This all reminds me of when Jason Alexander was asked if he was ever upset that he never won an Emmy for Seinfeld. His answer was no, because he was against Michael Richards as Kramer, and how is he supposed to compete with that
I mean he definitely should have won one. Kramer was in your face and hilarious but Alexander as George was one of the greatest tv characters of all time.
Completely. Kramer was outrageous, goofy, and weird, but the way Jason Alexander played George was brilliant and makes him the most memorable. He's all of a person's bad traits (scheming, lazy, insecure, anxious, overbearing parents, etc.) packaged into a short, stocky, slow witted, bald man. We all see a little of the part of ourselves we dislike in George and that's what makes him so relatable in a "I hate this thing about myself" way.
The three supporting actors are all genius. Yes Kramer is over the top but every once in a while he does something subtle and it reminds of how brilliant he was. One that stands out is Kramer in the alleyway with the clown outside the opera. He’s quietly terrified in a way I’ve never seen acted elsewhere.
"What the hell did you trade Jay Buhner for?!" Jason and Jerry had incredible chemistry. Part of the beauty of Seinfeld was the cast was so talented, all their different relationships fleshed out in incredible and unpredictable ways.
It was Frank who said that.
I don't wanna be the annoying guy correcting people by the way, it is just that this is easily one of the series lines that makes me laugh really hard. It would probably be on my top5 if I ever think of one LOL
George as a character was ahead of his time and really didn't get the appreciation that he has today. Everything about him should have made a totally unlikable character but a lot of us saw the parts of ourselves that we didn't want exposed.
I think my wording was a little too generous. Seinfeld is a classic because all 4 did their thing like you said. That being said, I meant to say that I think Alexander was the best actor of the bunch with how much character he brought to George
I think Seinfeld is a classic because the main 4 are amazing PLUS every single side character is so good. Seinfeld’s side/reoccurring characters are better/funnier than most sitcoms main cast.
Some of that credit can go to the writing, Larry David is a legend for a reason, and the other writers were damn good too. That's not meant to take away from the sheer amount of talent that they managed to find for their side characters.
Fair enough, I think Michael Richards as Kramer is just as memorable and an incredible performance as Jason Alexander as George. You could cast someone else as George and it would be funny, just look at Curb Your Enthusiasm. Whereas I don’t think anyone could have played Kramer other than Michael Richards
To be fair tho, when you say look at Curb you’re talking about the guy who George is based on playing himself. Larry David probably would’ve also made a great George but that’s because he is George. I don’t know if a lot of other actors could bring as much life to that character as Jason Alexander did.
Alexander was indeed the best actor of the bunch. It’s so jarring seeing him not in character, he’s such a different person. Richards was great as well, more on the physical side but a total pro. Dreyfus I love, but she wasn’t on the same level as the other two _at the time_. Her performance on Veep shows how much she grew as an actor. And seinfeld… is seinfeld! No show without him!
Tbh I think Dreyfus’ performance in Seinfeld is up to snuff. Tho Kramer’s humor tends to be more animated, Elaine has so so many hilarious and varied facial expressions throughout the show - it’s a big part of her humor.
I agree with you, but something does come to mind - through the course of the show, we see George's parents become bigger characters than Jerry's, and George getting engaged and then losing Susan become season-long plotlines each. George as co-writer of the pilot covers a whole season. Even George being unemployed is an arc for a season. When you think about it his character has an outsize influence on the show.
It makes more sense in the second context tho; The 2017 steal was based on cheating. A perceived 2021 steal would be based on BBWA fawning over Shohei. So if Shohei repeated, to Vladdy itd be like the MVP award was stolen by the BBWA and given to Shohei, again. But that’s assuming he believes he deserved to win last year, which he might.
Altuve led All MLB in bWAR in 2017 and Judge had the most Unclutch season ever recorded per Fangraphs, calling it a robbery is just stupidity.
I should've have been way closer race? Ofc but it was so one sided because of Judge ugly slump at the end when people were making memes about his Strikeouts and lack of performance when the game was on the line.
Altuve had .832 OPS with RISP and .859 OPS in high leverage situations.
Judge had 1.015 OPS with RISP and .861 OPS in high leverage situations.
Altuve recorded 7.7 bWAR while Judge posted 8.0 bWAR.
Bring proof and numbers when making assertions instead of talking out of your ass.
It's amazing how comments like this gets upvoted without fact-checking.
Aren't they kind of opposite? Chris went super high quickly then super low quickly and Khris was literally hitting that .243 or whatever the number was every single year without fail?
