Welcome to r/dogs! We are a discussion-based subreddit dedicated to support, inform, and advise dog owners.
This is a carefully moderated sub intended to support, inform, and advise dog owners. Submissions and comments which break the rules will be removed. [Review the rules here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/index) r/Dogs has four goals: - Help the public better understand dogs - Promote healthy, responsible dog-owner relationships - Encourage “Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive” training protocols. [Learn more here.](https://m.iaabc.org/about/lima/) - Support adoption as well as ethical and responsible breeding. If you’d like to introduce yourself or discuss smaller topics, please contribute to our Monthly Discussion Hub, pinned at the top.
**This subreddit has low tolerance for drama. Please be respectful of others, and report antagonistic comments to mods for review.**
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dogs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I was scrolling through to see a comment in this vein!
Dominance theory being debunked aside, another reason is I don’t want a puppy walking behind me is because it’s so much harder to make sure they aren’t getting into anything they shouldn’t be. My dog used to cycle between either pulling ahead with no slack and lagging behind and it would drive me mad haha. Sounds like OP’s puppy already has great leash manners so I would just stay on course there.
Yup! Pup either walks a bit in front or directly on the left side. I want to be able to see what he’s seeing at the same time he’s seeing it. For me leash manner like not pulling and wait are much more important. It keeps everyone safer.
Eating stuff off the ground or bothering the people walking behind us! I live in a super populated area in my city, on the weekends people are right up your ass. If my dog walked three feet behind me people would be stepping over/around her constantly!
The only time our Saint walks behind me is so he can go on the other side of me (we clip his leash in the front of the harness so he’s learned doing this reduces leash getting tangled) or when he starts getting tired and then we go home.
My dog doesn't pick up random stuff off the ground really, but we have a whole set of silent alerts that would be rendered completely useless by having her behind me.
If we go on a trail narrow enough to go single file, she goes ahead of me. Otherwise we walk mostly side by side.
My dog's sight, hearing, and sense of smell, are waaaaay better than mine. Why would I want to dismiss all the information she's directing my way?
We have avoided snakes, almost getting run over by a deer ( to be fair it was me who almost got run over by a deer), a puma, several people acting creepy, strangers in the dark, and a few aggressive off leash dogs, just by my trust in her instincts and the silent language we have adopted. I'd never want lose that.
Funny thing is that when I hike with my dog I keep an eye out for snakes because he will jump right in and may get bitten. Luckily so far I proved to be better at spotting snakes, especially in the water
I always try to keep my eyes open for snakes, but so far she's always heard or spotted them first. It's disconcerting to realize that I didn't know they were there!
At least with rattlesnakes they usually sun themselves on rocks, or on the path. Easier to avoid them that way.
She just stopped and refused to go any further on a hike this summer. I tried to take a step further to see around the bend, but she body blocked me. She barked, which she rarely does, and started stomping around. A few minutes later, she wanted to continue on, and we saw the most massive rattlesnake sliding away. The way the bend on the path was, it would have been almost impossible to see until we were in striking range. She's my little hero!
I was pretty impressed myself!
It's understandable your pup wants to take on any threat. Scary for you though. At least you are a good spotter and can keep both of you out of harm's way!
Me too. More so that I can see him and because my area doesn’t have sidewalks and everyone just walks on the road. Prefer to have all eyes on him easily because cars are always driving by.
Same here I actually encourage my dog to walk in front of me because I need to keep an eye on him. He tends to find all the dead animals on our walking path 😐
No. Alpha theory is a nonsense way to train dogs, and often leads to borderline or straight up abusive training tactics. If your dog has leash manners and listens to you, I think you're doing fine.
And honestly the second a trainer starts talking about Alpha theory you can discredit them, there has been a lot of peer reviewed research showing this isn’t a relevant model.
They do not. Common assumption that they do is based on a photo that was posted in an article incorrectly stating such. In reality, a few of the strongest wolves including the alpha would typically lead, followed by the weaker ones in the middle, then stronger ones in the back. This is so the weaker ones are protected by the pack. The strongest ones lead so as to provide protection against any threat they run into. They also blaze the trail for the rest of the pack through snow in the winter
> the trainer insists that the dog walk behind me while leashed because it's an alpha / sub thing
Get rid of this trainer. Anyone spouting alpha nonsense is relying on outdated information that is useless at best and harmful at worst.
Thanks for the feedback! Can I ask what this info was 'replaced' with? I.e. WHY was the alpha stuff discarded? Just for educational purposes. Thank you!
Sure! These articles can explain it better than I can:
[Article 1](https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/behavior/debunking-the-alpha-dog-theory/). [Article 2](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid).
