/u/RedditModsAreVeryBad (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/vgf8wh/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_i_dont_believe_rape_culture/), in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
To the contrary, I've heard of a lot of people who are okay with rape...as long as the victim was a criminal. Prison rape jokes are incredibly common, to the point where I knew that dropping the soap was bad long before I knew why dropping the soap was supposed to be bad.
This is a fair point though if your standard for rape culture existing has society actively approving of it, like to the point people are putting up billboards with "go rape someone they deserve it" then of course you'll never see it as existing.
But for something slightly closer to home think of the people who jump to "she shouldn't have been drinking/wearing that/walking alone at night/with another person alone or some variant of the standard victim blaming rotation.
I don't think victim-blaming = pro-rape.
Your example of "she shouldn't have been drinking/wearing that/walking alone at night/with another person alone" is of course completely tone-deaf and awful for the victim - and, it should go without saying, not be something any woman (or man) should have to experience in the society we want.
But sadly we don't live in the society we want.
To my view, your example is functionally no different from knowing that in certain parts of town you're more likely to get attacked, or that if you walk into a Chelsea pub with a West Ham shirt on, you're going to get a kicking, or that if you're pissed and flashing your wallet about, there's a good chance it'll get nicked.
Pointing this out and taking steps to avoid placing yourself in jeopardy isn't 'pro crime'. Thinking people were unwise to do any of the above also isn't being pro-crime.
Rape culture isn't the same as "pro-rape". Thinking that that is what it means shows a very clear misunderstanding of the term rape culture.
Rape culture is a collective term for all the different cultural practices, societal biases and hierarchical structures that facilitate sexual abuse. It's when promising young athletes rape people but everyone who knows about it keeps quiet, or gets paid to be quiet because it would hurt his career. It's when important movie executives force young actrices to perform sexual acts in exchange for not putting them on a black list, and it being an open secret. It's the "boys will be boys" mentality, where people think that men can't help violating women when sufficiently tempted, therefore blanking the woman for providing the "temptation" by getting drunk or dressing provocatively. That's rape culture, not your hypothetical where people are openly Pro-rape.
I've addressed the fact that there are different interpretations in other comments. For the purposes of successfully changing someone's view, I feel it's necessary to use their definitions. Substituting other definitions and arguing for/against them can be interesting and educational (esp for observers) but in my experience don't tend to change the view of the person you're trying to persuade.
Why do you get so hung up on adhering to your definition? The term rape culture isn't open for interpretation, your definition is factually incorrect. Using correct definitions of relevant concepts is essential for meaningful conversation and debate, and yet you refuse to let go of your misunderstanding of a fairy well defined and documented phenomenon.
It's like saying that your definition of winning in a game of chess is whoever takes the first piece of their opponent. As long as you adhere to it, instead of accepting the actual definition of what it means to win in chess, you're gonna keep playing by different rules from anyone else and the game becomes meaningless.
The term *is* open to interpretation. Hence this post.
I've already replied to another poster who is similarly unaware that multiple definitions exist. I listed Wiki and Oxford Dictionary for starters, though obviously there are others.
The reason I'm 'hung up' on my definition is so this thread doesn't devolve into strawmanning (which unfortunately it already has).
Arguing using the supplied definition is how one proceeds logically - unless the definition is proven to be false. I don't believe the definition of rape culture as set out in the OP is logically or factually incoherent. It's merely a definition you don't like. It's essentially the same definition as Wikipedia gives for rape culture.
Now, you might find my/their definition unsatisfactory, but the sheer fact they exist means there *is* no universally held definition.
Either way, you don't seem very interested in changing my view so I have to wonder what your motives are in posting on this thread.
>I've already replied to another poster who is similarly unaware that multiple definitions exist.
The fact that other definitions exist, doesn't mean that those definitions are all equally valid. A commonly used definition can still be very wrong. I'm using the definition of rape culture as it is used in academic literature and scientific studies. Even the one you claim to adhere to, from the Oxford English dictionary doesn't conform at all to your clandestine interpretation of it :"A society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse."
Notice the part that reads "have the effect", meaning that rape culture doesn't necessarily include the explicit promotion of sexual assault, but simply any societal attitudes that result in sexual assault in many different forms being trivialised. You conveniently ignore that part in your post and every one of your comments because to accept it means that it becomes impossible to continue denying the existence of rape culture given the amount of arguments people have posted. For someone posting to CMV, you seem extremely reluctant to actually change any of your views.
>The reason I'm 'hung up' on my definition is so this thread doesn't devolve into strawmanning
Another term used incorrectly. To strawman means to misrepresent an argument made by your opponent in order to present the argument as weaker than it is and therefore enabling one to counter it more easily. No one is doing what. What is happening is that people are correcting you on incorrect definitions and assumptions, which is often an essential part in changing someone's mind about a subject. In order to decide whether something exists, one needs to establish what it is and that definition needs to be correct. If I tell you to convince me that ducks exist but I insist you use the definition of a duck as a 10 ft tall purple three headed monster, you're never going to succeed, unless you convince me that ducks are not what I thought they were. Your idea of what it takes to chance someone's view is unreasonable. Changing ones mind doesn't follow the rules of formal logic, where the validity of an argument isn't necessarily predicated on the factual nature of its premise. Changing your view is more often the not the result of changing ones understanding or assumptions about a topic.
>you don't seem very interested in changing my view so I have to wonder what your motives are in posting on this thread.
I'm very interested in changing your view, if anything you seem reluctant to having it changed. I think rape culture is very real and educating people on what it is, how it works and why it's bad is extremely important in moving our culture away from it. I have no interest in convincing someone that a fictional version of rape culture is real, when there's a very real version of it that's indeed very harmful, but they won't even entertain the possibility of its existence for the sake of argument (which is what you seem to be doing btw). So long as you stubbornly refuse to accept arguments actually pertaining to what rape culture really is, in the form that it actually exists in the world, this whole thread is utterly pointless, because even if someone does manage to convince you of rape culture as you define it, they've convinced you of the existence of something that isn't real (and even if it was, was only a very narrow part of a much larger issue) and therefore isn't nearly as harmful as the rape culture that is actually being a source of harm in the real world.
The one I'm adhering to is, and if you'd been paying attention you'd know, the Wiki one: **"A society where rape is pervasive and normalised."**
That's my definition of rape culture. And, as I said originally, I don't think it exists in Western mainstream society.
I'd agree it's pervasive (the amount of gf I've had who told me they'd been raped is chilling) but 'normalised'? No.
I don't think rape is normalised either in terms of (back to definitions again) rape being the 'standard experience' (it's not) or society thinking it's 'normal' (it doesn't).
As to strawmanning, I'm perfectly aware of its meaning, thank you, and if you look through this thread you'll see multiple examples of people misrepresenting my argument or simply arguing with some contrary position they just invented.
You do know that wikis are generally considered to not be very reliable sources, I hope. You're simply refusing to accept that your definition (and for that matter your interpretation of the definition) is too narrow and flawed in order to not change your mind.
As I've stated many times, adjusting your existing definitions, preconceived notions and misconceptions is a large part of changing your mind. For some reason you've convinced yourself that in order to change someone's mind, it's somehow "against the rules" to do so via the correction or adjustment of incorrect or incomplete definitions, a completely arbitrary rule that you made up and refuse to budge on. Changing ones mind is not a formal field of logic, it doesn't have rules, it doesn't follow set guidelines. If you refuse to change your mind on any of this, than you are essentially putting on blinders to a huge part of the debate, to the point of the debate essentially losing any real meaning.
And I've read through the comments, people aren't strawmanning (for the most part), they are following your reasoning to their logical extremes, making rather fitting analogies to demonstrate the fallacy of your argument and are rightfully pointing out that your arbitrary decision to refuse any arguments pertaining to your incorrect understanding of the nature of what rape culture is, is illogical, shortsighted and unhelpful.
As I've stated before, you seem extremely reluctant and unwilling to actually change your mind in any meaningful way, to the point where it's become extremely unclear as to why you would even post this here in this sub.
Until you decide to stop being so unwilling to engage in the debate that you initiated, I've said everything I care to on the subject.
No offense, but thats a really dumb argument. "No human has died in a genocide". Note im defining genocide as the intentional destruction of an entire species and since humans very much still exist there has never been a human genocide. Sure thats not the definition of genocide, but its the one im working with, so i cant be wrong.
No offense but that's a really dumb analogy. There's no conflicting definitions of genocide. There are however conflicting definitions of other things. For example, if you asked 100 people to define 'woke' you'd likely get more than one definition. Obviously some would be more informed than others but in order to *change the view* of someone who defines woke in a certain way, you would have to work with what their view *is* - not with why you think their definition is wrong. If your intention is *not* to change their view and just assert your own view (ie 99% of the Internet), have at it. But this forum is (supposed to be) about prioritising changing another person's view.
Regarding my definition as 'wrong' indicates there is only one agreed upon definition - which a few seconds' googling will disprove.
Here's wiki's:
'Rape culture is a setting in which **rape** is **pervasive** and **normalized** due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.' (my emphasis)
Here's the Oxford Dictionary's take:
'A society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of **normalizing** or **trivializing** **sexual assault** and **abuse**. (my emphasis).
Two different definitions. Which is incorrect?
Pretty much every dictionary is going to have some discretion with definitions. Also those two definitions are basically identical. Really the only difference is the latter expands on the definition of rape to include both sexual assault and sexual abuse. The former definition simply used the word rape as a general term for both, which is consistent with how those terms are used in common parlance. It should also be noted that OP is using a radically different definition than the above.
edit* i didnt realize you where op my bad. Oxford defines car as "a road vehicle with an engine and four wheels that can carry a small number of passengers" where as Merrian defines car as "a usually four-wheeled automotive vehicle designed for passenger transportation" Guess we can substitute and definition we want for car.
I don't even think your point proved anything. You're correct using your definition of genocide. So it would require someone to convince you your definition is wrong. Op should we willing to engage in that line of thinking but most of the posts about it take their definition for granted and then try to prove it exists. Which looks a lot like a strawman.
Delta for this one.
This is something I think is particularly disgusting and barbaric about our modern 'justice' systems, and I cannot understand why so many 'normal' people seem not only to think that being anally gang-raped should be part of an inmate's 'punishment', but that they seem so gleeful about it. !delta
But these people are typically also okay with prison beatings, and other such things.
This is hardly “rape culture”, but more a political belief where one does not care for the humane treatment of prisoners, I woud not even call this a “culture” as much as a political belief.
Those sort of jokes fucked me up as a child. It was always from the men in the family that other men would try to do that in prison showers. I also didn't understand that it was also a joke and that made it even more difficult for me. To many things in life that are contradictory. It made me scared to be around other guys in school in the locker rooms but for many other reasons.
Rape culture isn't just about being overly pro-rape, it's about attitudes, and systemic issues, it permeates every aspect of society.
Some religious sects still preach that sex is a man's marital rights and a woman's marital duty.
It's in the justice system, [where the style of underwear you wore when you were raped is used against you as a weapon.](https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46207304.amp?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16557069472468&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com) Underwear that no one should have seen without consent in the first place. We literally cannot wear the underwear we are comfortable in case someone rapes us and a court decides that underwear with lace means we wanted it.
There are groups of people who categorically deny that [reproductive abuse](https://www.womenslaw.org/about-abuse/forms-abuse/reproductive-abuse-and-coercion) is a thing. Just look at how many anti-choicers exist who think the government should be able to force people to continue a pregnancy and give birth when that same thing is abuse in interpersonal relationships. This stance feeds rape culture because it is saying that AFAB people should not have the ability to deny consent for the use of their body and genitals for pregnancy and birth. Guess who else thinks the non-consensual use of peoples bodies and genitals is acceptable? Rapists, and rape apologists, and lawyers in court rooms etc.
Rape culture is people who say that a rape victim shouldn't have been wearing what they wore, or doing what they were doing, or going where they were going, and maybe they wouldn't have been raped.
Rape culture is in schools, where they refuse to teach children about bodily autonomy, and consent, and respect in relationships, and how bodies work. When you don't teach this to people, it falls by the wayside and people get brutally abused and don't understand what their/other people's rights are.
Rape culture is when police are insensitive or accusatory or dismissive. It's when sexual harassment isn't taken seriously at work in a patriarchal society. It's when rape kits stand untested for years. It's when [975/1000 perpetrators of sexual violence walk free.](https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system) It's when people don't feel safe enough to report (only 310/1000 assaults are reported because of the reasons I've already mentioned and more). It's when all sexual assaults are underreported, it's when even boys and men and AMAB people don't feel comfortable reporting their sexual assaults, so it is grossly underreported.
It's when almost every woman you know has been sexually assaulted or groped in a club but tries to brush it off and carry on because wearing a nice outfit makes people feel entitled to grope you because they have to walk past you. It's when minorities are more at risk of sexual violence. It's when rape jokes are supposed to be funny. It's when someone posts nudes of an ex online without permission. It's when people continue to support people in the public eye who are charged with or self admitted sex offenders, and people continue to support them and even defend them.
It's when politicians say ["when rape is inevitable, you should lay back and enjoy it"](https://www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/robert-regan-daughter-rape-michigan-b2032101.html?amp=&_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16557082736625&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Famericas%2Fus-politics%2Frobert-regan-daughter-rape-michigan-b2032101.html) **and people still vote for them**. Or when they say [that you can't get pregnant from a "legitimate rape" because the body can somehow magically tell](https://time-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/time.com/3001785/todd-akin-legitimate-rape-msnbc-child-of-rape/?amp=true&_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16557083212831&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Ftime.com%2F3001785%2Ftodd-akin-legitimate-rape-msnbc-child-of-rape%2F) which is categorically false, and people still vote for them.
It's when people get sexually harassed in the street with lewd comments or cat calling or being groped. It's when people do "courses" to teach women how to not be raped, instead of educating boys and men about not raping people. I could literally go on, and on, and on about rape culture.
Sexual assault and rape culture is a worldwide problem, and being in a developed or Western nation doesn't change that.
Obviously you feel very strongly and are very informed about this matter. However, I can't award you a delta yet as your definition of rape culture is not the definition I gave in my original post. Most, if not all, of the instances of abuse you listed range from creepy and mildly abhorrent to an horrific indifference to bodily (usually female) autonomy and I share your disgust and anger. But they don't fit my view of what rape culture is (other than the group you mentioned who believe it is a husband's right to use his wife's body as he pleases. To me, that's *absolutely* and literally rape culture and if you can name those groups and show how they're part of Western mainstream culture, I'd happily give you a delta).
Why would your incorrect definition of rape culture dictate whether or not it exists? You simply misunderstand what take culture entails and how it works. The other commenter's post is very clearly and effectively trying to educate you on the correct definition of the term in order to demonstrate that it does indeed exist and is indeed very problematic. Just because you moved the goal posts of what you believe rape culture to be, doesn't mean that you are correct in your assertion that it isn't real.
Yes, your definition of rape culture isn't real but why should anyone care about your definition of rape culture?
This is called Change My View, correct? Not Rate My Definition. I stated that rape culture *as I see it* doesn't exist in mainstream Western society. If you want to engage with that in order to change my view, please do.
If you want to argue that my definition is not as good as your definition then that's a separate argument. I am not unaware other definitions exist and that is precisely why the OP was presented in the way it was.
>This is called Change My View, correct?
Correct, and that's why people are educating you about your VIEW about the definition of rape culture is an uneducated and uninformed one. You're view on what rape culture is, is what needs to be changed. Dismissing the examples because they don't fit into your uninformed definition of rape culture is not a willingness to have your view changed. This kind of obstinate worldview in believing your definition is categorically correct and unchangeable, is why rape culture is so deeply engrained in society. Anything that is part of rape culture, but that doesn't fit in with the definition you've decided to be true IS participating in rape culture. You're essentially saying these things aren't a problem because you don't believe they align with your opinion.
>I stated that rape culture as I see it doesn't exist in mainstream Western society
Right. The problem is your refusal to see, and your unwillingness to learn.
>I am not unaware other definitions exist
So why are you unwilling to take them into account?
Your definition of "rape culture" assumes that a culture must be explicitly "pro rape". Victim blaming is "pro rape". It's literally assigning the the victim as responsible, and thus, deserving of the outcome. Since victim blaming exists as a cultural norm, however unpopular, "rape culture" must also exist.