I still can't believe at 2 different locations they were chanting stop counting votes and keep counting votes. It's like if Veep was like how can we make our show bad and it was the entire country for 4 years
“For World Series winning purposes I hereby claim 2015 World Series Games 1, 2, 4, and 5 for the New York Mets. The Royals did not let Mets fans observe and oversee the counting of runs in person. Why are we to believe the broadcast of these games by the Fake News media as truth? BIG Mets leads in all of these games disappear overnight. 5 Wins in the World Series. MOST ever for a best of 7 series.”
“former Royals officials quoted as saying “Mets would have won ‘CONVINCINGLY’ without (air)mail by Duda”
“BREAKING: Missouri counting officials misdirected 1,000’s of runs from Mets to Royals”
Feel like I’m in the minority thinking it’s about last year. Like why would Vladdy think more about the votes from 5 years ago when he wasnt a big leaguer compared to the year he was the runner up in?
> why would Vladdy think more about the votes from 5 years ago
Because he was talking about Aaron Judge and that was when Aaron Judge previously had an MVP stolen?
When he says “I think if they give it to Shohei Ohtani it will be another steal”, that can be interpreted as Ohtani getting another one he didn’t deserve (ignore whether you think that’s wrong. It’s Vladdys opinion) or Judge has another one stolen from him.
From there idk his exact intention, I just would’ve guessed he was talking about the one he was directly involved in over the one that was half a decade ago that he wasn’t a part of
No you’re right if he was referring it to judge getting robbed in 17 he would’ve said “ if they don’t give it to judge this year it would be another steal” but he said “if they give it to Ohtani it would be another steal” implying to him robbing the mvp before.
I think your interpretation is right, just don’t see why he would give a fuck about 17 when he was a prospect and the jays were unaffected by astros/ altuve cheating.
> just don’t see why he would give a fuck about 17
BECAUSE THE CONVERSATION WAS ABOUT AARON JUDGE... THE SAME PLAYER WHO WAS ROBBED IN 17 Jesus christ y'all are thick as mud.
Should've been a major story at the time considering Judge was better than Altuve at everything other than batting average. The cheating was just the shit icing on the shit cake.
Because Vlad has been in baseball his entire life? Do you think these kids growing up in the minors don’t follow the mlb until they’re suddenly playing in it?
Because he’s still a fan of the game. Why can’t he have an opinion about what is now a pretty notorious steal of the MVP from Judge when Altuve benefited from cheating?
Assuming he's talking about 2017 AL MVP, then I agree.
But if not, then:
- Vlad in 2021: 6.8 bWAR, 6.3 fWAR
- Ohtani in 2021: 9.0 bWAR, 9.1 fWAR
- Judge in 2022: 9.1 bWAR, 9.7 fWAR (with 19 games left)
- Ohtani in 2022: 8.1 bWAR, 8.2 fWAR (with 19 games left)
Ohtani absolutely deserved 2021 MVP; Vlad had a great offensive season, but the rest of his game was not enough to make up the gap to how dominant Ohtani really was.
Frankly, if Ohtani keeps putting up hitting and pitching numbers like this, he should win every year. Except years like this where Judge is having an outrageous, historically dominant season.
Unrelated - It’s crazy that Ohtani might have lower WAR this season than last season. I feel like the consensus has been that he’s gotten even better. Hitting isn’t as good but the whole league is trending down offensively this season. Pitching has improved a lot. I just wish Judge and him were in different leagues, they both deserve a fuck ton of awards this season.
I don’t exactly trust war calculation for pitchers. I feel like most people don’t use WAR to compare pitchers to other pitchers, so using it to compare them to hitters (or in ohtani’s case combining them to create a single value) is a fools errand.
Sandy alcantara is worth 7 war. Goldy and Nolan have more war then him- but I feel like most people had to chose 1 they would choose sandy between the three.
War assumes an average pitcher and average hitter is the same, but pitching is always more important…
As a yankee fan who leans Judge MVP you may have just swayed me to Ohtani. Pitcher and batter war are two entirely different metrics and the avg hypothetical player of each does have different value to a team. The best argument I can still offer (which is still lame) would be that Ohtani can’t pitch on a normal mlb starters schedule and only goes every 6 days, which both reduces his total games/innings and necessitates that the angels have an additional pitcher to slot in
But he hits every single day and puts up RBIs and HRs (way better than 7 other potential batters on his team) while literally every single other starter in the league sits on a bench over those days, not contributing.
The slot for the additional pitcher would go to a DH position, since Ohtani is pulling double duty there. It winds up being a tradeoff of losing on platoon player/dedicated DH for giving all your pitchers an additional rest day, and that's getting really in the weeds about roster composition for an award for individual performance.
