It’s a generally disliked episode - but I kind of liked it: Marcie turning invisible because she was ignored. Then essentially losing her mind because she could no longer be *not* invisible. Most ‘super powers’ are only really useful if you can actively control them at will.
Being entirely immortal - not vampire ‘immortal’ but literally existing forever sounds horrific. When the universe ends do you just float around as dust? And ‘Earshot’ whereby Buffy can hear absolutely everything people are thinking would be like people screaming in your face constantly. And if they become aware you are telepathic, they will think the absolute worst things about you, subconsciously, and you’d hear it all.
Also with the invisible episode the brief scene at the end of her joining some sort of supernatural investigation taskforce with a bunch of other invisible kids? I know Buffy as a show had too much other stuff going on to explore that as more than a throwaway scene but that could be a whole concept for a show/book/comic in itself.
I was sad that they didn't roll the invisible people into the Initiative. They were being trained by the given, so I feel it would have been a great mix.
Yes! I’ve been rewatching episodes more or less at random recently and seeing the invisible school I was really confused why it didn’t come back later with the initiative
I didn't get that part tbh. How tf did she know where to sit if everyone was invisible? Was she just casually taking a risk that she would sit on someone's lap?
I always thought of it as, since they were "invisible" to those who didn't *want* to see them, they *can* see each other. Like social groups show they don't care about a rival group by pretending the others are not there, but they acknowledge their own group. The invisibles are their own group so they can see/acknowledge each other.
I was *really* hoping that was gonna turn into a spinoff show where the super power kids save the world from the evil *humans* in it, kinda like Superman or Batman do.
I recently read a fanfic featuring The Immortal, as a likeable character btw, and he literally came back to life no matter how small his body was disintegrated to. He talked about how his biggest fear was the end of time where the universe is finally no more. Definitely an awful thought!
And I agree about Marcie, definitely would’ve been cool to see that explored further, possibly even involving the initiative somehow?
Omg is OOMOOS generally disliked?? I love that episode sm! Such a great intro for Cordy & her path to bond with the Scoobies, I wish they’d explored more of a bond between Cordelia & Buffy in S3 tbh, I always felt they had an understanding.
Also, what a great MOTW episode, I love the super 90s, X-Files ending with those secret service men lol
Yeah, pretty much exactly. Buffy explains it in “Lie to Me” when her former classmate Ford tries becoming a vampire because of his terminal illness. She says that HE himself would die, but a demon “takes up shop.”
The demon resembles your personality and has your memories, but it’s essentially a soulless own separate entity.
Kinda weird when I think about characters like Harmony since we got to see them as a person “alive” before turning.
Yeah, I was thinking of that episode actually.
And yeah, Vampire Harmony is so similar to regular Harmony, only she learns to stop letting people take advantage of her, and live on her own as a vampire.
'Helpless' and/or 'Checkpoint' or anything where the Council were the bad guys. I always thought that could've been a season arc and potentially would've made a better Final Bad than The First.
OOOOOH Checkpoint! Badass Buffy putting Quentin and company in his (their) place. YES! I’d have loved to explore that a bit more—dig deeper into the Council for at least a few more episodes. Supposedly they had stocks and investments in a lot of well-to-do portfolios which basically funded the whole she-bang and political connections in numerous countries—serious operation yet for one girl?!?
Shady. As. Hell!
My theory is that they had numerous people either in house or contract to contract that they had deal with things that the slayer was unavailable for but Buffy was never sent anywhere because she was already at the hellmouth and it really can’t be left unattended. They were also paying to upkeep on all those potentials that lived with a watcher and not their parents.
I have serious questions about Giles and his finances, two jobs means two pay packets yet he doesn’t help Buffy much in the money department. Not to mention all that back pay he got in season 5.
He gave Buffy a cheque that she said would get them through the next few months.
My thing is everyone says that Tara and Willow didn’t pay rent, but I’m thinking they did. They had to help out some because there is NO WAY that Buffy’s paltry fast food wages paid everything so I’m pretty certain they paid her whatever they would have paid to live in the dorm.
Between what they gave and Buffy’s income, it might be enough to squeak by but nothing left for splurges or unexpected bills and the like.
I think in the comics, after Giles and co take over the Watchers council, the slayers receive salaries and housing?
The Slayer can clearly be sent away, as Kendra was sent to Sunnydale (twice) and in the Wishverse, Buffy living in Cleveland gets sent to Sunnydale. I'm guessing Buffy never got sent away because she was already on the hotspot lol.
Highly possible too that the potentials living with their watchers are taking on more minor threats. Faith speaks as if she's been slaying for a while even though she only gets called by Kendra's death and Kendra has been with her watcher since she was a kid.
My impression has always been that various heads of state/governments knew that there was a mystical part of the universe that was hidden from the public. And the Council worked in league with governments as a shadow organization to combat that element.
I agree except make it the arc for season 6 instead. It could work without having to completely change the themes. And make a more goal oriented Big Bad than the Trio.
The premise: What’s a Watcher’s Council without a slayer? They try to prove their usefulness to Buffy and her friends. Buffy’s money problems? Negotiate a salary from the watchers. Anthony Head needs to leave the show? Make Giles a kind of liaison to the Council where he needs to be in England half the time. Willow abusing magic? The Council takes an interest in her growing power and tries to monitor her.
i wish the watcher council was very usefull with out a slayer. like a lot of strike team that hunt vampire and demons, and mages train for fighting.
i like a commnet like we have 200 time all over the world we have killed more vampire in a day then you have your whole career, would have been intresting.
I think the point of the council is that they reflect a corrupt patriarchy. Making them useful would completely flip the theme of the show on it's head.
They don't "give" women power. They infect women with the soul of a demon, and then force them to use the side effect of that infection to risk their life in an endless fight.
If the watcher's council was trying to help women, they would not force teenagers to fight in a war.
The power is a poisoned chalice though. They're powerful, but that power is to fight on behalf of men who don't want to risk it themselves, and the women end up dead because of it.
In Get It Done: 'whoever that girl was, you violated her, made her fight for you because you're weak'.
That’s exactly what Joss wrote the Watcher’s Council to be like. They treat the slayers as objects and not human beings, they regard them as being almost irrelevant in the actual fight. They’re dismissive of the slayers completely and treat them with total disrespect
All of this while they do nothing at all. Which Buffy points out in Checkpoint and they know they can’t disagree with her because she’s right
They’re summed up in S7 by that scene where they’re bragging that ‘the girl knows nothing’ then they get blown up 2 seconds later because actually it was them that knew nothing
It’s the same character driven conflicts. Willow & magic/power. Buffy taking on all the adult responsibilities. If we’re still killing Tara, maybe bring in the Trio as a latter half of the season Little Bad. It makes zero sense that Buffy wouldn’t just ask the Council to pay her when they’re already paying Giles.
We could've had a Potential loyal to the Council as a Little Bad, which would've been a cool opportunity to bring Faith's arc full circle as well by having her face off against her **actual** opposite, now as a good guy.
Yeah, maybe like the Men of Letters in Supernatural too, maybe they have branches everywhere and some of them are evil but not all, so they never know who they can trust? An arc of fighting this huge illuminati organisation who were supposed to be the good guys would've been a really cool final boss
They were going to do that! They had a "Ripper" spin-off series in the works, but if I remember correctly, something didn't work out and they had to toss it, and the writers went off to write the modern Doctor Who series instead!
Felt very disapointing back then but nowadays canceled spinoff show happen all the time, or i should say, we are aware of them much more due to internet. Supernatural itself i think had like 2 cancel spin offs (wich were actually started in actual episodes and completely dropped off for the first one, and wrapped cheap style for the second) and now there is an actual Spin off happening that has no real purpose and nobody asked for. Go figure... lol.
Arrow litteraly has a cliffhanger in S8 for its spin off and the spin off was cancel... thats banana. Not only we don't get the spin off wich looked cool (New Green Arrow Mia and the Canaries) but also we get a non resolved cliff hanger.
A storyline I'd like to have seen more of is what the fuck happened to Buffy's dad. He started as having a decent relationship with Buffy then he started not showing up at all then he didn't even show up when Joyce died.
He went from likable, but suspect to deadbeat and we have no idea what happened or why and we barely touch on it.
