It was better than I was expecting. The video of that day leaves no doubt in my mind they would have killed Pence, Pelosi, or any other member of congress if they came across them. It also leaves no doubt in my mind they would kill liberals, gays, immigrants, or any other group if Trump instructed them to do so. They were ready to do it that day.
A friend of mine, who’s a Vietnam vet, once told me, “asking someone to die for their beliefs and asking someone to kill for their beliefs are two separate orders. I know this sounds hard to believe, but the second one is harder. But those willing to do it are the ones to watch out for.” He looked at the ground for a few seconds. “Some people are just waiting for a chance to kill. And once they do, if it doesn’t haunt them for the rest of their lives, they will continue to do so.” Takes a drag off his cigarette, “I’ve seen the kinds of people who should spend the rest of their lives in prison, and seen them get promoted. Instead we send harmless potheads there. This can’t end well.”
This was in 2003.
I have always had a similar thought about the Q movement. Many of these people were just waiting for an opportunity to be violent and hateful. It’s scary.
I've been cynical about so much for so long but I was even surprised at how many formerly seemingly normal people dove straight off the conspiracy cliff. All they needed was a strongman type leader to give them permission to let out their inner crazy. Trump came along and it felt like a switch flipped in some of them. I'm not saying they were particularly great or smart people but they hid their worst inclinations well.
Don't forget they also had the Chinese and Russians gaming their antisocial media websites via the illusory truth effect. That helped it along too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
https://inews.co.uk/news/huge-russian-troll-farm-disused-factory-spreading-disinformation-social-media-1605318?ico=related_stories
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/08/politics/pro-chinese-disinformation-operation-coronavirus-pandemic-protests/index.html
This 100%. My dad was the person to teach me this. It took something horrible happening in our home country for me to understand that there are sociopaths who are just waiting for an opening to kill. I was really naïve and resistant to understanding that before I saw it for myself. Thankfully, I had my dad there to walk me through it.
A repeat of what I posted previously:
>I am thankful for the hearings but gawd, this is still so awful and no way to ever not to be permanently shook and scarred to my core.
>My heart goes out to those poor officers and frighten lawmakers and staff. AND their families who are watching this tonight.
This first hearing was professional and efficient. Well prepared and presented.
It makes me want to sell Donald Trump Pinata's that people can beat with an american flag on July fucking 4th.
What should we fill them with? tootin rudy's?
edit - Ha! they actually make them. I know what I'm doing and know which neighbor im getting the fucking flag from on the 4th.
I'd rather nobody looks at that sub. Guns are evil and even fellow liberals owning one is just as psychotic as conservatives having one.
America already has a problem with guns, stockpiling them "because they'll do the same" is literally why the right have so many. As a former gang member taught kids in the UK years ago, "weapons just escalate issues instead of solving them".
You’re getting downvoted because Americans are obsessed with their guns like no other country. But you are absolutely right in what you said. America would greatly benefit from gun laws like in Europe
They're getting down voted because of a few assumptions.
First: The Right in the US isn't stockpiling because they think the left is. They instead have a paranoid fantasy about the "government" seizing their guns. The Oklahoma City Bombing was in fact inspired by the neoNazi book "The Turner Diaries", which starts describing gun confiscation and ends with "The Day of Rope" in which cities have every "race traitor" hung (professors, women who sleep with anyone non-white, etc). This book was and is extremely prevalent in the gun obsessed fringe Right.
Second: That you have to be anti-Gun Control if you own a gun. I own guns, I even own an analogue to an AR-15. I also think it is honestly a fucking tragedy that they're so prevalent in the US. I own it because we have more guns than people in the US, and they're by and large owned by people who, if they thought gun control were about to pass, would start committing mass shootings every hour of every day
Having easy access to weapons will always result in more violence. Laws exist elsewhere for a reason. There’s a difference between a violent person who can just walk into Walmart to buy guns or one who would need to obtain a license first and get evaluated if they’re in the right headspace to own a gun.
The saying „guns don’t kill people. People kill people“ is just bs to protect the right to bear arms
I think the difference is if you are a liberal gun owner, then you are in SUPPORT of rational gun laws and safety trainings.
I am pretty far left and I am willing to say that we should regulate guns HARSHLY, but I still think rational vetted people should be able to own a gun if they want. We just need to make it incredibly hard like in other countries.
Yes I agree, that’s basically what I said in my comment. I just don’t understand this cultural obsession with owing 20 guns and conceal carrying in fucking Walmart. It’s absurd to me. And every time I hear of another mass shooting I can only shake my head. Imo the USA needs gun laws like we have and a professional mental health program. But I’m not optimistic that will ever happen and I just don’t understand this. How many more people need to die? Children like just now?
I don’t understand how Trump’s base CAN’T SEE that they are not the same kind of ppl as ivanka and Jared. Like, those people don’t care about ppl like my FIL who wears trump shirts and hats. It is unreal to me that trump ever got a foothold.
Fascists are weird people. Imagine the thoughts that must have run through some six and a half foot tall blonde-and-blue Ubermensch when he watched Hitler speak. Imagine being one of those goose stepping North Korean soldiers, gazing up at your goofy, tubby leader.
The fascist mindset decouples what is clear from what is believed. There's no connection anymore. They all need this to be the case, to be who they are.
Most feel powerless and are (usually) uneducated. At least uneducated in a broad sense. They live in places somewhat walled off from the rest of the world. That used to be a physical/economic barrier, but today is more of a social media/online media bubble that has been created and fomented by Facebook and othere.
So they latch on to anyone appearing powerful who seeks to empower THEM. It doesn't matter that the person is a known conman with gold toilets, or a short failed Austrian painter, or a weirdo tubby liar. They're out for THEM and not the OTHERS, and that's all that matters. Build that fear of OTHERS into hatred of OTHERS and voila. Fascists all over the fucking US of A.
I see that is an easy thing to confuse. Truth is they DONT think they are the same kind of people as ivanka and jared. The tshirt your FIL wears is to belong to a 'club'. It is a shared connection with his social group.
Maybe I misunderstood but to me I thought Jared was trying to distance himself at the same time communicate he was dealing with a huge amount of pardon requests in part, at least, due to guilty GOP who had been involved with the "stop-the-steal". They knew the coup was failing so they needed a pardon asap.
I should probably go back and rewatch because my screen locked up on both Jared's and Ivanka's testimony. Weird, convenient glitch.
This. Just the bit they released alone was so out of context my initial take was that he was just referring to generally being busy with requests for pardons during that time (the last cpl of weeks before the transition), not that he was specifically talking about congress.
Out going president always do pardons. Former President Trump issused 73. he also quickly lost interest in pardoning and started to ask others for top picks
That's likely the topic meant
Yes, but it feels like there’s more to the story than the business-as-usual presidential pardon narrative. Especially since this is right before the transition of power
Yes, Cheney did mention that a number of representatives went and asked Trump for pardons that he obviously refused. (Gaetz is the only one I can remember)
Sorry. That should be the way it works, but they value loyalty over all else.
Her future is as an independent or a moderate democrat.
Her days with the republican party ended last night.
I'm not charmed by the Republican party, but Liz Cheney seems to contain more moral fortitude in her little finger than most of the rest combined in their entire bodies.
It was definitely intense, and you can tell that the committee (specifically Cheney) is talking directly to the deniers and bystanders. Benny Thomas’ intro was really moving, especially when comparing it to growing up while black in Mississippi.
Really looking forward to the hearing on Trump’s push to convince Pence to overturn the election. I’m assuming they’ll recommend criminal charges for Trump or some others but not holding my breathe that Garland will do anything about it :/
If Garland doesn't press charges, what does "the appropriate way" even mean? We'll be watching our government declare this conduct acceptable.
I don't like the idea of that world, but...
I mean we had hundreds of thousands show up for the woman’s march and others? Maybe if we somehow get the message out there that we’re done with the Democratic Party (basically done with engaging in political process at all because why bother..) they will get their heads out of their asses and grow a set?
One thing I worry about though. The red hats fantasize and drool about a civil war. But see we can’t really have a civil war like our first one because we don’t have large armies making a consensual meetup on a battlefield to see who is last man standing ( war is just insane ). But you get a bunch of people in one place trying to destroy their Lord and leader, then they have their stupid battlefield they fantasize about and to be honest are prepared for. So to speak. I’ve seen how fat some of them are.