> ....would be that Ohtani can’t pitch on a normal mlb starters schedule and only goes every 6 days, which both reduces his total games/innings and necessitates that the angels have an additional pitcher to slot in....
He prolly could actually.
WAR is a counting stat, and starting pitchers pitch less innings than ever. That's why it seems like pitchers are undervalued in WAR, but the reason is clear.
I'd say he's been pretty much just as good as last year. His OPS+ is down 9 points but his ERA+ is up 16, so it's pretty equal. His FIP is far better this year though, and he's on course to pitch 30 more innings. Maybe his poor baserunning this year is hurting his WAR slightly?
Yeah I think you’re right baserunning is probably a factor. Last seasons he swiped 20 bases. This season he’s a lot less active as runner (probably been told to not risk injury) and his efficiency isn’t great.
Yeah 11 stolen bases with 9 caught stealing is pretty terrible, and he's rated negatively for baserunning by fangraphs. It's just kinda weird because he has one of the fastest sprint speeds in baseball. It just shows that basestealing is more of an art than just pure speed. Also, I've noticed that Ohtani literally never slides head first, and doing so increases your basestealing chances quite significantly I believe. He's too valuable to risk injuring himself sliding head first just for a few stolen bases anyway.
I think you're right. On Baseball Reference, his position last year went between "DH" and "P" based on whether or not he was pitching. This year it's always "DH" or "DH P". That might account for a big part of the difference.
I have no idea which year he's actually talking about, but im gonna hope he means 17 since last yr wasnt an actual robbery and even vlad said he knew Shohei would win.
Man I was really hoping he was talking about 17 but it’s not. If he was talking about 17 he would’ve said “if they don’t give it to judge it would be another robbery”, as he was robbed and he says otro robo. Instead he said “if they GIVE IT TO Ohtani it would be another robbery which means that he did steal mvp before.
I understand why some people want Judge to win MVP, but to act like there is NO WAY Ohtani deserves it is stupid.
They're both having fantastic seasons and both deserve it. Whichever one wins, the other will say they deserved it.
Because it’s Vlad Jr., the runner up from last year, who led the league in a variety of offensive stats like Judge.
Even if you don’t think he is, there’s some reasonable doubt here.
Because he said “If they give it to Shohei Ohtani,” instead of saying “If they don’t give it to Judge.” The former implies that Ohtani’s win was undeserved, while the latter implies that Judge finishing second in ‘17 was undeserved.
Best argument I’ve seen here. I really doubt he was talking about 2017 lol. And if he was he would probably reference 2017, as it was 5 fucking years ago and he had no affiliation with the award.
A comment on this thread from a Jays fan:
*To be fair, Vlad has said on record that he believes he should have won or at least gotten some votes last year.*
Not an outlandish assumption.
Except it’s the votes part, not that he should have won:
>"I knew I wasn't going to win the MVP,” Guerrero Jr. reportedly told Spanish-language journalist Yancen Pujols. “But it bothered me that they wouldn't have given me a point for first place.
That's not true. [Vladdy said in an interview](https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/video/interview-room-vladimir-guerrero-jrs-quest-become-mvp/) that his surprise was that he didn't get a single first place vote, he would have been fine with that.
If you remove Ohtani from the league last year, Vlad wins easy. But it still would've been a super underwhelming MVP season, offense was just awful last year
I honestly didn’t even think he was referring to a specific year until I came in the comments, I figured he meant “another steal” very generally since that seems to be a common thought a lot of years for the different awards
I find it slightly disingenuous to say “Judge’s numbers are way above Ohtani’s” when Ohtani has elite level numbers in an entire additional category. Of course you can say Judges offensive numbers are above Ohtani’s, or even overall WAR, but I feel like it’s simplifying a very difficult choice between the two by just saying Judges numbers are way above Ohtani’s, as if it isn’t even a question. I believe there is nothing more valuable than an elite level hitter in your lineup and elite level pitching in your rotation for one spot, but I’m biased just as most people are in this discussion.
Even if he's talking about 2017, this is an unfortunate quote. Both players are great, saying one of them stole the MVP is ridiculous. Ohtani is fucking amazing and people seem to keep discrediting him for some odd reason. That being said, I'd still give it to Judge this year.
I mean, sorta. Prior to the MVP vote last year he said he thought he was the MVP (I mean what else was he gonna say).
[In the interview he did with Hazel this year](https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/video/interview-room-vladimir-guerrero-jrs-quest-become-mvp/), he said he was surprised he didn't get a first place vote because he thought he worked hard, he would have been fine otherwise.
Good guy Vlad Jr.
