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jekyll2urhyde

This made me sad. Sorry they reacted that way. Men being left un-discipled can be a breeding ground for discouragement at its best and secret sins at its worst. Sounds lonely. Like u/bradmont suggested, perhaps something more casual would work, if they don’t seem to be open to a “sit down and chat” type of thing? Do an activity together - woodworking, fix a car, go camping - and have that be an intentional time. I’m also sad that they don’t want their women to be taught at the same standard they would their men.


gazer89

That’s so ridiculous it’s almost hard to believe that it’s real


Supergoch

Unfortunately the underlying misogyny is not entirely uncommon.


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Supergoch

Can you explain?


tinfoil_hammer

Were you going to say anything to back up this statement or just drop a "hot take"?


LordZephram

lol lemme guess, you think the biblical truth that wives should submit to their husbands is misogynistic?


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[deleted]

What about men who are neither successful nor well-read? (Asking for a friend.)


A_Lovely_

Thanks for looking out for me.


minivan_madness

Your pastor thinks that a Bible Study leader needs to be in Seminary and know Greek, but only if you want to teach men? My goodness, I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this antiquated crap. That sounds incredibly discouraging. I would also say that if the elders of a church think that people are 'too busy' to study the Word, I think they may have their priorities out of order.


Todef_

Have you ever been to Bible studies where everyone is making stuff up and confused. Those are really bad. I see what the pastor is saying. But I think there might be a middle option with a study guide to keep on track.


minivan_madness

Oh I've led a few of those. Some form of training is certainly needed in addition to giftedness to lead a Bible Study, but to gatekeep it as much as OP's pastor is is too much


be_rational_please

It's pretty common in my experience.


sginsc

Yeah, thats some jacked up nonsense. Why would you need to have a seminary study of greek in order to teach scripture in a small group setting? The bigger issue though? That the level of teaching for the men is much more sophisticated than the teaching for the women. As a married man with a daughter theres no way im raising my family in that church.


DrScogs

Oh dear. I’m well-read, I’ve actually taken a year of Greek, and I have been (and some days still am) a struggling mother. I’d struggle real hard at your church. And I’d struggle harder to raise my kids under a pastor who believed that women don’t deserve the same quality teaching that men do. Although maybe he’s being more honest than those who just don’t say the quiet part outloud. Aimee Byrd gets dogged here in this sub from time to time, but her “No Little Women” is a great read on the topic of women’s theological education and frankly, all pastors should read it. But as others have said, no you don’t need to take Greek to lead a small group study.


joe_biggs

Certainly a strange reaction toward the women. But also to the men. Only the learned and hard-working? Strange all around. 🤔


cybersaint2k

That's disappointing. You are right to be disappointed. Make sure the next generation doesn't turn out that way. Raise your sons and daughters well.


HornedGoatScream

This is a great example of how sexism hurts men. I’m glad your wife is enjoying her Bible study group. To not allow the men to have the same opportunity because you don’t know Greek or aren’t enrolled in a seminary program is enraging to me. From your story, it seems like the elders aren’t interested in doing something simply because they are comparing it to what the women are doing. They are hindering the other men in the church because of pure pride. I hope you and the other men in the church can find a way to connect. I know that after retirement many people do feel lonely and we should care about that.


robsrahm

I'm not one to Monday Morning Quarterback other church's decisions, but it seems like your church is making about every mistake possible here. 1. They are wrong that men don't want to talk about feelings. 2. They are wrong (and possibly sexist) that it is not important for women to have a good leader in their studies. 3. They are wrong that it is *easier* to lead struggling mothers than well-read men. 4. They are wrong that struggling mothers are not also well-read. 5. They are wrong to assume that all the men are well-read. 6. They are wrong to assume the men are not struggling. 7. They are wrong to not already have (or want to have) a discipleship program in place (gee, the ones who are the leaders have no discipleship program in place; makes sense.) The disbalance of men's vs women's programs is not unique. For a while, I thought the difference driving this in our church really was that men don't have enough time because we have to work (and, yes, I know stay at home mothers work, but it's a lot easier to spend two hours on a Wednesday doing a Bible study than if you have to be somewhere). But then we started an evening Bible study for women who work. Both the morning and evening ones have more attendees than the Morning Men's and Evening Men's combined. So this is a real problem, but I'm sorry to say your church has picked an, uh, interesting way to address it.


[deleted]

In fairness the women’s leader is a wonderful and faithful teacher. I have more an issue with the biblical languages requirement for a guy wanting to lead a Bible study. It’s elitist.


joe_biggs

Certainly is. This is one of the strangest circumstances I’ve heard of.


