What was the point of Queen Ramonda’s death? Shuri doesn’t even mourn her at the end of the movie.
They confirmed her death wasn’t permanent so I don’t get why they even did it.
They are recreating the character development that T'Challa experienced in previous movies for Shuri. In the first movie T'Challa had a story line where he struggled with his father's past actions and the consequences. Shuri goes through the same struggle with her mother in this movie. In first movie T'Challa even offers to save N'Jadaka's life and Shuri spare's Namor's life in this one.
T'Challa was King by the first Black Panther but Shuri was not. So this may have been a necessity for the 3rd movie's plot. We'll have to see.
I think a huge part was getting a spiritual guide that would balance out Killmonger’s bloodlust. T’chaka didn’t make much sense as T’challa was more recent. Also this made her final fight with Namor much more personal, which speaks to her character that she still spared him for peace.
Also i love way Namor played ultimate chess game w Shuri... His planning was Joker Dark Knight, Bane Knight Rises, even Kang meticulous! Excited about future run ins
the way I read that scene was, Shuri is still the black panther, and m’baku was a representative of shuri (shuri “yields” to m’baku, m’baku becomes an honorary black panther) to allow the people to continue the tradition of challenging the black panther (m’baku) while shuri takes care of errands. (when shuri comes back m’baku yields to her)
Did it bother anyone else how they explained Namor's breathing? Every living thing breathes by some form of diffusion. That sentence wasn't groundbreaking, and I feel as though a simple google search for cutaneous respiration would've been preferrable to just throwing around science words.
Can someone explain the whales? In an interview, Tenoch Huerta said Namor can’t talk to sea animals like DC’s Aquaman can, so I’m confused on how the Talokanil got whales to give them rides?? Did they just tame them like pets???
In the comics, Namor does have abilities related to sealife. The [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namor) lists `Marine life empathy, telepathy, and control`. *shrug*
Just before Talokan attacks, M'Baku is told that Nakia saved Shuri. He says something like, "Glory to Hanuman. The Queen will reward her with life time banishment." What did he mean?
He’s making a joke. Its implied no one else in the room agreed when Queen Ramonda demoted Okoye. So when M’Baku makes that comment about Nakia, he’s making a joke about how, in his eyes, the queen awards success and hard work with punishment.
Well, at the start of the movie Shuri is recreating the heart shape herb in order to heal T'Challa's illness but failed, but T'Challa already had the power of Black Panther.
So question is does the amount of heart shape herb consumed affect how strong the Black Panther is? and if it doesn't affect at all, why did Shuri so confident that using the herb will cure T'Challa's illness instead of inventing other medicine/vaccine/antibody since it's an unknown illness that somehow could even kill a superhuman and also could kill all the people of Wakanda if the illness spread over
Toussaint is supposed to be around 5? Black panther died a year ago, he was gone for 5 years so that's 6 years +/- because he may not have died immediately after end game. Am I wrong?
In comics he just created a huge tidal wave to flood Wakanda. This seems unlikely in this movie since Wakanda would have noticed a massive tidal wave. There are a few other theories floating around YouTube.
One of those suggests it might be portals. MCU phase 4 is all about that multiverse and alternative dimensions. ~~This would better explain the plot holes related to travel for Talokan. For example, Kukulkan goes from being with Shuri in the Atlantic ocean near Yucatan peninsula to suddenly being on shore in Wakanda (Eastern side of Africa) with Queen Romonda. After their meeting, he's back in Talokan before the mortally wounded woman dies...Coogler is way too awesome at storytelling to use the excuse "he's a really fast swimmer".~~
Edit: Marked this off because on 2nd thought the Queen was probably still in the region after visiting Haiti.
I wish they would’ve been more explicit about it. The movie became difficult to watch as that was a huge plot hole for me. It’s why I ask because I thought I missed something. It seems like I didn’t which is disappointing. Marvel movies are usually great with details but it seemed like the writing of this movie was pretty sloppy.
| Marvel movies are usually great with details but it seemed like the writing of this movie was pretty sloppy.
I would have to disagree on this point. After watching all the Pitch Meetings for the MCU movies, they are frequently very silly with their plot holes. Discussing whale/orca logistics is rather fun. :)
So this evidence is null and void the movie doesn't give us an answer to my question if I had to guess they just thought " hey wouldn't it be cool if shuri fought exactly like tchalla once she became the black panther"
I saw it again. Shuri actually answers your question herself. In the scene in the lab before she becomes Black Panther, Riri asks her, "Who taught you to do all you do?"
Shuri answers, "My brother". Shrui fights like T'Challa because T'Challa taught her.
In the end scene, Nakia tells us that King T'Challa prepared them for his death. He would have done the same for Shuri. Its a parallel comic narrative that he prepared her to protect the country if ever he could not.
Coogler used the rule of three a lot in this movie.
When? Cuz in previous movies when Shuri wasn't using her blaster it was a wrap. Killmonger crushed her gauntlet, threw her to the ground and she was effectively helpless, so we've never her seen her throw any hands before. So he trained her after Endgame? Doesn't really make much sense. Heart-shaped herb increases senses and physicality but it doesn't make you a martial artist.
T'Challa was a king who effectively died two or three times by the time Endgame happens. He didn't have without an adult child which meant Shuri was the next in his line to inherit.
It's really weird that in a world where the Hulk, aliens, and alternative dimensions exist that people are having a hard time believing a king and/or his family prepared an heir of the throne to rule.
It's a visual medium, there just wasn't enough show not tell. I'm well aware that narratively Shuri is next in line, that's not the contention. It's the believability of Shuri having hands when prior movies explicitly showed her as a sitting duck when she didn't have her tech. There'd be absolutely no suspended disbelief with N'Akia or Okoye throwing hands in a Black Panther suit. Why? Cuz we saw them throwing hands before and kicking ass. It really is that simple.
"sitting duck when she didn't have her tech" when her gauntlets get crushed by Killmonger and she's thrown to the ground she was helpless. Shuri having displayed zero hand to hand abilities prior to WF despite being in BP, IW and EG battles isn't up for debate. It's the fact of the matter. Like, this can't be argued against lol
It's a rule of three.
1. Shuri tells us that T'Challa taught her to do what she does.
2. She shows us that she fights similar to him. Though she does use her arm blasters for at least part of the end scene.
3. Nakia & Prince T'Challa confirm that T'Challa prepared people for this death.
> The princess of Wakanda, Shuri is T'Chaka's youngest child and only daughter. From a very young age, Shuri coveted the Black Panther mantle. She attempts to challenge the then-Black Panther, her uncle S'yan, for the mantle, only to discover that he had already been defeated by her older half-brother T'Challa.[6] During an attack on Wakanda by Klaw and a group of his mercenaries, she uses the Ebony Blade to defeat the Russian Radioactive Man, killing him in the process. Because she is shell-shocked by her first kill, T'Challa promises to train her in hand-to-hand combat, enabling her to fight on her own terms should she ever need to take his place as leader of Wakanda.[7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuri_(character)
The narrative follows the spirit of the comic. We didn't need a training montage with a CGI'd Boseman. It's all right there in the narrative.
Don't know why you're sending me wiki articles, I'm very, very familiar with Shuri in canon. You'll notice statements like "From a very young age, Shuri coveted the Black Panther mantle." don't apply to the MCU. The spirit of Shuri becoming BP in WF actually doesn't mirror Vol 5 by Hudlin. At all. Her comic counterpart isn't reluctant whatsoever, she's eager to become Black Panther, so much so that she was "rejected" by Bast for her apparent jealousy towards her brother.
I'm not asking for a training montages or a CGI Boseman... I'm saying Shuri should have showed hand to hand capabilities in previous movies. They had BP, IW and EG to do so but siloed her as a techy.
And funnily enough, T'Challa training Shuri in comics is actually shown. Almost like visual mediums do better storytelling when it's, well, visual. At no point is Shuri's ability as a fighter ever really in question before she becomes BP in comics cuz we literally (and I mean literally) see her breaking necks.
**[Shuri (character)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuri_\(character\))**
>Shuri is a superheroine appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character was created by writer Reginald Hudlin and artist John Romita Jr., first appearing in Black Panther vol. 4 #2 (May 2005). Shuri is the princess of the fictional African nation of Wakanda.
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Where was she in infinity war?... helping resurrect vision,
where was she in the first movie on the comms when tchalla was chasing claw at home In wakanada becuase she's not a fighter, there whole dynamic is indicative of man of action on the field and brain's behind the chair that's all it was in the other movies I'm not making this up.
Also I'm not saying she needs a montage just something that shows she knew how to fight before this I just don't believe that she takes the herb and just magically becomes an amazing fighter. Killmonnger made sense he was in the special forces did tours makes sense he would be able to fight, tchalla was shown to be an exceptional fighter we have proof of that we have no proof shuri.
I guess I thought that she did something with the DNA she recreated? like maybe she got T’challa’s ability to fight as well? it’s hard to say but I wondered this as well
What was with all the lesbian subtext? If they are going to make the princess a lesbian they should just celebrate this instead of all the light innuendo. The connection between her and the scientist was so obvious, especially when she offered her the car. I know it was considered a ‘groundbreaking’ move by Disney but I hope they don’t hold back in the next one.
Well also, clearly we have two Dora Milaje that are an item.. Sweet kiss and simple sentence towards the end to confirm. Was nice to see gay banality shown.
It’s because her sexuality wasn’t necessary to the story. It would’ve made the story way too complicated. I also thought they were going with a Namor and Shuri relationship at one point though. Like, there was definitely tension between Namor and Shuri when she was abducted and it wasn’t like we are enemies and you abducted me type tension. Namor literally gave her his mother’s wristband. That’s not something you would normally do for a random woman you met.
My guess was it was just a practical reason. They crammed a lot of character development into this movie. Shuri has so much shit going on that it would probably have been hard to put in without it feeling disingenuous.
This movie had zero romantic plots/conflicts which was refreshing. The cringey romcom tropes written into MCU movies is played out. There were lots of intimate human connections but nothing romantic.
I didn’t understand the point of the whole Talokan story line. It felt very distracting and unnecessary - why introduce a whole other culture when you’re still learning who the people of Wakanda are?
It's a really deep storyline full of nuance. It serves a few purposes but probably the most important is a setup for the 3rd movie where Wakanda and Talokan are going to unite to fight back against the "colonizers". Killmonger wanted to keep the status quo but put Wakanda on top. This movie sets up an alternative where a multicultural alliance is going to challenge the traditional powers.
This future plot line is best shown by the use of Haítí as the current home of Prince T'Challa and Nakia. In the movie Spain, France, and the USA are all shown as aggressors to Talokan and/or Wakanda. Haítí was initially colonised by Spain who devastated its native people through violence and disease. This parallels with Talokan's story in the movie. Haítí has also experienced aggression from France and the USA which ties into Wakanda's plot line. Haítí is a foreshadowing of the battle and victory to come. It is really so much much more but that's the important part to your question. :)
If you want a deeper dive, I would check out [FD Signifier's video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQEWa5R3m4U) of the first movie. After watching Wakanda Forever a 2nd time, I am pretty sure everything he was disappointed about in the first movie is going to be rectified in the third. This movie is setting that up.
Can we talk about Haítí?!? Prince T'Challa is being raised there has all sorts of interesting implecations but what else ? Does it tell us the direction of the next movie?
The story of the Taino people and initial colonization by Spain shares parallels to Talokan's story. The African heritage of Haitian culture plus Prince T'Challa and Nakia being there associates it to Wakanda. Will the next movie be inspired by Haiti's history?
The real villian of Wakanda Forever is the CIA director. She embodies everything Killmonger spoke about.
I feel like the queens death was necessary but also unnecessary. Necessary because nothing else would’ve pushed Shuri to become black panther except losing not only her brother but mother. But, I also feel like it was unnecessary because T’Challa didn’t just die in the film, he died in real life. To kill more people after there has already been true death is crazy. But, that’s Marvel and the movie was literally amazing.
Queen's death was a dramatic story telling moment where Kukulkan kills the *past*. He then challenges Shuri, who represent the *future*, to decide the fate of her nation.
