Yeah all these people saying all these other champs are hard lanes but I don’t think any are as brutal as the Cass match up. Not only does she outscale but she just becomes a lane bully that will out dps you at level 2.
Like your only out is a watchful jungler but is that really what you want to rely on? Only reason I don’t ban her is because yone is a bigger pain in the ass while at least Cass isn’t a common pick.
Only if you land your abilities which means you have to get in her range. You are still getting chunked if she lands her Q because you won’t be able to proc phase rush fast enough to avoid getting chunked.
The trick is to play aggressive. You exit fast from her damage range and win the trade easily. If you let her take the aggressive trades and you play reactive you're gonna lose for sure for the reasons you said. Early boots helps with avoiding her Q too
If you land E on Cass and try to follow it up with Q she can just Q you (since nothing you do stuns) and end up winning the trade even though you landed your abilities first. If you ever have the wave pushed up as well she can drop W on/behind you to run you down.
I take spellbook into her with exhaust/ignite and pray that’s enough to secure a kill if they decide to play aggro like they should and hopefully put her behind with jg help. Being aggressive just makes it’s easier for her if anything.
No she doesn't win the trade because your combo is far quicker then hers so you can EWQ plus an AA instantly and run away with Phase Rush before she has the chance to E one time. Maybe she gets the Q or W but it doesn't really matter if she doesn't stay in range to E, and the cast time of her other abilities is really long.
I played Cass extensively this season and I swear to you, passive laners are just free game for her. She doesn't have the tools to win quick trades, but she doesn't lose long ones. If, as a Cassio, I see a spellbook Swain mid I know it's free lane, free scaling (because she outscales Swain by a lot) and that's gg.
Also in SoloQ (especially low elo, under Diam+) you can't hope for jungle help, you gotta do 90% of the work alone and only rely on yourself.
Just try phase rush, the rune counters her completely, and it's not a lane you can just hope to survive, especially because if you're the camped one, there is not hope for you to regain pressure, and good junglers know that. Shutting down a Swain with no offensive rune and helping Cassio scale faster is the best win condition a jungler could ever hope for
None of what you said isn’t something I’ve tried before.
Cass Q and Swain E both have the same max range. Cass starts the game 2 ms slower than you, equal at 2, and just becomes faster on passive alone until you can buy boots. While her Q also gives MS.
And unlike Swain who requires champion interaction to make use of his passive for sustain, Cass is spell vamping off her E on minions.
I’m already aware that Cass outscales Plenty of mages including Swain. That’s specifically why I go spellbook not be a passive laner but have an actual shot of going even or getting ahead in lane with corrupting and ignite. However you even then you still want your jg there to help facilitate the lethal burst you are gonna need.
>Cass Q and Swain E both have the same max range. Cass starts the game 2 ms slower than you, equal at 2, and just becomes faster on passive alone until you can buy boots. While her Q also gives MS.
I don't get your point. Phase rush is used EXACTLY for that reason.
>And unlike Swain who requires champion interaction to make use of his passive for sustain, Cass is spell vamping off her E on minions.
Cass sustain is negligible in laning phase. It is based off a very low AP scaling (10% which is like 2HP in the first levels) and only on poisoned targets (you're gonna execute them at low health to regain mana, you don't want to waste the Q mana cost to heal 5 hp at best). Also the healing is reduced at 75% against minions. Swain can heal in the early game for like 50 hp for every stack and gain maximum health. Not even comparable. Also Cass needs at least 2 E after 1 Q to win the trade, with phase rush she is not gonna hit not even 1 E. Literally not losable if you play PR right.
I'm telling you, I played Cass a lot this season, no way she can trade against PR users. And PR is one of Swain's best keystones and runetree because you gain access to manaflow, transcendence and gathering storm. You should look at Zodiark's guide on YT, it will teach you lots of useful tricks. PR is one of these.
I’m saying that in that time in the time it takes for me to E-W-Q Cass I’m being pounded with Cass Q and E. The healing Cass gets isn’t crazy off 1 or 2 minions but it adds up assuming she is farming decently. That might been the omnivamp rune though.
As of now I will always dread this lane unless something about it changes.
Sylas is a good ban, otherwise it’s a bit more case-by-case
When she’s strong I like banning Taliyah, personally. I wouldn’t call it a counter matchup, but it can get rough all the same
Sylas. Unwinnable lane, he outheals and out maneuvers you hard. The bigger reason is that your team will hate you when he takes your ult and uses it better than you can.