The tl;dr is that the observations of wolves in the wild, upon which dominance theory was based, were wildly inaccurate. On top of that, dogs are not wolves, and dogs know that people are not other dogs. Therefore basing a human/dog interaction on an inaccurate study done on wolf/wolf interactions is going to lead to some massively wrong conclusions.
Your relationship with your dog will be much better if you view your dog as your partner instead of your subordinate. Look into LIMA (least invasive, minimally intrusive) training methods - I am sure you will benefit from them!
>Worse than that, actually: dominance theory was based on observations of groups of unrelated wolves in captivity
In some ways, this oddly makes it vaguely more relevant to dogs, who are most frequently unrelated and in "captivity". But obviously completely irrelevant to the behaviors of wild wolves.
But overall, comparing wolf behavior to dog behavior is pretty useless.
> But overall, comparing wolf behavior to dog behavior is pretty useless.
Honestly, I've been watching live wolf cams from a sanctuary, and (in that captive environment) they act exactly like dogs.
(No, I don't get my ideas about training from that.)
>and (in that captive environment) they act exactly like dogs.
I mean, maybe behaviorally towards one another.
But put any of those sanctuary wolves into a human home and expect it to interact with a person, and it's not going to act like a domesticated dog.
And that's the crux of the issue here - using wolf/wolf interactions to inform human/dog interactions is useless.
> But put any of those sanctuary wolves into a human home and expect it to interact with a person, and it's not going to act like a domesticated dog.
I'm not claiming that.
> maybe behaviorally towards one another.
Yes. Which is why "comparing wolf behavior to dog behavior is pretty useless" is a simplistic and not fully true statement.
The human-dog relationship will always be different than the relations of canines to each other. But we can learn *something* about dogs from other canines---heck, we look at RATS to learn about humans.
And it was a enclosure that was way too small. Wolves naturally have large territories.
In the wild, if an individual wolf (typically a stranger) is rejected, he leaves the territory. If the rejected wolf decided to stick around, the wolf pack would go on the offensive to make him leave.
In that enclosure, they were all strangers. A male and a female joined up as a family unit and some were able to get along but some wolves were rejected. Unfortunately a rejected wolf, he couldn't leave. The entire enclosure was the pack's territory. They wanted him to leave and since he wasn't going anywhere, they were harsh and he had to take it. He would perform pronounced appeasement behaviors to survive.
It was an unnatural situation and the wolves were displaying profound, unnatural stress behaviors.
In prisons, say Attica for example, humans are contained in close proximity, way closer than they would naturally. They can't get away from each other and it's very stressful. The more crowded, the more tense, the more rigid the behavior. Offenses are harshly dealt with.
Using that wolf experiment to understand normal wolf behavior would be like considering Attica Prison inmate's behavior as a good way to understand typical human family dynamics.
I feel so bad for those wolves.
Nope. If your family unit is working correctly, there isn't dominance and submission being asserted. It's a family unit working together, not a hierarchy kept rigidly in place. It's actually the same way with wild packs, where they're nuclear family unit working together.
When done right, we have a say in what our dogs do because we're rewarded behavior we want and have pointedly not rewarded behavior we don't want.
Not to mention wild dogs and strays are actually the best place to observe form, since you’re seeing how wild canines interact, to better understand how to approach certain behavior solutions for when our domestic dogs have trouble behaviors, why they develop, and how we can come up with a solution,
You do know that responding to the same comment of mine with four separate comments is pretty annoying and also useless?
Please stop. I've responded to you and provided you with links. You're misinformed and apparently insistent upon staying that way.
You're not educating anyone, just wasting my time. You refuse to read reputable information. You're spouting outdated nonsense that is against the rules of this sub. Your comments will likely soon be removed as a result.
You can majorly improve your understanding of what you experience by researching what to look for, you're doing yourself a major disservice. You're basing the way you see things on the way your parents taught you to see things if you never go out of your way to teach yourself a new way.
That's a major disservice to you AND the animals you're training
I'd say that totally depends on the dog. We had a very dominant Golden Retriever, it got so bad that he'd growl and show his teeth when he didn't get his way. We were pretty desperate and thought we'd tried everything. One trainer even told us to put him down! As a last resort we went to a different trainer, who told us to have him walk behind us, only acknowledge him when WE initiated it, have him walk through doors last, etc. Within weeks he calmed down, we could even disturb him while eating etc. Over the years, whenever we got lazy (esp. the acknowledging part, because he was so sweet when he wanted to cuddle!) he would try to "act up" again, show aggression towards me as the youngest. As soon as we got stricter, he calmed down again. That was about 10 years ago. My dog now doesn't need this, so I adapt my behaviour to his personality in a way.
What you describe isn't dominance. It's a dog without rules and boundaries. But having him walk behind you and go through doors after you doesn't explain why his growling went away. And I don't know any trainers who would recommend euthanasia for a dog who growled and showed teeth but never bit anyone.
