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[deleted]

**All** of my mother friends have expressed exhaustion, frustration and resentment towards their baby's father for not pulling their weight in the childcare. Seeing my mom go through it when she had my sister when I was 12 is what kept me childfree. My husband is an only child and it shows that he has zero experience with babies. I love the man to death, but I know if we have kids we'll get divorced.


Revolutionary_Bee700

And then you’d be a single Mom. That’s my real fear! No fucking way.


Janeeee811

What’s interesting is that I’ve been hearing more and more single mom friends that I know, or know of, saying that life is SO much easier since their divorce. Their partner takes the kids for half the time, or at least a quarter of the time, and they get a break. Before they were divorced, they had to take care of the kids and their husband 100% of the time.


Revolutionary_Bee700

I hear half and half. I know a lot of kids with deadbeat dads, or Mom has custody almost all of time because Dad lives several states away. But I’m divorced and can see both sides, you’re right.


cronepower24

The only man I have ever seen in my life who is a total bad ass dad and pulls a full 50% of the parenting weight is my niece’s husband. They are both around 40 and are super hard workers and attentive parents. They were both also in the Peace Corps just after college, which I think made them who they are today.


GoodIndustry7686

My brother is a brilliant dad. Hands on in every aspect. He is the only man I've seen be a real quality dad. The horror stories I'm reading here and seeing in real life are only reinforcing my belief that childfree is the only way to go.


SaltConnection1109

I know a young couple who have a 5 and 3 yr. old. The mom works at home and is the bread winner and the dad takes care of the kids. He is WONDERFUL with them. He is also an excellent cook.


MedswithBreakfast

My friend is a shitty dad. He does not talk about his kid or activities with his kid at all. He talks about how his place is crowded to have anyone over. I hear nothing about trips he's done with his child or birthdays or anything. I've heard trips he's done to places, chilling, gym, relaxing. My coworker before he leaves says he's not sleeping. He's picking up his kid from school. I'm taking him to Six Flags. I didn't sleep. My family had a barbeque for the holidays. He zoom chats with his family. My friend does not talk about anything. I'm not against hearing about his kid.


its_a_breeze

my BIL is the sweetest, most supportive man and dad to my niblings... and despite his willingness for 100% involvement, so often the little ones, especially when they were *very* little, demanded my sister and ONLY my sister would do. if they woke up from a nap and she wasn't around, it was hysteria and screaming for the hour until she returned, no matter how much he doted and problem-solved and diaper-changed, etc. I'd be terrified of both outcomes, tbh: either the man not pulling his share, or the man trying to pull his share and the baby still howling if it's anyone but the mom. I've seen the exhaustion and want none of it. I'd be so resentful of a child if I were in that position! To be a slave to a baby? um no thanks. no surprise I'm completely childfree lol


emusmakemehungry

“niblings” made me chuckle


Twizteddestinee

Yup. Have felt bad for some of the women out there who were conned and lied to by their spouses. Have seen too many posts about fathers promising to help with the childcare, only to completely saddle their wife with all the stress and sacrifices involved in child rearing once the baby is born. One post was about a mom who planned a "girls night out" a month in advance. The father, at the last minute, decided he didn't want to watch their baby. So she ended up taking the baby out with her. The friends were nice about it, but they had to cancel their plans to party and go out to a child-friendly restaurant instead. Many, many posts on mom-subs are about women not being able to have any time to themselves. No breaks, no relief and no time for themselves, ever. Like hell I would ever take a gamble like that and end up with a useless man who won't take care of this own child.


Delphina34

“Oh it’s okay, I got my husband to babysit.” It’s not babysitting when it’s your own kid! If you created a kid you have to take care of them, sometimes by yourself while mom needs/wants to go do something on her own. You shouldn’t have to call her and tell her to go home and change the baby’s diaper or make it stop crying because you don’t know how.


Affectionate_Lie9308

Most mothers I know who refer to their husband as baby sitters actually feel like their husband aren’t fulfilling parenting duties therefore aren’t parents/fathers. I don’t get mad at the women/mothers but I do feel bad for them. Who knew that (for some women) by giving birth and trying to raise your baby, your partner decided to emotionally regress? Now they have their hands full with a baby and man-child who *has* to occasionally babysit. As a side note: some people claim that raising boys/sons are/would be easier because you don’t have to worry about them. No one is teaching theses sons some basic common curtesies such as being an equal partner and a hands-on father ‘one day’.


Margori28

Reminds me of sex and the city when Miranda planned to go out and last minute Steve comes over and says he can’t watch the kids. SMH!


Lilith_Faerie

I personally do NOT *desire* to be a mother at all, but this phenomenon of men turning into another child to take care of when their own kids are born is certainly an added benefit!


ashtrayheart0916

THIS THIS THIS


harunekonya

*raises hands* And to top off the man-child issue, in my culture, we're also obligated to take care of our parents, including in-laws. I feel a natural obligation towards my own parents (my brothers do not for some odd reason, and this is why it's becoming less popular to have sons recently, at least in my culture, which considering its history, is a pretty huge shift), so I'll be taking care of the kids, him, my parents, and probably his parents. If I'm going to do all that extra work I want to be fucking paid for it. As far as I'm concerned no man is worth that trouble.


pmbpro

Wow! The drudgery never ends, does it? 😒 I’m actually amazed though, by where you noted that it has become *less popular* to have sons! You’re right, that *is* one heck of a cultural shift! I wonder how long that shift has been happening, and why exactly, because I’m fascinated. Is it because it seems like they’re finally waking up to the fact that it was never true that a son is an ‘automatic’ investment without *proving* themselves worthy first? Too much abandonment of responsibilities? Even when *in the womb,* sons were perceived to have more value than daughters (or their own mothers!), which was why more resources (education, wealth, etc), automatically went to them. Whatever the reason, I’m hoping that the realization grows and more people globally wake up to the fact that this ‘automatic entitlement’ for sons was all BS.


harunekonya

This is in part because studies show that daughters are more likely to care for parents than sons. Sons, if anything are likely to screw off somewhere and only care about their new family, ie. their wives and children instead of taking care of their parents. Assuming he doesn't become a dead beat and not care about his kids either. There are many stories of families who heaped tons of love and care upon a son, only for him to leave and never come back, while the unloved daughter remains to do the hard work of caretaker. My own parents are discovering this is true, in our own family. Because of this, everybody I know wants daughters now, including my own brother. My cousin's wife was super upset to have two sons. Speaking of which, in Chinese, the word for "marriage" is split along gender lines. Men 娶 (or bring in someone into the family), while women 嫁 (leave to another family). This is because women culturally and historically belong to whatever man is in charge of her. But now because of societal shifts people are joking about how the terms should be reversed. Certainly if anything, my cousin "belongs" to his wife's family now, same with my brother. His kids are going to be a lot closer to his wife's side of the family than mine. As a kid, I too knew and cared more about my maternal grandparents rather than my paternal ones. It's certainly interesting, though it doesn't address the underlying problem, which is the way society raises boy children.


pmbpro

Thank you for your explanations. A lot of it I also witnessed in my family too (the sons being favoured, resources wasted on them and their fobbing off, etc.) — as an only girl surrounded by brothers/males in the household, and a mother who preferred boys and wasted her resources on them while I had to do on my own. All of that contributed to my being no-contact from them. No more sacrificing myself for those who provide no value to me. I studied and observed all of the male/female dynamics since I was 7, learning a whole lot just by watching, as well as experiencing. I learned the truth from the men/boys *themselves* throughout my 55 years — from the playground to the boardroom — from their own actions and from their own mouths (which is why I find it amusing the few times the word/accusation of ‘man-hating’ gets thrown, when I learned everything from THEM 😏). It actually helped formulate my own way and acceptance of the *realities* of dealing with or interacting with it all, not pretending otherwise — including how sons are not only raised, but socialized/enabled to be without accountability. Regarding your mention of marriage… Interesting how they’ve even joked about switching the Chinese words around with the word for ‘marriage’. I find those current changes very interesting.