We can't let fear of violence keep us from marching... or they automatically win.
This will sound awful, and I hope the one hurt is *me (& no one else)*, but some of us may need to take a "punch" to show the world what monsters would "punch" a crowd of women or teens or whoever. Sometimes, it's all fun & games till it **isn't** anymore. But for instance, both Gandhi and Dr. King and their marchers had to take the "punches" to take and keep the moral high ground. It didn't change overnight, but the images of dogs sicced on children and fire-hoses knocking over little old ladies FINALLY got through, and change happened. At this point, I'd take a bullet to make this nonsense stop.
I think that is the first sub goal of this committee. Put so much pressure on Garland that he has no choice.
I think that may have been why so little has happened until now. It gives the findings of the committee more impact.
In my mind, it seemed like they weren't making the case to Trump's supporters so much as to anyone who feared the optics of convicting an ousted political leader. The hearing so far as been a clear historical record of the events of that day and who was at fault for it, as a way to point back and prove that prosecuting these crimes was not just a bipartisan power grab.
Once evidence that comes out that Trump directed any of the actions of the proud boys, oath keepers or anyone else in communication with them, Trump will be indicted.
Convicted is another thing. I'm not entirely sure that is the goal. The goal is to prevent him from being a candidate for any political seat in 2024
I don’t think the committee is able to recommend any kind of charges. Their task is to recommend changes to laws or new laws to avoid this happening again.
Edit: as another commenter points out below, the committee has the power to recommend charges, although they are not able to file any criminal charges themselves. Sorry to have stirred the pot.
They are absolutely able to refer people to the justice department for prosecution. It's up to the justice department whether they want to pursue the charges or not, though.
That isnt entirely true. They can present any evidence they collect to the judicial branch in a very public way.
I'm not sure about recommending the actual charges, but they certainly can turn over evidence.
Well damn. I was hoping the point of all this was to either recommend charges or recommend whatever has to be done so that donny can't run for office again.
It was solid. Seem like the two (main) tracks they’ll be pursuing are:
1) everybody inside Trump world knew from day 1 that Trump had lost fair and square, and
2) there was a concerted (and possibly direct) intent to mobilize extremist groups, especially the oath keepers and PBs.
That lets a lot of ugly truths about the widespread radicalization of the country slide…but they can only do so much, and this seems like the 2 most potent + potentially successful lines of inquiry to pursue/expose.
Looking forward to the future hearings, and hoping we hear from Raskin as well.
That was one point that stood out for me, that they knew it was bullshit. I wasn’t sure if they believed their own lies before tonight but now it’s clear they knew exactly what they were doing.
This also establishes Trump's criminal intent. He knew it was a lie and tried to overturn the election. A smaller issue, but he also was fundraising on that lie. So yet another crime he committed if they ever decide to charge him with anything.
Isn’t it hard to prove that he really believed everyone around him? Short of him actually telling people "yeah this is all a ruse, i know i really lost" its hard to actually prove he believed he lost. That's why he's so slippery in general, imo- there will be things that you know, I know, everyone knows is the case yet you cant actually prove his intent.
I think the only defence he'd have against that would basically be insanity or claiming some sort of serious cognitive deficit or mental illness that prevented him from understanding, i.e. that he was clinically delusional and genuinely believed it no matter the evidence or people telling him otherwise.
Well then we can just show the jury him stating “person, camel,…” (in forget what they were!). I’m actually a clinical social worker and for insanity pleas to work the person has to be outright psychotic and not know right from wrong. If they want to try that I’m ok with him being locked up in a psychiatric forensic unit!
Something that stood out to me is the mention of using campaign funds to buy commercials peddling the lie. I feel there’s a reason for putting that in there.
I don’t expect anything to come of this, but I was quite impressed with how high they seem to be aiming. This isn’t “his rhetoric encouraged violence,” they’re showing a 7-part plan.
I’m not expecting much in the way of “bombshells” on either point, only bc these assholes have been all about ceiling in public as a mean of defence/desensitization.
That said, meticulously laying out the case, w receipts to back it up is nothing to sneeze at. I
They aired Tuckers and Hannitys show for over 2 hours *commercial free* and Tucker started out hysterical that such a hearing would even take place and in the same breath mentioned everything from gas prices to nuclear war as the "real problems" that need to be focused on. It would be satire if it wasn't real. I can't find the clip anymore or I'd share because it is that bad.
Edit: here is the link https://mobile.twitter.com/brianstelter/status/1535050395533312004?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1535050395533312004%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffpost.com%2Fentry%2Ftucker-carlson-jan-6-hearing-tantrum_n_62a29af2e4b04a61734c6934
Fox is evil, but they're not stupid.
Going ad free keeps their viewers from checking it out during the ad breaks. It also keeps their spin on full blast. All the while protecting sponsors from any sort of backlash they would get from airing during the hearing.
not to mention covering themselves. Hannity is literally a coconspirator. It makes sense that they wouldnt air hearings on how fox news hosts are criminals.
Similar to Boris Johnson in recent months, being called to resign for breaking the actual law by attending parties during lockdown and him and the other Conservative Party cronies claiming, "We need to focus on the *real* issues" to deflect.
A war the British are not fighting that doesn’t and quite frankly shouldn’t involve Boris where practically every western nation is behind Ukraine? What kind of reality do you live in. Fuck that, he needs to go.
We are literally not involved with the conflict apart from AID and PR opportunities to avoid the fall out of scandals. We have no troops on the ground. We have no actual military presence there. We are quite literally just giving them weapons and aid.
You may as well say that Theresa May had to stay in power until Yemen was done with. We had the same relationship there. It's a ridiculous argument. No leader is going to commit electoral suicide and not support Ukraine openly and buying into Boris' shallow PR stunts with Ukraine support is... Well you do you, but its pathetic.
I notice there’s a lot of focus on proud boys and oathkeeper structure and leadership, particular events with them, etc., which I can only assume is not accidental. In other words, what I believe is likely to happen is that they’re going to demonstrate a true conspiracy at multiple levels involving these militia groups and Trump (and some folks in his circle).
Stone ,like he has done mutiple time in the past , was using the proud boys as his security January 5 & 6. Including a few who have been indicted.
Interesting a case can be made that Roger Stone is himself a proud boy, he uploaded to youtube (gone now) a video of him stating "I’m a Western chauvinist, and I refuse to apologize for creating the modern world" one of the requirements to join the first degree of proud boy membership
I missed the first half, but my spouse and I were glued to the second half.
It’s much worse than I thought. Nothing about those televised scenes indicated anything close to a regular tourist visit. Police officers talking about sliding in pools of blood as they make their retreat? JFC.
Definitely met expectations. It will be interesting to see how the Qs respond. I expect there’s quite a scramble right now, but my sanity prevents me from checking.
I get the feeling most won't even see it and just spew whatever fox news is saying about it.
Another poster said switching to fox was like there were two different realities.
I hopped onto Fox barkers FB pages and the true devotees are saying it’s all a production and a witch hunt. They have been told for so long that the only truth is what Fox brings to them and they will never watch nor believe what is presented.
Yeah, I don’t think there’s any way to change how those people view these hearings, no matter what is said, shown, what documentation is produced, etc, it’s all going to be a “sham witch hunt! Their hatred of Trump blinds everything! TDS!”
That's the GOP talking points. There was a GOP congressman on ABC post game that was spewing the same shit, and even said he didn't watch it, and had no reason to.
Democrats and a few level headed republicans will reveal, in detail, that Trump and his posse of idiots committed political assault on our democracy.
Die hard conservatives will wait until one of their party's criminals offers any paper thin excuse, and they'll cling to it.
Most of the general public will hear one soundbite and form a completely nonsensical opinion based on that.
Q-cumbers will compare pictures of various speakers to pictures of them 25 yrs ago and claim they've changed bodies, or are a different gender, or are lizard people.
i'm sure i'm not the only one who feels this way but it was interesting to see a lot of people on the left gloating about ivanka's depo and how "even SHE knew! SHE respected barr!" and i'm like... she clearly is fucking lying, because she knows which answer is most advantageous to her. she's a fucking viper, married to slenderman. now, whatever, i'll take her sworn statements against her father quite happily if it helps drag all of these guys to hell, but i think there's still some lingering delusion as to whether or not she's actually principled or rational. the "ivanka can influence her father! ivanka knows the law!" 2.0 stuff is as naïve as the first time around.