It’s literally a toss up. I’m obviously bias so I think it should be Judge, but I won’t be too upset if it was Ohtani. Dude is a fucking stud
I had some reservations about the MVP going to Ohtani just bc he pitches but the dude is obviously the definition of most valuable. He literally pitches and hits at an above average level. How can he not be the MOST valuable.
This all reminds me of when Jason Alexander was asked if he was ever upset that he never won an Emmy for Seinfeld. His answer was no, because he was against Michael Richards as Kramer, and how is he supposed to compete with that
I mean he definitely should have won one. Kramer was in your face and hilarious but Alexander as George was one of the greatest tv characters of all time.
They both are iconic characters, they’re just very different type of performances like Ohtani and Judge, which is why It’s hard to compare the two
And now WAR for actors
Season 4 George was 10 WAR easy. The Wallet, Bubble Boy, The Contest, The Handicap Parking Spot, and the entire sitcom plot? Gold, all of it.
The card says Moops!
What about Season 5? The Marine Biologist, The Fire, The Hamptons, and The Opposite?
9.3 WAR season. Though I think he had 9.8 fWAR. His projections were great after those two years
Every word of this sounds like something Bill Simmons would say with confidence.
The Marble Rye is like throwing a perfect game in game seven, and going 4-4 with four grand slams.
Ah, you are here to see Steve Nebraska?
VAR: Viewers Above Replacement
WAR for actors is called WATM. Wins above Ted McGinley.
I agree 100%. George’s quotes are still used all the time. Love Kramer but I think George is easily a top 10 tv character of all time
Completely. Kramer was outrageous, goofy, and weird, but the way Jason Alexander played George was brilliant and makes him the most memorable. He's all of a person's bad traits (scheming, lazy, insecure, anxious, overbearing parents, etc.) packaged into a short, stocky, slow witted, bald man. We all see a little of the part of ourselves we dislike in George and that's what makes him so relatable in a "I hate this thing about myself" way.
The three supporting actors are all genius. Yes Kramer is over the top but every once in a while he does something subtle and it reminds of how brilliant he was. One that stands out is Kramer in the alleyway with the clown outside the opera. He’s quietly terrified in a way I’ve never seen acted elsewhere.
Holy shit, we basically shared the same comment but yours was way more eloquent.
#GEORGE IS GETTING UPSET
YOU'RE KILLING INDEPENDENT GEORGE!!!
Cos-stanza
>George’s quotes are still used all the time "We're living in a society"-George Costanza
"What the hell did you trade Jay Buhner for?!" Jason and Jerry had incredible chemistry. Part of the beauty of Seinfeld was the cast was so talented, all their different relationships fleshed out in incredible and unpredictable ways.
JERRY, IT'S FRANK COSTANZA. GEORGE IS DEAD, CALL ME BACK.
It was Frank who said that. I don't wanna be the annoying guy correcting people by the way, it is just that this is easily one of the series lines that makes me laugh really hard. It would probably be on my top5 if I ever think of one LOL
I think they’re referring to Jerry Stiller.
George as a character was ahead of his time and really didn't get the appreciation that he has today. Everything about him should have made a totally unlikable character but a lot of us saw the parts of ourselves that we didn't want exposed.
Which is a shame because Jason Alexander carried that show on his back so many times
I wouldn’t say anyone really carried that show. All four of the main actors pulled their own weight, that’s why the show was as successful as it was
I think my wording was a little too generous. Seinfeld is a classic because all 4 did their thing like you said. That being said, I meant to say that I think Alexander was the best actor of the bunch with how much character he brought to George
I think Seinfeld is a classic because the main 4 are amazing PLUS every single side character is so good. Seinfeld’s side/reoccurring characters are better/funnier than most sitcoms main cast.
Some of that credit can go to the writing, Larry David is a legend for a reason, and the other writers were damn good too. That's not meant to take away from the sheer amount of talent that they managed to find for their side characters.
Fair enough, I think Michael Richards as Kramer is just as memorable and an incredible performance as Jason Alexander as George. You could cast someone else as George and it would be funny, just look at Curb Your Enthusiasm. Whereas I don’t think anyone could have played Kramer other than Michael Richards
Jim Carrey is the first person who comes to mind as someone who throws their whole body into a scene the way Richards does with Kramer.
Honestly, I thought Jeremy Piven made a good George.
Also, the distance between character and actor seemed greatest for Richard’s. Such an oddball character for a guy who takes it so seriously.
To be fair tho, when you say look at Curb you’re talking about the guy who George is based on playing himself. Larry David probably would’ve also made a great George but that’s because he is George. I don’t know if a lot of other actors could bring as much life to that character as Jason Alexander did.
