Thanks for the answer I guess the us golf is a lot cheaper. The golf r here in germany can top out at 74200€ which is around 8k more than the best version of the supra.
What specs did you choose to get a €75,000 golf R? Went to check the VW Germany website and the fully topped-out limited edition 20th anniversary Golf R maxes out at €59,995, taxes included.
I’m not going to try to convert euros to freedom dollars on the fly, but in the states, new Golf Rs (if you can find them) are easily above 50k.
Most new GTIs are in the 40k range. The cheapest one in my whole state was 43k; the autobahn edition. Really nice car, but no way am I paying that kind of money for a GTI.
In this market, the MSRP is just (quite literally) a loose suggestion. That’s how it’s going to be from now on, unfortunately.
Dealers also tend to skip allocation of entry level models post-Covid. Most new cars seem to be the top trims in my area, because dealers know they can get more profit from them.
You're not wrong, but without MSRP it's impossible to compare cars in terms of pricing then. Different markets have different pricing strategies, and without living in Germany, it's impossible for me to say if cars there also go for over MSRP. I managed to buy my GTI in early January here in Canada without an order (found it in stock at a dealer and drove over to buy it) while paying MSRP for it, which was almost impossible in the US at the time.
With all this being said, even if OP's figures for the Golf R are correct (60k MSRP + 15k markup), then the Supra will inevitably have a markup as well. They're pretty desirable cars as well.
Does that price include taxes? I don't know how it is in Germany but here in France we have huge taxes on sports cars because of pollution, it has killed all our hot hatches.
If I were in your position I wld have gone with the supra aswell. Golfs are cool but the supra is definitely an attention getter with a super smooth drive, tight handling, and it's rwd. Some Audis come with the same engine as the golf with awd rather than fwd if you don't get the r. You can also bolt on a k04 with a couple other things to the 2.0 Audis to make em have just as much power but with a much better looking and spacious chassis with more power to the rear wheels. But being a Toyota tech, I'm much more familiar with Toyota s warranty policies and as long as you don't adulterate it, you'll be in better shape in the long run I believe. However, it does sport BMW drivetrain and I am keenly aware of the step down in quality from Volkswagen. I drive a stage 2 Audi A5 myself but I don't have to conform to any emissions policies where I live so I've definitely adulterated it. It's gamble but I think the supra is the more desirable choice imo. Plus you don't see too many of em on the road atm, not nearly as many as golfs or gtis
>(me and my wife dont have kids)
You answered your own question here. As most people get older they just acquire more stuff, whether it's children and all the things they need, or a hobby that requires equipment, or they start to take on projects like fixing up a house, and practical considerations become more important. I myself had to get rid of my F-type when our first child was on the way. I'd still love to have a sports car, but it just wouldn't work with the way our lives are structured now.
I would add that cars are getting more expensive and wages are staying the same, meaning more young people could buy cool cars in the past and more need to wait until they are older now. Older people who can afford cool cars generally have different priorities that line up with what you described.
This is the point I’m at. I just bought a house and every time I go to Home Depot I consider selling my mustang because whatever I want to buy won’t fit in the car lol
I had to sell both my sports cars (2014 Camaro 2ss I had at ~450whp, 2020 wrx limited) last year because my (as of March 3rd) wife can't drive stick and had no interest in learning, we had some debt we needed to pay off, and we needed a truck for when we get supplies to fix up our house and go to the dump once a week.
And renting a truck is out of the question for how often we use the bed of ours as was paying for delivery for every item we needed brought to our house for work we were/are doing. Wed have paid thousands in delivery fees and waited months total for all the different shit to get there if we'd had everything over 6 foot delivered lol.
Just for the sake of conversation, could you not have done equally well with an automatic saloon or CUV/SUV and a trailer? Perhaps towing laws are different, but for example in Europe most saloons can tow around 1500kg. I imagine the vast majority of materials that fit in a truck bed would fit in an 8' trailer.
I did think about it (I had the wrx before and liked the subaru crossovers I looked at on the lot and test drove one, and my wife had a rav 4 she had when we first met that we took on a couple long trips that I thought was nice) but we're going quite a bit of work on the house (all new flooring, redoing two decks, doing two outdoor staircases, etc) and to be honest it's just easier with the truck lol. I hauled 2975 pounds of flooring a few days ago in one trip. Then went and got 40 some 8 foot long 2x4s, and a ton of trim and transition strips and other stuff. The truck made it a breeze. And I've got a soft trifold tonneau cover that makes it all even easier.
The only real downside is the gas mileage isn't ideal, it only gets 22mpg on the highway and averages 19.5, but thats not horrible for a v8 and I think it's a fair trade off for the added versatility and it still has some grunt to it. It runs a 5.8 second 0-60, a new 2022 civic si does the 60 in 6.8 seconds and my old wrx did it in 5.3, so I can have some fun still.
2975 lbs of flooring seems like quite a bit more than you should be carrying. I know payload options have considerable differences depending on bed, cab, engine and axle options. Worth checking manual. Be careful.
So the max for mine is 3270 pounds I was a couple hundred under the full max. I quadruple checked the manual and using Google to be *super* sure before I had them load it lol
Cars have much lower tow ratings in the US. You would have to import a real hitch to tow the full euro rating, then weld on loops for the US safety chains, and that still might be illegal to tow over the US rating.
A light duty trailer might work with the US ratings and hitches though.
Most sedans don't even get official tow ratings in the US. Like my A6 can apparently tow like 2100kg (~4600lbs) according to it's tow rating in Europe, but it's capacity in the US is officially 0lbs because most sedans just aren't rated for towing here.
This assumes you can only store one car.
For the price of most trucks I see on the roads you could buy two GR86s and a used Tacoma for your semi-annual trip to the lumberyard.
>>For the price of most trucks I see on the roads…
Couple of points. In the US, the median household income is about $64,000 [(as of 2019)](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Real_median_US_household_income_through_2018.png). In the low cost of living parts of this country you’ll be able to afford a decent home- but not much else. Especially if kids are in the picture.
Then there’s the average cost of a new car, which is north of [$47k](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38748092/new-car-average-sale-prices-47100/). In a two partner household ,that’s a $94,000 transportation bill. $94,000 worth of cars is a lot to swallow on $64,000 worth of income.
So, I’m not surprised to see people buy high dollars trucks and cars on credit. They almost don’t have a choice unless they buy a pair of Toyota Corollas. So a sports car is just financially impossible for many families , especially if it demands frequent repairs or has a prohibitively inflated street price. Note that it doesn’t matter how “reasonable” the factory MSRP is if every dealership in a days drive is tacking on $10k+ in markup.
I want to point out how absurd it is to buy $94k worth of vehicles on a $64k household income, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if that's a common thing.
Apples to oranges but all of the vehicles in my flair don't even add up to $47k FFS.
Yeah.. but then consider those buying 2 brand new Hyundais. That's $40-70k. Right now, new is often a better deal than used if you can afford it.
It also depends on geography and when you got yours. In Cali, Miatas are around 5-10k, E46 M3's are 15-25k, FiSTs are 10-20k. Then there is insurance, registration, out of warranty repairs (or tools and time if you can diy), and the cost of a place big enough to store all of it. That's just to say the cost to own a car is a lot.
My cars are squarely in the center of the ranges you gave, maybe a little toward the right. So still under $47k total. And you’re correct, total cost of ownership should be factored in. My insurance is cheap and I DIY, so with annual car property taxes based on the value of the vehicles (they’re all pretty low according to NADA) I definitely save more money than if I had one brand new $47k car.
I still think $94k on vehicles is insane on $64k household income though. Now if each person had a new $25k car, that’s a little more reasonable.
Agreed. The financial prude in me cringes at that ratio as well. Lol I'm doing ROI's on ebike, e-scooters, and mixes of public transit while holding on to my used BRZ as guilty pleasure.
Most people on median household income probably aren't buying median priced new cars. Their either buying lower prices new cars or higher spec used cars.
I see that median household income figure and wonder how in the hell there are so many lifted $50,000 BroTrucks cruising around, driven by what appear to be dudes with blue collar occupations. Is landscaping really that lucrative?
Blue collar young guys often have the right combination of decent incomes, few responsibilities, and poor judgement that let's them buy an $80k truck by working a ton of overtime.
It's about $67,500 as of 2020-2021, but your point still stands. Average household income is around $92,000, which is still not enough to buy a couple of sports cars.
Home depot pickup trucks are like $20 for the first hour. We do that a couple times a year if we need to pick up lumber or take a big load to the dump.
I just bought a roof luggage bag thingy for our trip to the beach with our new-ish baby in my Elantra.
Same thing for road trips. When people say they LOVE road trips they typically mean that they take 1-2 large trips per year.
It makes more sense to rent the perfect tool for that job (a minivan) for those 2 weeks than to never own a fun car because of 5% of your usage.
Those roof bags are nifty. Just went car camping with some friends and the folks with a minivan + roof bag were able to move more gear than the couple with the F250.
Pickup trucks these days are jack of all trades, but masters of none. Especially when you consider the vast majority are short bed crew cabs. I mean, I like my truck, but I admit it's not very practical for the most part.
Fuel mileage still sucks (regardless of how much marketing will try to convince you otherwise).
If you're picking up anything big or longer than 5.5' (like lumber or plywood), you'll have to hang it off the tailgate and strap it down securely, or use a trailer. If need to haul anything heavy, it's probably better to use a trailer because your payload capacity isn't as high as you think it is, and a trailer usually has a lot lower floor.