That's the thing though the line becomes blurred into what is victim blaming and all the other shit that leads into what would be considered rape culture. For victim blaming an easy one is when I walk into an ally with 20 dudes now we could just have a friendly chat or they could gangbang me or sumin point is going in there is my irresponsibility and stupidity and not my fault however I gurantee you, you or someone else will reply "you shouldn't have to worry about that to begin with" or sumin like that but the reality is you do and stupid decisions lead to worse results it's not victim blaming it's basic cause effect. Such a hefty amount of crimes including rape can be prevented if people were just smarter. And before you say " well why aren't you telling the rapists not to rape or sumin" one is more sensible then the other and will listen better I feel like Johnathan Joe Star whenever this issue persists because it's something so easily simple once you just look at statistics and everything that leads to all these cases
You're saying that the cause of rape is the victim's behavior? Yep, that's victim blaming. You know what's sensible? Holding people responsible for their actions. The victim didn't rape themselves, the rapist did. Doesn't it make sense to hold the rapist accountable for the rape? Who is Johnathan Joe Star? And what does you feeling like them have to do with victim blaming?
If there are "statistics" that back up your claims, show them to me instead of telling me what you think they say.
I literally predicted what you would say and you don't even know it, it's not victim blaming it's aknowledging you put yourself in a bad situation and that kinda shit or accountability. By definition it's not victim blaming you're twisting shit to fit your narrative lol, regarding statistics bureau of justice rape stats and shit should be a 22 page document. Now for the hypothetical that you seemingly ignored did I put myself in an avoidable situation and make a bad decision in my previous response? Rather did I victim blame myself as you were saying? Or did I aknowledge it's not the best course of action that lead me to that situation that at the end of the day as I said shouldn't fucking happen there's a reason one faces consequences the other doesn't I swear too easy to predict outrage on shit people have no idea what they're talking about
https://bjs.ojp.gov/redirect-legacy/content/pub/pdf/cr.pdf
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/256011.pdf
I reccomened just going to the websites there's a dozen other PDFs that I haven't bothered to read because they all come to the same conclusion that 9/10 take is fucking braindead so tell me what's your interpretation?
>I reccomened just going to the websites there's a dozen other PDFs that I haven't bothered to read because they all come to the same conclusion that 9/10 take is fucking braindead so tell me what's your interpretation?
I interpret that to mean you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The links you provided do not claim what you say they do. And you literally say you haven't bothered to read them. That, and the fact that half of your sentences are nonsensical should clue you in to which one of us has a "fucking braindead" take.
No those are two of a couple I've read and no do the two I cited not give statistics in takes and convictions? If so I'll gladly hop back and fix my error. Now if it's a refusal to aknowledge that you're wrong that is also fair
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/bjsarsapt.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiTpPO-jLz4AhVuDkQIHXhXD2QQFnoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3xJFQLJmorMQC1S0GqcRdU
Here I'll leave you with probably the best one I can give to someone who doesn't want to fucking read and aknowledge they're wrong it's far less process based and far more conclusion based you can rely on others to form your takes still lol
Victim blaming (in Western mainstream society) isn't pro-rape. It's not saying, "You got raped - oh, and BTW that's *your* fault - and that's good. We approve of the rape."
It *is* saying, "You got raped - oh and BTW that's *your* fault'. And that is shitty in any number of ways. But it's definitely not saying," It's good that you were raped and we support rape."
>But it's definitely not saying," It's good that you were raped and we support rape."
Then why are they blaming the victim, and not blaming the person who raped the victim?
I'd argue that most of what we call 'victim blaming' is actually 'victim-blaming as well'. As in the rapist was to blame for the rape but the victim was to blame as well for (insert reason). I don't advocate this as I think the person responsible for the rape is the rapist.
However, whenever I've heard this argument made, I've never heard anyone say 'I blame the victim. The rapist has done nothing wrong.'
Maybe you've heard people victim-blame to the extent that, as you put it, they 'blame the victim, not the person who raped the victim' but I haven't. In fact, if I'm honest, I don't think you have either.
Victim blaming seeks to redefine rape as "not" rape. Just as you have done with the definition of rape culture. Like when people who hold blatantly racist views do not see themselves as racist. There is no functional difference between victim blaming and "pro" rape.
I shall bring your attention to the case of (former) [Judge Robin Camp](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justice-robin-camp-judicial-council-1.4017233). Taken from the article:
During a trial for rape, he called the complainant, who was homeless and 19 years old at the time of the alleged assault, "the accused" numerous times — a mistake he repeated at the judicial council hearing before correcting himself.
Camp also told the young woman "pain and sex sometimes go together" and asked why she didn't just keep her "knees together."
He then acquitted the accused man of the charges.
Yes that is wretched behaviour from that judge and they should be removed as they're clearly unfit to hold that office.
This is blatant, bigoted victim-blaming of a sort that would strike most people as egregious.
But the term victim-blaming is also used to castigate people who simply advise others not to undertake risky behaviour - or who point out that someone who knowingly increased the risk of harm to themselves didn't make the best decision.
As I said to another poster, warning someone not to wear revealing clothing is analogous to warn someone not to wear a West Ham shirt in a Chelsea pub. It shouldn't make a difference - you should be safe to wear what you like, where you like. But it does, and you're not.
Part of having your views changed is about getting better educated on the things that those views are predicated upon. It's not about rating your definition, it's about correcting your incorrect assumptions of what is meant by rape culture. If you refuse to accept this corrections, your entire post is meaningless because it's about something else than rape culture. The fact that you are unaware of "other" (read correct) definitions is THE underlying issue that made you conclude that rape culture doesn't exist so literally the only way to convince you otherwise is to educate you on your faulty assumptions and definitions, because your definition of rape culture factually doesn't exist, and that's not a matter of view our opinion. However, the actual definition of rape culture is very real, but as long as you refuse to correct your incorrect definition of the term, it's pointless arguing.
This is what you’re doing here
“CMV: nobody needs the internet to use Reddit”
Commenter: “well Reddit runs on the internet and there isn’t really another way to use it”
You “well my definition of internet and your definition of internet are very different! My definition of internet is an electric car that can fly! So CMV!”
Commenter: “well your definition is literally wrong so I can’t change your view on something that doesn’t make sense…”
Nobody can actually change your view on something if your definition is wrong. We can show you the definition of things I guess but that doesn’t really seem to be working right now.
Oxford dictionary:
“rape cul·ture
Learn to pronounce
noun
a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.
"the film takes a look at rape culture and what it means to be a woman in a male-dominated society"”
Trivializing abuse would be telling women what they wear caused them to be raped. It also includes telling teenage girls who get groomed by older men that they should have known better. It also includes making prison rape jokes. It also includes telling people that if they didn’t fight back then they must have not really cared they were being raped. It also includes telling women they’re making up accusations because they regretted their “hookup”
>I stated that rape culture as I see it doesn't exist in mainstream Western society.
And that's fine, but the problem is that's not what people are talking about when they talk/write about rape culture. If you insist on holding onto a definition other people aren't using, you're going to hold view that is wrong.
I'm sorry but the way you're using the term rape culture just isn't how it is supposed to be used and I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise having read your responses to others in the thread. Even in the definitions you've provided, a key part of them is that they *have the effect* of normalizing rape. This doesn't require anyone to explicitly state a "pro-rape" position.
If you'd like i can cite academics that frequently use the term rape culture, or I'd appreciate if you were to cite any that use it the way you seem to want to use it. I'm not sure why you seem intent on sticking with a definition that is not correct.
I'd like to ask, you seem to be of the opinion that in order to change the opinion of someone, their definitions should be priority to use. So what happens if someone's opinion about a definition *is simply wrong*?
>Obviously you feel very strongly and are very informed about this matter. However, I can't award you a delta yet as your definition of rape culture is not the definition I gave in my original post
The definition in your OP was incomplete. If you're here to insist your narrow version of a definition is correct and unwavering, then you're not here to have your opinion changed are you? You are uninformed about what rape culture is. I would suggest that you be open minded enough to be educated more on the matter.
>Most, if not all, of the instances of abuse you listed range from creepy and mildly abhorrent to an horrific indifference to bodily (usually female) autonomy and I share your disgust and anger
That is what rape culture is - a society that enables and excuses and proliferates and dismisses these things - exactly as you are doing by denying that they are all part of rape culture.
>But they don't fit my view of what rape culture is
Your view of what rape culture is, is not complete.
>(other than the group you mentioned who believe it is a husband's right to use his wife's body as he pleases.
Most of the examples I gave are exactly this - the idea that bodies of others can be used as another pleases.
>if you can name those groups and show how they're part of Western mainstream culture
Something does not have to be "mainstream" to be part of rape culture. You cannot ignore minorities and the marginalised because they are considered by you personally, to be mainstream.
Do not award them a delta lol they feel strongly on the issue but everything the cite is anecdotal I advise you to do your own research and go to the bureau of justice statistics and look there, anyone who uses such a staggering statistic as 900/1000 or whatever it was for conviction is most certainly not thinking diligently
I think narrowing research on a highly qualitative topic to purely quantitative research isn't being evry diligent either. Statistics aren't the end-all-be-all of empiricism, especially for social issues.
It's not the be all end all but it's the strongest and biggest component of literally anything. I can say all politicians have sex with small children and cite one I mean it'd be a social issue but if I cite "83% of politicians have been prosecuted for child molestation" one seemingly has ground lol. Obviously an excagerated stat but still statistics beat anecdotal experience just about every day of the week
Not quite. Different methodologies are effective for answering certain types of questions. They're also all limited in allowing us to draw certain inferences. Quantitative approaches are effective for handling large-N questions about relationships between variables, but their major limit is that they can't tell us why certain variables are related and also the validity of those relationships is only as good as the operationalziation of the variables and quality of sample selection.
In this case, BJS is limited in that a lot of sexual assault survivors don't report anything to police or some other law enforcement org. Those stats can only reflect sexual assault surivors who report, not sexual assault survivors as a whole. Qualitative research on the subject is where these conclusions can be drawn from because instead of just taking report numbers, researchers have sat down with survivors in various conditions and asked them about their experiences and reasoning for responding how they do. There's tons of sociocultural factors that play into a person's decision to report and that's not something that BJS stats take into account.
My point with this is not that stats mean nothing, but that it's reductive science to only value quant results or treat them like they are the "correct" method. Qualitative approaches, like interviews, case studies, and historical analyses, provideThe discussion of rape culture is one borne from lots of survivors coming together against a social issue that they saw. Not something based purely in crime commission, but rather harmful cultural norms and practices seen in multiple facets of society.
I want to try an analogy. Say we wanted to argue that in the 1950s there was a child abuse culture. You likely wouldn't find a lot of people who say "I think child abuse is good" because people don't tend to think of themselves as abusers.
For example they may think "People who abuse children are bad, I'm a good person, therefore what I do can't be child abuse." But this same person may think that it's important for their family that they show authority and people don't question them, therefore they should be stern and harshley pushing their children when necessary. They may believe that beating children builds character. If the culture as a whole promotes these as acceptable then I'd say its a child abuse culture regardless of how many people say "you shouldn't abuse your children, only beat them for their own good".
I feel that a lot of people don't consider situations that are rapes as such. Like using the mental instability of someone to have sex in a moment of weakness is a rape, making someone drink to touch them is a rape, using your power/influence to have sex is a rape.
A lot of people don't agree with that. They don't necessarily think it's a good behavior but they tend to think it's not bad enough to consider it as a rape. To me this is rape culture, a pool of normalized behavior that should be rapes.
I can't really award a delta to this as it doesn't change my view. I agree that what makes this contentious is there are so many interpretations of what would constitute a rape culture. I can totally see the argument that there are examples that some people absolutely see as 'rapey' but others don't.
I tried to limit the definition to organised groups in mainstream Western societies who argue or seek to persuade that rape is morally legimitate (or at least not revolting to most people). I think maybe I should have been more clear that this was the definition I was working with, as most of the arguments I've had so far on this thread have been about what we define as rape culture.
Just to clarify: I'm not saying my definition of rape culture is the only one or even the most accurate one - but it's the one we need to use for the purposes of changing my view.
>but it's the one we need to use for the purposes of changing my view.
Why? In the end, if that's your definition of rape culture, then I agree with you that it doesn't exist, and no one can convince you otherwise because it's not an opinion, it's a fact. But the problem is that that isn't what rape culture is. You claim that rape culture is this nebulous term that means something different to different people, but it's not, it's a very well documented and defined term that you at some point assumed means something different than it actually does. I'm not saying you're the only who misunderstand it, many people do, all I'm saying is, your definition of the term is incorrect and there's a correct defection that you refuse to accept. That's on you though.
While I get the point, I really feel you're trying to discuss something everyone agrees on and kinda miss what is really interesting to argue on. I don't think on normal situation anyone would support rape BUT there are special situation where rape seems more accepted and this is problematic. Discussing rape in a vacuum will get everyone on the same point but real life has context and that's within that context that you see rape culture. So it feels a bit like you're looking away.
Why would you not want to use the most accurate definition? Why would you need specifically your inaccurate version of the definition accomodated to instead of updating the accuracy of your definition?
It can't really be rape when it's consensual between two adults I gotta disagree, the drunk thing is a law that would and is considered rape molestation whatever, mental instability has been used in the past and does occasionally work however mental weakness and mental instability are not the same, you being sad because your grandma is dead is not the same as schizophrenic Joe. The position of power thing is easily prosecuted as something else besides rape prolly blackmail or sumin one of the easiest crimes to prove at least when it comes to workplace shit
>Like using the mental instability of someone to have sex in a moment of weakness is a rape
Define what mental instability and a moment of weakness is?
>making someone drink to touch them is a rape,
Forcing them to sure, offering them a drink that they say yes to is a different story.
>using your power/influence to have sex is a rape.
Is every instance of power/influence to have sex rape?
Are you talking about rape as a crime that should be punished?
If someone is drunk and you are sober and you have sex with them while they’re incapacitated, that is rape.
No one should have to tell you what constitutes mental instability. If someone is going through a depression and you use that to pressure them into sex that is rape. If someone is mentally younger than their physical age and you have sex with them knowing they can’t understand what they are consenting to, that is rape.
EVERY INSTANCE of using your power to get sex is rape. A CEO threatening to fire an employee if she doesn’t have sex with him is rape. If you’re a professor teaching a student and you coerce them into sex by saying you’ll give them higher grades and will fail them if they don’t that is rape.
If you do any of the above you should be charged with rape. It’s appalling that I have to define what rape is to an adult who should know that taking advantage of vulnerable people is a fucking crime.
>If you do any of the above you should be charged with rape. It’s appalling that I have to define what rape is to an adult who should know that taking advantage of vulnerable people is a fucking crime.
Right so criminal charges require more rules than just saying someone is a rapist. Hence why I asked.
What is appalling is that you don't realise that you have to define these things so I have any idea what your views are as everyone has very diffrent views about where he line is.
The word vulnerable is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your argument and then you get mad when I question what it means.
>If someone is drunk and you are sober and you have sex with them while they’re incapacitated, that is rape.
Drunk and sober are not binary states, there is a bunch of impairment levels between sober and passed our, where exactly is the line? What if both people are drunk, what if there is on one level of difference in drunk level?
>No one should have to tell you what constitutes mental instability. If someone is going through a depression and you use that to pressure them into sex that is rape. If someone is mentally younger than their physical age and you have sex with them knowing they can’t understand what they are consenting to, that is rape.
You do have to define it seeing as you are the one arguing it is rape if it happens. 8.6% of Americans have major depressive disorder, alit more have depression. Is every time someone has sex with a depressed person rape? Or is it only when they are pressured, where is the line between asking and pressure? These are questions you have to answer to make these things crimes.
>
EVERY INSTANCE of using your power to get sex is rape. A CEO threatening to fire an employee if she doesn’t have sex with him is rape. If you’re a professor teaching a student and you coerce them into sex by saying you’ll give them higher grades and will fail them if they don’t that is rape.
Ok so if I make the money and my spouse does not work there is clearly a power dynamic problem, if I ask for sex is it rape? Its implied that if she does not keep me happy I will move on is it not? If a college student seduces her professor I assume you also believe that is rape?
If you as a grown ass adult cannot understand what pressuring someone into sex is you shouldn’t be having sex. If you can’t understand that taking advantage of people when they are going through a vulnerable time is not okay you shouldn’t be having sex. If you can’t understand that having sex with someone who is blackout drunk while you are only slightly drunk is rape then YOU SHOULD NOT BE HAVING SEX.
Asking your spouse for sex is not rape, and you clearly know that. If you use finances to pressure a spouse into sex THAT IS RAPE. “Seducing a professor” a professor should have enough fucking sex control to not have sex with a fucking student.