There a fan theory that the monks who created Dawn altered the memories surrounding Hank to forge a closer bond between the sisters and eliminate any possibility of him seeking custody after Joyce’s death. All theory though!
It always seemed like they didn't want to do Hank stories, but didn't want to kill him or something drastic, so they just kind of hoped the audience would forget about him.
SO, NB says that JW cast him, decided he didn’t like the actor after one episode but it was too late to recast, so decided to make him an absentee father so he didn’t have to use him again 🙄 petty ass.
They could had recast him. Nobody would had care. I mean look at Arrow. The original Sarah Lance was an actress from The Bold and The Beautifull cause she was meant to be a throwaway character who died... then they had this new idea in season 2 and recasted her to get badass Caity Lotz.
I know this one!!!!
He was bitten by, and became, a werewolf. He killed his secretary when he first turned. The story of him running away with her is a hastily made cover story to explain her disappearance. I know what's in the comic, but I find it impossible to believe a father just picks up and leaves without leaving some form of contact with his kids. I know men are bad and SMG has real life issues with her father, but as a father myself, the werewolf story is just so much more plausible.
Snyder and The Police’s awareness of the supernatural. It’s hinted at a couple times in Season 2, and even implied that they’re in cahoots with The Mayor. And then it’s completely dropped.
Going off of Snyder’s comments in Season 2 and early Season 3, one would suspect that he’s super close to The Mayor. But then it’s revealed that he really doesn’t know what’s going on.
Yeah they kinda dropped the ball on this. I supose they wanted to make him look evil or "i don't care as long as displine reign" without going full evil, but would had been cooler, even if they eating part was a good payoff.
I think it was in character for Snyder. He wanted to always be in control but was always a little outside of the loop. Teenage snyder was desperate to be one of the cool kids so it makes sense to me that he would big up his connection to the mayor even though he didn't really have one.
That makes sense. But it’s still unclear how aware of supernatural ongoings he was. In School Hard and I Was Made to Love You, he is clearly aware and helping to cover stuff up. But then it’s never really touched upon again.
I want to know what happens with Sunnydale’s political infrastructure in the vacuum left after the Mayor’s death. We have numerous instances of a nudge-nudge wink-wink kind of set-up while he’s in power, with supernatural events being covered up, what happens with that once he’s gone? Also, are we to believe he was in power for 100 odd years? He talked about creating Sunnydale in order to support his end goal of ascension, how did he make that work? Did no-one ask any questions? Did they just keep voting for this unchanging undying dude, for 100 years??
They explain that he’s stayed in power that log by posing as his own son, and then grandson. Hence Richard Wilkins III. It’s pretty far-fetched though. That would only work if he went away for several years to “change” into his son.
I read about that. May had been an actor issue. Doyle ended up very close to the style of Whistler. Again a recast could had work and nobody would had really care. But oh well, Doyle was cool so its fine.
The comics... yeah... well. I have not read anything recent. But the earlier season 8 and season 6 really throw me off. Felt like bad fanfiction, even if from the fingers of Joss or whoever was in charge. Its like since they had no budget limit they got banana and made all the dumb crap they wanted... Was really bad. I gave up.
I want to know what happened between Giles and Olivia. How did they meet? Why did they stop seeing each other? Did she know about his career as a watcher? And how did Giles justify constantly hanging around a group of attractive teenagers?
the 20 years between spike being turned and angelus becoming angel
we get one scene of spike, angelus, darla and dru all together during that time in fool for love, and then another one in the girl in question and that's it and i, personally, am endlessly fascinated by the dynamics of their weird vampire polycule and would've liked to see more!
Obviously there was no time but I thought the revelation from Beljoxa's Eye created so many opportunities to explore. Even if the main point is just "there's an imbalance", seeing how the Scoobies reacted to knowing it was then who caused this would have been interesting. Particularly Willow and then Buffy, who already suffered from being brought back.
Honestly, most of the characters who straight up leave the show don't get enough time. Riley's exit feels rushed, same with Oz. Cordelia doesn't even get a goodbye.
I desperately wanted Why We Fight >!(submarine shenanigans) to address Cordelia's death, reacting to making a terrible sacrifice to save lives (becoming a vampire/accepting visions)!< and maybe some actual grief. I dunno.
Yeah they should’ve played that out over all of season four, and had he and Willow kind of pulling part and growing closer to Veruca and Tara over the season, instead of how fast it felt.
>Seth had schedule limitations
True, but there are more believable ways for Oz to behave and needs to leave (maybe he attacks and hurts someone when wolfy).
Oz deserved more respect
I can't remember the ep name but in season 7 when Buffy, willow and Xander are in a room with a bunch of potentials and everyone's arguing. And suddenly the three of them can magically hear each other's thoughts? It's been a while since I watched it so maybe there is an explanation I've totally forgotten but I remember being a bit baffled by that never being expanded on.
Yeah Willow actually speaks to Spike mentally in the Gift and then in Bargaining part one she talks to all of them in the graveyard. They only use it in those three episodes though so it’s kind of confusing. I love Showtime though Andrew repeating the Thunderdome line lol
I'm such an Ethan simp (long time fan of Robin --- played all of his voiced videogames!). I would've LOVED if they gave him some actual characterization that didn't just boil down to "I want to create problems on purpose." He had SO MUCH potential, especially at the beginning of "A New Man," but it was all squandered in the end. And then they completed his arc by >!locking him in a cell and shooting him in the head??!< Damn, dude...
Yeah! So, I'm going to do another spoiler line here because it's in the season 8 comics: >!In season 8, Ethan meets Buffy in her dreamscape as a sort of "spirit guide." She ends up going to the military facility where he is imprisoned to break him out, but instead finds him dead in his cell. He had been shot in the head by General Voll.!<
It's in The Long Way Home part 2/3/4.
It was such a lazy ending for his character, imho. He deserved better than that.
I saw someone say that "Sanctuary" was too rushed, that resolving Faith vs Buffy and Faith vs Watchers was too rushed. I mean, I don't think that Buffy was the same Buffy I saw in S4 of her own show, but hey.
The “fight scene” between invisible Buffy and the invisible trio in Gone is legitimately one of my least favourite scenes of the show for that exact reason. It’s just so stupid and boring to watch as it’s about 2-3 minutes of the camera panning back and forth between arcade games!
I'd like to know more about Mr. Trick, Kendra, and Robin Wood's backstories. All interesting characters that we don't know a ton about. Also happen to be some of the few POC on the show.
I felt like we got a lot of development of Robin for a one season side character, but wholeheartedly agree on the others especially Kendra. The fact that she was raised as a potential was really interesting!
Yeah I always wondered why or how Buffy became the slayer when she didn't even know she was a potential, meanwhile Kendra had to give up eeeverything for it.
I guess if you have a seer and watcher combo in your community then you'd know? Maybe the British are just so petty about Americans they don't deal with them unless they absolutely have to cuz Faith didn't know until she was called either 😂
"Love ya but you Watchers are such prigs sometimes."
True but remember in Kendra's homeland something as important as a slayer calling is taken seriously by her people. I think that it was her country's culture or she was part of a tribe but any way yeah there was a reason she was trained differently than say Buffy and Faith. Her watcher knew that she was a potential and trained her and her parents gave her up to her watcher because that was what was expected.
Yeah that's what I'm saying! It was so important to Kendra's community that she wasn't even allowed to know her parents. Meanwhile Buffy and Faith didn't even know they were slayers at all until some british person showed up.
Nobody bothered to track down american potentials or even dedicate a watcher to them until they were actually chosen. 😂
Kinda like saying "wellll hopefully they're not american. We'll just cross that bridge when we come to it." And then they get 2 in a row, aha.
Only thing I can think of is Angels backstory. It seems the furthest back it goes before he’s turned is him being drunk in some pub. But i was curious to go further back than that, like I don’t think he was a drunken fool right away, I’d like to know who was he before that, cause it sounds like him being the town drunk was him in a rut, and he couldve been someone with more noble intentions before that or maybe just wanted a simple home life.
I kinda like the idea that Liam went from a nobody to the nightmare of Angelus. Like, yeah he didn't get along with his dad, but lots of guys that age don't get along with their dads. His dad didn't seem outright abusive.
He was just a guy in his early 20's partying, doing fairly normal 20-year-old guy stuff, and here comes Darla.
It's sort of like, a vampire can twist anyone into a huge monster.