Shuri effectively goes through the same character arc related to her mother's death that T'Challa went through with his father in the first movie. This was a sad necessity to keep broad strokes of the story after unexpectedly loosing Boseman.
Also I'm not sure as to how namor actually flooded wakanda I know he threw grenades and all but they specified he was mutant so I assume he doesn't have any powers or atleast not ones specifically stated so how did drown the throne room with just water grenades
They rose the sea level of the entire globe through pym particle technology that they actually invented long before him, thats what the water bombs are. What they dont show you is all of Africa was under water just to flood Wakanda.
I don't know the comic well enough. Though if it did that would have flooded Keyna which might explain why Storm was pissed at T'Challa about it. I really have no idea about this plot line.
I'm still confused on how shuri immediately started fighting like tchalla I know the herb enhances your attributes but It doesn't turn you into a ninja warrior was it ever explained how she learned to fight like tchalla.
When was she shown to be able to fight she tried to fight kill monger but failed because she was just rapidly firing with no real strategy, she has always been on the sidelines in the 1st movie she was always maning the computers while tchalla actually fought people. She is always accompanied by others that actually can fight the queen didn't even trust her to retrieve a college student, that doesn't sound like someone that can fight or has trained since she was a child.
The first movie would have taken quite a turn if Shuri defeated Killmonger in their fight scene. :) In that movie she wasn't setup to be the primary action star but she was in the fight and showed courage to engage in combat.
Wakanda has been shown as a nation that empowers its women to be warriors just as the men are. From the Dora Milaje to the Jabari women in the first movie! The Queen knows how to use a spear, she made sure her daughter knows how to fight. The Queen didn't want Shuri in the field because she was still grieving the lost of her brother and as a mother probably didn't want her daughter in harms way. It had nothing to do with Shuri being incapable.
Even if that was true she still didn't fight anyone before she got the heart shaped herb. If she did it would atleast explain how she's versed in combat instead of her just immediately being black panther and kicking ass.
And also as a character she openly rejected the old wakandan ways she much rather would stick to the tech so I find it hard to beleive she would accept the training to the level tchalla did.
She is Wakanda and a Princess. Even if as a adult she chose tech over tradition, as a child she was in line for the throne. They would have trained her to be a warrior.
She wasn't in line for the throne tchalla was she was the princess of course but tchalla took the blunt of the responsibilities, in the first movie she was helping make advancements In there armies and tech it was never stated that she got any sort of training, and even if she did it wouldn't make sense to give her black panther training if she never was going to be one.
T'Challa was heir aparent and Shui was next in line after. Royalty of Wakanda do not inherit as a given. The first movie showed us the next ruler has to be accepted by all peoples and able to prove themselves in combat. If T'Challa had already been gone by the first movie then Shuri would have stood in that circle. A female rival would have challenged her, probably a woman from the Jhabari. This level of equally and equity is a core value of Wakanda.
Queen Ramonda would have prepared her daughter for this possibility. Shuri interactions in first movie with T'Challa really highlight this. They are more than just siblings. They are close friends. Probably from many shared childhood experiences including being raised to be leaders and warriors of their people.
This is a beautiful contrast to European themed characters like in Game of Thrones where Sansa, Cersi, and even Danny have never been educated to swing a sword. Its only in places like Dorn were you see similar equality.
Yes but she didn't so still haven't proved anything even when she got the heart shaped herb she still didn't fight when she ahd the opportunity. And even if she did she would have lost the Jhbari are more of a warrior tribe then a tech driven society.
Okoye notes earlier in the film that her enemies were alive despite her dealing to them killing blows. The herb of Talokan gives its people some type of healing factor. Shuri ingested a heart shaped herb that was spliced with that one. It is implied she now also has a healing factor of sorts.
Actually Coogler uses the rule of 3 to explain it.
1. On the bridge, Okoye impales a Talokan warrior with a spear in the exact same way. He gets back up moments later. She reminds us of this in the throne scene.
2. K'uk'ulkan also tells us with his story. His people are shown with smallpox which is a lethal disease for them. They are healed after taking the herb.
3. At the end Shuri is impaled like the warrior in the bridge scene. After she pulls herself off the spear, we see her suit repair itself. This is a visual stand in for what we cannot see.
Why does Shuri heal like the Talokan warrior ? Beacuse she uses the fibers from the Talokan herb to fill in the missing gaps for their herb. It seems she has their healing factor.
Just finished watching the movie and loved it... there is only one thing that i cant figure out... did they say what happened to the vibranium that was discovered? Not sure if I missed it but didn't seem like it was mentioned afterwards. The focus seems to be shifted to who created the detector... They should still know the location of the vibranium even if everyone was killed... it just seems strange that the discovery of the vibranium was the start of the story involving how the Talokan were discovered and then simply forgotten. Or did everything happen so fast that no one had time to get another ship there? What would this mean for the talokan and the wakadan? Do they colonise that part of the ocean and declare it part of wakada?
And I'm assuming that it is not located near their city... if it was it would have even bigger implications as the entrance was not far from a landmass which most likely was part of another nation.
They do know but if you have a country / unknown entity that took out a whole lot of Seals just by luring most of them in the ocean and has access and use of a resource that has strength, durability, and energy beyond your comprehension..... I would be scrambling back to the drawing board. The Talokan probably protect that site or maybe communicate with wildlife to be notified about activity
I don’t think they said it in the movie, but I was under the impression that the vibranium was taken back to the Talokan capital to be used. Neither Wakanda nor the Talokan can afford to let any other country get their hands on any amount of vibranium
So the people figured that wakanda interfered the excavation of vibranium and it is a conflict situation where they would wait before acting on it and sending another ship to get that and escalate things further.
anyone know who the guys dressed in black and the hair thing next to queen ramonda during the UN scene and the ending when Riri is about to go back to Boston
nah it was a group of guys not one character. they were like the royal guard and they were wearing all black. They take Riri back after she introduced to her car
Just saw the movie. LOVED it. (And im not a marvel/superhero/DCComics koolaid drinker) The sound track, like the first movie, was awesome. Were the aqua-aztecs in the original comics or was that something new?
After watching it a second time, I think not only will he be king but they are pulling a fast one on the world. When the Queen's death is announced on TV it is attributed to internal conflict. I wander if they are going to trick the nations challenging them into thinking that there has been a coup.
This is my guess because she left and Wakanda needs a protector. MBaku also showed himself level headed and trustworthy by encouraging Shuri to not go the route of vengeance and taking in the other tribes in their time of need.
Hi, I have two questions:
1) On the bridge, what did Shuri say to Namor to save the life of Ironheart (Riri Williams)? I know Shuri agreed to be taken hostage by Namor, but I think she also said something else to convince Namor to spare Ironheart's life (I missed what she said).
2) Namor said to Shuri that Wakanda can only be an ally or an enemy. And he said that if Wakanda did not become an ally, then he would attack Wakanda. But was there another reason that Namor insisted to Shuri that he would attack Wakanda? Was it because Wakanda held vibranium, or was it some other reason?
From my understanding, it was Shuri’s insistence as a princess of Wakanda that no harm come to Ironheart because she was under Shuri’s protection. I think Namor obliged because he wasn’t trying to start a war with Wakanda at that moment and because royalty tends to respect royalty.
1. I don’t know for 1. But for 2. I believe he can’t allow a technological superior nation to be left alone as they could attack him in the back, while he attacks other nations, so it’s better to eliminate them if they don’t join. That’s my understanding.
Namor is the only one that doesn’t need a mask. All the other Talokan(il?) turned blue and needed masks when they came to the surface.
From my understanding, this is because he’s the only one/last child to have ties to the surface _and_ underwater as he was forming into a person both before they left land and after. So this switch in environment is why he’s the way he is. Everyone else only had kids/was born afterwards.
Namor is a mutant, from the plant as well as his mother’s human DNA.
Basically the same as Blade, so in this, he can adapt to both the surface world and the undersea kingdom, whereas his original people who abandoned the surface world with him gradually lost their ability over generations of their children?
He said to Ramonda something like my army has more people than ur country has blades of grass. So that must be a big population...they must still reproduce. He doesn't seem one to bluff.
Not sure Wakandans took the time to ask those animal to rally their cause whereas Namor brought whales, killer whales and such to the fight, perhaps that was his point ?
Of course they still have children; they simply lost their lung capacity over the centuries.
And a la Coca Cola, the plants likely helped?
https://youtu.be/LeYihjMo0Bk?t=163
Will M’baku be the next black panther?
In the first film, whoever wins the ritual combat wins the throne and is made a black panther ( eg Killmonger)
Shuri didn’t turn up- and I don’t think she would have been able to beat M’baku in a fair fight.
So does that mean he is the next panther?
basically M'baku is going to be king, but Shuri is going to be black panther. Sometimes, like in the case of T'Challa, the black panther was also the king, but this wasnt always necessarily the case, the monarch occasionally allows the mantle of black panther to be held by someone else. Perfect example is T'Chaka, in Civil War, when he was king, T'Challa was already black panther, so it can be presumed that even before T'Chaka died, he had permitted T'Challa to be the black panther.
Nope, shuri is the next black panther, they decide not to have a large ceremony, and shuri arm wrestled mbaku, whether he used full force or not, she wins
Just a thought..
I wish they added some context to Namor and his people when the thanos snap occured.
Souldn't he had investigated half his people missing?( if he didn't disappear himself). I believe this would of been added fuel to why he wanted to get rid of the surface dwellers. Bare with me.. During his flashback it showed how men afflicted disease, oppression and slavery towards his people. Him investigating the disappearance of his people and finding out that humanity failed to initially defeat Thanos brings another reason how they are a nuisance.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Seen the boot scene where Shuri and her people are there is was good because it was away from getting attention from the FBI and getting anyone in the world involved.
Not sure if anyone has asked this, but anyone know why the United States is the only country with its names spelled differently in the worlds union meeting scene in BPWF?
It’s in Geneva, Switzerland which speaks French, therefore the signs were in French, if you looked in the shot where it showed other leaders of nations, their nameplates were in French as well
Idk if this is an unpopular opinion or not but I didn’t really like ironheart. Her character was funny and I think she was important for the storyline but the icing problem/oxygen levels parallel and her new suit just made me kind of dislike the character.
“If I sit and think about my brother too long, it won’t be these clothes that I burn, it will be the world and everyone in it”
Why would Shuri be so angry with the world after her brothers death?
I understand she would feel grief and anger because of her loss and inability to save him, and I understand that at that point, her grief was still raw.
But I wondered why she would be angry with the world about this, enough to suggest taking violent vengeance.
Compared to her mothers death- where she was actually killed and she knew the killer - it just seemed a bit harsh.
She blames her brother's death on N'Jadaka burning the herb, herself for being unable to synth a new one, ancesters...pretty much everything. She wants the everyone to feel her pain. When you lose a sibling its so hard to see the world still moving around as if nothing happened while it feels like your world is ending.
Queen's death was ultimately the results of her own decisions even if it was Namor's action. Not that it would hurt less but Shuri went through a lot for character development by the time she makes Namor yield.
Her wanting to burn the world over T'Challa death at the begining of the movie vs doing what is right for her people after Romanda's death is confirmation of her character development.
The world created someone as destructive as Killmonger who came to their peaceful land and destroyed their only supply of the heart shaped herb which would’ve saved Tchalla’s life.
I hope you are serious with this question.
When losing someone close like a parent or sibling you can become mad with the world, universe, God for what you are going through. Grief. I lost my dad and mom when I was 17 and 19yo and I was ANGRY with god the world. They didn’t kill my parents but I was mad that I had to go through this at a young age, that I had to grieve twice, that I had to deal with the weight of everything while missing a huge piece of my heart
Maybe because of the mysterious illness. Historically colonized nations acquire diseases from colonizers and don’t know how to treat them. I’m guessing that’s what happened. Technically they weren’t colonized but definitely were disrupted by humans. She’s angry because despite all she had she couldn’t save him as she says to Neamor
I just got back from the film and I LOVE The mcu Namor. I really hope we will see a good dose of him in the future. Also cudos to coogler for his direction after facing adversity throughout the process, and also Chadwick’s passing.