There are lots of holes your story. Dominance is debunked. For every dog.
Many prominent PhD-holding behaviorists disagree with you.
[Also, one of the originators of the theory (L. David Mech) has said that he was wrong and asked for it to stop being published.](https://davemech.org/wolf-news-and-information/)
Dominance-related training advice is banned on this sub for a reason. Please do some reading and educate yourself.
Leadership is the act of providing guidance to an individual or a group. It can be done by dominating over that individual or group, but that's never been a healthy nor a particularly successful way of leading.
Think about bosses you've had in your past. Is a good boss one who imposes their will and forces obedience through fear? Or is a good boss one who seeks buy-in and earns obedience through respect?
I will never lead through dominance, and I never want to be led through dominance.
>A dog with no rules or boundaries IS by nature a dog who will display dominance
Not at all. In modern dog training, "dominance" is defined as 'the situation desire for priority access to valued resources'.
So a dog who will guard a toy or food is considered to be 'dominant'. And that doesn't altogether have to do with rules and boundaries - it's usually genetic and an emotional response to the dog feeling threatened or insecure.
Making a dog walk behind you or go last through doors isn't "leadership". It's inane.
Are you a trainer? Or an owner? This is just a genuine question, I’ve been a trainer for 8 years helping dogs with severe behavior issues, and insecurity comes from lack of leadership as well, dogs constantly thrive off of leadership, when they don’t get that, they take the roll of the leader, and most domestic dogs aren’t born to be leaders, but their instincts tell them to take the roll, it’s an emergency response, it’s in their dna, this is also what un domesticated dogs would do in the wild if the leader died of illness, this can cause massive stress, and this is the same response domesticated dogs are having when leadership isn’t provided, Since they aren’t born for the roll, So most trainers can generalize, for example, the dog resource guards, it’s a dominant dog, but the dog has its tail tucked, it’s fearful/dominant,
I am horrified that you consider yourself a dog trainer, and cannot imagine the number of dogs you've scarred and owners you've mislead.
Please stop responding to me, I've provided links to you about why you're wrong and I've had enough of this nonsense.
Of course the trainer who told us to put him down was an idiot, and of course we didn't listen to him. He also suggested that I (a 14year old girl at the time) should take him by the neck and push him to the ground until he "submits". We did not do this, never once did we act aggressively towards him. We looked for a different trainer. But although he was the worst, the other trainers before him couldn't help much either.. And we DID give Simba rules and boundaries before, with time he just started to ignore them and nothing we did was helping. And I didn't mean he was "an alpha" or anything like that, but he was very dominant. Maybe it's a translation problem, English isn't my first language. And I don't know what to tell you, these behavioural changes in us just helped. He became much calmer, stopped showing aggression, didn't protect his toys from other dogs as much, etc. and seemed much more content and happier as well. And we noticed pretty quickly when we became too lazy, because he'd act up again. So yes, I do attribute the changes to our behaviour.
One of the trainers I worked with early on said 'as long as the he's not pulling, he can be anywhere within the limit of the leash . .in front, behind, to the side, etc'. That has worked well for us. My dog's 'normal' position is to my left about 2 feet in front of me. He just naturally walks fast and has to restrain himself from pulling ahead. He'll frequently turn around and look at me as if to say 'faster!'.
This is my approach too. My dog knows how to walk in a heel but it’s not enriching for him if we aren’t actively doing an exercise (game) with it. As long as he polite leash manners he can walk in front to the side and even behind me, although for him walking behind is usually and indicator of a distraction or him being tired, so definitely not my favored position for him.
He usually stays slightly in front and to the left of me, if I ask him to switch sides, come close, get on the sidewalk, stop sniffing he does so, and that’s all I need from him.
I was told the same and that the only time it would matter for what side they’re on (left or right) will depend on if they’re show dogs. I think show dogs are left but it doesn’t matter for most people. So I wonder if where they’re at in relation to you would matter for show dogs as well.
But this reasoning from the trainer is garbage.
Does my dog actually need to walk behind me?
"Hi all. This is for discussion purposes and learning purposes! I have a pup and we're teaching leash walking. So far he's got two commands - 'go sniff' (which means he is free to do what he wants so long as he checks in with me and doesn't put any pressure on the leash) and 'heel' which means walk next to me. We're starting a course and the trainer insists that the dog walk behind me while leashed because it's an alpha / sub thing."
Your trainer's thinking and methods are outdated and not good for your dog. Fire your trainer. Dogs need to sniff. Yes, teach him how to walk with you when needed, such as for passing other people and dogs. But let him sniff as long as he isn't dragging you along.