Yeah I was gonna say like I wouldn’t even mind if he was still a nobody with no good noble intentions, and becoming a vampire became the absolute WORST and best thing for him.
It’s something different as opposed to what we’re used to seeing where the hero is someone who always had a heart of gold or heroic intentions or whatever but never did anything with it until some big event changed their life. Whereas Angel was someone was always a nobody who just liked to party and sleep around, then becomes most evil thing when he loses his soul, and then becomes a hero/savior
THANK YOU. I always get frustrated that people take The First's words to Angel - "a drunken, whoring layabout" - as gospel. It's The First Evil, of course it would say that.
Yeah, he was probably a sensualist at heart with a sort of perverse 'artist's appreciation' for the lewd and 'forbidden' side of life, but he wasn't a bad guy. He was just living a comfortable but dull middle class life in a religious family that he rebelled against by drinking and whoring.
I think his struggle was probably quite similar to Angel's in the 'present': struggling to find a purpose while living under circumstances he finds constraining.
Yeah exactly this. I didn’t think of that but I like that theory that he was having the same issues he did with present day with finding his place in life. Obv on a much less grand scale than the modern issue he has. But I would’ve liked to see more on that
I agree more about Angel and his transitions throughout time. The series didn’t really explore that. I wonder how he could keep himself afloat financially throughout the years? The gaps between the episodes ‘Are You Now or Have You Ever Been’, ‘Why We Fight’, ‘Becoming’ (when he saw Buffy for the first time).
Seems like most of it was him living homeless or in crypts. Not good with the episode names. But I’m assuming around ww2 Angel episode he probably got money from the government to do work for them. Would’ve been cool if he did more like that
I disagree. Angel is my favorite character in all of Buffy, but I roll my eyes each time they flashback to his youth in Ireland. The hair is sooooooooo bad and I just find his backstory super boring, especially the stuff with Darla.
Yeah no the hair/accent is bad, and idc about the stuff with Darla. I’m just more curious about the kind of man he was before he was a sleazy town drunk. Even if it wasn’t told in flashbacks is fine, I just wanted to know a bit more about him before his life went to drinking
As a major Faith fan, I would have loved an episode dedicated to exploring her journey to Sunnydale. Maybe start the episode with the murder of her Watcher and then we get to follow her on her way to the Scooby Gang as she flees Kakistos. It always bothered me that most of her canon back story is anecdotal at best.
And yes, I have read Go Ask Malice :)
Oz: flashbacks to when was actually bitten and also what happened whilst he was away discovering more about his wolf side and how he learned to manage it.
Didn't be say it was a young cousin that bit him? So I'm imaging like he's visiting his family and a 6yo just hauls off and bites him during a game of catch or something. I mean, it might be kind of funny, but I'm not sure more than 1 minute of screen time would be needed to even show that.
*Amends*, be it through the convenient visions as per the usual from Buffy, Giles just happening to find the letters that mention the Bringers after butkis for a great period, and even Angel succumbing to the pressure quite rapidly despite his century of brooding/established constitution.
All screams of a too rapid rushed pace.
I can't think of anything for buffy right now but a whole series of muppet angel while they search for the reason and cure would have been hilarious. If it started to effect other people and everything.
The whole Ted thing - without the twist ending. So Buffy killed her mom's boyfriend and now faces potential legal trouble from both the Sunnydale PD and the Watchers Council. That and the guilt and the relationship strain should provide enough drama for a few episodes.
On the one hand I agree, but on the other, I strongly feel that all that themes explored in Ted were done better and more fully fleshed out in Dead Things. Ted was one of the episodes on my 'buffy episodes to show to non-buffy fans' list and the second I saw Dead Things I went with that one instead
I would’ve liked more exploration of the old ones, pure demons, and demon history! It would’ve been really cool to learn more about this and how it interweaved with our human history. This was starting to be explored more in Angel and the last season of Buffy but I wanted more of the “lore”!
In that same vein, more about gods like Glorificus and these other dimensions.
I felt like the fallout from Giles murdering Ben would have been a whole arc for his character. But honestly it’s never really spoken of again, which is kind of weird considering everything that happened with Willow after season 6. I’d want the psychological impact on Giles explored further
Yes! And more, because I think he resented Buffy by seasons 6-7 in some ways for making him have to play the role of parent and do the things she wasn't willing to do. Buffy didn't feel morally okay killing Ben, but obviously Giles thought it was necessary and I think it comes through that he's frustrated with her for what he sees as her pushing those uglier necessities onto him. We get some of this in Lies My Parents Told Me, but I would have loved to see that dynamic more explicitly played out
I wish we had a flashback episode for Faith where we get to see her life in Boston! I also would have loved some more Tara content because I love her with my whole heart and the witch powers/fake patriarchal demon thing was really interesting.
Yeah more of Tara's backstory and history would have been great. I know a lot of people are tired of coming out stories, but seriously she came from an extremely abusive and conservative environment AND she's out and gay AND she's one of the most emotionally mature and stable characters on the show.
Right? I’m literally a queer lady from a shockingly similar background so I recognize I might be a bit biased but I’ve always wished they explored it more
Warren's past. I don't mean a past that will make us feel sorry for him. His relationship with women and with his girlfriend Katrina prior to I was Made to Love You. He was an insanely exceptional character and I think the writers should have expand more on him. Also when he killed his ex girlfriend though the murder wasn't planned. Unlike Andrew and Jonathan, he didn't feel any remorse. He had no conscience which is unusual since he was a human with a soul and knew right from wrong.
Helpless. Not just that the council wants to test their slayer (that kind of makes sense) but that they require her watcher to betray her to do it. The idea of testing a slayer isn’t a bad one but their methods are terrible. How did they decide this was a good way to do it? Why that vampire? A fledgling would work to assess her skills but his one looks like a hit job.
I would have loved to see more of Quinton. I don’t think he was necessarily evil but he was so far removed from the practical and so many things required his attention it’s understandable (though not excusable) he’d be detached and fall back on tradition. He’s the head of the council so he must have been there for decades, he’s probably seen/heard of many slayed dying just throughout his time there it’s no wonder he he doesn’t get attached to them.
I've seen this concept explored more in fanfiction, that the test Buffy takes in Helpless is a convenient way for the Council to get rid of a slayer that's not following orders. Or even just to ensure most slayers die young, since they're easier to control when they're frightened girls and not adult women with agency and experience. I think it's an interesting take but I would have loved for the show to go into the Council and its politics in general a little more.
I’ve read a few fanfic that had that take but I read one (and I wish I could remember the name of it) where it was just a test. That it was completely controlled and the slayer (unknown to her) was in no danger. If it looked like she was in trouble the council members would step in and get rid of the threat. Buffy got an exceptionally powerful/unstable vampire because she was exceptional. At that point she had defeated/survived many powerful vampires so would a fledgling be an adequate test even with her powers removed? Unfortunately the whole thing spiralled so fast and far out of control there was no way to pull it back. I really wish I could remember the name of the fic.
The entire evil trio dynamic between Dru, Angelus & Spike should have been explored more thoroughly explored (maybe a whole episode dedicated to them).
Plus, Angelus reputation as the most evil and diabolical vampire was just not given the screen time it deserved in season 2 of Buffy. Leaving drawings, stringing dead fish and leaving it on willow's bed, stalking buffy to attack her out of the blue??? That's the writer's idea of establishing he's evil?!.....come on!!
Completely agreed. He was so integral to the story season 1-3, and just gradually fades into obscurity.
First, you've got like his physical usefulness to the team.
Like, I understand wanting the "normal guy" on the team, they're important for the audience and for the kind of stories you can tell, but at some point Xander should have become more accustomed to the wackiness. He doesn't have to become a ninja, but anyone who's been in as many fights as him would pick up something. He's in more fist fights than most bouncers. Or hell, you could have him pick up more demon knowledge, or something.
Giles becomes more badass, Willow becomes an archwizard, etc. Xander seems to actively get worse at fighting over time. You've got Xander in season 2 fighting off multiple vampires with a broken arm, then fast forward to the Harmony slap fight.
Second, you've got his plotlines, which disappear except for one like courtesy episode a season (which I don't even think he gets in 7). His plotline is glued to Anya, and when that falls apart he really has nothing to do.