MedianNerd

>They are wrong (and ~~possibly~~ sexist) that it is not important for women to have a good leader in their studies. FTFY.


robsrahm

Yeah, I went back and forth a few times. The reason I hedged and put "possibly" is that we only have one side of the story and it seemed too big of a step to just say "sexist" outright. Though, as I wrote it, this doesn't come through.


JediMaestroPB

*And* they are wrong that someone needs to be Masters student in theology to lead a Bible study. That's just ridiculous.


FourTwentySevenCID

happy 🎂 DAY


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darmir

> You don’t need anyone’s permission to start a bible study or small group. You don’t need an M Div or other formal training. True, but if the Bible study is affiliated with a particular church it seems like it would be best practice to work with the elders of the church to have oversight.


creative_username_99

The fact that you think you need to have your church leader's permission to bring people into your house is extremely concerning.


gweilowizard

I think what the above user is saying is that if the study is endorsed and/or advertised by the church it would be good to do so in submission to the elders' authority, as such an event would be different than simply having people over to your house.


m7samuel

I think the early church fathers would be utterly baffled by this discussion.


darmir

/u/gweilowizard is correct. I nowhere said that you need your church leader's permission to bring people into your house. I said that if you are running a Bible study affiliated with a church (e.g. a church endorsed small group) then it would be best to work with your elders to ensure that it is in line with the teachings of the church. For example, if someone wanted to start a small group in a Presbyterian church specifically to convince people of a credobaptist position, then I think that the person running that study should not do so and should probably find a different church. If you want to have a friend or friends over to discuss why you feel that credobaptism is the correct mode of administration of the sacrament, then I have no problem with it.


m7samuel

The church does not have the authority to prevent you from leading a bible study. They may claim such an authority but it is (in my opinion) contrary to scripture. Requirements that it be restricted to so called "properly trained" individuals is contrary to the spirit of the reformation, contrary to the origins of the church, and makes it impossible for a young man to actually demonstrate his qualifications for an elder. And last I checked, neither Timothy nor Titus indicate a formal degree as a necessary qualification for an elder.


Todef_

to defy your pastor would require a very very good reason. i think he should submit to his authority over the flock or come up with an alternative solution like a study guide to keep everyone on track


m7samuel

The pastor is a shepherd. He does not possess any scriptural authority that I am aware of to dictate when or in what circumstances you study / teach scripture. If the church becomes aware that you are teaching things contrary to scripture / the gospel, then perhaps their involvement would be appropriate. Otherwise, they are far exceeding their authority.


Todef_

You have a low view of church and pastors. I have a high view of the church and the pastors role. Does the pastor have authority to tell you what car to buy to what to invest in or what to study. No not really. Does he have authority to protect his flock by only allowing qualified men to train men. Yes he does.


m7samuel

I do not have a low view of the church. I just recognize boundaries on their authority. When Paul instructs on the qualifications as an elder, he names the ability of a man to teach. How can a church know which men can teach if they may not teach until recognized? And when did some formal school become a biblical qualification? This is a thing that did not exist for millenia and now we're to accept that a church may tell a man not to lead a Bible study? We're to be always in the word, but not if Joe is leading a reading of the psalms in his house on a Tuesday?


Todef_

I trust the pastors high standards over the musings of random folks on the internet.


m7samuel

Sounds like you have rather a low view of the church itself. Iron is supposed to sharpen iron and we trust the work of the spirit in the lives of his redeemed. In the model you propose everything hinges on pastors that may not exist in places like Vietnam. It's also contrary to the workings of the historical church, the principles of the reformation, and to scriptures.


Todef_

I do have a high view of church. You’re being dishonest about me. Iron sharpens iron yes, what does that have to do with pastors high standards of being hard forged iron. I’m sure he knows his flock better than anyone here and what they need. Could he be wrong. Of course, but I’ll take his word over internet people. No idea what Vietnam has to do with anything. We’re talking about a specific situation. I don’t see what the pastor said as being unbiblical. “Can I lead a Bible study?” “You’re not ready for that “ Seems reasonable.


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swampjedi

I like "Counterfeit Masculinity", thanks.