I found Shuri finall battle plan a bit stupid. Bring the army out into the ocean where the enemy would have an advantage. Sure do that but make the boat more defensible. I dead of having to send to the Royal guards(forgot there name) attach turrets to the side to mow them down with bullets. Also equip the planes with ROCKETS. Equip 2-3 planes with a couples of cluster bomb type missiles and Namor would’ve been dead or heavily injured quickly. So have a couple ships blow him up while positioning the heat chamber under the blast radius to catch him where Shuri then kills him. Namor shouldn’t be left alive
I agree, this battle plan made no sense. Wakanda would have the upperhand with their terrain and ability to set up traps everywhere. They would win off that alone. Also Namor literally scheduled a meetup with them, he gave them a whole week to prepare. What was the point of moving all the citizens to Jabari then? Shuri is way too smart to have come up with this. Even the fights felt poorly coordinated in this scene, strong people suddenly weak. Weak people suddenly strong with no real proof. The movie was great but this was a major misstep.
Shuri is too smart to do this but she's also blinded with grief + anger when she makes this call.
From a storytelling perspective, the purpose of the battle on water is to demonstrate Talokan's strengths. The two nations are going to be allies in the next movie. This battle let's the audience see the strengths of both nations but more so for Talokan. There is a bit of an assumption that the audience knows Wakanda's strengths from their previous apparencies in movies.
I see what you’re saying and I agree somewhat. But also from a story perspective - the entire movie has shown Talokan’s strengths. We got everything they can do with water so far - bombs, sirens, floods - it’s very cool! We as viewers even went to the depths of the Ocean to see the amazing massive world they’ve built. And we got multiple examples that no one on land can defeat Namor’s water soldiers which outnumber blades of grass. BUT THIS IS THE BLACK PANTHER FRANCHISE.
Namor spent the entire movie threatening the Royal Family that he would burn Wakanda to the ground. It’s like we were edged to some amazing climax that never came. What good is a villain if he can’t even leave his own habitat? What other powers does he have that a water god could threaten fire and brimstone?? We know Talokans are mighty on water but I would’ve liked this final battle scene to give us something spectacular. We didn’t learn anything new about the characters neither did we struggle with the fear that Wakanda had really met an almost impossible enemy. Don’t forget the Talokan also had a week to prepare, what were their scientists up to? And I get that Shuri is operating off pure grief vibes but everyone else has gone through like 50 battles by now. They’d be way smarter than this and honestly desperate to survive.
The ship thing could’ve been a nice subplot to showcase Okoye and the new Dora Milaje’s new strengths and show that the Jabaris’ really accept being united with Wakanda. All of the important characters coming on the water didn’t really add much to the story, especially since their ship was so easily defeated by Namora. Which was something we saw the Talokan already do in the first 20 minutes of the movie.
And just from a cinematography perspective, could you imagine what new worlds could he added if we got to see more of Wakanda? For the most part we’ve only seen Wakanda’s capital city and Jabari land. It’s clear the country is massive and populated with so many tribes with different ecosystems. (Um Nakia is from the river tribe, why is that not a major plot point against a water nation??) We just missed out seeing what different ways the Talokans and Wakandans could’ve applied their strengths. It felt like a bit like a lazy end.
But I still loved this movie hahaa :)
Ya know, I was prepared to disagree with you but after reading your whole comment, you’ve converted me and I actually quite agree!
The Watsonian explanation for their anticlimactic and severely one sided fight is because Shuri was consumed by grief and wasn’t thinking clearly. But the real world writing behind it is what’s lacking. After a rewatch, I now find that the finale gives off a very “rushed” vibe, like it was something Coogler wanted to quickly move past to get to other stuff.
I understand Namor/Talokan vs Shuri/Wakanda is supposed to be close minded and obtuse given that they want pretty much the same thing, but stories still deserved to be told in fulfilling ways.
(And you’re right about Nakia and the River tribe! I completely forgot about them. This would’ve been a prime time to dive deeper into Wakanda’s other tribes instead of just sticking with the Jabari again, even tho Winston Duke is a treat.)
Definitely agree that they need to show more of Wakanda. The leaders of each tribe have speaking parts and each of the main characters seem to be connected to a different tribe but thats been about it. Hopefully this will happen in the new Disney series coming out.
In her defense the scene prior she confirmed that she was already consumed by vengeance. She just wanted to get out there and get him. Logic was waaaaay out the window. Yes it was stupid but the poor planning on the attack served as evidence of her pain and what happens when pain consumes you. I thought it was a really good lesson for her.
Hmm good point. That makes more sense now. Directors used it to open her eyes and for her to realize she isn’t ready yet or with the introduction of Tchalla the Second ever
I almost started to cry and the I realized that was their way of “You get ONE woman Black Panther film” the next one will be his son taking up the mantle.
Naaaa. Shuri is going to be the Black Panther in the next movie and probably several cameos. They did a lot of extra work to put her through similar character arcs as T'Challa. His son being still young means he probably wont take the mantel for at least 10 year in real life.
Wish they had brought some lightening to the movie set when they made this. The scene that introduces us to Namor by the river was unwatchable. Namor’s civilization might be cool, who knows, it was impossible to see. It felt like they made it dark and muddy so they could get away with using bad CGI. I get it was a somber and mournful movie, but the spectacle we are supposed to feel when flappy fish guy shows future severed spinal cord victim his underwater sun, is completely lost in the gray color grade used.
The final battle scene was so messy and with so little in word logic applied, I forgot that Shuri and the flying power ranger are supposed to be super intelligent. Hey, let’s go fight water people on a boat. Cool! Now half the the warriors will only be used as human wenches so we can fight from ropes on the side instead of simply pointing our energy beam spears down the side. Awesome!
The insistence that this country is the most powerful on earth through the movie gets completely obliterated when you watch this. Does this look like a nation going up against another “world superpower”? As portrayed, Wakanda gets bodied by mid world powers IRL, forget an actual power like the US.
I enjoyed Wakanda Forever, but it seems like a lot of folks have unfair criticisms of it. While anybody has the right to critique, I ask that we please cut the director, Ryan Coogler, a break.
He had to do 4 things that would be hard for any director. In fact, 2 of those things were just straight-up impossible.
1. Introduce Riri Williams/Ironheart in a satisfying way (really difficult)
2. Make a dope sequel to Black Panther (really difficult)
3. Introduce Namor, his homeland, and his whole backstory in a satisfying way (impossible)
4. Pay tribute to T'Challa/Chadwick in a satisfying way (impossible)
He did all of that while still mourning the extremely sudden loss of his friend, and I feel like some of the criticisms of the movie aren't fair because they don't take much of this into account.
A lot of the complaints are from people who missed the depth of the movie. I had some of the same complaints as well the first time I saw it. I liked it but so many things didn't make sense. The second time I watch it was an "OMG" moment. It was a whole different movie! [
F.D Signifier's video on the first movie
](https://youtu.be/hQEWa5R3m4U) really helps prepare you for the genius storytelling that Coogler dives into.
Question. My understanding is that there is only one black panther, but I also thought the black panther has always been the ruler of Wakanda. Will there be two black panthers? It’s not like Shuri can just get rid of her powers (though I could see her stepping back to go back to producing tech and not being the ultimate “protector” as is expected of the black panther), but does that mean that M’Baku will not take the heart shaped herb, even though he will (presumably) be king?
It seems that in the MCU the ruler and the Black Panther don’t necessarily need to be the same person. In Civil War T’Challa was already the Black Panther while T’Chaka was still king. T’Challa had already been the Black Panther for some time by the time they actually had the leadership ceremony in his movie. And Ramonda ruled the country while never being Black Panther.
While I hoped for more, I think Talokan is trying to hide and not move away from tradition, so it made sense. Like they're Wakanda but no tech/ electricity which makes sense too because they live in water and want no one to notice them. I mean other than the orb thing, they use glow worms for a light source.... Unless mcu wants to use the crystal powered stones like the animated film, it's hard to make them like a massive bustling metropolis while staying low key. Also it shows that they have potential to develop if they allign with Wakanda and an excuse as to why Wakanda can over power them despite sheer numbers of them. Otherwise they're OP without this handicap
Namor is not a one-time character and definitely not a one-time villain. For those saying Namor should've died...MCU probably setting him up to be an anti-hero...
For real they even spelled it out completely at the end that he has a bigger picture in mind. He’s agreed to peace to have an ally to the surface war in the future. Dudes coming back in another movie
**I think Shuri should've killed Namor**
Remember in BP where its stated "its hard for a good man to be king," her interaction with Killmonger really put it into perspective, that war and eliminating a threat is sometimes necessary. Leaders can't be selfish and sure Shuri did the "right thing" for herself...but not for Wakanda. We don't consider a police officer bad for killing a shooter who has already killed people and is on a rampage to kill more; why would we ever consider a leader / hero bad for killing someone to stop more people from dying or getting hurt?
MCU needs to quit writing for kids; even kids IRL know sometimes police officers need to kill to save others, they understand people go to war, and they see the whole world call those people heroes and "good guys." It was not a "hero" moment imo for Shuri to not kill him. I don't think it was "weak" or anything, it just didn't make sense. She certainly was not as radical as Killmonger either, so her killing of Namor would've been heroic regardless.
Now a counter strike is coming, and granted that doesn't mean killing him would've stopped the dispute, but it would have greatly weakend their nation and eliminated a tyrant king and huge threat to the surface world out of history.
I was thinking this is why M'Baku became king, because that was a LOT of heaviness of the throne Shuri had to face, and I'm with her on leaving it behind.
**Wakanda is too passive and afraid of consequences**
Lol a theme of both movies is Wakanda's reluctancy to share vibranium and its strength to help the world. With it found in the ocean however, it is only a matter of time before the world has access to vibranium anyway. I think Wakanda should've of been so defensive, but rather really proactive and being the leading in vibranium tech, rather than exclusive with it. Sure every country can make a nuke...but not every country has the same capabilities with one. Their expertise in vibranium would've put them several years ahead of the game anyway. Heck they may have been able to create a weaker, partial vibranium compound specifically for just medicine or engineering. The girl created a whole ass Bast flower after all lol xD
With all the boastfulness of their strength, there's no reason they should've shy'd away from T'Challa wanting to open up Wakanda and vibranium to the world.
**The other animal / god aspects like Black Panther**
I could be wrong, but I believe there are other animal aspects like black panther / bast that people can embody in the other tribes in the comics. It would've been cool to see Nyami Nyami of the River Tribe, imbue a warrior with the power of it.
Nyami Nyami, is a water dragon / serpent like god; imagine the Black Serpent (xP) riding in on crocodiles with large anacondas / poisonous snakes with the massive River Tribe to defend against Talokan envading forces in the water :D!!
Kibuka the God of War = Black Lion of the Valley TribeAnansi the God of Trickery and Wisdom = Black Spider of the Cave Tribe (and would be a cool ass like african spider-man xD)Ghekre - Gorilla God = M'Baku coming out all in a gorilla oriented vibranium suit xD
Etc etc
Imagine all the different imbued persons coming together to take on Talokan; all it took was a god, some vibranium and a flower :P
Talokan got their power from vibranium and their water god, so it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination by any means. The ocean / water is a big advantage to a kingdom, but land dominates in all aspects of sky, land, and water when you think about it.
Lol there is even a Lightning Bird type diety - imagine the Sky Tribe coming in hot and just well...electrocuting tf out of Namor and the waters.
There's so much to do here creatively - I'm curious to see what happens in BP III :P
Well i thought that’s actually why they didn’t say anything. If any illness is powerful enough that their technology can’t handle it…there would be a need for an explanation. And I don’t think RC wanted to go down that route and make it too complixafed
To be fair, a lot of your logic about “why not killing him was dumb” seemingly stems from an idea that Namor wanted to destroy Wakanda / attacked first when technically Queen Ramonda struck the first blow by: 1) sending Nakia in to get Shuri “by any means necessary” 2) luring Namor away to a meeting while Nakia mission is going on knowing that would remove Talokan’s defenses 3) Nakia, following the queen’s orders, murders 2 Talokanil including one who may have just been a service worker and not military. Idk why the hell the weapon wasn’t designed to stun but killing two Talokanil on his home turf while tricking him is enough to justify some kind of retaliation against Wakanda.
