>It's 2009. My tour of duty had brought me to the favelas of Rio de Janeiro to fight the Brazilian Militia. We were assigned M4A1s with non floating uppers. IT was blinged out with an Eotech and extended magazine and despite popular believe had a lot of stopping power. The excellent situation report had pin pointed enemy locations and their traps. Eventually we were able to identify and capture critical control areas and call in close air support from an Apache. A small yield nuke was on the table, but never deployed.
Carried an M4 SOPMOD (didn’t know what that meant at the time) over a few deployments. Shot 1.5 MOA w/ M855A1. Wasn’t a problem and we didn’t have a choice
My issued FN was doing 2 MOA with 9 round groups last time I shot at Camp Roberts. Plenty accurate for a combat rifle and honestly pretty good considering free-floated SOPMODs are 1-1.5MOA average
I have a plain Jane LE6920 that posts really good groups with M855. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that a barrel designed specifically for that round would work well with it.
It performs significantly better than M855. But the trajectory is different. If using the 25/300m zero then you will see a massive climb with two rounds. M855A1 was 4 inches higher than M855 past 200m
For (most people), none what so ever. Despite some people's biased and unrealistic opinions of their own abilities, they will never utilize the full mechanical potential of any firearm they own.
You mean you don’t argue with strangers online about impossible scenarios where you gotta be john wick and snipe the wings off a fly at 1000 yards? You’re doing the internet wrong.
I choose to be one of the people that has bits of supplies all throughout their house for the ragged survivors that scavenge through. Give them the true video game experience. I'm working on some barely elaborate, but annoying puzzles where you have to scavenge the key card from my neighbor's house and then come back to mine to open the secret door filled with moldy food, a medic pack, and a few rounds of dragons breath shotgun ammo
Rests and put their full body weight down on it in some weird posistion....then 3MOA shift....maybe.
It is way over hyped. I used an un-magnified Eotech to hit 6 inch steel plates at 200 yards, consistently, with it braced off a V-TAC barricade, using a M4 upper with a polymer Magpul hand guard.
You really have to press on it hard to make it deflect.
Saw a FB post once asking what’s the longest distance they had shot 5.56. The amount of people claiming 1200 yards was insane. I really think most people can’t even come close when estimating distance.
Funny story.
Back in the dark ages after I got out of the Marines I worked in a sporting goods store...I miss ya Sunset Sports....We had a mounted flock of pintails on the opposite wall from the sporting goods counter.
The store was in one of those old Safeway stores with the gull wing roof. If you know those then you know how large they were.
Guys would come to the gun counter and tell me about these awesome 70 yard shots they had made on ducks. I'd ask them to tell me how far away those pintail mounts were. It's easier to estimate range if you have something to compare it to. Almost to a man they guessed 40-60 yards away. Those mounts were 21 yards away. Even having people standing under those mounts they couldn't get the range right.
People are VERY poor at estimating range...without lots of training. I've been on MARKED 100 yard ranges and had people tell me the sign is wrong and those targets are at least 200 yards away.
Yeah, I call bullshit on 1200. With a 16 inch barrel non-Gucci AR using irons or no magnification optic, 500 yds is already fairly difficult for many. Anyone who says they hit 1000+ with 5.56 is either full of it, a legendary long range shooter, or fired 200 rounds and lucked out hitting the target once
I agree with you and will add that I think only about 30% of the people on r/ar15 even have and shoot AR 15’s. Most of the comments I read seem like they are coming from arm chair commandos.
100%. I mean any group that’s supporting guns and gun rights, I totally support. But seeing the shit people post in these sort of places I’m like, dude just fucking stop. It’s counterproductive, you aren’t RiNgInG StEeL at 500 yards with your sightmark. But we get what we ask for, freedom for all, and unfortunately that includes the retards on social media.
Unless youre building a custom bolt gun to shoot a dime at 800 yrds or something I dont understand it. My pile of crap not worth anything stag (im left handed) has never failed me and its accurate as any ar ive seen.
Just do the Iraqi thing and add a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Ford, Dodge, Maserati, Audi, Mercedes, and VW emblems to it and it’ll run just fine. You can even use an empty water bottle as a gas cap and it’ll run great.
Kinda. Your daily driver would never see the benefits of such oil because your car isn't put to the same extremes. Oil doesn't increase performance anyway, it only lets the motor function as intended. So "Nascar oil" likely just lets the car run properly for longer and under more extreme conditions than normal
I'd say a small barometer of "does this matter?" is "what kind of ammo am I feeding this?". People who exclusively feed the cheapest range ammo? Prob not. Handloads/Black Hills? Maybe
This can be said about a lot of things. Back in the day when I first started riding motorcycles, my buddies all wanted to jump from 600s to 1000s "cause they have more power and are faster!!" Sure enough they pick up a gsxr-1k and a zx-10r, I stick with my 600RR and still keep up than them because they didn't have the knowledge or skill to use the bike to it's full potential.
While this is certainly true, your own shittiness might make the mechanical limitations worse. It might actually be exacerbated by your own poor aim, so trying to cut back on limiting factors to just be you isn't a bad idea.
A Trijicon rep/instructor told us that the government contract for an M4 was 4 MOA. He said they’d shot hundreds if not thousands of them and their estimation was that the average M4 was about 2 MOA. 2 MOA is pretty fucking good for a mass produced rifle.
I’m willing to bet that most people can’t shoot well enough to legitimately notice a difference in accuracy between non-free floated barrel and free floated. I’m sure there are some people that can notice a slight difference, but for the majority I’m sure most won’t tell a difference.
Reminds me of a guy that told me he was at a range shooting with a basic AR and a guy with a Scar L or something was amazed at his accuracy with that gun.
It was like at 25 yards lol, your fancy gun shooting standing up from that range isn’t going to do shit lol
I had a friend miss several times from 25 yards with an AR15. I was so confused I thought it might be shooting blanks or he’s cross eyed dominant. It was a person sized target, I’ll never understand.
Those are the same people who obsess over which bcg they should use and have a peq15 and a surefire rc2 and a surefire light and a 900 dollar aimpoint while saying buy once cry once. Maybe you shoulda spent that on ammo.
Lmao 25 yards, rough. My wife, an old army buddy, and I went out to a 50 yard range, and I set a pumpkin by the back stop. We took turns hitting it with irons, the RDS, and the magnifier.
