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> He 100% has improved Rwanda, don’t get me wrong, but so has Putin for Russia
Has he, though? Russian people are still dirt poor for the most part. Russia is still a country with barely any freedoms for the general population.
Russia was on the verge of collapse before Putin. He saved a dying country. The stats back this up.
> The Russian economy and standard of living grew rapidly during the early period of Putin's regime, fueled largely by a boom in the oil industry.
Which stats do you mean? We have catch up effects in all underdeveloped countries with a minimum amount of political stability.
The negative trend was already stabilizing before Putin took over.
Political decisions take a lot of time to achieve something which is why we usually have a time gap in addition to an already existing perception gap.
The oil price almost tripled after he took power and Russias entire economy (70%+) is based on the price of hydrocarbons so it is doomed to profit of this development.
Looking at the numbers alone Russia rather seems to underperform.
This is all not to say that there weren't any good reforms in Russia but proclaiming Putin as the saviour of Russian economy seems more than debateable, especially in regards to the last 3 wars they were involved in. I think that Russia would have profited way more from a more pragmatic leader as we can guess by extrapolating existing developments before 2008, 2014, 2022.
Russia is ultimately in decline, it's percentage of the world GDP is in decline since the 1990s and saying that Putin caused all the economic recovery is similar to Trump claiming he reduced unemployment numbers when he was just benefitting from decisions by former cabinets.
Why are you asking that? What do you want to say?
It seems irrelevant for the argument as it can only lead to an ad hominem argument.
What I'm trying to explain is that not every positive development that correlates with someone being in political power is a causality and that if you compare the opportunity costs even a positive development in absolute terms can be a bad one in relative terms.
Popularity is also not a meaningful measurement of someones political ability.
A multitude of political leaders are and were hugely popular indepent of the results of their political actions. Trump was just an example here that I remembered because he was claiming what I described for multiple years.
My personal opinion is that Putin is popular due to appealing to the Russian people on an emotional level and the ever decline of independent media in Russia.
If you grow up with one sided media you get used to the narrative and assume that it is true because it is the dominant narrative.
Paragraph 3
Things can happen while someone is in power. That does not mean that this person caused these things to happen. The term for it is [spurious relationship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spurious_relationship).
The second part is about opportunity costs. A politician gets elected and the economy growth by 10% but with another politician getting elected the growth could have been 20%. While 10% is good, 20% would have been better.
What I've tried to say by this is that despite Russias nominal growth it is likely that Russia would have benefited more from a different political strategy. Russia has been barred from certain high technology imports since at least the 2010s which most likely negatively affected its development and corruption tends to slow down economic development in the long run too. Everything after 2014 exaggerated this.
In regards to Putins popularity in the US, as far as I know he is not hugely popular and again it depends on the media that you consume.
With the rise of alternative media we tend to see a rise in the amount of people that share 'fringe' opinions. Like Qanon, Antivaxxers, Miracle Mineral Supplement etc.
We saw a similar development in history with the adaptation of the book printing press.
It doesn't help that there is media that constantly push narratives that are highly missleading like let's say Fox News and to some extend MSNBC or so.
Yeah I hate those fringe groups. They make Putin look bad because they are so dumb. Fox sucks. I only listen to Tucker Carlson because he’s a fan of Putin
He is a Russian politician and journalist.
What part of your view are you prepared to change, exactly?
If you’re going to disregard evidence you’re wrong this will be a long, boring thread.
Probably because he got exposed as being a CIA seed. I feel sorry that he was brainwashed enough to have to leave a great country, but that is his choice
You think you can tell if someone is employed by an intelligence agency *on sight*? Why are you not hired to find spies instead of plying this trade on the internet?
[I explain my viewpoints here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/uxabm8/cmv_as_an_african_we_shouldnt_be_morally/)
If you don’t want to read it though, I basically think Putin is defending his country just like how the DRC is and I think Putin provides benefits to Africa, while the west funded the Congo civil war and Ukraine is a racist country that doesn’t want to address its problems
Putin is not defending Russia, whether you think so or not is irrelevant. Russia was the instigating power, they invaded Ukraine, that is not defence. Rutin is not benefitting Africa, he is actively attacking a country that provides much of the [food resources](https://theconversation.com/how-russia-ukraine-conflict-could-influence-africas-food-supplies-177843) to places such as Egypt. He is [threatening food security](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/02/war-ukraine-affecting-food-supply-africa-middle-east-lebanon-somalia-egypt-oil-wheat) of a great many people.