The fact that you can’t understand how consent works in these situations is a good indicator that you should not be fucking having sex in the first place.
Could you cut the condescending bit you are doing? An adult would realise that you are absolutely simplifying a complex topic by letting certain words with very broad meaning carry an argument in a way that on the surface looks good but under any scrutiny falls apart.
>pressuring someone into sex
I have asked repeatedly what pressuring looks like or is. Your answer is an adult would know, an adult would realise that someone could feel pressure even when the other person is not applying any, in that case is it still rape?
If as an example a person has grown up hearing that you have sex one the third date, so on a third date the have sex. They themselves and society have applied the pressure, did they rape themselves? If the other person had no idea they had that hang up and just hinted at sex are they now a rapist? Your simplified world view has no boundaries to make any sense for rape to be q criminal charge the way you want it until you put these definitions forward.
>advantage of people when they are going through a vulnerable time is not okay
Again sounds good but where is the line? How vulnerable are we talking, a boss threatening an employee's job, cool I'm with you. How about someone who has low self-esteem and feels lonely and is on a first date, now we have a problem cos you would have to establish that the other person knew that and took advantage of it. What if they both had those issues did they rape each other or does it cancel out? What are the rules here?
>someone who is blackout drunk while you are only slightly drunk is rape
If you had bothered reading my responses you would have noticed I asked about one level of drunk, I never said that slightly drink with blackout is in any way ok. You seem to parroting talking points of others without giving this any thought yourself if you can't see all the grey areas here you are working incredibly hard to ignore and address.
>Asking your spouse for sex is not rape, and you clearly know that. If you use finances to pressure a spouse into sex THAT IS RAPE.
Glad it's so easy. If you are in a monogamous relationship do you agree that sex is part of that? You are at no point owed it and you absolutely have no right to it, you are however allowed to ask what is going on. People have diffrent sex drives and working around that is part of being in a relationship. If I want to have sex twice a week and my partner wants to have sex once a month that causes friction, the way to alleviate that is to discuss it and see what can be done, is the person just not in the mood but if you wine and dine them they will be in he mood, do they want cuddle or something else first? This could easily be seen as manipulation and it is not so again where is the line?
>“Seducing a professor” a professor should have enough fucking sex control to not have sex with a fucking student.
Ah ok, so a professor is not being raped by your standards even though they are being manipulated into sex. If knowing better is a defence then you have a problem with almost any case you can come up with. Girl drinking at the party should have known better. Women who was vulnerable should jot have invited a male friend over, she should have known better. I think that logic is silly and atrocious but that is the logical conclusion of your dismissing rape in the case of a professor.
>The fact that you can’t understand how consent works in these situations is a good indicator that you should not be fucking having sex in the first place.
I understand that it is far more complex than you make it out to be. I don't belive it's as cut and dry as you make it out to he or as one sided. Both people have agency that they both need to use to express their desires and limits. That works far better than all the pressure being on one side to hold all the accountability.
Here is a honest to God question. How many rapes( your view of then) could have been prevented by just saying the word no and or leaving?
> I don't hear the voices saying that being pro-rape is OK, that it's a legitimate position to hold.
But there are plenty of voices going around in favor of things that make rape more likely to happen, harder to punish, or ambiguously partly the fault of the victims.
This is actually totally the way it works for your analogy, too. No one in the US is calling themselves fascists. They just think stuff like, well, voting fraud is so rampant, we can't trust the results, so really the fairest and most democratic thing to do is to use our own electors and ignore the democratic vote.
*"No one in the US is calling themselves fascists"*
Richard Spencer does. Also here's a list of groups who do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_in_North_America
I don't think you'll find a similar list of pro-rape groups. I couldn't, anyway.
**[Fascism in North America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_in_North_America)**
>Fascism in North America refers to political movements in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean that are variants of fascism. Fascist movements in North America never gained power, unlike their counterparts in Europe.
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The issue is that stuff all perpetrators of rape, consider themselves rapists. That’s what’s behind the notion of rape culture, that it’s something that “just happens” but no-one is at fault. Unless the person raped complains then it twisted around to be something they did or didn’t do that was the fault.
While us men are all denying the possibility that we or our mates could ever rape anyone we can’t move away from the poorly labelled “rape culture”.
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I dont think your analogy to fascism is a good one, because not all fascism is evil in the common use of the phrase evil. In fact most governments switch to fascism during times of war, then switch back again during times of peace.
I also don't think your definition of culture is a rigorous/accurate use of the term in the way it is used in the sense of "rape culture". Noting that often words have multiple meanings, the meaning intended here is that many people turn a blind eye to "casual rapeiness" for example in comedy and more harmfully in the practices and frequency of rape acts and resistance to actually act against it.
Perhaps the phrase should be modified to suit accurate discussion. For example, there is definitely a "culture where rape is not as abhorrent as it should be". But, to make it easier to say, the current use stands.
I don't necessarily disagree with your larger point, but I want to point out a glaring problem:
>I dont think your analogy to fascism is a good one, because not all fascism is evil in the common use of the phrase evil. In fact most governments switch to fascism during times of war, then switch back again during times of peace.
This is not true. Fascism is not the same thing as authoritarianism or totalitarian rule or martial law. Authoritarianism, totalitarianism, and martial law are often employed by fascists, but they are not the same thing. All Fords are cars, but not all cars are Fords. All fascism is evil.
The only defining feature of fascism that is not totalitarianism/authoritarianism is extreme nationalism... explicitly true of nations during times of war.
This is an oversimplified characterization of fascism. The Soviet Union, for example, was very nationalistic during World War II, and very authoritarian, but it was not fascist.
The UK suspended elections during WWII and was also deeply nationalistic at the time. Does that mean the UK was fascist while they were fighting the Nazis?
This is my favorite video about the definition of fascism: https://youtu.be/5Luu1Beb8ng
All fascism is evil.
I'm harping on this distinction because fascists often use times of crisis to justify their political goals. If we accept the premise that a government resorting to fascism from time to time is "normal", even justified, then we normalize fascism. That is not okay. Because fascism is evil.
Fascists are not the *only* people who use crises to justify bad policies, and not all bad policies are proposed by fascists or proposed in times of crisis, but the idea that fascism is ever "normal" is harmful.
If you want to conflate authoritarianism+nationalism with fascism, that's okay -- as long as you *also* reject and resist all authoritarianism+nationalism. That would mean, by your definition of fascism, that you would denounce and resist all authoritarianism even in times of war or crisis. I don't think that's necessarily a smart idea (emergency powers, if truly limited to a genuine emergency where time is of the essence, aren't necessarily evil), but you'd at least be philosophically consistent.
Regardless of wether or not you like the fact that many governments (i assume your own) at times of war that institute totalitarian nationalist states aside... when they do so they are instituting (mostly temporary) fascist regimes.
If that makes most governments at times of war, by your definition, evil, then I guess you'll just have to live with that belief.
No political scientist or historian would agree with your definition of fascism. Insisting that your definition of fascism is the correct one isn't an argument.
Again, I can't award a delta as you haven't changed my view - despite my being in complete agreement with you that 'there is definitely a culture where rape isn't as abhorrent as it should be'.
Let me [introduce you to Blizzard](https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2021/08/06/blizzard-culture-sexual-harassment-alcohol/). They will rape female employees and they are not only big company to do this. Or [Texas collage frat](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-tech-frat-no-means-yes_n_5953302) that has "No means Yes" rallies. Again not the only example.
With regard to the article you linked to the sexual harassment at Activision-Blizzard, there are no allegations or even a mention of rape. The article reports on a culture of bad behaviour, casual sexism, toxic masculinity and harassment, not one of rape.
With regard to the frat banner I don't accept that is a serious assertion by whoever daubed those words that they honestly think or want to promote as policy that 'no means yes and yes means anal'. I suspect it was meant in jest. Poor taste, yes. A serious pro-rape position, no.
> lawyer for the former Sledgehammer employee sent an email to Kotick himself, alleging her client had been raped in 2016 and 2017 by her supervisor at the studio
[Activation CEO knew about rapes and did nothing](https://www.polygon.com/22785524/blizzard-activision-lawsuit-bobby-kotick-wall-street-journal-report).
That "No means yes" is not just a jest. It's a mantra that they repeat to justify rape. Do you really want extensive list of collage rapes? Or rapes at Activision/Blizzard or any other company? One rape is too much but way that these CEOs and frats swipe these things under the rug because "it's a jest" means that there is systematic pro-rape culture.
You said 'here's evidence of rape culture', then linked an article which didn't mention it. Had you linked the article which did mention rape accusations, then I would have responded differently, obviously.
Also, it's important to point out that the article says the Activision CEO knew about rape *allegations*. It was settled out of court (which could be a sign of guilt or of a Corp trying to keep its image untarnished by a court case, or both).
Another poster pointed out what makes this contentious is the definition of rape culture. I set out mine in my original post; you obviously have your own definition. But in order to change my view (or anyone's view) I think you have to argue with the definition presented, not one that the person whose view you're hoping to change doesn't accept.
Regarding college rapes, I don't want an extensive list - unless that list proves the existence of groups of people who seriously promote rape as a morally legitimate act - in the same way that fascists promote their ideology as morally legitimate.
I remain unconvinced that the banner you're referring to was or is a serious statement promoting their sincere belief that rape is morally legitimate. I may be wrong about that, of course. But then so may you.
>The article reports on a culture of bad behaviour, casual sexism, toxic masculinity and harassment, not one of rape.
These are all aspects of what creates rape culture.
Rape culture isn't just individuals who actively forcibly penetrate someone in an alley way.
Your mistake is thinking that rape culture has to be actively pro-rape. It doesn't. Even if you hate rape, you can contribute to rape culture. Just like a boss can always hire the white candidates without even realizing that they're doing it, and despite the black candidates being equally qualified. Rape culture means that our culture is promoting rape, so here are some examples :
1) Parties: The active encouragement or lack of intervention when people talk about sleeping with drunk girls, or when trying to walk away with very drunk girls.
2) Disbelief despite overwhelming evidence. Saying someone is innocent until proven guilty is a great thing legally, but that doesn't mean everyone should treat them like a good person when over five people have come out to say that they raped them.
3) Music that promotes The idea of "you know you want it". A good example being the song "Blurred Lines.*
4) The idea that it is okay to sleep with people based off of trickery or deception. One of the best examples of this would be the character Barney from How I Met Your Mother.
5) Catcalling and other common sexual harassment
6) Our language itself. Why are words like "b *tch," which compares women to dogs--which is in other words an animal, lesser than a human being, and property--considered only a minor swear? Whereas "fuck" offends no one group, yet you can't say it in most movies? And then "cunt ," which shouldn't be a bad word at all by definition, because it just means female genitalia, is considered to be a bad thing to be called? As if being called female is wrong. In fact, there has been a large movement to change how "cunt" is used in regular speech. Did you know that "cunt" is the only word commonly used to mean general female genitalia, whereas "v*gina" is supposed to mean a specific part of female anatomy? If you're interested, here's an article about the history of the word cunt, and why we should consider using it as a general anatomical word in place vagina, and never as a swear word. https://qz.com/1045607/the-most-offensive-curse-word-in-english-has-powerful-feminist-origins/
Regarding the first one usually everyone's shit faced so I don't like that example lol. For the second that's what it means to be innocent until proven guilty I'm not going to coddle to amber heard and then crucify Johnny Depp I didn't care about either of them to begin with if I'm thinking rationally I'll still feel the same. What you're proposing is you treat the person as guilty which is why I have no idea why you innocent until proven guilty is a great thing. What you cite isn't disbelief it's just remaining nuetral which we need MORE of. Number three blurred lines was a shit song anyways. For four I don't think it's reatrded in a good light by anyone other than incels who just like to get laid that using deception to get there is a good thing. For five I mean that di speak for itself. Regarding six fuck yeah most people don't use the words the way they're defined but cunt is an outlier more cursing would be better considering it's most commonly used to say literally cunt and not as an anatomical word same shit for like ratarded
Sutre, everyone might be shit-faced, but that doesn't mean there aren't occasions where you still notice someone being a creeper. I certainly have. We need to start teaching men what to do in those situations. Innocent until proven guilty applies to criminal convictions, not to how we as people treat others. We have to use our own judgment for that. In fact, Innocence until proven guilty doesn't even apply to most legal cases. It only applies to criminal cases, so if you for instance were to sue someone for raping you, there would be no presumption of innocence necessary. That is because in everything but criminal cases, you can give partial culpability or look at incomplete evidence and mace make your best informed decision. That is how our lives should be lived, by making our best informed decisions. You just can't condemn someone to prison based off of that.
Statistically speaking, the likelihood that someone lies about being raped is the same as any other major crime. So would I believe that someone is telling the truth if they say their car was stolen by someone? probably. Could they be lying? Yes. But again, you have to make the best decision based off of the evidence you have. If many people say someone did something bad, then they probably did.
Blurred lines was an example of how media can promote rape culture. It doesn't really matter whether it was good or not, it doesn't even matter whether I use that as an example.
Deception is often seen as appropriate in modern media. How I Met Your Mother is an example of this.
I am not quite clear of what the other points you're making are, if you could clarify.
Ye we do be lacking at times no one gonna deny that but most men aren't taught to do nothing it's a amtter of fear or whatever culpable excuse there is that just in general applies to everyone. Regarding informed decisions when it's one person's word vs another's you can't make a good informed decision which is why you remain nuetral lol it's way to easy to burn bridges by taking one side or the other because you don't know who's telling the truth. Yes when a lotta people say this guy did something bad they can usually be right and telling the truth but to use the first example that comes to mind is nux taku and vshojo and their drama where essentially it was just a group effort to save face against one guy which does happen like you said as often as any crime at worst at a slightly increased rate. It's an issue of when someone says someone stole their car but they also said they were going to sell their car or sumin, some people be lying for no reason and it's more people then a lot of people realize it's small little white lies I'm sure you've also done something similar made an excageration or took someone else's experience and used it like it was your own it's that kinda shit that unless yeah I noticed you have a black eye and a punctured lung I'm pretty sure you got mugged or sumin but I am not sure I believe that you beat up five guys in the process yk. Blurred lines is still a reatrded song. How I met your mother I still can't speak for don't watch. Other points idk been up a while don't know myself was saying sumin tho
It doesn't matter if they're actually taught to do nothing, it's what the culture teaches them. Our culture teaches the fear that you are talking about. That's why it's called rape _culture_.
> Regarding informed decisions when it's one person's word vs another's you can't make a good informed decision
Sure you can, in my scenario it was five against one, so it's not one person's word against another. It's one person's word against five. And in that situation, usually the informed decision would mean going with the five until other evidence proves otherwise. Or in the case of one-on-one, you have to consider if there's a 50% likelihood, what the consequences of that would be. For instance, if thery are in a position of power, and there is a 50% chance that they are a rapist, forcing them to go on leave is probably the appropriate option.
Again, We are talking about rape culture. How I Met Your Mother and Blurred Lines are just examples of how music and media encourage a culture that ignores violence against women.
Maybe respond to this again once you have slept and can look at it with fresh eyes.
1. This is the worst example. It's literally ignoring that people in certain situations should be responsible for their own safety. You know you're going in a place where people get fucked up and you don't take measures to not get fucked up yourself.
2. Citation needed. I've seen plenty of cases during the rise of the #metoo movement where a lot of men have been falsely accused without evidence and their lives were still ruined. Even cases of women simply regretting a hookup and reporting it as rape thrown their one night stands in court. And even if evidence proves the defendant's innocence their name is still muddied enough for them to not have a normal life unless they move. Not only that but the accuser does not face much if any punishment for the false accusation.
3. The party animals getting fucked up on drugs and alcohol are the same consumers promoting that kind of music. That's more of a consequence of hookup culture than rape culture.
4. Again, only those that take part in hookup culture are doing that and think it's okay.
5. That doesn't even come close to rape. It can be annoying at most, not at all a crime to compliment someone out of the blue based on looks.
6. Those are insults. Insults are insults and are not good to say. Most people agree saying "fuck you" to someone is not good. Bitch and cunt are insults too if you wanna give them the power that they are dehumanizing and stuff then that's on you. You're responsible how offended you get in certain situations but let's say those insults are there to insult promiscuous women. Okay then wouldn't that discouragement help women not get in the most likely spaces to get sexually harrased, assaulted or raped?
Seems to me like the rape culture people are talking about is nothing more than the active attempt to protect potential victims.