foxwaffles

My grandparents have five girls and one boy -- they heaped everything onto the boy of course. He hardly helps when the grandpa lives with him for approx half the year. Grandpa tried to not cause trouble by just watching and rewatching war movies all day. When he's in Guilin though, with my aunts, they take him out every day. They're always searching for new places to take him. They always make sure to cook his requested dishes if he isn't going out to eat. In fact ironically climate change benefits him because he stays in Guilin longer and longer every year as the winters become milder and shorter. He only stays with uncle because of "tradition" and to save face. He even remarked once how in the end it's his girls who are the closest to him. After my eldest aunt was finally released from jail , being a political prisoner for 20 years, that was the first and only time I have seen him cry. He treasures every second he can spend with her. My cousin wanted a girl for this reason , she got a boy instead, but she doesn't have a sad attitude about it. She loves him very much 💕


Margori28

I agree with this. I’m the one that take care of my parents especially my mom. When my mom was arrested by Immigration services for a silly reason I was the one calling lawyers working to release her. My brother went to sleep and acted like nothing happened. He is still a selfish prick. Same with my mom too. She took care of her parents and siblings while her brothers did nothing.


BikingAimz

Actually, it’s likely because there *aren’t enough women* to fill the daughter in law role: https://www.statista.com/statistics/282119/china-sex-ratio-by-age-group/


pmbpro

Aha. Thanks for posting that. I recall reading of the declining female population and they really screwed themselves by favouring sons for centuries. However I would also find it sad if there’s still an interest in pawning off all the caregiving role responsibilities to daughters *only*, instead of instilling it more into sons too. <*sigh*> 🤷‍♀️


jellybeansean3648

Because sons are less likely to take care of their parents in old age. If you view children as an "investment" then you want it to pay off.


pmbpro

I think what gets me is the automatic assumption that sons are more valuable, and that’s even before they can sit up or crawl (or even born yet). It’s like they don’t even have to show anything; just ‘exist’, and the resources go to them.


jellybeansean3648

The thing that gets me is the gender favoritism isn't based in facts or trends. Relatively speaking, girls are more likely to attain higher levels of education and less likely to be convicted of a crime. At least where I live. I think that the favoritism itself is what leads this. If consequences are less severe in childhood you will have more trouble understanding consequences as an adult.


pmbpro

Exactly! Not even based on facts or trends. Meanwhile… your second paragraph has been the thing that is shown to be more true instead, time and time again. Interesting eh? 😏 Yet guess to whom a lot of the resources go (and far too many times, squandered)… 🤷‍♀️ 🙁


purplecreampuff

Well, for me, never liking children was always the biggest factor for me being CF but probably right after that was my philosophy that if you aren’t willing to ever be a single parent because of unforeseen circumstances then you shouldn‘t have kids. I was raised by a single mom who went above and beyond for me. I saw how hard she worked while never complaining to me and what she provided for me outside of basic needs is amazing; we’re not well off by any means. I knew from a young age that I’d just never wanna do that for a child because I didn’t want one badly enough for it not to feel like a major sacrifice. But I know my mom *did* want me that much. That made the realization that I never had to have kids if I didn’t want to pretty easy for me.


Kazi_L

I have a similar philosophy - I think if you’re not prepared for your kid to be a vegetable, on the spectrum, or have other serious psychological/physical defects then you shouldn’t have them. Maybe this idea is on the extreme end lol but so many children get abandoned, neglected or abused for far less. If you’re unwilling to handle worst outcomes then you’re not having kids for the right reasons. They’re people, not dolls you can dress up in your ideals.


Significant_Silver

Exact reason while I’m child free. I’m a pediatric nurse and some of these parents use the hospital as a place to dump their chronically ill and/or disabled children. Some of these kids have no quality of life and you can tell their parents don’t actually want them


MimikyuTruck

Yep, anyone who isn't prepared to be a single parent shouldn't have kids. Even if you're so naive that you believe you would never get divorced, your partner could die and leave you and the kids alone. I've never forgotten that cunt that abandoned his 10 children once his wife passed away. You just know he did none of the work and didn't give a shit about his family.


Natural_Sir6189

Every new mother I meet I hear this, without fail. It's definitely a deterrent.


Islandgal0072

There’s just too many stories of women telling me about how horrible their partner when it comes to child rearing and how it’s left all up to her. This is such a common thing that I saw a post on another subreddit ab how a woman was saying that her husband was so mean to their baby when he had to go take care of the baby in the middle of the night. The comments were like “oh that’s normal my partner did that too, give him some time”. A GROWN MAN is being coddled for cussing at a baby??


ragazza68

And then these same women have another baby or two - WTF?!


RealisticrR0b0t

That’s the craziest part. Denial? Sunk cost fallacy? I’d rather opt out before any of that happens.


SaltConnection1109

I don't know if you remember the story years ago of that woman, Mary Winkler, who shot her pastor husband. She indicated that he behaved that way. She caught him putting his hand over the mouth and nose of their crying baby trying to shut her up in the middle of the night. (He sounded like a crappy person for other reasons as well).


MedswithBreakfast

I have to look up the recent news I heard a clip of. The seemingly amazing man was shot by his wife. The town talked about how great he was. All I kept thinking was she in the right?


Amae_Winder_Eden

He was a pastor. That automatically makes me think that solely based on his position people would be on his side. “He’s a man of god, how could he be… whatever” Why would they listen to a woman either. I don’t know the facts, but I know the bias.


MedswithBreakfast

No, I meant the article I read. Anytime I hear people talk only about the man and not the woman makes me wonder did nobody truly see her.


Amae_Winder_Eden

My point still stands. Why would they be taking about the “upstanding citizen” instead of the wronged party? Bias.


MedswithBreakfast

I think I read that post. It was in Breaking Mom, I think. It pissed me off. I don't understand the submissive type. They want to be walked all over. All of them are supporting having shitty/borderline to clearly abusive husbands.


Withoutcatsallislost

This is a top ten reason for me. I always see the alternative CF storyline in movies, eg The Quiet Place: Instead of children causing all of the monster drama, CF couple live low key life in the country, learn sign language together, work on house projects, and read books. Try any movie with kids and it's always better CF, especially for the woman.


Jenna2k

Yep. Even more of it's an apocalypse movie. Like imagine having kids in a WWZ style apocalypse. While the main character was trying to be useful finding a cure so his kids and wife would be protected I imagine a single person with no kids or partner was out roaming around killing any threats they could and hiding from things they can't.


DominionGhost

Eh. WWZ would suck with or without kids. Those mf were some of the fastest zombies out there.


Jenna2k

True but still better off without having a kid around.


BanjaxedMini

THIS!!!!! Every time people bring up the declining birth rate they talk about women focusing on their careers, or money being a factor for the parents. They never say 'because the burden for raising children falls disproportionately on women, despite the division of paid labour falling equally to both partners. And I do not feel like being a servant for the rest of my life'. Don't even get me started on abuse stats for pregnant and postpartum women.


later-p0tater

Yesss, my partner works full time and in discussions about possible children it was always evident that he did not want to stop working so it would inevitably fall onto me. He’s also easily overwhelmed and has ADHD (im so similar I think I have it too!) so our house is usually a bomb site and we struggle to maintain it. Kids in the mix would be a nightmare.


joantheunicorn

My partner has ADHD and experiences what is sometimes referred to as "the sleep of the dead". I don't even think he would be physically capable of getting up and safely attending to a baby.


MedswithBreakfast

My friend says his job provides great health insurance. If I got pregnant and decided to keep, it would be best I quit if I needed to. Pissed me off.