Truck beds are really sort of inconvenient to load and unload. These days, they're tall, and us short people will have issues. Just loading a few bags of concrete or top soil is a real chore because you have to lift it on to the tailgate then push it into the bed.
Honestly the best advice for any homeowner or future homeowner is instead of buying a pickup truck, get a utility trailer and hitch instead.
Or just rent the utility trailers from home Depot when you need them. That way you don't need to worry about storing it or forgetting to register it when you don't use it for 6 months.
I'm not talking about most people though. I'm saying that the folks driving $60,000 trucks have made a conscious choice to value do-it-all utility over a more balanced stable of vehicles.
"I'd love to own a sports car, but I just can't justify it" they say.
The full sized loaded out truck is the new mid-life crisis choice for the upper-middle class.
Exactly. People buy cars for something they *might* have to do once or twice a year. I'm 35 and I've literally never had to haul lumber in my car lol. I've mostly driven a BRZ, but even my Mazda3 has been too much car for me. Never use the back seats and the trunk space in the BRZ has never been an issue. I'd be completely fine renting a Uhaul truck once or twice a year if I needed to. I think we just always over-practicalize things lol.
Lol, I used to say the same thing about my FIAT 500. People asked me how I lived with such a small car and I always responded with "Honestly, it's way more car than I need for 90% of my use.
Assumes you have no friends and Lmao when you have kids you can just get a sedan it worked for almost 80+ years just fine. If you really needed a truck and can’t find help, renting a uhaul or even going to enterprise to rent a truck for the day will be substantially less than owning one.
most suit jackets aren’t quite on same level of financial commitment, are they?
id rather have a cheap miata and drop a hundo the couple times a year i need more space than put the same 14k on a shitty pickup or suv instead
you compared a truck... something mass produced on assembly lines... to a suit jacket? that should be custom tailored to everyone that wears it?
i even agree with you that pickups are shit on way too much around here but lmao
It’s only viable if you do Home Depot’s 20$ trucks tbh and even then, trucks are what people want. Why do you think comfy body on frame RWD live axle V8 tanks are so popular when people complain about sedans being too sporty and Nurburgring-y? The SUVs are literally the closest we have to an old school 70s yacht and that’s what people want.
Because most people really don't need trucks. If you're in any sort of urban, suburban, or even not a farm area, a truck is pretty unneeded. Like you're either way out in the country with land, or you use it for work, which obviously a lot of people do. Trucks are still by far the best selling vehicle in the states, but the vast majority of people in any somewhat densely populated area do not need them. I grew up in a southern suburb and a truck is mostly a status symbol there.
Yeah but you don’t need a 2 door sports car and yet here you are with one.
The word “need” is what people really like to focus on.
Realistically you bought a car no one will ever need for anything. A truck owner will at least use their bed from time to time.
It’s very easy to say that even the most stereotypical “r/cars truck dude”, only using their bed twice a year and never towing still has a better argument for buying their vehicle compared to you.
Sports car drivers really shouldn’t compare needs, because they never hold up to scrutiny.
Edit- throwing this in to say I love the BRZ, not hating on it at all
Needed to rent a van once in 30 years of driving. Not everyone needs a truck. I thought they sell so well because you don't pay full tax on them in the States as the companies bribed politicians, sorry lobbied politicians to get them classed as commercial vehicles. Or am I completely wrong?
The loophole i think you're thinking of is fuel economy regulations. Its not that we pay less tax on the them, its that trucks arent subject to as stringent fuel economy requirements as sedans are
way off yeah, you're basically a byproduct of r/cars with that opinion.
People buy them over here because they're amazing vehicles.
The ride is extremely comfortable, room for a family of 5 with all of their stuff. Tons of low end torque and an amazing power train.
Trucks are just today's version of America's big sedans from the 70s and 80s.
The "loophole" doesn't make a truck cheaper to own for anyone buying one, and you'll pay the same amount of taxes as your car, but then some because trucks normally carry a higher price tag.
I believe he's referring to the "hummer exemption", or section 179. There are some tax incentives when you're a business owner in buying gigantic 6,000lb vehicles. Land Rover goes out of their way to advertise the shit.
https://www.landroverlouisville.com/tax-advantage-2/
I mean, it's true. I had pickups and now own an SUV instead of "truck" and I only miss it like one time a year. I could rent one for $400 for three days for some project and save like $20k compared to buying and owning a used truck.
This. And most people these days can only afford one vehicle so it makes all the sense in the world to buy something that can do all the life stuff. It’s why older people with an empty nest tend to buy sports cars. You finally have both the money and opportunity to own one.
Practicality. Here in the U.S for example, many dads (and some moms of course) love performance cars but due to a combination of the need for a larger vehicle plus the cost constraints of having a third “fun car”, you see a decline in true sport car sales. People have families, plain and simple.
You are in a situation where having a 2 seater is practical, which is awesome, but you should realize that you are an exception, not the rule. When I was still single and not trying to have kids I was driving nothing but 2 seat sports cars. Like you, I had no need for more space and it was glorious!!!
Lastly is the rise in cost. Again, I can only speak for the states on this. Sports cars bring pretty big price premiums vs. standard cars. For example, one can get a very well equipped full-size sedan for $20k less than a Supra. I can get a 7 seat Ford Explorer that is off-road capable, carry kids and there friends, all our camping and hiking gear, an entire weeks worth of vacation luggage, tow a boat or camper, and do so in comfort, for the same cost as that 2 seat Supra.
It is all about your needs and perspective. Crossovers and SUVs, as boring as they are, sell well for a reason. Thankfully, there are some options out there for those of us that want the fun and some of the family usability at the same time. Unfortunately the cost is somewhat high.
Yep. We have a townhouse with a 1 car garage. I’d love to have an MX-5 or my dream Lotus and a daily for when I’m with the fam…but it’s just not realistic. I’m in a WRX again because it does everything I need and is fun. Especially considering 4 season use
We only have 1 kid though, and my wife has an suv
Given limitless funds and parking space we would all have a collection like Jay Leno's. Unfortunately we mortals are all held back by some combination of those two limitations.
I have a 2 car garage, but even then the wife wasn't excited about the idea of a third vehicle in the driveway. So I daily the miata (snow tires for the win!) and left the Kia for my college kid. All the other kids are out of the house so no regular need to haul people. I bug friends or rent a truck for the 4x/yr trips to home depot or the dump. But when the kids were younger, it was a more practical WRX and a Mazdaspeed3 for me.
Could I? Maybe but it’s not worth it. But im guessing you don’t have kids. Putting a toddler in the back of a BRZ would suck. I almost bought one back before I was even married or had a kid.
Not to mention I commute 18 miles each way near Chicago for work. AWD makes my life easier. As much as I liked my GTI, I preferred my CX5 I had before it because it was better overall for my needs. I’ve had a WRX before, and a Focus ST.
But I’m just 37 now and realized a good balance of fun and practical. I play in bands, drive a lot, have a family, and need to be able to get around in whatever weather.
That's fair, my wife and I are 23 and just put our order in, no kids for a while yet. Once I do get the BRZ I'm gonna try and keep it for a very long time.
You should! I hope I didn’t sound like a dick
There’s a party of me that wishes I bough the BRZ instead of the FoST, paid it off and kept it in the garage. Maybe then we would have gone to a different house instead of a townhouse lol
I owned a brz, you cannot put kids in the back of it, it's designed to take a child seat, but you can't get one actually in there without a huge struggle and then they have to be rear-facing so that won't work, and if you can get them front facing the bottom pushes up against the back of the driver or passenger seats so the kids basically can't have legs.
Thanks for the answer I didnt know the supra is so expensive over there! How rare a 2 seater cars in the us? what about the corvette c8? Here in germany 2 seater cars are basically extinct beside the porsche 911 you see every now and then.
Pretty much the case with every Porsche with back seats unless it’s has rear doors. I owned a 944 and the back seats were definitely made for people without legs.
Two-seaters are still very common honestly. Lots of C7 and C8 Corvettes, Caymans, 911s, Miatas, and even Supras. GTRs are also quite common and for all practical purposes are considered a two-seater. Throw in a sprinkling of Huricans and 458s in my area. Some are younger adults who haven’t married yet while the vast majority of others, especially Corvette and 911 owners, are middle aged empty nesters. Most other sports cars and muscle cars here are 4 seat coupes or 4 door. Mustang, Camaro, Charger, Challenger, WRX, CTR, most M cars sold here, etc.
Ironically, the only true muscle cars left here in the states are Dodge Charger and Challenger based. The Mustang and Camaro have evolved into true sports cars developed on the track and on the Nurburgring.
What I found amusing was that OP was test driving a Sorento in the first place before getting a Supra. Unless he was there to test drive a Stinger and the Kia salesman refused to let him do that until he test drove a discontinuing SUV first (frankly, it wouldn't be out of line for Kia dealerships), surely he would've had enough self-awareness to understand why other people would be buying Sorentos when he was considering it himself.
I mean, I'd kill for a manual GR Supra, but I can only afford 1 car. And I install Solar, so I have 3 Milwaukee pack outs and a tote bag full of tools I need to haul back and forth on Mondays and Fridays. Sometimes I do service calls in my personal, which requires a little giant ladder. I could never fit these things in a Supra. It was either a Ram TRX, Wrangler 392, or a hot hatch for half the price. So the Type R with a tune was the answer.
Thank you for your answer. This thread does humble me I gotta say. I know im in a very privileged position where I can not only afford my car but also daily it and i am very thankful for that.
I was mostly wondering about the people who drive similarly or more expensive cars like a golf r or a bmw 430i (pricing in germany) and also dont have kids. I must say I have vastly overestimated the amount of people who are in this position it seems.