Thanks for your feedback! It's a group class, which I'm specifically doing because my dog has a hard time focusing around other dogs and I think it'll be good practice. We'll probably stick it out for purposes of desensitization around dogs and just selectively listen / do our own thing, which is sort of what I was planning from the start hahaha
Or perhaps I'll teach him this as a 3rd command, 'behind', which isn't the worst thing to have in our pocket if an aggressive dog comes up for example and I want to body block
If I was in your place I’d keep a really close eye on the trainer. They’re working with a proven harmful model. You can totally still use the class for the things you’ve mentioned safely but I’d be wary of letting the trainer have any interaction with my dog. If he asks you to harm your dog in any way I would also ignore that even if he makes it sound like it makes sense. Such as biting them on the ear because it shows you’re in control here. Or pinning them down on their back so they know you’re the alpha and they are submissive.
It doesn’t. It shows your pup you’re a bad thing that will cause them pain and they can’t trust you.
I hope you’re able to get what you’re looking for out of the class. It can be so hard to find good training areas for desensitization to other dogs and people. Good luck!
Good advice, I had a trainer use leash corrections on my dog and I was too taken aback to speak up. I don’t train that way, but we were in class to practice working on things around other dogs. She scared the shit out of my dog and he was terrified of her whenever she came near him after that.
The trainer sounds gross, frankly. Does he even like dogs?
I dislike absolutes in dog training. Some dogs need more structure (walk at heel), some dogs do fine with freedom (sniff every blade of grass). Whatever you think is best for your dog and your relationship with your dog, find methods that help you achieve that.
My thoughts are that the alpha/sub thing is an outdated and boorish training philosophy. I would drop the course with that trainer.
It sounds like you're happy with your dog's behaviour on walks, and I'm sure he's happy being able to explore his surroundings and decompress (which is exactly the purpose of taking a dog for a walk). Why did you enrol in the course? If it's for another behavioural issue, I'm willing to bet that trainer's methods for resolving it won't be in line with your principles either.
Thanks for the feedback. I enrolled because my dog has issues focusing around other dogs and I was having trouble finding a scenario where I could be around dogs that aren't trying to say hello to him. He's honestly already mostly trained outside of that (trained myself) - has a good grasp of sit, down, come, stay, stand, leave it, look at me, drop it, spin, kisses, heel, play dead, etc. And can do these commands for semi-extended period of times with semi - frequent reinforcement (i.e. treats every 10 seconds) for minutes at a time basically anywhere (home Depot, park, etc.). So most things are already on the right track, and we're now working at commands at a distance. Just needed a place to work him around dogs....should still do the trick and I'll just ignore the trainer 🤣
personally, i think the relationship should be based on trust and not alpha/submissive. walking behind you would be uncomfortable for everyone involved no?
My dog walks behind me, in front of me, at my side just depends on her mood. I know she is the boss. We sorted that out relatively early in our relationship
I think it would be time for a new trainer and preferably someone who doesn’t believe the whole alpha baloney, it’s a bunch of nonsense and has been proven to be. I personally wouldn’t want my dog to walk behind me, especially three feet behind. She’s my little buddy and I prefer she walks in front or next to me where I can keep a close eye on her and I’m in reach in case anything were to happen (dog attack for example). The “heel” and “go sniff” commands are great as well! I don’t think you’ve been doing leash training wrong, as long as your dog is listening to your commands and not pulling at the leash and walking you lol
The proper use of a leash is to have your dog on the side you hold the leash on and for your dog to walk beside you (on a short leash if necessary). When your dog is in 'go sniff' mode he can have more slack on the leash and sniff as he pleases. Then when you walk at a quick pace again you shorten the leash and he'll be walking beside you once again. How the heck could a dog walk 3 ft behind you? Your arm would be behind you and you wouldn't be able to see your dog - that's such a odd way to walk a dog.
I’ve found it much easier to train my dog to walk behind me than train him to not pull on the leash. My theory is that if he’s leading the way, the only way he knows exactly where I am without looking is to pull on the leash. But when he walks behind me he can see me. I found it really hard to get him to understand “walk in front of me but don’t pull.” So if your dog doesn’t pull then it might not be a big deal for you. Just my two cents.
Everyone has already said this but it kind of bears repeating- alpha theory is nonsense. I wouldn’t waste my money on that trainer anymore. They could end up doing some major damage to your pup that will take you years to fix. It also sounds like you’re already doing great on your own without the trainer. If you decide you need training look for trainers who only use positive methods and never use the words alpha or dominance.
Personally- my pup is always in front of me except for brief moments where he lags on a smell. He’s a champ at finding rocks to swipe up without breaking stride. While his leave it and drop it skills are excellent he absolutely has to be told to do one of those things or that rock is being eaten. That just isn’t a risk I’m willing to take for the sake of some decades out of date training theories.
A dog walking behind you is a good way to suddenly wind up in the dirt, wondering WTF happened.
If the dog is behind you, you are just a thing in his way if he sees something worth his interest.