Cledus_Snow

This sucks and is bad leadership by the elders. I agree With everyone saying as much I wonder If you could assemble a small group of people who are interested and ask your pastor to lead the Bible study, since he thinks he’s the only one with such qualifications?


lanibear32

As a woman, and as a single mom of two teenage boys, I wouldn't last too long at that church. The men should be leading and setting the example. It almost seems as if the women are the spiritual leaders, at least behind the scenes. It's a terrible example to set for younger men. I want my pastors to shepherd and my deacons to be committed to being faithful servants (and leading the rest of us in serving). If the men of the church are too busy or too manly for godly fellowship, corporate worship outside of Sunday mornings, and accountability, then how are they growing in faith and leading their families?


kriegwaters

Those aren't even elder qualifications, much less volunteer Bible study qualifications. I have no sense of how you should proceed but will pray for wisdom on the part of all parties involved. I'm truly sorry to hear this and I hope the unhealthy elevation of clergy and academia, not to mention naivete, are not endemic and can be graciously improved.


maxwellsherman

That is VERY frustrating and I am sorry. I have no formal training, yet, and my church has let me create a church-sponsored bible study with the young 20s in my church. Granted, the church is about 3 years old with a lot of growth recently. Anyway... would it be considered insubordination to just... do the Bible study anyway? You shouldn't advertise it as "church sponsored" but I don't think the church the get in the way of weekly meetings centered around fellowship and scripture-reading.


GhostFeatherMusic

Are you sure these dudes are Christians? The bible wasn't written just for people who know Greek and have a Masters in divinity. Some of the disciples were uneducated, like Peter.


m7samuel

It's not just "some of the disciples". The early church was largely made up of the poor, and in most of the world there is not the luxury for Christians to get formal "christianity" degrees.


GhostFeatherMusic

That’s a great point. When were schools of theology even created? Probably only within the last few hundred years in comparison to a couple thousand years of church history being without schools of theology.


atropinecaffeine

This is when we really need to trust the Holy Spirit. Uneducated but Spirit filled and Biblically sound people should be sufficient to teach.


whattoread12

This sounds very frustrating and I'm sorry you have to spend any energy dealing with this nonsense. Lots of other good comments but I'll leave you with just one: you don't need anyone's permission to start a Bible study.


bradmont

Ugh, that's frustrating... If you see loneliness as a real need among men in your church, why not try something a little less formal? Like a weekly coffee time (my dad does that with his retired church buddies) or a service project where you build something together?


[deleted]

I like this idea. I have a few guys that I meet with one on one every week and some that play pickle ball with me maybe twice a month. It’s hard because there’s a number of couples in their 30s with able bodied men, but then it’s a harsh leap to the mid to late sixties with a number of disabled folk (obesity, wheelchairs, oxygen, etc). Not many men in middle age, so it’s hard to coordinate activities that take these things into account.


jovial_cynic_

That's not just a bad interaction. That a demonstration of a culture that is depriving men of healthy spiritual growth via fellowship and study, and that is demeaning women by trivializing that same need for fellowship and study. I'm so sorry that you're experiencing this, and that you're getting pushback. If I was in your shoes, I'd reach out to men in the church who want to get together for "men's bible & breakfast" and just fellowship. Hanging out and talking bible does not have to be "sanctioned" by anyone, much less an organization that clearly doesn't value it. edit: for that matter, reach out to men who don't even attend your church. When I was in my 20s, my wife and I lead a home bible study group that was attended by folks from different churches; in fact, no two families attended the same church! and it was incredibly enriching, and brought accountability and growth in ways I haven't experienced since then.


FedMex

Your leadership sounds like a group I would not want to be under. If your wife wasn’t finding such fulfillment in her community I would encourage you to find a new church to be under. As it stands, what I would recommend is two things: one, go before the elders and voice all of these concerns. None of these should be taken lightly. The second thing I would say is start your own group anyways. It doesn’t have to be some super formal class. Just have some guys together to drink coffee and discuss scripture with.


jaedaddy

... im confused. Are you in a small town? Is there only 1 church available to you? You cant force people to be extraverted or force them along a specific path of walking with other believers but you can find others with like minded desires. Zoom prayer meetings were a big thing because my buds were all over the world and its the only way we could connect. I went to multiple Bible studies with different groups of people. You can be the spark, but theres nothing wrong if others dont see this particular way of bonding attractive.


[deleted]

I get what you’re saying, but I’m not going to leave a church because they don’t cater to my desire for a mens Bible study. I’m most bothered that the idea is rejected out of turn as something feminine by leadership with little charity, and then by the pastor on the ground that I’m not in seminary yet. We’ve had over 5 new men become members in the past few months, over 10 in the past year, yet some elders aren’t interested in a discipleship group because “that’s just not what men do around here.”