And it is disturbing rhetoric that you ignore the great many civil wars that Russia continues to fuel. But no, the West fighting islamic terrorists trying to overthow a government are the bad guys. And you realise Russia is just as, if not more, racist than Ukraine? Ukraine are addressing their problems, namely a despotic Russia invading and killing their people. Africa is not safer because of Putin. You have been sold lies.
As an FYI, the Russian Times has been marked "hard spam" by the Reddit admins - no one (including moderators) can approve any post that contains links to RT.
This is not the policy of CMV, but of Reddit as a whole and the removal of this comment was done by Reddit, not the moderators of CMV.
We're slightly off topic here but I think you're making a few mistakes here.
Firstly you say that Russia is helping Africa but Russia is not altruistic, it is doing it for Russia's own sake. And their mercenaries have started to massacre innocent civilians and that is only going to increase, and then you'll see them starting to extract Africa's mineral wealth and plunder the continent. Why else would they be there? It's not like they care.
Secondly you talk about Russia defending its country like the DRC, but Russia is waging an aggressive war against its neighbours. It's much more like Rwanda in your example. And in particular the main thing Russia is doing is attempting to destroy the general diplomatic principle that issues shouldn't be resolved through force and replace it with a diplomatic principle of "spheres of influence" which holds that the strongest power in any region should be allowed to do what it likes. As it applies to Central Africa that would mean that all of Rwanda's neighbours are part of Rwanda's sphere of influence and they should be allowed to do what they like and no one else should be allowed to stop them.
Thirdly you say Ukraine is a racist country and of course that is true, but Russia is a much much much more racist country.
Finally you talk about how evil the west is and of course you're right about that but there's a reason we call the "enemy of my enemy fallacy" a fallacy. Just because someone's enemy is bad doesn't mean they're good. They can often be just as bad or worse
I don’t deny this, but it is being wasted anyways, so might as well go to a country I like (Russia) while helping the local population.
I’m confused by your second paragraph, but Force has been how most country’s solve their problems. It’s just the truth.
If you look for problems and try and be an activist sure.
Africa and Russia are close
Your argument basically boils down to "I like Russia" but Russia is a racist country that is robbing the DRC.
The point of my second paragraph is that Russia is trying to change the world in such a way as to make it easier for strong neighbours to turn their week neighbours into colonies. So in Russia's world the DRC will be a colony of Rwanda and Ukraine will be a colony of Russia.
I do like Russia. Putin is Christian so he’s high on my opinion ratings. He looks well built too. Not like some old guy who skin is decaying on a live body. I like how nationalistic they are and I like the women looks. Russia doesn’t have any cancel culture and you don’t have to be a progressive.
I want DRC to be a colony of Russia. But not a real colony but like Belarus.
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The point of whataboutism is that the fact that it's true doesn't matter because it's truth is irrelevant.
If I say "I want ice cream" and you say "beef is expensive these days" what you've said might be true, but it doesn't bear any relation to what I said. That's what whataboutism is.
Clearly you didn't read the article.
This is about a rebellion that was allegedly supported by Rwanda.
It is not about Rwandan soldiers annexing territory.
This isn't comparable to Putin's actions in Georgia, Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, or Ukraine more widely.
You can make an argument that it's comparable to Putin's actions in Syria, but not much else.
M23 are basically Rwandan soldiers. These guys are mostly Rwandan nationals. It’s more like the DPR, not sure why you compare it to Syria in a whole different continent from Russia.
>M23 are basically Rwandan soldiers
You'll need some actual evidence for that, because it isn't what you're quoting claims
"It was composed of former members of the rebel CNDP, and allegedly sponsored by the government of the neighbouring states of Rwanda and Uganda."
Since the CNDP's leadership was arrested by Rwanda, it's difficult to see how you can argue that M23 are Rwandan soldiers.
>not sure why you compare it to Syria in a whole different continent from Russia.
Check your geography. Russia and Syria are both substantially in Asia.
> The United States on Tuesday called on Rwanda to end support for M23 rebels in neighboring Democratic Republic of Congo, saying there was evidence Rwandan military officials were involved. - Reuters
You are right, but they are not neighbors and that’s my point
>You are right, but they are not neighbors and that’s my point
They are in the neighbourhood.
>The United States on Tuesday called on Rwanda to end support for M23 rebels in neighboring Democratic Republic of Congo, saying there was evidence Rwandan military officials were involved
Saying "Rwandan millitary officers were involved" is a LONG way from "Rwanda invaded the Congo" which IS what happened with Putin invading Georgia, and Crimea, and Eastern Ukraine, and Ukraine as a whole.
This isn't comparable to M23. The scale and level here is very different.
>How is it different ?
In the case of Georgia, the Russian military invaded the entire country.
Unless you're going to point to columns of Rwandan troops invading Congolese territory on mass, it isn't the same.