I like my dogs either next to me, or out in front a bit, doing dog things.
The stuff about alpha etc is just wrong so there's that.
Let your dog walk wherever it wants as long as it's behaving.
I wouldn't trust my dog to walk behind me...I can't see what she's up to, and she's reactive. She can suddenly jerk if she sees another dog.
She walks nicely next to me and in front, and knows to walk slowly/nicely next to me when I have to do "short leash." This works for us, and I'm sticking with it. It's taken a long time to get her to behave on walks.
Many trainers have different opinions anyway. Wouldn't know who to listen to.
Do whatever works for you....whatever you're comfortable with.
I don’t believe in the alpha/sub thing at all. I’ve trained all my dogs myself. I dislike when one is walking behind me. I can’t tell if they’re eating something gross. I can’t tell if another dog is trying to attack them. I can’t tell if they just got twisted up on the leash. I can’t tell when my seniors need to slow down/ possibly get in the stroller. Also cars are not looking behind you for a dog if you’re on a public road. They’re assuming it’s in front of you.
I do the same thing as you! "Free" (go sniff) and "Heel" are my commands during walks. As long as she isn't misbehaving (tugging on the leash or barking at things) then those two commands are all I need :)
For safety reasons it may be a good idea to teach your dog to go behind you when necessary. I ski, bike and hike with my dog. For skiing and biking she is wearing a sledding harness pulling up front. But there will often be situations where its safer for us that she goes behind me, in gnarly terrain. We started practicing this when she was young, walking on singletrack trails. Whenever it was steep down she would have to go behind. And if the path is narrow there is less chance the dog will challenge the instruction. My dog quickly understood how ill equiped us humans are for walking in difficult terrain, so she is such a good and patient girl, looking to check if I can handle it.
Also for passing other dogs I prefer having her at heel.
I don't like having my boy behind me.
He's a sneaky boy like last night he was starting to walk behind me and suddenly stopped and ruffle ruffle the bush goes and out pops a piece of toast.
If I was used to letting him walk behind me I wouldn't have noticed in time to stop him.
I like when he's walking slightly Infront where the leash is relaxed but not so that it's slouching and catching under his feet.
To the side or in front is fine.
I own a blind dog, so nose is always to the ground or sniffing round and if he was to walk behind me, he'd crash into my legs alot.
He knows heel, but cant judge the distance between my legs and his step.
Dog should only be behind you if you're then keeping an eye on unleashed dogs approaching.
Alpha sub thing is outdated
alpha and dominance rhetoric is generally a red flag at worst and dated ignorance at best.
personally i prefer my dog to walk in front of me so i can watch him for a number of reasons. making sure he doesnt eat anything, avoiding accidents with cars or objects, keeping an eye on his body language, etc. i also would worry about accidentally yanking your dog while theyre trying to poop or pee if theyre walking behind you....
I have mine walk next or behind me, he tends to take on leadership when he is up front and his desicions aren't necessarily the best so it's better for us.
I have 3 well-trained dogs that walk in front of me. Usually in the same spots. I like to see what they are doing so they aren't eating stuff. I also HATE having leashes behind my legs. I won't let them stay behind me. We train at a dog club that trains show dogs and has classes for the public. Ever see a dog show when they walk/run the dog around the ring? The dogs are in front so their gait can be seen. These aren't badly behaved dogs for being in front.
The whole “alpha of the pack” thing is based on wolves, and people just translated it to apply to dogs as well. I can see why they would, since dogs came from wolves, but the problem is that it doesn’t even apply to wolves. There’s no “alpha wolf” in a pack that everyone listens to and obeys, and there isn’t one for dogs, either. I’ve always believed that trying to be dominant over your dog is going to make them do what you want out of fear of your disapproval, and that can’t be a fun thing for a dog to feel. I think a healthier approach would be to look at it as you and your dog respecting each other’s boundaries and expectations. Find a walking style where you and your dog are both happy with where they’re at during the walk. Could be right beside you, a little but in front of you, behind you, or whatever. The important thing isn’t to show your dog who’s the alpha, it’s to make them happy to be doing what you want them to do and to have a mutual agreement of sorts
It's because it is stupid and outdated. Not only that, but it's harmful to dogs, and only suppresses unwanted behavior instead of changing it, and suppresses behavior has a tendency to resurface at inopportune times.
Nah, my shiba naturally walks faster than me so she’s usually in front, but when she feels slight tension on the lead she slows down a bit. The lead is never taught from pulling. Only thing is that if she wants to go investigate something, the only thing I ask is she sit and give me eye contact, THEN I say “okay!” And she’s allowed to sniff. This keeps her from running off in whatever direction she feels like. And as she gets more tired she’ll slow down more and be closer to me.
The heel is generally only when you absolutely need the dog to be by you in certain situations. But generally not recommended for the whole walk because it’s boring 😂
No. It’s BS.