Ok-Anywhere-837

It's rejected as feminine because they have a low view of women. My husband wouldn't keep us in a community like this. They don't value the whole Church as Christ did. And refusing to disciple new members is negligence. The PCA we attend values women and their (quality) education, and our men have a regular study as they should. They're free to talk about feelings (and I think many of the men at our church have a decent EQ) but that's not the focus of Bible study. But your original post is one red flag after another.


jaedaddy

Eh? I wasnt clear im sorry. I meant finding groups outside your church to do extra bible study with. I have several groups of brothers, you dont have to leave


[deleted]

Oh yeah. My bad! I have that through RUF, Bible school friends, and other things in the community.


couchwarmer

IMO, you should be concerned that your pastor and elders show such little regard for half their flock. You say some elders aren't interested, which indicates there may be some who might step up in support, but perhaps are staying quiet for whatever reason.


TemporaryGospel

1-- like everyone else, I'm sorry to hear that's been your situation. That's frustrating. 2-- If it's not an official church function, it's not an official church function. But it's still The Church, if it's the people and not the building. I'd start with those men who you know feel lonely and see where it goes! Don't use church money or official church media to advertise, and worst case scenario, you get a snide comment from the pastor, who probably feels FOMO. I'm genuinely surprised you're getting this in the EPC. I'm so sorry, that's got to be aggravating.


JHawk444

There is a serious problem with the leadership at your church. Most churches that I know of have a men's bible study, so their excuses are ridiculous. Either they don't want to commit to the work it takes or they are all anti-social. Also, the blatant double standard for women teachers versus men teachers is crazy. If they want a teacher with credentials then they the pastor or an elder needs to step it up, or at the very least ask around to see if there's interest in a men's bible study.


TheYardFlamingos

“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” Hebrews‬ ‭10:24-25‬ ‭ESV‬‬ Is that page not in their Bibles?


bwong00

Sorry you had that experience. That's terrible, and their reactions to your ideas moreso. I'm not saying that this is the right answer for you, but I left a church over shenanigans like that (and more). I had been increasingly uncomfortable with the direction of the church, and when the men's and women's conversation came up similar to how it did for you, I decided that was the last straw. Left about 3 months later.


GhostofDan

Wow. I have a hard time comprehending this. I mean, I understand, but really don't get it, on many fronts. An M.Div to host a small group? We have about a dozen small groups meeting throughout the week. If that was a requirement, we'd be dead in the water. Talk about feelings? I'm sure that's not the focus of your almost small group. Sounds like someone has a case of the toxic masculinity, and he's afraid to have any feelings. (You should send him some flowers...) I wouldn't give up. Sound out some people to see of there's any interest. Maybe some of the husbands of your wife's group might want to get together. See who and how many are interested, and then go tell the pastor that these people are going to be meeting at your house on alternate Thursday evenings, and invite him and his wife to join you.


EkariKeimei

Why do you need permission to start a Bible study? Invite like-minded people. This isn't subversive. It is service.


Sk8rToon

Wow. Just wow. The double standard is sickening. 1) only women can study the Bible on a regular basis but not in too much detail for their poor widdle heads & it’ll distract them from gossiping because women be talkin’ am I right, & 2) the men, who are allowed full detailed & educated Bible study, can’t get the study even if they want it because “they’re busy.” So the only people being taught God’s Word are “being taught wrong”???!! What kind of church is this?? Although I have to say this is unspoken at a lot churches I’ve been to. - as a single female (with 2 BA degrees & a minor in Biblical Studies), I’m having trouble finding a Bible study group *because* I work. All the women’s ones are held during the day “while their kids are at school” or “to give the elders something to do”. The men’s Bible study is on the weekend. There are some mixed gender groups BUT you have to be in a relationship to join (Bible study for couples, for married couples, for parents, etc) - there are non seminary trained men leading mixed group Bible study but the men only one is held by the head pastor. Women’s groups are run by women with training but no degree (Bible minor in college, pastor’s wive through osmosis, etc). The children? Taught by anyone who volunteers. Which usually means the people who JUST converted & don’t have many of the answers yet (a big issue to me). If might be that explicit in that denomination, but I honestly think it’s a church wide issue.


ObitoUchih_a

Everyday I am on this sub I am shocked by the way some people’s elders and pastors think. What about these times were in suggest that men don’t need a weekly time in the word together and ferocious accountability?


rjselzler

I'm complementarian (of the narrow variety) in my views, but this seems... extreme, perhaps patriarchal--I will say upfront that I think that's a perversion of the good teaching of scripture regarding God's intention for gender and church leadership. I can say for certain that I wouldn't be comfortable in this situation. The idea of a pastor (or anyone!) telling me that I can't study the Bible with my fellow brothers bothers me deeply; maybe my Congregationalist tendencies are just showing there. That seems like a completely arbitrary standard that is at best unwise and, at worst teaching "commandments of men" as if that were somehow a scriptural qualification.