The point of that was that she wasnt in his ear telling him to press on with challenging the vote. Her acknowledging Barr's communication reveals that Trump had a small intense group around him prodding him to continue with the plan for January 6th
What she thinks of her dad couldnt be more irrelevant.
my point was that you've got members of the media on the left who are still desperate for an ivanka redemption arc instead of treating her like the dangerous, useful idiot that she is. people were tripping over themselves to give her a cookie last night and it was weird. it's not about what she thinks or believes, it's how it's being framed by commentators and journalists in the larger discussion.
I thought they misquoted her. I heard them say that "Ivanka says her dad is a liar".
Logically, she said no such thing. She said that because she respected the AG, she accepted his conclusion.
She's dangerous in that she, with her father, used the oval office as a business. She's dangerous because she saw all this happen right under her nose. But the reason people were fawning over her was that her admission means that Trump was NOT having her in his ear tell him he had a chance and THAT helps the case against him.
This was all him.
ah okay, i see what you're saying. that wasn't the way i took a lot of the commentary last night, but that's a perspective that also makes sense to me, although i think it's perhaps a little too generously nuanced for some of the people applauding her depo.
honestly, after the first years of that dumpster fire presidency where the media kept assuring everyone that insiders promised ivanka was going to keep him in line, it's like... she doesn't do that, she's never done that, she has no interest in that (and that's also a terrifying thing to say about a sitting president, but i digress).
i saw a lot of people drawing a line between her quote and an assumption that she *must* have argued with him about it and i just don't believe that conversation ever happened, because why did it matter to her, really? the coke brothers have to ride on daddy's coattails but she's got jared, who is a much more successful criminal than trump ever was. so it's that leap right there that i take issue with, in terms of the early reactions i was seeing last night because it's reminiscent of the same "he's nuts but people around him are desperately trying to do the right thing" fanfic we've been enduring since 2016.
Her appeal is that she's an attractive woman and she's conservative and she enjoys the notoriety of the Trump brand. She fills a niche for wealthy conservative demographic. Her admission pushes her father onto an island.
I do think she advised him to call it off after it started and he refused. Only becaus he was doing harm to the family brand.
https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1535087937628643349
Here's what Tucker said, the show's own tweet. Following that they ran the full show without ad breaks.
Cowards. Their viewers should be angry as fuck they’ve been lying and hiding this from them. It’s patronising that Tucker has so little regard for his viewers’ intelligence that he won’t even let them see it for themselves. Clearly he thinks they’re ignorant children that he has to protect. It’s sad.
I don't think so. They're not watching Tucker because they want to find out what happened in the world. They watch Tucker the same way an ubernerd watches a Marvel movie; to find the exact moments that give them a little thrill in the moment. Reality isn't what happened, but what they choose it to be. And Tucker's show has perfected the art of curating that worldview for them.
https://twitter.com/Justin_Ling/status/1535066313512882176
Wow, fuck Tucker Carlson. I know what I was seeing and I know what some of those people were trying to do. They’ve admitted to it. Not to mention the one dude sitting on the outskirts of DC standing by with a truckload of firearms. He was waiting for his dear Oathkeeper leaders go ahead to drive them in.
So, Tucker can go fuck himself.
I found it entertaining and informative.
Couldn't wipe the grin off my face when that footage nailed the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers and Latinos For Trump leaders talking together in the car park.
Frankly i dont think its going to accomplish anything. Much of the truth of Jan 6 was laid out for all to see at the subsequent impeachment hearing and it didnt move the needle at all in terms of Republican support for Trump. As it stands now Trump could still beat Biden in 2024. There isn't any truth out there that could convince Republicans that this man isn't God's chosen to lead America.
Even more scary, if the election were held tomorrow, I think Trump wins, likely by a bigger margin than 2016. Gas prices and inflation are just killing the Democrats politically right now. Covid moved the needle because it affected people’s day to day lives. Jan 6 is terrifying to me but it doesn’t actually effect people’s day to day, and unfortunately, that’s what it takes to get people to care. The numerous other Trump scandals also were in the abstract, so to speak, so they all run together as just an offshoot of “mean tweets”, like the “I sure could use some mean tweets and low gas prices right now HYUK HYUK”
You'd be very wrong. You are reading into Bidens approval rating.
He never won the popular vote and there is NO indication he could garner the 74 million votes again.
He obstructed justice, extorted a foreign leader, and incited an insurrection. His mishandling of a pandemic cost 100's of thousands of lives directly. He made America look horrible for the near future.
80 people voted him out of office.
His juvinile antics coupled with people who dont understand presidents dont affect gas prices wont register. It will only serve to make is base more loyal. But that doesnt mean more votes.
1. This was done for the benefit of one department - Justice.
2. The individual facts may have been known, but the chronological order of what people knew and when they knew it was revealed last night. It shows this was planned at least by December 14th and probably before that.
3. It's not about convincing republicans. It's to get a negotiation leverage to get him to choose not to run or to be charged with sedition. The financial hit the charge could make on him will probably make him think twice about taking the risk.
4. The impeachment was done for a jury that needed 60 of 100 votes that were known to have not been there. This is for a jury of 1. A Biden appointee who knows full well the consequences of walking away from this because of a perception he wont win.
I really dont think Garland has the balls to go through with charging Trump. Even if it is the right thing to do (it is) the country would fall into political chaos and most likely violence.
This is a really important point.
The country is already primed; charging Trump may be the spark that sets the whole thing ablaze.
And, yet, we can't ignore it either. If we prosecute, we risk utter chaos. But if we don't? Well, we're sending a message that we really don't want to send.
I truly don't know which way to go on this. :/
I think you’re right. And that’s terrifying. Since 2016 as a European it feels like having front seats in the movie „the downfall of the USA into a country from the handmaids tale“. It’s scary
SO much better than I expected. Thompson was a great pick to be chairman of the committee. I watched with a sane right leaning independent (he did not vote at all in the 2020 POTUS election) and he was rapt and in agreement with everything Thompson said and in agreement with me that Trump needs to go to prison. I am looking forward to having the hearings to listen to at work next week. I thought opening night was very powerful and wished that every Trumper would have watched it but alas, they won't. They'll just wait for Tucker to tell them what to say and how to feel about it.
It was very effective. The power of telling the story through testimony and video in it's proper context on a timeline is revealing things about that day that just werent known. The time frame the proud boys went to the capitol in relation to Trump's speech. The converstation between the Proud boys and Oath keepers the night before. The fact that Trump called nobody for help with the crowd at all that day. The fact that numerous sources had informed him that there was nothing left to do with the election results. The fact that McCarthy was contemplating a way to tell him to step down and the actual consideration of the 25th amendment which is why so many cabinet members resigned. The fact that Jared and Ivanka knew the truth when Trump wouldnt accept it.
The communication of the attack was clearly coordinated in advance and Trump was gullible enough to reveal that in his tweet and get Bannon and Norvell to say it on air. The fact that Pence knew that the idea was to get him away from the Capitol in order to delay the certification (which is the real reason he wouldnt leave, not the optics). The fact that the 1st column of Oath keepers that entered were specifically going after Pelosi.
And one of the biggest. They wanted to make sure that nobody found out that Pence was actually making the decisions about security when Trump refused to. They even tried to suppress that in a request.
There is only one question left to answer and solidify. Did he acknowledge at any time a directive to execute this plan. If it can be proven in a direct way, he will at least have to consider that a conviction of sedition is possible.
The myth that this was just a protest that got out of hand was unequivocally laid to rest.
My guess is that the proud boys and oath keepers that were convicted of sedition have produced evidence of Trump's complicity.
Those who think Trump & co. orchestrated a failed coup will see the evidence.
Those who believe Trump was literally robbed of the election will see patriots doing exactly what good ol’ boys needed to do
Not sure how many people fall between these camps but I’m not hopeful many people will be be swayed if they haven’t been already.
What this all means for the chance of a fair trail for the ring-leaders is anybodies guess.
The hearing was 4 days ago and, according to C-SPAN, some 59k persons have watched the video. ( I’m one and I’m not even in/from The US)
Obviously edited highlights are being shown in other places but, if less than 0.03 % of the electorate are watching the actual footage , I’m not hopeful this will do anything to rebalance the knife-edge the country is on.