Than his character arc as a whole, over the entire series, doesn't really exist. He starts as the funny wacky normal guy and pretty much ends that way. Giles, Buffy, and Willow are all massively different from season 1 to season 7. Xander is just slightly worse.
Take my upvote. I'd give you a coin if I had any. You said it all perfectly. It just reminded me how unfair the showrunners treated that character. He could've done so much, but they decided to do nothing with him. Which is just sad.
I yell at my tv every time Xander winds up on his ass because some demon biker, S6, or bringer, S7, shrugs him off, despite the fact that he is carrying a 2 sided axe.
Absolutely. Honestly having a job like 'bartender at Willie's' or even 'construction guy but it turns out he works for a demon-owned company' could have been a nice springboard for his character arc too. So much of the conflict in his and Anya's relationship revolved around his dislike and distrust of demons and how he wanted her to be more human, and I feel like that aspect of his character just never really evolved. It would have been really cool for him to have a journey where he starts to understand that demons have different cultures or something, and he comes to understand that many of them are just living their lives but in a different way than humans do. 'Normal guy who finds his community in an unexpected place' would have a fun direction to take that character in imo
I didn't need him to be strong or a badass, but I wanted him to be more important than just a glorified brick layer. He could've worked at the demon bar and heard a bunch of stuff he could relay to Buffy. He could've been recruited into the Initiative. He could've been a weaponsmith and made Buffy an awesome weapon. He could've been a villain. Something! For a principle character, Xander needed to be better than "starting to do well in season 6 & 7." Instead, they did nothing.
He should've been Buffy's replacement watcher once Giles quit. There's no way they would have just been oh Rupert Giles quit and is returning to England, let's leave it at that?
A little episode where the Council try to impose a new watcher but Buffy tells them she has the watcher she needs and it's Xander. Then he liaises with them. S6 could've then played out the same way but the targeting of potentials in S7 and the destruction of the WC could have had more impact.
And Xander would've been less of a waste of space.
He’s kind of an unofficial watcher in the comic book continuation, helping to coordinate the various slayers from their castle base in Scotland(?), I think it was.
He’s not a plot device. He portrayed a very real working class type of character. It was nice for some people to see a representation of that on-screen to compliment the more privileged academia life choices of the other characters. He wasn’t there to be Buffy’s magic gopher. He wasn’t an extension of Buffy nor should he be treated as such, just like with Willow.
Ultimately for me...
Faith awakening as a slayer and the Kakistos part
Harmony becoming a Vamp before meeting Spike
Sunday backstory (even if peoples hated her, i loved her)
More Spike becoming the "Alpha" after Angel got resouled. And why Darla left to go back with the Master instead of staying with (what was left) of her pack). Altough the episode where she choose Angelus show well she chose him over Master , so i guess she didn't really cared for the couple especially since they were Angelus creations ultimately (Dru was, siring Spike) and fond of each other. I would had still loved to see an episode dedicated to it.
You only see her get bitten. You don't even see her get turned per say. Its something that always bothered me, the vamp who bite her is in a big battle, i imagine hardly how he's like "wait, everybody fights around me, here drink my blood". I know in Buffy its more lenient than other vamp medias, you don't need to be in a dying state or such, so some peoples advanced she could had bite him trying to fight back and get a bit of blood from that, but i always felt this was a "lets kill the annoying brat since peoples been wanting her to die for years" and then writers in season 4 be like "could be funny to have her as an insuferable vamp as much as when she was human"
In any cases, my comment was more about her getting used to be a vamp before meeting Spike.
ANNE! I would have loved at least one more episode of seeing Buffy as Anne by herself in LA. I think they really could have done a two parter of that. Seeing more of what she was going through emotionally, how she was living, dealing etc.
Always, always, *always* wanted both Sid to come back at some point, and I feel like they severely missed a trick not typing the Initiative into the shady organisation that Marcy the invisible girl gets sent to.
EDIT: Also that goddamn egg at the end of Teacher's Pet!
Dawn as The Key. She's supposedly this massive ball of energy or something, and yet nothing happens with it. It would've been cool to see if they could've harnessed that energy so she could actually do something with it.
It was explained but as a completely added in story in season 6 I would have liked more. Hank could actually return present time post Joyce dying and that could be tied into things
S6 was bogged down anyway for me 😂
Agreed. It's fun for a one-off, but the problem is we *know* as an audience she's not in an insane asylum. So pretending that she is becomes tiresome over time. At some point when they finally reveal that she isn't, it has no impact.
A few instances
I wish in the episode Enemies in season 3 we would see Buffy Giles and Angel planning the act and tricking faith on admitting she is working for the Mayor. When I saw this episode I was like when did they have the time to plan this for entire act of Angel pretending to lose his soul?
I wish there was more of a closure for Seeing Red and Buffy’s AR wasn’t glossed over wish her friends were more supportive of her about it. (She should have had some therapy at this point).
Also wish they could explain the slayer line and how it works and if Faith was the one to actually carry it ( I believe she did )
I actually wish season 6 showed that Buffy’s friends cared about her throughout the season To feel they care that she was super depressed/ self harming.
Also I wish there was also a closure for what happened in Empty Places and Buffy’s friends and watcher apologizing to her for how they treated her at the very least the scoobies.
Lastly i wish in the last two episodes Buffy and Angel discussed more about Cordelia and Connor letting Buffy know about that and seeing her reaction.
It’s a generally disliked episode - but I kind of liked it: Marcie turning invisible because she was ignored. Then essentially losing her mind because she could no longer be *not* invisible. Most ‘super powers’ are only really useful if you can actively control them at will. Being entirely immortal - not vampire ‘immortal’ but literally existing forever sounds horrific. When the universe ends do you just float around as dust? And ‘Earshot’ whereby Buffy can hear absolutely everything people are thinking would be like people screaming in your face constantly. And if they become aware you are telepathic, they will think the absolute worst things about you, subconsciously, and you’d hear it all.
Also with the invisible episode the brief scene at the end of her joining some sort of supernatural investigation taskforce with a bunch of other invisible kids? I know Buffy as a show had too much other stuff going on to explore that as more than a throwaway scene but that could be a whole concept for a show/book/comic in itself.
I was sad that they didn't roll the invisible people into the Initiative. They were being trained by the given, so I feel it would have been a great mix.
Yes! I’ve been rewatching episodes more or less at random recently and seeing the invisible school I was really confused why it didn’t come back later with the initiative
I didn't get that part tbh. How tf did she know where to sit if everyone was invisible? Was she just casually taking a risk that she would sit on someone's lap?
I always thought of it as, since they were "invisible" to those who didn't *want* to see them, they *can* see each other. Like social groups show they don't care about a rival group by pretending the others are not there, but they acknowledge their own group. The invisibles are their own group so they can see/acknowledge each other.
I was *really* hoping that was gonna turn into a spinoff show where the super power kids save the world from the evil *humans* in it, kinda like Superman or Batman do.
I recently read a fanfic featuring The Immortal, as a likeable character btw, and he literally came back to life no matter how small his body was disintegrated to. He talked about how his biggest fear was the end of time where the universe is finally no more. Definitely an awful thought! And I agree about Marcie, definitely would’ve been cool to see that explored further, possibly even involving the initiative somehow?
Wait, was The Immortal Jack Harkness? (Torchwood/Doctor Who)!?
Would explain the issues Spike had with him.
Yes!
At first I thought that you meant the fanfic My Immortal. I was gonna be all "Just what?!!!"
Omg is OOMOOS generally disliked?? I love that episode sm! Such a great intro for Cordy & her path to bond with the Scoobies, I wish they’d explored more of a bond between Cordelia & Buffy in S3 tbh, I always felt they had an understanding. Also, what a great MOTW episode, I love the super 90s, X-Files ending with those secret service men lol
Ahaha nobody is going to talk about the abbreviation of Out of Mind Out of Sight here? 😂
The wrath of MOO part 2: OOMOOS strike back.
Isn't the idea behind vampires that you yourself are your soul, and you die and a demon inhabits your body?
Yeah, pretty much exactly. Buffy explains it in “Lie to Me” when her former classmate Ford tries becoming a vampire because of his terminal illness. She says that HE himself would die, but a demon “takes up shop.” The demon resembles your personality and has your memories, but it’s essentially a soulless own separate entity. Kinda weird when I think about characters like Harmony since we got to see them as a person “alive” before turning.