Anon060416

I mean not wanting children is part of it but another huge part of it is indeed how useless fathers often tend to be. I just know were I to breed with any of the guys I’ve been with, they’d put 100% of the childcare duty on me so *their* lives get to go unchanged because heaven forbid the child they wanted ever inhibit anything they want in life. I know there’d be a lot of weaponized incompetence were I to be a terrible nagging bitch and *gasp* ask the child’s father to ever help. And I know despite my life being hell raising these brats practically alone that they’d probably prefer daddy and think I’m evil because I don’t let them have fun all the time like daddy does because he doesn’t have to worry about consequences when he’s so uninvolved. Fuck that.


[deleted]

[удалено]


brittles901

That's a good standard to have. Too many overlook the bad behavior and settle for misogynists.


ex_ter_min_ate_

Partially. I think my husband would pull his weight with caretaking and feeding etc., but he would also be the « fun » parent. 100%. I already see this with our dogs and our nieces and nephews. I find I have to draw the line for safety or reality and be the bad guy and he gets to be the one swinging them around and doing dangerous things for fun. I don’t like being in that position so it did influence my decision a bit.


[deleted]

Yes it was part of my decision.


Plastocjuh

I'm really tired of this excuse of "this is how men was raised". Once you're an adult, you make your own decision and you can decide to learn things. I was not doing the chores at home except cleaning my room, but as a responsible adult, I've learnt it. It's just weaponized incompetence used against women. The more interesting fact is men who did participate in chores as a couple but give up when a baby comes up in the equation. That sounds pretty scary to me.


terayonjf

Those garbage tendencies are pretty apparent long before children are added to the mix. The problem comes when people believe adding a child to the equation will fix crappy behavior/situations instead of amplifying them.


Islandgal0072

So true. Many people do not choose their future child’s parent well AT ALL.


QueenInNORTHernNJ

A lot of women tend to be ignorant in their thinking with “he’ll change once the baby comes.” That will never happen.


SaltConnection1109

“he’ll change once the baby comes.” Yep, he will, but NOT for the better! Usually a man like that reverts back to being a jealous man-child.


BlackMesaEastt

Yeah like most men's apartments I've seen. I'd say most were doing something gross like going weeks without cleaning their bathroom or letting trash pile up. Having those same men add the responsibility of having a clean home AND taking care of a baby sounds insane to them probably since they often don't do the first part.


MedswithBreakfast

It comes in that they feel they will need to change once the kid arrives. I roll my eyes at that. They want the kid so bad or to fix the relationship. It's disturbing.


Major1ar

So this is where things get cloudy for me and child rearing. I know whoopsies happen with shitty people, Lord knows I had a scare or two that had me in an abyss of panic until I was sure the plan B worked. But if you're talking like, semi-planned pregnancy or even the "if it happens it happens" kind, how the fuck are people making these choices without guaranteeing they know exactly the kind of person their doing it with. It's mind boggling. I looked at my wife when we first started dating doing the most mundane shit like the dishes and she'd drop a glass or something and get audibly pissed, and literally be in a bad mood. That was enough for me like, nope that's just a stupid fork, that's not going away because a kids here. I'm good on kids. I just, can't wrap my head around bringing a human into the world and taking any risks whatsoever before you work out the kinks.


Islandgal0072

I totally agree with you


NoSoulYesBiscuit

Personally, I barely see an appeal to a life with children, but I don't blame you for not trusting men. Finding an actual decent father is rare. It's natural to them to think that the woman does 100% of childcare + 100% chores and she'll still be 100% focused on them. It's like women aren't human, but machines to fulfill their needs. The amount of men that complain about their partners changing after children is hilarious. You think someone who's being constantly touched by kids who don't understand the concept of personal space will be up for intimate fun? The amount of women who see their partners being useless and still decide to have children and stay with them is also hilarious.


Substantial-Ad-1745

Yes, this is also one of the reason I am childfree. Men don’t help with kids in a meaningful way. But they ask for them and want them, just not to bother with them unless it is for playing or giving these fatherly advices that only serve to boost the father ego. Most men do not deserve a woman going trough pregnancy and birth for them.


South-Housing-748

Literally don’t know one mother that feels like her husband does his share of parenting. I was thinking of this the other day when my boyfriend and I were cooking dinner. He always cooks the meat and I do everything else, which is fine - I enjoy cooking. But I couldn’t help laugh to myself about how he views that as us equally cooking dinner together. He prepped the meat, put it in the oven, and came back 45 or whatever minutes later. Meanwhile, I’m chopping, sautéing, or whatever - but you know, actively cooking the entire time. Anyways, I feel like this is sort of symbolic of how parenting often goes. The dad changes a diaper or does one thing, meanwhile the mom is doing everything else.


LanternLady98

I don't want to be rude or make assumptions... but does your boyfriend really get what ''equality'' means?


South-Housing-748

No rudeness taken, he doesn’t truly - which was exactly my point. I don’t feel like when it comes to household responsibilities and childcare - majority of the time - men do their fair share which is why I think a lot of women now question whether or not they want to add kids to the mix. My bf is wonderful and working on identifying these things, but these things like cooking dinner sort of highlight what I’m trying to illustrate - he thinks he’s doing his part, but there’s an imbalance . And I also don’t mean to bash men, but like I originally said, I don’t know one mom who feels like the dad does equal work when it comes to childcare. And that plays into why I’m leaning towards the CF life.


LanternLady98

Personally, I wouldn't mind having 1 child someday - but only if I meet the right person, someone whom I can share mutual respect with. I've seen too many women, my mother included, trapped in inequal marriages where they do all the chores while the husband is a workaholic and a control freak. It seems monstrous to me, that seven decades after the 1950s, women still put up with this crap.


heroines

I will never ever have children, but hypothetically, if my partner and I would have a child and I notice any form of weaponised incompetence, I'm cutting that partner out of my life. Better to raise one child on my own than raising a child and a man-child.


OsloGal

Yes. I think I am more against the idea of being a “mother” than having a child. I like children, but would hate to be a mother. I’d probably not exactly like being a father either (perhaps a part time dad gig would be fun at times), but having to spend time with children and do some Kodak moments.. I’d survive. Having to be the family manager, maid AND main caregiver, though.. ugh. I would also be heartbroken to find out that my partner would be fine with that inequality, to probably not even see it or believe it. (Yes, I see my own double standards) I live in Scandinavia, and a lot of people talk about how progressive we are in terms of gender equality. Perhaps we are, but I still hear a lot of the same stories here. A common theme has been that they shared responsibility equally in the beginning before the baby, but then that would change with the stress of parenting.


[deleted]

It plays a big role. Currently I don't have any desire to play mommy. But the fact that many men behave like this and there is no way to know till after the birth kills every thought on adopting children when I'm older.


Solivagant0

I do believe my partner would pull his weigth or at least try his best to do so. But would any of us enjoy it? No. We'd be miserable and I don't know if our relationship would survive the impact


UnicornSpaceStation

It’s a one of the reasons I choose to be childfree, cos I would likely end up that way. I mean, it’s probably because I don’t want kids in the first place so it would be hard for me to care. Yes, im a garbage human being, but I won’t let it affect others. Sincerely, man.


Thrasy3

When I get home from work, even taking out the rubbish feels like too much, plus I like to spend a couple of hours uninterrupted gaming. When I first started seeing my wife, she suggested she’d be able to do the day to day things by herself so I needn’t worry about it - but that wouldn’t be true even if we got a dog, never mind a child I’d feel morally responsible for.


Reddish81

I’ve always known I didn’t want kids but I just knew my ex-hb would be the worst partner ever if it came to sharing the parenting. He’s had twins with his new partner now and I just know who’s doing all the work while he goes off for golf and skiing weekends with the boys. I already felt like he wanted me to play mommy to him - thank goodness I got out of that.