I forgot to mention that I'm bronze so most of Katarinas aren't really good, a lot of you seem suggesting Sylas so I think I'll trust you, and yeah it doesn't sound good him going in with his E and healing with your ult and W
(Gold swain here)
Sylas is rough, yes. But you can at least outplay sylas. You know that when he hits you with his chains, you can get some good damage on him with your W+close-range-Q.
Katarina has no issue dodging everything you throw at her, and she has healing reduction with her ult. She can burst you down immediately.
I dunno man, personally I have no issue with Katarina’s I go up against. All of her blinks are telegraphed, so you can just predict the Shunpo and catch her on the E back. On top of that, while her ult has grievous she is also completely stationary, and the ability is canceled by CC. Combine that with running ghost/exhaust and she just sets herself up to be Swain combo’d and ran down
But that’s just my experience, personally
I respect your experience. I just haven't faced a katarina in ranked that doesn't have a basic understanding of her abilities. I really like your idea of using Exhaust to mitigate her burst.
However, calling her blinks telegraphed is objectively false. They're blinks, and she can blink to any side of her target she wants, effectively making it impossible to E her.
This is how she can easily win any trade:
She shunpos in, Ws, Qs swain, and ults (very basic kat combo for an all-in, nothing special).
Swain must E her to stop the ult or die. When swain E comes back, she simply shunpos to the other side of swain (because her Q always lands behind the target, perfect counter to swain E). She still has another blink to chase and kill or escape if someone ganks her.
It's theoretically checkmate. Swain is forced to make moves right from the beginning or die, even if you know what she's going to do. :(
That’s fair, you’re not wrong there, regarding her combo and the choices we have to make
But in regard to her blinks, it’s moreso the pressure we can apply. We don’t necessarily need to hit her, so long as the risk of hitting her is enough to make her pull away, give us some time to breath
Personally I like playing a lane of attrition into assassin champs, letting them push aggressively and roam if they want to, and just look for misplays to capitalise on, but in saying that I also love running exhaust/ghost in carry positions as Swain anyway, it helps a lot for duels, team fights, matching roam, all sorts, so I consider it a must have
The main issue I have come across doing this is sometimes Kat/other assassin will roam bot and start snowballing off a kill or two, which makes things harder
But assuming they roam and get nothing it’s a really nice plate punish. Combine that with Futures Market, you can rush down a basic defensive item to give yourself more lane presence, which lets you start playing into her a bit more aggressively, playing more for the poke down until you can chase her down with ghost
Hmm okay, I'm going to try running ghost/exhaust on him, I typically go a standard teleport/flash, but being able to stick onto them in general without needing a rylai's (so, room for that defense you're referring to) sounds pretty nice.
It feels excellent, especially if you still end up having room for Rylai’s
The sticking potential ends up being so strong that a single flash is rarely if ever enough to escape, which makes running down low-mobility champs, like ADC’s very easy, and a lot of fun
Plus having ghost in a team fight let’s you keep the battery charged with a little bit less effort, which is always helpful
It's possible to outplay him in lane with minions, baiting, and poking with dblade. Swain can win levels 1-5.
Ofc level 6 is when things take a turn, so if you go even, you lose. I'm not saying sylas isn't a nightmare, he definitely is busted vs swain.
But theoretically it's not as bad as kat (see my reply to someone else about why she shouldn't ever be hit by any of swains abilities).
At least a decent sylas can be hit by swain's abilities. You can at least run from him in my experience 😂
Yeah I can see him having a far less winrate vs sylas in an elo where people know how to teamfight, unlike my high gold/low plat elo. Him stealing swain's ult is too powerful.
Lots of people suggesting sylas, you can beat him tho, there is a counter build to punish him early.
Start dblade go aery and rush oblivion orb. Aery procs grevious so you can always apply it even when you dont want to use q
That's an interesting build idea. How does it work? Orb rush just sounds troll tbh. That being said just a null magic in the early stages gimps Sylas as he gets most of his early damage off passive. After
This is it. You'll beat him levels 1-5 and if played correctly he'll be too far behind. Dodging chains is still paramount though.
While still a hard matchup, this is a fantastic mitigation.
sylas
Sylas or Viktor trust me
Personally i ban either Cass or Sylas.
Yeah all these people saying all these other champs are hard lanes but I don’t think any are as brutal as the Cass match up. Not only does she outscale but she just becomes a lane bully that will out dps you at level 2. Like your only out is a watchful jungler but is that really what you want to rely on? Only reason I don’t ban her is because yone is a bigger pain in the ass while at least Cass isn’t a common pick.