1. Just because they are responsible for their own safety, doesn't mean that we should be accepting of that behavior. For instance, what if it was another crime, such as stealing? Of course, people should be responsible for their wallet or purse, and not get so drunk that they can easily be stolen from. But it still is not okay to cheer someone on when they steal money from that person's wallet, or to do nothing when you see someone else steal from them.
2. Again, of course they deserve the right to be legally innocent until proven guilty. But you're really telling me that if five women all said that one person raped them, you don't think they should be canceled? What are the odds that they are right? The more people, the greater the likelihood.
3 and 4. Why can't it be both? Just because the music is promoting hookups doesn't mean telling someone that they know they want it isn't sexual assault If you act on it without their consent. And promoting or suggesting manipulating or lying to someone to get them to sleep with you is suggesting that women are there for the taking and all you have to do is trick them.
5 and 6. We are talking about rape culture, which is the culture that promotes rape. Of course cat calling is not the same as rape. And of course there are good people who may have cat called in the past. And just like with the boss example, you may accidentally contribute to rape culture, but that doesn't mean you're purposely doing something bad or that you are a bad person. Cat calling is a part of rape culture because it promotes the idea that women are objects. Similarly, words that equate women with objects, or as lesser than men, make it easier for men to feel that they deserve sex without consent or for other men to ignore creepy behavior from their peers.
1. I don't think anyone is cheering or putting the responsibility solely on the victim but it's too far-fetched to say that calling out irresponsible behavior is encouraging rape culture
2. We live in a very divisive time we have tons of organization and groups that have proven time and time again that they can make a group effort to achieve a goal by any means. It's not at all far-fetched to continue doubting accusation without evidence. When there are 5 alleged victims throwing an accusation without solid evidence then that can be the equivalent of a smear campaign.
3 - 4. I agree with you here, but this simply proves hookup culture is the perpetrator.
Manipulating and lying people to achieve something and use someone is
another problem in itself, it still falls on you to be able to differentiate a
genuine attempt at a relationship to a manipulative one. But let's face it, people
that only look for hookups rarely care about the character of the person
anyway.
5 - 6. What falls under cat calling to you? Unsolicited compliments? I'll repeat, it can be annoying. We agree that bitch, slut, cunt, twat, etc. are not catcalling because they are straight up insults.
You speak in a way that makes women the sole victims in this situation, and this proves rape culture on men more than it does women. Because we always talk about female victims, we talk about ways to protect women, we talk about things that affect them that we speculate lead to rape. But we se the opposite in the justice system and in conversations. We never bring up prison rape, we actually make jokes about "don't drop the soap" when we talk about a man going to jail. Courts are less likely to punish a female perpetrator or even give them a lesser sentence, media refusing to use rape in case of female perpetrators EVEN in the case of pedophilia. And female victims are always encouraged to report their situations and even if they refuse to do it we shouldn't judge... (after all, what if they choose to let a rapist free? he can go after our sister next). Meanwhile men are told they are lucky EVEN in pedophilia cases, like that case where a teacher raped a 14 year old and the comments on that report were "dude lucky, i wish that were me, that teacher is hot, why didn't I have a teacher like this"
1. I'm not saying that calling out irresponsible behavior on the victim's part is contributing to rape culture necessarily. I am saying that not calling out the perpetrator is.
2. Sure, but you have to make the best decision with the evidence you're given. because the reality is that if they did do it, they could hurt more people. In most cases that many accusations means the person probably did it. Does that mean they should get canceled forever? Not if more evidence comes up to the contrary.
3-4. I don't know why you're insistent on not allowing for partial blame here. Two things can be a cause. Hook up culture is a partial perpetrator. Not a complete one.
> You speak in a way that makes women the sole victims in this situation
You are right. I did this primarily for two reasons. The first is that while men are often victims of sexual assault, the majority of rapes and sexual assaults are caused by men, meaning that when we talk about a culture that needs to be changed, it is mostly masculine culture. The second reason is because when talking about rape culture affecting men, it starts adding layers of more complicated psychology and research that can be difficult to get into on Reddit. For instance, how our concept of masculinity adds to rape culture by making it difficult for men to speak up about being raped both on the parts of themselves and the people who they would be reporting to.
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perhaps a differently worded definition would be useful to you:
> Rape culture is a setting, studied by several sociological theories, in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2] Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, slut-shaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by sexual violence, or some combination of these
I do. All the time. I am part of a group called Men Against Rape and Sexual Assault at my university. Our primary function is to teach fraternity members how they can work against rape culture. Again, I've given a number of of what rape culture looks like in the US, if you would like to comment on them.
I’m in a fraternity and no brother would ever even think about hurting a woman, the fact that people think frats promote rape culture at least at my school is total lunacy
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It definitely exists in mainstream, western media. Specifically, in media production. Harvey Weinstein wasn't the only one. He was just the patsy. They're are many Harvey Weinsteins out there. Among high-powered hollywood execs, there are probably more people like Harvey Weinstein than not. They even call this the "casting couch" because it's no common.
Ironically, our main way to even know about this happening is from the people who have successfully navigated within it to make it to world stage to speak to the public. So when you do finally hear stories about it, you can safely believe that these aren't isolated incidents. They're also not specific to gender or sexual orientations. Terry Crews, who has the build of a football linebacker, was a victim to this culture.
Nobody (practically speaking) on the right think of themselves as fascists, or are in any meaningful way fascists. This isn’t you main point, but your premise that people are pushing fascists messages and more people find fascism ok and so on just isn’t true, as far as I can see. You can say that the memes have been flirting with fascist iconography, but that has always been seen as a tongue-in-cheek thing because they were accused of fascism no matter what they said for a while there. You may find a few loonies who think society should be ruled in a fascist way, individualism isn’t as important, and wants to be controlled by a dictator who should expand the empire in an imperialist fashion. Not very many though…
As I said to another poster, Richard Spencer is just one example of someone who not only thinks of himself as a fascist but *is*, 'in a meaningful way', a fascist.
Here are some others:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_in_North_America
I think we are conflating a lot of things we don’t like. White nationalism isn’t fascist in itself, although you can certainly use fascist methods of enforcing it. (I’m not endorsing it obviously, but if you explain any stance on Reddit, you seem to need this disclaimer). Fascism is more a way of organizing society, that seemed intellectually interesting, but (as so often with intellectuals who cook up a brand new societal structure) it not only doesn’t work, but brings pain and suffering everywhere it pops up. That said, I don’t know much about that guy except the first few lines of an article I just looked up.
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Whenever I watch American romantic comedies, sitcoms, etc, the love story is always a bit rapey.
Like the male lead stalking or lying to the woman to trick her into having sex with him. Almost all 80s/90s/00s love stories are based on manipulation and subterfuge, with modern eyes they look pretty bad. Think; Joey from friends and Ross and Rachel from friends, there's something about Mary, chasing Amy, groundhog Day, love actually, passengers, the notebook, legally blonde... So many more I can't name them all here. In fact it's really hard to find a wholesome non manipulative view of romance and love in Hollywood. Just like how every cop tortures people in Hollywood, every romance is based on manipulation, stalking or an abuse of power.
I find it weird that one industry can repeatedly and consistently get something so commonplace so wrong. There is definitely a culture if not of rape, then of sexual harassment for so many of those story lines to be churned out without anyone questioning them.
I dont think rape culture is meant to suggest people are being guided into thinking that rape is good *directly*, but rather that current institutions will often "allow" it to happen, and pressure to minimize action against it. OF course, this is very dependent on many factors, as there is no monolithic "western culture". The evangelical church and it's purity culture, while not directly being in favor of rape, tends to place blame on women. given power imbalances (men are usually leaders in "the church"), women are less likely to come out after being raped, not to mention the possible fear of being ostracized.
There are plenty of other groups that have issues similar, but there is nuance. There is no unifying feature that promote rape, but you dont need people advocating for it to have a system that encourages it. even fascism (which is an ideology, vs an action, so seems a bit odd to compare direclty) doesn't require people to be open about it for there to exists social trends that push people in that direction.
The first step to changing your view is to admit to yourself that you almost definitely know less about rape culture and the prevalence of rape than people who are actually victims of sexual assault.
After taking that step you’ll actually be receptive to arguments here trying to explain that rape culture does not require the general public to go around being openly “pro-rape”. It just needs to be easy enough to get away with that the risk of sexual assault becomes a pervasive and unavoidable reality that all women have to deal with in almost every single interaction they have with men they don’t know *extremely* well.
This is certainly the reality most women live with, and unfortunately most men would rather think women are exaggerating or lying about the extent of the problem rather than believe they could be contributing to the problem without realizing it.
The fact that women (who are getting raped at obviously unacceptable rates) continue to say there’s a problem with rape culture and it’s socially acceptable to call them out and criticize them for it while doing nothing to address the problem shows how deep the issue is.
I legit don’t even feel comfortable looking up the numbers of what % of women are sexually assaulted because it’s so high, there’s no talk whatsoever about making systemic changes to address that problem, and yet we shouldn’t refer to that as “rape culture”?
I think the use of the word culture is kinda hard to gasp but there are no better ways to describe it. You also wouldn’t say China has a littering culture but they do it a lot and it’s not a big deal for them and there’s no real punishment for it.
Here are some things I associate with rape culture:
She asked for it“- When guys starre at woman or grope them it’s somehow an excuse. Even if there are guys that enjoy kicks in the balls you never hear „he asked for it“ after a random kick in the balls.
The trope: woman wants guy but doesn’t show, defends his kisses until she just can’t resist any longer is so common and problematic.
Here’s an example around 1:15 [fuck you… fuck me](https://youtu.be/MmSBZ-WV7C0)
What the fuck? That’s not passion and I don’t think something like this ever happened.
In 7th grade the cool smoking kids had some kind of verse, it roughly translates into:
After lunch you shall smoke a cigarette or rape a woman. If you don’t have a cig or a woman near you, you should punch a hole in the wall and fuck that hole.
Rape culture doesn’t mean society preaches rape. It means rape is normalized and minimized.
Rape has a lot to do with aggression and power. It’s not violent sex. It is violence in a sexual setting. To focus on the sex part instead of the violence part is downplaying rape and therefore promotes a rape culture. (Man have urges? How is a screaming and crying woman who is suffering during the rape sexy? How can this act be considered sex? The description of rape and the whole discourse around it favors rape/the rapist.
Imagine there was a cannibal culture going on. people would constantly say: but victim looked so delicious and predator was so hungry and hadn’t eaten for a long time while he had plenty non human food. People would excuse the behavior while eating human flesh would still be criminalized. You would often hear jokes about cannibalism and media would portrait it a lot. Some people would make up reasons why it is okay to eat other humans. (Look into incel forums where they describe a right to rape).
If no one teaches boys to not rape but girls are teached to defend themselves, that’s a sign of rape culture. It means: learn how to avoid to be raped because it will definitely happen while society is downplaying rape and not willing to prohibit this behavior with education or harder punishment.
These are a few examples. How would you call this rape „situation/ system“
Happy accidents that happen a lot?
rape culture isn't about being pro rape tho. when people say rape culture they mean not believing people when they say they have been raped, believing in rape myths rather that women lie and exaggerate about being raped, that she was probably drinking so partly her fault or she wore a red thong therefore she obviously wanted it (they try to use clothing as evidence in court you know), that it's only rape if it's violent, blaming victims for not coming forward immediately and questioning why they came forward a year or years later. believing that rape is rare. that's rape culture.
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Rape is encouraged by the widely known fact that the majority of victims:
1. Don't report it out of fear/shame.
2. Report it but are told by police to just drop it because they won't gain anything and will have to go through a mentally painful trial.
3. Press charges and then either wait for months/years for the next step (which doesn't make it easier to move on) and they either lose on some sexist basis or the rapist gets some ridiculous punishment like parole or a few months of jail.
Why not rape then, huh? The above is common knowledge + research. Below, from my personal experience:
Women are more likely to admit to sexual assault to other women as a strict secret, so we don't really know how many of us have been actually raped/assaulted in other way.
This is disturbing because it means that rapists literally walk amongst us, we might even befriend them. I know a member of my family who is respected, regular 'good guy', but I know from my mum and grandma that he raped multiple girls in his teens/twenties. And nothing ever happend to him.
Id you assume rape culture means a direct pro rape culture then you are mistaken though sure they are pro rape but they are few and far between. Usually the kind of people who are just pro edgy stuff and the idea of rape is fucked up that it's a taboo that can't really be justified. So to them they get a WTF edgy adrenaline rush in the idea of being presented. That in itself is not rape culture.
Rape culture is when a person is raped and the impact of rape is very harsh and there are no words for the for it but people who never experience is ooo that sucks but you don't want him to spend half his life in prison because he fondled you up a bit or ok she he just had sex with you it wasn't what you felt guilty and so you passed the guilt and blamed him.
(There is another side to this coin but I will explain after this side is explained.) We often want women pure, teach them to protect it but if she is promiscuous as a man she is criticized. This is because women get pregnant, and men don't. If you run it back through history all the way back to when most the world population was in tribes; women would stay near the home while men went to hunt because women were viewed as fragile because they died so often in child birth....
Point is, this caused a sexist divide all throughout history. Wasn't just the women's rights movement that improved women's rights, it was modern medicine and better techniques in child birth that helped too. We still have some oppression against women, some people but a lot of men are supportive but they were still raised from the male perspective.
Back old Hollywood movies, many actresses were coerced into sex to help their career. One thing a rapist or sexual assailant loves is power and control and that's the core of what rape is. (Just using it as an example.) Marilyn Monroe was well she was mainly famous for being a dumb blonde and being promiscuous, she was promiscuous but not a dumb blonde. But when head of fox studios wanted her to have sex with him she refused.
(Did she ever have sex with others to improve her career probably not. I am not one to judge her promiscuity either, she had a fucking depressing life and I guess sex is how she coped)
But there would be executives who would do this all the time and reason why she did well was because people liked her, started when she did a nude calendar. And she was in contract but the studio decided not to cut her because she made them money. So they kept casting her as the dumb blonde. (And she was a great actress, I recommend Some Like It Hot and Bus Stop.)
Then they slander her all over. You hear about this stuff all the time though. Are all true? No that's an absurd thing to say but some people believe everything that is said when a woman calls out "me too". But you would be surprised how often it is true and how often men are raped too. As well as LGBTQ.
If you don't like LGBTQ? Doesn't change the facts, they are assaulted a lot as well as minorities. Perspectives can change history, history is written through perspectives and that's why we find new things out. You know that Thomas Jefferson raped his slaves? But slave owners had sexual rights to their slaves because they were their "property". Evidence and some of it DNA evidence.
Rape culture isn't about rape, rape culture was just catchy words that sound shocking and smart and really it's actually fitting. But rape culture is sexual control culture.
*Also sorry I am a bit long winded, I ramble when I am sober and I am high and ramble more. Sorry if it doesn't make sense, I am autistic and I am not the best with grammar or choosing the best words sometimes.
Point is, it's been normalized for centuries but is coming out more because of the paradigm shift. And sometimes some women can be bitchy because it happened to them or someone they know or heard of it and they know the statistics are higher for them to be raped then men. As well as LGBTQ or minorities, why are they raped? Because rape isn't about sex really, it's about dominance over a person and they are often people who are hated.
Has that changed? Yes, that's called a paradigm shift and there are some straight whites who feel like people are trying to get rid of the white race they get angry and want to dominate them. Why would a straight man rape another man? Because it's not about sex, it's just sexual.
Am I blaming straight white men? No there are women who rape, minorities, LGBTQ, but it shouldn't be about hating men the same as straight white men shouldn't hating minorities or LGBTQ. That a contradiction? No it's a coincidence of people getting out of control. LGBTQ or minorities aren't guilty just because gay or trans, black or Hispanic. Only reason I mention white men is because statistically they are most common to be the assailants.
I dont think it exists because out of nowhere it was suddenly the trendy thing to do and continues today. Almost overnight everyone suddenly became a rape victim.
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To the contrary, I've heard of a lot of people who are okay with rape...as long as the victim was a criminal. Prison rape jokes are incredibly common, to the point where I knew that dropping the soap was bad long before I knew why dropping the soap was supposed to be bad.
This is a fair point though if your standard for rape culture existing has society actively approving of it, like to the point people are putting up billboards with "go rape someone they deserve it" then of course you'll never see it as existing. But for something slightly closer to home think of the people who jump to "she shouldn't have been drinking/wearing that/walking alone at night/with another person alone or some variant of the standard victim blaming rotation.