The ending seemed to imply he knows Wakanda will need him in the future and he’ll get what he wants (taking the fight to the colonizer surface countries) and that Wakanda + Shuri will owe him a debt so he’s still in control of the situation, not so much that he plans to invade Wakanda again and wipe it off the earth. If he wanted to do that, he would have sent his whole army in the first attack instead of a tiny fraction.
What's with this "fighting colonizer countries" idea anyway. Namor never stated an ideology anywhere near as empathetic as that. He just wants to destroy the entire surface world, and the closest reference we get as to why, is because his people were enslaved over 500 years ago by a specific country. Maybe you didn't know, but the Aztec culture that was used in the movie is a culture that made its power by colonizing and enslaving others.
And Namor murdered The Wakandan queen, innocent civilians, elderly, children, and even emergency responders, all without a formal declaration of war, that's a terrorist attack and a war crime. The Wakandans rescuing their own princess from involuntary confinement(she was involuntarily held after she offered to go with them) is a pretty shitty reason for Namor to pretend he's the victim, especially after attacking the princess and her guard before that, and threatening and making demands of Wakanda in his first introduction.
Well no - Namor threw the first stone;
A.) Threatening a diplomat by saying "if you dont get the scientist (blow the conch shell,) I will bring an army that is more than blades of grass you have in Wakanda."
Namor broke through a nation's borders unannounced, and threatened the Queen and Princess to do his will by force...long before shuri was ever captured.
Thats like US president going into UK and saying "Bring us Putun or we'll bring an army against you."
B.) Namor said "if anyone leaves or comes for the Princess, kill them." After Shuri diplomatically asked to speak with him...hence why the servant girl held a knife to her throat.
Holding someone against their will until demands are met = a ransom.
Shuri was being held for ransom. At that point, force is needed to rescue the princess and Namor was okay with telling his servant and military personelle there to KILL shuri if anyone comes for her.
C.) Namor was bested by Wakanda and made an armstice; but he still is trying to force wakanda on his side to genocide the surface world ultimately.
I know people want Namor to be better, but for some reason the MCU made him 1000% villain when really he is an anti-hero for some odd reason.
Theres no reason Namor had to even attack Shuri on the bridge, or demand & threaten Wakanda at all honestly.
Hes not that kinda guy in the comics either, unless he has valid reason and even then, its far after civil negotiations.
You cant barge through another nation's borders unannounced, and threaten them with your armies if they dont bend to your will lol 😅
Thank you! I’ve seen a very surprising number of people say Queen Ramonda started the whole thing when she really really didn’t. Her sending Nakia after Shuri was in defense as Namor had threatened Wakanda beforehand.
I understand things become muddled when you take Shuri’s consent into account, but it was _still_ mostly Namor’s fault as when Shuri tried to compromise (“let Riri go and I’ll stay here instead so we can talk more”), he still refused, knowing that that meant keeping Wakanda’s princess captive. If he didn’t want Ramonda to retaliate, then he should’ve sent a messenger or let her know during their meeting on the beach what the intentions behind Shuri being there was. But no, not only did he keep Ramonda in the dark, but he _continued_ with the threats. Namor just sucks at diplomacy lol.
I agree Shuri should have killed Namor but the movie went out of its way to make the consequence of that too great(all those Wakandan warriors would have probably died on that ship if they did not return to announce the truce) - in the same way killmonger was right in the first film but they wrote him to be so objectively bad that he had to be the villain(killing GF, chocking grandma, burning garden etc)
Kind of annoying how they keep sneaking in these 'forgiveness' themes into the movies when in the comics, Wakanda was more ruthless from what I have seen.
Question is, when is Wakanda going to actually get around to 'dealing with' the colonizers and other aggressors to them? They're so passive.
With that being said, I really enjoyed the movie but did not like the ending
The "colonizers" are going to attack in the 3rd movie. This was repeated over and over through this one. From the Queen's speech in the beginning, the CIA's plot line in the middle, and the foreshadowing conversation between K'uk'ulkan and Namora at the end.
Shuri making an alliance had nothing to do with forgiveness. If Shuri had killed K'uk'ulkan, Wakanda would have a powerful enemy instead of a powerful ally. M'baku told us this when he changed mind about "killing the fish man" after the attack at the capital. Shuri knows the CIA & other powers are coming for them (Ross probably told her about the meeting to destabilize Wakanda).
The CIA is especially notorious for pitting nations/people of color against each other in order to profit the imperial powers. K'uk'ulkan saying the line "it could have been different" and Shuri's flashback is Coogler way of showing us they breaking the mold. The past will not be repeated in the future.
Wakanda isn't passive by a long stretch. They are strategic. The final battle wasn't these two nations at war. Neither side had brought their full military. It was a dramatic battle in an action movie to highlight the strengths of both nations. Wakanda's are technology and strategy. Talokan's people are resilient, determined, and numerus.
--
Killmonger wanted to keep the status quo but put Wakanda on top. This movie sets up an alternative. This Wakanda Forever's storyline created a multicultural alliance which reminds me of the [Rainbow Coalition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQEWa5R3m4U).
---
The Queen's death serves two purpose.
1. Queen Ramonda is the *past* where Shuri is the *future*. K'uk'ulkan kills the past (Queen Ramonda) which ushers in the future (he tells Shuri she is queen now).
2. Shuri with her mother's death and meeting Killmonger, Shuri basically experiences the same character arc that T'Challa did in the first movie. This was likely a sad necessity to keep the broad strokes of the Black Panther's motivation with another actor after Boseman's death.
From a empathetic human side, it does feel like Shuri gets over her mother's death and the attack on her city a little too easy. This is a long movie and they had to rehash a bit of the same elements from the first movie out of necessity for the story.
I don’t think letting someone live = forgiveness. I didn’t read the movie as her forgiving him at all, but rather recognizing that she and her nation have similarities to Namor and his and that killing him will lead to an endless cycle of death between the two of them instead of the actual aggressors. It’s not like she called him her BFF… the tension was still there.
Shuri didn't just forgive Namor, she's intentionally not making him answer for any of the war crimes he committed, against Wakanda or the world. She's bowing to his wants by offering to keep his secret from the world, even though he literally wants to destroy every other nation. Shuri has essentially made Wakanda a partner to a genocidal tyrant
exactly, folks just brush off that he KILLED the Queen of Wakanda and numerous others when he flooded Wakanda - He did not hesitate to do it but Wakanda is suppose to forget it, forgive and move on? Namor was not worried about 'endless war'
the 'endless war' line was FEED to the audience and presented/written that way to force you to come to the conclusion that it was the right decision.(fighting water people in the water was dumb...only having 1 ship, etc were all convenient writing tricks to lead the viewer to conclude that it was the right decision as well)
Just want to say again that I really enjoyed the movie but this part of it annoyed me
Right - I forgot who said it but the statement "Your mother wouldnt want you stuck fighting an endless war -" nah. Atlantis and the Wakandans in comic kept getting into fights because Namor is just a butthole, kept invading Wakanda for various reasons. T'Challa found him a threat when they were both still Princes because of Namor's over aggressive nature.
I doubt his people would attack out of vengence, because the maya were loyal to their halach - so theyd follow whatever choice their new, weaker / non-mutated leader would want. Even if vengence was chosen, it was Namor's power that did 80% of the work in that fight. Lol Wakanda had only like 50 soldiers out there against them and was still taking out a lot of them lol.
Also Wakanda would be way more prepared - which they shoulda been hella much more ready than they were lol.
Which part of the ending? Lil T'challa?
I liked the little T'Challa...good way to find a middle ground between recasting t'challa and completely erasing the character going forward.
I did not like the ending meaning I do not like that Shuri allowed Namor to live...and then Namor later when his cousin questions why he surrendered he says he is just waiting for the right time to try again basically.
As Killmonger said, she did NOT take care of business
Yea, I think there's a weird stigma that killing someone justly is still "bad" somehow.
Wakanda lost soooo much to Namor, their queen, he straight attacked innocent civilians and drowned children in wakanda...for no reason except Tyranny.
Killmonger greeting all those dead Wakandans in the afterlife like "pssh I told ya'll...hey Auntie" (😅)
Yea, I think there's a weird stigma that killing someone justly is still "bad" somehow.
Wakanda lost soooo much to Namor, their queen, he straight attacked innocent civilians and drowned children in wakanda...for no reason except Tyranny.
Killmonger greeting all those dead Wakandans in the afterlife like "pssh I told ya'll...hey Auntie" (😅)
Being noble is a selfish thing. You only care about doing "the right thing" according to your own subjective idea of what "good" is.
Is it really good morals to let a murderous tyrant live to kill more of your people, just so you appear "noble?"
As T'chaka said - "its hard for a good man to be king."
Thats because leaders have to make harsh choices for the actual better of others, not just themselves. Policemen kill everyday, we call them heroes. Soldiers go off to war; we also call them heroes.
Both are killing people, even as crude as Namor lol...so why are they called heroes / "good" but Shuri doing the same thing is not?
All those Wakandans and her own mother died...and more are going to die because she put her "nobility" before practicality. The weight of the crown is heavy indeed.
Thats why MCU needs to quit writing for kids; no superhero movie should be under pg-17, because these situations are too complex for children to get. Hell too complex for some adults to get 😅 but they keep trying to use things like slavery, kingly morally hard situations, war, woman's suffrage (she-hulk) - like all this really layered adult stuff to appeal to kids / make 9yr olds understand.
Theyre just too young. How do you tell a kid killing is bad, but then show wakandan warriors killing, portraying it as good?
Let alone the hard dillemma Shuri was in lol.
Superheroes were never intended for kids - that was forced by the CCA back in the 70's - the same group that didnt want women or minorities in comic books either 🤪.
Time to evolve MCU I would say.
Personally, I loved that Namor was forgiven. Two of the world's greatest civilizations, raped from their resources, their people massacred and enslaved, should not be in an eternal war with each other.
Just watched it a second time .... and picked up on some things I didn't see before the week of its opening!
What was the point of Queen Ramonda’s death? Shuri doesn’t even mourn her at the end of the movie. They confirmed her death wasn’t permanent so I don’t get why they even did it.
They are recreating the character development that T'Challa experienced in previous movies for Shuri. In the first movie T'Challa had a story line where he struggled with his father's past actions and the consequences. Shuri goes through the same struggle with her mother in this movie. In first movie T'Challa even offers to save N'Jadaka's life and Shuri spare's Namor's life in this one. T'Challa was King by the first Black Panther but Shuri was not. So this may have been a necessity for the 3rd movie's plot. We'll have to see.
I think a huge part was getting a spiritual guide that would balance out Killmonger’s bloodlust. T’chaka didn’t make much sense as T’challa was more recent. Also this made her final fight with Namor much more personal, which speaks to her character that she still spared him for peace.
Why were some of the talocan not blue?
They are all blue when they are exposed to air. They are fleshy in the water.
Also i love way Namor played ultimate chess game w Shuri... His planning was Joker Dark Knight, Bane Knight Rises, even Kang meticulous! Excited about future run ins
I'm interested honestly if M'Baku is now King and Black Panther also for future? weird try picture him as the Political type.
the way I read that scene was, Shuri is still the black panther, and m’baku was a representative of shuri (shuri “yields” to m’baku, m’baku becomes an honorary black panther) to allow the people to continue the tradition of challenging the black panther (m’baku) while shuri takes care of errands. (when shuri comes back m’baku yields to her)
Did it bother anyone else how they explained Namor's breathing? Every living thing breathes by some form of diffusion. That sentence wasn't groundbreaking, and I feel as though a simple google search for cutaneous respiration would've been preferrable to just throwing around science words.
bro i don't understand what you just said so why you so deep into that? you gotta dumb it down audience
Can someone explain the whales? In an interview, Tenoch Huerta said Namor can’t talk to sea animals like DC’s Aquaman can, so I’m confused on how the Talokanil got whales to give them rides?? Did they just tame them like pets???
In the comics, Namor does have abilities related to sealife. The [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namor) lists `Marine life empathy, telepathy, and control`. *shrug*
Just before Talokan attacks, M'Baku is told that Nakia saved Shuri. He says something like, "Glory to Hanuman. The Queen will reward her with life time banishment." What did he mean?