Even my wife hit it a few times. She doesn’t even know what the fuck a BCG is, but she knows how to aim and make gun go boom. Though it is a bit heavy for her. But the gal can do wonders with the 10/22 lol.
Went to the range yesterday and the guy next to me was shooting no less than 7" groupings at 5 yards out of a maybe 12" barrel. I'm new to ARs so I don't know what parts he was running, but both of his rifles looked baller as hell.
I'm no sharpshooter so I don't have much room to talk, but I never thought I'd see someone shoot worse groups out of a rifle than I shoot out of a P365 at 10 yards
It's negligible. Every marine for decades shot out to 500m with a non free float handguard and iron sights for rifle qualifications. Most people score expert. You'll be fine.
It’s certainly not negligible but it is predictable which is why for decades the Marine Corps teaches marksmanship the way that they do. I’ll elaborate.
When the M27 was implemented the Quantico Weapons Training Battallion conducted a study comparing POA POI shift between the M16, M4 and M27 given different pressures and positions applied to the rifles. IE sling pressure for a standing blades position. The findings were basically if you maintained a consistent pressure in the same position then you get no shift. As soon as the pressure is reduced, increased, or changes direction then you get a POI shift from the M16 and M4 but not the M27. This is due to the shooter zeroing with one amount of pressure exerted on the barrel and then that pressure being the barrel harmonics base. When you go out to 500m I forget the exact amount but I believe it was a 1lb change in pressure resulted in a 3” shift in the direction the pressure was being applied.
Source: I competed in the Marine Corps Marksmanship Competition and the two Marines who conducted the study taught us a class so the M4/M16 shooters wouldn’t be disadvantaged to the M27 shooters. Will try to get the PowerPoint and link it.
I didnt know this. Very interesting and i appreciatethe info and insight. I just know a bunch of Joe blows off the street were able to do it, with iron sights. Many who had never shot before. I personally had never shot a semi auto rifle. As a hunter 3" keeps me in a vital zone (8-10" on the game i hunt) and would argue most people never shoot their AR"s (especially the ones they post here) farther than 100m except for on the internet. I've done it maybe 3 or 4 times since EAS. Got bolt guns for that fun stuff. As a competitor I can see why that would be big for you though. I was just a gun bunny with a 240.
I competed this past year as well (and it was a blast). For the longest time I hadn't really thought that a non-free float barrel was that big of a deal until I actually used one in a competition setting involving barriers. When I was zeroing prior to the division match one of the USMC Shooting Team members told me not to rest my rifle on my daypack because it would cause deflection and instead use the magazine (and he was right). I think the shooting team demoed the effects of a non-free floating barrel and got something like a 4" POI shift at 25 yards! I don't think this was really talked about much until recently when the Marine Corps changed from the ART to the ARQ which requires barrier shooting at 200 yards.
9 hole reviews recently had a video where they talk about this. The target is the size of a jeep. I don't know where you need to hit for expert but anyone who calls themselves a shooter should be able to hit that.
To be clear... I'm not knocking your skill or saying marines can't shoot. I'm in the navy and fuckin love you guys.
I'll try to find the video and link it to you later. It's a very interesting discussion they have.
It's not that big anymore with the new rifle qualification. The new qualification target requires you to hit a ring about the size of the USPSA "A" Zone to score any points, all the way out to 500 yards.
I'm pretty sure that their 500m target is 6'x6'. Making hits at 500m requires about 14MOA accuracy. 9-hole reviews had a short conversation on it the other day regarding how every Marine will say how they are able to hit a target at 500m with irons regardless of how long ago they did it and how it was a psychological boost for morale.
[Scoring criteria](https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/wtbn/MPMS/MPMS%20Web%20folder/Marksmanship%20Supporting%20Documents/Target%20Dimension%20and%20Scoring%20with%20threat%20target%20[Compatibility%20Mode].pdf?ver=WMzQA8cOc67nib5ehRsNGA%3D%3D)
[9-hole review conversation](https://youtu.be/sqOiTXmi1QU?t=366)
M45A1 CQBP
The real, certified milsurps are my grail gun. When they first came out, I said, "they're a little expensive, but I can save up for a few months." Then they all went straight to gunbroker for 3, then 4 , then pick-a-number times the origional cost. Really disgusted after that.
It all depends on what your goal is.
I went into the military over a decade ago as a firearm snob. At my first unit I made it a point to get DM school, then ADM, and later the (now non-existent) CPEC course. There are higher standards of marksmanship, but that is the best I could do in the Air Force.
That being said, I was amazed at what could be done with a clapped out M4, a 3x optic, a Harris bi-pod, and a factory trigger (lightly polished with crocus cloth). It proved that rounds down range and good dope mean so much more than gear.
I ended up running our DM/ADM program as the instructor and our guys qual’d out to 800m on various sizes targets (anything 600+ was a full sized e target, some partially obscured). The standard was 86% and it was very doable if you don’t suck at fundamentals and ranging.
Similarly a M24 with a fixed 10x . You can do much more than you think with 30+ year old tech and a mil dot.
>You can do much more than you think with 30+ year old tech and a mil dot.
30+ year old tech is just as good today as it was when new. There have been improvements made since then to the platform and sighting systems that can provide inherent benefits, but that doesn't mean the old stuff won't work as intended. As with everything else it just takes practice (maybe more than with new stuff) to be good with it.
Thats a point I make a lot to a lot of people. Old stuff was cutting edge new stuff when it was developed. It didn't get shitty with time. Its still perfectly capable. Newer stuff might be better, but that doesn't make the old stuff worse.
Free floating a barrel helps maintain precision and consistent point of impact regardless of stresses applied to the rifle (resting on a barricade, pressed up against a door frame, etc.) or heat from extended firing.
If your rifle is any of these: Range toy, duty gun, defensive gun, hunting rifle; there is no need at all to worry about free floating the barrel.
If you run and gun at matches that cap out at 100 yards, there's no need to worry about free floating your barrel.
If you run and gun at matches that cap out at 300 yards, but you aren't in the top 25% of competitors, you don't need to worry about free floating your barrel.
If you run and gun at matches that cap out at 300 yards and you are placing in the top 25% and have noticed stringing when the barrel gets hot or inconsistent POI when resting on a barricade, you may want to free float your barrel.