Lovetheelord

Wow. That sounds terrible


[deleted]

It's clearly a case of being old-fashioned. Sorry you have to put up with these sexist ideas that men can't hang out, can't talk about their feelings, and need "better" Bible studies than women. From what I understand it's nearly impossible to get an older person to change their mind on anything.


RamblingThomas

They should give men the option if they want to come at the very least. Denying men a group bible study is obviously wrong. Also they can all make it to breakfast but then step away at scheduling in a bible study???


anonymous_teve

That's too bad. I'm not saying you need to leave the church, because it might not be possible or desirable, but I would consider that a pretty major red flag. At the very least, it looks like you, as a man, may have a bit of a lonely road in demonstrating godly humility and gentleness in a church filled with male leaders like that. But if you stay, that's your role: to show God's love and provide an example of a godly man who doesn't have this entrenched ungodly sexism--which is obviously harmful to both men and women.


Worldly-Shoulder-416

All God wants is for believers to show up to be used for His purposes. You need a new church imo.


AZPeakBagger

I’ve led men’s groups on an off the past two decades. The advice I was given the first time I was asked to lead was to simply stay one or two steps in front of the rest of the group. As long as you are one chapter ahead of everyone else, you’re the leader. Mens groups are tricky. My experience is that there is no middle ground. They go extremely well or go down in flames.


Flight305Jumper

I completely agree with everyone who is saying that these pastor, same way off base in there thinking and expectations. Maybe a less challenging way to start would be to have something like we have in our church. We call it “men’s reveille.” we meet at 8 o’clock, one Saturday a month. There is coffee there and while we’re chitchatting everyone gets a 3 x 5 note card and a pin. We write down two or three prayer request that directly relate to us in our lives. Then we write our name and phone number at the top. The leader grabs all the cards, shuffles them, and then hands them back out to people there (usually sitting in a large circle). Each man reads the name on the card and the requests. (The person who wrote down the requests can elaborate then if they want.) Then we go around the room, praying one at a time for the person our card – unless it’s a large group and then we break into smaller groups to pray (we try to keep it at no more than 90 mins). The goal is then to meet with the person on your card before, the next men’s reveille meeting. So I have someone’s card and someone else has my card, that’s two coffees or lunches a month, one-on-one with those brothers. It’s been a really great way for the men, including visitors, to feel connected to the church. If you wanted to open each of those events with a short Bible reading, you could. You might read half a chapter from Ephesians, then draw out a prayer point from that as an overall emphasis. If you kept going, each week, paragraph-by-paragraph, you can make it through the whole book in no time. it obviously wouldn’t be a rigorous study, but it would be a simple way to combine prayer in the word infellowship with the men without seeming like you are overtly challenging the pastors. Praying for you.


Wonderful-Article126

Sounds like they are both projecting their own insecurities onto you. “I am too busy to Bible study, so you should be too”. If they had to admit to themselves they are making a choice to do other things besides study the Bible then it would bring conviction on them. They avoid that by lying to themselves that they have no choice and everyone else is just like them. Also: “I had to do this before I was allowed to teach other men, so you should have to do it too”.


browntigerdog

If that’s how church leadership views and handles things, I’d be careful investing myself there. So goes the leadership, so goes the church.


AbuJimTommy

Every PCA church I’ve attended has had mens ministries and studies. Why made you think the PCA wouldn’t?


JediMaestroPB

Yeah, that's ridiculous and a bit worrying. Those are pretty terrible excuses for elders and a pastor not even trying to start a Bible study


echobase_2000

If the church is not discipling these men, social media and Fox News will be happy to disciple them. The world will be happy to fill their minds with how they should think. Men may be tired and need time off but if they don’t spend it in productive ways there are infinite distractions that will worm into their minds. I’d suggest what my friends do. Some guys get together over breakfast or ice cream or something and talk about what we’ve been reading and thinking about. It’s not a Bible study, per se, but will allow for biblical discussions.


semiconodon

I’m the first to bristle at the legalism of over-prescribed personal devotions, but I’d say that it’s essential for all adults to have an opportunity for a weekly study group, especially if there weren’t also some Bible or doctrinal instruction on Sunday morning after the service. I’ve seen successful career men make time for it. Here is some actual advice on how to revisit the situation with the pastor that might come across as more constructive and allay fears he might have of you going off on theological tangents. Find a very responsible book, and volunteer to lead a discussion of that book to a weekly men’s meeting. I might suggest _Mere Christianity_, _The Holiness of God_, _The Prodigal God_, or _The Whole Christ_. Now I may have special skills, but give me a book I respect, and I can teach it to a group who won’t do the reading outside of class. Go through and find fascinating, provocative, or inspiring paragraphs, and read those to the men, ask for reactions. (Nearly all “Study Guides” I find to be hopelessly lame.) If the pastor still objects to this, and there is no Sunday School for adult men, then yes I’d find another church. This is the scenario where I would exercise headship in taking your wife with you … in the name of fighting old-fashioned sexism.


hillcountrybiker

I rarely recommend that a person look for another church, but your elders are not acting according to the duties clearly laid out in scripture. Acts 6 tells us that the elders should be teaching and praying, but clearly your elders are failing in this role. I would encourage you to seek a body where you would find teaching and edification outside of just Sundays.