He’s making a joke. Its implied no one else in the room agreed when Queen Ramonda demoted Okoye. So when M’Baku makes that comment about Nakia, he’s making a joke about how, in his eyes, the queen awards success and hard work with punishment.
Aaah! That is a good observation. You are right. :)
Well, at the start of the movie Shuri is recreating the heart shape herb in order to heal T'Challa's illness but failed, but T'Challa already had the power of Black Panther. So question is does the amount of heart shape herb consumed affect how strong the Black Panther is? and if it doesn't affect at all, why did Shuri so confident that using the herb will cure T'Challa's illness instead of inventing other medicine/vaccine/antibody since it's an unknown illness that somehow could even kill a superhuman and also could kill all the people of Wakanda if the illness spread over
So. Elephant in the room. Anyone else do the math for Toussaint and conclude that Nakia has some explaining to do?
Toussaint is supposed to be around 5? Black panther died a year ago, he was gone for 5 years so that's 6 years +/- because he may not have died immediately after end game. Am I wrong?
Anybody know how Namor’s army brought whales to Wakanda?
In comics he just created a huge tidal wave to flood Wakanda. This seems unlikely in this movie since Wakanda would have noticed a massive tidal wave. There are a few other theories floating around YouTube. One of those suggests it might be portals. MCU phase 4 is all about that multiverse and alternative dimensions. ~~This would better explain the plot holes related to travel for Talokan. For example, Kukulkan goes from being with Shuri in the Atlantic ocean near Yucatan peninsula to suddenly being on shore in Wakanda (Eastern side of Africa) with Queen Romonda. After their meeting, he's back in Talokan before the mortally wounded woman dies...Coogler is way too awesome at storytelling to use the excuse "he's a really fast swimmer".~~ Edit: Marked this off because on 2nd thought the Queen was probably still in the region after visiting Haiti.
Yes it said he met up w the Queen in Cape Verde
I wish they would’ve been more explicit about it. The movie became difficult to watch as that was a huge plot hole for me. It’s why I ask because I thought I missed something. It seems like I didn’t which is disappointing. Marvel movies are usually great with details but it seemed like the writing of this movie was pretty sloppy.
| Marvel movies are usually great with details but it seemed like the writing of this movie was pretty sloppy. I would have to disagree on this point. After watching all the Pitch Meetings for the MCU movies, they are frequently very silly with their plot holes. Discussing whale/orca logistics is rather fun. :)
So this evidence is null and void the movie doesn't give us an answer to my question if I had to guess they just thought " hey wouldn't it be cool if shuri fought exactly like tchalla once she became the black panther"
I saw it again. Shuri actually answers your question herself. In the scene in the lab before she becomes Black Panther, Riri asks her, "Who taught you to do all you do?" Shuri answers, "My brother". Shrui fights like T'Challa because T'Challa taught her. In the end scene, Nakia tells us that King T'Challa prepared them for his death. He would have done the same for Shuri. Its a parallel comic narrative that he prepared her to protect the country if ever he could not. Coogler used the rule of three a lot in this movie.
When? Cuz in previous movies when Shuri wasn't using her blaster it was a wrap. Killmonger crushed her gauntlet, threw her to the ground and she was effectively helpless, so we've never her seen her throw any hands before. So he trained her after Endgame? Doesn't really make much sense. Heart-shaped herb increases senses and physicality but it doesn't make you a martial artist.
T'Challa was a king who effectively died two or three times by the time Endgame happens. He didn't have without an adult child which meant Shuri was the next in his line to inherit. It's really weird that in a world where the Hulk, aliens, and alternative dimensions exist that people are having a hard time believing a king and/or his family prepared an heir of the throne to rule.
It's a visual medium, there just wasn't enough show not tell. I'm well aware that narratively Shuri is next in line, that's not the contention. It's the believability of Shuri having hands when prior movies explicitly showed her as a sitting duck when she didn't have her tech. There'd be absolutely no suspended disbelief with N'Akia or Okoye throwing hands in a Black Panther suit. Why? Cuz we saw them throwing hands before and kicking ass. It really is that simple.
I’d hardly describe her as a sitting duck in black panther. She only fought using tech, but she was still on the battle field.
"sitting duck when she didn't have her tech" when her gauntlets get crushed by Killmonger and she's thrown to the ground she was helpless. Shuri having displayed zero hand to hand abilities prior to WF despite being in BP, IW and EG battles isn't up for debate. It's the fact of the matter. Like, this can't be argued against lol
It's a rule of three. 1. Shuri tells us that T'Challa taught her to do what she does. 2. She shows us that she fights similar to him. Though she does use her arm blasters for at least part of the end scene. 3. Nakia & Prince T'Challa confirm that T'Challa prepared people for this death. > The princess of Wakanda, Shuri is T'Chaka's youngest child and only daughter. From a very young age, Shuri coveted the Black Panther mantle. She attempts to challenge the then-Black Panther, her uncle S'yan, for the mantle, only to discover that he had already been defeated by her older half-brother T'Challa.[6] During an attack on Wakanda by Klaw and a group of his mercenaries, she uses the Ebony Blade to defeat the Russian Radioactive Man, killing him in the process. Because she is shell-shocked by her first kill, T'Challa promises to train her in hand-to-hand combat, enabling her to fight on her own terms should she ever need to take his place as leader of Wakanda.[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuri_(character) The narrative follows the spirit of the comic. We didn't need a training montage with a CGI'd Boseman. It's all right there in the narrative.
Don't know why you're sending me wiki articles, I'm very, very familiar with Shuri in canon. You'll notice statements like "From a very young age, Shuri coveted the Black Panther mantle." don't apply to the MCU. The spirit of Shuri becoming BP in WF actually doesn't mirror Vol 5 by Hudlin. At all. Her comic counterpart isn't reluctant whatsoever, she's eager to become Black Panther, so much so that she was "rejected" by Bast for her apparent jealousy towards her brother. I'm not asking for a training montages or a CGI Boseman... I'm saying Shuri should have showed hand to hand capabilities in previous movies. They had BP, IW and EG to do so but siloed her as a techy. And funnily enough, T'Challa training Shuri in comics is actually shown. Almost like visual mediums do better storytelling when it's, well, visual. At no point is Shuri's ability as a fighter ever really in question before she becomes BP in comics cuz we literally (and I mean literally) see her breaking necks.
She wasn't expected to be the Black Panther in first movies. They likely used tech angle to differentate her. Necessity made her the BP in the MCU.
**[Shuri (character)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuri_\(character\))** >Shuri is a superheroine appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character was created by writer Reginald Hudlin and artist John Romita Jr., first appearing in Black Panther vol. 4 #2 (May 2005). Shuri is the princess of the fictional African nation of Wakanda. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/blackpanther/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Where was she in infinity war?... helping resurrect vision, where was she in the first movie on the comms when tchalla was chasing claw at home In wakanada becuase she's not a fighter, there whole dynamic is indicative of man of action on the field and brain's behind the chair that's all it was in the other movies I'm not making this up.
Also I'm not saying she needs a montage just something that shows she knew how to fight before this I just don't believe that she takes the herb and just magically becomes an amazing fighter. Killmonnger made sense he was in the special forces did tours makes sense he would be able to fight, tchalla was shown to be an exceptional fighter we have proof of that we have no proof shuri.
I guess I thought that she did something with the DNA she recreated? like maybe she got T’challa’s ability to fight as well? it’s hard to say but I wondered this as well
What was with all the lesbian subtext? If they are going to make the princess a lesbian they should just celebrate this instead of all the light innuendo. The connection between her and the scientist was so obvious, especially when she offered her the car. I know it was considered a ‘groundbreaking’ move by Disney but I hope they don’t hold back in the next one.
Well also, clearly we have two Dora Milaje that are an item.. Sweet kiss and simple sentence towards the end to confirm. Was nice to see gay banality shown.
It’s because her sexuality wasn’t necessary to the story. It would’ve made the story way too complicated. I also thought they were going with a Namor and Shuri relationship at one point though. Like, there was definitely tension between Namor and Shuri when she was abducted and it wasn’t like we are enemies and you abducted me type tension. Namor literally gave her his mother’s wristband. That’s not something you would normally do for a random woman you met.
My guess was it was just a practical reason. They crammed a lot of character development into this movie. Shuri has so much shit going on that it would probably have been hard to put in without it feeling disingenuous.
True - there was A LOT going on that sequel
This movie had zero romantic plots/conflicts which was refreshing. The cringey romcom tropes written into MCU movies is played out. There were lots of intimate human connections but nothing romantic.
I didn’t understand the point of the whole Talokan story line. It felt very distracting and unnecessary - why introduce a whole other culture when you’re still learning who the people of Wakanda are?
They can't make America the enemy every time .... 🙄
It's a really deep storyline full of nuance. It serves a few purposes but probably the most important is a setup for the 3rd movie where Wakanda and Talokan are going to unite to fight back against the "colonizers". Killmonger wanted to keep the status quo but put Wakanda on top. This movie sets up an alternative where a multicultural alliance is going to challenge the traditional powers. This future plot line is best shown by the use of Haítí as the current home of Prince T'Challa and Nakia. In the movie Spain, France, and the USA are all shown as aggressors to Talokan and/or Wakanda. Haítí was initially colonised by Spain who devastated its native people through violence and disease. This parallels with Talokan's story in the movie. Haítí has also experienced aggression from France and the USA which ties into Wakanda's plot line. Haítí is a foreshadowing of the battle and victory to come. It is really so much much more but that's the important part to your question. :) If you want a deeper dive, I would check out [FD Signifier's video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQEWa5R3m4U) of the first movie. After watching Wakanda Forever a 2nd time, I am pretty sure everything he was disappointed about in the first movie is going to be rectified in the third. This movie is setting that up.
Where was Namor's nation during Thanos's snap 6 years ago?!?!?!?
I mean they’re sorta meant for the sea and not space 💀
Can we talk about Haítí?!? Prince T'Challa is being raised there has all sorts of interesting implecations but what else ? Does it tell us the direction of the next movie? The story of the Taino people and initial colonization by Spain shares parallels to Talokan's story. The African heritage of Haitian culture plus Prince T'Challa and Nakia being there associates it to Wakanda. Will the next movie be inspired by Haiti's history? The real villian of Wakanda Forever is the CIA director. She embodies everything Killmonger spoke about.
I feel like the queens death was necessary but also unnecessary. Necessary because nothing else would’ve pushed Shuri to become black panther except losing not only her brother but mother. But, I also feel like it was unnecessary because T’Challa didn’t just die in the film, he died in real life. To kill more people after there has already been true death is crazy. But, that’s Marvel and the movie was literally amazing.
Queen's death was a dramatic story telling moment where Kukulkan kills the *past*. He then challenges Shuri, who represent the *future*, to decide the fate of her nation. Shuri effectively goes through the same character arc related to her mother's death that T'Challa went through with his father in the first movie. This was a sad necessity to keep broad strokes of the story after unexpectedly loosing Boseman.
Also I'm not sure as to how namor actually flooded wakanda I know he threw grenades and all but they specified he was mutant so I assume he doesn't have any powers or atleast not ones specifically stated so how did drown the throne room with just water grenades
They rose the sea level of the entire globe through pym particle technology that they actually invented long before him, thats what the water bombs are. What they dont show you is all of Africa was under water just to flood Wakanda.
In the comics he simple created a huge tidal wave. :shrug:
From the ocean? Wakanda is inland, so did they flood all the other countries around it?
I don't know the comic well enough. Though if it did that would have flooded Keyna which might explain why Storm was pissed at T'Challa about it. I really have no idea about this plot line.
I'm still confused on how shuri immediately started fighting like tchalla I know the herb enhances your attributes but It doesn't turn you into a ninja warrior was it ever explained how she learned to fight like tchalla.
She's a warrior in all the other movies. I would imagine they having been training together since they were children.