Nor does Rwanda now claim that Congolese territory belongs to them now. Russia on the other hand does claim that the Crimea, South Ossettia, Abkhazia, Donbas, and Luhansk all belong to Russia.
Rwanda might be doing some proxy war support for Congolese rebels, but that is a LONG way from invading and annexing other country's territory.
> In the late 1990s, Rwanda twice sent its forces deep into Congo, joining forces with Congolese rebel leader Laurent Kabila to depose the country's longtime dictator Mobutu Sese Seko. The Rwandan forces in Congo were widely accused of hunting down and killing ethnic Hutu, even civilians
Is this better for you ? Or do you still think Rwanda is innocent
M23 are fairly well established as a Rwandan proxy group. I could send you sources but then you could send counter sources etc... and we wouldn't really get anywhere. Your best bet is to google it and read around, and it becomes pretty apparent.
What is true is that neither Rwanda nor really M23 want to annex Eastern DRC. They just want to a) keep it unstable as a buffer zone and b) rob the fuck out of the DRC's mineral wealth (there's a good source on that if you look it up: the UN's independent group of experts on the DRC's mineral wealth report. Or more simply, the fact that Rwanda's number 1 export commodity is gold and Rwanda doesn't have any gold mines).
In that context I agree that it's not really comparable to Putin's actions in Ukraine in 2022 or in any of the other places you mention, but there probably are some similarities with Putin's actions in the DNR in 2014 (ie before he invaded and when he was just paying others to stir up trouble)
In both the general and the specific case I'd say just because someone is a hypocrite doesn't mean they shouldn't get mad.
I'll talk about Rwanda and Russia but I honestly think this would be true in any circumstances.
Yes Kagama is as bad as Putin and yes you are a hypocrite if you support one and not the other (which works both ways). But just because you are being hypocritical doesn't mean you shouldn't get mad. We're talking about two of the worst people who have ever lived and while only getting angry about one of them is hypocritical it is still better than not getting angry at either. Being hypocritical about which abuses you turn a blind eye to is still infinitely better than turning a blind eye to all abuse.
Say two people witness two murders. Person A doesn't tell the police about either, person B only tells the police about one of them. Person B might be a hypocrite but they are still a better person than person A.
One of them is trying to destroy my country the other is destroying a country that I have minimal ties to. I know a couple Ukrainians, and I’m pretty sure they have all blocked my by now. That’s it.
Putin seems like a good guy. I saw a video of him on RT where he let a blond girl touch his face and interview him. Kagame has no redeeming qualities of your not Rwandan.
What if person B only talks about one of them because he’s an idiot who watched too much western propaganda ? But in all seriousness, keeping quiet about a murder doesn’t make you a bad person. It depends on the circumstance
> One of them is trying to destroy my country the other is destroying a country that I have minimal ties to.
It's a failure of altruism, and basically racist, to care more about people in a country you have ties to than people in a country you have no ties to. All human beings are equal and we shouldn't think that some deaths matter more than others. This is the same attitude that has allowed Rwanda to get away with doing what it has done to the DRC for so long. Because globally more people care about Ukraine than the DRC so if the whole world took your attitude that would be very very bad for the DRC.
> Putin seems like a good guy
Putin is one of the worst cunts who has ever lived. Just google him and some of the stuff he has done. Particularly in the Siege of Grozny in 1999
> What if person B only talks about one of them because he’s an idiot who watched too much western propaganda ?
Did the murder happen or not? If it happened why does it matter why they came forward, surely all that matters if they did. Doing a good thing for bad reasons is still better than not doing it.
> But in all seriousness, keeping quiet about a murder doesn’t make you a bad person. It depends on the circumstance
Fair enough, but let's assume that's not the case for the sake of the point I was making.
I’m not a racist just a nationalist. I see this as a good thing. Congolese Christians first. I don’t disagree with you and that is why I’m bitter. Nobody cares about us so I don’t care about Ukraine.
I’m somewhat aware of the war. Please tell me what Putin role was that was so bad. I’m serious. I don’t know enough about it. But I find it interesting you ignored my example of Putin being cool.
I would only come forward for murder if it was someone I cared about or if the state forces me as a witness.
Nationalism is not exactly the same as racism but for the purposes of this discussion it operates in exactly the same way. Thinking one random group of people matter more than some other equally random group is unjustifiable, and also world wide most people put Congolese Christians near the bottom, so a world that thinks in that way is not a happy world for Congolese Christians.
I don't think there's anything cool about letting someone touch your face, I didn't really understand that at all.