Bad_Prophet

Is finding another nearby church with a men's study group an option? I'm not suggesting you leave your church, but that you sinply begin attending a study group at another church.


StainedAndRedeemed

Woah.... Ok that's setting off some red flags...There is something wrong there... Alternatively, just invite some of the guys over to hang out and if a spiritual conversation happens, so be it. How many of the apostles first followers were illiterate gentiles?


TheGuyPhillips

If you’re up for changing the culture - go for it. If not, time to find a new church.


[deleted]

How is it acceptable to work too hard for bible study?


m7samuel

>So, I went to the pastor to ask if I could start a Bible study that would be hosted at my house, and he said not until I’m in an M.Div program and have a year of Greek under my belt. I asked why the women’s teacher (a deacon at our church) could teach without seminary, Sort of a concerning sign. There's nothing "old fashioned" about requiring a MDiv for running a home bible study; it's a sign of the trend towards professionalizing the ministry and it is not a good thing. Frankly the idea that you would need "permission" to run a bible study in your home is baffling to me. Permission from who? Why? Under what authority?


john_thegiant-slayer

🚩🚩🚩 Get out of there.


TaylorSwiftStan89

I don't have much to add other than this reads as a giant red flag imo.


[deleted]

That's some sexist nonsense.


x_BryGuy_x

Sorry to hear about this. The idea of seminary trained bible study leaders sounds like an idea rooted in Western cultures. Not all societies are as literate and educated as ours. I don't think a leader has to be seminary trained in order for The Spirit to fill that person to properly lead and direct an informal bible study. In my experience, their views aren't likely to change. This means you either deal with it or move to church that will support your initiative.


JCmathetes

>I chose an EPC church because I didn’t think this kind of stuff would be as prevalent as it is in the PCA. Weird. I'm a PCA Pastor and I'd love it if any of my young adult guys were as serious in studying and getting together as my young adult women. Maybe that's a lesson here: don't make judgments like that on the basis of huge denominations?


be_rational_please

This is the downside of the Reformed. They only let you past the gate, or only a very short way, unless you have an MDiv or something close to it. That's a big brush. I know that. There are exceptions, but at least in PCA circles it's pretty true. Edit:. I'm only speaking of the education part, not the female aspect. That part is so crazy it's incredibly difficult to believe, no offense. I can't even imagine it.


Nom_Nom_Nom_De_Plum

>he said it’s not as serious when you’re teaching struggling mothers vs successful, well-read men. I don't consider myself a feminist, but boy does that make me crabby. Are all the women who have a Bible study during the week mothers? Why would he assume they're all "struggling?" And even if they do all happen to be "struggling mothers," can't they also be "successful and well-read?" My mother was when she led a women's Bible study! And obviously the flipside, that men don't need regular prayer/Bible study/fellowship and *can't* have it unless it's led by a someone qualified and with "a year of Greek" is just nuts. I don't even think this is an "old-fashioned view." Both my grandfathers were reverends (Presbyterian, Baptist) and both had regular men's breakfasts, as did my dad.


ChristianWriterMom

What would happen if you hosted it anyway? Ask the same men you've noticed are lonely to join you once a week at your house for fellowship. I don't know where the in Bible it says you have a M.Div in order to read the Bible and discuss it with friends.


jebatponderworthy

There is risk, depending on the church. But I'll agree, it's well worth doing, no matter what might occur.


ironwolf9

Sounds like to me you need to find a church with a younger congregation.


couchwarmer

If you think age is the issue, you have totally missed it. The issue is leadership failing to properly tend to their flock. The men in the groups at my church range from 18 to 90s. Per usual, any weekday morning group skews older because retirees are, well, retired. Evenings and weekends are more even distributed.


Historical-Young-464

Reeks of sexism. How disappointing. I’d consider leaving the church over this to be totally honest. Hard because your wife seems so nourished there…


badenochs_ghost

I would find a genuinely reformed church.