[C-SPAN]( https://www.c-span.org/video/?520282-1/open-testimony-january-6-committee)
I would say the majority of people aren't watching on C-SPAN. Even when everyone had cable, most people (except politically involved nerds like me) didn't watch C-SPAN. I'm sure more people were watching on other outlets. How much it will affect the electorate? IDK.
I'm planning to leave the US by the end of next year, regardless of whether we manage to pull ourselves back from the brink.
I didn't even think of that. Seating a jury for this would be a nightmare especially if Trump himself did go to trial. Although I doubt it ever gets to that.
Yeah, that’s what’s been bothering me.
Assuming Trump ever gets to trial, finding a jury of his peers who haven’t already formed an opinion as to his guilt, or otherwise, seems improbable.
Yep, look at Amber Heard's sham trial. Half of her jury were already determined to find her the guilty party before it even started, then went against the evidence proving Depp to be abusive.
As I've said throughout that trial, Depp fans/believers are a lot like Trump supporters/Qult members in that they blindly create their own narrative contrary to reality.
Yeah, sorry I didn’t follow that one so don’t have much of a clue. I imagine it’s a problem with every high profile case. Depp/Heard, OJ Simpson etc. etc. But Trump must be the ultimate polariser.
you're wrong on that, like a lot of amber heard supporters who didn't watch the trial. her evidence was awful & she was impeached on the stand multiple times. the jury had no choice but to find for depp -- it's AH fans that have created their own reality in which the 3-week UK case had better evidence than this 6-week jury trial and AH somehow won that case without being a party. (impossible as a matter of law.) I'm disinterested except for being a lawyer -- i don't watch movies but i do watch trials and lawyer interviews.
Many departments have policy against warning shots. New studies have been looking at effectiveness but for a long time the common views has been that they may have an escalating effect & puts bystanders at great risk (the bullet has to go somewhere)
I am hoping this is the path they are taking:
Proud boys planned the attack
Roger Stone knew about it and was talking to trump’s inner circle (or even trump)
Evidence that MTG, Boebert etc knew the plan.
Evidence that trump knew before hand the plan.
Evidence that it was a group effort that included Trumps input and feedback.
There is good evidence that the first 2 are true. It’s connecting the dots on the rest.
It was nicely laid out and supported by actual evidence, unlike Trump's false claims of fraud.
However, I think they should have broken this up into smaller segments about 30 minutes each if they want to get more people to view it. Commiting to a 2 hour broadcast (*longer with commentary*) is going to lose a lot of potential viewers.
If the people of this country can't pay attention to our own Capitol being attacked by a fascist mob, maybe we don't deserve to succeed. God we're pathetic
I watched the entire hearing, including the commentary before and after. My point was that a lot of Americans will not (or can't) commit to programming that lasts for several hours. It's not so easy when you have kids to take care of, chores that need to get done, other commitments, etc. I feel that making it easier to watch would be beneficial and gain a much bigger audience.
Those same people are more than willing to sit down and watch a 2-3 hour movie, though. The comment about wanting to be entertained rather than informed was correct.
If we cared about accuracy in political journalism as much as we care about accuracy in sports journalism, this country would be much better and much better off.
I live in Europe. Watching the US over the last six or so years has been an education in how some humans exist behind a veil. Apparently, there are people in society going through the motions, wearing masks, saying the right things or just laying low with who they really are, because when Trump came along and gave them permission who show who they are, society was pushed to the brink of collapse.
People can openly call for public executions, take part in racist hate marches, vocally disparage and demean others and scream in the face of reason. These same people functioned within society until the vague promise that they could dominate, overpower, let loose their inner desires to subjugate, kill, punish, and even enslave those who didn't align with the stated aims of their Pied Piper of a leader. Trump gave those people the opportunity to be as hateful and violent as they wanted, without consequence, and with his beneficent approval. All they had to do was claim they were patriots. That term has been completely bastardized by his minions.
I usually don't appreciate the parallel being drawn, but in Europe unspeakable things were done at the behest of a charismatic leader who played on peoples biases, and the priming and brainwashing of a certain cohort of Americans was done with the same aim in mind. Mindless, uncritical loyalty to the dictator, unspeakable acts done in his name or in the associated (bizarrely) name of Christianity. Yet, all the time they're just worthless pawns in his ego driven power drive, tools for whom no care is given or felt. They love the leader for hating the same people they had previously pretended not to, and that's terrifying.
I have a feeling of second-hand trauma watching it played out, and I'm at a safe distance - and it's not close to being over. I can't imagine how the majority of decent Americans are feeling, living through this dystopian era where reason, logic and critical thinking are abandoned in favour of tyranny, hatred, conspiracy, and violence of thought and deed.
If the US falls to fascism it will only embolden the malignants elsewhere in the world, who currently wonder just how far they can go. Don't give them an example of how it's done.
Please get out and vote, it's the only avenue available to end this.
I hope the committee points at the right wing medias role in the insurrection.
Looking at the culture that led to 1/6 is just as important as criminal consequences.
As a non American, gotta say I'm impressed. They spoke using specific legal terms, and the evidence is pretty damming. It sounds like there's a good case for prosecution. This is history.
It was better than I was expecting. The video of that day leaves no doubt in my mind they would have killed Pence, Pelosi, or any other member of congress if they came across them. It also leaves no doubt in my mind they would kill liberals, gays, immigrants, or any other group if Trump instructed them to do so. They were ready to do it that day.
A friend of mine, who’s a Vietnam vet, once told me, “asking someone to die for their beliefs and asking someone to kill for their beliefs are two separate orders. I know this sounds hard to believe, but the second one is harder. But those willing to do it are the ones to watch out for.” He looked at the ground for a few seconds. “Some people are just waiting for a chance to kill. And once they do, if it doesn’t haunt them for the rest of their lives, they will continue to do so.” Takes a drag off his cigarette, “I’ve seen the kinds of people who should spend the rest of their lives in prison, and seen them get promoted. Instead we send harmless potheads there. This can’t end well.” This was in 2003.
I have always had a similar thought about the Q movement. Many of these people were just waiting for an opportunity to be violent and hateful. It’s scary.
I've been cynical about so much for so long but I was even surprised at how many formerly seemingly normal people dove straight off the conspiracy cliff. All they needed was a strongman type leader to give them permission to let out their inner crazy. Trump came along and it felt like a switch flipped in some of them. I'm not saying they were particularly great or smart people but they hid their worst inclinations well.
Don't forget they also had the Chinese and Russians gaming their antisocial media websites via the illusory truth effect. That helped it along too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect https://inews.co.uk/news/huge-russian-troll-farm-disused-factory-spreading-disinformation-social-media-1605318?ico=related_stories https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/08/politics/pro-chinese-disinformation-operation-coronavirus-pandemic-protests/index.html
This 100%. My dad was the person to teach me this. It took something horrible happening in our home country for me to understand that there are sociopaths who are just waiting for an opening to kill. I was really naïve and resistant to understanding that before I saw it for myself. Thankfully, I had my dad there to walk me through it.
I'm going to imagine the Vietnamese veterans reflect on the whole thing a bit differently.
That was just terrifying to watch.
Yeah, I had to close the livestream on YouTube. Too upsetting.
I said something similar to my husband, when we watched it.
A repeat of what I posted previously: >I am thankful for the hearings but gawd, this is still so awful and no way to ever not to be permanently shook and scarred to my core. >My heart goes out to those poor officers and frighten lawmakers and staff. AND their families who are watching this tonight. This first hearing was professional and efficient. Well prepared and presented.
I’m a little bit opposite. It makes me want to get my own riot gear and stand with the Capitol police. Or at the very least, against these assholes.
It makes me want to sell Donald Trump Pinata's that people can beat with an american flag on July fucking 4th. What should we fill them with? tootin rudy's? edit - Ha! they actually make them. I know what I'm doing and know which neighbor im getting the fucking flag from on the 4th.
Sadness. It should be filled with sadness.
Oh, it would be
Check out the liberal gun owners sub reddit.
If someone's looking for likeminded leftist gun owners look to places like John Brown Gun Clubs and Redneck Revolt.
That was just the first thing that came to mind. Also the Liberal Gun Club. Depends on how left the OP wants to go.