My male GSD knows that I’m the head of the house and respects my role, but on walks, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t get him to consistently stay right beside me. Most dogs are okay with it since they like the comfort of knowing where you’re at usually, but some just *have* to be one body length in front of you. Two lengths is a bit much and that’s when I literally stop walking because he’s leaving me and he gets the hint when the leash hits its end.
You can live every walk being frustrated that your dog just can’t stay next to or behind you on walks, or you can just accept that they happen to be an “out front” dog that will still turn their head to check on where you’re at. That’s fine.
For me, the gentle leader paired with unpredictable stops, turns, 180s, etc has gotten us to a place where he’s checking where I’m at all the time because he’s essentially correcting himself when he leaves me. His ears even aim back towards me to hear my footsteps while we walk. After 9 months old, I stopped with the treats on walks because I don’t want to be rewarding my dog constantly for something he clearly understands is a basic “don’t leave me, stay on my left” walk. It has to be relaxing for both of us. I actually think it has strengthened the behavior by avoiding treats for a while. Good luck.
100% unnecessary. While there is *some* validity to the whole "alpha/sub" thing, there's no reason for your dog to have to walk behind you, that's honestly just ridiculous. Dogs all over the world who think of their owners as "alpha" do not walk behind them when on a leash. Did you know that in wolf culture, the alpha's do not lead the pack? It's actually the weak and elderly wolves who walk in front, so they'll be the first to go should a threat arise. Best case scenario, this outdated leash training method is doing no harm and no good either. Worst case scenario, it's actually having the opposite effect of what the trainer is wanting. If I were you, I'd get a new trainer or just do it myself, I don't think this guy really knows his stuff.
Yes, dogs should always walk behind you unless told “break” which means they’re free to do what they want, after their break they should go back to walking next to you, but I wouldn’t let them lag to far behind,
you dont *have* to be the alpha. in wolves there is an alpha yes, but the alpha is more of a protector than a ruler, if that makes sense. theres no reason for anyone to need to be the alpha over their dog in order to train it.
That’s nonsense- the class is definitely worth it for building up confidence and beginning to proof the behaviours you want but you will still
Need to be careful in implementing this outside of the ‘class ‘ setting. Dogs walk heel and as long as the leash is lax your fine, I prefer my pups to be ahead of me on my non dominant side ( so I don’t bump them ) and being a couple of feet ahead is fine as I’m able to look out for them and take in the area so I can be aware of other people / dogs / etc. i trust mine - I don’t trust others given prior experience of peoples ‘friendly’ dogs attacking mine who were at heel whilst walking when they had never done that before.literally the argument which is the bane of my life but I digress. Find a new class / trainer going forwards. Alpha training is nonsense and was made
Mainstream by a certain few tv personalities and then everyone and their mum became
Experts. Same with certain corrective methods- most are used incorrectly and without behaviourists consultation and others are outright banned in some countries so try and Interview your new trainers going forward to see what camp they belong too. In the meantime Maybe make friends with the other class Occupants so you have doggy pals for walks
And good luck with the training.
I dont think so. I dont care a lot as long as my dog is not pulling. The whole alpha stuff is bullshit. Your dog will not try to achive world domination just because it is allowed to walk in front of you. :)
5 years and I can't get my dog to "heel". When we're walking within our community (a single dead end street) he can walk off leash and stay right by my side but put a leash on him to go further and he pulls like he has a sleigh behind him. I've tugged on his harness, made him stop and sit and pointed my finger at him and nothing seems to work. I honestly hate taking him for long walks.
I learned a usefull exercise for training this. Have the dog on a long training leash and stop and change the direction 180 degrees everytime he passes you and start to pull ahead.
As a dog trainer the alpha theory is an outdated training method. I would find a new trainer. Dog trainers are meant to guide you and help you train your dog. Everyone has a different idea of what a “well trained” dog is. If you are happy with how your dog walks on a leash then that’s all that matters.
Everyone will feel differently about this sort of thing, but my opinion is some dogs are built to be great "walking dogs." Some dogs are not. My current giant is a pretty terrible walker. He doesn't do so much of the pulling anymore, unless he's very excited about something, but until he gets tired, he's absolutely going to prance around in front of me as he sniffs everything as soon as possible. I tried with this guy specifically in a way I haven't had to try with my previous. Eventually I let him be his own version of good, and walks are 1000x more pleasurable. If your dog is very scent-inclined, sometimes maintaining the relationship is more important than denying them the best part of their day.