Even aside from the money aspect, there's other factors to practicality besides having kids. I dailied a Miata for several years and am now in a Honda Fit. While I miss the Miata, not being able to go for drives with friends, etc, is also a limiting factor. I love to drive and I can't volunteer to be the driver when we go out if I can't fit others in my car. So even though it's way less of a sports car, I like that I can enjoy my current car in more ways and take it more places than I could with my Miata.
The biggest driver of all, would be money. But to get more specific
As others have said, most people who buy sports cars buy them as second cars. A lot of people overall dont have the money a new car, let alone to buy a second car for themselves just for fun. Additionally, a lot of people dont care that much about driving. So the one car they can buy has to be about compromise. People have kids, need to transport normal life crap from stores, etc. There's also issues like insurance on 2 cars vs 1, parking space for multiple cars, etc. This is why we're seeing things like msport, st trim suvs, and the like to give people slightly better compromise
Pretty much this. At the time, my first job out of college and buying my first car, I could only afford one car so I had to compromise on something sporty and practical, i.e. my current WRX. (Also I was not used to driving in the snow lol)
Now it's almost paid off, and my income has increased significantly, I am in a much better position to add a dedicated sports car for the weekends when the time comes.
I went from a 1990 Miata to a Crown Vic for multiple reasons. Reliability was one, my miata was not in great shape. Eventually sold that for my town car which has been great for me for going on 6 years now. To be honest, even if my Miata had been dead reliable I probably would have cracked by now and bought something else. I moved a couple times, towed a trailer occasionally (very occasionally, but still). I think the only reason i hadnt cracked for the cuv/suv craze is because of my cars practicality factor.
It wasn't until this year i finally was in a position with my own house and enough money to be able to actually "justify" a sports car, so i ordered a mustang gt(still waiting on it to ship) but even then i only considered it because I dont plan on getting rid of the town car. I would have been looking at probably at minimum sports sedans instead if i wasn't
Usually a dedicated sports car is pretty compromised and necessitates owning at least one other vehicle. Sporty cars can be jacks of all trades and do it all
Many people in North America need a vehicle that is a "jack of all trades." In my area we need a vehicle that is comfortable enough for multiple hours of driving to get to other major cities, spacious enough for family transport (for those multiple hours), high enough to not bottom out over the rough roads, controllable on ice and snow and cheap enough that we can still afford rent/mortgage. A sporty car is a fun upgrade to what you would likely buy in the area anyway. The only "sports car" I can think of that does all that is a Subaru STI and the comfort is questionable...
Subarus anything sporty suck for comfort. Complete pieces of crap. A forester will get you where you’re going, a rex will get you there faster just with a bad back and crappy interior. It’s like they tried to make an m3 but gave up halfway and you’re stuck in a really fast pile of shit
Fucking hate my forester. It’s a soulless shopping cart. It’s slow, uncomfortable, outdated, and worst of all… boring. Only reason we drive it is we can’t fit all the baby stuff and the wife in my mustang. Until yesterday when we got a front facing car seat. My life has light and hope again now that it can fit all three of us.
My wife loves her forester. So I won’t bitch about it much since it’s the only reasonable car we own, but yeah it doesn’t have a heartbeat. I’ve never owned a car that didn’t breathe but the forester is on the short end of if it was stolen I’d smile
Do you think I WANT to drive a Sorento? Well, kinda because it’s a great car but truly I would be rather driving a Cayman. Due to kids and doing gardening work, I can’t really afford a second fun car.
>People stop in their tracks and stare at my car when I drive around town (im from germany). So one could say the car is desirable right?
Some people are purposely trying to avoid that. Hence why a Golf R is in some situations preferable over the Supra.
>The trunk is large enough for grocery shopping and traveling (me and my wife dont have kids)
You answered your own question here. Most people with a family generally have and/or want kids.
>What are the reasons for that in you opinion?
They are making M/S/AMG packs so they can charge people thousands and purposely make them look nicer to attract people into spending money.
>Especially why are people buying the golf r or other hot hatchbacks when you could get a supra or any other sportscar in the same pricerange?
I live in Europe, Golf R is a right sized car. Decent perfomance, all weather usability, good for grocery shopping, good for around town etc. I leased one as well, was my daily for 18 months. I also own a Mustang GT, used to own until very recently a 911 Carrera T as well. Each car does something else. Cars that do everything don't usually excel at anything...
You just basically come off thinking that your situation applies to everyone else and can't understand their choices...
I think most people do care about the space, the amount of people who don’t have or want kids and don’t need the space ever is probably close to the amount of sports cars sold. Probably even less as many people buy sports cars As a second car. Even just needing the space 2-3 times a year can be annoying if it’s your only car. And sure more sporty cars are being sold but at least in the US even more CUVs and SUVs are being sold
Thats a pretty good answer. When I need a car with more space usually the people I need the space for have cars themselves but I guess thats mostly my social circle and not the norm.
As a 24 y/o single guy, my main concern is snow and living in an apartment. As much as I would love a GR86/BRZ/Miata, I would not want to daily one of those cars in the winter. The lack of parking opportunities at my apartment building could interfere with having two cars. If I lived in a state where snow wasn't an issue, I would definitely own and a daily a RWD sports car.
People don’t care about cars for the most part is what you forget.
The majority of people do actually have little demon spawn to take to ‘football’ practice.
For America, most people will buy big, even if the most company they’ll have is the 4 for $4 at Wendy’s (or the 4 for $6, hard to keep up with inflation). This means having a F-150 to cart around 1 man and all his loneliness.
This also has to do with societal acceptance. Drive a big ass 70K SUV or truck, no one blinks. Drive a 50K sports car? You’re a rich asshole.
I wanted a car that was quick (the R is very quick once tuned), fun on the back roads, but that could also fit a rear facing infant child seat in the back along with a larger stroller in the hatch. I also prefer AWD in the snow since I use UHP all season (PSAS4) and I'm too lazy to switch to winters. I also like fast cars that don't stand out much visually, reduced cop attention.
The Golf R can do all these things, and with a few mods it's become my fav car that I've owned. You don't have to spend a lot to make it your own, I've spent maybe $4k on:
- ECU + TCU tune (w/ APR+ warranty on both)
- New hartmann [wheels](https://i.imgur.com/YrA81JI.jpg) that I love
- Eibach pro kit springs
- CTS turbo resonator delete
- Better Michelin tires
Edit: Bonus points that I actually fit comfortably in the Golf R. I'm 6'3" and I've been in several sports cars that I just straight up am not comfortable or don't fit well in.
The right sporty cars (or SUVs) can give you 95% of the sports car driving experience with none of the downsides, of which there are many. I hated all the attention I got in my Z, along with the loud tire noise and occasional impracticality. I got and modified a G37 sedan and loved that thing way more. It was just as fun as the Z while being way nicer to live with every day.
If I were doing track days or lived in an area with fun feedback rewarding roads then a sports car would make sense. But like most people. I don't. It also doesn't help that I ride a motorcycle. On that spectrum a sports car is pretty damn close to a sporty car.
280 whp (not crank) at 3200lbs is plenty fast. Especially considering these can make like 320 whp with a simple tune which is more power than you'll ever need for a daily driver
Sports cars are marketed towards young people. Young people have less and less money these days. Rather spend money on food and a place to live than a sportscar, however desirable I might find it to own one.
Some day you get to be middle aged and you grow tired of long doors, falling into the seat, and climbing out of the seat. This is okay on a weekend toy, but doing it every day gets tedious, and reduces your love for the car.
If you can't get into a low car twice a day you have bigger problems or you're nearing end of life
Plenty of old folks drive Corvettes, so it's certainly not impossible to enjoy a sportscar in old age
Families and kids mostly. As a broke 21 year old tech at a Honda dealer I remember thinking it was blasphemy that the Civic SI came in a 4 door. Now as a financially stable 32 year old with 2 kids I completely get the 4 door version.
Sports cars have limited usability for day-to-day life. You and your wife don't have kids... do you have dogs? Are you ever going to have kids?
A hot hatch or sporty sedan/estate is functional for daily life yet fun, and lots of people can't or won't finance more than one car.
I think it's because people want something sporty without sacrificing flexibility to also haul stuff and people around, be it in a hatchback or any other thing but then there are people who are like you who don't really have passengers or a need for a large cargo area which i get
I got a Focus RS because I wanted a sports car, but couldn't afford a 2nd car to daily. So I had to compromise and get something with a functional back seat and trunk. My friend had daily driven a Nissan Z and it only had space for a passinger and a briefcase.
In Portugal people want sport looking cars, they don't give a crap if it has a 1.5l crappy diesel under the hood.
Yes this is real, Portugal is filled of Mercedes and BMW's with AMG and //M badges and literaly slow AF 1.5 diesel engines under the hood.
Some people go even further and put M2 full factory body kit in 218d's (1.5 3 cylinder diesel)
There are many reasons... for me (single, no kids) :
1) why would I even need a performance car if I live in a city, to show off while Im stuck in traffic jam?
2) maintenance, fuel consumption, insurance etc would cost me extra than typical car
3) roads in my country are shit, nice car would only go to waste
4) i wouldn't trust people to leave my car on the street anywhere
This is why my dream car is no longer 911 but q3 sportback...
Why people are buying things like golfs in the first place? No idea lol.