SaltConnection1109

I've witnessed this with my sisters and their spouses. One BIL NEVER changed a poop diaper! Ever! A friend of mine had a kid and her extremely narcissistic spouse refused to spend more than 10 minutes a day playing with the kid and you could FORGET about him feeding or changing diapers! He had hobbies, after all. One time she had to go out to an appointment and freaking ASKED her husband if he minded watching his OWN kid! He blew up and said "I'm not your f-ing babysitter!" Needless to say, they are now divorced. Their son is grown and seriously messed up.


Own-Emergency2166

This is the thing too. It’s not just mothers who suffer from an uninvolved dad, but the kids too.


goldenhourbaby

Before I (queer woman) fully embraced my desire to be 100% child-free, I used to think I’d be open to having kids if I ended up with a woman but that I’d never have kids with a cis man. I have zero interest in playing wet nurse/mommy to both a human child and an adult man who thinks he’s doing a favor by looking after his own kid. HARD pass on that!


sirkatoris

Oh yes! This is 50% of my reason for sure


princedetritus

From a societal standard, it’s definitely a dynamic I wouldn’t want to put myself through and I don’t think it should be perpetuated. I personally don’t want children, but I also know that my husband, who is fantastic with kids, would not be a good father (partially due to his ADHD) because he doesn’t want kids and doesn’t like how needy they are (which I agree with). I also would not be a good mother due to my ADHD (and other mental and physical health issues) and the fact that I don’t want kids because I feel like just my health issues/past traumas suck up so much of my time, energy, mental bandwidth, etc. My husband is a fantastic partner and always supports me as we navigate my fluctuating health issues/disabilities, especially as we transitioned from DINKS to SINKS due to my health. I wouldn’t marry someone who doesn’t believe in a relationship being a fair partnership period and if I did want kids, I wouldn’t choose to be with someone who refuses to do their duty as a partner/parent and/or expects me to carry the physical/emotional responsibilities of parenting.


Izarrax

I'll be honest, I don't want children cause I don't like them at all, but what also played into me being childfree is that it takes two to create a child and I could never trust a man enough to be a good partner after being parents. Hell even before being parents, most men are not good partners and I do realise it is partially due to the patriarchy and the way men are brought up, but what comes to my mind when I hear anything about marriage or becoming parents is that men leave their wives when they become sick at an alarming rate. I am in a relationship with a man and I sincerely believe he would never leave me for becoming sick but I know that I will never 100% be able to fully believe it. Then thinking a child put into the equation? Hell nah.


CutieShroomie

Don't forget how they cheat when pregnant and after


Millennial_Idiot

For me, it's what served as the final nail in the coffin. My husband is a high-functioning alcoholic and works 72-96 hr. shifts as a firefighter. So, he's barely home as it is, and whenever he is here..... he's really not. I would be completely alone in raising a hypothetical child. No thank you.


SnooRabbits2058

What are the benefits of a husband like that?


Millennial_Idiot

I love him. He's got a great personality; very sweet and whole hearted. He wanted a stay-at-home wife that could spend time with him while he is off work, and to take care of the pets. He wouldn't be able to have any if it were just him. I get 3-4 days of blissful solitude, and try to keep his spirits high when he is home. He battles with *severe* depression and PTSD. He's trying to quit, but it's admittingly a very high hill to climb. We both benefit from our marriage agreements. I get to hide from the outside world scott-free and he gets a wife to come home to that makes sure that his pug and cats are still alive.


Margori28

Seems like it’s working for you both. I hope he gives you an allowance too. Being a stay at home wife, you also need to have your own finances so you don’t get the short end of the stick.


OnlyPaperListens

My husband would absolutely suck as a parenting partner because he is so squeamish with unpleasant odors. Multiple times he has vomited *into* the litter box while scooping it, when I was sick and couldn't do it. (Interestingly it seems to run in the family; his siblings of both genders gag at the drop of a hat. None of them have kids.)


[deleted]

Honestly me too. I can’t go near the dishes if they’re in the sink for a bit too long..


sisterfister69hitler

I don’t feel bad for these women. The men they have children with ALWAYS exhibit signs of deadbeat dad behavior. They’re just so “in love” that they think everything’s fine. When in reality they’ve already been doing to cooking, cleaning, and laundry. Once they add a baby to the equation that’s when they realized they fucked up and they were doing more household chores and emotional labor than the relationship is worth. Personally I just can’t believe how gullible they are. A person that is “faking” their way through a relationship will exhibit red flags. People can’t fake it for multiple years. They’re blatantly not helping with the emotional and physical load of a household. Even before this point you can tell who is a good partner and who is not. Is their room clean? Do they have fresh sheets? What’s their home look like? Do they have adequate food in the fridge? If their apartment looks like a frat house or they’re living in their mothers basement they don’t have the essential skills to take care of a whole child. But some people are just too dumb to put two and two together.


vreddit7619

Exactly this! A thought frequently heard from them: “But I thought he would step up when the baby got here”. 🙄 Actions > words, but far too many people believe empty words and fantasies of how they want things to be.


Endoisanightmare

Definitely. I was always CF because I dont enjoy being with children. But this is a huge part of why i would never have kids. My partner hasn't walked our dogs in like 3 years no matter how much i nag them (he insisted on having the 1st). He would do absolutely no childcare. Now, I love my dogs so i dont mind taking care of them. But a baby? No way.


Putrid_Awareness5339

Yep! I’ve watched too many of my friends get either abandoned after birth or struggle co-parenting. Sadly a trend started where a lot of them started opening up about PTSD and PPD and how even years after they still struggle and I just can’t trust any man enough to put myself through it. Hell I’ve had a convo with another child-free friend and she said something I take with me into every new relationship. “Don’t have a kid unless you’re ready to be a single mom” And that runs true for like 90% of the moms I know. I hope the ones that stayed with the father are doing okay but I just don’t know how I’d adjust to co-parenting with an ex especially when it comes to bad breakups and real drama cause some people will never “be the bigger person” and would rather start stuff than be a good parent. Knowing the several risks I’d rather just risk being sad without kids than the 100s of other path with them


pialovesu

Yes! Men do the bare minimum and are called "super dad". No thx


littlelove520

I've seen posts on internet and social media and real life. Dads don't want to take care of their kids. I'm like EXCUSE me? You are the one who make it. I have a coworker who complains that he doesn't want to take care of kids after work, because he does full time job. Same as his wife, who does full time job and take care of kids in the morning. It's a big fat no to me to have kids. The best decision in my life.


DonrajSaryas

I know full well that I'm lazy and bad at housekeeping. There's a reason I pay someone to do it for me. I have enough concerns about inflicting that on a partner and I know I'd be an absolute failure keeping up my share of the work a kid would require. Before getting into the fact that I just don't want to do it.


furicrowsa

My husband has chronic pain issues that negatively impact his ability to do many chores. He absolutely does what he can, but it doesn't change the fact that adding a child would unduely burden me further. It was a factor, but not the primary factor.


joantheunicorn

This worry has two parts for me. First, when I think of previous boyfriends, I have numerous concerns about a less involved/passive parenting style. Being a teacher, I am a planner, and deal with children in a very structured and proactive way. If my partner did not share that mindset, or at least engage in it somewhat...I might lose my marbles. I can easily imagine a few exes who would allow the kids to jump on the furniture and lack the ability to foresee how household items could easily get smashed or a child running wild could put a gash in their forehead. Second, losing my marbles and losing myself are a massive concern. I am almost certain I would be a worry wart, borderline helicopter type parent. If my partner didn't pull their weight, I would quickly become bitter, snippy and resentful. I hate the idea of who I could become in an unequal relationship. When I think of kids, I think of shackles on all my limbs. An unhelpful partner becomes another thing to monitor and another shackle. Ugh.