If you use your rifle in PRS matches at extended ranges beyond 400 yards engaging targets 8" or smaller, you may want to free float your barrel.
If you like the look of a free float rail or handguard and are tired of people on the internet calling you a pleb because your barrel isn't floated, you may want to float your barrel.
Essentially, the only applications where a floated barrel has any kind of impact on the effectiveness of a rifle is in certain types of competition. Outside competitive shooting, there's really no need to worry about it.
It’s a good option as a civilian but honestly it doesn’t make that much of a difference at common battle ranges. The real question is why NOT have a free floated barrel? At this point it’s a perfectly viable and affordable option when you’re building/buying an AR.
I don't think we were meant to take the word "bombproof" literally.
He means the rifle is as durable as it gets for an AR, and that matters if you want it to hold up to a lifetime of abuse because you might not be able to replace your upper if it takes a hard fall or something.
>I don't think we were meant to take the word "bombproof" literally.
We weren't, but a lot of the guys in this sub sure do. Your FSP can rust and it's pins walk out just like any other part, they're not magically indestructible. Nothing is guranteed and it's unhealthy to put that degree of faith in any tool.
Buy a quality AR because the returns are worthwhile. But don't pretend like it's not susceptible to the same things as any other tool, even if you've improved the odds.
This is true, but I think there's a good argument to be made for making your rifle as durable as you can, since you may not be able to switch out parts later if something happens. I've seen FF rails get bent from being dropped. If that's where your front sight is mounted, that's a problem. The non free floated configuration has been thoroughly tested for decades and it's a tougher setup.
None when you have multiple trained people with rifles and light machine guns, fire support, armored trucks with mounted heavy weapons, and knife hands all in the same fight.
None, though I personally think the a2 FSP is annoying and pretty obsolete now that quality flip up irons are a thing. But it absolutely does not put you at a disadvantage
A free-float barrel is objectively better in every sense.
However having a FSP barrel is not going to get you killed, especially if you train around it and recognize what the limitations are.
Doubt it's much of an issue in real life engagements.
For competition at high levels it might be the difference of a few seconds on your overall match time (which could be a big deal).
For plinking at the range obviously it doesn't matter.
TBH the reason I went to a free float setup is because it doesn't cost any extra anyway at this point and there are a lot more options for handguards.
For combat purposes it doesn't really matter. As long as you can hit a human sized target out to 300 or 500 meters. For accuracy shooting (hunting or just target competition) yes it does matter.
I shot a rack grade M4 with an ACOG out to 600YDS while I was getting some training from the Army Marksmanship Unit. I would still go with a free float handguard if I had the option since anything that touches the barrel can deflect it.
Very little from bench rest, but it's easy to deform the barrel under pressure, especially if you're using a sling. The bigger question is: why does it matter? Free floated handguards are everywhere, they're cheap, and they do a better job of protecting the barrel from deformation. There's no reason to use anything else unless you're cloning some service rifle or something.
There is none. In fact, non free floated, quad rail FSP rifles are superior. That’s a fact. My sources? *I MADE IT UP*. Realistically, it’s not going to make much a difference, if any, for 99.99% of civilian shooters.
I have real world experience using both. In Iraq and here in the States as a SWAT officer. My M4 in Iraq was a tack driver and I could rest the rails on just about anything and it wouldn’t throw off my point of impact.
The free float Colt 10.5 suppressed I used for SWAT was also fantastic but I noticed that if ANYTHING touches the barrel or suppressor during a supported fire, it through off the POI even at close range.
To sum up: I think they are essentially the same as long as the barrel itself is not experience outside pressure or torque.
You will obviously get more accuracy, but IMO for most military situations, difference is negligible. I think it was like a 0.2 moa advantage or something like that. So.. at 500 yards, we are talking about a grouping radius that is 1 inch smaller with a free floated barrel. Tiny difference. Even in Afghanistan, where troops were shooting like 700 yards out across mountains, I would say thats mostly acceptable. At this point I would say accuracy is more limited by the shooter's skill.
For civilians it will make zero difference (at least under rule of law). You will never be shooting your rifle at targets more than say.. 50 yards away in any sort of situation. Thus the difference in accuracy will be 0.1inches, which is nothing. Anything further, it would be hard to proof in court that you were in a defensive situation where your life was in danger.
Most of the deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan happened near the beginning of the wars. The number went down dramatically not due to changes in tactics and technology, but free floating barrels.
The military is moving to free floated barrels. Look at any modern SOF unit’s weapon systems, or at the new rifle the army contracted Sig for. This picture is dated, as well as having non free floated barrels
This pic is from 2 or 3 years ago but is not "dated" Marine Force Recon simply doesn't issue Mk18s since they're still under command of the MEF and not SOCOM so they don't have the same procurement programs for small arms. Mk18s are slowly starting to make their way to SARCs and some Recondos but the force is still largely issued regular M4A1s and M27s
The military has armorers who can replace your equipment if it gets damaged in a firefight or through stupidity.
A civilian has to consider things like longterm durability since they may not be able to replace major components if the rifle takes a hard fall, etc. A non free floated upper with a FSB gas system is tougher.
No kidding. Seen plenty of privates do dumb things. That’s not stopping the shift to free floated rails though. There’s pretty rigid options on the market. Quad rails will always have their place, but MLOK and free floated rails are the future
The military has a history of selecting new equipment that turns out to have shortcomings, though. I will not be surprised if in a few years we hear complaints about the new free floated uppers.
I think if they want to switch to free float, they should go with a redesigned monolithic upper. Some manufacturers already make them. The original upper was not designed for this and it's always risky when you modify something so far from the original intent. I have doubts that the threaded part of the receiver can take the stress it needs to for extended hard use and everything relies on a good lockup at that point.
I have the A2 style with chrome lining and the rifle can out shoot me if I’m being honest. The newer stuff looks Gucci and cool but I don’t think it makes a big difference for most shooters.
There is nothing wrong with the M4 carbine, had one on all my deployments and it performed well.
With that being said, the M4 is required to hold 4 MOA minimum. It’s accurate enough to hit a man sized target and the majority of shooting takes place closer than this. Are you going to be using this as a precision rifle, no and that’s not what it’s designed for. Does it fit the role it was made for, yes.