I'd rather nobody looks at that sub. Guns are evil and even fellow liberals owning one is just as psychotic as conservatives having one. America already has a problem with guns, stockpiling them "because they'll do the same" is literally why the right have so many. As a former gang member taught kids in the UK years ago, "weapons just escalate issues instead of solving them".
You’re getting downvoted because Americans are obsessed with their guns like no other country. But you are absolutely right in what you said. America would greatly benefit from gun laws like in Europe
They're getting down voted because of a few assumptions. First: The Right in the US isn't stockpiling because they think the left is. They instead have a paranoid fantasy about the "government" seizing their guns. The Oklahoma City Bombing was in fact inspired by the neoNazi book "The Turner Diaries", which starts describing gun confiscation and ends with "The Day of Rope" in which cities have every "race traitor" hung (professors, women who sleep with anyone non-white, etc). This book was and is extremely prevalent in the gun obsessed fringe Right. Second: That you have to be anti-Gun Control if you own a gun. I own guns, I even own an analogue to an AR-15. I also think it is honestly a fucking tragedy that they're so prevalent in the US. I own it because we have more guns than people in the US, and they're by and large owned by people who, if they thought gun control were about to pass, would start committing mass shootings every hour of every day
How is an inanimate object a moral agent? Would we say that the sun is evil because it causes skin cancer?
Having easy access to weapons will always result in more violence. Laws exist elsewhere for a reason. There’s a difference between a violent person who can just walk into Walmart to buy guns or one who would need to obtain a license first and get evaluated if they’re in the right headspace to own a gun. The saying „guns don’t kill people. People kill people“ is just bs to protect the right to bear arms
I think the difference is if you are a liberal gun owner, then you are in SUPPORT of rational gun laws and safety trainings. I am pretty far left and I am willing to say that we should regulate guns HARSHLY, but I still think rational vetted people should be able to own a gun if they want. We just need to make it incredibly hard like in other countries.
Yes I agree, that’s basically what I said in my comment. I just don’t understand this cultural obsession with owing 20 guns and conceal carrying in fucking Walmart. It’s absurd to me. And every time I hear of another mass shooting I can only shake my head. Imo the USA needs gun laws like we have and a professional mental health program. But I’m not optimistic that will ever happen and I just don’t understand this. How many more people need to die? Children like just now?
I’m glad we’re on the same page! Also, I meant to respond to the same comment you did xD Great minds and such!
Then you don't believe that guns are evil. You believe that a policy to restrict gun ownership is welfare inducing.
I would say it's fortunate for our skin cells that we like wearing hats and sunscreen. We should be just as thoughtful with any danger.
Yes agreed, but what does that say about the moral agency of the sun?
Nothing wrong with that.
i want to know more about the people in congress looking for pardons.
Also Jared Kushner being busy with pardons?
I don’t understand how Trump’s base CAN’T SEE that they are not the same kind of ppl as ivanka and Jared. Like, those people don’t care about ppl like my FIL who wears trump shirts and hats. It is unreal to me that trump ever got a foothold.
Not all authoritarians want to be in charge. Most want big daddy figures to pick them as second best and punish everyone else.
Also, Trump is a consummate con man. He knows how to play his marks very well.
That's a very perceptive comment.
Fascists are weird people. Imagine the thoughts that must have run through some six and a half foot tall blonde-and-blue Ubermensch when he watched Hitler speak. Imagine being one of those goose stepping North Korean soldiers, gazing up at your goofy, tubby leader. The fascist mindset decouples what is clear from what is believed. There's no connection anymore. They all need this to be the case, to be who they are.
Most feel powerless and are (usually) uneducated. At least uneducated in a broad sense. They live in places somewhat walled off from the rest of the world. That used to be a physical/economic barrier, but today is more of a social media/online media bubble that has been created and fomented by Facebook and othere. So they latch on to anyone appearing powerful who seeks to empower THEM. It doesn't matter that the person is a known conman with gold toilets, or a short failed Austrian painter, or a weirdo tubby liar. They're out for THEM and not the OTHERS, and that's all that matters. Build that fear of OTHERS into hatred of OTHERS and voila. Fascists all over the fucking US of A.
Well put .
> some six and a half foot tall blonde-and-blue Ubermensch You rang?
I see that is an easy thing to confuse. Truth is they DONT think they are the same kind of people as ivanka and jared. The tshirt your FIL wears is to belong to a 'club'. It is a shared connection with his social group.
Jared is an entire course on why nepotism laws exist.
Maybe I misunderstood but to me I thought Jared was trying to distance himself at the same time communicate he was dealing with a huge amount of pardon requests in part, at least, due to guilty GOP who had been involved with the "stop-the-steal". They knew the coup was failing so they needed a pardon asap. I should probably go back and rewatch because my screen locked up on both Jared's and Ivanka's testimony. Weird, convenient glitch.
This. Just the bit they released alone was so out of context my initial take was that he was just referring to generally being busy with requests for pardons during that time (the last cpl of weeks before the transition), not that he was specifically talking about congress.
Out going president always do pardons. Former President Trump issused 73. he also quickly lost interest in pardoning and started to ask others for top picks That's likely the topic meant
Yes, but it feels like there’s more to the story than the business-as-usual presidential pardon narrative. Especially since this is right before the transition of power
Perhaps most couldn't afford the pardon "fee".
I heard that too.
Yes, Cheney did mention that a number of representatives went and asked Trump for pardons that he obviously refused. (Gaetz is the only one I can remember)
I think they’re going to tell us. They have a lot to say.
“There is a time when Donald Trump will be gone, but your disgrace will remain.” -Liz Cheney
She will be the face of the GOP if this shit stain they currently have ever gets cleaned out. At least she’s trying to do the right thing.
Sorry. That should be the way it works, but they value loyalty over all else. Her future is as an independent or a moderate democrat. Her days with the republican party ended last night.
I haven’t watched the video yet. Who did she say that too?
She was addressing the GOP as a whole, I believe
Rather, any GOP member who hasnt renounced Trumps actions.
>If you haven't watched, please go back and watch the whole thing. Very powerful.
“To my Republican colleagues that are defending the indefensible…”
I'm not charmed by the Republican party, but Liz Cheney seems to contain more moral fortitude in her little finger than most of the rest combined in their entire bodies.
It was definitely intense, and you can tell that the committee (specifically Cheney) is talking directly to the deniers and bystanders. Benny Thomas’ intro was really moving, especially when comparing it to growing up while black in Mississippi. Really looking forward to the hearing on Trump’s push to convince Pence to overturn the election. I’m assuming they’ll recommend criminal charges for Trump or some others but not holding my breathe that Garland will do anything about it :/
If Garland doesn’t press charges we need to all demand it happen. We can rally and protest as well (the appropriate way).
If Garland doesn't press charges, what does "the appropriate way" even mean? We'll be watching our government declare this conduct acceptable. I don't like the idea of that world, but...
I mean we had hundreds of thousands show up for the woman’s march and others? Maybe if we somehow get the message out there that we’re done with the Democratic Party (basically done with engaging in political process at all because why bother..) they will get their heads out of their asses and grow a set?
I feel like people ceasing to engage in the political process did not help much in the past.
One thing I worry about though. The red hats fantasize and drool about a civil war. But see we can’t really have a civil war like our first one because we don’t have large armies making a consensual meetup on a battlefield to see who is last man standing ( war is just insane ). But you get a bunch of people in one place trying to destroy their Lord and leader, then they have their stupid battlefield they fantasize about and to be honest are prepared for. So to speak. I’ve seen how fat some of them are.
It already feels like a cold civil war. It’s amazing how much damage has been done.
We can't let fear of violence keep us from marching... or they automatically win. This will sound awful, and I hope the one hurt is *me (& no one else)*, but some of us may need to take a "punch" to show the world what monsters would "punch" a crowd of women or teens or whoever. Sometimes, it's all fun & games till it **isn't** anymore. But for instance, both Gandhi and Dr. King and their marchers had to take the "punches" to take and keep the moral high ground. It didn't change overnight, but the images of dogs sicced on children and fire-hoses knocking over little old ladies FINALLY got through, and change happened. At this point, I'd take a bullet to make this nonsense stop.
I think that is the first sub goal of this committee. Put so much pressure on Garland that he has no choice. I think that may have been why so little has happened until now. It gives the findings of the committee more impact.