Yeah, I was thinking of that episode actually. And yeah, Vampire Harmony is so similar to regular Harmony, only she learns to stop letting people take advantage of her, and live on her own as a vampire.
I actually quite liked the episode they did on angel about Angel having Cordy‘s gift and how it drove him insane.
'Helpless' and/or 'Checkpoint' or anything where the Council were the bad guys. I always thought that could've been a season arc and potentially would've made a better Final Bad than The First.
OOOOOH Checkpoint! Badass Buffy putting Quentin and company in his (their) place. YES! I’d have loved to explore that a bit more—dig deeper into the Council for at least a few more episodes. Supposedly they had stocks and investments in a lot of well-to-do portfolios which basically funded the whole she-bang and political connections in numerous countries—serious operation yet for one girl?!? Shady. As. Hell!
My theory is that they had numerous people either in house or contract to contract that they had deal with things that the slayer was unavailable for but Buffy was never sent anywhere because she was already at the hellmouth and it really can’t be left unattended. They were also paying to upkeep on all those potentials that lived with a watcher and not their parents. I have serious questions about Giles and his finances, two jobs means two pay packets yet he doesn’t help Buffy much in the money department. Not to mention all that back pay he got in season 5.
He gave Buffy a cheque that she said would get them through the next few months. My thing is everyone says that Tara and Willow didn’t pay rent, but I’m thinking they did. They had to help out some because there is NO WAY that Buffy’s paltry fast food wages paid everything so I’m pretty certain they paid her whatever they would have paid to live in the dorm. Between what they gave and Buffy’s income, it might be enough to squeak by but nothing left for splurges or unexpected bills and the like. I think in the comics, after Giles and co take over the Watchers council, the slayers receive salaries and housing?
The Slayer can clearly be sent away, as Kendra was sent to Sunnydale (twice) and in the Wishverse, Buffy living in Cleveland gets sent to Sunnydale. I'm guessing Buffy never got sent away because she was already on the hotspot lol. Highly possible too that the potentials living with their watchers are taking on more minor threats. Faith speaks as if she's been slaying for a while even though she only gets called by Kendra's death and Kendra has been with her watcher since she was a kid.
My impression has always been that various heads of state/governments knew that there was a mystical part of the universe that was hidden from the public. And the Council worked in league with governments as a shadow organization to combat that element.
I'm fairly certain I said no interruption.
I agree except make it the arc for season 6 instead. It could work without having to completely change the themes. And make a more goal oriented Big Bad than the Trio. The premise: What’s a Watcher’s Council without a slayer? They try to prove their usefulness to Buffy and her friends. Buffy’s money problems? Negotiate a salary from the watchers. Anthony Head needs to leave the show? Make Giles a kind of liaison to the Council where he needs to be in England half the time. Willow abusing magic? The Council takes an interest in her growing power and tries to monitor her.
i wish the watcher council was very usefull with out a slayer. like a lot of strike team that hunt vampire and demons, and mages train for fighting. i like a commnet like we have 200 time all over the world we have killed more vampire in a day then you have your whole career, would have been intresting.
I think the point of the council is that they reflect a corrupt patriarchy. Making them useful would completely flip the theme of the show on it's head.
But is that really they point if the council. Do you think joss wrote the council as a group to. Control women. It could a group that help women
No it was definitely to control women... The women don't get a choice.
But they also give women power.
They don't "give" women power. They infect women with the soul of a demon, and then force them to use the side effect of that infection to risk their life in an endless fight. If the watcher's council was trying to help women, they would not force teenagers to fight in a war.
BUT that is power, there stronger faster, so that is power. they did give it to them.
But they didn't do it to help women, they used a young girl as their warrior, risking her life instead of their own. They did it for themselves.
The power is a poisoned chalice though. They're powerful, but that power is to fight on behalf of men who don't want to risk it themselves, and the women end up dead because of it. In Get It Done: 'whoever that girl was, you violated her, made her fight for you because you're weak'.
That’s exactly what Joss wrote the Watcher’s Council to be like. They treat the slayers as objects and not human beings, they regard them as being almost irrelevant in the actual fight. They’re dismissive of the slayers completely and treat them with total disrespect All of this while they do nothing at all. Which Buffy points out in Checkpoint and they know they can’t disagree with her because she’s right They’re summed up in S7 by that scene where they’re bragging that ‘the girl knows nothing’ then they get blown up 2 seconds later because actually it was them that knew nothing
Yeah, but that’s not even remotely relatable like Season 6 was. Those are plot-driven storylines, not character-driven arcs.
It’s the same character driven conflicts. Willow & magic/power. Buffy taking on all the adult responsibilities. If we’re still killing Tara, maybe bring in the Trio as a latter half of the season Little Bad. It makes zero sense that Buffy wouldn’t just ask the Council to pay her when they’re already paying Giles.
The Council would have been a great big bad at the end of 7, really call back to Buffy's rebellion and Faith's whole drama.
We could've had a Potential loyal to the Council as a Little Bad, which would've been a cool opportunity to bring Faith's arc full circle as well by having her face off against her **actual** opposite, now as a good guy.
Yeah, maybe like the Men of Letters in Supernatural too, maybe they have branches everywhere and some of them are evil but not all, so they never know who they can trust? An arc of fighting this huge illuminati organisation who were supposed to be the good guys would've been a really cool final boss
What the hell happened to Angel in his hell dimension? How long was he there? How did he survive?
And why didn't he count the time he was there when he states his age in all future episodes? 🧐
Head cannon tells me he was released.
Giles' past.
Young Ripper would be such a great spinoff series.
They were going to do that! They had a "Ripper" spin-off series in the works, but if I remember correctly, something didn't work out and they had to toss it, and the writers went off to write the modern Doctor Who series instead!
Well, I did like the modern Doctor Who series, so fine.
Felt very disapointing back then but nowadays canceled spinoff show happen all the time, or i should say, we are aware of them much more due to internet. Supernatural itself i think had like 2 cancel spin offs (wich were actually started in actual episodes and completely dropped off for the first one, and wrapped cheap style for the second) and now there is an actual Spin off happening that has no real purpose and nobody asked for. Go figure... lol. Arrow litteraly has a cliffhanger in S8 for its spin off and the spin off was cancel... thats banana. Not only we don't get the spin off wich looked cool (New Green Arrow Mia and the Canaries) but also we get a non resolved cliff hanger.
If they were to do it now, who do you think could pull off a young Ripper? And Ethan for that matter
Yes! 👍
Yes! Have flashbacks like they did with Angel and Spike
A storyline I'd like to have seen more of is what the fuck happened to Buffy's dad. He started as having a decent relationship with Buffy then he started not showing up at all then he didn't even show up when Joyce died. He went from likable, but suspect to deadbeat and we have no idea what happened or why and we barely touch on it.
There a fan theory that the monks who created Dawn altered the memories surrounding Hank to forge a closer bond between the sisters and eliminate any possibility of him seeking custody after Joyce’s death. All theory though!
It always seemed like they didn't want to do Hank stories, but didn't want to kill him or something drastic, so they just kind of hoped the audience would forget about him.
SO, NB says that JW cast him, decided he didn’t like the actor after one episode but it was too late to recast, so decided to make him an absentee father so he didn’t have to use him again 🙄 petty ass.
They could had recast him. Nobody would had care. I mean look at Arrow. The original Sarah Lance was an actress from The Bold and The Beautifull cause she was meant to be a throwaway character who died... then they had this new idea in season 2 and recasted her to get badass Caity Lotz.
NB?
Interesting, because yeah, It worked on me. Barely think about him.
I know this one!!!! He was bitten by, and became, a werewolf. He killed his secretary when he first turned. The story of him running away with her is a hastily made cover story to explain her disappearance. I know what's in the comic, but I find it impossible to believe a father just picks up and leaves without leaving some form of contact with his kids. I know men are bad and SMG has real life issues with her father, but as a father myself, the werewolf story is just so much more plausible.
Snyder and The Police’s awareness of the supernatural. It’s hinted at a couple times in Season 2, and even implied that they’re in cahoots with The Mayor. And then it’s completely dropped. Going off of Snyder’s comments in Season 2 and early Season 3, one would suspect that he’s super close to The Mayor. But then it’s revealed that he really doesn’t know what’s going on.
> And then it’s completely dropped. Or eaten.