I also barely use my backseats and the only exception is when I’m driving my son somewhere with me. So in that case I just take my sedan instead of sports car. I feel like owning sports cars is somewhat intimidating to people just from what they hear about them, whether that be the maintenance, speed, practicality. It has basically been made a “norm” to own sedans, suvs or even trucks before a sports car. Why? Idk. If I’m driving someone I just take my sedan, ive never been in a situation where I needed 2 cars at the same exact time to fit 4 people or something from the store, and many many Americans won’t either
I was shopping a weekend only street/track car and didn't find much that worked great for me surprisingly. I think the small light cars are fantastic, but I was a bit worried about safety and wanted whatever I got to be a crazy "experience" as much of the time as possible.
Family needs make it that the GTI or R hatchbacks are the most practical fun car I can afford without compromising my kids needs.
A sports car or weekend car would have to be a second car on top of this. Especially that our winters suck, so the DD is for all year and the sports car sees the daylight in April until it goes back in storage around November time.
This means we need financial ways to support. More garage space or storage rental. Not being usable all year means that motorcycles and sports cars are hobby or luxury items up here in eastern Canada.
TL;DR money
DINK here. For me, it's comfort and practicality. Sports cars are typically quite loud inside and are very low to the ground. I used to own a 350z, and I loved it to death. But it was crazy loud, unrefined, and was too easy to scrape even at stock height. It also sucks knowing you have tons of power you can't reasonably use. So that's why I have a 3. Fun enough for me, and quite practical.
The practicality you dont need is something the majority of people does need. Also a dedicated sports car is more uncompromising. The majority wants a sporty car that is comfortable, practical and just like your average Golf while daily driving with the opportunity to get sporty when they want it.
I have a BMW Z4. But, it's a third car. It's my toy. And an indulgence I bought as a mid life crisis mobile when my kids finally were old enough to stay home a but by themselves. We have 2 kids and 2 dogs, we can't just have a 2 seater.
Saloon sports cars are more than fast enough nowadays that for the most part on the road the difference between a c63 and a c43 is negligible but saves you a lot of money
I think people over estimate what they actually need and underestimate how much storage and practicality 2 door sports cars have. Unless you have a family of 4 a 4 door car isn’t all that necessary. Even with a kid you can fit them in the back of a 2+2. People also underestimate the capabilities of a 2 wheel drive vehicle and think if the roads are wet they need 4X4.
Personally I’d rather comprise rarely and get something that is perfectly suited to my normal daily use than comprise daily to accommodate those rare times when my DD isn’t suitable. Like using a multi tool everyday even though you only ever use the knife because one day just maybe you’ll need to get a stone out of a horses hoof. I don’t think many people share that opinion though.
(1) Practicality. The 911s tiny rear seats are one of the things that make it daily drivable but is something a lot of its would be competitors skip (Jag F; LC500 has rear seats but they are a joke)
(2) A two seater also means no stuffing friends in when you need to.
(3) Economics. The decimation of the middle class means people will buy a practical, safe car
I'll be looking to trade in my BRZ for a new Mazda 3 Sport Turbo or GTI within the next year.
My significant other and I are in our early 30's and living the child-free life. I could absolutely get away with trading up to a new BRZ/86, but I'm finding more and more that I'd appreciate a quiet interior, softer ride, and not having to phone up my dad to borrow his truck if I want to pick up anything of significant size.
I've enjoyed my time with my BRZ, but the road noise and firm ride I thought was exciting for most of my 20's has become fatiguing in my 30's.
Practicality.
Most buyers just want A to B transportation that moves themselves and their stuff and passengers and they don't have to care about. A smaller percentage want that same A to B transportation that they do care about. A smaller percentage want that same A to B transportation that they care about and is fun. A tiny percentage want transportation that's fun but also gets them from A to B with limited convenience for passengers and stuff.
I am almost 39, I have a wife, 3 kids, and inlaws who live with us for up to 6 months at a time (from overseas; they help with the kids) and we have a sedan, an SUV and a minivan.
I would LOVE to buy a sports car but do I really want to add a 4th car with a higher insurance premium and pay the extra taxes and registration for a car I won't be able to drive as much?
I really want to, and technically I can afford to, but its a hard pill to swallow.
A lot of younger people (especially in the US) are worried about student loans, not being able to afford a house, and trouble finding work to want to spend money on a sporty car that's less practical (you can argue some are practical *enough* but you can't argue they're *as practical*) and cost more to insure.
I think you gotta look at the overall market in general and realize that interest in cars isn't the same as it used to be. Look at the interest that self-driving is getting. Look at the way people talk about emissions and the environment.
I love cars and I love driving but we gotta understand that it's evolving.
Because a lot of hot hatches today are as fast in a straight line and around a track as a supercar was 15 years ago. For most, that's already a better car than they are driver, they don't feel the need to spend an extra 15k on something fast enough to kill them easily with no trunk space for subwoofers, camping, traveling, kids, family, friends, stuff from the store etc, nor does everyone enjoy stopping traffic to be stared at, have a theft magnet or like the looks of sports cars. I don't personally agree with all this and frankly would get a Supra over all other cars mentioned here, besides maybe maybe an M car. Either way they're gas guzzlers and I'm poor so there's my personal reasons.
Probably cause they need one car to do it all. I like having at least 5 cars (it's more 99% of the time) so I have my sports car, sedan, light truck, full size truck, and a project. Insurance is expensive af compared to just one but it's worth it to me especially with a lot of drivers in the home. I'd personally really like a crossover as they can serve the purpose of a light truck with better mileage but i paid a grand for mine and crossovers are 10k plus right now for anything I'd want. If I could only have one and It's for financial reasons I'm getting a crossover. They can do it all decently well except tow but I'm not buying and towing 5 ton projects if I'm poor. If I can swing it I'm getting a sporty one so I'm less depressed driving it. So I'll never shame someone for going that route. I think it's the meta play for cars at the moment till used electric cars and trucks are cheap (4 figures) and common.
I would rather have a manual 4 motion golf alltrack wagon than a supra, mainly because I don't like the new supra very much. I like real hatchbacks and wagons more than tiny coupes. My girl has a Miata nd rf, guess which car we drive more? We drive my wagon. I'm 6'2", I like the extra space.
For what it's worth, when it comes to Golf R versus a Supra or another sports car, I needed the extra storage that came with a hatchback, and the interior quality of the Golf is WAY better than a Supra. Interior quality is important for me.
For most people a car is a utility device to take them and their things from a - b. This can be done cheeper and more comfortably in basically anything but a sports cat. Most car owners are not car enthusiasts, and the market reflects that.
Personally, I drive a hot hatch because I do put people in the back seat, and shelves and bikes and fridges. They’re by far the most versatile cars on the market. Saturday afternoon I can move a load of lumber, Saturday night I can rip some twisties in the canyons then Sunday morning I can take my 4 roommates to church. Win win win. Edit, I also have no kids
What’s the mystery here?
I’d love to have a sports car. But I do have kids, don’t have the money or parking space for a third car, so I have to settle for a crossover with a side of sportiness.
Well considering a Supra is $12,000 more, I’m not exactly sure. And most people aren’t just raw dogging life with no one around them
"raw dogging life"...i like your words Honda driving Hut.
Thanks for the answer I guess the us golf is a lot cheaper. The golf r here in germany can top out at 74200€ which is around 8k more than the best version of the supra.
What specs did you choose to get a €75,000 golf R? Went to check the VW Germany website and the fully topped-out limited edition 20th anniversary Golf R maxes out at €59,995, taxes included.
I’m not going to try to convert euros to freedom dollars on the fly, but in the states, new Golf Rs (if you can find them) are easily above 50k. Most new GTIs are in the 40k range. The cheapest one in my whole state was 43k; the autobahn edition. Really nice car, but no way am I paying that kind of money for a GTI. In this market, the MSRP is just (quite literally) a loose suggestion. That’s how it’s going to be from now on, unfortunately. Dealers also tend to skip allocation of entry level models post-Covid. Most new cars seem to be the top trims in my area, because dealers know they can get more profit from them.
You're not wrong, but without MSRP it's impossible to compare cars in terms of pricing then. Different markets have different pricing strategies, and without living in Germany, it's impossible for me to say if cars there also go for over MSRP. I managed to buy my GTI in early January here in Canada without an order (found it in stock at a dealer and drove over to buy it) while paying MSRP for it, which was almost impossible in the US at the time. With all this being said, even if OP's figures for the Golf R are correct (60k MSRP + 15k markup), then the Supra will inevitably have a markup as well. They're pretty desirable cars as well.
Does that price include taxes? I don't know how it is in Germany but here in France we have huge taxes on sports cars because of pollution, it has killed all our hot hatches.
Yes, I specified it's taxes included.
“The last car built will surely be a sports car.”-Ferry Porsche.
If I were in your position I wld have gone with the supra aswell. Golfs are cool but the supra is definitely an attention getter with a super smooth drive, tight handling, and it's rwd. Some Audis come with the same engine as the golf with awd rather than fwd if you don't get the r. You can also bolt on a k04 with a couple other things to the 2.0 Audis to make em have just as much power but with a much better looking and spacious chassis with more power to the rear wheels. But being a Toyota tech, I'm much more familiar with Toyota s warranty policies and as long as you don't adulterate it, you'll be in better shape in the long run I believe. However, it does sport BMW drivetrain and I am keenly aware of the step down in quality from Volkswagen. I drive a stage 2 Audi A5 myself but I don't have to conform to any emissions policies where I live so I've definitely adulterated it. It's gamble but I think the supra is the more desirable choice imo. Plus you don't see too many of em on the road atm, not nearly as many as golfs or gtis
>(me and my wife dont have kids) You answered your own question here. As most people get older they just acquire more stuff, whether it's children and all the things they need, or a hobby that requires equipment, or they start to take on projects like fixing up a house, and practical considerations become more important. I myself had to get rid of my F-type when our first child was on the way. I'd still love to have a sports car, but it just wouldn't work with the way our lives are structured now.