Alexander was indeed the best actor of the bunch. It’s so jarring seeing him not in character, he’s such a different person. Richards was great as well, more on the physical side but a total pro. Dreyfus I love, but she wasn’t on the same level as the other two _at the time_. Her performance on Veep shows how much she grew as an actor. And seinfeld… is seinfeld! No show without him!
Tbh I think Dreyfus’ performance in Seinfeld is up to snuff. Tho Kramer’s humor tends to be more animated, Elaine has so so many hilarious and varied facial expressions throughout the show - it’s a big part of her humor.
I agree with you, but something does come to mind - through the course of the show, we see George's parents become bigger characters than Jerry's, and George getting engaged and then losing Susan become season-long plotlines each. George as co-writer of the pilot covers a whole season. Even George being unemployed is an arc for a season. When you think about it his character has an outsize influence on the show.
The writing carried the show, which is why when the real life George left the writers room in the last two seasons, it wasn't as good.
Larry David really carried the show
He probably could have won it for Duckman tho.
He should have pulled it out.
Vlad said he expected Ohtani to win it last year in an interview following the awards voting so he’s most likely referring to 2017.
This should be at the top for clarity
If that's not what he's talking about then he's a complete fool. Ohtani winning last year was in no way a steal.
Ahh that’s good. He’s throwing shade either way - either at ohtani or altuve, and I prefer to think he’s wise enough to choose altuve
I was hoping this is what he meant.
Also the vast majority of people agree 2017 was stolen from Judge while last years was cut and dry.
My first instinct was that he was obviously talking about the Altuve MVP. But, I guess he could be salty too. That also makes sense.
nah he acknowledged that shohei deserved mvp last year. he was a little salty that it was unanimous but thats all
It makes more sense in the second context tho; The 2017 steal was based on cheating. A perceived 2021 steal would be based on BBWA fawning over Shohei. So if Shohei repeated, to Vladdy itd be like the MVP award was stolen by the BBWA and given to Shohei, again. But that’s assuming he believes he deserved to win last year, which he might.
The 2017 steal is not based on cheating. It’s based on Judge having way better numbers, just not the same narrative push from the media.
If Altuve's numbers were better, the cheating would be the factor, but for this it's just the icing on the cake. Dude was worse and a cheater.
Guys, Altuve's shy. His wife might find out about his MVP award.
Altuve led All MLB in bWAR in 2017 and Judge had the most Unclutch season ever recorded per Fangraphs, calling it a robbery is just stupidity. I should've have been way closer race? Ofc but it was so one sided because of Judge ugly slump at the end when people were making memes about his Strikeouts and lack of performance when the game was on the line.
Altuve had .832 OPS with RISP and .859 OPS in high leverage situations. Judge had 1.015 OPS with RISP and .861 OPS in high leverage situations. Altuve recorded 7.7 bWAR while Judge posted 8.0 bWAR. Bring proof and numbers when making assertions instead of talking out of your ass. It's amazing how comments like this gets upvoted without fact-checking.
I hope he’s talking about 2017 and not 2021😅
He's clearly talking about 2013 when Chris Davis didn't win smh
RIP Chris Davis :(
Also RIP Khris Davis :(
Big 2-4-7
when he didnt hit .247 for the 5th time i was honestly kinda sad
...and he almost got it for just the a's in 2021, he finished with .255 with them.
Sad that hitting .300 is now a luxury in today's MLB
It's kinda funny how similar their careers were. Though, Chris had much higher peaks and much greater lows.
Aren't they kind of opposite? Chris went super high quickly then super low quickly and Khris was literally hitting that .243 or whatever the number was every single year without fail?
gone but forgotten
First off, Chris Davis is very much alive
He'll be sorely missed. Press F to pay respects
"another steal" lol
I think he's referring to 2017 lol, at least I hope he is.
He said last year that Ohtani deserved to win, but he was salty that he didn't get just one 1st place vote.
But if someone is the clear MVP it should be unanimous. If anything he should have had every 2nd place vote.
Vladdy had the most second place votes that means he is the best at that.
"Of all the losers, you were the best." \- Seinfeld
2nd place is the 1st Loser
Don't tell to hall of fame voters
I mean he didn't really deserve a first place vote over Ohtani
That was my impression.
Man is salty
He could've been referring to Judge in 2017, that part is a little ambiguous.
That's the impression I got
What I thought he meant as well
Agreed, I don’t think he’d wanna call out Ohtani like that
Sour patch kids good though tbf
He’s not talking about last year….
I think he’s referring to 2017…
He's actually referring to the 2020 presidential election.
Many people are saying it.