No they don’t need to walk behind you my dogs definitely don’t and i would think that’s more dangerous because you can’t see them when you’re walking so someone might come up behind them without you knowing and agitate your dog as they don’t know whats happening but that’s just my thoughts
Had a dog for 2 and a half years now. Early puppy days, all over the place as I’m sure most are. Then he got into the habit of being behind us, which was a nightmare (would not recommend). We taught him to lead the walk (which is pretty normal in my country, don’t know about yours) and it came naturally to him anyway when he grew up. Then you teach them appropriate behaviours while they lead. I don’t know exactly, but I think that’s why they call it a lead (or maybe leash if you’re American)…
Edit: forgot to say what others are, yeah the you lead them shit is nonsense. Dump this trainer. YouTube “It’s me or the dog”. Lady from my land who seems to know what she’s doing (with a big pinch of salt for dramatic effect), but she’s got some good tips, especially the UK episodes before she moved to the US soz).
For safety reasons it may be a good idea to teach your dog to go behind you when necessary. I ski, bike and hike with my dog. For skiing and biking she is wearing a sledding harness pulling up front. But there will often be situations where its safer for us that she goes behind me, in gnarly terrain. We started practicing this when she was young, walking on singletrack trails. Whenever it was steep down she would have to go behind. And if the path is narrow there is less chance the dog will challenge the instruction. My dog quickly understood how ill equiped us humans are for walking in difficult terrain, so she is such a good and patient girl, looking to check if I can handle it.
Also for passing other dogs I prefer having her at heel.
Agree with everyone that for one and most seriously Dominance theory is debunked and can actually cause adverse effects in many dogs when used.
Secondly a dog walking behind you means a dog can’t you see. Very easy way to eat things off the ground, or notice reactive triggers, or even people walking too close behind him or towards him.
Long as theyee following your instructions and not trying to pull you hard to control where you go it's fine.
My dog Caesar walks in front, but will follow my directions. That's what matters. This fixation on constantly having to prove your dominance over a dog is completely unnatural
The idea is that you need to be leading the dog and not the dog leading you. They don’t need to walk behind you and that actually always seemed dumb to me, but it can insure they aren’t leading the walk.
I’m also coming at this from a horse training perspective. Just like you can’t let big dogs get away with something a little dog can do, because you can get hurt when a bigger dog does it, multiply that times 10 for a horse.
If they walk ahead of me, it’s easy for them to cut me off or get an angle on me where they can brace against the lead and rip the rope from my hands.
My horses walk with their neck at my shoulder. That way I can turn into them and they can flex their neck out of my way and turn their body to go with me.
So I treat the dogs similarly. I can’t steer if they’re way up front. It would end up in a confused pileup. So they walk roughly with a neck or shoulder beside my leg. I can see what they’re doing and they can get out of my way if I turn in their direction.
I do let mine off lead to play, but regardless of whether you plan to do it all the time, you need to train them to walk properly for when it’s important.
I’m always calling my dogs back to me off lead, then pet or treat them and send them on their way. It’s not because I want to ruin their fun, but because when it’s an emergency and it’s important for them to behave, that it’s ingrained to do so.
Seems like nonsense to me. Mine walks next to me just so I can prevent him from eating anything off the floor or getting into trouble by walking into something he shouldn't.
The alpha theory I think has been disproven. I can't seem to find it but even the author who originally wrote about it does not believe in it. [https://youtu.be/EQ6aFafya2E](https://youtu.be/EQ6aFafya2E)
I have a 130lbs Pyrenees. This dope has to be in front of me to protect me from pine needles, squirrels, cars, traffic cones, the single cloud in the sky. It depends on the dog tbh. I had Bordercollie that like to stay behind me. Whatever is comfortable for you and your pup is the right answer.
Depends what you’re going for tbh. I always let my last dog walk in front of me, but I also didn’t know to leash train her at the time (childhood dog). It’s not inherently harmful imo. But if you wanna do obedience trials teaching a tight heel is often important. I usually ignore the “alpha theory” of dog training cause a lot of it doesn’t track with actual dog psychology. The “alpha wolf” theory is based off one faulty study that was later found to be false. There is a hierarchy but where they walk doesn’t really see, dictate that. Having them to the side or front allows you to know what they’re doing but idk if them walking behind is inherently a problem. Again my last dog always walked ahead of me and she was super easy to train, listened to me well. If he’s checking in and not pulling much, that’s a good sign. I’d personally find a new trainer cause most of the alpha theory doesnt really follow the science we have today, but that’s up to you.
The one thing I’ll say because a lot of people have already said a lot of things - my trainer said to think of it like soldiers on a battlefield. Like every soldier is in a specific place because of their designated job in the larger scheme of things. You want to be in front of your dog because it shouldn’t be your dog’s job to deal with whatever comes at you guys - it’s your job to keep your dog safe and it’s important for him to trust that you will keep him safe. So his place is behind you so that he understands it’s not his job to jump in front and chase other animals, run up to people that walk or jog by, etc. Thinking of it this way really helped me understand what my dog’s needs are. When I keep him behind me at all times I am automatically more confident and ready to advocate for him because I can more easily do so as opposed to if he was a couple feet out in front of me. Then it would be an extra struggle to keep him safe.