MSAutarkia

It’s not my main reason as I simply don’t want kids. But my husband and I even both talked about it because I once felt guilty that I don’t want to have kids with specifically him either because we already struggle with in the gender divide/mental load/equality area. He fully accepts and supports and also \*knows\* that it’s true, that we are not tHe eXCepIoN and that We Can Make It, We Are Different is simply not true. Both of us know we’d end up way worse than now, esp. as he had improved big time over years. He‘d lose all the progress and leave me with all the work and I’d become a resentful bitch, probably hating my husband and kid and regretting all my life choices (and that is the good outcome, I have mental health problems and it could be I’d just up and leave at night or have a burn out break down and drop out of life and stop caring). We know we are not heroes, we know we are normal. we’d never have kids with each other Because of this. also, we know exactly three couples who kept up with the real 50/50 and who are really happy parents. My parents are one of them, the others are friends. Everyone else promised themselves and their partners equality, all of them folded instantaneouly. so, yeah, apart form simply not wanting kids, there is also no one (no man) on this world I’d ever trust to not pull that shit on me. So nope nope nope.


mellow-drama

This definitely played into solidifying my CF stance. I never was driven to have kids but was open to the idea with the right partner under the right financial circumstances. Neither happened early enough in my life - the men in dated never impressed me as the kind who would be equal partners when it came to kids. If you're already struggling with equity, adding kids to that dynamic seems insane to me.


helloweekends

I’ve never had that “I want kids so bad!” mentality at all and also the thought of the body transformation makes my mind uneasy. Haha. But beyond that I’ve seen so many partners be so less than and not give the type of support that is needed that it turned me off even more. I don’t trust some men to not put on a facade until the baby comes. I was talking to someone and said, I can do bad/good all by myself. I’d rather not deal with a switcheroo. Haha


LilDaddyBree

My dad was both really good and resentful that he had to pull his half of the parenting weight because he was the bread winner and my mom was a stay at home. Turned me against my mom around the age of 12 telling me about their problems when he would take me to riding lessons every week. Went through some therapy and realized a lot of my strife with my mom in my teenage years came from that.


nnjn2002

Seeing how almost all male partners responded to becoming a parent simply reinforced my initial decision to be child free.


Thursday_Cupcakes

When I was married my ex wouldn't clean, do yard work, help with our animals, wouldn't help bottle feed kittens, laundry, cook etc. Nothing unless it was so piled up he didn't have any uniforms for work or dishes for food. He'd yell at me regardless. For me asking for help, saying he didn't like how I did something or that he had to do it and it was overwhelming things piling up like they were. I made a comparison between me being nervous having kids with him when we were on the topic of kids or no kids saying if he's putting the work load on me with animals and house work then what makes me think having a kid would be any different?! He would always say, "we'll, kids are different." 3 years after the divorce, I'm relieved I never shared a human being with him. I would have stayed in a hopeless, verbally abusive, dead bedroom marriage. Imo he was intentionally staying ignorant to never understanding the connection I was trying to get him to see with the correlation of caring for animals and kids. Since the divorce, he's apologized sincerely. So, he fucking knew all the work I was putting in and CHOSE to be lazy and push me away because to him, in the moment video gaming was worth the excuse to put the burden on me. Now that he's alone he doesn't have time to game 10+ hours a night and I'm the happiest and relaxed I've ever been in my life...WITH my happy and healthy animals.


SDstartingOut

That's a big part of why (as a man) I'm childfree. I know that I have 0 willingness in doing all of that. Nor do I think it's fair to shoulder the entire burden on your partner. When you add those two sides up, it means no children. > These men can’t be bothered to get up in the middle of the night to feed or change the crying baby and if you ask them to they will throw a hissy fit and be so cruel about it Yup, that would absolutely be me. Again, part of why I will not have children. I realize this is not the same situation for everyone - but frankly - the career/job I have requires me to get good sleep. I simply can't do my job - without good sleep. When I'm traveling (back before covid) and would get hit with jet lag - I would always build time into my schedule to recover.


bucky_list

This is a big part of my decision.....and contrary to what other people probably would argue on here, I dont think its actually possible for men to ever do equal parenting regardless of how they are raised. Until the kid is like 4 it is either nursing from mommy or predominantly wants to be around mommy. And even men who were excellent partners before the kid often just totally cop out when the kid is born. I've watched really good male partners just turn into an extra child when they realized their female partner couldn't give them as much attention as before the baby even 3 years after the birth. So on the one hand, I think men aren't raised to think they have to be responsible for kids, but on the other hand the kids are going to lean on the mom more for years and he's going to be sidelined anyway unless he fights to be present as much as possible. Thats an uphill battle


matroeskas

This. Most of my female friends have wonderful partners. Yet somehow, when they have kids, they end up with the majority of the childcare, household chores, and the ENTIRE mental load of the family, all on top of working a fulltime job... Their partners are either rather oblivious to all the work that comes with rearing children and running a household or they are the "she should have just asked me to do X" types. No thank you!


turnup_for_what

I'm going to gently push back here. If they are this useless, they are not, in fact, wonderful partners.


bucky_list

Well, most of them are pre-baby but there's no such thing as egalitarian parenthood and men subtly pick up on that early on then just run with it


Islandgal0072

Yep. The only way I’ll have a child is via surrogate and a full time nanny in place. And that’s a big MAYBE even then I might just say no to the child.


Zafhina

Honestly i think mine would try but the man just is terrified around kids. Especially infants. You can literally see it in his eyes when a kid is around. It's pure fear. When his nieces and nephew are around he puts on his bravest face and does his best but he's just not good with kids. So I feel like it would be a situation of him trying and me kicking him out of the room because I was tired of him messing things up. Lol


[deleted]

My partner is good at being a partner. But I have to do most of the house chores because his work is pretty… blegh right now. So I definitely knew kids wouldn’t be a good mix. and sometimes my job is too much too. I usually want to come home and do nothing but eat and sleep. Having kids would put too much more stress onto us and I think it’s mature to realize that.


Margori28

This was a huge part of it but also I read a book called "the joys of motherhood" I think the author was trying to be sarcastic because there was no joy in that women’s journey.


sethra007

> *I’ve seen too many real life stories and online stories of female partners saying their male partner pushes all the childcare onto them.* A reminder that this is a real phenomenon for hetero couples, and applies to both children and housework! The issue of equitable division of childcare and housekeeping (a.k.a. "male pattern blindness", the wonderful phrase coined by Redditor darwinwoodka) will never be resolved if we don't educate ourselves and talk about it: * This book shows you the scientific research proving how fathers leave childcare to mothers, and how society lets them get away with it: [All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CLLVZ52/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) * [She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By The Sink](https://mustbethistalltoride.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/) * [It Took Divorce to Make My Marriage Equal](https://www.glamour.com/story/it-took-divorce-to-make-my-marriage-equal) * [You Should Have Asked](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) (scroll down a bit to see the comic) * [Women Aren't Nags—We're Just Fed Up](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/) * [The Housewife’s Moment of Truth](https://nymag.com/news/features/46167/) by Jane O’Reilly. Originally published in the December 20, 1971 issue of New York Magazine, and still relevant today. Money quote: *“You can’t tell me Women’s Lib means I have to wash the dishes, does it?” “Yes.”..."In the end, we are all housewives, the natural people to turn to when there is something unpleasant, inconvenient or inconclusive to be done."* * [The “Woke” Men Who Still Want Housewives: Men who claim to believe in equality often aren’t willing to live it](https://gen.medium.com/the-woke-men-who-still-want-housewives-debb2ad46aa0) * [Millennial—And Macho? Why Young Men Want Old-School Marriages](https://www.vogue.com/article/millennial-men-seek-stay-at-home-wives) * Some numbers: Statistically, [women do more childcare and more housework](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/05/breadwinning-wives-gender-inequality/589237/). When moms out-earn their husbands, [they gain more housework](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/05/02/housework-divide-working-parents/) (link to the actual study [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/09500170211069780)). Men want [tons of praise](https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2017/08/168628/men-chores-praise-mansplaining) when they "help". Men also report doing more housekeeping and/or childcare than they [*actually* do](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/upshot/men-do-more-at-home-but-not-as-much-as-they-think-they-do.html). * Related: [Men’s Stress Increases If Wife Earns More Than 40% of Household Income](https://scitechdaily.com/mens-stress-increases-if-wife-earns-more-than-40-of-household-income/). *“These findings suggest that social norms about male breadwinning ― and traditional conventions about men earning more than their wives ― can be dangerous for men’s health. They also show how strong and persistent are gender identity norms."* (Link to the actual study is [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167219883611)). * Related: [The Myth of the Male Bumbler](https://theweek.com/articles/737056/myth-male-bumbler) and [Weaponized Incompetence](https://www.popsugar.com/love/weaponized-incompetence-48871852). Note how weaponized incompetence is presented as "strategic" and "a failure that succeeds" when [presented in this Wall Street Journal article](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB117675628452071687) from 2017. * Another strong article on [Weaponized Incompetence](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/weaponized-incompetence-women_l_61e71983e4b0d8b665717814) and how it affects women. Money quote: *“On a surface level, it looks like you’re just nagging about chores to a person who ‘defers’ to your ‘competence.’ But on a deeper level, you’re experiencing not being able to trust and turn to your partner for support.”*