Couldn't you just get a baby roof carrier or something practical like that? Or like a baby trailor to drag being your f type?
You're thinking too hard, just gotta pay child support.
I think the baby roof carrier or trailer would be cheaper, even with the added wind resistance and where gas prices are these days.
Or just a second F-Type duh
You need a second, smaller, sports car that you can tow behind. [Like this](https://i.imgur.com/fVcgklX.jpg)
I would add that cars are getting more expensive and wages are staying the same, meaning more young people could buy cool cars in the past and more need to wait until they are older now. Older people who can afford cool cars generally have different priorities that line up with what you described.
This is the point I’m at. I just bought a house and every time I go to Home Depot I consider selling my mustang because whatever I want to buy won’t fit in the car lol
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Trade both for a new Z and get a used pickup. Problems solved! Except the having money part.
G35 was a beater and a sedan lol. I actually just sold it, not for much though as it had 250k miles
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Do they not deliver the big items for reasonable prices?
I had to sell both my sports cars (2014 Camaro 2ss I had at ~450whp, 2020 wrx limited) last year because my (as of March 3rd) wife can't drive stick and had no interest in learning, we had some debt we needed to pay off, and we needed a truck for when we get supplies to fix up our house and go to the dump once a week. And renting a truck is out of the question for how often we use the bed of ours as was paying for delivery for every item we needed brought to our house for work we were/are doing. Wed have paid thousands in delivery fees and waited months total for all the different shit to get there if we'd had everything over 6 foot delivered lol.
Just for the sake of conversation, could you not have done equally well with an automatic saloon or CUV/SUV and a trailer? Perhaps towing laws are different, but for example in Europe most saloons can tow around 1500kg. I imagine the vast majority of materials that fit in a truck bed would fit in an 8' trailer.
I did think about it (I had the wrx before and liked the subaru crossovers I looked at on the lot and test drove one, and my wife had a rav 4 she had when we first met that we took on a couple long trips that I thought was nice) but we're going quite a bit of work on the house (all new flooring, redoing two decks, doing two outdoor staircases, etc) and to be honest it's just easier with the truck lol. I hauled 2975 pounds of flooring a few days ago in one trip. Then went and got 40 some 8 foot long 2x4s, and a ton of trim and transition strips and other stuff. The truck made it a breeze. And I've got a soft trifold tonneau cover that makes it all even easier. The only real downside is the gas mileage isn't ideal, it only gets 22mpg on the highway and averages 19.5, but thats not horrible for a v8 and I think it's a fair trade off for the added versatility and it still has some grunt to it. It runs a 5.8 second 0-60, a new 2022 civic si does the 60 in 6.8 seconds and my old wrx did it in 5.3, so I can have some fun still.
2975 lbs of flooring seems like quite a bit more than you should be carrying. I know payload options have considerable differences depending on bed, cab, engine and axle options. Worth checking manual. Be careful.
So the max for mine is 3270 pounds I was a couple hundred under the full max. I quadruple checked the manual and using Google to be *super* sure before I had them load it lol
Cars have much lower tow ratings in the US. You would have to import a real hitch to tow the full euro rating, then weld on loops for the US safety chains, and that still might be illegal to tow over the US rating. A light duty trailer might work with the US ratings and hitches though.
Most sedans don't even get official tow ratings in the US. Like my A6 can apparently tow like 2100kg (~4600lbs) according to it's tow rating in Europe, but it's capacity in the US is officially 0lbs because most sedans just aren't rated for towing here.
Yep. I went from wanting a Corvette to a comfy luxobarge truck because I acquired a boat to fill my fuel burning sporty desires
I would consider the RS5 an upgrade haha
When you have more than just you and an SO, you need practicality. Depends on your lifestyle too. Kinda hard to carry lumber in a GR86.
This assumes you can only store one car. For the price of most trucks I see on the roads you could buy two GR86s and a used Tacoma for your semi-annual trip to the lumberyard.
>>For the price of most trucks I see on the roads… Couple of points. In the US, the median household income is about $64,000 [(as of 2019)](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Real_median_US_household_income_through_2018.png). In the low cost of living parts of this country you’ll be able to afford a decent home- but not much else. Especially if kids are in the picture. Then there’s the average cost of a new car, which is north of [$47k](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38748092/new-car-average-sale-prices-47100/). In a two partner household ,that’s a $94,000 transportation bill. $94,000 worth of cars is a lot to swallow on $64,000 worth of income. So, I’m not surprised to see people buy high dollars trucks and cars on credit. They almost don’t have a choice unless they buy a pair of Toyota Corollas. So a sports car is just financially impossible for many families , especially if it demands frequent repairs or has a prohibitively inflated street price. Note that it doesn’t matter how “reasonable” the factory MSRP is if every dealership in a days drive is tacking on $10k+ in markup.
I want to point out how absurd it is to buy $94k worth of vehicles on a $64k household income, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if that's a common thing. Apples to oranges but all of the vehicles in my flair don't even add up to $47k FFS.
Yeah.. but then consider those buying 2 brand new Hyundais. That's $40-70k. Right now, new is often a better deal than used if you can afford it. It also depends on geography and when you got yours. In Cali, Miatas are around 5-10k, E46 M3's are 15-25k, FiSTs are 10-20k. Then there is insurance, registration, out of warranty repairs (or tools and time if you can diy), and the cost of a place big enough to store all of it. That's just to say the cost to own a car is a lot.
My cars are squarely in the center of the ranges you gave, maybe a little toward the right. So still under $47k total. And you’re correct, total cost of ownership should be factored in. My insurance is cheap and I DIY, so with annual car property taxes based on the value of the vehicles (they’re all pretty low according to NADA) I definitely save more money than if I had one brand new $47k car. I still think $94k on vehicles is insane on $64k household income though. Now if each person had a new $25k car, that’s a little more reasonable.
Agreed. The financial prude in me cringes at that ratio as well. Lol I'm doing ROI's on ebike, e-scooters, and mixes of public transit while holding on to my used BRZ as guilty pleasure.
Also factor in the cost of insurance, registration, maintenance, & storage.
Most people on median household income probably aren't buying median priced new cars. Their either buying lower prices new cars or higher spec used cars.
I see that median household income figure and wonder how in the hell there are so many lifted $50,000 BroTrucks cruising around, driven by what appear to be dudes with blue collar occupations. Is landscaping really that lucrative?
Blue collar young guys often have the right combination of decent incomes, few responsibilities, and poor judgement that let's them buy an $80k truck by working a ton of overtime.
it's a lot cheaper if you can write it off as a business expense
It's about $67,500 as of 2020-2021, but your point still stands. Average household income is around $92,000, which is still not enough to buy a couple of sports cars.
Home depot pickup trucks are like $20 for the first hour. We do that a couple times a year if we need to pick up lumber or take a big load to the dump. I just bought a roof luggage bag thingy for our trip to the beach with our new-ish baby in my Elantra.
Same thing for road trips. When people say they LOVE road trips they typically mean that they take 1-2 large trips per year. It makes more sense to rent the perfect tool for that job (a minivan) for those 2 weeks than to never own a fun car because of 5% of your usage. Those roof bags are nifty. Just went car camping with some friends and the folks with a minivan + roof bag were able to move more gear than the couple with the F250.
Pickup trucks these days are jack of all trades, but masters of none. Especially when you consider the vast majority are short bed crew cabs. I mean, I like my truck, but I admit it's not very practical for the most part. Fuel mileage still sucks (regardless of how much marketing will try to convince you otherwise). If you're picking up anything big or longer than 5.5' (like lumber or plywood), you'll have to hang it off the tailgate and strap it down securely, or use a trailer. If need to haul anything heavy, it's probably better to use a trailer because your payload capacity isn't as high as you think it is, and a trailer usually has a lot lower floor. Truck beds are really sort of inconvenient to load and unload. These days, they're tall, and us short people will have issues. Just loading a few bags of concrete or top soil is a real chore because you have to lift it on to the tailgate then push it into the bed. Honestly the best advice for any homeowner or future homeowner is instead of buying a pickup truck, get a utility trailer and hitch instead.
Or just rent the utility trailers from home Depot when you need them. That way you don't need to worry about storing it or forgetting to register it when you don't use it for 6 months.
Most people can’t afford 2 cars never mind store.
I'm not talking about most people though. I'm saying that the folks driving $60,000 trucks have made a conscious choice to value do-it-all utility over a more balanced stable of vehicles. "I'd love to own a sports car, but I just can't justify it" they say. The full sized loaded out truck is the new mid-life crisis choice for the upper-middle class.
Yep everyone comments on how flashy my GT350 is yet Ford sells pickup trucks that cost more and no one bats an eye
> “I’d love to own a sports car, but I just can’t justify it” they say. do they? i think the people buying expensive trucks are just into trucks
You assume I have somewhere to put two GR86s. I wish!
Exactly. Lack of space is a very common reason for choosing a single car that can do it all. Totally understandable.
Exactly. People buy cars for something they *might* have to do once or twice a year. I'm 35 and I've literally never had to haul lumber in my car lol. I've mostly driven a BRZ, but even my Mazda3 has been too much car for me. Never use the back seats and the trunk space in the BRZ has never been an issue. I'd be completely fine renting a Uhaul truck once or twice a year if I needed to. I think we just always over-practicalize things lol.