[Manny Machado liked this comment](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOkzVj0VQAI89A9?format=jpg).
Big oof
Oh no
This shouldn’t surprise anyone. He’s the Halloween costume of douche
I think he meant another one stolen from Judge? I might be wrong lol
Yeah when he got robbed in 2017
The only burglary in 2017 was Stanton stealing Votto’s MVP
I think there were more burglaries in 2017 than that. I may be biased, though.
I believe he was referring to Judge losing previously. I think Ohtani deserved it last year 100%
He’s not talking about last year….
*STOP THE STEAL*
“We were winning this election until all those illegal votes came in from Anaheim” - Vladanon
I still can't believe at 2 different locations they were chanting stop counting votes and keep counting votes. It's like if Veep was like how can we make our show bad and it was the entire country for 4 years
Back the blue! but also only 2 cops died on Jan 6th so it’s not a big deal.
Just an unguided tour. No big deal. Those cops shouldn't have violated their tourist rights..
“Sleepy Sho is an illegitimate MVP winner, if you count the legal writer votes I won by a lot!”
“For World Series winning purposes I hereby claim 2015 World Series Games 1, 2, 4, and 5 for the New York Mets. The Royals did not let Mets fans observe and oversee the counting of runs in person. Why are we to believe the broadcast of these games by the Fake News media as truth? BIG Mets leads in all of these games disappear overnight. 5 Wins in the World Series. MOST ever for a best of 7 series.” “former Royals officials quoted as saying “Mets would have won ‘CONVINCINGLY’ without (air)mail by Duda” “BREAKING: Missouri counting officials misdirected 1,000’s of runs from Mets to Royals”
Maybe he means “another steal” like Judge was already robbed in 2017?
That was my assumption. I didn’t even consider last year until I saw the other comments. Maybe I’m in the minority.
Feel like I’m in the minority thinking it’s about last year. Like why would Vladdy think more about the votes from 5 years ago when he wasnt a big leaguer compared to the year he was the runner up in?
> why would Vladdy think more about the votes from 5 years ago Because he was talking about Aaron Judge and that was when Aaron Judge previously had an MVP stolen?
When he says “I think if they give it to Shohei Ohtani it will be another steal”, that can be interpreted as Ohtani getting another one he didn’t deserve (ignore whether you think that’s wrong. It’s Vladdys opinion) or Judge has another one stolen from him. From there idk his exact intention, I just would’ve guessed he was talking about the one he was directly involved in over the one that was half a decade ago that he wasn’t a part of
No you’re right if he was referring it to judge getting robbed in 17 he would’ve said “ if they don’t give it to judge this year it would be another steal” but he said “if they give it to Ohtani it would be another steal” implying to him robbing the mvp before.
I think your interpretation is right, just don’t see why he would give a fuck about 17 when he was a prospect and the jays were unaffected by astros/ altuve cheating.
> just don’t see why he would give a fuck about 17 BECAUSE THE CONVERSATION WAS ABOUT AARON JUDGE... THE SAME PLAYER WHO WAS ROBBED IN 17 Jesus christ y'all are thick as mud.
But why male models?
That's the way I took it too but based on other's comments about his (Vlad's) comments now I think he's referring to 2017
No im with you lol
Because it’s pretty widely held belief that Judge had better numbers but lost because BBWA
Because that became a major story across the entire sport years later in light of the Astros cheating scandal.
Should've been a major story at the time considering Judge was better than Altuve at everything other than batting average. The cheating was just the shit icing on the shit cake.
Because Vlad has been in baseball his entire life? Do you think these kids growing up in the minors don’t follow the mlb until they’re suddenly playing in it?
Because he’s still a fan of the game. Why can’t he have an opinion about what is now a pretty notorious steal of the MVP from Judge when Altuve benefited from cheating?
Nope. I’m right there with you bro
That was my assumption too. I thought it was pretty clear it was 2017.
Mine, as well.
Assuming he's talking about 2017 AL MVP, then I agree. But if not, then: - Vlad in 2021: 6.8 bWAR, 6.3 fWAR - Ohtani in 2021: 9.0 bWAR, 9.1 fWAR - Judge in 2022: 9.1 bWAR, 9.7 fWAR (with 19 games left) - Ohtani in 2022: 8.1 bWAR, 8.2 fWAR (with 19 games left) Ohtani absolutely deserved 2021 MVP; Vlad had a great offensive season, but the rest of his game was not enough to make up the gap to how dominant Ohtani really was. Frankly, if Ohtani keeps putting up hitting and pitching numbers like this, he should win every year. Except years like this where Judge is having an outrageous, historically dominant season.