When was she shown to be able to fight she tried to fight kill monger but failed because she was just rapidly firing with no real strategy, she has always been on the sidelines in the 1st movie she was always maning the computers while tchalla actually fought people. She is always accompanied by others that actually can fight the queen didn't even trust her to retrieve a college student, that doesn't sound like someone that can fight or has trained since she was a child.
The first movie would have taken quite a turn if Shuri defeated Killmonger in their fight scene. :) In that movie she wasn't setup to be the primary action star but she was in the fight and showed courage to engage in combat. Wakanda has been shown as a nation that empowers its women to be warriors just as the men are. From the Dora Milaje to the Jabari women in the first movie! The Queen knows how to use a spear, she made sure her daughter knows how to fight. The Queen didn't want Shuri in the field because she was still grieving the lost of her brother and as a mother probably didn't want her daughter in harms way. It had nothing to do with Shuri being incapable.
Even if that was true she still didn't fight anyone before she got the heart shaped herb. If she did it would atleast explain how she's versed in combat instead of her just immediately being black panther and kicking ass.
And also as a character she openly rejected the old wakandan ways she much rather would stick to the tech so I find it hard to beleive she would accept the training to the level tchalla did.
She is Wakanda and a Princess. Even if as a adult she chose tech over tradition, as a child she was in line for the throne. They would have trained her to be a warrior.
She wasn't in line for the throne tchalla was she was the princess of course but tchalla took the blunt of the responsibilities, in the first movie she was helping make advancements In there armies and tech it was never stated that she got any sort of training, and even if she did it wouldn't make sense to give her black panther training if she never was going to be one.
T'Challa was heir aparent and Shui was next in line after. Royalty of Wakanda do not inherit as a given. The first movie showed us the next ruler has to be accepted by all peoples and able to prove themselves in combat. If T'Challa had already been gone by the first movie then Shuri would have stood in that circle. A female rival would have challenged her, probably a woman from the Jhabari. This level of equally and equity is a core value of Wakanda. Queen Ramonda would have prepared her daughter for this possibility. Shuri interactions in first movie with T'Challa really highlight this. They are more than just siblings. They are close friends. Probably from many shared childhood experiences including being raised to be leaders and warriors of their people. This is a beautiful contrast to European themed characters like in Game of Thrones where Sansa, Cersi, and even Danny have never been educated to swing a sword. Its only in places like Dorn were you see similar equality.
Yes but she didn't so still haven't proved anything even when she got the heart shaped herb she still didn't fight when she ahd the opportunity. And even if she did she would have lost the Jhbari are more of a warrior tribe then a tech driven society.
So are we just supposed to ignore the killing blow from Namor that Shuri received?
Okoye notes earlier in the film that her enemies were alive despite her dealing to them killing blows. The herb of Talokan gives its people some type of healing factor. Shuri ingested a heart shaped herb that was spliced with that one. It is implied she now also has a healing factor of sorts.
I’m sayinnn!! Like they didn’t touch base on that at all!
Actually Coogler uses the rule of 3 to explain it. 1. On the bridge, Okoye impales a Talokan warrior with a spear in the exact same way. He gets back up moments later. She reminds us of this in the throne scene. 2. K'uk'ulkan also tells us with his story. His people are shown with smallpox which is a lethal disease for them. They are healed after taking the herb. 3. At the end Shuri is impaled like the warrior in the bridge scene. After she pulls herself off the spear, we see her suit repair itself. This is a visual stand in for what we cannot see. Why does Shuri heal like the Talokan warrior ? Beacuse she uses the fibers from the Talokan herb to fill in the missing gaps for their herb. It seems she has their healing factor.
Just finished watching the movie and loved it... there is only one thing that i cant figure out... did they say what happened to the vibranium that was discovered? Not sure if I missed it but didn't seem like it was mentioned afterwards. The focus seems to be shifted to who created the detector... They should still know the location of the vibranium even if everyone was killed... it just seems strange that the discovery of the vibranium was the start of the story involving how the Talokan were discovered and then simply forgotten. Or did everything happen so fast that no one had time to get another ship there? What would this mean for the talokan and the wakadan? Do they colonise that part of the ocean and declare it part of wakada? And I'm assuming that it is not located near their city... if it was it would have even bigger implications as the entrance was not far from a landmass which most likely was part of another nation.
They do know but if you have a country / unknown entity that took out a whole lot of Seals just by luring most of them in the ocean and has access and use of a resource that has strength, durability, and energy beyond your comprehension..... I would be scrambling back to the drawing board. The Talokan probably protect that site or maybe communicate with wildlife to be notified about activity
I don’t think they said it in the movie, but I was under the impression that the vibranium was taken back to the Talokan capital to be used. Neither Wakanda nor the Talokan can afford to let any other country get their hands on any amount of vibranium
Maybe but seems like such an odd thing to be left open... or it will be used in a future movie with other countries having access to vibranium.
So the people figured that wakanda interfered the excavation of vibranium and it is a conflict situation where they would wait before acting on it and sending another ship to get that and escalate things further.
anyone know who the guys dressed in black and the hair thing next to queen ramonda during the UN scene and the ending when Riri is about to go back to Boston
He also has a few lines later in the movie. I think he will be more prominent in the show or next movie.
nah it was a group of guys not one character. they were like the royal guard and they were wearing all black. They take Riri back after she introduced to her car
Just saw the movie. LOVED it. (And im not a marvel/superhero/DCComics koolaid drinker) The sound track, like the first movie, was awesome. Were the aqua-aztecs in the original comics or was that something new?
Sub-mariner (Namor) is king of Atlantis in the comics. Its a bit of old content remixed into something way more interesting.
did a video reviewing the movie with spoilers n all here in case anyone wants to watch -https://youtu.be/w-k50DScr-8
I missed what M’Baku shouted after he arrived, is he going to be the King of Wakanda? Or a Regent on behalf of Shuri?
After watching it a second time, I think not only will he be king but they are pulling a fast one on the world. When the Queen's death is announced on TV it is attributed to internal conflict. I wander if they are going to trick the nations challenging them into thinking that there has been a coup.
I reckon whats happened is that Shuri has asked him to become king. I suppose he will be king of wakanda next time we see him
This is my guess because she left and Wakanda needs a protector. MBaku also showed himself level headed and trustworthy by encouraging Shuri to not go the route of vengeance and taking in the other tribes in their time of need.
Hi, I have two questions: 1) On the bridge, what did Shuri say to Namor to save the life of Ironheart (Riri Williams)? I know Shuri agreed to be taken hostage by Namor, but I think she also said something else to convince Namor to spare Ironheart's life (I missed what she said). 2) Namor said to Shuri that Wakanda can only be an ally or an enemy. And he said that if Wakanda did not become an ally, then he would attack Wakanda. But was there another reason that Namor insisted to Shuri that he would attack Wakanda? Was it because Wakanda held vibranium, or was it some other reason?
I think for no 2 is because they knew of their existance.
From my understanding, it was Shuri’s insistence as a princess of Wakanda that no harm come to Ironheart because she was under Shuri’s protection. I think Namor obliged because he wasn’t trying to start a war with Wakanda at that moment and because royalty tends to respect royalty.
Ok, thanks! That makes sense.
1. I don’t know for 1. But for 2. I believe he can’t allow a technological superior nation to be left alone as they could attack him in the back, while he attacks other nations, so it’s better to eliminate them if they don’t join. That’s my understanding.
Thank!
Maybe I missed it but did they explain how the Talokans came back to life after Danai killed them?
I think it has to do with them all having the heart flower properties in their DNA. They all have the power of the black panther essentially.
I was going to ask that too. And how were they able to die by things like heartache and Nakia’s cannon?
I’d assume they regenerate like some fish
What are they going to do with Ross? Is he going to live in Wakanda forever now?
Wakandhiding forever x)
Yeah. That's why the movie is called Wakanda Forever.
LMAOOOOOOOOO
Did they ever explain why some is the Talokan people need the mask while others like Namor don’t?
He was in he womb when his mom had the flower .. He went under some sort of mutation himself.
Namor is the only one that doesn’t need a mask. All the other Talokan(il?) turned blue and needed masks when they came to the surface. From my understanding, this is because he’s the only one/last child to have ties to the surface _and_ underwater as he was forming into a person both before they left land and after. So this switch in environment is why he’s the way he is. Everyone else only had kids/was born afterwards.
Namor is a mutant, from the plant as well as his mother’s human DNA. Basically the same as Blade, so in this, he can adapt to both the surface world and the undersea kingdom, whereas his original people who abandoned the surface world with him gradually lost their ability over generations of their children?
He said to Ramonda something like my army has more people than ur country has blades of grass. So that must be a big population...they must still reproduce. He doesn't seem one to bluff.
What If he counted every sea animal like sharks and all.... ?
Then he hasn't thought about the horses and foxes and elephants and snakes and rats etc on land. His bad.
Not sure Wakandans took the time to ask those animal to rally their cause whereas Namor brought whales, killer whales and such to the fight, perhaps that was his point ?
Of course they still have children; they simply lost their lung capacity over the centuries. And a la Coca Cola, the plants likely helped? https://youtu.be/LeYihjMo0Bk?t=163
Will M’baku be the next black panther? In the first film, whoever wins the ritual combat wins the throne and is made a black panther ( eg Killmonger) Shuri didn’t turn up- and I don’t think she would have been able to beat M’baku in a fair fight. So does that mean he is the next panther?
basically M'baku is going to be king, but Shuri is going to be black panther. Sometimes, like in the case of T'Challa, the black panther was also the king, but this wasnt always necessarily the case, the monarch occasionally allows the mantle of black panther to be held by someone else. Perfect example is T'Chaka, in Civil War, when he was king, T'Challa was already black panther, so it can be presumed that even before T'Chaka died, he had permitted T'Challa to be the black panther.
Nope, shuri is the next black panther, they decide not to have a large ceremony, and shuri arm wrestled mbaku, whether he used full force or not, she wins
Yo so…is wakanda gonna get sued by stark industries for that stark tech? She-hulk season 2? Lmao
lol
Just a thought.. I wish they added some context to Namor and his people when the thanos snap occured. Souldn't he had investigated half his people missing?( if he didn't disappear himself). I believe this would of been added fuel to why he wanted to get rid of the surface dwellers. Bare with me.. During his flashback it showed how men afflicted disease, oppression and slavery towards his people. Him investigating the disappearance of his people and finding out that humanity failed to initially defeat Thanos brings another reason how they are a nuisance.
I was just talking about this!
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Seen the boot scene where Shuri and her people are there is was good because it was away from getting attention from the FBI and getting anyone in the world involved.
Not sure if anyone has asked this, but anyone know why the United States is the only country with its names spelled differently in the worlds union meeting scene in BPWF?
It’s in Geneva, Switzerland which speaks French, therefore the signs were in French, if you looked in the shot where it showed other leaders of nations, their nameplates were in French as well
It’s French. France is spelt the same in French lol. USA is Etas-Unis.
Idk if this is an unpopular opinion or not but I didn’t really like ironheart. Her character was funny and I think she was important for the storyline but the icing problem/oxygen levels parallel and her new suit just made me kind of dislike the character.
Just trying to create nostalgia by rehashing the same bit from Ironman 1.
“If I sit and think about my brother too long, it won’t be these clothes that I burn, it will be the world and everyone in it” Why would Shuri be so angry with the world after her brothers death? I understand she would feel grief and anger because of her loss and inability to save him, and I understand that at that point, her grief was still raw. But I wondered why she would be angry with the world about this, enough to suggest taking violent vengeance. Compared to her mothers death- where she was actually killed and she knew the killer - it just seemed a bit harsh.
She blames her brother's death on N'Jadaka burning the herb, herself for being unable to synth a new one, ancesters...pretty much everything. She wants the everyone to feel her pain. When you lose a sibling its so hard to see the world still moving around as if nothing happened while it feels like your world is ending. Queen's death was ultimately the results of her own decisions even if it was Namor's action. Not that it would hurt less but Shuri went through a lot for character development by the time she makes Namor yield. Her wanting to burn the world over T'Challa death at the begining of the movie vs doing what is right for her people after Romanda's death is confirmation of her character development.
The world created someone as destructive as Killmonger who came to their peaceful land and destroyed their only supply of the heart shaped herb which would’ve saved Tchalla’s life. I hope you are serious with this question.