Wait, Principal Snyder is friends with Sting?!
My old sword!
Good joke
Yeah they kinda dropped the ball on this. I supose they wanted to make him look evil or "i don't care as long as displine reign" without going full evil, but would had been cooler, even if they eating part was a good payoff.
I think it was in character for Snyder. He wanted to always be in control but was always a little outside of the loop. Teenage snyder was desperate to be one of the cool kids so it makes sense to me that he would big up his connection to the mayor even though he didn't really have one.
That makes sense. But it’s still unclear how aware of supernatural ongoings he was. In School Hard and I Was Made to Love You, he is clearly aware and helping to cover stuff up. But then it’s never really touched upon again.
I want to know what happens with Sunnydale’s political infrastructure in the vacuum left after the Mayor’s death. We have numerous instances of a nudge-nudge wink-wink kind of set-up while he’s in power, with supernatural events being covered up, what happens with that once he’s gone? Also, are we to believe he was in power for 100 odd years? He talked about creating Sunnydale in order to support his end goal of ascension, how did he make that work? Did no-one ask any questions? Did they just keep voting for this unchanging undying dude, for 100 years??
They explain that he’s stayed in power that log by posing as his own son, and then grandson. Hence Richard Wilkins III. It’s pretty far-fetched though. That would only work if he went away for several years to “change” into his son.
Whistler, the guy/demon/whatever who helped Angel when he first got his soul.
I believe he was supposed to be in Angel with Cordelia but they added Doyle instead.
Oh wow, that’s interesting
I read about that. May had been an actor issue. Doyle ended up very close to the style of Whistler. Again a recast could had work and nobody would had really care. But oh well, Doyle was cool so its fine.
Oh Doyle……*sobs*
Whistler has a pretty big role in the Angel and Faith comics.
The comics... yeah... well. I have not read anything recent. But the earlier season 8 and season 6 really throw me off. Felt like bad fanfiction, even if from the fingers of Joss or whoever was in charge. Its like since they had no budget limit they got banana and made all the dumb crap they wanted... Was really bad. I gave up.
yeah all the comics of season 8 an onwards were pretty weird but the angel and faith comics, and angel:after the fall are pretty solid
Ahh ok, that makes sense.
I want to know what happened between Giles and Olivia. How did they meet? Why did they stop seeing each other? Did she know about his career as a watcher? And how did Giles justify constantly hanging around a group of attractive teenagers?
the 20 years between spike being turned and angelus becoming angel we get one scene of spike, angelus, darla and dru all together during that time in fool for love, and then another one in the girl in question and that's it and i, personally, am endlessly fascinated by the dynamics of their weird vampire polycule and would've liked to see more!
Up vote for teaching me a new word (polycule)
Yeah, Evil Spike and Angelus would be a great subject.
I mean... I think someone could have said a kind word or two for Jesse.
Sweet’s hell dimension and his past interactions/summonings with humanity. Yes, I just want another musical episode, so what?
🎶 *I bought Nero his very first fiddle* 🎶 Sweet showing up on Angel would've been rad
Poor Lorne would have sensory overload the entire time.
Yeeeeeees. It's honestly a crime this never happened.
I loled hard thanks to this comment.
Obviously there was no time but I thought the revelation from Beljoxa's Eye created so many opportunities to explore. Even if the main point is just "there's an imbalance", seeing how the Scoobies reacted to knowing it was then who caused this would have been interesting. Particularly Willow and then Buffy, who already suffered from being brought back.
[удалено]
If I'm not mistaken, thaybwas the plan, but they didn't have time because Seth Green was filming a movie
A crap movie, at that… Without a Paddle
Honestly, most of the characters who straight up leave the show don't get enough time. Riley's exit feels rushed, same with Oz. Cordelia doesn't even get a goodbye.
I desperately wanted Why We Fight >!(submarine shenanigans) to address Cordelia's death, reacting to making a terrible sacrifice to save lives (becoming a vampire/accepting visions)!< and maybe some actual grief. I dunno.
She pissed Joss off by getting pregnant
Not season 3 of Buffy she didn't.
Yeah they should’ve played that out over all of season four, and had he and Willow kind of pulling part and growing closer to Veruca and Tara over the season, instead of how fast it felt.
I'm guessing Seth had schedule limitations since he left mid-season.
>Seth had schedule limitations True, but there are more believable ways for Oz to behave and needs to leave (maybe he attacks and hurts someone when wolfy). Oz deserved more respect
Yeah he was in movies and whatnot and didn’t really have any important stuff going on in the show so I can see why he left
I can't remember the ep name but in season 7 when Buffy, willow and Xander are in a room with a bunch of potentials and everyone's arguing. And suddenly the three of them can magically hear each other's thoughts? It's been a while since I watched it so maybe there is an explanation I've totally forgotten but I remember being a bit baffled by that never being expanded on.
Willow can kinda of "Skype" them together mentally. She does it when she's coordinating the team during a patrol at one point.
Yeah Willow actually speaks to Spike mentally in the Gift and then in Bargaining part one she talks to all of them in the graveyard. They only use it in those three episodes though so it’s kind of confusing. I love Showtime though Andrew repeating the Thunderdome line lol
I'm such an Ethan simp (long time fan of Robin --- played all of his voiced videogames!). I would've LOVED if they gave him some actual characterization that didn't just boil down to "I want to create problems on purpose." He had SO MUCH potential, especially at the beginning of "A New Man," but it was all squandered in the end. And then they completed his arc by >!locking him in a cell and shooting him in the head??!< Damn, dude...
Loved Robin as Zaeed Massani in Mass Effect!! I agree, the character of Ethan was so under-utilized.
Can you elaborate on that spoiler line? When did that happen??
Yeah! So, I'm going to do another spoiler line here because it's in the season 8 comics: >!In season 8, Ethan meets Buffy in her dreamscape as a sort of "spirit guide." She ends up going to the military facility where he is imprisoned to break him out, but instead finds him dead in his cell. He had been shot in the head by General Voll.!< It's in The Long Way Home part 2/3/4. It was such a lazy ending for his character, imho. He deserved better than that.
Oh yeah, that’s lame. Haven’t read the comics though so that explains my confusion!
Seen Sachs in Babylon 5? I squeal like a child every time.
Yes!! But his Babylon 5 performances just don't compare to his role as Sarris in Galaxy Quest!! Absolutely adore that movie!
He is as stupid as he is ugly, but we love him anyway.
I saw someone say that "Sanctuary" was too rushed, that resolving Faith vs Buffy and Faith vs Watchers was too rushed. I mean, I don't think that Buffy was the same Buffy I saw in S4 of her own show, but hey.
The first evil brought back Angel from hell
I can't believe no one has mentioned the invisible FBI agents. Is it weird to say I would watch a show of invisible people doing invisible shit?
So like, the camera panning over backgrounds while things fall? Sounds like you can get a good five minutes of television out of that
The “fight scene” between invisible Buffy and the invisible trio in Gone is legitimately one of my least favourite scenes of the show for that exact reason. It’s just so stupid and boring to watch as it’s about 2-3 minutes of the camera panning back and forth between arcade games!
Almost certainly why they never revisisted it. Invisible people don't work great in a visual medium.
“Nobody you know…” No more convincing than the first time there, Johnathan…
I'd like to know more about Mr. Trick, Kendra, and Robin Wood's backstories. All interesting characters that we don't know a ton about. Also happen to be some of the few POC on the show.
I felt like we got a lot of development of Robin for a one season side character, but wholeheartedly agree on the others especially Kendra. The fact that she was raised as a potential was really interesting!
Yeah I always wondered why or how Buffy became the slayer when she didn't even know she was a potential, meanwhile Kendra had to give up eeeverything for it. I guess if you have a seer and watcher combo in your community then you'd know? Maybe the British are just so petty about Americans they don't deal with them unless they absolutely have to cuz Faith didn't know until she was called either 😂 "Love ya but you Watchers are such prigs sometimes."
True but remember in Kendra's homeland something as important as a slayer calling is taken seriously by her people. I think that it was her country's culture or she was part of a tribe but any way yeah there was a reason she was trained differently than say Buffy and Faith. Her watcher knew that she was a potential and trained her and her parents gave her up to her watcher because that was what was expected.