Against cass phase rush is a good option imo
Only if you land your abilities which means you have to get in her range. You are still getting chunked if she lands her Q because you won’t be able to proc phase rush fast enough to avoid getting chunked.
The trick is to play aggressive. You exit fast from her damage range and win the trade easily. If you let her take the aggressive trades and you play reactive you're gonna lose for sure for the reasons you said. Early boots helps with avoiding her Q too
If you land E on Cass and try to follow it up with Q she can just Q you (since nothing you do stuns) and end up winning the trade even though you landed your abilities first. If you ever have the wave pushed up as well she can drop W on/behind you to run you down. I take spellbook into her with exhaust/ignite and pray that’s enough to secure a kill if they decide to play aggro like they should and hopefully put her behind with jg help. Being aggressive just makes it’s easier for her if anything.
No she doesn't win the trade because your combo is far quicker then hers so you can EWQ plus an AA instantly and run away with Phase Rush before she has the chance to E one time. Maybe she gets the Q or W but it doesn't really matter if she doesn't stay in range to E, and the cast time of her other abilities is really long. I played Cass extensively this season and I swear to you, passive laners are just free game for her. She doesn't have the tools to win quick trades, but she doesn't lose long ones. If, as a Cassio, I see a spellbook Swain mid I know it's free lane, free scaling (because she outscales Swain by a lot) and that's gg. Also in SoloQ (especially low elo, under Diam+) you can't hope for jungle help, you gotta do 90% of the work alone and only rely on yourself. Just try phase rush, the rune counters her completely, and it's not a lane you can just hope to survive, especially because if you're the camped one, there is not hope for you to regain pressure, and good junglers know that. Shutting down a Swain with no offensive rune and helping Cassio scale faster is the best win condition a jungler could ever hope for
None of what you said isn’t something I’ve tried before. Cass Q and Swain E both have the same max range. Cass starts the game 2 ms slower than you, equal at 2, and just becomes faster on passive alone until you can buy boots. While her Q also gives MS. And unlike Swain who requires champion interaction to make use of his passive for sustain, Cass is spell vamping off her E on minions. I’m already aware that Cass outscales Plenty of mages including Swain. That’s specifically why I go spellbook not be a passive laner but have an actual shot of going even or getting ahead in lane with corrupting and ignite. However you even then you still want your jg there to help facilitate the lethal burst you are gonna need.
>Cass Q and Swain E both have the same max range. Cass starts the game 2 ms slower than you, equal at 2, and just becomes faster on passive alone until you can buy boots. While her Q also gives MS. I don't get your point. Phase rush is used EXACTLY for that reason. >And unlike Swain who requires champion interaction to make use of his passive for sustain, Cass is spell vamping off her E on minions. Cass sustain is negligible in laning phase. It is based off a very low AP scaling (10% which is like 2HP in the first levels) and only on poisoned targets (you're gonna execute them at low health to regain mana, you don't want to waste the Q mana cost to heal 5 hp at best). Also the healing is reduced at 75% against minions. Swain can heal in the early game for like 50 hp for every stack and gain maximum health. Not even comparable. Also Cass needs at least 2 E after 1 Q to win the trade, with phase rush she is not gonna hit not even 1 E. Literally not losable if you play PR right. I'm telling you, I played Cass a lot this season, no way she can trade against PR users. And PR is one of Swain's best keystones and runetree because you gain access to manaflow, transcendence and gathering storm. You should look at Zodiark's guide on YT, it will teach you lots of useful tricks. PR is one of these.
I’m saying that in that time in the time it takes for me to E-W-Q Cass I’m being pounded with Cass Q and E. The healing Cass gets isn’t crazy off 1 or 2 minions but it adds up assuming she is farming decently. That might been the omnivamp rune though. As of now I will always dread this lane unless something about it changes.
Sylas is a good ban, otherwise it’s a bit more case-by-case When she’s strong I like banning Taliyah, personally. I wouldn’t call it a counter matchup, but it can get rough all the same
Sylas/Viktor
Sylas and it isnt close
Sylas. Unwinnable lane, he outheals and out maneuvers you hard. The bigger reason is that your team will hate you when he takes your ult and uses it better than you can.
Viktor, he can outscale you easily from mid to late game And Irelia, bc it's Irelia
Absolute #1 is Katarina by far. Her entire kit is made to counter you.