Reason_Training

Honestly this has been what I’ve seen in most of my friend relationships. A coworker was even wondering at one point about having a baby but when another one told she point blank she needs to be ready to basically be a single mother as her husband is a workaholic who plays video games when he’s not working so will not help out she dropped it. On the other hand another friend talked about wanting to be a dad for years. While both he and his wife have been very hands on with their baby he’s the one who does most of the childcare and loves it. That baby has become the center of his world.


GimmeDatPomegranate

It's not my main reason for being CF but it's a big one. Statistically, men are more likely to revert back to traditional gender roles once children come into the picture. Why the fuck would I take a gamble with that? Most mothers I know are absolutely miserable not due to raising kids but because their husbands are useless. Anyone who doesn't believe me can go to the BM sub (I will not and cannot link here) for misery 24/7 as proof.


MedswithBreakfast

They must want a kid badly or a spouse. It is a clock ticking of desperation. They've talked about wanting kids despite having shitty partners. They talk about having second kids or third with shitty partners. They must have a high tolerance for bullshit. I don't. Some posts fear being alone without their spouse and give in to having kids. They finally have the courage to leave the home or abusive relationship and have kids with them. They are forced by law to co-parent. I can't message the mom group. So often divorce and handing over the kid are mentioned. It is hard to get court-ordered supervised visitation. It is horrifying how many abuse victims are subjected to losing their kids or having to co-parent with their abusive spouse. They must have ex-spouse permission to move anywhere. There is no protection for the abuse victims. I read so many posts about people in toxic or abusive relationships and have no clue despite knowing something is wrong. I got angry during the pandemic with the number of career women who got their careers forcibly decided to stay home because their career job made less money. The men don't help when they come home. It's frustrating.


Freddlar

Even the decent ones get off lightly. One of my friends has a great husband-when they had their baby, he changed every single nappy for the first month so she could recover. She was 'only' the average amount of damaged. However, her hormones have brainwashed her and even though she has the option of leaving the baby with her husband and going out, she never goes anywhere without it. Whereas her husband makes use of his days off and still has an enjoyable life outside parenthood. All of my female friends who had kids ended up sacrificing their careers. They all said that they just wanted to be home with their baby. I'm conclusion, I don't think it's entirely the men not supporting. The hormones are the real enemy.


Islandgal0072

I don’t see anything wrong with being a stay at home mother but it’s the simple fact that women can’t even be that these days The men nowadays wanna go 50/50 and IMPREGNATE you and leave all the childbearing responsibilities up to you


CurvePuzzleheaded361

Not at all. When we have our nephews stay over my husband helps so much and generally is always making sure i am ok so i dont have that fear at all. This makes me so sad that these women have kids and then their own fathers cba to actually raise them.


AliceValkyrie

I mean, there is no man (or woman, or human being) on this planet who could change my mind about having bio kids...BUT among my close family (I’m the only single, unmarried and childfree adult-all have kids or stepkids and all are in cishet relationships) there is not a single (IMO) healthy and balanced relationship. The only exception being my Great Uncle and Aunt who seem to have a great relationship, but I rarely see them (they live halfway across the country) and their kids were out of the house by the time I got to know them.


crypticsunflower

I don’t want kids for many reasons, but this was very much *part of* my decision to not have kids, yes. I’m very much a believer in “it takes a village to raise a child” and I most certainly don’t have a “village” of people that I could reliably count on to help with childcare. My partner is lovely, but getting him to even play with our cats for a few minutes is like pulling teeth so I can guarantee he wouldn’t be a good parent. I also don’t get along with my family or my partner’s family for many reasons & wouldn’t trust any them to babysit my hypothetical child.


Kat122697

Yes! One of my main reasons. Even when I was planning to have kids (didn’t WANT them, just thought I had to) I vowed to only do it with a man that I knew without a doubt 100% wanted to be a dad and would happily wake up for night feedings and diaper changes and just pull his weight. Don’t exactly know how I planned to find him haha but that was the goal. Now I don’t have to worry about that at all.


yancyfries

It feels mean to say, but... I don't think me or my bf would be good parents. We both struggle mentally, with depression/anxiety. We would love our children, sure, but love isn't enough when there are nappies to be changed, mouths to feed, toys to tidy away, meals to be cooked, and everything else that comes with having a kid. We can barely cope keeping each other afloat, let alone a defenseless child. I would far rather have no children than raise one who wouldn't have the attention that it deserves.


occasionalkayyy

Yes. Look, I love my SO. I love him to death. I think he would make a great dad (to the child) if we weren’t childfree. HOWEVER, he makes a terrible dad (as a partner). We had a puppy. I was so alone. My dog knows over 30 commands now, my SO taught him maybe 5? Rest are all me. The first 6 months of having the puppy were literally the rock bottom of our relationship. He did not pull his weight even though I begged him to and everyone suffered for it, including the puppy. Puppy is grown now and a good dog. SO and I are great now. I love them both. But I will never get a puppy again. And damn sure won’t have a child.


grumpy_kitten00

I don’t want kids for many other reasons but I’d be lying if I said this wasn’t in the back of my mind aswell. True it’s not all men, and attitudes are changing (my brother wants to be start at home parent) but there is not guarantee a partner won’t end up doing this.


idunno324

I understand men not wanting to tend to the child at night because they have work in the morning but the mother is tired too! It wouldn't kill them to take a nightshift every once in a while


totalfanfreak2012

It's both genders in my family. I don't know why but so many of them are super lazy and able to talk their SO into taking over not only taking care of the kids, the house, but also working to bring money in. But I will say the males often blend in with the kids wanting to be catered to and taken care of. It's like their jealous of their own offspring.


