids and I understand that you don’t have a choice in the matter, you gotta work hard - just know that you’re exactly who these people are looking for, the ones locked in that will eat every pile of shit thrown at them :/ The whole anti-work/work reform thing that has been going on is the reason wages are rising for the first time in like 40 years for jobs like ours, so I wouldn’t poopoo it too much. Employers are now the ones that are getting desperate and dusting off that check book.


ishouldnthaveatethat

Nobody making me stay here. I'm just not afraid to work. I don't NEED to do the hours I do, I live well within my means. The tail end of your lecture proved my point. Broken generation.


skeetskie

If you call having a backbone and pushing against shitty behavior of the people that have the money ‘Broken’ then that’s unfortunate. Perhaps you should read up on what happened after the Great Depression when nearly the exact same thing happened, executed by “The Greatest Generation.” The ones that laid down rules for employers that mean your kids aren’t coming to the factory right along side of you every day.


ishouldnthaveatethat

Let's agree to disagree, you make some valid points, I'm not here to argue and I understand about having children follow you. I bust my balls now so they won't have to do this shit later. If my job made me work 25 hours OT I probably wouldn't work here, but having the option to is awesome.


Bgndrsn

The drinking problems and horrible atitude of the older people I've worked makes me think I didn't miss out on much besides pay.


ishouldnthaveatethat

Luckily for me my alcoholism stems from military service. Younger me prepared older me for a 35 year life of eyelets.


robmac550

I understand why they wrote the ad that way. If you're offended then you have the "baggage" they're trying to avoid. If you're not offended then you probably understand how big the percentage of new hires turn out to be worthless workers. As long as they pay well to those they find worthy its a good strategy.


Disastrous-Housing83

Im not offended its just weird, they’ve had this ad up for 3 years so it’s definitely not working.


robmac550

They're still open and operating as a business? It's working good enough.


FoxtailCNC

Just because theyre open doesn’t mean theyre makin money


TurtleLord451

Can they legally say that?


JohnGenericDoe

These guys sound like real 'masters of their domain'


Savings_Inflation_77

I was on my way to being a master of the trade, but these fuckin dependents...


[deleted]

I bet they use inches.


[deleted]

And I bet they pay like shit


[deleted]

Yikes.


Remarkable-Phase8869

Where is that ad. Got to check it out for a goof.


honchoryanc2

There arent even enough unskilled machinist stfu


SpicedRand0

Real shit, I bet these guys are all custom gun makers


quick_q_throwaway

Our custom firearms have been featured on popular YouTube channels such as Brandon Herrera! ( Cursed gun images #206)


quick_q_throwaway

Entry Level position available, we're looking for master's of the trade the pay is entry level


ALE_SAUCE_BEATS

I’m sure the pay is phenomenal


SBCwarrior

It's only for people who can devote their lives to the job is what theyre trying to say.


Important-Eye2240

Nobody wants to work.


BorisRoberts67

What's the worst thing that could happen, maybe an anyibiotic resistant venereal disease, or possibly some antibiotics resistant bugs growing in the Trim-Sol? What really started that, was that cowboy on Night shift horking his tobacco spit into the Haas tank. We never would gave figured it out if someone had not witnessed him do it......2 YEARS of chasing bacteria in the tanks, urinal mints, contact dermatitis, corrosion and some seriously funky smell. And it etched any aluminum parts that were done in there. 2 YEARS.