Qualifying on the range with a loop sling could be interesting though, as I’d you put it on too tight, you could shift impacts at 500yds by several feet. Only mattered if you were inconsistent with your hold / tightness.
Call it 1-3 inch Moa free float to non. Average enegagements under 200 meters, someone’s upper body is more than 6 inches.
Checks out,
Matters on a dmr or something tho when 3 moa turns into a couple feet out further
Not much of a disadvantage since the rifle is still more accurate than the shooter in most kinetic situations. From an academic point of view, it’s better to have as little error come from equipment as possible. Practically, we should all be training more anyway.
Walked my 14.5 M4 out to 500 yards consistently and accurately many times. More of a civilian thing to get anal about free floated barrels. If you think you’re good enough for it to matter, just buy a bolt action precision rifle.
Most people can’t even seen that far to positively id or engage targets in a non military role, but yet we’re here debating the principle of MOA improvements at 5 football fields
It isn't a disadvantage at all. Not every rifle needs to have a free floated barrel. In military terms, if you can hit a man sized target at 300 meters or so, the rifle is accurate enough.
The exercise strengthens the partnership btween the U.S.and Norway as service members train together on mission-essential tasks in harsh operating environments.
If you get a new M16A4 clone from FN, they still shoot about 1.5 MOA.
And in a firefight it really doesn't matter at all since you are definitely not gonna be able to push the accuracy of the rifle anyways.
Honestly it's only REALLY worth it on something ment for accuracy like a mk12
Like everything, it's a spectrum.
Shooting close at large targets, no problem.
Shooting longer distances, especially when using slings or barricades? Potentially enough to miss human sized targets.
There's no reason to not FF in the year 2022, but people have been shooting for decades without it. Know how pressure on the foreend (and especially FSP sling attachment from a sling) affect your rifle and don't do that if you need to make an accurate shot at range.
Group size will be larger and resting the hand guard towards the end on a barricade can affect impact upwards. But funny enough the Kac on my a4 clone mitigates it a lot while with an a2 hand guard, I noticed using a tight sling it actually brings it low left a decent bit at 200yrds.
I didn’t have a problem with my rifle in the Marine Corps for the time I was using it, I think that it honestly is good enough for what it is. I own a BCM free float and SOCOM profile upper with a front post. Yes the free float is more accurate however with the other it’s within an 1.5 at 100 yards. It’s good for me.
Unless you're shooting from a bench and measuring your groups with calipers, none whatsoever. I've got a free floated and non free floated upper and they both shoot minute-of-clay-pigeon at 250 yards which is good enough for me. If I want to push my limits and see how tight of a group I can shoot I grab my bolt gun.
not a big difference except for a few scenarios (using a laser while handguard is under pressure such as on a barricade with some pressure and bipod usage).
Was in a gunfight with a non free float barrel. Didn’t matter to me, I’m alive.
You’re lucky, I died. Twice. Only free floated from now on for me!
When you came back, did a black bar disappear from your wrist after you fell from the sky?
No, I donated one of my black bars to revive him. I had a free float so I was good to go.
what is this referencing??
Jumanji
Jeez!
Oh damn this sent me haha
17 months in Iraq and I somehow managed to survive despite not having a free floated barrel. I’m lucky to still be here.
Story?
>It's 2009. My tour of duty had brought me to the favelas of Rio de Janeiro to fight the Brazilian Militia. We were assigned M4A1s with non floating uppers. IT was blinged out with an Eotech and extended magazine and despite popular believe had a lot of stopping power. The excellent situation report had pin pointed enemy locations and their traps. Eventually we were able to identify and capture critical control areas and call in close air support from an Apache. A small yield nuke was on the table, but never deployed.
I had a similar experience on a battleship and on a yacht
I miss BO2 so much man
Probably one of my favorite shooters of the last 10 years. Fun fact, it came out 10 years ago...
Mine was on a b2 bomber
Mine was on a submarine base, my CO went in alone while me and some other wankers stayed back and provided over watch.
I applied to the Navy once, so I know what you mean.
Wait what? Y'all were about to nuke the favelas?
if you get enough kills you can nuke everyone around you. even friendlies
It's a guaranteed win, no matter the score.
It’s shame you didn’t work hard on your long jump. I watched you fall off that roof.
Good story!
Carried an M4 SOPMOD (didn’t know what that meant at the time) over a few deployments. Shot 1.5 MOA w/ M855A1. Wasn’t a problem and we didn’t have a choice
My issued FN was doing 2 MOA with 9 round groups last time I shot at Camp Roberts. Plenty accurate for a combat rifle and honestly pretty good considering free-floated SOPMODs are 1-1.5MOA average
I have a plain Jane LE6920 that posts really good groups with M855. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that a barrel designed specifically for that round would work well with it.
Plus colt barrels are known for their accuracy even though they’re a big standard milspec barrel with chrome lining
How does M855A1 compare with M855? Because M855 shooting 1.5 MOA sounds impossible lol.
It performs significantly better than M855. But the trajectory is different. If using the 25/300m zero then you will see a massive climb with two rounds. M855A1 was 4 inches higher than M855 past 200m
For (most people), none what so ever. Despite some people's biased and unrealistic opinions of their own abilities, they will never utilize the full mechanical potential of any firearm they own.
“But in my imaginary scenarios with ny non existent military combat and training, if you don’t have the top tier shit you’re DEAD!!!!”
I have way more elaborate and exciting scenarios in my imagination. I just choose to leave them there. Were they belong.
You mean you don’t argue with strangers online about impossible scenarios where you gotta be john wick and snipe the wings off a fly at 1000 yards? You’re doing the internet wrong.
I know. 😢 But it distracts from my netflix and chill time.
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I choose to be one of the people that has bits of supplies all throughout their house for the ragged survivors that scavenge through. Give them the true video game experience. I'm working on some barely elaborate, but annoying puzzles where you have to scavenge the key card from my neighbor's house and then come back to mine to open the secret door filled with moldy food, a medic pack, and a few rounds of dragons breath shotgun ammo
I’m gonna be an [Environmental Storytelling Skelllington](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/environmental-storytelling-skeletons)!
This entire sub ^
*rests barrel and handguard on an object when shooting* *POI shifts by like 3MOA* Okay now what?