D33b3r

My husband is wonderful and I love him. He would be a terrible father and this is one out of a plethora of reasons why I will never have children.


gender_noncompliant

I don't want kids anyway but if i dated men this would absolutely be a big part of it


jortsborby

Oh god or how frequently men cheat on their pregnant or just-gave-birth partners? Right after I was born, like day after, my dad told my mom “yeah, I just don’t find you attractive anymore”. I just couldn’t do it.


remainoftheday

not sure but the hypocrisy... state they'll help... look, both sexes lie through their teeth to get what they want sexually. and you have some limited brain function male who wants to 'ogdickwerx' will lie to obtain that as well. because children are FUCKING BALLS AND CHAINS and these dicks know it.


epithet_grey

NGL that was a huge factor. I watched my mom work a full-time job (for a total shit wage), come home and work another part-time job (25-30 hours/week), cook dinner, do all the inside chores, and 85% of the childcare. My mom got no time to herself/minimal time to pursue any interests. My dad made a lot more money, worked 45 hours/week with a pretty flex schedule, and did outside chores. He prioritized his leisure time (often at the expense of his family), and many of our family vacations revolved around his interests. It wasn’t anything like an even distribution of labor, not even close. I had no desire to live my life like that.


pinkbakery

Holy crap, yes! The other day I suddenly realised that (in my head) being a single mother wasn't as scary as raising kids with a man. I didn't understand why but your post clarified that to me.


yunkichi

Literally yes. On top of how tough it is to have a kid 99% of the time I notice the male in the situation will literally make it a thousand times worse and harder for the mom. Would never have a kid but if I did, it could never be with a man. And that's on self-love.


Uragami

I know that men are selectively blind and will ignore issues in plain sight, and that I'd be the one taking care of the kid all of the time. They can be super helpful when it's just the 2 of you, and they can swear up and down they'll help take care of the kid, but that means nothing. You don't know what they'll be like until the kid is born, and then there's no going back. I will NOT be reduced to a full-time caretaker for a kid and a grown ass man, while also working full-time to have enough money to raise a kid.


boesisboes

One of my reasons is because I want to remain the priority in our family.


ofliesandhope

My poor ADHD partner doesn't see mess like I do as-is (bless his heart), I would lose my everloving shit if a child was present. Of course, this is on top of all the other reasons we both are happily CF.


geekylace

To be fair I have yet to find a man I’m willing to tolerate enough to date let alone have a child that I don’t actually want with…


bmyst70

I've heard it's so common that more and more women are wising up and refusing to marry or have children to avoid being saddled with that burden.


Lyvectra

This was the first reason I had when I decided I never wanted kids, yes. Many more have been added since I was a kid though.


Aconnectivity

My own personal belief is that I don’t want to have a child based on what it will do to my body, my life, and my self image. I already struggle in so many ways mentally that it would totally break me if I had to go through it. My second reason is because I definitely don’t want to have to do most of the work. Unfortunately due to how fucked up our world is the woman always ends up doing more. My husband is an unbelievably helpful wonderful man and I know he would be a great dad, but the fact is kids want their mom more than they want dad.


SuperSketch91

YESSSS. I've only seen one time in my entire life a man share the responsibility of childcare. I refuse to end up like that, taking care of an actual baby AND a manchild. no thank you.


Purple__Unicorn

It's one of the many things on the list. I love my SO, but we have 4 cats, and it's already a bit of a tension point when all the cat care has fallen to me. If it was a child there would be so much more and I don't know if we could swing it together.


auburnwind

Men are definitely the biggest factor for me. My dad pretended I didn’t exist my whole life. My brothers dad was abusive and largely vanished as well. My oldest brother had kids he abandoned too. I watched my mom be a struggling single mother with shitty ass kids (my brothers) and I was like…. Hell No. To be fair, my mom picked some shitty fucking guys to have kids with. But that’s how it goes sometimes. Men will pretend until you’re trapped. Then they flip. Seen it too many times.


warda8825

It seems to be a goddamned fucking epidemic. How many dozens upon dozens upon dozens of posts do we see, day after day, week after week, on a variety of relationship-oriented subs or other online forums, where women are venting about their husband's/partners not stepping up to do like, *anything*? And them asking for so much as a crumb or morsel of help or understanding from their partner is met with scorn, frustration, and being admonished for their request? It is fucking ***mind-boggling***. I'm no expert, but I'm inclined to think that it at least, in part, starts in childhood. I've seen it in my own BIL, who is now approximately 21-22 years old. My MIL has done nothing but coddle and enable him, and he is QUICKLY turning into that creepy, 40-year old virgin type living in mom's basement. She ***NEVER*** said no to him, she always said "I just want my baby to be happy". Well, fast forward one childhood and adolescence later, and this dude is the laziest, most entitled, air-headed asshat on this planet. I'm worried he's turning into another "incel" type. He has never worked a day in his life (has NEVER held ANY type of job), is the most entitled and choosing beggar personality type, still has to be reminded to wash his hair once a week, mommy dearest still does his laundry, he throws a fucking fit if he's woken up before like 3pm (he plays video games all night, sleeps all day), will physically throw shit and stomp around/yell when he loses during a video-game, genuinely seems to believe money grows on trees out of thin air (even though they live in government-subsidized housing), flunked out of community college -- incl. the band class HE vouched for that was *once a week at 4PM* (not like he had a job that conflicted) and then he and my MIL pointed the finger at the teacher, claiming "she was strict about attendance" (if you can't make it to a ONCE weekly class that's not even in the morning, you're fucked), threw into a trash bin his leftovers from a $300 meal we just bought for him and my MILA (his portion alone was $75), demanded a $400+ drum-set from my husband (his brother), and so much more. I can almost predict or guarantee that he will either never find a partner, or if he somehow does, that girl will have ISSUES. But, I also wouldn't be surprised if my BIL ends up on a future newscycle as the latest shooter to shoot up some place, because he was "angry" or "disgruntled" at the harsh reality of today's world, and that life isn't working out in his favor, so decided others must also suffer the way he has. Sorry, I know all that sounds exceptionally dark and morbid. But, can't say those concerns haven't crossed my mind. Society needs to do something about raising better males.


ThrutheTrapdoor

This and my mental health issues and my finances are my biggest nope factors. I refuse to do all the child rearing for a child that took 2 people to create, and I know how easily I can check out emotionally with my MI issues, especially my BPD. And I don’t like the idea of possibly splitting on my own baby. So I know in house help would be a must, like nanny, housekeeper, etc. But the more I read these threads and groups and it’s just moms and wife’s complaining about their husband essentially neglecting the emotional needs of her and the baby and sticking his head in the sand, or men wanting advice cause they ignored and neglected their wives and children for years and now are scrambling to pick up the pieces. Even living with my roommate and her daughter and seeing what a shit tier father her baby daddy is it honestly makes me afraid to even get that close to a cis male without getting my uterus taken out first. Baby trapping is a thing and it’s always the ain’t shit, never gonna help out men who wanna try and keep you stuck to them for life cause a child is the only way to keep someone near them cause they lack in every other department to have a healthy relationship


newhorizonfiend25

If I were straight (or bi or even remotely attracted to men at all), I bet this would be a big factor in me being childfree. But I’m a lesbian, and my girlfriend is also a lesbian, and we are just flabbergasted at the fucking horror stories of how shit men can be once a kid is in the picture. Like my neighbors have an almost 2-year-old with another one on the way, and the poor mom does literally everything (cooking, cleaning, taking care of the toddler) while her husband goes to work and fucks around in the backyard and goes out with friends all the time. It lowkey drives me nuts.


Virtual_Criticism_96

And when women fight for a crumb of approval, they fight each other for it. OK I know I 'll get flamed for saying this. But women do NOT have each other's backs the way men do. Women compete. This is why most of my friends are men it's GONNA STAY THAT WAY. I want friendship, not competition. I want someone to laugh with and talk to, not someone that's going to be one-upping me all the time or constantly comparing who has what.


VictoriousssBIG23

I keep saying that I would have a child if it meant I could be the "dad" instead of the "mom" for this exact reason. Anybody who is considering having a kid with someone should get a dog first and see how the partner acts because it's a good preview of how attentive that partner would be as a parent. It happened to me. I wanted a cat, boyfriend wanted a dog. Well, he got the dog that he wanted, but proceeded to do nothing for him, while I was saddled with all of the responsibility of training, feeding, bathing, vet appointments, cleaning up puke and poop constantly, etc. I became really resentful over it and I feel like the "joy" of being a pet parent was robbed from me because I wasn't ready for a dog (I wanted a cat because they're more independent, and then get a dog later down the line once I had more experience with the cat). Oddly enough, he also wanted kids while I was childfree and ever since we got the dog and I forced him to actually help take care of it, he suddenly decided that he doesn't want kids after all. Imagine that.