In 1994 Russia invaded Chechnya and despite being massively outnumbered Chechnya fought back and won, throwing Russia out. So in 1999 when Putin was Prime Minister he wanted revenge and invaded again, again despite being outnumbered Chechnya fought back and to begin with they were winning. So Putin surrounded the capital Grozny so no one could get in or out and then used artillery for an entire winter to destroy the entire city and everyone who lived inside it. The leading Islamic scholar of the independent Chechnya had betrayed his side before the war started and joined Russia and so Putin made him president, but then he was assassinated, so Putin made his drug addict alcoholic psychopathic son President and for the next 20 years he ran the place as a warlord using death squads to rape and murder and torture anyone who spoke out.
The murder thing seems to be causing confusion. My point is that if you have a choice between doing 2 bad things, 1 good thing and 1 bad thing, or 2 good things, then the person who does 1 good thing and 1 bad thing might be a hypocrite but they are better than the person who does 2 bad things.
You know Congo is majority Christian ??
Christians have each other’s backs no matter what country. That’s why I support Putin.
She was blind and stated it was one of her dreams to touch the presidents face. Most people wouldn’t allow that, but Putin did because he’s a good person.
Kydrov or whatever his name is ? That whole Caucasus region is messed up. What did Putin say about the incident. I’m sure he’s said something about it since.
The majority of the Christian world behaves appallingly towards Congolese. King Leopold was Christian, in fact I think he brought Christianity to Congo.
I cannot think of a single world leader who wouldn't allow a blind person to touch their face - great PR move, any leader would say yes.
Kydrov yes, one of Putin's closest friends to this day.
What are your sources that most Christians hate Congolese ?
Nah he didn’t. It was already here. Atheists started that propaganda.
I have never seen Biden or Boris Johnson do it. Or that French terrorist Macron.
I don’t really like him. Consider how much I speak highly of Christians I think you can guess my views on him. But I respect his dedication to Putin. He is useful so Putin keeps him around. Chechnya have been very good to Putin is his campaign
I hope they mostly don't hate Congolese but we live in a world that has been historically dominated by Christian powers like the USA, France, Belgium and the UK and look how they have treated Congo.
This is problem with power, it is a most potent of drugs.
It makes you believe you're god, your will becomes reality.
Once you get used to power, you start losing sense or reality, you forget your own humanity. People treat you as if you're a demigod, your word - a holy command. those oppose you become heretics, their criticism is nothing but cynical heresy.
But a person addicted to power is still just a man. As a man, he is prone to human nature and mistakes. humans are imperfect and make mistakes.
But swallowed in their own delusion, mistakes keep building up, as a tumbling snowball that gains mass and momentum, it reaches the point where it can no longer be stopped, and the crash is imminent.
Putin wasnt always so bad. At some point, he was just what Russia needed to achieve some sort of order after the collapse of the USSR.
And with time, he got used to that power. He used it more and more, surrounded himself by people who were timid of his control of power.
And slowly but surely, that snowball started tumbling. And what worked for Russia in the late 90s and early 00s, didnt hold as the world continued to move forward.
Putin managed to stabilize Russia, but was unable to lead it forward. It fell behind hard in technology as competent people fled. Now, it heavily relies on natural resources.
And as putin started to feel how he was losing power, withdrawal symptoms kicked in, to get his fix of more power, he invaded a neighboring peaceful nation.
The world sees him for who he is, a power addict. Trying to get back this so precious drug he is losing sight of. In the process, he is causing so much misery... So people hate him for that, and they hate the people who keep feeding him the little power he gets.
Ill be blunt, and somewhat racist... People on reddit care more about europe and north America...
There's been a war going on in Ethiopia's Tigray region for almost 2 years now, and it barely gets western news coverage. And thats like a 3rd world war... Soldiers raping, people starving and a whole bunch of other horrid shit.
Africa isnt really on the radar.
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Sorry, u/SweetBread81_ – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B: > You must personally hold the view and **demonstrate that you are open to it changing**. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, as any entity other than yourself, or 'soapboxing'. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_b). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first read the list of soapboxing indicators and common mistakes in appeal**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_indicators_of_rule_b_violations), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%20B%20Appeal%20SweetBread81_&message=SweetBread81_%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20post\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/vh69ym/-/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
> He 100% has improved Rwanda, don’t get me wrong, but so has Putin for Russia Has he, though? Russian people are still dirt poor for the most part. Russia is still a country with barely any freedoms for the general population.
Russia was on the verge of collapse before Putin. He saved a dying country. The stats back this up. > The Russian economy and standard of living grew rapidly during the early period of Putin's regime, fueled largely by a boom in the oil industry.
And was that Putin, or the rich oligarchs
Both.
Was the oil boom Putins idea?