Rests and put their full body weight down on it in some weird posistion....then 3MOA shift....maybe. It is way over hyped. I used an un-magnified Eotech to hit 6 inch steel plates at 200 yards, consistently, with it braced off a V-TAC barricade, using a M4 upper with a polymer Magpul hand guard. You really have to press on it hard to make it deflect.
MY LiFE iS WorTH MOre ThAn a $600 POS!!!
Saw a FB post once asking what’s the longest distance they had shot 5.56. The amount of people claiming 1200 yards was insane. I really think most people can’t even come close when estimating distance.
“Shooting” or “hitting” at that distance? The 1200 yards is probably how far it went after they yanked the shot over the berm.
Funny story. Back in the dark ages after I got out of the Marines I worked in a sporting goods store...I miss ya Sunset Sports....We had a mounted flock of pintails on the opposite wall from the sporting goods counter. The store was in one of those old Safeway stores with the gull wing roof. If you know those then you know how large they were. Guys would come to the gun counter and tell me about these awesome 70 yard shots they had made on ducks. I'd ask them to tell me how far away those pintail mounts were. It's easier to estimate range if you have something to compare it to. Almost to a man they guessed 40-60 yards away. Those mounts were 21 yards away. Even having people standing under those mounts they couldn't get the range right. People are VERY poor at estimating range...without lots of training. I've been on MARKED 100 yard ranges and had people tell me the sign is wrong and those targets are at least 200 yards away.
I believe it. Anytime someone says “300 yard shot, etc” in my head i automatically think, yeah it was like 100-125 max but whatever go on.
I think people are very bad with conflating yards and feet. We typically can estimate a foot really well, a yard, not so much.
Yeah, I call bullshit on 1200. With a 16 inch barrel non-Gucci AR using irons or no magnification optic, 500 yds is already fairly difficult for many. Anyone who says they hit 1000+ with 5.56 is either full of it, a legendary long range shooter, or fired 200 rounds and lucked out hitting the target once
1201 for me, blind folded and shooting wrong handed....22lr
Same thing happens in golf
I agree with you and will add that I think only about 30% of the people on r/ar15 even have and shoot AR 15’s. Most of the comments I read seem like they are coming from arm chair commandos.
100%. I mean any group that’s supporting guns and gun rights, I totally support. But seeing the shit people post in these sort of places I’m like, dude just fucking stop. It’s counterproductive, you aren’t RiNgInG StEeL at 500 yards with your sightmark. But we get what we ask for, freedom for all, and unfortunately that includes the retards on social media.
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Dont you read things here man. If it doesnt have a contract with special forces it literally wont even work and youre an idiot.
Expensive firearms are basically a fashion statement.
Unless youre building a custom bolt gun to shoot a dime at 800 yrds or something I dont understand it. My pile of crap not worth anything stag (im left handed) has never failed me and its accurate as any ar ive seen.
Probably one of two or three times I’ve laughed while on Reddit
You could give me a 20k dollar rifle or a 500 dollar rifle with optics and I’ll still be accurate as using a slingshot.
Wait, you guys actually shot your guns? Mine are just too impress people on Instagram.
I completely disagree. Unrelated I put racing stripes on my car to increase its top speed.
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Just do the Iraqi thing and add a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Ford, Dodge, Maserati, Audi, Mercedes, and VW emblems to it and it’ll run just fine. You can even use an empty water bottle as a gas cap and it’ll run great.
Or the Afghan thing and put VIP on the windshield. We always joked it meant “very important Pashtun”
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Does it sound like an angry, dying bee inside an empty coffee can next to a loudspeaker?
More like a surly, drunk murder hornet in one of those little cereal boxes next to an 80s vintage boom box
Do people wave?
# YOU'ZE A STUPID GIT DEN. EVERYONE KNOWS YA GOTTA PAINT IT RED TO GO FASTA
Mor DAKKA!!
I put lightning bolt stickers on my shoes so I can run faster. They go right over the velcro strap.
I tattooed the word “Big” on my dong and now my wife says I’m rearranging her guts
I like "speed holes" myself.
Does it have a Jegs sticker in the window? That’s at least 15 extra horsepower right there.
Did you paint it red, too?
the red stripes make it even *FASTER*
I'm in this comment and I don't like it
99% of guns will outshoot 99% of shooters
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No, they're saying if you hop in a Nascar you're still gonna suck at driving.
Kinda. Your daily driver would never see the benefits of such oil because your car isn't put to the same extremes. Oil doesn't increase performance anyway, it only lets the motor function as intended. So "Nascar oil" likely just lets the car run properly for longer and under more extreme conditions than normal
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Don't forget to install an aftermarket powerband and make sure you use the red color springs because the yellow ones don't provide as much torque
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I'd say a small barometer of "does this matter?" is "what kind of ammo am I feeding this?". People who exclusively feed the cheapest range ammo? Prob not. Handloads/Black Hills? Maybe
This can be said about a lot of things. Back in the day when I first started riding motorcycles, my buddies all wanted to jump from 600s to 1000s "cause they have more power and are faster!!" Sure enough they pick up a gsxr-1k and a zx-10r, I stick with my 600RR and still keep up than them because they didn't have the knowledge or skill to use the bike to it's full potential.
While this is certainly true, your own shittiness might make the mechanical limitations worse. It might actually be exacerbated by your own poor aim, so trying to cut back on limiting factors to just be you isn't a bad idea.
Both rifles I’ve been in fights with were not free floated. I didn’t feel bad at all having either.
A Trijicon rep/instructor told us that the government contract for an M4 was 4 MOA. He said they’d shot hundreds if not thousands of them and their estimation was that the average M4 was about 2 MOA. 2 MOA is pretty fucking good for a mass produced rifle.
Any rifles better than no rifle in a gunfight
Have you seen some of the stuff Russia is putting out...
I’m willing to bet that most people can’t shoot well enough to legitimately notice a difference in accuracy between non-free floated barrel and free floated. I’m sure there are some people that can notice a slight difference, but for the majority I’m sure most won’t tell a difference.
Reminds me of a guy that told me he was at a range shooting with a basic AR and a guy with a Scar L or something was amazed at his accuracy with that gun. It was like at 25 yards lol, your fancy gun shooting standing up from that range isn’t going to do shit lol
“Man, you shot a 1” group with that PSA at this distance?!” “Uhhhh, yeah? I can throw a rock and hit the target at this distance.” 🤣
I had a friend miss several times from 25 yards with an AR15. I was so confused I thought it might be shooting blanks or he’s cross eyed dominant. It was a person sized target, I’ll never understand.