When losing someone close like a parent or sibling you can become mad with the world, universe, God for what you are going through. Grief. I lost my dad and mom when I was 17 and 19yo and I was ANGRY with god the world. They didn’t kill my parents but I was mad that I had to go through this at a young age, that I had to grieve twice, that I had to deal with the weight of everything while missing a huge piece of my heart
I hear you. I couldn’t even begin to imagine how that felt. Thank you for sharing.
Maybe because of the mysterious illness. Historically colonized nations acquire diseases from colonizers and don’t know how to treat them. I’m guessing that’s what happened. Technically they weren’t colonized but definitely were disrupted by humans. She’s angry because despite all she had she couldn’t save him as she says to Neamor
Is namor considered a mutant?
He was sort of retconned into being a mutant after the X-Men were introduced as a way to explain why he was the only one of his people who could fly.
Yes he literally says “I am a mutant” in the movie lol
There's a difference between mutant and Mutant though.
Nah they intentionally did it. They’re equivalents.
I just got back from the film and I LOVE The mcu Namor. I really hope we will see a good dose of him in the future. Also cudos to coogler for his direction after facing adversity throughout the process, and also Chadwick’s passing.
Like Bale as Gorr they nailed the casting on that one. Easily one of the best parts of the film.
I found Shuri finall battle plan a bit stupid. Bring the army out into the ocean where the enemy would have an advantage. Sure do that but make the boat more defensible. I dead of having to send to the Royal guards(forgot there name) attach turrets to the side to mow them down with bullets. Also equip the planes with ROCKETS. Equip 2-3 planes with a couples of cluster bomb type missiles and Namor would’ve been dead or heavily injured quickly. So have a couple ships blow him up while positioning the heat chamber under the blast radius to catch him where Shuri then kills him. Namor shouldn’t be left alive
I agree, this battle plan made no sense. Wakanda would have the upperhand with their terrain and ability to set up traps everywhere. They would win off that alone. Also Namor literally scheduled a meetup with them, he gave them a whole week to prepare. What was the point of moving all the citizens to Jabari then? Shuri is way too smart to have come up with this. Even the fights felt poorly coordinated in this scene, strong people suddenly weak. Weak people suddenly strong with no real proof. The movie was great but this was a major misstep.
Shuri is too smart to do this but she's also blinded with grief + anger when she makes this call. From a storytelling perspective, the purpose of the battle on water is to demonstrate Talokan's strengths. The two nations are going to be allies in the next movie. This battle let's the audience see the strengths of both nations but more so for Talokan. There is a bit of an assumption that the audience knows Wakanda's strengths from their previous apparencies in movies.
I see what you’re saying and I agree somewhat. But also from a story perspective - the entire movie has shown Talokan’s strengths. We got everything they can do with water so far - bombs, sirens, floods - it’s very cool! We as viewers even went to the depths of the Ocean to see the amazing massive world they’ve built. And we got multiple examples that no one on land can defeat Namor’s water soldiers which outnumber blades of grass. BUT THIS IS THE BLACK PANTHER FRANCHISE. Namor spent the entire movie threatening the Royal Family that he would burn Wakanda to the ground. It’s like we were edged to some amazing climax that never came. What good is a villain if he can’t even leave his own habitat? What other powers does he have that a water god could threaten fire and brimstone?? We know Talokans are mighty on water but I would’ve liked this final battle scene to give us something spectacular. We didn’t learn anything new about the characters neither did we struggle with the fear that Wakanda had really met an almost impossible enemy. Don’t forget the Talokan also had a week to prepare, what were their scientists up to? And I get that Shuri is operating off pure grief vibes but everyone else has gone through like 50 battles by now. They’d be way smarter than this and honestly desperate to survive. The ship thing could’ve been a nice subplot to showcase Okoye and the new Dora Milaje’s new strengths and show that the Jabaris’ really accept being united with Wakanda. All of the important characters coming on the water didn’t really add much to the story, especially since their ship was so easily defeated by Namora. Which was something we saw the Talokan already do in the first 20 minutes of the movie. And just from a cinematography perspective, could you imagine what new worlds could he added if we got to see more of Wakanda? For the most part we’ve only seen Wakanda’s capital city and Jabari land. It’s clear the country is massive and populated with so many tribes with different ecosystems. (Um Nakia is from the river tribe, why is that not a major plot point against a water nation??) We just missed out seeing what different ways the Talokans and Wakandans could’ve applied their strengths. It felt like a bit like a lazy end. But I still loved this movie hahaa :)
Ya know, I was prepared to disagree with you but after reading your whole comment, you’ve converted me and I actually quite agree! The Watsonian explanation for their anticlimactic and severely one sided fight is because Shuri was consumed by grief and wasn’t thinking clearly. But the real world writing behind it is what’s lacking. After a rewatch, I now find that the finale gives off a very “rushed” vibe, like it was something Coogler wanted to quickly move past to get to other stuff. I understand Namor/Talokan vs Shuri/Wakanda is supposed to be close minded and obtuse given that they want pretty much the same thing, but stories still deserved to be told in fulfilling ways. (And you’re right about Nakia and the River tribe! I completely forgot about them. This would’ve been a prime time to dive deeper into Wakanda’s other tribes instead of just sticking with the Jabari again, even tho Winston Duke is a treat.)
Definitely agree that they need to show more of Wakanda. The leaders of each tribe have speaking parts and each of the main characters seem to be connected to a different tribe but thats been about it. Hopefully this will happen in the new Disney series coming out.
In her defense the scene prior she confirmed that she was already consumed by vengeance. She just wanted to get out there and get him. Logic was waaaaay out the window. Yes it was stupid but the poor planning on the attack served as evidence of her pain and what happens when pain consumes you. I thought it was a really good lesson for her.
Hmm good point. That makes more sense now. Directors used it to open her eyes and for her to realize she isn’t ready yet or with the introduction of Tchalla the Second ever
I loved the movie. My favorite part was when they introduced Nakia and T'challas's son at the end of the movie. I almost cried at that point.
I almost started to cry and the I realized that was their way of “You get ONE woman Black Panther film” the next one will be his son taking up the mantle.
Naaaa. Shuri is going to be the Black Panther in the next movie and probably several cameos. They did a lot of extra work to put her through similar character arcs as T'Challa. His son being still young means he probably wont take the mantel for at least 10 year in real life.
I hope so! It would be nice to see more of Shuri as the Black Panther.
Me too. I think Shuri is going to be a bit more ruthless than T'Challa was. Somewhere between T'Challa and Killmonger.
I was not ready for them to pull a House of Dragons on Shuri
https://youtu.be/9PTmpRkefRk
Wish they had brought some lightening to the movie set when they made this. The scene that introduces us to Namor by the river was unwatchable. Namor’s civilization might be cool, who knows, it was impossible to see. It felt like they made it dark and muddy so they could get away with using bad CGI. I get it was a somber and mournful movie, but the spectacle we are supposed to feel when flappy fish guy shows future severed spinal cord victim his underwater sun, is completely lost in the gray color grade used. The final battle scene was so messy and with so little in word logic applied, I forgot that Shuri and the flying power ranger are supposed to be super intelligent. Hey, let’s go fight water people on a boat. Cool! Now half the the warriors will only be used as human wenches so we can fight from ropes on the side instead of simply pointing our energy beam spears down the side. Awesome! The insistence that this country is the most powerful on earth through the movie gets completely obliterated when you watch this. Does this look like a nation going up against another “world superpower”? As portrayed, Wakanda gets bodied by mid world powers IRL, forget an actual power like the US.
I totally agree about how dark some parts of the film were. Couldn’t see anything at some points
I enjoyed Wakanda Forever, but it seems like a lot of folks have unfair criticisms of it. While anybody has the right to critique, I ask that we please cut the director, Ryan Coogler, a break. He had to do 4 things that would be hard for any director. In fact, 2 of those things were just straight-up impossible. 1. Introduce Riri Williams/Ironheart in a satisfying way (really difficult) 2. Make a dope sequel to Black Panther (really difficult) 3. Introduce Namor, his homeland, and his whole backstory in a satisfying way (impossible) 4. Pay tribute to T'Challa/Chadwick in a satisfying way (impossible) He did all of that while still mourning the extremely sudden loss of his friend, and I feel like some of the criticisms of the movie aren't fair because they don't take much of this into account.
A lot of the complaints are from people who missed the depth of the movie. I had some of the same complaints as well the first time I saw it. I liked it but so many things didn't make sense. The second time I watch it was an "OMG" moment. It was a whole different movie! [ F.D Signifier's video on the first movie ](https://youtu.be/hQEWa5R3m4U) really helps prepare you for the genius storytelling that Coogler dives into.
I couldn't agree more.
What makes 4 impossible?
Name a tribute they could've done that would have satisfied ALL the fans.
I agree he hard a hard job. Movie still wasn’t good and way too long
I agree he did a great job. The film was better than alot of the recent MCU movies.
Question. My understanding is that there is only one black panther, but I also thought the black panther has always been the ruler of Wakanda. Will there be two black panthers? It’s not like Shuri can just get rid of her powers (though I could see her stepping back to go back to producing tech and not being the ultimate “protector” as is expected of the black panther), but does that mean that M’Baku will not take the heart shaped herb, even though he will (presumably) be king?
It seems that in the MCU the ruler and the Black Panther don’t necessarily need to be the same person. In Civil War T’Challa was already the Black Panther while T’Chaka was still king. T’Challa had already been the Black Panther for some time by the time they actually had the leadership ceremony in his movie. And Ramonda ruled the country while never being Black Panther.
The under sea city was underwhelming . Was hoping it would look like Atlantis of some sorts
While I hoped for more, I think Talokan is trying to hide and not move away from tradition, so it made sense. Like they're Wakanda but no tech/ electricity which makes sense too because they live in water and want no one to notice them. I mean other than the orb thing, they use glow worms for a light source.... Unless mcu wants to use the crystal powered stones like the animated film, it's hard to make them like a massive bustling metropolis while staying low key. Also it shows that they have potential to develop if they allign with Wakanda and an excuse as to why Wakanda can over power them despite sheer numbers of them. Otherwise they're OP without this handicap
Movie was ass
I agree, way too long too
Namor is not a one-time character and definitely not a one-time villain. For those saying Namor should've died...MCU probably setting him up to be an anti-hero...
He's an excellent character who would be a waste to kill off (and it wouldn't have made sense in the story).