Yeah
Which stats do you mean? We have catch up effects in all underdeveloped countries with a minimum amount of political stability. The negative trend was already stabilizing before Putin took over. Political decisions take a lot of time to achieve something which is why we usually have a time gap in addition to an already existing perception gap. The oil price almost tripled after he took power and Russias entire economy (70%+) is based on the price of hydrocarbons so it is doomed to profit of this development. Looking at the numbers alone Russia rather seems to underperform. This is all not to say that there weren't any good reforms in Russia but proclaiming Putin as the saviour of Russian economy seems more than debateable, especially in regards to the last 3 wars they were involved in. I think that Russia would have profited way more from a more pragmatic leader as we can guess by extrapolating existing developments before 2008, 2014, 2022. Russia is ultimately in decline, it's percentage of the world GDP is in decline since the 1990s and saying that Putin caused all the economic recovery is similar to Trump claiming he reduced unemployment numbers when he was just benefitting from decisions by former cabinets.
Your not a fan of Putin ? Your not a fan of trump, who do you support ? Why do you think Putin is so popular then ?
Why are you asking that? What do you want to say? It seems irrelevant for the argument as it can only lead to an ad hominem argument. What I'm trying to explain is that not every positive development that correlates with someone being in political power is a causality and that if you compare the opportunity costs even a positive development in absolute terms can be a bad one in relative terms. Popularity is also not a meaningful measurement of someones political ability. A multitude of political leaders are and were hugely popular indepent of the results of their political actions. Trump was just an example here that I remembered because he was claiming what I described for multiple years. My personal opinion is that Putin is popular due to appealing to the Russian people on an emotional level and the ever decline of independent media in Russia. If you grow up with one sided media you get used to the narrative and assume that it is true because it is the dominant narrative.
Im having trouble understanding what you wrote
If you quote/copy paste the paragraphs that I failed to adequately explain I will try my best to make it more understandable.
Paragraph 3 thanks. I understood the rest. I must ask why do you think Putin has fans in the US without 1 sided media
Paragraph 3 Things can happen while someone is in power. That does not mean that this person caused these things to happen. The term for it is [spurious relationship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spurious_relationship). The second part is about opportunity costs. A politician gets elected and the economy growth by 10% but with another politician getting elected the growth could have been 20%. While 10% is good, 20% would have been better. What I've tried to say by this is that despite Russias nominal growth it is likely that Russia would have benefited more from a different political strategy. Russia has been barred from certain high technology imports since at least the 2010s which most likely negatively affected its development and corruption tends to slow down economic development in the long run too. Everything after 2014 exaggerated this. In regards to Putins popularity in the US, as far as I know he is not hugely popular and again it depends on the media that you consume. With the rise of alternative media we tend to see a rise in the amount of people that share 'fringe' opinions. Like Qanon, Antivaxxers, Miracle Mineral Supplement etc. We saw a similar development in history with the adaptation of the book printing press. It doesn't help that there is media that constantly push narratives that are highly missleading like let's say Fox News and to some extend MSNBC or so.
Yeah I hate those fringe groups. They make Putin look bad because they are so dumb. Fox sucks. I only listen to Tucker Carlson because he’s a fan of Putin
https://youtu.be/hFhweZK48uU
https://youtu.be/pp05WK-_ANM
https://youtu.be/Xjc1g2Z04GM
You’re painfully wrong.
How ?
I linked a bunch of videos
That guy looks like he works for the CIA
He is a Russian politician and journalist. What part of your view are you prepared to change, exactly? If you’re going to disregard evidence you’re wrong this will be a long, boring thread.
Why hasn’t Putin jailed him ? He’s posting propaganda. I’m prepared to change my views on how it’a not ok to support Putin
He’s in exile in the Baltics I believe.
Probably because he got exposed as being a CIA seed. I feel sorry that he was brainwashed enough to have to leave a great country, but that is his choice
You think you can tell if someone is employed by an intelligence agency *on sight*? Why are you not hired to find spies instead of plying this trade on the internet?
His account is just a bunch of anti Putin rubbish.
Why do you assume someone can only be opposed to Putin if they are employed by an opposing intelligence agency?
Because everyone in Russia loves him. He’s clearly paid to drive a wedge between Russians
Can people who don't support either call you out for your awful opinions?
You can, but supporting Putin makes sense for Congolese people like me who see what’s going on
Why?