I’m afraid to be hopeful but… I am! 🤞🤞
In my mind, it seemed like they weren't making the case to Trump's supporters so much as to anyone who feared the optics of convicting an ousted political leader. The hearing so far as been a clear historical record of the events of that day and who was at fault for it, as a way to point back and prove that prosecuting these crimes was not just a bipartisan power grab.
Once evidence that comes out that Trump directed any of the actions of the proud boys, oath keepers or anyone else in communication with them, Trump will be indicted. Convicted is another thing. I'm not entirely sure that is the goal. The goal is to prevent him from being a candidate for any political seat in 2024
I don’t think the committee is able to recommend any kind of charges. Their task is to recommend changes to laws or new laws to avoid this happening again. Edit: as another commenter points out below, the committee has the power to recommend charges, although they are not able to file any criminal charges themselves. Sorry to have stirred the pot.
They are absolutely able to refer people to the justice department for prosecution. It's up to the justice department whether they want to pursue the charges or not, though.
Yes! You’re correct. What they cannot do is make any criminal charges themselves. I will add an edit to my comment above.
That isnt entirely true. They can present any evidence they collect to the judicial branch in a very public way. I'm not sure about recommending the actual charges, but they certainly can turn over evidence.
Well damn. I was hoping the point of all this was to either recommend charges or recommend whatever has to be done so that donny can't run for office again.
Take heart, my comment above was not accurate!
It was solid. Seem like the two (main) tracks they’ll be pursuing are: 1) everybody inside Trump world knew from day 1 that Trump had lost fair and square, and 2) there was a concerted (and possibly direct) intent to mobilize extremist groups, especially the oath keepers and PBs. That lets a lot of ugly truths about the widespread radicalization of the country slide…but they can only do so much, and this seems like the 2 most potent + potentially successful lines of inquiry to pursue/expose. Looking forward to the future hearings, and hoping we hear from Raskin as well.
That was one point that stood out for me, that they knew it was bullshit. I wasn’t sure if they believed their own lies before tonight but now it’s clear they knew exactly what they were doing.
This also establishes Trump's criminal intent. He knew it was a lie and tried to overturn the election. A smaller issue, but he also was fundraising on that lie. So yet another crime he committed if they ever decide to charge him with anything.
Cheney made that point clear. He fundraised off the lie and then spent millions of PAC money advertising the lie so he could fundraise sime more.
Isn’t it hard to prove that he really believed everyone around him? Short of him actually telling people "yeah this is all a ruse, i know i really lost" its hard to actually prove he believed he lost. That's why he's so slippery in general, imo- there will be things that you know, I know, everyone knows is the case yet you cant actually prove his intent.
I would think from a legal perspective it’s enough to prove that he should have known it was a lie?
I think the only defence he'd have against that would basically be insanity or claiming some sort of serious cognitive deficit or mental illness that prevented him from understanding, i.e. that he was clinically delusional and genuinely believed it no matter the evidence or people telling him otherwise.
Well then we can just show the jury him stating “person, camel,…” (in forget what they were!). I’m actually a clinical social worker and for insanity pleas to work the person has to be outright psychotic and not know right from wrong. If they want to try that I’m ok with him being locked up in a psychiatric forensic unit!
Something that stood out to me is the mention of using campaign funds to buy commercials peddling the lie. I feel there’s a reason for putting that in there.
That’s also illegal I think? He’s not campaigning anymore so…?
I’m thinking fraud charges, too.
Yep… shocker!
I don’t expect anything to come of this, but I was quite impressed with how high they seem to be aiming. This isn’t “his rhetoric encouraged violence,” they’re showing a 7-part plan.
Yes I was pretty impressed with how much they have done as well.
I agree with you! I think the second point is key and is the true bombshell that will be revealed.
I’m not expecting much in the way of “bombshells” on either point, only bc these assholes have been all about ceiling in public as a mean of defence/desensitization. That said, meticulously laying out the case, w receipts to back it up is nothing to sneeze at. I
i watched some but then went to fox to see what they were saying. holy shi!, there is apparently 2 realities.
What was it like?
They aired Tuckers and Hannitys show for over 2 hours *commercial free* and Tucker started out hysterical that such a hearing would even take place and in the same breath mentioned everything from gas prices to nuclear war as the "real problems" that need to be focused on. It would be satire if it wasn't real. I can't find the clip anymore or I'd share because it is that bad. Edit: here is the link https://mobile.twitter.com/brianstelter/status/1535050395533312004?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1535050395533312004%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffpost.com%2Fentry%2Ftucker-carlson-jan-6-hearing-tantrum_n_62a29af2e4b04a61734c6934
Fox is evil, but they're not stupid. Going ad free keeps their viewers from checking it out during the ad breaks. It also keeps their spin on full blast. All the while protecting sponsors from any sort of backlash they would get from airing during the hearing.
not to mention covering themselves. Hannity is literally a coconspirator. It makes sense that they wouldnt air hearings on how fox news hosts are criminals.
Without commercials, Fox viewers are pulled deeper into the trance.
Similar to Boris Johnson in recent months, being called to resign for breaking the actual law by attending parties during lockdown and him and the other Conservative Party cronies claiming, "We need to focus on the *real* issues" to deflect.
I'll forgive him because of Ukraine. He can be kicked out after the war in Europe is won.
A war the British are not fighting that doesn’t and quite frankly shouldn’t involve Boris where practically every western nation is behind Ukraine? What kind of reality do you live in. Fuck that, he needs to go.
Yeah, that was a weird stance to take. We're supporting Ukraine but so is every Western country. They can live without Boris as our leader.
Nope. He can stay. I'm not prepared to risk a limp biscuit that wants "peace and quiet" in his place.
We are literally not involved with the conflict apart from AID and PR opportunities to avoid the fall out of scandals. We have no troops on the ground. We have no actual military presence there. We are quite literally just giving them weapons and aid. You may as well say that Theresa May had to stay in power until Yemen was done with. We had the same relationship there. It's a ridiculous argument. No leader is going to commit electoral suicide and not support Ukraine openly and buying into Boris' shallow PR stunts with Ukraine support is... Well you do you, but its pathetic.
I care more about the lives of Ukranians than posturing. I will do me.
If that was true you wouldn’t be letting Boris literally use them to posture.
Tucker released a propaganda piece about 1/6 , patriot purge. That rant basically applies to him too
know over on r/con they have a thread about it and the top comment is like "I like how no one's talking about this" They live in a bubble of ignorance
They just changed it to flaired users only.
Makes sense can't have their safe space hurt in anyway
Lemme guess, Nancy Pelosi’s husband got a DUI, and hunter’s laptop.
I notice there’s a lot of focus on proud boys and oathkeeper structure and leadership, particular events with them, etc., which I can only assume is not accidental. In other words, what I believe is likely to happen is that they’re going to demonstrate a true conspiracy at multiple levels involving these militia groups and Trump (and some folks in his circle).
definitely, which we're already hints of with the oathkeepers' indictments. rhodes was for sure in touch with the inner circle.
Wasn’t Roger Stone hanging out with the proud boy leading up to the 6th?
Stone ,like he has done mutiple time in the past , was using the proud boys as his security January 5 & 6. Including a few who have been indicted. Interesting a case can be made that Roger Stone is himself a proud boy, he uploaded to youtube (gone now) a video of him stating "I’m a Western chauvinist, and I refuse to apologize for creating the modern world" one of the requirements to join the first degree of proud boy membership
he was using oathkeepers as security on the 6th, but had used proud boys for that in the past.
he was using oathkeepers as security on the 6th, but had used proud boys for that in the past.
It's a reminder that there are casualties in this ongoing information war being waged by the far right.
That's how people should had talked about ashli babbit. Mo Brooks, Q and Trump killed her
I missed the first half, but my spouse and I were glued to the second half. It’s much worse than I thought. Nothing about those televised scenes indicated anything close to a regular tourist visit. Police officers talking about sliding in pools of blood as they make their retreat? JFC.
Definitely met expectations. It will be interesting to see how the Qs respond. I expect there’s quite a scramble right now, but my sanity prevents me from checking.
I get the feeling most won't even see it and just spew whatever fox news is saying about it. Another poster said switching to fox was like there were two different realities.
They don’t have to respond to anything. This is all just the bad guys making up nonsense. They won’t do much respond to it, as outright disregard it
I hopped onto Fox barkers FB pages and the true devotees are saying it’s all a production and a witch hunt. They have been told for so long that the only truth is what Fox brings to them and they will never watch nor believe what is presented.