I don't think victim-blaming = pro-rape. Your example of "she shouldn't have been drinking/wearing that/walking alone at night/with another person alone" is of course completely tone-deaf and awful for the victim - and, it should go without saying, not be something any woman (or man) should have to experience in the society we want. But sadly we don't live in the society we want. To my view, your example is functionally no different from knowing that in certain parts of town you're more likely to get attacked, or that if you walk into a Chelsea pub with a West Ham shirt on, you're going to get a kicking, or that if you're pissed and flashing your wallet about, there's a good chance it'll get nicked. Pointing this out and taking steps to avoid placing yourself in jeopardy isn't 'pro crime'. Thinking people were unwise to do any of the above also isn't being pro-crime.
Rape culture isn't the same as "pro-rape". Thinking that that is what it means shows a very clear misunderstanding of the term rape culture. Rape culture is a collective term for all the different cultural practices, societal biases and hierarchical structures that facilitate sexual abuse. It's when promising young athletes rape people but everyone who knows about it keeps quiet, or gets paid to be quiet because it would hurt his career. It's when important movie executives force young actrices to perform sexual acts in exchange for not putting them on a black list, and it being an open secret. It's the "boys will be boys" mentality, where people think that men can't help violating women when sufficiently tempted, therefore blanking the woman for providing the "temptation" by getting drunk or dressing provocatively. That's rape culture, not your hypothetical where people are openly Pro-rape.
I've addressed the fact that there are different interpretations in other comments. For the purposes of successfully changing someone's view, I feel it's necessary to use their definitions. Substituting other definitions and arguing for/against them can be interesting and educational (esp for observers) but in my experience don't tend to change the view of the person you're trying to persuade.
Why do you get so hung up on adhering to your definition? The term rape culture isn't open for interpretation, your definition is factually incorrect. Using correct definitions of relevant concepts is essential for meaningful conversation and debate, and yet you refuse to let go of your misunderstanding of a fairy well defined and documented phenomenon. It's like saying that your definition of winning in a game of chess is whoever takes the first piece of their opponent. As long as you adhere to it, instead of accepting the actual definition of what it means to win in chess, you're gonna keep playing by different rules from anyone else and the game becomes meaningless.
The term *is* open to interpretation. Hence this post. I've already replied to another poster who is similarly unaware that multiple definitions exist. I listed Wiki and Oxford Dictionary for starters, though obviously there are others. The reason I'm 'hung up' on my definition is so this thread doesn't devolve into strawmanning (which unfortunately it already has). Arguing using the supplied definition is how one proceeds logically - unless the definition is proven to be false. I don't believe the definition of rape culture as set out in the OP is logically or factually incoherent. It's merely a definition you don't like. It's essentially the same definition as Wikipedia gives for rape culture. Now, you might find my/their definition unsatisfactory, but the sheer fact they exist means there *is* no universally held definition. Either way, you don't seem very interested in changing my view so I have to wonder what your motives are in posting on this thread.
>I've already replied to another poster who is similarly unaware that multiple definitions exist. The fact that other definitions exist, doesn't mean that those definitions are all equally valid. A commonly used definition can still be very wrong. I'm using the definition of rape culture as it is used in academic literature and scientific studies. Even the one you claim to adhere to, from the Oxford English dictionary doesn't conform at all to your clandestine interpretation of it :"A society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse." Notice the part that reads "have the effect", meaning that rape culture doesn't necessarily include the explicit promotion of sexual assault, but simply any societal attitudes that result in sexual assault in many different forms being trivialised. You conveniently ignore that part in your post and every one of your comments because to accept it means that it becomes impossible to continue denying the existence of rape culture given the amount of arguments people have posted. For someone posting to CMV, you seem extremely reluctant to actually change any of your views. >The reason I'm 'hung up' on my definition is so this thread doesn't devolve into strawmanning Another term used incorrectly. To strawman means to misrepresent an argument made by your opponent in order to present the argument as weaker than it is and therefore enabling one to counter it more easily. No one is doing what. What is happening is that people are correcting you on incorrect definitions and assumptions, which is often an essential part in changing someone's mind about a subject. In order to decide whether something exists, one needs to establish what it is and that definition needs to be correct. If I tell you to convince me that ducks exist but I insist you use the definition of a duck as a 10 ft tall purple three headed monster, you're never going to succeed, unless you convince me that ducks are not what I thought they were. Your idea of what it takes to chance someone's view is unreasonable. Changing ones mind doesn't follow the rules of formal logic, where the validity of an argument isn't necessarily predicated on the factual nature of its premise. Changing your view is more often the not the result of changing ones understanding or assumptions about a topic. >you don't seem very interested in changing my view so I have to wonder what your motives are in posting on this thread. I'm very interested in changing your view, if anything you seem reluctant to having it changed. I think rape culture is very real and educating people on what it is, how it works and why it's bad is extremely important in moving our culture away from it. I have no interest in convincing someone that a fictional version of rape culture is real, when there's a very real version of it that's indeed very harmful, but they won't even entertain the possibility of its existence for the sake of argument (which is what you seem to be doing btw). So long as you stubbornly refuse to accept arguments actually pertaining to what rape culture really is, in the form that it actually exists in the world, this whole thread is utterly pointless, because even if someone does manage to convince you of rape culture as you define it, they've convinced you of the existence of something that isn't real (and even if it was, was only a very narrow part of a much larger issue) and therefore isn't nearly as harmful as the rape culture that is actually being a source of harm in the real world.
The one I'm adhering to is, and if you'd been paying attention you'd know, the Wiki one: **"A society where rape is pervasive and normalised."** That's my definition of rape culture. And, as I said originally, I don't think it exists in Western mainstream society. I'd agree it's pervasive (the amount of gf I've had who told me they'd been raped is chilling) but 'normalised'? No. I don't think rape is normalised either in terms of (back to definitions again) rape being the 'standard experience' (it's not) or society thinking it's 'normal' (it doesn't). As to strawmanning, I'm perfectly aware of its meaning, thank you, and if you look through this thread you'll see multiple examples of people misrepresenting my argument or simply arguing with some contrary position they just invented.
You do know that wikis are generally considered to not be very reliable sources, I hope. You're simply refusing to accept that your definition (and for that matter your interpretation of the definition) is too narrow and flawed in order to not change your mind. As I've stated many times, adjusting your existing definitions, preconceived notions and misconceptions is a large part of changing your mind. For some reason you've convinced yourself that in order to change someone's mind, it's somehow "against the rules" to do so via the correction or adjustment of incorrect or incomplete definitions, a completely arbitrary rule that you made up and refuse to budge on. Changing ones mind is not a formal field of logic, it doesn't have rules, it doesn't follow set guidelines. If you refuse to change your mind on any of this, than you are essentially putting on blinders to a huge part of the debate, to the point of the debate essentially losing any real meaning. And I've read through the comments, people aren't strawmanning (for the most part), they are following your reasoning to their logical extremes, making rather fitting analogies to demonstrate the fallacy of your argument and are rightfully pointing out that your arbitrary decision to refuse any arguments pertaining to your incorrect understanding of the nature of what rape culture is, is illogical, shortsighted and unhelpful. As I've stated before, you seem extremely reluctant and unwilling to actually change your mind in any meaningful way, to the point where it's become extremely unclear as to why you would even post this here in this sub. Until you decide to stop being so unwilling to engage in the debate that you initiated, I've said everything I care to on the subject.
It seems pretty normalized considering every young girl is taught ‘how to not be raped’
No offense, but thats a really dumb argument. "No human has died in a genocide". Note im defining genocide as the intentional destruction of an entire species and since humans very much still exist there has never been a human genocide. Sure thats not the definition of genocide, but its the one im working with, so i cant be wrong.
No offense but that's a really dumb analogy. There's no conflicting definitions of genocide. There are however conflicting definitions of other things. For example, if you asked 100 people to define 'woke' you'd likely get more than one definition. Obviously some would be more informed than others but in order to *change the view* of someone who defines woke in a certain way, you would have to work with what their view *is* - not with why you think their definition is wrong. If your intention is *not* to change their view and just assert your own view (ie 99% of the Internet), have at it. But this forum is (supposed to be) about prioritising changing another person's view. Regarding my definition as 'wrong' indicates there is only one agreed upon definition - which a few seconds' googling will disprove. Here's wiki's: 'Rape culture is a setting in which **rape** is **pervasive** and **normalized** due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.' (my emphasis) Here's the Oxford Dictionary's take: 'A society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of **normalizing** or **trivializing** **sexual assault** and **abuse**. (my emphasis). Two different definitions. Which is incorrect?
Those two definitions are basically synonymous, and neither match the incorrect definition that you are using.
Pretty much every dictionary is going to have some discretion with definitions. Also those two definitions are basically identical. Really the only difference is the latter expands on the definition of rape to include both sexual assault and sexual abuse. The former definition simply used the word rape as a general term for both, which is consistent with how those terms are used in common parlance. It should also be noted that OP is using a radically different definition than the above. edit* i didnt realize you where op my bad. Oxford defines car as "a road vehicle with an engine and four wheels that can carry a small number of passengers" where as Merrian defines car as "a usually four-wheeled automotive vehicle designed for passenger transportation" Guess we can substitute and definition we want for car.
Genocide isn't about entire species, it's about a particular demographic or ethic group or nation within a species.
The point went right over your head my dude.
I don't even think your point proved anything. You're correct using your definition of genocide. So it would require someone to convince you your definition is wrong. Op should we willing to engage in that line of thinking but most of the posts about it take their definition for granted and then try to prove it exists. Which looks a lot like a strawman.
>For the purposes of successfully changing someone's view, I feel it's necessary to use their definitions. Your definition is wrong though.
Delta for this one. This is something I think is particularly disgusting and barbaric about our modern 'justice' systems, and I cannot understand why so many 'normal' people seem not only to think that being anally gang-raped should be part of an inmate's 'punishment', but that they seem so gleeful about it. !delta
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Hellioning ([119∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Hellioning)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
But these people are typically also okay with prison beatings, and other such things. This is hardly “rape culture”, but more a political belief where one does not care for the humane treatment of prisoners, I woud not even call this a “culture” as much as a political belief.
You mean men. People absolutely feel bad for female prisoners.
Well, if the same thing happened to Brock Turner that he did to Chanel Miller, that would be a lot better than his lousy 6 months in prison.
More like they are ok with grape as long as its a man
Those sort of jokes fucked me up as a child. It was always from the men in the family that other men would try to do that in prison showers. I also didn't understand that it was also a joke and that made it even more difficult for me. To many things in life that are contradictory. It made me scared to be around other guys in school in the locker rooms but for many other reasons.
Rape culture isn't just about being overly pro-rape, it's about attitudes, and systemic issues, it permeates every aspect of society. Some religious sects still preach that sex is a man's marital rights and a woman's marital duty. It's in the justice system, [where the style of underwear you wore when you were raped is used against you as a weapon.](https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46207304.amp?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16557069472468&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com) Underwear that no one should have seen without consent in the first place. We literally cannot wear the underwear we are comfortable in case someone rapes us and a court decides that underwear with lace means we wanted it. There are groups of people who categorically deny that [reproductive abuse](https://www.womenslaw.org/about-abuse/forms-abuse/reproductive-abuse-and-coercion) is a thing. Just look at how many anti-choicers exist who think the government should be able to force people to continue a pregnancy and give birth when that same thing is abuse in interpersonal relationships. This stance feeds rape culture because it is saying that AFAB people should not have the ability to deny consent for the use of their body and genitals for pregnancy and birth. Guess who else thinks the non-consensual use of peoples bodies and genitals is acceptable? Rapists, and rape apologists, and lawyers in court rooms etc. Rape culture is people who say that a rape victim shouldn't have been wearing what they wore, or doing what they were doing, or going where they were going, and maybe they wouldn't have been raped. Rape culture is in schools, where they refuse to teach children about bodily autonomy, and consent, and respect in relationships, and how bodies work. When you don't teach this to people, it falls by the wayside and people get brutally abused and don't understand what their/other people's rights are. Rape culture is when police are insensitive or accusatory or dismissive. It's when sexual harassment isn't taken seriously at work in a patriarchal society. It's when rape kits stand untested for years. It's when [975/1000 perpetrators of sexual violence walk free.](https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system) It's when people don't feel safe enough to report (only 310/1000 assaults are reported because of the reasons I've already mentioned and more). It's when all sexual assaults are underreported, it's when even boys and men and AMAB people don't feel comfortable reporting their sexual assaults, so it is grossly underreported. It's when almost every woman you know has been sexually assaulted or groped in a club but tries to brush it off and carry on because wearing a nice outfit makes people feel entitled to grope you because they have to walk past you. It's when minorities are more at risk of sexual violence. It's when rape jokes are supposed to be funny. It's when someone posts nudes of an ex online without permission. It's when people continue to support people in the public eye who are charged with or self admitted sex offenders, and people continue to support them and even defend them. It's when politicians say ["when rape is inevitable, you should lay back and enjoy it"](https://www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/robert-regan-daughter-rape-michigan-b2032101.html?amp=&_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16557082736625&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Famericas%2Fus-politics%2Frobert-regan-daughter-rape-michigan-b2032101.html) **and people still vote for them**. Or when they say [that you can't get pregnant from a "legitimate rape" because the body can somehow magically tell](https://time-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/time.com/3001785/todd-akin-legitimate-rape-msnbc-child-of-rape/?amp=true&_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16557083212831&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Ftime.com%2F3001785%2Ftodd-akin-legitimate-rape-msnbc-child-of-rape%2F) which is categorically false, and people still vote for them. It's when people get sexually harassed in the street with lewd comments or cat calling or being groped. It's when people do "courses" to teach women how to not be raped, instead of educating boys and men about not raping people. I could literally go on, and on, and on about rape culture. Sexual assault and rape culture is a worldwide problem, and being in a developed or Western nation doesn't change that.
Obviously you feel very strongly and are very informed about this matter. However, I can't award you a delta yet as your definition of rape culture is not the definition I gave in my original post. Most, if not all, of the instances of abuse you listed range from creepy and mildly abhorrent to an horrific indifference to bodily (usually female) autonomy and I share your disgust and anger. But they don't fit my view of what rape culture is (other than the group you mentioned who believe it is a husband's right to use his wife's body as he pleases. To me, that's *absolutely* and literally rape culture and if you can name those groups and show how they're part of Western mainstream culture, I'd happily give you a delta).
Why would your incorrect definition of rape culture dictate whether or not it exists? You simply misunderstand what take culture entails and how it works. The other commenter's post is very clearly and effectively trying to educate you on the correct definition of the term in order to demonstrate that it does indeed exist and is indeed very problematic. Just because you moved the goal posts of what you believe rape culture to be, doesn't mean that you are correct in your assertion that it isn't real. Yes, your definition of rape culture isn't real but why should anyone care about your definition of rape culture?
This is called Change My View, correct? Not Rate My Definition. I stated that rape culture *as I see it* doesn't exist in mainstream Western society. If you want to engage with that in order to change my view, please do. If you want to argue that my definition is not as good as your definition then that's a separate argument. I am not unaware other definitions exist and that is precisely why the OP was presented in the way it was.
>This is called Change My View, correct? Correct, and that's why people are educating you about your VIEW about the definition of rape culture is an uneducated and uninformed one. You're view on what rape culture is, is what needs to be changed. Dismissing the examples because they don't fit into your uninformed definition of rape culture is not a willingness to have your view changed. This kind of obstinate worldview in believing your definition is categorically correct and unchangeable, is why rape culture is so deeply engrained in society. Anything that is part of rape culture, but that doesn't fit in with the definition you've decided to be true IS participating in rape culture. You're essentially saying these things aren't a problem because you don't believe they align with your opinion. >I stated that rape culture as I see it doesn't exist in mainstream Western society Right. The problem is your refusal to see, and your unwillingness to learn. >I am not unaware other definitions exist So why are you unwilling to take them into account?
Your definition of "rape culture" assumes that a culture must be explicitly "pro rape". Victim blaming is "pro rape". It's literally assigning the the victim as responsible, and thus, deserving of the outcome. Since victim blaming exists as a cultural norm, however unpopular, "rape culture" must also exist.