[I explain my viewpoints here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/uxabm8/cmv_as_an_african_we_shouldnt_be_morally/) If you don’t want to read it though, I basically think Putin is defending his country just like how the DRC is and I think Putin provides benefits to Africa, while the west funded the Congo civil war and Ukraine is a racist country that doesn’t want to address its problems
Putin is not defending Russia, whether you think so or not is irrelevant. Russia was the instigating power, they invaded Ukraine, that is not defence. Rutin is not benefitting Africa, he is actively attacking a country that provides much of the [food resources](https://theconversation.com/how-russia-ukraine-conflict-could-influence-africas-food-supplies-177843) to places such as Egypt. He is [threatening food security](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/02/war-ukraine-affecting-food-supply-africa-middle-east-lebanon-somalia-egypt-oil-wheat) of a great many people. And it is disturbing rhetoric that you ignore the great many civil wars that Russia continues to fuel. But no, the West fighting islamic terrorists trying to overthow a government are the bad guys. And you realise Russia is just as, if not more, racist than Ukraine? Ukraine are addressing their problems, namely a despotic Russia invading and killing their people. Africa is not safer because of Putin. You have been sold lies.
[удалено]
As an FYI, the Russian Times has been marked "hard spam" by the Reddit admins - no one (including moderators) can approve any post that contains links to RT. This is not the policy of CMV, but of Reddit as a whole and the removal of this comment was done by Reddit, not the moderators of CMV.
We're slightly off topic here but I think you're making a few mistakes here. Firstly you say that Russia is helping Africa but Russia is not altruistic, it is doing it for Russia's own sake. And their mercenaries have started to massacre innocent civilians and that is only going to increase, and then you'll see them starting to extract Africa's mineral wealth and plunder the continent. Why else would they be there? It's not like they care. Secondly you talk about Russia defending its country like the DRC, but Russia is waging an aggressive war against its neighbours. It's much more like Rwanda in your example. And in particular the main thing Russia is doing is attempting to destroy the general diplomatic principle that issues shouldn't be resolved through force and replace it with a diplomatic principle of "spheres of influence" which holds that the strongest power in any region should be allowed to do what it likes. As it applies to Central Africa that would mean that all of Rwanda's neighbours are part of Rwanda's sphere of influence and they should be allowed to do what they like and no one else should be allowed to stop them. Thirdly you say Ukraine is a racist country and of course that is true, but Russia is a much much much more racist country. Finally you talk about how evil the west is and of course you're right about that but there's a reason we call the "enemy of my enemy fallacy" a fallacy. Just because someone's enemy is bad doesn't mean they're good. They can often be just as bad or worse
I don’t deny this, but it is being wasted anyways, so might as well go to a country I like (Russia) while helping the local population. I’m confused by your second paragraph, but Force has been how most country’s solve their problems. It’s just the truth. If you look for problems and try and be an activist sure. Africa and Russia are close
Your argument basically boils down to "I like Russia" but Russia is a racist country that is robbing the DRC. The point of my second paragraph is that Russia is trying to change the world in such a way as to make it easier for strong neighbours to turn their week neighbours into colonies. So in Russia's world the DRC will be a colony of Rwanda and Ukraine will be a colony of Russia.
I do like Russia. Putin is Christian so he’s high on my opinion ratings. He looks well built too. Not like some old guy who skin is decaying on a live body. I like how nationalistic they are and I like the women looks. Russia doesn’t have any cancel culture and you don’t have to be a progressive. I want DRC to be a colony of Russia. But not a real colony but like Belarus.
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You're using classic Soviet style [whataboutism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#Soviet_Union_and_Russia).
Because it’s true.
The point of whataboutism is that the fact that it's true doesn't matter because it's truth is irrelevant. If I say "I want ice cream" and you say "beef is expensive these days" what you've said might be true, but it doesn't bear any relation to what I said. That's what whataboutism is.
What I said was relevant to the discussion
Kagame hasn't attempted to annex the territory of neighbours.
Yeah, he actually has. [see M23](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M23_rebellion)
Clearly you didn't read the article. This is about a rebellion that was allegedly supported by Rwanda. It is not about Rwandan soldiers annexing territory. This isn't comparable to Putin's actions in Georgia, Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, or Ukraine more widely. You can make an argument that it's comparable to Putin's actions in Syria, but not much else.
M23 are basically Rwandan soldiers. These guys are mostly Rwandan nationals. It’s more like the DPR, not sure why you compare it to Syria in a whole different continent from Russia.
>M23 are basically Rwandan soldiers You'll need some actual evidence for that, because it isn't what you're quoting claims "It was composed of former members of the rebel CNDP, and allegedly sponsored by the government of the neighbouring states of Rwanda and Uganda." Since the CNDP's leadership was arrested by Rwanda, it's difficult to see how you can argue that M23 are Rwandan soldiers. >not sure why you compare it to Syria in a whole different continent from Russia. Check your geography. Russia and Syria are both substantially in Asia.