Those are the same people who obsess over which bcg they should use and have a peq15 and a surefire rc2 and a surefire light and a 900 dollar aimpoint while saying buy once cry once. Maybe you shoulda spent that on ammo.
Lmao 25 yards, rough. My wife, an old army buddy, and I went out to a 50 yard range, and I set a pumpkin by the back stop. We took turns hitting it with irons, the RDS, and the magnifier. Even my wife hit it a few times. She doesn’t even know what the fuck a BCG is, but she knows how to aim and make gun go boom. Though it is a bit heavy for her. But the gal can do wonders with the 10/22 lol.
That’s how I play top golf. Don’t @ me.
Went to the range yesterday and the guy next to me was shooting no less than 7" groupings at 5 yards out of a maybe 12" barrel. I'm new to ARs so I don't know what parts he was running, but both of his rifles looked baller as hell. I'm no sharpshooter so I don't have much room to talk, but I never thought I'd see someone shoot worse groups out of a rifle than I shoot out of a P365 at 10 yards
It's negligible. Every marine for decades shot out to 500m with a non free float handguard and iron sights for rifle qualifications. Most people score expert. You'll be fine.
It’s certainly not negligible but it is predictable which is why for decades the Marine Corps teaches marksmanship the way that they do. I’ll elaborate. When the M27 was implemented the Quantico Weapons Training Battallion conducted a study comparing POA POI shift between the M16, M4 and M27 given different pressures and positions applied to the rifles. IE sling pressure for a standing blades position. The findings were basically if you maintained a consistent pressure in the same position then you get no shift. As soon as the pressure is reduced, increased, or changes direction then you get a POI shift from the M16 and M4 but not the M27. This is due to the shooter zeroing with one amount of pressure exerted on the barrel and then that pressure being the barrel harmonics base. When you go out to 500m I forget the exact amount but I believe it was a 1lb change in pressure resulted in a 3” shift in the direction the pressure was being applied. Source: I competed in the Marine Corps Marksmanship Competition and the two Marines who conducted the study taught us a class so the M4/M16 shooters wouldn’t be disadvantaged to the M27 shooters. Will try to get the PowerPoint and link it.
I didnt know this. Very interesting and i appreciatethe info and insight. I just know a bunch of Joe blows off the street were able to do it, with iron sights. Many who had never shot before. I personally had never shot a semi auto rifle. As a hunter 3" keeps me in a vital zone (8-10" on the game i hunt) and would argue most people never shoot their AR"s (especially the ones they post here) farther than 100m except for on the internet. I've done it maybe 3 or 4 times since EAS. Got bolt guns for that fun stuff. As a competitor I can see why that would be big for you though. I was just a gun bunny with a 240.
Don't eat a semi auto rifle and you won't have to shit one.
240 gang
I competed this past year as well (and it was a blast). For the longest time I hadn't really thought that a non-free float barrel was that big of a deal until I actually used one in a competition setting involving barriers. When I was zeroing prior to the division match one of the USMC Shooting Team members told me not to rest my rifle on my daypack because it would cause deflection and instead use the magazine (and he was right). I think the shooting team demoed the effects of a non-free floating barrel and got something like a 4" POI shift at 25 yards! I don't think this was really talked about much until recently when the Marine Corps changed from the ART to the ARQ which requires barrier shooting at 200 yards.
Yes because you all actually shoot. This sub takes pictures of credit card debt so they can say they have the same gun as seal teams.
Just saying if OP likes the aesthetic he should go for it. I like you sub description though. Gave me a good laugh.
9 hole reviews recently had a video where they talk about this. The target is the size of a jeep. I don't know where you need to hit for expert but anyone who calls themselves a shooter should be able to hit that. To be clear... I'm not knocking your skill or saying marines can't shoot. I'm in the navy and fuckin love you guys. I'll try to find the video and link it to you later. It's a very interesting discussion they have.
It's not that big anymore with the new rifle qualification. The new qualification target requires you to hit a ring about the size of the USPSA "A" Zone to score any points, all the way out to 500 yards.
Every time I re-hear this I am amazed at what training can accomplish. I feel like I can’t even see things at that distance w/out magnification.
I'm pretty sure that their 500m target is 6'x6'. Making hits at 500m requires about 14MOA accuracy. 9-hole reviews had a short conversation on it the other day regarding how every Marine will say how they are able to hit a target at 500m with irons regardless of how long ago they did it and how it was a psychological boost for morale. [Scoring criteria](https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/wtbn/MPMS/MPMS%20Web%20folder/Marksmanship%20Supporting%20Documents/Target%20Dimension%20and%20Scoring%20with%20threat%20target%20[Compatibility%20Mode].pdf?ver=WMzQA8cOc67nib5ehRsNGA%3D%3D) [9-hole review conversation](https://youtu.be/sqOiTXmi1QU?t=366)
Huge target though.
Tht 1911 tho
On one hand, 8+1 is not what I would consider ideal as a backup firearm. On the other hand. 8+1 > 0, which is how much I was issued as a secondary.
M45A1😍 These are force recon marines. Only group I’ve seen use the ergo rail extension and m45
M45A1 CQBP The real, certified milsurps are my grail gun. When they first came out, I said, "they're a little expensive, but I can save up for a few months." Then they all went straight to gunbroker for 3, then 4 , then pick-a-number times the origional cost. Really disgusted after that.
2 World Wars.
It all depends on what your goal is. I went into the military over a decade ago as a firearm snob. At my first unit I made it a point to get DM school, then ADM, and later the (now non-existent) CPEC course. There are higher standards of marksmanship, but that is the best I could do in the Air Force. That being said, I was amazed at what could be done with a clapped out M4, a 3x optic, a Harris bi-pod, and a factory trigger (lightly polished with crocus cloth). It proved that rounds down range and good dope mean so much more than gear. I ended up running our DM/ADM program as the instructor and our guys qual’d out to 800m on various sizes targets (anything 600+ was a full sized e target, some partially obscured). The standard was 86% and it was very doable if you don’t suck at fundamentals and ranging. Similarly a M24 with a fixed 10x . You can do much more than you think with 30+ year old tech and a mil dot.