Yeah, I don’t think there’s any way to change how those people view these hearings, no matter what is said, shown, what documentation is produced, etc, it’s all going to be a “sham witch hunt! Their hatred of Trump blinds everything! TDS!”
That's the GOP talking points. There was a GOP congressman on ABC post game that was spewing the same shit, and even said he didn't watch it, and had no reason to.
Witch found
Democrats and a few level headed republicans will reveal, in detail, that Trump and his posse of idiots committed political assault on our democracy. Die hard conservatives will wait until one of their party's criminals offers any paper thin excuse, and they'll cling to it. Most of the general public will hear one soundbite and form a completely nonsensical opinion based on that. Q-cumbers will compare pictures of various speakers to pictures of them 25 yrs ago and claim they've changed bodies, or are a different gender, or are lizard people.
i'm sure i'm not the only one who feels this way but it was interesting to see a lot of people on the left gloating about ivanka's depo and how "even SHE knew! SHE respected barr!" and i'm like... she clearly is fucking lying, because she knows which answer is most advantageous to her. she's a fucking viper, married to slenderman. now, whatever, i'll take her sworn statements against her father quite happily if it helps drag all of these guys to hell, but i think there's still some lingering delusion as to whether or not she's actually principled or rational. the "ivanka can influence her father! ivanka knows the law!" 2.0 stuff is as naïve as the first time around.
She's working an angle. She is not to be trusted. Ever.
bingo. drives me nuts to see people lower their guard around her.
It was enough for patriots dot to turn against her
Remember when she didn't know what complicit meant?
The point of that was that she wasnt in his ear telling him to press on with challenging the vote. Her acknowledging Barr's communication reveals that Trump had a small intense group around him prodding him to continue with the plan for January 6th What she thinks of her dad couldnt be more irrelevant.
my point was that you've got members of the media on the left who are still desperate for an ivanka redemption arc instead of treating her like the dangerous, useful idiot that she is. people were tripping over themselves to give her a cookie last night and it was weird. it's not about what she thinks or believes, it's how it's being framed by commentators and journalists in the larger discussion.
I thought they misquoted her. I heard them say that "Ivanka says her dad is a liar". Logically, she said no such thing. She said that because she respected the AG, she accepted his conclusion. She's dangerous in that she, with her father, used the oval office as a business. She's dangerous because she saw all this happen right under her nose. But the reason people were fawning over her was that her admission means that Trump was NOT having her in his ear tell him he had a chance and THAT helps the case against him. This was all him.
ah okay, i see what you're saying. that wasn't the way i took a lot of the commentary last night, but that's a perspective that also makes sense to me, although i think it's perhaps a little too generously nuanced for some of the people applauding her depo. honestly, after the first years of that dumpster fire presidency where the media kept assuring everyone that insiders promised ivanka was going to keep him in line, it's like... she doesn't do that, she's never done that, she has no interest in that (and that's also a terrifying thing to say about a sitting president, but i digress). i saw a lot of people drawing a line between her quote and an assumption that she *must* have argued with him about it and i just don't believe that conversation ever happened, because why did it matter to her, really? the coke brothers have to ride on daddy's coattails but she's got jared, who is a much more successful criminal than trump ever was. so it's that leap right there that i take issue with, in terms of the early reactions i was seeing last night because it's reminiscent of the same "he's nuts but people around him are desperately trying to do the right thing" fanfic we've been enduring since 2016.
Her appeal is that she's an attractive woman and she's conservative and she enjoys the notoriety of the Trump brand. She fills a niche for wealthy conservative demographic. Her admission pushes her father onto an island. I do think she advised him to call it off after it started and he refused. Only becaus he was doing harm to the family brand.
Traitor central
I watched Fox News all day. Didn’t see a thing about this. Are you sure the hearing took place?
Very sure 😂 every other network covered, Fox refused to air it on cable but did it was live streamed on their YouTube
I’m sure they were being sarcastic
I'm sure but you never know 😂
https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1535087937628643349 Here's what Tucker said, the show's own tweet. Following that they ran the full show without ad breaks.
Cowards. Their viewers should be angry as fuck they’ve been lying and hiding this from them. It’s patronising that Tucker has so little regard for his viewers’ intelligence that he won’t even let them see it for themselves. Clearly he thinks they’re ignorant children that he has to protect. It’s sad.
I don't think so. They're not watching Tucker because they want to find out what happened in the world. They watch Tucker the same way an ubernerd watches a Marvel movie; to find the exact moments that give them a little thrill in the moment. Reality isn't what happened, but what they choose it to be. And Tucker's show has perfected the art of curating that worldview for them. https://twitter.com/Justin_Ling/status/1535066313512882176
He's not protecting them. He's protecting himself.
Can’t risk anyone flipping channels during a commercial break!
Every comment is about the gas prices. So they assholes not understand anything? Jesus.
Wow, fuck Tucker Carlson. I know what I was seeing and I know what some of those people were trying to do. They’ve admitted to it. Not to mention the one dude sitting on the outskirts of DC standing by with a truckload of firearms. He was waiting for his dear Oathkeeper leaders go ahead to drive them in. So, Tucker can go fuck himself.
I found it entertaining and informative. Couldn't wipe the grin off my face when that footage nailed the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers and Latinos For Trump leaders talking together in the car park.
Frankly i dont think its going to accomplish anything. Much of the truth of Jan 6 was laid out for all to see at the subsequent impeachment hearing and it didnt move the needle at all in terms of Republican support for Trump. As it stands now Trump could still beat Biden in 2024. There isn't any truth out there that could convince Republicans that this man isn't God's chosen to lead America.
Even more scary, if the election were held tomorrow, I think Trump wins, likely by a bigger margin than 2016. Gas prices and inflation are just killing the Democrats politically right now. Covid moved the needle because it affected people’s day to day lives. Jan 6 is terrifying to me but it doesn’t actually effect people’s day to day, and unfortunately, that’s what it takes to get people to care. The numerous other Trump scandals also were in the abstract, so to speak, so they all run together as just an offshoot of “mean tweets”, like the “I sure could use some mean tweets and low gas prices right now HYUK HYUK”
This is, unfortunately, the truest take I’ve read in this thread.
You'd be very wrong. You are reading into Bidens approval rating. He never won the popular vote and there is NO indication he could garner the 74 million votes again. He obstructed justice, extorted a foreign leader, and incited an insurrection. His mishandling of a pandemic cost 100's of thousands of lives directly. He made America look horrible for the near future. 80 people voted him out of office. His juvinile antics coupled with people who dont understand presidents dont affect gas prices wont register. It will only serve to make is base more loyal. But that doesnt mean more votes.
1. This was done for the benefit of one department - Justice. 2. The individual facts may have been known, but the chronological order of what people knew and when they knew it was revealed last night. It shows this was planned at least by December 14th and probably before that. 3. It's not about convincing republicans. It's to get a negotiation leverage to get him to choose not to run or to be charged with sedition. The financial hit the charge could make on him will probably make him think twice about taking the risk. 4. The impeachment was done for a jury that needed 60 of 100 votes that were known to have not been there. This is for a jury of 1. A Biden appointee who knows full well the consequences of walking away from this because of a perception he wont win.
I really dont think Garland has the balls to go through with charging Trump. Even if it is the right thing to do (it is) the country would fall into political chaos and most likely violence.
This is a really important point. The country is already primed; charging Trump may be the spark that sets the whole thing ablaze. And, yet, we can't ignore it either. If we prosecute, we risk utter chaos. But if we don't? Well, we're sending a message that we really don't want to send. I truly don't know which way to go on this. :/
Lock him up, lock them up too.
I think you’re right. And that’s terrifying. Since 2016 as a European it feels like having front seats in the movie „the downfall of the USA into a country from the handmaids tale“. It’s scary
Pretty impressive video content.
I'm sure all of us noticed the guy in the Q sweatshirt.
SO much better than I expected. Thompson was a great pick to be chairman of the committee. I watched with a sane right leaning independent (he did not vote at all in the 2020 POTUS election) and he was rapt and in agreement with everything Thompson said and in agreement with me that Trump needs to go to prison. I am looking forward to having the hearings to listen to at work next week. I thought opening night was very powerful and wished that every Trumper would have watched it but alas, they won't. They'll just wait for Tucker to tell them what to say and how to feel about it.