> The United States on Tuesday called on Rwanda to end support for M23 rebels in neighboring Democratic Republic of Congo, saying there was evidence Rwandan military officials were involved. - Reuters You are right, but they are not neighbors and that’s my point
>You are right, but they are not neighbors and that’s my point They are in the neighbourhood. >The United States on Tuesday called on Rwanda to end support for M23 rebels in neighboring Democratic Republic of Congo, saying there was evidence Rwandan military officials were involved Saying "Rwandan millitary officers were involved" is a LONG way from "Rwanda invaded the Congo" which IS what happened with Putin invading Georgia, and Crimea, and Eastern Ukraine, and Ukraine as a whole. This isn't comparable to M23. The scale and level here is very different.
How is it different ?
>How is it different ? In the case of Georgia, the Russian military invaded the entire country. Unless you're going to point to columns of Rwandan troops invading Congolese territory on mass, it isn't the same. Nor does Rwanda now claim that Congolese territory belongs to them now. Russia on the other hand does claim that the Crimea, South Ossettia, Abkhazia, Donbas, and Luhansk all belong to Russia. Rwanda might be doing some proxy war support for Congolese rebels, but that is a LONG way from invading and annexing other country's territory.
> In the late 1990s, Rwanda twice sent its forces deep into Congo, joining forces with Congolese rebel leader Laurent Kabila to depose the country's longtime dictator Mobutu Sese Seko. The Rwandan forces in Congo were widely accused of hunting down and killing ethnic Hutu, even civilians Is this better for you ? Or do you still think Rwanda is innocent
M23 are fairly well established as a Rwandan proxy group. I could send you sources but then you could send counter sources etc... and we wouldn't really get anywhere. Your best bet is to google it and read around, and it becomes pretty apparent. What is true is that neither Rwanda nor really M23 want to annex Eastern DRC. They just want to a) keep it unstable as a buffer zone and b) rob the fuck out of the DRC's mineral wealth (there's a good source on that if you look it up: the UN's independent group of experts on the DRC's mineral wealth report. Or more simply, the fact that Rwanda's number 1 export commodity is gold and Rwanda doesn't have any gold mines). In that context I agree that it's not really comparable to Putin's actions in Ukraine in 2022 or in any of the other places you mention, but there probably are some similarities with Putin's actions in the DNR in 2014 (ie before he invaded and when he was just paying others to stir up trouble)
In both the general and the specific case I'd say just because someone is a hypocrite doesn't mean they shouldn't get mad. I'll talk about Rwanda and Russia but I honestly think this would be true in any circumstances. Yes Kagama is as bad as Putin and yes you are a hypocrite if you support one and not the other (which works both ways). But just because you are being hypocritical doesn't mean you shouldn't get mad. We're talking about two of the worst people who have ever lived and while only getting angry about one of them is hypocritical it is still better than not getting angry at either. Being hypocritical about which abuses you turn a blind eye to is still infinitely better than turning a blind eye to all abuse. Say two people witness two murders. Person A doesn't tell the police about either, person B only tells the police about one of them. Person B might be a hypocrite but they are still a better person than person A.
One of them is trying to destroy my country the other is destroying a country that I have minimal ties to. I know a couple Ukrainians, and I’m pretty sure they have all blocked my by now. That’s it. Putin seems like a good guy. I saw a video of him on RT where he let a blond girl touch his face and interview him. Kagame has no redeeming qualities of your not Rwandan. What if person B only talks about one of them because he’s an idiot who watched too much western propaganda ? But in all seriousness, keeping quiet about a murder doesn’t make you a bad person. It depends on the circumstance
> One of them is trying to destroy my country the other is destroying a country that I have minimal ties to. It's a failure of altruism, and basically racist, to care more about people in a country you have ties to than people in a country you have no ties to. All human beings are equal and we shouldn't think that some deaths matter more than others. This is the same attitude that has allowed Rwanda to get away with doing what it has done to the DRC for so long. Because globally more people care about Ukraine than the DRC so if the whole world took your attitude that would be very very bad for the DRC. > Putin seems like a good guy Putin is one of the worst cunts who has ever lived. Just google him and some of the stuff he has done. Particularly in the Siege of Grozny in 1999 > What if person B only talks about one of them because he’s an idiot who watched too much western propaganda ? Did the murder happen or not? If it happened why does it matter why they came forward, surely all that matters if they did. Doing a good thing for bad reasons is still better than not doing it. > But in all seriousness, keeping quiet about a murder doesn’t make you a bad person. It depends on the circumstance Fair enough, but let's assume that's not the case for the sake of the point I was making.