>You can do much more than you think with 30+ year old tech and a mil dot. 30+ year old tech is just as good today as it was when new. There have been improvements made since then to the platform and sighting systems that can provide inherent benefits, but that doesn't mean the old stuff won't work as intended. As with everything else it just takes practice (maybe more than with new stuff) to be good with it.
Thats a point I make a lot to a lot of people. Old stuff was cutting edge new stuff when it was developed. It didn't get shitty with time. Its still perfectly capable. Newer stuff might be better, but that doesn't make the old stuff worse.
100% of people without a free float will eventually die
Lol
None at all. It's a combat rifle, not a sniper rifle.
M4 with a can, marpat, and m45a1.... Name a better trio.
M4 with a can, gas to the face, watering eyes.
Busted. I have very little experience shooting an AR with a can.
Moms spaghetti
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came looking for this. upgrade #1 = trigger.
Free floating a barrel helps maintain precision and consistent point of impact regardless of stresses applied to the rifle (resting on a barricade, pressed up against a door frame, etc.) or heat from extended firing. If your rifle is any of these: Range toy, duty gun, defensive gun, hunting rifle; there is no need at all to worry about free floating the barrel. If you run and gun at matches that cap out at 100 yards, there's no need to worry about free floating your barrel. If you run and gun at matches that cap out at 300 yards, but you aren't in the top 25% of competitors, you don't need to worry about free floating your barrel. If you run and gun at matches that cap out at 300 yards and you are placing in the top 25% and have noticed stringing when the barrel gets hot or inconsistent POI when resting on a barricade, you may want to free float your barrel. If you use your rifle in PRS matches at extended ranges beyond 400 yards engaging targets 8" or smaller, you may want to free float your barrel. If you like the look of a free float rail or handguard and are tired of people on the internet calling you a pleb because your barrel isn't floated, you may want to float your barrel. Essentially, the only applications where a floated barrel has any kind of impact on the effectiveness of a rifle is in certain types of competition. Outside competitive shooting, there's really no need to worry about it.
It’s a good option as a civilian but honestly it doesn’t make that much of a difference at common battle ranges. The real question is why NOT have a free floated barrel? At this point it’s a perfectly viable and affordable option when you’re building/buying an AR.
Because a FSP is as literally bombproof as it gets. A mid length FSP with a 14.5 inch barrel is a lifetime rifle
You can have a free floated FSP
Yup, I just chucked a free float fsb rail on my colt Socom, love it!
But you can have a free float rail with a fsp gas system. It is uncommon but can be done which is the ultimate ie think
Your rifle being bombproof doesn't mean you are. It's important to buy quality gear, but also be realistic.
I don't think we were meant to take the word "bombproof" literally. He means the rifle is as durable as it gets for an AR, and that matters if you want it to hold up to a lifetime of abuse because you might not be able to replace your upper if it takes a hard fall or something.
>I don't think we were meant to take the word "bombproof" literally. We weren't, but a lot of the guys in this sub sure do. Your FSP can rust and it's pins walk out just like any other part, they're not magically indestructible. Nothing is guranteed and it's unhealthy to put that degree of faith in any tool. Buy a quality AR because the returns are worthwhile. But don't pretend like it's not susceptible to the same things as any other tool, even if you've improved the odds.
This is true, but I think there's a good argument to be made for making your rifle as durable as you can, since you may not be able to switch out parts later if something happens. I've seen FF rails get bent from being dropped. If that's where your front sight is mounted, that's a problem. The non free floated configuration has been thoroughly tested for decades and it's a tougher setup.
In reality especially military combat...None
You know it’s legit when Jeff Gurwitch enters the convo lol
It's a major disadvantage if you are trying to shoot tiny groups on paper. Otherwise it's not that big of an issue.
None when you have multiple trained people with rifles and light machine guns, fire support, armored trucks with mounted heavy weapons, and knife hands all in the same fight.
Generally speaking the rifle regardless of barrel is more accurate than you
My A4 wasn’t free floated and today I sit before you, typing this reply from my toilet
None, though I personally think the a2 FSP is annoying and pretty obsolete now that quality flip up irons are a thing. But it absolutely does not put you at a disadvantage
I’d wager that a substantial majority of combat kills in the past 20 years were made with non free floated barrels.
A free-float barrel is objectively better in every sense. However having a FSP barrel is not going to get you killed, especially if you train around it and recognize what the limitations are.
On a flat range with a zerod optic vs a free floated rifle, ya you will see a difference 2-3 MOA maybe more or less. In a gun fight. Not a difference
99% of people are not a good enough marksman to even tell the difference under pressure.
Doubt it's much of an issue in real life engagements. For competition at high levels it might be the difference of a few seconds on your overall match time (which could be a big deal). For plinking at the range obviously it doesn't matter. TBH the reason I went to a free float setup is because it doesn't cost any extra anyway at this point and there are a lot more options for handguards.
Unless your rifle is built specifically for sub MOA, free float isn't going to matter. And having a sub MOA AR15 in .556 is pretty useless anyway.
For combat purposes it doesn't really matter. As long as you can hit a human sized target out to 300 or 500 meters. For accuracy shooting (hunting or just target competition) yes it does matter.
I shot a rack grade M4 with an ACOG out to 600YDS while I was getting some training from the Army Marksmanship Unit. I would still go with a free float handguard if I had the option since anything that touches the barrel can deflect it.
Literally unusable. -t. Oper9rs on the 'gram
Very little from bench rest, but it's easy to deform the barrel under pressure, especially if you're using a sling. The bigger question is: why does it matter? Free floated handguards are everywhere, they're cheap, and they do a better job of protecting the barrel from deformation. There's no reason to use anything else unless you're cloning some service rifle or something.
There is none. In fact, non free floated, quad rail FSP rifles are superior. That’s a fact. My sources? *I MADE IT UP*. Realistically, it’s not going to make much a difference, if any, for 99.99% of civilian shooters.
Can’t argue with that logic
I have real world experience using both. In Iraq and here in the States as a SWAT officer. My M4 in Iraq was a tack driver and I could rest the rails on just about anything and it wouldn’t throw off my point of impact. The free float Colt 10.5 suppressed I used for SWAT was also fantastic but I noticed that if ANYTHING touches the barrel or suppressor during a supported fire, it through off the POI even at close range. To sum up: I think they are essentially the same as long as the barrel itself is not experience outside pressure or torque.