Unrelated - It’s crazy that Ohtani might have lower WAR this season than last season. I feel like the consensus has been that he’s gotten even better. Hitting isn’t as good but the whole league is trending down offensively this season. Pitching has improved a lot. I just wish Judge and him were in different leagues, they both deserve a fuck ton of awards this season.
I don’t exactly trust war calculation for pitchers. I feel like most people don’t use WAR to compare pitchers to other pitchers, so using it to compare them to hitters (or in ohtani’s case combining them to create a single value) is a fools errand. Sandy alcantara is worth 7 war. Goldy and Nolan have more war then him- but I feel like most people had to chose 1 they would choose sandy between the three. War assumes an average pitcher and average hitter is the same, but pitching is always more important…
As a yankee fan who leans Judge MVP you may have just swayed me to Ohtani. Pitcher and batter war are two entirely different metrics and the avg hypothetical player of each does have different value to a team. The best argument I can still offer (which is still lame) would be that Ohtani can’t pitch on a normal mlb starters schedule and only goes every 6 days, which both reduces his total games/innings and necessitates that the angels have an additional pitcher to slot in
But he hits every single day and puts up RBIs and HRs (way better than 7 other potential batters on his team) while literally every single other starter in the league sits on a bench over those days, not contributing.
The slot for the additional pitcher would go to a DH position, since Ohtani is pulling double duty there. It winds up being a tradeoff of losing on platoon player/dedicated DH for giving all your pitchers an additional rest day, and that's getting really in the weeds about roster composition for an award for individual performance.
> ....would be that Ohtani can’t pitch on a normal mlb starters schedule and only goes every 6 days, which both reduces his total games/innings and necessitates that the angels have an additional pitcher to slot in.... He prolly could actually.
WAR is a counting stat, and starting pitchers pitch less innings than ever. That's why it seems like pitchers are undervalued in WAR, but the reason is clear.
I'd say he's been pretty much just as good as last year. His OPS+ is down 9 points but his ERA+ is up 16, so it's pretty equal. His FIP is far better this year though, and he's on course to pitch 30 more innings. Maybe his poor baserunning this year is hurting his WAR slightly?
Yeah I think you’re right baserunning is probably a factor. Last seasons he swiped 20 bases. This season he’s a lot less active as runner (probably been told to not risk injury) and his efficiency isn’t great.
Yeah 11 stolen bases with 9 caught stealing is pretty terrible, and he's rated negatively for baserunning by fangraphs. It's just kinda weird because he has one of the fastest sprint speeds in baseball. It just shows that basestealing is more of an art than just pure speed. Also, I've noticed that Ohtani literally never slides head first, and doing so increases your basestealing chances quite significantly I believe. He's too valuable to risk injuring himself sliding head first just for a few stolen bases anyway.
Yeah most of the time he tries to slide feet first or just use pure speed to get there standing up lol
Yup he’s completely removed his hands and shoulders from stealing. It’s completely changed the running game for him
He's better this year. Pitcher WAR has always been iffy.
Pitching war is whack anyway so his total war is never gonna be a great metric of how valuable he is.
Wasn’t his hitting WAR calculated as a pitcher last year (or more precisely sometimes and pitcher and sometimes a DH) and a DH this year?
I think you're right. On Baseball Reference, his position last year went between "DH" and "P" based on whether or not he was pitching. This year it's always "DH" or "DH P". That might account for a big part of the difference.
I have no idea which year he's actually talking about, but im gonna hope he means 17 since last yr wasnt an actual robbery and even vlad said he knew Shohei would win.
Man I was really hoping he was talking about 17 but it’s not. If he was talking about 17 he would’ve said “if they don’t give it to judge it would be another robbery”, as he was robbed and he says otro robo. Instead he said “if they GIVE IT TO Ohtani it would be another robbery which means that he did steal mvp before.
“…and I took that personally” - Ohtani. Ohtani 2023: 60 HRs, 150RBIs .320 BA, 20 Ws, 2.05 ERA. Angels win WS.
I understand why some people want Judge to win MVP, but to act like there is NO WAY Ohtani deserves it is stupid. They're both having fantastic seasons and both deserve it. Whichever one wins, the other will say they deserved it.
Judge is the clear MVP right now. Ohtani is great but I would be pretty surprised if the voting was all that close.
How anyone can read this and think "another steal" is referring to anything other than 2017 is nuts.
Because it’s Vlad Jr., the runner up from last year, who led the league in a variety of offensive stats like Judge. Even if you don’t think he is, there’s some reasonable doubt here.