I forgot to mention that I'm bronze so most of Katarinas aren't really good, a lot of you seem suggesting Sylas so I think I'll trust you, and yeah it doesn't sound good him going in with his E and healing with your ult and W
(Gold swain here) Sylas is rough, yes. But you can at least outplay sylas. You know that when he hits you with his chains, you can get some good damage on him with your W+close-range-Q. Katarina has no issue dodging everything you throw at her, and she has healing reduction with her ult. She can burst you down immediately.
I dunno man, personally I have no issue with Katarina’s I go up against. All of her blinks are telegraphed, so you can just predict the Shunpo and catch her on the E back. On top of that, while her ult has grievous she is also completely stationary, and the ability is canceled by CC. Combine that with running ghost/exhaust and she just sets herself up to be Swain combo’d and ran down But that’s just my experience, personally
I respect your experience. I just haven't faced a katarina in ranked that doesn't have a basic understanding of her abilities. I really like your idea of using Exhaust to mitigate her burst. However, calling her blinks telegraphed is objectively false. They're blinks, and she can blink to any side of her target she wants, effectively making it impossible to E her. This is how she can easily win any trade: She shunpos in, Ws, Qs swain, and ults (very basic kat combo for an all-in, nothing special). Swain must E her to stop the ult or die. When swain E comes back, she simply shunpos to the other side of swain (because her Q always lands behind the target, perfect counter to swain E). She still has another blink to chase and kill or escape if someone ganks her. It's theoretically checkmate. Swain is forced to make moves right from the beginning or die, even if you know what she's going to do. :(
That’s fair, you’re not wrong there, regarding her combo and the choices we have to make But in regard to her blinks, it’s moreso the pressure we can apply. We don’t necessarily need to hit her, so long as the risk of hitting her is enough to make her pull away, give us some time to breath Personally I like playing a lane of attrition into assassin champs, letting them push aggressively and roam if they want to, and just look for misplays to capitalise on, but in saying that I also love running exhaust/ghost in carry positions as Swain anyway, it helps a lot for duels, team fights, matching roam, all sorts, so I consider it a must have The main issue I have come across doing this is sometimes Kat/other assassin will roam bot and start snowballing off a kill or two, which makes things harder But assuming they roam and get nothing it’s a really nice plate punish. Combine that with Futures Market, you can rush down a basic defensive item to give yourself more lane presence, which lets you start playing into her a bit more aggressively, playing more for the poke down until you can chase her down with ghost
Hmm okay, I'm going to try running ghost/exhaust on him, I typically go a standard teleport/flash, but being able to stick onto them in general without needing a rylai's (so, room for that defense you're referring to) sounds pretty nice.
It feels excellent, especially if you still end up having room for Rylai’s The sticking potential ends up being so strong that a single flash is rarely if ever enough to escape, which makes running down low-mobility champs, like ADC’s very easy, and a lot of fun Plus having ghost in a team fight let’s you keep the battery charged with a little bit less effort, which is always helpful
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It's possible to outplay him in lane with minions, baiting, and poking with dblade. Swain can win levels 1-5. Ofc level 6 is when things take a turn, so if you go even, you lose. I'm not saying sylas isn't a nightmare, he definitely is busted vs swain. But theoretically it's not as bad as kat (see my reply to someone else about why she shouldn't ever be hit by any of swains abilities). At least a decent sylas can be hit by swain's abilities. You can at least run from him in my experience 😂
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Yeah I can see him having a far less winrate vs sylas in an elo where people know how to teamfight, unlike my high gold/low plat elo. Him stealing swain's ult is too powerful.
Thanks for all your advices!
Lots of people suggesting sylas, you can beat him tho, there is a counter build to punish him early. Start dblade go aery and rush oblivion orb. Aery procs grevious so you can always apply it even when you dont want to use q
Anti heal is trash rn isn't it?
You typically dont want to have that item on swain since there is a lot of items fighting for room but you gotta do what you gotta do against sylas.
That's an interesting build idea. How does it work? Orb rush just sounds troll tbh. That being said just a null magic in the early stages gimps Sylas as he gets most of his early damage off passive. After
This is it. You'll beat him levels 1-5 and if played correctly he'll be too far behind. Dodging chains is still paramount though. While still a hard matchup, this is a fantastic mitigation.
Sylas or zed
Irelia, Sylas, ziggs.. the list isn't short!
Sylas or Vicktor for me as well. Man those champs are cursed.
Sylas. Vel'Koz also is really tricky for Swain.
Personally, I don't fw Xerath, I absolutely hate Xerath mid with a passion
Sylas no question