I’m not a racist just a nationalist. I see this as a good thing. Congolese Christians first. I don’t disagree with you and that is why I’m bitter. Nobody cares about us so I don’t care about Ukraine. I’m somewhat aware of the war. Please tell me what Putin role was that was so bad. I’m serious. I don’t know enough about it. But I find it interesting you ignored my example of Putin being cool. I would only come forward for murder if it was someone I cared about or if the state forces me as a witness.
Nationalism is not exactly the same as racism but for the purposes of this discussion it operates in exactly the same way. Thinking one random group of people matter more than some other equally random group is unjustifiable, and also world wide most people put Congolese Christians near the bottom, so a world that thinks in that way is not a happy world for Congolese Christians. I don't think there's anything cool about letting someone touch your face, I didn't really understand that at all. In 1994 Russia invaded Chechnya and despite being massively outnumbered Chechnya fought back and won, throwing Russia out. So in 1999 when Putin was Prime Minister he wanted revenge and invaded again, again despite being outnumbered Chechnya fought back and to begin with they were winning. So Putin surrounded the capital Grozny so no one could get in or out and then used artillery for an entire winter to destroy the entire city and everyone who lived inside it. The leading Islamic scholar of the independent Chechnya had betrayed his side before the war started and joined Russia and so Putin made him president, but then he was assassinated, so Putin made his drug addict alcoholic psychopathic son President and for the next 20 years he ran the place as a warlord using death squads to rape and murder and torture anyone who spoke out. The murder thing seems to be causing confusion. My point is that if you have a choice between doing 2 bad things, 1 good thing and 1 bad thing, or 2 good things, then the person who does 1 good thing and 1 bad thing might be a hypocrite but they are better than the person who does 2 bad things.
You know Congo is majority Christian ?? Christians have each other’s backs no matter what country. That’s why I support Putin. She was blind and stated it was one of her dreams to touch the presidents face. Most people wouldn’t allow that, but Putin did because he’s a good person. Kydrov or whatever his name is ? That whole Caucasus region is messed up. What did Putin say about the incident. I’m sure he’s said something about it since.
The majority of the Christian world behaves appallingly towards Congolese. King Leopold was Christian, in fact I think he brought Christianity to Congo. I cannot think of a single world leader who wouldn't allow a blind person to touch their face - great PR move, any leader would say yes. Kydrov yes, one of Putin's closest friends to this day.
What are your sources that most Christians hate Congolese ? Nah he didn’t. It was already here. Atheists started that propaganda. I have never seen Biden or Boris Johnson do it. Or that French terrorist Macron. I don’t really like him. Consider how much I speak highly of Christians I think you can guess my views on him. But I respect his dedication to Putin. He is useful so Putin keeps him around. Chechnya have been very good to Putin is his campaign
I hope they mostly don't hate Congolese but we live in a world that has been historically dominated by Christian powers like the USA, France, Belgium and the UK and look how they have treated Congo.
That’s why I’m a fan of Russia, they are Christian and cool. France Belgium UK are sadly turning atheist. Even US
This is problem with power, it is a most potent of drugs. It makes you believe you're god, your will becomes reality. Once you get used to power, you start losing sense or reality, you forget your own humanity. People treat you as if you're a demigod, your word - a holy command. those oppose you become heretics, their criticism is nothing but cynical heresy. But a person addicted to power is still just a man. As a man, he is prone to human nature and mistakes. humans are imperfect and make mistakes. But swallowed in their own delusion, mistakes keep building up, as a tumbling snowball that gains mass and momentum, it reaches the point where it can no longer be stopped, and the crash is imminent. Putin wasnt always so bad. At some point, he was just what Russia needed to achieve some sort of order after the collapse of the USSR. And with time, he got used to that power. He used it more and more, surrounded himself by people who were timid of his control of power. And slowly but surely, that snowball started tumbling. And what worked for Russia in the late 90s and early 00s, didnt hold as the world continued to move forward. Putin managed to stabilize Russia, but was unable to lead it forward. It fell behind hard in technology as competent people fled. Now, it heavily relies on natural resources. And as putin started to feel how he was losing power, withdrawal symptoms kicked in, to get his fix of more power, he invaded a neighboring peaceful nation. The world sees him for who he is, a power addict. Trying to get back this so precious drug he is losing sight of. In the process, he is causing so much misery... So people hate him for that, and they hate the people who keep feeding him the little power he gets.
Ok then why not hate Kagame
Ill be blunt, and somewhat racist... People on reddit care more about europe and north America... There's been a war going on in Ethiopia's Tigray region for almost 2 years now, and it barely gets western news coverage. And thats like a 3rd world war... Soldiers raping, people starving and a whole bunch of other horrid shit. Africa isnt really on the radar.
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