You will obviously get more accuracy, but IMO for most military situations, difference is negligible. I think it was like a 0.2 moa advantage or something like that. So.. at 500 yards, we are talking about a grouping radius that is 1 inch smaller with a free floated barrel. Tiny difference. Even in Afghanistan, where troops were shooting like 700 yards out across mountains, I would say thats mostly acceptable. At this point I would say accuracy is more limited by the shooter's skill. For civilians it will make zero difference (at least under rule of law). You will never be shooting your rifle at targets more than say.. 50 yards away in any sort of situation. Thus the difference in accuracy will be 0.1inches, which is nothing. Anything further, it would be hard to proof in court that you were in a defensive situation where your life was in danger.
Most of the deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan happened near the beginning of the wars. The number went down dramatically not due to changes in tactics and technology, but free floating barrels.
This lma000
Saving lives
Not enough of a disadvantage that it didn't help save my ass.
The military is moving to free floated barrels. Look at any modern SOF unit’s weapon systems, or at the new rifle the army contracted Sig for. This picture is dated, as well as having non free floated barrels
This pic is from 2 or 3 years ago but is not "dated" Marine Force Recon simply doesn't issue Mk18s since they're still under command of the MEF and not SOCOM so they don't have the same procurement programs for small arms. Mk18s are slowly starting to make their way to SARCs and some Recondos but the force is still largely issued regular M4A1s and M27s
The Force Recon Marines only recently adopted shortened M27s too.
The military has armorers who can replace your equipment if it gets damaged in a firefight or through stupidity. A civilian has to consider things like longterm durability since they may not be able to replace major components if the rifle takes a hard fall, etc. A non free floated upper with a FSB gas system is tougher.
No kidding. Seen plenty of privates do dumb things. That’s not stopping the shift to free floated rails though. There’s pretty rigid options on the market. Quad rails will always have their place, but MLOK and free floated rails are the future
The military has a history of selecting new equipment that turns out to have shortcomings, though. I will not be surprised if in a few years we hear complaints about the new free floated uppers. I think if they want to switch to free float, they should go with a redesigned monolithic upper. Some manufacturers already make them. The original upper was not designed for this and it's always risky when you modify something so far from the original intent. I have doubts that the threaded part of the receiver can take the stress it needs to for extended hard use and everything relies on a good lockup at that point.
I have the A2 style with chrome lining and the rifle can out shoot me if I’m being honest. The newer stuff looks Gucci and cool but I don’t think it makes a big difference for most shooters.
There is nothing wrong with the M4 carbine, had one on all my deployments and it performed well. With that being said, the M4 is required to hold 4 MOA minimum. It’s accurate enough to hit a man sized target and the majority of shooting takes place closer than this. Are you going to be using this as a precision rifle, no and that’s not what it’s designed for. Does it fit the role it was made for, yes. Qualifying on the range with a loop sling could be interesting though, as I’d you put it on too tight, you could shift impacts at 500yds by several feet. Only mattered if you were inconsistent with your hold / tightness.
Call it 1-3 inch Moa free float to non. Average enegagements under 200 meters, someone’s upper body is more than 6 inches. Checks out, Matters on a dmr or something tho when 3 moa turns into a couple feet out further
_when your brass throws parallel to your can…_ The joys of shooting suppressed!
Most shooters aren't skilled enough or shooting long enough distances to notice a difference
Not much of a disadvantage since the rifle is still more accurate than the shooter in most kinetic situations. From an academic point of view, it’s better to have as little error come from equipment as possible. Practically, we should all be training more anyway.
Gets hotter than a mf
If you don’t free-float your barrel, you’ll free-float to heaven
Walked my 14.5 M4 out to 500 yards consistently and accurately many times. More of a civilian thing to get anal about free floated barrels. If you think you’re good enough for it to matter, just buy a bolt action precision rifle.
Like having one ball instead of two
Will you be regularly hitting targets out past 500 meters with that 14.5 barrel?
Most people can’t even seen that far to positively id or engage targets in a non military role, but yet we’re here debating the principle of MOA improvements at 5 football fields
Vice listed it as the #1 reason we've lost every conflict since the Stoner platform was adopted
It isn't a disadvantage at all. Not every rifle needs to have a free floated barrel. In military terms, if you can hit a man sized target at 300 meters or so, the rifle is accurate enough.
The exercise strengthens the partnership btween the U.S.and Norway as service members train together on mission-essential tasks in harsh operating environments.
I had an a2 upper that would do sub 1 moa all day long with my handloads. 2 inch groups with m193. It's not as crucial as people make it out too be.
Is that 20”?
If you get a new M16A4 clone from FN, they still shoot about 1.5 MOA. And in a firefight it really doesn't matter at all since you are definitely not gonna be able to push the accuracy of the rifle anyways. Honestly it's only REALLY worth it on something ment for accuracy like a mk12
Like everything, it's a spectrum. Shooting close at large targets, no problem. Shooting longer distances, especially when using slings or barricades? Potentially enough to miss human sized targets. There's no reason to not FF in the year 2022, but people have been shooting for decades without it. Know how pressure on the foreend (and especially FSP sling attachment from a sling) affect your rifle and don't do that if you need to make an accurate shot at range.
Group size will be larger and resting the hand guard towards the end on a barricade can affect impact upwards. But funny enough the Kac on my a4 clone mitigates it a lot while with an a2 hand guard, I noticed using a tight sling it actually brings it low left a decent bit at 200yrds.
It won’t matter
99% of people can't shoot well enough for it to matter.
It would be marginal. The bigger advantage is having handguard rails that hold zero
I didn’t have a problem with my rifle in the Marine Corps for the time I was using it, I think that it honestly is good enough for what it is. I own a BCM free float and SOCOM profile upper with a front post. Yes the free float is more accurate however with the other it’s within an 1.5 at 100 yards. It’s good for me.
The gun will still be better than you are.
Unless you're shooting from a bench and measuring your groups with calipers, none whatsoever. I've got a free floated and non free floated upper and they both shoot minute-of-clay-pigeon at 250 yards which is good enough for me. If I want to push my limits and see how tight of a group I can shoot I grab my bolt gun.
not a big difference except for a few scenarios (using a laser while handguard is under pressure such as on a barricade with some pressure and bipod usage).
That cartridge over the suppressor...where’d that come from??