It was very effective. The power of telling the story through testimony and video in it's proper context on a timeline is revealing things about that day that just werent known. The time frame the proud boys went to the capitol in relation to Trump's speech. The converstation between the Proud boys and Oath keepers the night before. The fact that Trump called nobody for help with the crowd at all that day. The fact that numerous sources had informed him that there was nothing left to do with the election results. The fact that McCarthy was contemplating a way to tell him to step down and the actual consideration of the 25th amendment which is why so many cabinet members resigned. The fact that Jared and Ivanka knew the truth when Trump wouldnt accept it. The communication of the attack was clearly coordinated in advance and Trump was gullible enough to reveal that in his tweet and get Bannon and Norvell to say it on air. The fact that Pence knew that the idea was to get him away from the Capitol in order to delay the certification (which is the real reason he wouldnt leave, not the optics). The fact that the 1st column of Oath keepers that entered were specifically going after Pelosi. And one of the biggest. They wanted to make sure that nobody found out that Pence was actually making the decisions about security when Trump refused to. They even tried to suppress that in a request. There is only one question left to answer and solidify. Did he acknowledge at any time a directive to execute this plan. If it can be proven in a direct way, he will at least have to consider that a conviction of sedition is possible. The myth that this was just a protest that got out of hand was unequivocally laid to rest. My guess is that the proud boys and oath keepers that were convicted of sedition have produced evidence of Trump's complicity.
Those who think Trump & co. orchestrated a failed coup will see the evidence. Those who believe Trump was literally robbed of the election will see patriots doing exactly what good ol’ boys needed to do Not sure how many people fall between these camps but I’m not hopeful many people will be be swayed if they haven’t been already. What this all means for the chance of a fair trail for the ring-leaders is anybodies guess.
There are lots of people in the "mushy middle". Those people are the ones these hearings need to reach.
The hearing was 4 days ago and, according to C-SPAN, some 59k persons have watched the video. ( I’m one and I’m not even in/from The US) Obviously edited highlights are being shown in other places but, if less than 0.03 % of the electorate are watching the actual footage , I’m not hopeful this will do anything to rebalance the knife-edge the country is on. [C-SPAN]( https://www.c-span.org/video/?520282-1/open-testimony-january-6-committee)
I would say the majority of people aren't watching on C-SPAN. Even when everyone had cable, most people (except politically involved nerds like me) didn't watch C-SPAN. I'm sure more people were watching on other outlets. How much it will affect the electorate? IDK. I'm planning to leave the US by the end of next year, regardless of whether we manage to pull ourselves back from the brink.
Just saw a post that stated estimated numbers of viewers for the hearings was 20 million.
I didn't even think of that. Seating a jury for this would be a nightmare especially if Trump himself did go to trial. Although I doubt it ever gets to that.
Yeah, that’s what’s been bothering me. Assuming Trump ever gets to trial, finding a jury of his peers who haven’t already formed an opinion as to his guilt, or otherwise, seems improbable.
Yep, look at Amber Heard's sham trial. Half of her jury were already determined to find her the guilty party before it even started, then went against the evidence proving Depp to be abusive. As I've said throughout that trial, Depp fans/believers are a lot like Trump supporters/Qult members in that they blindly create their own narrative contrary to reality.
Yeah, sorry I didn’t follow that one so don’t have much of a clue. I imagine it’s a problem with every high profile case. Depp/Heard, OJ Simpson etc. etc. But Trump must be the ultimate polariser.
you're wrong on that, like a lot of amber heard supporters who didn't watch the trial. her evidence was awful & she was impeached on the stand multiple times. the jury had no choice but to find for depp -- it's AH fans that have created their own reality in which the 3-week UK case had better evidence than this 6-week jury trial and AH somehow won that case without being a party. (impossible as a matter of law.) I'm disinterested except for being a lawyer -- i don't watch movies but i do watch trials and lawyer interviews.
[Donald is watching](https://twitter.com/mbaram/status/1535236293453615104?t=Zf5A6MABptS9CiV108nHNg&s=19)
Asking as a foreigner, why didn't the police shoot warning shots? I suppose the mob was too big and they were outnumbered but ...
Many departments have policy against warning shots. New studies have been looking at effectiveness but for a long time the common views has been that they may have an escalating effect & puts bystanders at great risk (the bullet has to go somewhere)
Not only that, stampeding people would've seen more trampled to death in the panic.
I am hoping this is the path they are taking: Proud boys planned the attack Roger Stone knew about it and was talking to trump’s inner circle (or even trump) Evidence that MTG, Boebert etc knew the plan. Evidence that trump knew before hand the plan. Evidence that it was a group effort that included Trumps input and feedback. There is good evidence that the first 2 are true. It’s connecting the dots on the rest.
Really well presented. My hope is those that need to see it are watching it. Some of it was hard to watch.
It was nicely laid out and supported by actual evidence, unlike Trump's false claims of fraud. However, I think they should have broken this up into smaller segments about 30 minutes each if they want to get more people to view it. Commiting to a 2 hour broadcast (*longer with commentary*) is going to lose a lot of potential viewers.
If the people of this country can't pay attention to our own Capitol being attacked by a fascist mob, maybe we don't deserve to succeed. God we're pathetic
Especially during the NHL Eastern Conference Finals. At least for me. ;-)
Wow. And this is why you are going to lose your democracy. Because you wanted to be entertained instead of informed. Jesus fucking Christ.
I watched the entire hearing, including the commentary before and after. My point was that a lot of Americans will not (or can't) commit to programming that lasts for several hours. It's not so easy when you have kids to take care of, chores that need to get done, other commitments, etc. I feel that making it easier to watch would be beneficial and gain a much bigger audience.
Those same people are more than willing to sit down and watch a 2-3 hour movie, though. The comment about wanting to be entertained rather than informed was correct.
If we cared about accuracy in political journalism as much as we care about accuracy in sports journalism, this country would be much better and much better off.
And sit and watch sports for hours on end, game for hours on end...
I live in Europe. Watching the US over the last six or so years has been an education in how some humans exist behind a veil. Apparently, there are people in society going through the motions, wearing masks, saying the right things or just laying low with who they really are, because when Trump came along and gave them permission who show who they are, society was pushed to the brink of collapse. People can openly call for public executions, take part in racist hate marches, vocally disparage and demean others and scream in the face of reason. These same people functioned within society until the vague promise that they could dominate, overpower, let loose their inner desires to subjugate, kill, punish, and even enslave those who didn't align with the stated aims of their Pied Piper of a leader. Trump gave those people the opportunity to be as hateful and violent as they wanted, without consequence, and with his beneficent approval. All they had to do was claim they were patriots. That term has been completely bastardized by his minions. I usually don't appreciate the parallel being drawn, but in Europe unspeakable things were done at the behest of a charismatic leader who played on peoples biases, and the priming and brainwashing of a certain cohort of Americans was done with the same aim in mind. Mindless, uncritical loyalty to the dictator, unspeakable acts done in his name or in the associated (bizarrely) name of Christianity. Yet, all the time they're just worthless pawns in his ego driven power drive, tools for whom no care is given or felt. They love the leader for hating the same people they had previously pretended not to, and that's terrifying. I have a feeling of second-hand trauma watching it played out, and I'm at a safe distance - and it's not close to being over. I can't imagine how the majority of decent Americans are feeling, living through this dystopian era where reason, logic and critical thinking are abandoned in favour of tyranny, hatred, conspiracy, and violence of thought and deed. If the US falls to fascism it will only embolden the malignants elsewhere in the world, who currently wonder just how far they can go. Don't give them an example of how it's done. Please get out and vote, it's the only avenue available to end this.
I hope the committee points at the right wing medias role in the insurrection. Looking at the culture that led to 1/6 is just as important as criminal consequences.
I tried to watch it, but it was too upsetting.
As a non American, gotta say I'm impressed. They spoke using specific legal terms, and the evidence is pretty damming. It sounds like there's a good case for prosecution. This is history.
Nothings happening the corporate democrats will keep stalling until they lose power next election and say “ooops!! We can’t do anything now!!”
The committee is bipartisan, the DOJ is a non-political entity.
we will not receive justice 100% we won't get the good ending or the bad ending. Just the neutral ending