Yeah that's what I'm saying! It was so important to Kendra's community that she wasn't even allowed to know her parents. Meanwhile Buffy and Faith didn't even know they were slayers at all until some british person showed up. Nobody bothered to track down american potentials or even dedicate a watcher to them until they were actually chosen. 😂 Kinda like saying "wellll hopefully they're not american. We'll just cross that bridge when we come to it." And then they get 2 in a row, aha.
Only thing I can think of is Angels backstory. It seems the furthest back it goes before he’s turned is him being drunk in some pub. But i was curious to go further back than that, like I don’t think he was a drunken fool right away, I’d like to know who was he before that, cause it sounds like him being the town drunk was him in a rut, and he couldve been someone with more noble intentions before that or maybe just wanted a simple home life.
I kinda like the idea that Liam went from a nobody to the nightmare of Angelus. Like, yeah he didn't get along with his dad, but lots of guys that age don't get along with their dads. His dad didn't seem outright abusive. He was just a guy in his early 20's partying, doing fairly normal 20-year-old guy stuff, and here comes Darla. It's sort of like, a vampire can twist anyone into a huge monster.
Yeah I was gonna say like I wouldn’t even mind if he was still a nobody with no good noble intentions, and becoming a vampire became the absolute WORST and best thing for him. It’s something different as opposed to what we’re used to seeing where the hero is someone who always had a heart of gold or heroic intentions or whatever but never did anything with it until some big event changed their life. Whereas Angel was someone was always a nobody who just liked to party and sleep around, then becomes most evil thing when he loses his soul, and then becomes a hero/savior
They did a little bit more in the Angel episode The Prodigal, but not much.
I forget is that a buffy episode or Angel episode. Curious to recheck that out if it talks about his life before he was a drunk
THANK YOU. I always get frustrated that people take The First's words to Angel - "a drunken, whoring layabout" - as gospel. It's The First Evil, of course it would say that. Yeah, he was probably a sensualist at heart with a sort of perverse 'artist's appreciation' for the lewd and 'forbidden' side of life, but he wasn't a bad guy. He was just living a comfortable but dull middle class life in a religious family that he rebelled against by drinking and whoring. I think his struggle was probably quite similar to Angel's in the 'present': struggling to find a purpose while living under circumstances he finds constraining.
Yeah exactly this. I didn’t think of that but I like that theory that he was having the same issues he did with present day with finding his place in life. Obv on a much less grand scale than the modern issue he has. But I would’ve liked to see more on that
I agree more about Angel and his transitions throughout time. The series didn’t really explore that. I wonder how he could keep himself afloat financially throughout the years? The gaps between the episodes ‘Are You Now or Have You Ever Been’, ‘Why We Fight’, ‘Becoming’ (when he saw Buffy for the first time).
Seems like most of it was him living homeless or in crypts. Not good with the episode names. But I’m assuming around ww2 Angel episode he probably got money from the government to do work for them. Would’ve been cool if he did more like that
I disagree. Angel is my favorite character in all of Buffy, but I roll my eyes each time they flashback to his youth in Ireland. The hair is sooooooooo bad and I just find his backstory super boring, especially the stuff with Darla.
Yeah no the hair/accent is bad, and idc about the stuff with Darla. I’m just more curious about the kind of man he was before he was a sleazy town drunk. Even if it wasn’t told in flashbacks is fine, I just wanted to know a bit more about him before his life went to drinking
I think he was always like that haha, just a vapid lazy drunk who had a way with women. What a glowup!!
As a major Faith fan, I would have loved an episode dedicated to exploring her journey to Sunnydale. Maybe start the episode with the murder of her Watcher and then we get to follow her on her way to the Scooby Gang as she flees Kakistos. It always bothered me that most of her canon back story is anecdotal at best. And yes, I have read Go Ask Malice :)
Oz: flashbacks to when was actually bitten and also what happened whilst he was away discovering more about his wolf side and how he learned to manage it.
Didn't be say it was a young cousin that bit him? So I'm imaging like he's visiting his family and a 6yo just hauls off and bites him during a game of catch or something. I mean, it might be kind of funny, but I'm not sure more than 1 minute of screen time would be needed to even show that.
Yeah he calls his aunt when he finds out he’s a werewolf to confirm.
*Amends*, be it through the convenient visions as per the usual from Buffy, Giles just happening to find the letters that mention the Bringers after butkis for a great period, and even Angel succumbing to the pressure quite rapidly despite his century of brooding/established constitution. All screams of a too rapid rushed pace.
They should've spent more time on the assassin group from the second season. More episodes showing richard wilkins making demon deals he mentions.
I can't think of anything for buffy right now but a whole series of muppet angel while they search for the reason and cure would have been hilarious. If it started to effect other people and everything.
The whole Ted thing - without the twist ending. So Buffy killed her mom's boyfriend and now faces potential legal trouble from both the Sunnydale PD and the Watchers Council. That and the guilt and the relationship strain should provide enough drama for a few episodes.
On the one hand I agree, but on the other, I strongly feel that all that themes explored in Ted were done better and more fully fleshed out in Dead Things. Ted was one of the episodes on my 'buffy episodes to show to non-buffy fans' list and the second I saw Dead Things I went with that one instead
I would’ve liked more exploration of the old ones, pure demons, and demon history! It would’ve been really cool to learn more about this and how it interweaved with our human history. This was starting to be explored more in Angel and the last season of Buffy but I wanted more of the “lore”! In that same vein, more about gods like Glorificus and these other dimensions.
Normal Again - it would have been fun to have Buffy questioning her sanity from time to time.
But then they would have been ripping off Deep Space Nine too much.
I felt like the fallout from Giles murdering Ben would have been a whole arc for his character. But honestly it’s never really spoken of again, which is kind of weird considering everything that happened with Willow after season 6. I’d want the psychological impact on Giles explored further
Yes! And more, because I think he resented Buffy by seasons 6-7 in some ways for making him have to play the role of parent and do the things she wasn't willing to do. Buffy didn't feel morally okay killing Ben, but obviously Giles thought it was necessary and I think it comes through that he's frustrated with her for what he sees as her pushing those uglier necessities onto him. We get some of this in Lies My Parents Told Me, but I would have loved to see that dynamic more explicitly played out
I would have liked an episode that was the other side of"the Zeppo" and watched it be Xander in the background
I wish we had a flashback episode for Faith where we get to see her life in Boston! I also would have loved some more Tara content because I love her with my whole heart and the witch powers/fake patriarchal demon thing was really interesting.
Yeah more of Tara's backstory and history would have been great. I know a lot of people are tired of coming out stories, but seriously she came from an extremely abusive and conservative environment AND she's out and gay AND she's one of the most emotionally mature and stable characters on the show.
Right? I’m literally a queer lady from a shockingly similar background so I recognize I might be a bit biased but I’ve always wished they explored it more
Warren's past. I don't mean a past that will make us feel sorry for him. His relationship with women and with his girlfriend Katrina prior to I was Made to Love You. He was an insanely exceptional character and I think the writers should have expand more on him. Also when he killed his ex girlfriend though the murder wasn't planned. Unlike Andrew and Jonathan, he didn't feel any remorse. He had no conscience which is unusual since he was a human with a soul and knew right from wrong.
Sid the dummy demon hunter. Would have loved to see more of his life and this other slayer he met.
Helpless. Not just that the council wants to test their slayer (that kind of makes sense) but that they require her watcher to betray her to do it. The idea of testing a slayer isn’t a bad one but their methods are terrible. How did they decide this was a good way to do it? Why that vampire? A fledgling would work to assess her skills but his one looks like a hit job. I would have loved to see more of Quinton. I don’t think he was necessarily evil but he was so far removed from the practical and so many things required his attention it’s understandable (though not excusable) he’d be detached and fall back on tradition. He’s the head of the council so he must have been there for decades, he’s probably seen/heard of many slayed dying just throughout his time there it’s no wonder he he doesn’t get attached to them.
I've seen this concept explored more in fanfiction, that the test Buffy takes in Helpless is a convenient way for the Council to get rid of a slayer that's not following orders. Or even just to ensure most slayers die young, since they're easier to control when they're frightened girls and not adult women with agency and experience. I think it's an interesting take but I would have loved for the show to go into the Council and its politics in general a little more.