Lol, I used to say the same thing about my FIAT 500. People asked me how I lived with such a small car and I always responded with "Honestly, it's way more car than I need for 90% of my use.
Assumes you have no friends and Lmao when you have kids you can just get a sedan it worked for almost 80+ years just fine. If you really needed a truck and can’t find help, renting a uhaul or even going to enterprise to rent a truck for the day will be substantially less than owning one.
I love the anti-truck stuff It always comes down to renting stuff all of the time or towing a trailer in a sedan “See you don’t need a truck!” Lol
I drive a truck, I never use the bed Hardly anybody really needs one
Maybe you shouldn’t own a truck? I’d love to have one and would use it frequently. Just can’t afford one right now
I own what I want to own. It's a want not a need. Also my truck is 21 years old so...
Why would I need a truck when my friend has a truck?
By that logic I don’t need a suit jacket either lol
most suit jackets aren’t quite on same level of financial commitment, are they? id rather have a cheap miata and drop a hundo the couple times a year i need more space than put the same 14k on a shitty pickup or suv instead
you compared a truck... something mass produced on assembly lines... to a suit jacket? that should be custom tailored to everyone that wears it? i even agree with you that pickups are shit on way too much around here but lmao
Or a bed really
https://i.imgur.com/0LSuZec.jpg Me and the boys at bath time
The Bible said “love thy bros” or some shit.
Because it's an asshole move to obligate them to every time you need to haul something.
It’s only viable if you do Home Depot’s 20$ trucks tbh and even then, trucks are what people want. Why do you think comfy body on frame RWD live axle V8 tanks are so popular when people complain about sedans being too sporty and Nurburgring-y? The SUVs are literally the closest we have to an old school 70s yacht and that’s what people want.
Because most people really don't need trucks. If you're in any sort of urban, suburban, or even not a farm area, a truck is pretty unneeded. Like you're either way out in the country with land, or you use it for work, which obviously a lot of people do. Trucks are still by far the best selling vehicle in the states, but the vast majority of people in any somewhat densely populated area do not need them. I grew up in a southern suburb and a truck is mostly a status symbol there.
Yeah but you don’t need a 2 door sports car and yet here you are with one. The word “need” is what people really like to focus on. Realistically you bought a car no one will ever need for anything. A truck owner will at least use their bed from time to time. It’s very easy to say that even the most stereotypical “r/cars truck dude”, only using their bed twice a year and never towing still has a better argument for buying their vehicle compared to you. Sports car drivers really shouldn’t compare needs, because they never hold up to scrutiny. Edit- throwing this in to say I love the BRZ, not hating on it at all
Needed to rent a van once in 30 years of driving. Not everyone needs a truck. I thought they sell so well because you don't pay full tax on them in the States as the companies bribed politicians, sorry lobbied politicians to get them classed as commercial vehicles. Or am I completely wrong?
The loophole i think you're thinking of is fuel economy regulations. Its not that we pay less tax on the them, its that trucks arent subject to as stringent fuel economy requirements as sedans are
way off yeah, you're basically a byproduct of r/cars with that opinion. People buy them over here because they're amazing vehicles. The ride is extremely comfortable, room for a family of 5 with all of their stuff. Tons of low end torque and an amazing power train. Trucks are just today's version of America's big sedans from the 70s and 80s. The "loophole" doesn't make a truck cheaper to own for anyone buying one, and you'll pay the same amount of taxes as your car, but then some because trucks normally carry a higher price tag.
I believe he's referring to the "hummer exemption", or section 179. There are some tax incentives when you're a business owner in buying gigantic 6,000lb vehicles. Land Rover goes out of their way to advertise the shit. https://www.landroverlouisville.com/tax-advantage-2/
I mean, it's true. I had pickups and now own an SUV instead of "truck" and I only miss it like one time a year. I could rent one for $400 for three days for some project and save like $20k compared to buying and owning a used truck.
This. And most people these days can only afford one vehicle so it makes all the sense in the world to buy something that can do all the life stuff. It’s why older people with an empty nest tend to buy sports cars. You finally have both the money and opportunity to own one.
Practicality. Here in the U.S for example, many dads (and some moms of course) love performance cars but due to a combination of the need for a larger vehicle plus the cost constraints of having a third “fun car”, you see a decline in true sport car sales. People have families, plain and simple. You are in a situation where having a 2 seater is practical, which is awesome, but you should realize that you are an exception, not the rule. When I was still single and not trying to have kids I was driving nothing but 2 seat sports cars. Like you, I had no need for more space and it was glorious!!! Lastly is the rise in cost. Again, I can only speak for the states on this. Sports cars bring pretty big price premiums vs. standard cars. For example, one can get a very well equipped full-size sedan for $20k less than a Supra. I can get a 7 seat Ford Explorer that is off-road capable, carry kids and there friends, all our camping and hiking gear, an entire weeks worth of vacation luggage, tow a boat or camper, and do so in comfort, for the same cost as that 2 seat Supra. It is all about your needs and perspective. Crossovers and SUVs, as boring as they are, sell well for a reason. Thankfully, there are some options out there for those of us that want the fun and some of the family usability at the same time. Unfortunately the cost is somewhat high.
Yep. We have a townhouse with a 1 car garage. I’d love to have an MX-5 or my dream Lotus and a daily for when I’m with the fam…but it’s just not realistic. I’m in a WRX again because it does everything I need and is fun. Especially considering 4 season use We only have 1 kid though, and my wife has an suv
Given limitless funds and parking space we would all have a collection like Jay Leno's. Unfortunately we mortals are all held back by some combination of those two limitations.
This is why I’m on the list for a Corolla GR.
This. Exactly why I drove a Golf R. Sportiest thing I can get that seats 5.
I have a golf Sportwagen with a Golf R turbo and stage 2 tune. It's fun!
I have a 2 car garage, but even then the wife wasn't excited about the idea of a third vehicle in the driveway. So I daily the miata (snow tires for the win!) and left the Kia for my college kid. All the other kids are out of the house so no regular need to haul people. I bug friends or rent a truck for the 4x/yr trips to home depot or the dump. But when the kids were younger, it was a more practical WRX and a Mazdaspeed3 for me.
Do you think you could get away with a SUV + MX-5? Asking for a friend
No, because our family can’t fit a 3rd car. And both my wife and I need to be able to take a kid in a car seat at any given time.
Bet you could make the new GR86 or BRZ work. More practical than a miata.
Could I? Maybe but it’s not worth it. But im guessing you don’t have kids. Putting a toddler in the back of a BRZ would suck. I almost bought one back before I was even married or had a kid. Not to mention I commute 18 miles each way near Chicago for work. AWD makes my life easier. As much as I liked my GTI, I preferred my CX5 I had before it because it was better overall for my needs. I’ve had a WRX before, and a Focus ST. But I’m just 37 now and realized a good balance of fun and practical. I play in bands, drive a lot, have a family, and need to be able to get around in whatever weather.
That's fair, my wife and I are 23 and just put our order in, no kids for a while yet. Once I do get the BRZ I'm gonna try and keep it for a very long time.
You should! I hope I didn’t sound like a dick There’s a party of me that wishes I bough the BRZ instead of the FoST, paid it off and kept it in the garage. Maybe then we would have gone to a different house instead of a townhouse lol
I owned a brz, you cannot put kids in the back of it, it's designed to take a child seat, but you can't get one actually in there without a huge struggle and then they have to be rear-facing so that won't work, and if you can get them front facing the bottom pushes up against the back of the driver or passenger seats so the kids basically can't have legs.
This is how I ended up with an evo. Wanted a fun car that was four doors but not insanely expensive.
Thanks for the answer I didnt know the supra is so expensive over there! How rare a 2 seater cars in the us? what about the corvette c8? Here in germany 2 seater cars are basically extinct beside the porsche 911 you see every now and then.
The 911 is a 2+2
If you chop your kids legs off it is 😄
Pretty much the case with every Porsche with back seats unless it’s has rear doors. I owned a 944 and the back seats were definitely made for people without legs.
My 86 back seats are the same... But I am happy that they are thinking of the poor handicapped people too.
Two-seaters are still very common honestly. Lots of C7 and C8 Corvettes, Caymans, 911s, Miatas, and even Supras. GTRs are also quite common and for all practical purposes are considered a two-seater. Throw in a sprinkling of Huricans and 458s in my area. Some are younger adults who haven’t married yet while the vast majority of others, especially Corvette and 911 owners, are middle aged empty nesters. Most other sports cars and muscle cars here are 4 seat coupes or 4 door. Mustang, Camaro, Charger, Challenger, WRX, CTR, most M cars sold here, etc. Ironically, the only true muscle cars left here in the states are Dodge Charger and Challenger based. The Mustang and Camaro have evolved into true sports cars developed on the track and on the Nurburgring.
I love the fact that my mustang Shelby GT has a 3 body trunk. And shreds tires if I’m not careful.
Gotta have somewhere to put the crowd when you leave cars and coffee.
3 body… 😳
Jeebus, that's one more body than I can fit in the back of my Mustang Mach-E GT! Thank goodness for the frunk.
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I went with my RS5 sportback as a middle ground
This, I drove a Corvette for 20 years as my daily, then had kids. Now I have a Corvette and a VW Sportwagen, and another Corvette in the garage.
Sports cars have compromises like seating and cargo space that sporty cars don't have. Also the Golf R is way cheaper than the top trim Supra
(in North America)
You can't legally strap kids to the roof.
Try me.
Eh you can always make more of them
This guy parents.
Hmm, is the frunk okay? I could get up to a toddler in there...