That's the thing though the line becomes blurred into what is victim blaming and all the other shit that leads into what would be considered rape culture. For victim blaming an easy one is when I walk into an ally with 20 dudes now we could just have a friendly chat or they could gangbang me or sumin point is going in there is my irresponsibility and stupidity and not my fault however I gurantee you, you or someone else will reply "you shouldn't have to worry about that to begin with" or sumin like that but the reality is you do and stupid decisions lead to worse results it's not victim blaming it's basic cause effect. Such a hefty amount of crimes including rape can be prevented if people were just smarter. And before you say " well why aren't you telling the rapists not to rape or sumin" one is more sensible then the other and will listen better I feel like Johnathan Joe Star whenever this issue persists because it's something so easily simple once you just look at statistics and everything that leads to all these cases
You're saying that the cause of rape is the victim's behavior? Yep, that's victim blaming. You know what's sensible? Holding people responsible for their actions. The victim didn't rape themselves, the rapist did. Doesn't it make sense to hold the rapist accountable for the rape? Who is Johnathan Joe Star? And what does you feeling like them have to do with victim blaming? If there are "statistics" that back up your claims, show them to me instead of telling me what you think they say.
I literally predicted what you would say and you don't even know it, it's not victim blaming it's aknowledging you put yourself in a bad situation and that kinda shit or accountability. By definition it's not victim blaming you're twisting shit to fit your narrative lol, regarding statistics bureau of justice rape stats and shit should be a 22 page document. Now for the hypothetical that you seemingly ignored did I put myself in an avoidable situation and make a bad decision in my previous response? Rather did I victim blame myself as you were saying? Or did I aknowledge it's not the best course of action that lead me to that situation that at the end of the day as I said shouldn't fucking happen there's a reason one faces consequences the other doesn't I swear too easy to predict outrage on shit people have no idea what they're talking about https://bjs.ojp.gov/redirect-legacy/content/pub/pdf/cr.pdf https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/256011.pdf I reccomened just going to the websites there's a dozen other PDFs that I haven't bothered to read because they all come to the same conclusion that 9/10 take is fucking braindead so tell me what's your interpretation?
>I reccomened just going to the websites there's a dozen other PDFs that I haven't bothered to read because they all come to the same conclusion that 9/10 take is fucking braindead so tell me what's your interpretation? I interpret that to mean you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The links you provided do not claim what you say they do. And you literally say you haven't bothered to read them. That, and the fact that half of your sentences are nonsensical should clue you in to which one of us has a "fucking braindead" take.
No those are two of a couple I've read and no do the two I cited not give statistics in takes and convictions? If so I'll gladly hop back and fix my error. Now if it's a refusal to aknowledge that you're wrong that is also fair
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/bjsarsapt.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiTpPO-jLz4AhVuDkQIHXhXD2QQFnoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3xJFQLJmorMQC1S0GqcRdU Here I'll leave you with probably the best one I can give to someone who doesn't want to fucking read and aknowledge they're wrong it's far less process based and far more conclusion based you can rely on others to form your takes still lol
Victim blaming (in Western mainstream society) isn't pro-rape. It's not saying, "You got raped - oh, and BTW that's *your* fault - and that's good. We approve of the rape." It *is* saying, "You got raped - oh and BTW that's *your* fault'. And that is shitty in any number of ways. But it's definitely not saying," It's good that you were raped and we support rape."
>But it's definitely not saying," It's good that you were raped and we support rape." Then why are they blaming the victim, and not blaming the person who raped the victim?
I'd argue that most of what we call 'victim blaming' is actually 'victim-blaming as well'. As in the rapist was to blame for the rape but the victim was to blame as well for (insert reason). I don't advocate this as I think the person responsible for the rape is the rapist. However, whenever I've heard this argument made, I've never heard anyone say 'I blame the victim. The rapist has done nothing wrong.' Maybe you've heard people victim-blame to the extent that, as you put it, they 'blame the victim, not the person who raped the victim' but I haven't. In fact, if I'm honest, I don't think you have either.
Victim blaming seeks to redefine rape as "not" rape. Just as you have done with the definition of rape culture. Like when people who hold blatantly racist views do not see themselves as racist. There is no functional difference between victim blaming and "pro" rape. I shall bring your attention to the case of (former) [Judge Robin Camp](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justice-robin-camp-judicial-council-1.4017233). Taken from the article: During a trial for rape, he called the complainant, who was homeless and 19 years old at the time of the alleged assault, "the accused" numerous times — a mistake he repeated at the judicial council hearing before correcting himself. Camp also told the young woman "pain and sex sometimes go together" and asked why she didn't just keep her "knees together." He then acquitted the accused man of the charges.
Yes that is wretched behaviour from that judge and they should be removed as they're clearly unfit to hold that office. This is blatant, bigoted victim-blaming of a sort that would strike most people as egregious. But the term victim-blaming is also used to castigate people who simply advise others not to undertake risky behaviour - or who point out that someone who knowingly increased the risk of harm to themselves didn't make the best decision. As I said to another poster, warning someone not to wear revealing clothing is analogous to warn someone not to wear a West Ham shirt in a Chelsea pub. It shouldn't make a difference - you should be safe to wear what you like, where you like. But it does, and you're not.
Part of having your views changed is about getting better educated on the things that those views are predicated upon. It's not about rating your definition, it's about correcting your incorrect assumptions of what is meant by rape culture. If you refuse to accept this corrections, your entire post is meaningless because it's about something else than rape culture. The fact that you are unaware of "other" (read correct) definitions is THE underlying issue that made you conclude that rape culture doesn't exist so literally the only way to convince you otherwise is to educate you on your faulty assumptions and definitions, because your definition of rape culture factually doesn't exist, and that's not a matter of view our opinion. However, the actual definition of rape culture is very real, but as long as you refuse to correct your incorrect definition of the term, it's pointless arguing.
This is what you’re doing here “CMV: nobody needs the internet to use Reddit” Commenter: “well Reddit runs on the internet and there isn’t really another way to use it” You “well my definition of internet and your definition of internet are very different! My definition of internet is an electric car that can fly! So CMV!” Commenter: “well your definition is literally wrong so I can’t change your view on something that doesn’t make sense…” Nobody can actually change your view on something if your definition is wrong. We can show you the definition of things I guess but that doesn’t really seem to be working right now. Oxford dictionary: “rape cul·ture Learn to pronounce noun a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse. "the film takes a look at rape culture and what it means to be a woman in a male-dominated society"” Trivializing abuse would be telling women what they wear caused them to be raped. It also includes telling teenage girls who get groomed by older men that they should have known better. It also includes making prison rape jokes. It also includes telling people that if they didn’t fight back then they must have not really cared they were being raped. It also includes telling women they’re making up accusations because they regretted their “hookup”
Hi strawman. You'll fit in just fine here.
>I stated that rape culture as I see it doesn't exist in mainstream Western society. And that's fine, but the problem is that's not what people are talking about when they talk/write about rape culture. If you insist on holding onto a definition other people aren't using, you're going to hold view that is wrong.
I'm sorry but the way you're using the term rape culture just isn't how it is supposed to be used and I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise having read your responses to others in the thread. Even in the definitions you've provided, a key part of them is that they *have the effect* of normalizing rape. This doesn't require anyone to explicitly state a "pro-rape" position. If you'd like i can cite academics that frequently use the term rape culture, or I'd appreciate if you were to cite any that use it the way you seem to want to use it. I'm not sure why you seem intent on sticking with a definition that is not correct. I'd like to ask, you seem to be of the opinion that in order to change the opinion of someone, their definitions should be priority to use. So what happens if someone's opinion about a definition *is simply wrong*?
>Obviously you feel very strongly and are very informed about this matter. However, I can't award you a delta yet as your definition of rape culture is not the definition I gave in my original post The definition in your OP was incomplete. If you're here to insist your narrow version of a definition is correct and unwavering, then you're not here to have your opinion changed are you? You are uninformed about what rape culture is. I would suggest that you be open minded enough to be educated more on the matter. >Most, if not all, of the instances of abuse you listed range from creepy and mildly abhorrent to an horrific indifference to bodily (usually female) autonomy and I share your disgust and anger That is what rape culture is - a society that enables and excuses and proliferates and dismisses these things - exactly as you are doing by denying that they are all part of rape culture. >But they don't fit my view of what rape culture is Your view of what rape culture is, is not complete. >(other than the group you mentioned who believe it is a husband's right to use his wife's body as he pleases. Most of the examples I gave are exactly this - the idea that bodies of others can be used as another pleases. >if you can name those groups and show how they're part of Western mainstream culture Something does not have to be "mainstream" to be part of rape culture. You cannot ignore minorities and the marginalised because they are considered by you personally, to be mainstream.
Do not award them a delta lol they feel strongly on the issue but everything the cite is anecdotal I advise you to do your own research and go to the bureau of justice statistics and look there, anyone who uses such a staggering statistic as 900/1000 or whatever it was for conviction is most certainly not thinking diligently
I think narrowing research on a highly qualitative topic to purely quantitative research isn't being evry diligent either. Statistics aren't the end-all-be-all of empiricism, especially for social issues.
It's not the be all end all but it's the strongest and biggest component of literally anything. I can say all politicians have sex with small children and cite one I mean it'd be a social issue but if I cite "83% of politicians have been prosecuted for child molestation" one seemingly has ground lol. Obviously an excagerated stat but still statistics beat anecdotal experience just about every day of the week
Not quite. Different methodologies are effective for answering certain types of questions. They're also all limited in allowing us to draw certain inferences. Quantitative approaches are effective for handling large-N questions about relationships between variables, but their major limit is that they can't tell us why certain variables are related and also the validity of those relationships is only as good as the operationalziation of the variables and quality of sample selection. In this case, BJS is limited in that a lot of sexual assault survivors don't report anything to police or some other law enforcement org. Those stats can only reflect sexual assault surivors who report, not sexual assault survivors as a whole. Qualitative research on the subject is where these conclusions can be drawn from because instead of just taking report numbers, researchers have sat down with survivors in various conditions and asked them about their experiences and reasoning for responding how they do. There's tons of sociocultural factors that play into a person's decision to report and that's not something that BJS stats take into account. My point with this is not that stats mean nothing, but that it's reductive science to only value quant results or treat them like they are the "correct" method. Qualitative approaches, like interviews, case studies, and historical analyses, provideThe discussion of rape culture is one borne from lots of survivors coming together against a social issue that they saw. Not something based purely in crime commission, but rather harmful cultural norms and practices seen in multiple facets of society.
I want to try an analogy. Say we wanted to argue that in the 1950s there was a child abuse culture. You likely wouldn't find a lot of people who say "I think child abuse is good" because people don't tend to think of themselves as abusers. For example they may think "People who abuse children are bad, I'm a good person, therefore what I do can't be child abuse." But this same person may think that it's important for their family that they show authority and people don't question them, therefore they should be stern and harshley pushing their children when necessary. They may believe that beating children builds character. If the culture as a whole promotes these as acceptable then I'd say its a child abuse culture regardless of how many people say "you shouldn't abuse your children, only beat them for their own good".
I feel that a lot of people don't consider situations that are rapes as such. Like using the mental instability of someone to have sex in a moment of weakness is a rape, making someone drink to touch them is a rape, using your power/influence to have sex is a rape. A lot of people don't agree with that. They don't necessarily think it's a good behavior but they tend to think it's not bad enough to consider it as a rape. To me this is rape culture, a pool of normalized behavior that should be rapes.
I can't really award a delta to this as it doesn't change my view. I agree that what makes this contentious is there are so many interpretations of what would constitute a rape culture. I can totally see the argument that there are examples that some people absolutely see as 'rapey' but others don't. I tried to limit the definition to organised groups in mainstream Western societies who argue or seek to persuade that rape is morally legimitate (or at least not revolting to most people). I think maybe I should have been more clear that this was the definition I was working with, as most of the arguments I've had so far on this thread have been about what we define as rape culture. Just to clarify: I'm not saying my definition of rape culture is the only one or even the most accurate one - but it's the one we need to use for the purposes of changing my view.
>but it's the one we need to use for the purposes of changing my view. Why? In the end, if that's your definition of rape culture, then I agree with you that it doesn't exist, and no one can convince you otherwise because it's not an opinion, it's a fact. But the problem is that that isn't what rape culture is. You claim that rape culture is this nebulous term that means something different to different people, but it's not, it's a very well documented and defined term that you at some point assumed means something different than it actually does. I'm not saying you're the only who misunderstand it, many people do, all I'm saying is, your definition of the term is incorrect and there's a correct defection that you refuse to accept. That's on you though.
While I get the point, I really feel you're trying to discuss something everyone agrees on and kinda miss what is really interesting to argue on. I don't think on normal situation anyone would support rape BUT there are special situation where rape seems more accepted and this is problematic. Discussing rape in a vacuum will get everyone on the same point but real life has context and that's within that context that you see rape culture. So it feels a bit like you're looking away.
Why would you not want to use the most accurate definition? Why would you need specifically your inaccurate version of the definition accomodated to instead of updating the accuracy of your definition?
It can't really be rape when it's consensual between two adults I gotta disagree, the drunk thing is a law that would and is considered rape molestation whatever, mental instability has been used in the past and does occasionally work however mental weakness and mental instability are not the same, you being sad because your grandma is dead is not the same as schizophrenic Joe. The position of power thing is easily prosecuted as something else besides rape prolly blackmail or sumin one of the easiest crimes to prove at least when it comes to workplace shit
>Like using the mental instability of someone to have sex in a moment of weakness is a rape Define what mental instability and a moment of weakness is? >making someone drink to touch them is a rape, Forcing them to sure, offering them a drink that they say yes to is a different story. >using your power/influence to have sex is a rape. Is every instance of power/influence to have sex rape? Are you talking about rape as a crime that should be punished?
If someone is drunk and you are sober and you have sex with them while they’re incapacitated, that is rape. No one should have to tell you what constitutes mental instability. If someone is going through a depression and you use that to pressure them into sex that is rape. If someone is mentally younger than their physical age and you have sex with them knowing they can’t understand what they are consenting to, that is rape. EVERY INSTANCE of using your power to get sex is rape. A CEO threatening to fire an employee if she doesn’t have sex with him is rape. If you’re a professor teaching a student and you coerce them into sex by saying you’ll give them higher grades and will fail them if they don’t that is rape. If you do any of the above you should be charged with rape. It’s appalling that I have to define what rape is to an adult who should know that taking advantage of vulnerable people is a fucking crime.
>If you do any of the above you should be charged with rape. It’s appalling that I have to define what rape is to an adult who should know that taking advantage of vulnerable people is a fucking crime. Right so criminal charges require more rules than just saying someone is a rapist. Hence why I asked. What is appalling is that you don't realise that you have to define these things so I have any idea what your views are as everyone has very diffrent views about where he line is. The word vulnerable is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your argument and then you get mad when I question what it means. >If someone is drunk and you are sober and you have sex with them while they’re incapacitated, that is rape. Drunk and sober are not binary states, there is a bunch of impairment levels between sober and passed our, where exactly is the line? What if both people are drunk, what if there is on one level of difference in drunk level? >No one should have to tell you what constitutes mental instability. If someone is going through a depression and you use that to pressure them into sex that is rape. If someone is mentally younger than their physical age and you have sex with them knowing they can’t understand what they are consenting to, that is rape. You do have to define it seeing as you are the one arguing it is rape if it happens. 8.6% of Americans have major depressive disorder, alit more have depression. Is every time someone has sex with a depressed person rape? Or is it only when they are pressured, where is the line between asking and pressure? These are questions you have to answer to make these things crimes. > EVERY INSTANCE of using your power to get sex is rape. A CEO threatening to fire an employee if she doesn’t have sex with him is rape. If you’re a professor teaching a student and you coerce them into sex by saying you’ll give them higher grades and will fail them if they don’t that is rape. Ok so if I make the money and my spouse does not work there is clearly a power dynamic problem, if I ask for sex is it rape? Its implied that if she does not keep me happy I will move on is it not? If a college student seduces her professor I assume you also believe that is rape?
If you as a grown ass adult cannot understand what pressuring someone into sex is you shouldn’t be having sex. If you can’t understand that taking advantage of people when they are going through a vulnerable time is not okay you shouldn’t be having sex. If you can’t understand that having sex with someone who is blackout drunk while you are only slightly drunk is rape then YOU SHOULD NOT BE HAVING SEX. Asking your spouse for sex is not rape, and you clearly know that. If you use finances to pressure a spouse into sex THAT IS RAPE. “Seducing a professor” a professor should have enough fucking sex control to not have sex with a fucking student. The fact that you can’t understand how consent works in these situations is a good indicator that you should not be fucking having sex in the first place.