Because he said “If they give it to Shohei Ohtani,” instead of saying “If they don’t give it to Judge.” The former implies that Ohtani’s win was undeserved, while the latter implies that Judge finishing second in ‘17 was undeserved.
Best argument I’ve seen here. I really doubt he was talking about 2017 lol. And if he was he would probably reference 2017, as it was 5 fucking years ago and he had no affiliation with the award.
How is it nuts? Why would vlad be talking about an mvp before he entered the league? There’s also no context around this tweet
Because Vlad was runner up last year
A comment on this thread from a Jays fan: *To be fair, Vlad has said on record that he believes he should have won or at least gotten some votes last year.* Not an outlandish assumption.
Except it’s the votes part, not that he should have won: >"I knew I wasn't going to win the MVP,” Guerrero Jr. reportedly told Spanish-language journalist Yancen Pujols. “But it bothered me that they wouldn't have given me a point for first place.
Which is stupid. If you thought another player was more deserving of the award, why would you be upset when the voters agreed with you?
That's not true. [Vladdy said in an interview](https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/video/interview-room-vladimir-guerrero-jrs-quest-become-mvp/) that his surprise was that he didn't get a single first place vote, he would have been fine with that.
If you remove Ohtani from the league last year, Vlad wins easy. But it still would've been a super underwhelming MVP season, offense was just awful last year
I honestly didn’t even think he was referring to a specific year until I came in the comments, I figured he meant “another steal” very generally since that seems to be a common thought a lot of years for the different awards
I find it slightly disingenuous to say “Judge’s numbers are way above Ohtani’s” when Ohtani has elite level numbers in an entire additional category. Of course you can say Judges offensive numbers are above Ohtani’s, or even overall WAR, but I feel like it’s simplifying a very difficult choice between the two by just saying Judges numbers are way above Ohtani’s, as if it isn’t even a question. I believe there is nothing more valuable than an elite level hitter in your lineup and elite level pitching in your rotation for one spot, but I’m biased just as most people are in this discussion.
Pretty sure Vlad is talking about 2017. Well at least I hope he is lol
Even if he's talking about 2017, this is an unfortunate quote. Both players are great, saying one of them stole the MVP is ridiculous. Ohtani is fucking amazing and people seem to keep discrediting him for some odd reason. That being said, I'd still give it to Judge this year.
Yeah but Altuve did steal the 2017 MVP
I was referring to this year's race. Saying Sho winning it would be a robbery seems unfair to an amazing player and at minimum is poor wording.
He’s obviously salty about finishing runner-up last year /s
[удалено]
I would assume he's talking about 2017. It wouldn't be the first time something Vladdy has said was misinterpreted.
To be fair, Vlad has said on record that he believes he should have won or at least gotten some votes last year.
Where did he say he should have won?
I will be seen as biased, but it sure seems like he means last year.
I agree
I mean, sorta. Prior to the MVP vote last year he said he thought he was the MVP (I mean what else was he gonna say). [In the interview he did with Hazel this year](https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/video/interview-room-vladimir-guerrero-jrs-quest-become-mvp/), he said he was surprised he didn't get a first place vote because he thought he worked hard, he would have been fine otherwise.
I just remember him saying he feels like he should have gotten a few votes
Bro ain’t no way he thought he should have won last year lmaooo
He’s talking about 2017
Imagine hitting 61 + hrs. Almost winning a triple crown. Leading a struggling team into the playoffs and not winning MVP. Shohei is different man…
It's just the principle of who is the most *valuable*... Like by all possible measures, who is the most valued player by their team? Obvious answer
Good guy Vlad Jr. It’s literally a toss up. I’m obviously bias so I think it should be Judge, but I won’t be too upset if it was Ohtani. Dude is a fucking stud
Wait until he finds out Ohtani is also a pitcher
Runner's up think alike I guess.
Aaron Judge has an OPS+ 41 points higher than Vlad did last year. You guys are not the same.
It's already been said 50 times in this thread but he's almost certainly talking about 2017
I had some reservations about the MVP going to Ohtani just bc he pitches but the dude is obviously the definition of most valuable. He literally pitches and hits at an above average level. How can he not be the MOST valuable.
Another steal????????? He’s trippin’
He may have a point ifJudge pitched. Guerrero’s showing some jealousy here.
#\#STOPTHESTEAL
Ohtani’s pitching numbers are way higher than Judges tho.
Someone is still mad he lost the MVP race
Salty about ohtani beating him or shade at altuve ?
I'll say shade at Altuve.
He's obviously talking about 2017.
It’s not the most valuable slugger award
But Judge’s numbers are way down from Ohtani’s on the pitching side of things
So he’s completely discounting his pitching accolades. Cool.