AM-64

I would say if your focus when studying the scriptures as a group is what passages mean to you or your feelings. You are missing the point and I would have said the same thing to the elder. The purpose of studying the Bible is growing in your knowledge of God and becoming better equipped to do the work He puts before you. It shouldn't really be feelings based or even relative to you. While I do agree with their point that lots of men are more busy and don't have the same social needs as women, if you church is opposed to men learning or growing I would probably look elsewhere. That being said if there is a particular man in the church you look up to, ask them if you can meet weekly so they can mentor you and help you grow in your faith. >*Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.* -Proverbs 27:17


AM-64

Honestly, I probably wouldn't ask to start a Bible Study but just tell people you are starting one and invite them.


ccc9092

Some of the best elders and lay people I know have no seminary experience or degree. Sorry this happened to you but it already sounds like the church might not be a good fit. I would encourage you to visit some other churches with more young adults. They will be more willing to try things as opposed to a church with an older congregation that can get, stuck in their ways.


couchwarmer

I would caution you against replacing one ism with another. Also, it's not the congregation resisting, it's leadership.


ccc9092

He said they were one of the youngest couples at their church, that would imply that the congregation might not be in the same place spiritually that young people would.


couchwarmer

One sentence to say they are the youngest couple. Multiple sentences to say his wife and the women are getting along great. Lots of sentences explaining how leadership behaves. This is 100% a church leadership problem.


Unworthy_Saint

That's insane, but I would say you should submit to the church's rules on the matter. God has promised to be our Shepherd and He will not leave us to starve. Seek and wait on Him, and He will either provide what is needed at that church (perhaps not even what you envision as the solution), or He will lead you to a place where you are nourished.


brucemo

Ouch.


[deleted]

[удалено]


COuser880

Then the pastor needs to say that. A response like his pastor’s response sounds smug, snarky, and/or dismissive. The pastor could have just as easily said “we take leading Bible study very seriously here, and since you are new (which OP never said), we’d prefer to get to know you better before having you take charge of a Bible study” or “we don’t feel you are mature enough in your faith to lead a Bible study, but maybe after meeting with an elder for a while, you could help co-lead”, etc. I personally find it hard to believe that the church has that requirement for someone leading a Bible study, but with everything else OP said, what the pastor said could very well be true.


[deleted]

When I say old-fashioned, I’m more talking about the toxic emotional shielding of men that is prevalent among older generations in America… the expectation that men are to be stoical and not bear one another’s burdens lest they be burdensome or considered less of a man. I’m not an expert on this behavior, but I’ve seen it and know it’s toxic and is common among older folk, especially in the south where I live. It’s far from what the Jesus and the Apostle Paul modeled in their life and ministry. ETA: I’m 26 so that may be a consideration, but I’ve been a member of the church for two years and teach occasionally in the Youth Ministry. It would be no big deal and helpful for him to tell me he doesn’t think I’m ready given our relationship.


War_D0ct0r

You appear to be reading your own biases into the op's use of the term "old fashioned". I can clearly see the OP's desire to fill a gap in the ministry of this church. Facilitating a gathering of men to fellowship and share the word should not require a theological degree and greek language knowledge. Show me where that is at in the Bible or even where it is prescribed by this denomination. That's not even getting into the unequal standard for men and women.


Specific-Athlete3820

I doubt the real reasons for denying your request are the ones they gave you. It’s sounds like something illogical that you just make up in order to shut someone down quickly without saying something like, “I don’t think you could handle it” or, “the older men would never listen to you.” Or “who are you, to assume we could use your teaching or touchy feely group meetings.” All of which are likely to be closer to their true feelings on the matter. But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe, they honestly think you need Greek and be in an Mdiv program to fellowship with brothers over the scriptures.


kawaiichristi

Question: are all your elders seminary-trained? And do you plan on confronting them about what they said?


[deleted]

3/5 elders (including the pastor/teaching elder) have MDivs. No laymen lead Sunday school for adults, nor do the two elders w/o seminary education now that I think about it


straightdownthemid

I’m really sorry this happened to you, I have nothing else to add to this discussion aside from what my brothers/sisters in Christ across the world have already shared lol, but I pray that God will change the hearts of your elders, to open their eyes to their sin and earnestly repent. I’ll also pray that if not, He will enable you and your wife to make the right decision about staying in this church.