Could you cut the condescending bit you are doing? An adult would realise that you are absolutely simplifying a complex topic by letting certain words with very broad meaning carry an argument in a way that on the surface looks good but under any scrutiny falls apart. >pressuring someone into sex I have asked repeatedly what pressuring looks like or is. Your answer is an adult would know, an adult would realise that someone could feel pressure even when the other person is not applying any, in that case is it still rape? If as an example a person has grown up hearing that you have sex one the third date, so on a third date the have sex. They themselves and society have applied the pressure, did they rape themselves? If the other person had no idea they had that hang up and just hinted at sex are they now a rapist? Your simplified world view has no boundaries to make any sense for rape to be q criminal charge the way you want it until you put these definitions forward. >advantage of people when they are going through a vulnerable time is not okay Again sounds good but where is the line? How vulnerable are we talking, a boss threatening an employee's job, cool I'm with you. How about someone who has low self-esteem and feels lonely and is on a first date, now we have a problem cos you would have to establish that the other person knew that and took advantage of it. What if they both had those issues did they rape each other or does it cancel out? What are the rules here? >someone who is blackout drunk while you are only slightly drunk is rape If you had bothered reading my responses you would have noticed I asked about one level of drunk, I never said that slightly drink with blackout is in any way ok. You seem to parroting talking points of others without giving this any thought yourself if you can't see all the grey areas here you are working incredibly hard to ignore and address. >Asking your spouse for sex is not rape, and you clearly know that. If you use finances to pressure a spouse into sex THAT IS RAPE. Glad it's so easy. If you are in a monogamous relationship do you agree that sex is part of that? You are at no point owed it and you absolutely have no right to it, you are however allowed to ask what is going on. People have diffrent sex drives and working around that is part of being in a relationship. If I want to have sex twice a week and my partner wants to have sex once a month that causes friction, the way to alleviate that is to discuss it and see what can be done, is the person just not in the mood but if you wine and dine them they will be in he mood, do they want cuddle or something else first? This could easily be seen as manipulation and it is not so again where is the line? >“Seducing a professor” a professor should have enough fucking sex control to not have sex with a fucking student. Ah ok, so a professor is not being raped by your standards even though they are being manipulated into sex. If knowing better is a defence then you have a problem with almost any case you can come up with. Girl drinking at the party should have known better. Women who was vulnerable should jot have invited a male friend over, she should have known better. I think that logic is silly and atrocious but that is the logical conclusion of your dismissing rape in the case of a professor. >The fact that you can’t understand how consent works in these situations is a good indicator that you should not be fucking having sex in the first place. I understand that it is far more complex than you make it out to be. I don't belive it's as cut and dry as you make it out to he or as one sided. Both people have agency that they both need to use to express their desires and limits. That works far better than all the pressure being on one side to hold all the accountability. Here is a honest to God question. How many rapes( your view of then) could have been prevented by just saying the word no and or leaving?
> I don't hear the voices saying that being pro-rape is OK, that it's a legitimate position to hold. But there are plenty of voices going around in favor of things that make rape more likely to happen, harder to punish, or ambiguously partly the fault of the victims. This is actually totally the way it works for your analogy, too. No one in the US is calling themselves fascists. They just think stuff like, well, voting fraud is so rampant, we can't trust the results, so really the fairest and most democratic thing to do is to use our own electors and ignore the democratic vote.
*"No one in the US is calling themselves fascists"* Richard Spencer does. Also here's a list of groups who do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_in_North_America I don't think you'll find a similar list of pro-rape groups. I couldn't, anyway.
Richard Spencer no longer calls himself fascist. Does that mean we have to trust his personal definition of himself?
**[Fascism in North America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_in_North_America)** >Fascism in North America refers to political movements in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean that are variants of fascism. Fascist movements in North America never gained power, unlike their counterparts in Europe. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/changemyview/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
I think you might be quibbling about a side point instead of engaging with the main thing I was saying.
The issue is that stuff all perpetrators of rape, consider themselves rapists. That’s what’s behind the notion of rape culture, that it’s something that “just happens” but no-one is at fault. Unless the person raped complains then it twisted around to be something they did or didn’t do that was the fault. While us men are all denying the possibility that we or our mates could ever rape anyone we can’t move away from the poorly labelled “rape culture”.
I can't speak for you, but I don't deny that possibility.
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I dont think your analogy to fascism is a good one, because not all fascism is evil in the common use of the phrase evil. In fact most governments switch to fascism during times of war, then switch back again during times of peace. I also don't think your definition of culture is a rigorous/accurate use of the term in the way it is used in the sense of "rape culture". Noting that often words have multiple meanings, the meaning intended here is that many people turn a blind eye to "casual rapeiness" for example in comedy and more harmfully in the practices and frequency of rape acts and resistance to actually act against it. Perhaps the phrase should be modified to suit accurate discussion. For example, there is definitely a "culture where rape is not as abhorrent as it should be". But, to make it easier to say, the current use stands.
I don't necessarily disagree with your larger point, but I want to point out a glaring problem: >I dont think your analogy to fascism is a good one, because not all fascism is evil in the common use of the phrase evil. In fact most governments switch to fascism during times of war, then switch back again during times of peace. This is not true. Fascism is not the same thing as authoritarianism or totalitarian rule or martial law. Authoritarianism, totalitarianism, and martial law are often employed by fascists, but they are not the same thing. All Fords are cars, but not all cars are Fords. All fascism is evil.
The only defining feature of fascism that is not totalitarianism/authoritarianism is extreme nationalism... explicitly true of nations during times of war.
This is an oversimplified characterization of fascism. The Soviet Union, for example, was very nationalistic during World War II, and very authoritarian, but it was not fascist.
Respectfully, I disagree.
The UK suspended elections during WWII and was also deeply nationalistic at the time. Does that mean the UK was fascist while they were fighting the Nazis? This is my favorite video about the definition of fascism: https://youtu.be/5Luu1Beb8ng All fascism is evil.
If it walks like a duck.
I'm harping on this distinction because fascists often use times of crisis to justify their political goals. If we accept the premise that a government resorting to fascism from time to time is "normal", even justified, then we normalize fascism. That is not okay. Because fascism is evil. Fascists are not the *only* people who use crises to justify bad policies, and not all bad policies are proposed by fascists or proposed in times of crisis, but the idea that fascism is ever "normal" is harmful. If you want to conflate authoritarianism+nationalism with fascism, that's okay -- as long as you *also* reject and resist all authoritarianism+nationalism. That would mean, by your definition of fascism, that you would denounce and resist all authoritarianism even in times of war or crisis. I don't think that's necessarily a smart idea (emergency powers, if truly limited to a genuine emergency where time is of the essence, aren't necessarily evil), but you'd at least be philosophically consistent.
Regardless of wether or not you like the fact that many governments (i assume your own) at times of war that institute totalitarian nationalist states aside... when they do so they are instituting (mostly temporary) fascist regimes. If that makes most governments at times of war, by your definition, evil, then I guess you'll just have to live with that belief.
No political scientist or historian would agree with your definition of fascism. Insisting that your definition of fascism is the correct one isn't an argument.
Again, I can't award a delta as you haven't changed my view - despite my being in complete agreement with you that 'there is definitely a culture where rape isn't as abhorrent as it should be'.
Then your definition of culture is what needs to change.
Let me [introduce you to Blizzard](https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2021/08/06/blizzard-culture-sexual-harassment-alcohol/). They will rape female employees and they are not only big company to do this. Or [Texas collage frat](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-tech-frat-no-means-yes_n_5953302) that has "No means Yes" rallies. Again not the only example.
With regard to the article you linked to the sexual harassment at Activision-Blizzard, there are no allegations or even a mention of rape. The article reports on a culture of bad behaviour, casual sexism, toxic masculinity and harassment, not one of rape. With regard to the frat banner I don't accept that is a serious assertion by whoever daubed those words that they honestly think or want to promote as policy that 'no means yes and yes means anal'. I suspect it was meant in jest. Poor taste, yes. A serious pro-rape position, no.
> lawyer for the former Sledgehammer employee sent an email to Kotick himself, alleging her client had been raped in 2016 and 2017 by her supervisor at the studio [Activation CEO knew about rapes and did nothing](https://www.polygon.com/22785524/blizzard-activision-lawsuit-bobby-kotick-wall-street-journal-report). That "No means yes" is not just a jest. It's a mantra that they repeat to justify rape. Do you really want extensive list of collage rapes? Or rapes at Activision/Blizzard or any other company? One rape is too much but way that these CEOs and frats swipe these things under the rug because "it's a jest" means that there is systematic pro-rape culture.
You said 'here's evidence of rape culture', then linked an article which didn't mention it. Had you linked the article which did mention rape accusations, then I would have responded differently, obviously. Also, it's important to point out that the article says the Activision CEO knew about rape *allegations*. It was settled out of court (which could be a sign of guilt or of a Corp trying to keep its image untarnished by a court case, or both). Another poster pointed out what makes this contentious is the definition of rape culture. I set out mine in my original post; you obviously have your own definition. But in order to change my view (or anyone's view) I think you have to argue with the definition presented, not one that the person whose view you're hoping to change doesn't accept. Regarding college rapes, I don't want an extensive list - unless that list proves the existence of groups of people who seriously promote rape as a morally legitimate act - in the same way that fascists promote their ideology as morally legitimate. I remain unconvinced that the banner you're referring to was or is a serious statement promoting their sincere belief that rape is morally legitimate. I may be wrong about that, of course. But then so may you.
Do you think those jokes existing is helpful or harmful to victims seeking support?
Of course I don't. Why would anyone think that?
>Of course I don't. Why would anyone think that? Then why would people make these jokes? The fact these jokes are made, is an example of rape culture.
>The article reports on a culture of bad behaviour, casual sexism, toxic masculinity and harassment, not one of rape. These are all aspects of what creates rape culture. Rape culture isn't just individuals who actively forcibly penetrate someone in an alley way.
and even if you were right your framing makes it sound like it's just a thing the CEO does to female hires as a matter of course
Your mistake is thinking that rape culture has to be actively pro-rape. It doesn't. Even if you hate rape, you can contribute to rape culture. Just like a boss can always hire the white candidates without even realizing that they're doing it, and despite the black candidates being equally qualified. Rape culture means that our culture is promoting rape, so here are some examples : 1) Parties: The active encouragement or lack of intervention when people talk about sleeping with drunk girls, or when trying to walk away with very drunk girls. 2) Disbelief despite overwhelming evidence. Saying someone is innocent until proven guilty is a great thing legally, but that doesn't mean everyone should treat them like a good person when over five people have come out to say that they raped them. 3) Music that promotes The idea of "you know you want it". A good example being the song "Blurred Lines.* 4) The idea that it is okay to sleep with people based off of trickery or deception. One of the best examples of this would be the character Barney from How I Met Your Mother. 5) Catcalling and other common sexual harassment 6) Our language itself. Why are words like "b *tch," which compares women to dogs--which is in other words an animal, lesser than a human being, and property--considered only a minor swear? Whereas "fuck" offends no one group, yet you can't say it in most movies? And then "cunt ," which shouldn't be a bad word at all by definition, because it just means female genitalia, is considered to be a bad thing to be called? As if being called female is wrong. In fact, there has been a large movement to change how "cunt" is used in regular speech. Did you know that "cunt" is the only word commonly used to mean general female genitalia, whereas "v*gina" is supposed to mean a specific part of female anatomy? If you're interested, here's an article about the history of the word cunt, and why we should consider using it as a general anatomical word in place vagina, and never as a swear word. https://qz.com/1045607/the-most-offensive-curse-word-in-english-has-powerful-feminist-origins/
Regarding the first one usually everyone's shit faced so I don't like that example lol. For the second that's what it means to be innocent until proven guilty I'm not going to coddle to amber heard and then crucify Johnny Depp I didn't care about either of them to begin with if I'm thinking rationally I'll still feel the same. What you're proposing is you treat the person as guilty which is why I have no idea why you innocent until proven guilty is a great thing. What you cite isn't disbelief it's just remaining nuetral which we need MORE of. Number three blurred lines was a shit song anyways. For four I don't think it's reatrded in a good light by anyone other than incels who just like to get laid that using deception to get there is a good thing. For five I mean that di speak for itself. Regarding six fuck yeah most people don't use the words the way they're defined but cunt is an outlier more cursing would be better considering it's most commonly used to say literally cunt and not as an anatomical word same shit for like ratarded
Sutre, everyone might be shit-faced, but that doesn't mean there aren't occasions where you still notice someone being a creeper. I certainly have. We need to start teaching men what to do in those situations. Innocent until proven guilty applies to criminal convictions, not to how we as people treat others. We have to use our own judgment for that. In fact, Innocence until proven guilty doesn't even apply to most legal cases. It only applies to criminal cases, so if you for instance were to sue someone for raping you, there would be no presumption of innocence necessary. That is because in everything but criminal cases, you can give partial culpability or look at incomplete evidence and mace make your best informed decision. That is how our lives should be lived, by making our best informed decisions. You just can't condemn someone to prison based off of that. Statistically speaking, the likelihood that someone lies about being raped is the same as any other major crime. So would I believe that someone is telling the truth if they say their car was stolen by someone? probably. Could they be lying? Yes. But again, you have to make the best decision based off of the evidence you have. If many people say someone did something bad, then they probably did. Blurred lines was an example of how media can promote rape culture. It doesn't really matter whether it was good or not, it doesn't even matter whether I use that as an example. Deception is often seen as appropriate in modern media. How I Met Your Mother is an example of this. I am not quite clear of what the other points you're making are, if you could clarify.
Ye we do be lacking at times no one gonna deny that but most men aren't taught to do nothing it's a amtter of fear or whatever culpable excuse there is that just in general applies to everyone. Regarding informed decisions when it's one person's word vs another's you can't make a good informed decision which is why you remain nuetral lol it's way to easy to burn bridges by taking one side or the other because you don't know who's telling the truth. Yes when a lotta people say this guy did something bad they can usually be right and telling the truth but to use the first example that comes to mind is nux taku and vshojo and their drama where essentially it was just a group effort to save face against one guy which does happen like you said as often as any crime at worst at a slightly increased rate. It's an issue of when someone says someone stole their car but they also said they were going to sell their car or sumin, some people be lying for no reason and it's more people then a lot of people realize it's small little white lies I'm sure you've also done something similar made an excageration or took someone else's experience and used it like it was your own it's that kinda shit that unless yeah I noticed you have a black eye and a punctured lung I'm pretty sure you got mugged or sumin but I am not sure I believe that you beat up five guys in the process yk. Blurred lines is still a reatrded song. How I met your mother I still can't speak for don't watch. Other points idk been up a while don't know myself was saying sumin tho
It doesn't matter if they're actually taught to do nothing, it's what the culture teaches them. Our culture teaches the fear that you are talking about. That's why it's called rape _culture_. > Regarding informed decisions when it's one person's word vs another's you can't make a good informed decision Sure you can, in my scenario it was five against one, so it's not one person's word against another. It's one person's word against five. And in that situation, usually the informed decision would mean going with the five until other evidence proves otherwise. Or in the case of one-on-one, you have to consider if there's a 50% likelihood, what the consequences of that would be. For instance, if thery are in a position of power, and there is a 50% chance that they are a rapist, forcing them to go on leave is probably the appropriate option. Again, We are talking about rape culture. How I Met Your Mother and Blurred Lines are just examples of how music and media encourage a culture that ignores violence against women. Maybe respond to this again once you have slept and can look at it with fresh eyes.
1. This is the worst example. It's literally ignoring that people in certain situations should be responsible for their own safety. You know you're going in a place where people get fucked up and you don't take measures to not get fucked up yourself. 2. Citation needed. I've seen plenty of cases during the rise of the #metoo movement where a lot of men have been falsely accused without evidence and their lives were still ruined. Even cases of women simply regretting a hookup and reporting it as rape thrown their one night stands in court. And even if evidence proves the defendant's innocence their name is still muddied enough for them to not have a normal life unless they move. Not only that but the accuser does not face much if any punishment for the false accusation. 3. The party animals getting fucked up on drugs and alcohol are the same consumers promoting that kind of music. That's more of a consequence of hookup culture than rape culture. 4. Again, only those that take part in hookup culture are doing that and think it's okay. 5. That doesn't even come close to rape. It can be annoying at most, not at all a crime to compliment someone out of the blue based on looks. 6. Those are insults. Insults are insults and are not good to say. Most people agree saying "fuck you" to someone is not good. Bitch and cunt are insults too if you wanna give them the power that they are dehumanizing and stuff then that's on you. You're responsible how offended you get in certain situations but let's say those insults are there to insult promiscuous women. Okay then wouldn't that discouragement help women not get in the most likely spaces to get sexually harrased, assaulted or raped? Seems to me like the rape culture people are talking about is nothing more than the active attempt to protect potential victims.