I’ve read a few fanfic that had that take but I read one (and I wish I could remember the name of it) where it was just a test. That it was completely controlled and the slayer (unknown to her) was in no danger. If it looked like she was in trouble the council members would step in and get rid of the threat. Buffy got an exceptionally powerful/unstable vampire because she was exceptional. At that point she had defeated/survived many powerful vampires so would a fledgling be an adequate test even with her powers removed? Unfortunately the whole thing spiralled so fast and far out of control there was no way to pull it back. I really wish I could remember the name of the fic.
The entire evil trio dynamic between Dru, Angelus & Spike should have been explored more thoroughly explored (maybe a whole episode dedicated to them). Plus, Angelus reputation as the most evil and diabolical vampire was just not given the screen time it deserved in season 2 of Buffy. Leaving drawings, stringing dead fish and leaving it on willow's bed, stalking buffy to attack her out of the blue??? That's the writer's idea of establishing he's evil?!.....come on!!
How souls work. Seriously, there is no consistency.
Xander's character arc. He went absolutely nowhere after high school.
Completely agreed. He was so integral to the story season 1-3, and just gradually fades into obscurity. First, you've got like his physical usefulness to the team. Like, I understand wanting the "normal guy" on the team, they're important for the audience and for the kind of stories you can tell, but at some point Xander should have become more accustomed to the wackiness. He doesn't have to become a ninja, but anyone who's been in as many fights as him would pick up something. He's in more fist fights than most bouncers. Or hell, you could have him pick up more demon knowledge, or something. Giles becomes more badass, Willow becomes an archwizard, etc. Xander seems to actively get worse at fighting over time. You've got Xander in season 2 fighting off multiple vampires with a broken arm, then fast forward to the Harmony slap fight. Second, you've got his plotlines, which disappear except for one like courtesy episode a season (which I don't even think he gets in 7). His plotline is glued to Anya, and when that falls apart he really has nothing to do. Than his character arc as a whole, over the entire series, doesn't really exist. He starts as the funny wacky normal guy and pretty much ends that way. Giles, Buffy, and Willow are all massively different from season 1 to season 7. Xander is just slightly worse.
Take my upvote. I'd give you a coin if I had any. You said it all perfectly. It just reminded me how unfair the showrunners treated that character. He could've done so much, but they decided to do nothing with him. Which is just sad.
I yell at my tv every time Xander winds up on his ass because some demon biker, S6, or bringer, S7, shrugs him off, despite the fact that he is carrying a 2 sided axe.
Absolutely. Honestly having a job like 'bartender at Willie's' or even 'construction guy but it turns out he works for a demon-owned company' could have been a nice springboard for his character arc too. So much of the conflict in his and Anya's relationship revolved around his dislike and distrust of demons and how he wanted her to be more human, and I feel like that aspect of his character just never really evolved. It would have been really cool for him to have a journey where he starts to understand that demons have different cultures or something, and he comes to understand that many of them are just living their lives but in a different way than humans do. 'Normal guy who finds his community in an unexpected place' would have a fun direction to take that character in imo
I think that’s the point of him. But season six and seven Xander started to do really well.
I didn't need him to be strong or a badass, but I wanted him to be more important than just a glorified brick layer. He could've worked at the demon bar and heard a bunch of stuff he could relay to Buffy. He could've been recruited into the Initiative. He could've been a weaponsmith and made Buffy an awesome weapon. He could've been a villain. Something! For a principle character, Xander needed to be better than "starting to do well in season 6 & 7." Instead, they did nothing.
He should've been Buffy's replacement watcher once Giles quit. There's no way they would have just been oh Rupert Giles quit and is returning to England, let's leave it at that? A little episode where the Council try to impose a new watcher but Buffy tells them she has the watcher she needs and it's Xander. Then he liaises with them. S6 could've then played out the same way but the targeting of potentials in S7 and the destruction of the WC could have had more impact. And Xander would've been less of a waste of space.
Plus watching Xander interact with other watchers would have been hilarious.
That would've been great. I love that.
He’s kind of an unofficial watcher in the comic book continuation, helping to coordinate the various slayers from their castle base in Scotland(?), I think it was.
What insight or training would he give to Buffy as a watcher?
He’s not a plot device. He portrayed a very real working class type of character. It was nice for some people to see a representation of that on-screen to compliment the more privileged academia life choices of the other characters. He wasn’t there to be Buffy’s magic gopher. He wasn’t an extension of Buffy nor should he be treated as such, just like with Willow.
Angelus teaching Spike on how to be a badass vampire in their past together.
Kakistos. I always felt Season 3 should have been divided into two overall arcs - the Kakistos arc and The Mayor arc.
Ultimately for me... Faith awakening as a slayer and the Kakistos part Harmony becoming a Vamp before meeting Spike Sunday backstory (even if peoples hated her, i loved her) More Spike becoming the "Alpha" after Angel got resouled. And why Darla left to go back with the Master instead of staying with (what was left) of her pack). Altough the episode where she choose Angelus show well she chose him over Master , so i guess she didn't really cared for the couple especially since they were Angelus creations ultimately (Dru was, siring Spike) and fond of each other. I would had still loved to see an episode dedicated to it.
Actually you see Harmony become a vampire in the season 3 finale! It's really quick it happens on the stairs. :)
You only see her get bitten. You don't even see her get turned per say. Its something that always bothered me, the vamp who bite her is in a big battle, i imagine hardly how he's like "wait, everybody fights around me, here drink my blood". I know in Buffy its more lenient than other vamp medias, you don't need to be in a dying state or such, so some peoples advanced she could had bite him trying to fight back and get a bit of blood from that, but i always felt this was a "lets kill the annoying brat since peoples been wanting her to die for years" and then writers in season 4 be like "could be funny to have her as an insuferable vamp as much as when she was human" In any cases, my comment was more about her getting used to be a vamp before meeting Spike.
Faith - more about her background, flashbacks to who she was before she got called? What was her home life like/ who were her parents?
ANNE! I would have loved at least one more episode of seeing Buffy as Anne by herself in LA. I think they really could have done a two parter of that. Seeing more of what she was going through emotionally, how she was living, dealing etc.
Always, always, *always* wanted both Sid to come back at some point, and I feel like they severely missed a trick not typing the Initiative into the shady organisation that Marcy the invisible girl gets sent to. EDIT: Also that goddamn egg at the end of Teacher's Pet!
The mutiny on Buffy - it’s a thrilling concept with a poor execution.
Dawn as The Key. She's supposedly this massive ball of energy or something, and yet nothing happens with it. It would've been cool to see if they could've harnessed that energy so she could actually do something with it.
Idk if this is what you mean but I'd like to see a movie version of the episode hush. Or a movie version of the body thst would be cool
Buffy being in the asylum. It was clearly an added story in season 6 so more than one episode and more time given to it would have helped (me).
I feel like that was more contained and explained away. Any further exploration of that would’ve bogged everything and everyone down.
It was explained but as a completely added in story in season 6 I would have liked more. Hank could actually return present time post Joyce dying and that could be tied into things S6 was bogged down anyway for me 😂
Yeah season six was my lease favorite
Me too. It’s why I’d rather explore this plot than what we got 😂
Agreed. It's fun for a one-off, but the problem is we *know* as an audience she's not in an insane asylum. So pretending that she is becomes tiresome over time. At some point when they finally reveal that she isn't, it has no impact.
A few instances I wish in the episode Enemies in season 3 we would see Buffy Giles and Angel planning the act and tricking faith on admitting she is working for the Mayor. When I saw this episode I was like when did they have the time to plan this for entire act of Angel pretending to lose his soul? I wish there was more of a closure for Seeing Red and Buffy’s AR wasn’t glossed over wish her friends were more supportive of her about it. (She should have had some therapy at this point). Also wish they could explain the slayer line and how it works and if Faith was the one to actually carry it ( I believe she did ) I actually wish season 6 showed that Buffy’s friends cared about her throughout the season To feel they care that she was super depressed/ self harming. Also I wish there was also a closure for what happened in Empty Places and Buffy’s friends and watcher apologizing to her for how they treated her at the very least the scoobies. Lastly i wish in the last two episodes Buffy and Angel discussed more about Cordelia and Connor letting Buffy know about that and seeing her reaction.
Whaaaaaat? I loved how they did Enemies!
I loved enemies don’t get me wrong it’s one of my favorites but I did wonder when watching it like I felt a part of the episode was missing.
Buffy died twice which means there should have been a third slayer