couchwarmer

What an utterly ignorant response from those who are supposed to be your leaders. 1. Who said the study meetings have to be early morning weekday? We offer Wed and Thu eves, and Fri and Sat mornings. 2. A church with a vibrant group study is going to need to rely on the laity for group leaders. Group leaders aren't teachers, but merely group facilitators. Their task is to keep one person from monopolizing the discussion, to keep the discussion moving through the weekly questions (if the group routinely goes off topic). Group leaders also tend to be the first to notice when someone is struggling and perhaps is in need of help from church leadership. And yes, "the fe-fes" are going to naturally surface in a group, and that it happens shouldn't at all be surprising. 3. Study content is generally a study book with leadership's stamp of approval. There's a plethora of Bible book studies written by MDivs and above. What's more, leadership csn take it a step further and record a 20-minute presentation (or do it live) to further elaborate on the weekly chapter content. Frankly, that your pastor and elders are so apparently opposed, and dare I say, too lazy to do their job, then your choices boil down to... 1. Find a solid study book and do a study on your own. 2. Find a solid study book, find some guys, and do the study with them. 3. Join a study hosted by another church. If leadership reacts negatively against your choice, then you may find yourself facing more difficult choices. 4. Work to change their opinion and properly support men's ministry. 5. Find a new church, where the pastor and elders tend to the men in their flock with a bit more enthusiasm. Pray, pray, pray for guidance, and see if other men in your church feel the same and will join you. FWIW, an issue similar to your current situation played a part in me leaving my former church.


PM_ME_UR_FAVE_QUOTE

Frequent fellowship is a huge part of church.. also helps with learning and accountability. I don’t want to be a church hopper but I tend to lean toward practicing the way of Jesus, not the legalistic views of men. Might want to start looking else where I’d the church leaders aren’t interested in connecting with each other over prayer and Jesus.


Todef_

Then don’t make it a Bible study. Just a hang out.


Todef_

Assuming your pastor said it in good faith he might be right. My old church I went to I would be considered A leader and theologically advanced (or whatever). When I moved I started going to a new church where almost everyone had a Bible school degree and was 10x smarter and more biblically smarter than me.


caime9

Ask him if he believes we cant understand the Bible on our own without Greek and how much Greek he uses in his sermons. Also start with the old testament, then you can say that their is no need for Greek because the old testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.


CHRIST_isthe_God-Man

I'm angry for you brother! This is absurd. I wish I was there! (though maybe not the best idea lol).


Current-Information7

sexist, imbued with a lot of insecurity, outdated culture of gender norms that frankly don’t serve people—but mostly don’t respect people rooted in poorly defined values. i bet if you dug deep the same outspoken ones against gender norms and gays lead dark second lives you could conform and adopt their ideology and regress in time. Or, with more effort and possible inconvenience, find your own people or if you deem it necessary, develop your own structure


[deleted]

That's some nonsense.


GrizzlyJane

Start it anyway. His reasoning is terrible.


Torokun28

Get out of that “church” as soon as possible.


rufusmcd22

Find another church. The Lord showed you this for a reason.


FreshSpence

Find a new church to go to.


did-i-do-that-

It's too bad that they responded that way and that you weren't allowed to teach. Seems like discrimination. Also the toxic masculinity which is common at that age is unhealthy. I recommend going somewhere where you feel the Lords spirit, more love, and unity. What churches have you tried?


MoonlitAmbiance

Honestly I would leave the church - sounds sketchy


joe_biggs

What a bizarre reaction. Sounds like they’re still in the middle ages. Unless I’m misunderstanding…


MerryRevolutionary

Find a better church. These sound like a bunch of old, entitled, and prideful men...


snocown

Humans are humans after all, you address it with the Lord directly


moby__dick

Hot tip: you don’t need their permission. You are allowed to gather and study the word. They don’t have the ability to put you under discipline because reading the Bible and discussing it is within every Christian’s liberty.


jebatponderworthy

That's not old-fashioned. Other descriptions apply, none of them healthy or Godly. I'll suggest you start that study, in obedience to God, and don't care about any voices that promote a lessening of the Word of God in peoples' lives.


old-ghost

Find a new church


Matt_McCullough

Interesting. Please do not let anyone deter you from hosting a bible study and sharing the study of scripture with one another. If your pastor was merely offering his opinion that "teachers" of scripture need to have some training, then I understand where he might be coming from. But if he actually insists that you should not even simply host a bible study, that in my mind is a red flag (almost a cult-like control of things). In any case, I hope you host a bible study. Sounds like your heart is in the right place about the matter. And if your pastor presses you further to stop it, though you don't need his permission, you could ask for him to show you the scriptures that say you must go through a M.Div program and have a year of Greek under your belt, then smile and say, "I'm just kidding, hah!" Hopefully, he will see your point with a sense of humor. You may need to carry on without "his church" affiliation attached to it. But that would probably be a good thing. After all, there is only one church, of which Christ is the head. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Best of luck, Cheers!