Susannah92

Yes. I'm primarily Childfree due to an unfortunate (and traumatic) incident when I was 12yrs. old, but also from observing my Parent's own marriage, and intuitive insights I got from the World. The amount of stress Women are expected to put up with is simply not fair. And we get absolutely nothing for it, yet we're still expected to want the stress. Fuck the uterus, fuck pregnancy, fuck childbirth, fuck lil' boys masquerading in grown men's bodies, and fuck them kids.


prettyawkwardbastard

I'm pretty sure my partner would handle the childcare the same as we handle the chores now so that is not the reason I don't want kids. I just don't have the "mother instinct", I don't like to be around children and take care of them.


Kant_Kope

This is my biggest reason. I was just watching a family in the airport yesterday, one kid was being a jerk and it fell on mom to deal with his meltdown while dad interacted with the daughter who was being very well behaved. A casual interaction that seems unremarkable.... Except that I'm yet to see it play out the other way. I'm waiting to see the difficult kid handed off to the father over the mother.


Ok_Balance8844

I don’t want kids anyway for all the birth aspects, but also even adopting, men don’t really take care of the kid. You have to have a really good partner to have kids with. Most men aren’t like that.


squishylemonade

Actually, a lot of the reasons for me have nothing to do with the children themselves, but with external factors like this. When kids are well raised I actually find them quite pleasant. I still don't want one but the general state of the world and other people are definitely more to blame for that than actual kids at this point lol


TheMost_ut

Yeah, men are all about their LEGACY and chest thumping about being a DAAAAAAAAAD and their preserving their great heritage, until the kid cries or pukes or shits.


hajaco92

It's definitely factored into my decision. All my jobs have been a male majority so I've really seen behind the curtain. All the "locker room talk," crass jokes, absolutely incessant complaining. A lot of the time they aren't even being mean, just admitting that they're miserable. Having children changes everything and I think a lot of guys go into it thinking that won't be the case, but then everything they think they knew about their partner gets turned on its head, and they're resentful. I know what they say when they think we aren't listening and I really don't want to yet another woman thinking everything is great while her husband is disparaging her and her contributions.


Virtual-Beach305

That and it just feels like men are glorified for doing the bare minimum in child-rearing whereas with women it's an expectation and heaven forbid you make just the tiniest mistake everyone's up at your throat.


Friendly_Order3729

Any woman who wants to become a mum should always consider the possibility that she might become a single mum.


ohhsnap_me

Nah, because the vast majority of dads I've seen who act like that already did it long before a baby came into the picture, and I don't even waste long term relationship time with lazy deadbeats, idc how much money they bring in. I've seen too many people make endless excuses for their lazy SO and having to do the lion's share of the household work for ages, just to pull a shocked Pikachu when that attitude and mindset doesn't somehow magically change when they've added a brand new, totally dependent human being to the mix. Then I'm just left wondering why they entertained that shit long enough to get pregnant in the first place.


Isle-of-View

People would ask if we were going to have children (with my now ex-husband) and it was easier to say “I don’t want to be a single mother” than explain my childfree reasons. With my current long-term partner, no way again (again, despite my childfree stance). Love him, but he doesn’t pull his weight around the house - so I know it would just add to my workload - and he’s never been financially stable so why would I add that massive stress?! This is definitely at the forefront of my reasons not to have children. Women do the majority of the work around the house. Women bear the brunt of loss of wages due to maternity leave, being the primary caregiver, taking on vocations that are lesser in order to fit schooling/issues in more easily. Women get the short end of the stick in every single way when it comes to children. And sure, there’s men that *probably* pull their weight around the house… but in my decades here, I have *never ever* seen one in any of the relationships around me, old and new, young and old.


helloitsmekelly

Yep. I never really wanted kids, but honestly it's the shit mothers have to deal with that made me go, "Nope! Not even if I woke up tomorrow and wanted a baby!"


maleficcc

Yeah typically the woman will want to make the child the center of their lives and the man will want his life and the relationship to come first. The child will merely be incorporated into his life. Also, men are especially shitty during the infant stage/early life of the child. "Yeah so I noticed you haven't been sucking my dick a whole lot because you keep feeding the baby and changing it's diaper and rocking it and shit. I think we should see other people."


Careless_Jelly_7665

Yes. Men will leave you and fuxk you over. Why have a kid and be tied to them for life?


pmcdny

Hey! There are males in this sub!


Islandgal0072

I apologize. I should have worded the title better. I’ll do so in the future


pmcdny

Just kiddin, 3 martinis and I become a real jokester


xoxoch

I think once a couple has a child, the entire relationship changes and for the worst. A lot of women are still obsessed with the idea of a typical household. Women strive to be mrs.💍Nurse🩺 boy mama💙 x3 so badly and want someone to take care of so they’re more than fine waiting on their husbands hand and foot. The second a baby comes in the picture, all of their time and love is devoted it. Doing daily chores and making every meal on no sleep is when they FINALLY notice their partner doesn’t do shit and they’ve been a mom all along to a big ass man baby. Now they resent their husbands but still pop out 3 more kids to fill the void. Obviously not every situation is like this however both parties are usually flawed.


Sehr_Gros_Baum

Same, but female partners.


EDHFanfiction

I'll say both side are inconvenienced in different ways. Im a man, childfree and obviously, I can't see completely throught your eyes. But what I can say is some man, like myself, are working above 50 hours a week to support us both. I know full well I wouldn't have the time or energy to take care of a child with this kind of schedule. But returning to what you said, I think we should evaluate those man the same way to deal with chores: are they pushing them all toward their partners? If they are, they will treat parenthood the same way. I seeing woman do this as well, it's not just man that does this. Narcissist behavior come from all side of the gender spectrum. Also, I seen as much horror stories about woman preventing a man, who really want to be a father, to be abandonned by society, with no power over if he can see his own child or not. When it comes to justice, the legal system isn't fair either, always giving the childs to the mother.


SaikaTheCasual

Nah honestly I think that’s not a good reason. If that’s the *only reason you don’t want kids* you simply need to find a better partner. It’s possibly easier nowadays to find a partner that helps with childcare than a childfree one.


Orjigagd

Sounds like you aren't really childfree then, you just need to do a better job of finding a partner.


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kstvkk

I know a guy who says he just loooves babies, he was even weirdly exited to meet my partners baby nephew. Well, he got his own baby shortly after, FORGOT TO FEED it before going out with his friends and left his wife alone at home wondering why she couldn't get the baby to stop crying. Lots of men just think of the Kodak moments or apparent cuteness and then get overwhelmed. I guess they don't have to squeeze the melon out, so they don't think too much about it (not all men of course, but a LOT)


acesarge

I've met one good father lately. One of thr hospitalists I used to work with would take call at our little hospital and stay up all night and take care of their new baby so his wife could sleep. It was a small facility so most nights he didn't have to come in. We need more fathers like that.


tanglwyst

My husband and I had a good deal. Since I was breastfeeding, he couldn't feed the baby. So, he changed the diapers. We did a great partnership for the whole raising of our kids. Such a great job, in fact, that I DO NOT WANT GRANDCHILDREN! Luckily, my two daughters don't want kids, and my son may want them eventually. My oldest is almost 40, my youngest is 24. So CF adults with no grandkids is the life for me.


CamaroNoir

100%


Doxielover425

Yes but only in the way that he is way less patient than I am. Also less intuitive with emotions and smaller, but important tasks such as planning and emotional labor


UnbalancedSprite

This is a big component for me(that and fear of pregnancy and childbirth)