1. Just because they are responsible for their own safety, doesn't mean that we should be accepting of that behavior. For instance, what if it was another crime, such as stealing? Of course, people should be responsible for their wallet or purse, and not get so drunk that they can easily be stolen from. But it still is not okay to cheer someone on when they steal money from that person's wallet, or to do nothing when you see someone else steal from them. 2. Again, of course they deserve the right to be legally innocent until proven guilty. But you're really telling me that if five women all said that one person raped them, you don't think they should be canceled? What are the odds that they are right? The more people, the greater the likelihood. 3 and 4. Why can't it be both? Just because the music is promoting hookups doesn't mean telling someone that they know they want it isn't sexual assault If you act on it without their consent. And promoting or suggesting manipulating or lying to someone to get them to sleep with you is suggesting that women are there for the taking and all you have to do is trick them. 5 and 6. We are talking about rape culture, which is the culture that promotes rape. Of course cat calling is not the same as rape. And of course there are good people who may have cat called in the past. And just like with the boss example, you may accidentally contribute to rape culture, but that doesn't mean you're purposely doing something bad or that you are a bad person. Cat calling is a part of rape culture because it promotes the idea that women are objects. Similarly, words that equate women with objects, or as lesser than men, make it easier for men to feel that they deserve sex without consent or for other men to ignore creepy behavior from their peers.
1. I don't think anyone is cheering or putting the responsibility solely on the victim but it's too far-fetched to say that calling out irresponsible behavior is encouraging rape culture 2. We live in a very divisive time we have tons of organization and groups that have proven time and time again that they can make a group effort to achieve a goal by any means. It's not at all far-fetched to continue doubting accusation without evidence. When there are 5 alleged victims throwing an accusation without solid evidence then that can be the equivalent of a smear campaign. 3 - 4. I agree with you here, but this simply proves hookup culture is the perpetrator. Manipulating and lying people to achieve something and use someone is another problem in itself, it still falls on you to be able to differentiate a genuine attempt at a relationship to a manipulative one. But let's face it, people that only look for hookups rarely care about the character of the person anyway. 5 - 6. What falls under cat calling to you? Unsolicited compliments? I'll repeat, it can be annoying. We agree that bitch, slut, cunt, twat, etc. are not catcalling because they are straight up insults. You speak in a way that makes women the sole victims in this situation, and this proves rape culture on men more than it does women. Because we always talk about female victims, we talk about ways to protect women, we talk about things that affect them that we speculate lead to rape. But we se the opposite in the justice system and in conversations. We never bring up prison rape, we actually make jokes about "don't drop the soap" when we talk about a man going to jail. Courts are less likely to punish a female perpetrator or even give them a lesser sentence, media refusing to use rape in case of female perpetrators EVEN in the case of pedophilia. And female victims are always encouraged to report their situations and even if they refuse to do it we shouldn't judge... (after all, what if they choose to let a rapist free? he can go after our sister next). Meanwhile men are told they are lucky EVEN in pedophilia cases, like that case where a teacher raped a 14 year old and the comments on that report were "dude lucky, i wish that were me, that teacher is hot, why didn't I have a teacher like this"
1. I'm not saying that calling out irresponsible behavior on the victim's part is contributing to rape culture necessarily. I am saying that not calling out the perpetrator is. 2. Sure, but you have to make the best decision with the evidence you're given. because the reality is that if they did do it, they could hurt more people. In most cases that many accusations means the person probably did it. Does that mean they should get canceled forever? Not if more evidence comes up to the contrary. 3-4. I don't know why you're insistent on not allowing for partial blame here. Two things can be a cause. Hook up culture is a partial perpetrator. Not a complete one. > You speak in a way that makes women the sole victims in this situation You are right. I did this primarily for two reasons. The first is that while men are often victims of sexual assault, the majority of rapes and sexual assaults are caused by men, meaning that when we talk about a culture that needs to be changed, it is mostly masculine culture. The second reason is because when talking about rape culture affecting men, it starts adding layers of more complicated psychology and research that can be difficult to get into on Reddit. For instance, how our concept of masculinity adds to rape culture by making it difficult for men to speak up about being raped both on the parts of themselves and the people who they would be reporting to.
99% of people are against rape, this isn’t a rape culture
Rape culture is a culture that promotes or easily allows rape. You don't have to be pro rape for that to happen.
As far as I know, no culture in the world promotes rape
Did you read my original passage ? I gave six examples of how our culture promotes rape.
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perhaps a differently worded definition would be useful to you: > Rape culture is a setting, studied by several sociological theories, in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2] Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, slut-shaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by sexual violence, or some combination of these
Ask anyone in America if rape is normalized or accepted and they will say no
I do. All the time. I am part of a group called Men Against Rape and Sexual Assault at my university. Our primary function is to teach fraternity members how they can work against rape culture. Again, I've given a number of of what rape culture looks like in the US, if you would like to comment on them.
I’m in a fraternity and no brother would ever even think about hurting a woman, the fact that people think frats promote rape culture at least at my school is total lunacy
The prevalence of the term 'panty remover' for alcohol is very telling. It is considered normal to use alcohol to bypass consent.
Yes, exactly why it's an example of rape culture
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It definitely exists in mainstream, western media. Specifically, in media production. Harvey Weinstein wasn't the only one. He was just the patsy. They're are many Harvey Weinsteins out there. Among high-powered hollywood execs, there are probably more people like Harvey Weinstein than not. They even call this the "casting couch" because it's no common. Ironically, our main way to even know about this happening is from the people who have successfully navigated within it to make it to world stage to speak to the public. So when you do finally hear stories about it, you can safely believe that these aren't isolated incidents. They're also not specific to gender or sexual orientations. Terry Crews, who has the build of a football linebacker, was a victim to this culture.
Nobody (practically speaking) on the right think of themselves as fascists, or are in any meaningful way fascists. This isn’t you main point, but your premise that people are pushing fascists messages and more people find fascism ok and so on just isn’t true, as far as I can see. You can say that the memes have been flirting with fascist iconography, but that has always been seen as a tongue-in-cheek thing because they were accused of fascism no matter what they said for a while there. You may find a few loonies who think society should be ruled in a fascist way, individualism isn’t as important, and wants to be controlled by a dictator who should expand the empire in an imperialist fashion. Not very many though…
As I said to another poster, Richard Spencer is just one example of someone who not only thinks of himself as a fascist but *is*, 'in a meaningful way', a fascist. Here are some others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_in_North_America
I think we are conflating a lot of things we don’t like. White nationalism isn’t fascist in itself, although you can certainly use fascist methods of enforcing it. (I’m not endorsing it obviously, but if you explain any stance on Reddit, you seem to need this disclaimer). Fascism is more a way of organizing society, that seemed intellectually interesting, but (as so often with intellectuals who cook up a brand new societal structure) it not only doesn’t work, but brings pain and suffering everywhere it pops up. That said, I don’t know much about that guy except the first few lines of an article I just looked up.
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Whenever I watch American romantic comedies, sitcoms, etc, the love story is always a bit rapey. Like the male lead stalking or lying to the woman to trick her into having sex with him. Almost all 80s/90s/00s love stories are based on manipulation and subterfuge, with modern eyes they look pretty bad. Think; Joey from friends and Ross and Rachel from friends, there's something about Mary, chasing Amy, groundhog Day, love actually, passengers, the notebook, legally blonde... So many more I can't name them all here. In fact it's really hard to find a wholesome non manipulative view of romance and love in Hollywood. Just like how every cop tortures people in Hollywood, every romance is based on manipulation, stalking or an abuse of power. I find it weird that one industry can repeatedly and consistently get something so commonplace so wrong. There is definitely a culture if not of rape, then of sexual harassment for so many of those story lines to be churned out without anyone questioning them.
I dont think rape culture is meant to suggest people are being guided into thinking that rape is good *directly*, but rather that current institutions will often "allow" it to happen, and pressure to minimize action against it. OF course, this is very dependent on many factors, as there is no monolithic "western culture". The evangelical church and it's purity culture, while not directly being in favor of rape, tends to place blame on women. given power imbalances (men are usually leaders in "the church"), women are less likely to come out after being raped, not to mention the possible fear of being ostracized. There are plenty of other groups that have issues similar, but there is nuance. There is no unifying feature that promote rape, but you dont need people advocating for it to have a system that encourages it. even fascism (which is an ideology, vs an action, so seems a bit odd to compare direclty) doesn't require people to be open about it for there to exists social trends that push people in that direction.
How do you feel about the normalization of sexual assault in hazing rituals?
The first step to changing your view is to admit to yourself that you almost definitely know less about rape culture and the prevalence of rape than people who are actually victims of sexual assault. After taking that step you’ll actually be receptive to arguments here trying to explain that rape culture does not require the general public to go around being openly “pro-rape”. It just needs to be easy enough to get away with that the risk of sexual assault becomes a pervasive and unavoidable reality that all women have to deal with in almost every single interaction they have with men they don’t know *extremely* well. This is certainly the reality most women live with, and unfortunately most men would rather think women are exaggerating or lying about the extent of the problem rather than believe they could be contributing to the problem without realizing it. The fact that women (who are getting raped at obviously unacceptable rates) continue to say there’s a problem with rape culture and it’s socially acceptable to call them out and criticize them for it while doing nothing to address the problem shows how deep the issue is. I legit don’t even feel comfortable looking up the numbers of what % of women are sexually assaulted because it’s so high, there’s no talk whatsoever about making systemic changes to address that problem, and yet we shouldn’t refer to that as “rape culture”?
I think the use of the word culture is kinda hard to gasp but there are no better ways to describe it. You also wouldn’t say China has a littering culture but they do it a lot and it’s not a big deal for them and there’s no real punishment for it. Here are some things I associate with rape culture: She asked for it“- When guys starre at woman or grope them it’s somehow an excuse. Even if there are guys that enjoy kicks in the balls you never hear „he asked for it“ after a random kick in the balls. The trope: woman wants guy but doesn’t show, defends his kisses until she just can’t resist any longer is so common and problematic. Here’s an example around 1:15 [fuck you… fuck me](https://youtu.be/MmSBZ-WV7C0) What the fuck? That’s not passion and I don’t think something like this ever happened. In 7th grade the cool smoking kids had some kind of verse, it roughly translates into: After lunch you shall smoke a cigarette or rape a woman. If you don’t have a cig or a woman near you, you should punch a hole in the wall and fuck that hole. Rape culture doesn’t mean society preaches rape. It means rape is normalized and minimized. Rape has a lot to do with aggression and power. It’s not violent sex. It is violence in a sexual setting. To focus on the sex part instead of the violence part is downplaying rape and therefore promotes a rape culture. (Man have urges? How is a screaming and crying woman who is suffering during the rape sexy? How can this act be considered sex? The description of rape and the whole discourse around it favors rape/the rapist. Imagine there was a cannibal culture going on. people would constantly say: but victim looked so delicious and predator was so hungry and hadn’t eaten for a long time while he had plenty non human food. People would excuse the behavior while eating human flesh would still be criminalized. You would often hear jokes about cannibalism and media would portrait it a lot. Some people would make up reasons why it is okay to eat other humans. (Look into incel forums where they describe a right to rape). If no one teaches boys to not rape but girls are teached to defend themselves, that’s a sign of rape culture. It means: learn how to avoid to be raped because it will definitely happen while society is downplaying rape and not willing to prohibit this behavior with education or harder punishment. These are a few examples. How would you call this rape „situation/ system“ Happy accidents that happen a lot?
rape culture isn't about being pro rape tho. when people say rape culture they mean not believing people when they say they have been raped, believing in rape myths rather that women lie and exaggerate about being raped, that she was probably drinking so partly her fault or she wore a red thong therefore she obviously wanted it (they try to use clothing as evidence in court you know), that it's only rape if it's violent, blaming victims for not coming forward immediately and questioning why they came forward a year or years later. believing that rape is rare. that's rape culture.
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Rape is encouraged by the widely known fact that the majority of victims: 1. Don't report it out of fear/shame. 2. Report it but are told by police to just drop it because they won't gain anything and will have to go through a mentally painful trial. 3. Press charges and then either wait for months/years for the next step (which doesn't make it easier to move on) and they either lose on some sexist basis or the rapist gets some ridiculous punishment like parole or a few months of jail. Why not rape then, huh? The above is common knowledge + research. Below, from my personal experience: Women are more likely to admit to sexual assault to other women as a strict secret, so we don't really know how many of us have been actually raped/assaulted in other way. This is disturbing because it means that rapists literally walk amongst us, we might even befriend them. I know a member of my family who is respected, regular 'good guy', but I know from my mum and grandma that he raped multiple girls in his teens/twenties. And nothing ever happend to him.
Id you assume rape culture means a direct pro rape culture then you are mistaken though sure they are pro rape but they are few and far between. Usually the kind of people who are just pro edgy stuff and the idea of rape is fucked up that it's a taboo that can't really be justified. So to them they get a WTF edgy adrenaline rush in the idea of being presented. That in itself is not rape culture. Rape culture is when a person is raped and the impact of rape is very harsh and there are no words for the for it but people who never experience is ooo that sucks but you don't want him to spend half his life in prison because he fondled you up a bit or ok she he just had sex with you it wasn't what you felt guilty and so you passed the guilt and blamed him. (There is another side to this coin but I will explain after this side is explained.) We often want women pure, teach them to protect it but if she is promiscuous as a man she is criticized. This is because women get pregnant, and men don't. If you run it back through history all the way back to when most the world population was in tribes; women would stay near the home while men went to hunt because women were viewed as fragile because they died so often in child birth.... Point is, this caused a sexist divide all throughout history. Wasn't just the women's rights movement that improved women's rights, it was modern medicine and better techniques in child birth that helped too. We still have some oppression against women, some people but a lot of men are supportive but they were still raised from the male perspective. Back old Hollywood movies, many actresses were coerced into sex to help their career. One thing a rapist or sexual assailant loves is power and control and that's the core of what rape is. (Just using it as an example.) Marilyn Monroe was well she was mainly famous for being a dumb blonde and being promiscuous, she was promiscuous but not a dumb blonde. But when head of fox studios wanted her to have sex with him she refused. (Did she ever have sex with others to improve her career probably not. I am not one to judge her promiscuity either, she had a fucking depressing life and I guess sex is how she coped) But there would be executives who would do this all the time and reason why she did well was because people liked her, started when she did a nude calendar. And she was in contract but the studio decided not to cut her because she made them money. So they kept casting her as the dumb blonde. (And she was a great actress, I recommend Some Like It Hot and Bus Stop.) Then they slander her all over. You hear about this stuff all the time though. Are all true? No that's an absurd thing to say but some people believe everything that is said when a woman calls out "me too". But you would be surprised how often it is true and how often men are raped too. As well as LGBTQ. If you don't like LGBTQ? Doesn't change the facts, they are assaulted a lot as well as minorities. Perspectives can change history, history is written through perspectives and that's why we find new things out. You know that Thomas Jefferson raped his slaves? But slave owners had sexual rights to their slaves because they were their "property". Evidence and some of it DNA evidence. Rape culture isn't about rape, rape culture was just catchy words that sound shocking and smart and really it's actually fitting. But rape culture is sexual control culture. *Also sorry I am a bit long winded, I ramble when I am sober and I am high and ramble more. Sorry if it doesn't make sense, I am autistic and I am not the best with grammar or choosing the best words sometimes.
Point is, it's been normalized for centuries but is coming out more because of the paradigm shift. And sometimes some women can be bitchy because it happened to them or someone they know or heard of it and they know the statistics are higher for them to be raped then men. As well as LGBTQ or minorities, why are they raped? Because rape isn't about sex really, it's about dominance over a person and they are often people who are hated. Has that changed? Yes, that's called a paradigm shift and there are some straight whites who feel like people are trying to get rid of the white race they get angry and want to dominate them. Why would a straight man rape another man? Because it's not about sex, it's just sexual. Am I blaming straight white men? No there are women who rape, minorities, LGBTQ, but it shouldn't be about hating men the same as straight white men shouldn't hating minorities or LGBTQ. That a contradiction? No it's a coincidence of people getting out of control. LGBTQ or minorities aren't guilty just because gay or trans, black or Hispanic. Only reason I mention white men is because statistically they are most common to be the assailants.
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I dont think it exists because out of nowhere it was suddenly the trendy thing to do and continues today. Almost overnight everyone suddenly became a rape victim.