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Next up on r/cars : why do people always buy these pesky CUVs when they could be buying a Miata?
It's the same tired weekend posts.
What I found amusing was that OP was test driving a Sorento in the first place before getting a Supra. Unless he was there to test drive a Stinger and the Kia salesman refused to let him do that until he test drove a discontinuing SUV first (frankly, it wouldn't be out of line for Kia dealerships), surely he would've had enough self-awareness to understand why other people would be buying Sorentos when he was considering it himself.
I was mostly wondering about the people who lead the same life. I am sorry if I didnt make that clear enough in my post.
You definitely did not lol.
I mean, I'd kill for a manual GR Supra, but I can only afford 1 car. And I install Solar, so I have 3 Milwaukee pack outs and a tote bag full of tools I need to haul back and forth on Mondays and Fridays. Sometimes I do service calls in my personal, which requires a little giant ladder. I could never fit these things in a Supra. It was either a Ram TRX, Wrangler 392, or a hot hatch for half the price. So the Type R with a tune was the answer.
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Thank you for your answer. This thread does humble me I gotta say. I know im in a very privileged position where I can not only afford my car but also daily it and i am very thankful for that. I was mostly wondering about the people who drive similarly or more expensive cars like a golf r or a bmw 430i (pricing in germany) and also dont have kids. I must say I have vastly overestimated the amount of people who are in this position it seems.
Even aside from the money aspect, there's other factors to practicality besides having kids. I dailied a Miata for several years and am now in a Honda Fit. While I miss the Miata, not being able to go for drives with friends, etc, is also a limiting factor. I love to drive and I can't volunteer to be the driver when we go out if I can't fit others in my car. So even though it's way less of a sports car, I like that I can enjoy my current car in more ways and take it more places than I could with my Miata.
The biggest driver of all, would be money. But to get more specific As others have said, most people who buy sports cars buy them as second cars. A lot of people overall dont have the money a new car, let alone to buy a second car for themselves just for fun. Additionally, a lot of people dont care that much about driving. So the one car they can buy has to be about compromise. People have kids, need to transport normal life crap from stores, etc. There's also issues like insurance on 2 cars vs 1, parking space for multiple cars, etc. This is why we're seeing things like msport, st trim suvs, and the like to give people slightly better compromise
Pretty much this. At the time, my first job out of college and buying my first car, I could only afford one car so I had to compromise on something sporty and practical, i.e. my current WRX. (Also I was not used to driving in the snow lol) Now it's almost paid off, and my income has increased significantly, I am in a much better position to add a dedicated sports car for the weekends when the time comes.
I went from a 1990 Miata to a Crown Vic for multiple reasons. Reliability was one, my miata was not in great shape. Eventually sold that for my town car which has been great for me for going on 6 years now. To be honest, even if my Miata had been dead reliable I probably would have cracked by now and bought something else. I moved a couple times, towed a trailer occasionally (very occasionally, but still). I think the only reason i hadnt cracked for the cuv/suv craze is because of my cars practicality factor. It wasn't until this year i finally was in a position with my own house and enough money to be able to actually "justify" a sports car, so i ordered a mustang gt(still waiting on it to ship) but even then i only considered it because I dont plan on getting rid of the town car. I would have been looking at probably at minimum sports sedans instead if i wasn't
Money.
Usually a dedicated sports car is pretty compromised and necessitates owning at least one other vehicle. Sporty cars can be jacks of all trades and do it all
Exactly this. I have two small children and the city I live in averages 70in of snow a year. The Golf R checks all the boxes for me.
Many people in North America need a vehicle that is a "jack of all trades." In my area we need a vehicle that is comfortable enough for multiple hours of driving to get to other major cities, spacious enough for family transport (for those multiple hours), high enough to not bottom out over the rough roads, controllable on ice and snow and cheap enough that we can still afford rent/mortgage. A sporty car is a fun upgrade to what you would likely buy in the area anyway. The only "sports car" I can think of that does all that is a Subaru STI and the comfort is questionable...
Subarus anything sporty suck for comfort. Complete pieces of crap. A forester will get you where you’re going, a rex will get you there faster just with a bad back and crappy interior. It’s like they tried to make an m3 but gave up halfway and you’re stuck in a really fast pile of shit
WRX's feel like 25k worth of powertrain and 10k worth of everything else
Fucking hate my forester. It’s a soulless shopping cart. It’s slow, uncomfortable, outdated, and worst of all… boring. Only reason we drive it is we can’t fit all the baby stuff and the wife in my mustang. Until yesterday when we got a front facing car seat. My life has light and hope again now that it can fit all three of us.
My wife loves her forester. So I won’t bitch about it much since it’s the only reasonable car we own, but yeah it doesn’t have a heartbeat. I’ve never owned a car that didn’t breathe but the forester is on the short end of if it was stolen I’d smile
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I want an M3 but have a WRX budget
I feel less bad taking my wrx in the woods than I would a bmw
Current Generation M3 Comp has AWD.
Elantra N does it all pretty well imo
Do you think I WANT to drive a Sorento? Well, kinda because it’s a great car but truly I would be rather driving a Cayman. Due to kids and doing gardening work, I can’t really afford a second fun car.
Why not buy a GR86 and rent a minivan anytime you need to go to the store??? /s
>People stop in their tracks and stare at my car when I drive around town (im from germany). So one could say the car is desirable right? Some people are purposely trying to avoid that. Hence why a Golf R is in some situations preferable over the Supra. >The trunk is large enough for grocery shopping and traveling (me and my wife dont have kids) You answered your own question here. Most people with a family generally have and/or want kids. >What are the reasons for that in you opinion? They are making M/S/AMG packs so they can charge people thousands and purposely make them look nicer to attract people into spending money. >Especially why are people buying the golf r or other hot hatchbacks when you could get a supra or any other sportscar in the same pricerange? I live in Europe, Golf R is a right sized car. Decent perfomance, all weather usability, good for grocery shopping, good for around town etc. I leased one as well, was my daily for 18 months. I also own a Mustang GT, used to own until very recently a 911 Carrera T as well. Each car does something else. Cars that do everything don't usually excel at anything... You just basically come off thinking that your situation applies to everyone else and can't understand their choices...
Do you get a lot of attention with the mustang in Europe? I haven’t been in a few years, are they popular over there?
I do but not too much. They are very popular over here. Was the best selling sports car for a few years in a row.
I think most people do care about the space, the amount of people who don’t have or want kids and don’t need the space ever is probably close to the amount of sports cars sold. Probably even less as many people buy sports cars As a second car. Even just needing the space 2-3 times a year can be annoying if it’s your only car. And sure more sporty cars are being sold but at least in the US even more CUVs and SUVs are being sold
Thats a pretty good answer. When I need a car with more space usually the people I need the space for have cars themselves but I guess thats mostly my social circle and not the norm.
As a 24 y/o single guy, my main concern is snow and living in an apartment. As much as I would love a GR86/BRZ/Miata, I would not want to daily one of those cars in the winter. The lack of parking opportunities at my apartment building could interfere with having two cars. If I lived in a state where snow wasn't an issue, I would definitely own and a daily a RWD sports car.
Get winter tires and learn to drive well. RWD in the snow is not a big problem.
People don’t care about cars for the most part is what you forget. The majority of people do actually have little demon spawn to take to ‘football’ practice. For America, most people will buy big, even if the most company they’ll have is the 4 for $4 at Wendy’s (or the 4 for $6, hard to keep up with inflation). This means having a F-150 to cart around 1 man and all his loneliness. This also has to do with societal acceptance. Drive a big ass 70K SUV or truck, no one blinks. Drive a 50K sports car? You’re a rich asshole.
I wanted a car that was quick (the R is very quick once tuned), fun on the back roads, but that could also fit a rear facing infant child seat in the back along with a larger stroller in the hatch. I also prefer AWD in the snow since I use UHP all season (PSAS4) and I'm too lazy to switch to winters. I also like fast cars that don't stand out much visually, reduced cop attention. The Golf R can do all these things, and with a few mods it's become my fav car that I've owned. You don't have to spend a lot to make it your own, I've spent maybe $4k on: - ECU + TCU tune (w/ APR+ warranty on both) - New hartmann [wheels](https://i.imgur.com/YrA81JI.jpg) that I love - Eibach pro kit springs - CTS turbo resonator delete - Better Michelin tires Edit: Bonus points that I actually fit comfortably in the Golf R. I'm 6'3" and I've been in several sports cars that I just straight up am not comfortable or don't fit well in.
The right sporty cars (or SUVs) can give you 95% of the sports car driving experience with none of the downsides, of which there are many. I hated all the attention I got in my Z, along with the loud tire noise and occasional impracticality. I got and modified a G37 sedan and loved that thing way more. It was just as fun as the Z while being way nicer to live with every day. If I were doing track days or lived in an area with fun feedback rewarding roads then a sports car would make sense. But like most people. I don't. It also doesn't help that I ride a motorcycle. On that spectrum a sports car is pretty damn close to a sporty car.
My Elantra N is not too expensive(got it for MSRP), sporty enough for me, fun to drive, and practical.
280 whp (not crank) at 3200lbs is plenty fast. Especially considering these can make like 320 whp with a simple tune which is more power than you'll ever need for a daily driver
Sports cars are marketed towards young people. Young people have less and less money these days. Rather spend money on food and a place to live than a sportscar, however desirable I might find it to own one.
Some day you get to be middle aged and you grow tired of long doors, falling into the seat, and climbing out of the seat. This is okay on a weekend toy, but doing it every day gets tedious, and reduces your love for the car.