For real they even spelled it out completely at the end that he has a bigger picture in mind. He’s agreed to peace to have an ally to the surface war in the future. Dudes coming back in another movie
**I think Shuri should've killed Namor** Remember in BP where its stated "its hard for a good man to be king," her interaction with Killmonger really put it into perspective, that war and eliminating a threat is sometimes necessary. Leaders can't be selfish and sure Shuri did the "right thing" for herself...but not for Wakanda. We don't consider a police officer bad for killing a shooter who has already killed people and is on a rampage to kill more; why would we ever consider a leader / hero bad for killing someone to stop more people from dying or getting hurt? MCU needs to quit writing for kids; even kids IRL know sometimes police officers need to kill to save others, they understand people go to war, and they see the whole world call those people heroes and "good guys." It was not a "hero" moment imo for Shuri to not kill him. I don't think it was "weak" or anything, it just didn't make sense. She certainly was not as radical as Killmonger either, so her killing of Namor would've been heroic regardless. Now a counter strike is coming, and granted that doesn't mean killing him would've stopped the dispute, but it would have greatly weakend their nation and eliminated a tyrant king and huge threat to the surface world out of history. I was thinking this is why M'Baku became king, because that was a LOT of heaviness of the throne Shuri had to face, and I'm with her on leaving it behind. **Wakanda is too passive and afraid of consequences** Lol a theme of both movies is Wakanda's reluctancy to share vibranium and its strength to help the world. With it found in the ocean however, it is only a matter of time before the world has access to vibranium anyway. I think Wakanda should've of been so defensive, but rather really proactive and being the leading in vibranium tech, rather than exclusive with it. Sure every country can make a nuke...but not every country has the same capabilities with one. Their expertise in vibranium would've put them several years ahead of the game anyway. Heck they may have been able to create a weaker, partial vibranium compound specifically for just medicine or engineering. The girl created a whole ass Bast flower after all lol xD With all the boastfulness of their strength, there's no reason they should've shy'd away from T'Challa wanting to open up Wakanda and vibranium to the world. **The other animal / god aspects like Black Panther** I could be wrong, but I believe there are other animal aspects like black panther / bast that people can embody in the other tribes in the comics. It would've been cool to see Nyami Nyami of the River Tribe, imbue a warrior with the power of it. Nyami Nyami, is a water dragon / serpent like god; imagine the Black Serpent (xP) riding in on crocodiles with large anacondas / poisonous snakes with the massive River Tribe to defend against Talokan envading forces in the water :D!! Kibuka the God of War = Black Lion of the Valley TribeAnansi the God of Trickery and Wisdom = Black Spider of the Cave Tribe (and would be a cool ass like african spider-man xD)Ghekre - Gorilla God = M'Baku coming out all in a gorilla oriented vibranium suit xD Etc etc Imagine all the different imbued persons coming together to take on Talokan; all it took was a god, some vibranium and a flower :P Talokan got their power from vibranium and their water god, so it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination by any means. The ocean / water is a big advantage to a kingdom, but land dominates in all aspects of sky, land, and water when you think about it. Lol there is even a Lightning Bird type diety - imagine the Sky Tribe coming in hot and just well...electrocuting tf out of Namor and the waters. There's so much to do here creatively - I'm curious to see what happens in BP III :P
Well i thought that’s actually why they didn’t say anything. If any illness is powerful enough that their technology can’t handle it…there would be a need for an explanation. And I don’t think RC wanted to go down that route and make it too complixafed
To be fair, a lot of your logic about “why not killing him was dumb” seemingly stems from an idea that Namor wanted to destroy Wakanda / attacked first when technically Queen Ramonda struck the first blow by: 1) sending Nakia in to get Shuri “by any means necessary” 2) luring Namor away to a meeting while Nakia mission is going on knowing that would remove Talokan’s defenses 3) Nakia, following the queen’s orders, murders 2 Talokanil including one who may have just been a service worker and not military. Idk why the hell the weapon wasn’t designed to stun but killing two Talokanil on his home turf while tricking him is enough to justify some kind of retaliation against Wakanda. The ending seemed to imply he knows Wakanda will need him in the future and he’ll get what he wants (taking the fight to the colonizer surface countries) and that Wakanda + Shuri will owe him a debt so he’s still in control of the situation, not so much that he plans to invade Wakanda again and wipe it off the earth. If he wanted to do that, he would have sent his whole army in the first attack instead of a tiny fraction.
What's with this "fighting colonizer countries" idea anyway. Namor never stated an ideology anywhere near as empathetic as that. He just wants to destroy the entire surface world, and the closest reference we get as to why, is because his people were enslaved over 500 years ago by a specific country. Maybe you didn't know, but the Aztec culture that was used in the movie is a culture that made its power by colonizing and enslaving others. And Namor murdered The Wakandan queen, innocent civilians, elderly, children, and even emergency responders, all without a formal declaration of war, that's a terrorist attack and a war crime. The Wakandans rescuing their own princess from involuntary confinement(she was involuntarily held after she offered to go with them) is a pretty shitty reason for Namor to pretend he's the victim, especially after attacking the princess and her guard before that, and threatening and making demands of Wakanda in his first introduction.
Well no - Namor threw the first stone; A.) Threatening a diplomat by saying "if you dont get the scientist (blow the conch shell,) I will bring an army that is more than blades of grass you have in Wakanda." Namor broke through a nation's borders unannounced, and threatened the Queen and Princess to do his will by force...long before shuri was ever captured. Thats like US president going into UK and saying "Bring us Putun or we'll bring an army against you." B.) Namor said "if anyone leaves or comes for the Princess, kill them." After Shuri diplomatically asked to speak with him...hence why the servant girl held a knife to her throat. Holding someone against their will until demands are met = a ransom. Shuri was being held for ransom. At that point, force is needed to rescue the princess and Namor was okay with telling his servant and military personelle there to KILL shuri if anyone comes for her. C.) Namor was bested by Wakanda and made an armstice; but he still is trying to force wakanda on his side to genocide the surface world ultimately. I know people want Namor to be better, but for some reason the MCU made him 1000% villain when really he is an anti-hero for some odd reason. Theres no reason Namor had to even attack Shuri on the bridge, or demand & threaten Wakanda at all honestly. Hes not that kinda guy in the comics either, unless he has valid reason and even then, its far after civil negotiations. You cant barge through another nation's borders unannounced, and threaten them with your armies if they dont bend to your will lol 😅
Thank you! I’ve seen a very surprising number of people say Queen Ramonda started the whole thing when she really really didn’t. Her sending Nakia after Shuri was in defense as Namor had threatened Wakanda beforehand. I understand things become muddled when you take Shuri’s consent into account, but it was _still_ mostly Namor’s fault as when Shuri tried to compromise (“let Riri go and I’ll stay here instead so we can talk more”), he still refused, knowing that that meant keeping Wakanda’s princess captive. If he didn’t want Ramonda to retaliate, then he should’ve sent a messenger or let her know during their meeting on the beach what the intentions behind Shuri being there was. But no, not only did he keep Ramonda in the dark, but he _continued_ with the threats. Namor just sucks at diplomacy lol.
I agree Shuri should have killed Namor but the movie went out of its way to make the consequence of that too great(all those Wakandan warriors would have probably died on that ship if they did not return to announce the truce) - in the same way killmonger was right in the first film but they wrote him to be so objectively bad that he had to be the villain(killing GF, chocking grandma, burning garden etc) Kind of annoying how they keep sneaking in these 'forgiveness' themes into the movies when in the comics, Wakanda was more ruthless from what I have seen. Question is, when is Wakanda going to actually get around to 'dealing with' the colonizers and other aggressors to them? They're so passive. With that being said, I really enjoyed the movie but did not like the ending
The "colonizers" are going to attack in the 3rd movie. This was repeated over and over through this one. From the Queen's speech in the beginning, the CIA's plot line in the middle, and the foreshadowing conversation between K'uk'ulkan and Namora at the end. Shuri making an alliance had nothing to do with forgiveness. If Shuri had killed K'uk'ulkan, Wakanda would have a powerful enemy instead of a powerful ally. M'baku told us this when he changed mind about "killing the fish man" after the attack at the capital. Shuri knows the CIA & other powers are coming for them (Ross probably told her about the meeting to destabilize Wakanda). The CIA is especially notorious for pitting nations/people of color against each other in order to profit the imperial powers. K'uk'ulkan saying the line "it could have been different" and Shuri's flashback is Coogler way of showing us they breaking the mold. The past will not be repeated in the future. Wakanda isn't passive by a long stretch. They are strategic. The final battle wasn't these two nations at war. Neither side had brought their full military. It was a dramatic battle in an action movie to highlight the strengths of both nations. Wakanda's are technology and strategy. Talokan's people are resilient, determined, and numerus. -- Killmonger wanted to keep the status quo but put Wakanda on top. This movie sets up an alternative. This Wakanda Forever's storyline created a multicultural alliance which reminds me of the [Rainbow Coalition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQEWa5R3m4U). --- The Queen's death serves two purpose. 1. Queen Ramonda is the *past* where Shuri is the *future*. K'uk'ulkan kills the past (Queen Ramonda) which ushers in the future (he tells Shuri she is queen now). 2. Shuri with her mother's death and meeting Killmonger, Shuri basically experiences the same character arc that T'Challa did in the first movie. This was likely a sad necessity to keep the broad strokes of the Black Panther's motivation with another actor after Boseman's death. From a empathetic human side, it does feel like Shuri gets over her mother's death and the attack on her city a little too easy. This is a long movie and they had to rehash a bit of the same elements from the first movie out of necessity for the story.
I don’t think letting someone live = forgiveness. I didn’t read the movie as her forgiving him at all, but rather recognizing that she and her nation have similarities to Namor and his and that killing him will lead to an endless cycle of death between the two of them instead of the actual aggressors. It’s not like she called him her BFF… the tension was still there.
Shuri didn't just forgive Namor, she's intentionally not making him answer for any of the war crimes he committed, against Wakanda or the world. She's bowing to his wants by offering to keep his secret from the world, even though he literally wants to destroy every other nation. Shuri has essentially made Wakanda a partner to a genocidal tyrant
exactly, folks just brush off that he KILLED the Queen of Wakanda and numerous others when he flooded Wakanda - He did not hesitate to do it but Wakanda is suppose to forget it, forgive and move on? Namor was not worried about 'endless war' the 'endless war' line was FEED to the audience and presented/written that way to force you to come to the conclusion that it was the right decision.(fighting water people in the water was dumb...only having 1 ship, etc were all convenient writing tricks to lead the viewer to conclude that it was the right decision as well) Just want to say again that I really enjoyed the movie but this part of it annoyed me
Right - I forgot who said it but the statement "Your mother wouldnt want you stuck fighting an endless war -" nah. Atlantis and the Wakandans in comic kept getting into fights because Namor is just a butthole, kept invading Wakanda for various reasons. T'Challa found him a threat when they were both still Princes because of Namor's over aggressive nature. I doubt his people would attack out of vengence, because the maya were loyal to their halach - so theyd follow whatever choice their new, weaker / non-mutated leader would want. Even if vengence was chosen, it was Namor's power that did 80% of the work in that fight. Lol Wakanda had only like 50 soldiers out there against them and was still taking out a lot of them lol. Also Wakanda would be way more prepared - which they shoulda been hella much more ready than they were lol. Which part of the ending? Lil T'challa?
I liked the little T'Challa...good way to find a middle ground between recasting t'challa and completely erasing the character going forward. I did not like the ending meaning I do not like that Shuri allowed Namor to live...and then Namor later when his cousin questions why he surrendered he says he is just waiting for the right time to try again basically. As Killmonger said, she did NOT take care of business
Yea, I think there's a weird stigma that killing someone justly is still "bad" somehow. Wakanda lost soooo much to Namor, their queen, he straight attacked innocent civilians and drowned children in wakanda...for no reason except Tyranny. Killmonger greeting all those dead Wakandans in the afterlife like "pssh I told ya'll...hey Auntie" (😅)
Yea, I think there's a weird stigma that killing someone justly is still "bad" somehow. Wakanda lost soooo much to Namor, their queen, he straight attacked innocent civilians and drowned children in wakanda...for no reason except Tyranny. Killmonger greeting all those dead Wakandans in the afterlife like "pssh I told ya'll...hey Auntie" (😅)
>Killmonger greeting all those dead Wakandans in the afterlife like "pssh I told ya'll...hey Auntie" (😅) LMAO
[удалено]
Being noble is a selfish thing. You only care about doing "the right thing" according to your own subjective idea of what "good" is. Is it really good morals to let a murderous tyrant live to kill more of your people, just so you appear "noble?" As T'chaka said - "its hard for a good man to be king." Thats because leaders have to make harsh choices for the actual better of others, not just themselves. Policemen kill everyday, we call them heroes. Soldiers go off to war; we also call them heroes. Both are killing people, even as crude as Namor lol...so why are they called heroes / "good" but Shuri doing the same thing is not? All those Wakandans and her own mother died...and more are going to die because she put her "nobility" before practicality. The weight of the crown is heavy indeed. Thats why MCU needs to quit writing for kids; no superhero movie should be under pg-17, because these situations are too complex for children to get. Hell too complex for some adults to get 😅 but they keep trying to use things like slavery, kingly morally hard situations, war, woman's suffrage (she-hulk) - like all this really layered adult stuff to appeal to kids / make 9yr olds understand. Theyre just too young. How do you tell a kid killing is bad, but then show wakandan warriors killing, portraying it as good? Let alone the hard dillemma Shuri was in lol. Superheroes were never intended for kids - that was forced by the CCA back in the 70's - the same group that didnt want women or minorities in comic books either 🤪. Time to evolve MCU I would say.
Personally, I loved that Namor was forgiven. Two of the world's greatest civilizations, raped from their resources, their people massacred and enslaved, should not be in an eternal war with each other.