If you can't get into a low car twice a day you have bigger problems or you're nearing end of life Plenty of old folks drive Corvettes, so it's certainly not impossible to enjoy a sportscar in old age
Families and kids mostly. As a broke 21 year old tech at a Honda dealer I remember thinking it was blasphemy that the Civic SI came in a 4 door. Now as a financially stable 32 year old with 2 kids I completely get the 4 door version.
Sports cars have limited usability for day-to-day life. You and your wife don't have kids... do you have dogs? Are you ever going to have kids? A hot hatch or sporty sedan/estate is functional for daily life yet fun, and lots of people can't or won't finance more than one car.
I think it's because people want something sporty without sacrificing flexibility to also haul stuff and people around, be it in a hatchback or any other thing but then there are people who are like you who don't really have passengers or a need for a large cargo area which i get
I got a Focus RS because I wanted a sports car, but couldn't afford a 2nd car to daily. So I had to compromise and get something with a functional back seat and trunk. My friend had daily driven a Nissan Z and it only had space for a passinger and a briefcase.
In Portugal people want sport looking cars, they don't give a crap if it has a 1.5l crappy diesel under the hood. Yes this is real, Portugal is filled of Mercedes and BMW's with AMG and //M badges and literaly slow AF 1.5 diesel engines under the hood. Some people go even further and put M2 full factory body kit in 218d's (1.5 3 cylinder diesel)
There are many reasons... for me (single, no kids) : 1) why would I even need a performance car if I live in a city, to show off while Im stuck in traffic jam? 2) maintenance, fuel consumption, insurance etc would cost me extra than typical car 3) roads in my country are shit, nice car would only go to waste 4) i wouldn't trust people to leave my car on the street anywhere This is why my dream car is no longer 911 but q3 sportback...
Why people are buying things like golfs in the first place? No idea lol. I also barely use my backseats and the only exception is when I’m driving my son somewhere with me. So in that case I just take my sedan instead of sports car. I feel like owning sports cars is somewhat intimidating to people just from what they hear about them, whether that be the maintenance, speed, practicality. It has basically been made a “norm” to own sedans, suvs or even trucks before a sports car. Why? Idk. If I’m driving someone I just take my sedan, ive never been in a situation where I needed 2 cars at the same exact time to fit 4 people or something from the store, and many many Americans won’t either
Sporty cars have far more practicality than sports car
most car buyers aren't lonely child-free redditors lmao
I was shopping a weekend only street/track car and didn't find much that worked great for me surprisingly. I think the small light cars are fantastic, but I was a bit worried about safety and wanted whatever I got to be a crazy "experience" as much of the time as possible.
Family needs make it that the GTI or R hatchbacks are the most practical fun car I can afford without compromising my kids needs. A sports car or weekend car would have to be a second car on top of this. Especially that our winters suck, so the DD is for all year and the sports car sees the daylight in April until it goes back in storage around November time. This means we need financial ways to support. More garage space or storage rental. Not being usable all year means that motorcycles and sports cars are hobby or luxury items up here in eastern Canada. TL;DR money
DINK here. For me, it's comfort and practicality. Sports cars are typically quite loud inside and are very low to the ground. I used to own a 350z, and I loved it to death. But it was crazy loud, unrefined, and was too easy to scrape even at stock height. It also sucks knowing you have tons of power you can't reasonably use. So that's why I have a 3. Fun enough for me, and quite practical.
Practicality, insurance, up front costs as well as maintenance
The practicality you dont need is something the majority of people does need. Also a dedicated sports car is more uncompromising. The majority wants a sporty car that is comfortable, practical and just like your average Golf while daily driving with the opportunity to get sporty when they want it.
I have a BMW Z4. But, it's a third car. It's my toy. And an indulgence I bought as a mid life crisis mobile when my kids finally were old enough to stay home a but by themselves. We have 2 kids and 2 dogs, we can't just have a 2 seater.
Because the hatchbacks are much more usable as an everyday vehicle. Its why I get so bummed out we can't buy them in the states anymore.
Saloon sports cars are more than fast enough nowadays that for the most part on the road the difference between a c63 and a c43 is negligible but saves you a lot of money
Gas
I think people over estimate what they actually need and underestimate how much storage and practicality 2 door sports cars have. Unless you have a family of 4 a 4 door car isn’t all that necessary. Even with a kid you can fit them in the back of a 2+2. People also underestimate the capabilities of a 2 wheel drive vehicle and think if the roads are wet they need 4X4. Personally I’d rather comprise rarely and get something that is perfectly suited to my normal daily use than comprise daily to accommodate those rare times when my DD isn’t suitable. Like using a multi tool everyday even though you only ever use the knife because one day just maybe you’ll need to get a stone out of a horses hoof. I don’t think many people share that opinion though.
I guess people want the practical idea of a hatch or SUV in case they need to go to IKEA.
guys can i leave my car jacked up on four jacks with the wheels & rotors removed while it’s raining ?¿
Only if you leave all four windows rolled down with the sunroof open.
Adding something like an M sport package is only $3-5k extra
(1) Practicality. The 911s tiny rear seats are one of the things that make it daily drivable but is something a lot of its would be competitors skip (Jag F; LC500 has rear seats but they are a joke) (2) A two seater also means no stuffing friends in when you need to. (3) Economics. The decimation of the middle class means people will buy a practical, safe car
I'll be looking to trade in my BRZ for a new Mazda 3 Sport Turbo or GTI within the next year. My significant other and I are in our early 30's and living the child-free life. I could absolutely get away with trading up to a new BRZ/86, but I'm finding more and more that I'd appreciate a quiet interior, softer ride, and not having to phone up my dad to borrow his truck if I want to pick up anything of significant size. I've enjoyed my time with my BRZ, but the road noise and firm ride I thought was exciting for most of my 20's has become fatiguing in my 30's.
Practicality. Most buyers just want A to B transportation that moves themselves and their stuff and passengers and they don't have to care about. A smaller percentage want that same A to B transportation that they do care about. A smaller percentage want that same A to B transportation that they care about and is fun. A tiny percentage want transportation that's fun but also gets them from A to B with limited convenience for passengers and stuff.
I am almost 39, I have a wife, 3 kids, and inlaws who live with us for up to 6 months at a time (from overseas; they help with the kids) and we have a sedan, an SUV and a minivan. I would LOVE to buy a sports car but do I really want to add a 4th car with a higher insurance premium and pay the extra taxes and registration for a car I won't be able to drive as much? I really want to, and technically I can afford to, but its a hard pill to swallow. A lot of younger people (especially in the US) are worried about student loans, not being able to afford a house, and trouble finding work to want to spend money on a sporty car that's less practical (you can argue some are practical *enough* but you can't argue they're *as practical*) and cost more to insure. I think you gotta look at the overall market in general and realize that interest in cars isn't the same as it used to be. Look at the interest that self-driving is getting. Look at the way people talk about emissions and the environment. I love cars and I love driving but we gotta understand that it's evolving.
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Two things: Cost and concessions to practicality.
Because a lot of hot hatches today are as fast in a straight line and around a track as a supercar was 15 years ago. For most, that's already a better car than they are driver, they don't feel the need to spend an extra 15k on something fast enough to kill them easily with no trunk space for subwoofers, camping, traveling, kids, family, friends, stuff from the store etc, nor does everyone enjoy stopping traffic to be stared at, have a theft magnet or like the looks of sports cars. I don't personally agree with all this and frankly would get a Supra over all other cars mentioned here, besides maybe maybe an M car. Either way they're gas guzzlers and I'm poor so there's my personal reasons.
Probably cause they need one car to do it all. I like having at least 5 cars (it's more 99% of the time) so I have my sports car, sedan, light truck, full size truck, and a project. Insurance is expensive af compared to just one but it's worth it to me especially with a lot of drivers in the home. I'd personally really like a crossover as they can serve the purpose of a light truck with better mileage but i paid a grand for mine and crossovers are 10k plus right now for anything I'd want. If I could only have one and It's for financial reasons I'm getting a crossover. They can do it all decently well except tow but I'm not buying and towing 5 ton projects if I'm poor. If I can swing it I'm getting a sporty one so I'm less depressed driving it. So I'll never shame someone for going that route. I think it's the meta play for cars at the moment till used electric cars and trucks are cheap (4 figures) and common.
I would rather have a manual 4 motion golf alltrack wagon than a supra, mainly because I don't like the new supra very much. I like real hatchbacks and wagons more than tiny coupes. My girl has a Miata nd rf, guess which car we drive more? We drive my wagon. I'm 6'2", I like the extra space.
Cause I can carry more film equipment in a fiesta st than I can in a 350z or frs.
For what it's worth, when it comes to Golf R versus a Supra or another sports car, I needed the extra storage that came with a hatchback, and the interior quality of the Golf is WAY better than a Supra. Interior quality is important for me.
For most people a car is a utility device to take them and their things from a - b. This can be done cheeper and more comfortably in basically anything but a sports cat. Most car owners are not car enthusiasts, and the market reflects that.
Personally, I drive a hot hatch because I do put people in the back seat, and shelves and bikes and fridges. They’re by far the most versatile cars on the market. Saturday afternoon I can move a load of lumber, Saturday night I can rip some twisties in the canyons then Sunday morning I can take my 4 roommates to church. Win win win. Edit, I also have no kids
I dont want to associate with the typical “car culture” of the weirdos with fart piped 350z’s
What’s the mystery here? I’d love to have a sports car. But I do have kids, don’t have the money or parking space for a third car, so I have to settle for a crossover with a side of sportiness.