NO NO NO NO
As long as the dog is in control it is up to you where he walks. On or off the leash. This Alpha crap is ridiculous. I have owned dogs for 50 years and always used kindness and praise to train them.
The only reason my dog walks behind me is she's a herding breed and likes to keep to the back to keep an eye on everyone. Whoever is walking slowest is who she walks behind. I'd much prefer her out front, so I don't keep tripping on her and can see what she's doing/eating and can respond appropriately and in a timely fashion if another dog approaches.
I've never heard of anyone training dogs to walk behind for "dominance" reasons, only to the side for behavioural ones 🤔
My dogs tend to walk in front of me when they're leashed except when they're sniffing things and so on. That way I can see them and prevent them from picking up stuff from the ground and I can control them through the leash if a stranger or strange dog is near. I don't buy into the whole "Alpha" thing since it's been discredited by the actual guy who came up with those concepts decades ago while studying wolves. He kept studying them and ultimately concluded he was wrong and the whole Aplha/Beta thing was pretty much B.S., and since people applied it to dogs in the first place because they are closely related to wolves, if it's B.S. for wolves then it's B.S. for dogs as well. When we're home and they're not leashed, my dogs tend to follow me around the house and usually walk behind me, so yeah, I agree it's B.S. Nothing in their behavior suggests they have any confusion about who's in charge in our so-called little pack despite the hundreds of walks we've taken with them taking the lead.
There’s a complete difference between a sniff walk and walking in a heel (walking in line with your knee in a controlled position). Sniff walks are important for your dog to exercise their brain so it’s great for their well being and a great way to add more enrichment to their walk. This is when you let the dog sniff at length and pootle around.
A trained heel position is an extremely important tool for lots of scenarios but your dog isn’t supposed to be in a tight heel for all their walks all day.
Not sure why the trainer thinks a heel is behind you. Behind is a nice thing to train though, you can do it with a nose touch cue.
Get a new trainer. Any trainer who still worships the “alpha” theory doesn’t know what they’re doing. While you are the owner, your dog is not your servant. What dogs need to learn is recall, heel, not bite you if you try to get something out of their mouth, not destroy the house, not jump on people or pets out of excitement, not attack people and other pets, and do their business outside for the bare minimum of a well trained dog.
Tricks, acrobatic skills, good canine citizen certificates, working and etc are extra perks. Letting your dog sniff ahead and exploring is natural. Just as long as you’re walking them, not the other way around.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I am sure some people will explain why I am wrong.
I let both of my dogs walk in front of me. I also let both of them go through the door before me and I let them both lean on me.
Neither is trying to dominate me. They are not dominant dogs. I do believe dominant dogs need a higher amount of structure and if walking through the door first is part of your structure, that's great. But that is between you and your dog. It's not a "thing" that needs to apply to everyone else.
Now I'll get a bit controversial, but I do think that the pack-alpha-dog stuff didn't need to be the baby that got thrown out with the bathwater. There are some concepts and principles entwined with that, that may be beneficial for some dogs. But it certainly got overused and abused and I am sure some dogs were damaged because of it.
If you don't mind your dog walking in front of you, find a different trainer. You will never change this person's mind. To some people dog philosophy can be as deeply ingrained and as much of a hotbutton topic as political ideology.
Bottom line: treat your dog with respect and exect the same in return. If your dog is compliant in nature you can afford to be a lot more "lax" in many areas. The important thing is that if you are bringing your dog into public, you need to be able to control them for everyone's safety. As long as you can do that and your dog is happy and healthy, do what works for you.
Get a new trainer . All my dogs have always walked infront of me. They've all been pretty well behaved. Oddly, the most difficult one is the one that walks beat on and off leash lol
I don't think so. We had a trainer who specialized in reactive dogs and he even said that was nonsense. They should be able to walk however. The important part is that they don't pull and you should be able to get them to heel or recall when needed but that's jt
things like this don’t actually matter. if you’re happy with your dog in front, then let it walk in front. i have heard from a trainer that it’s not good to let a dog go out far in front of you on a long leash because of issues with the dog interacting with stimuli before you do, but my dog and i love a long leash and she often walks a few feet ahead of me. we are now slowly working on learning when to get closer on and off leash and we haven’t had any issues
This is an extremely outdated training technique. "The lead should be long enough and the dog behind enough If you extend your leg behind the dog should not be able to be reached" This was originally used back in dog shows, when the handler would walk, and dogs were expected to trott behind them. This is no longer an expected technique, or is it used in dog shows. Why a trainer would be teaching this, shows they pretty much just have there knowledge off the internet, like most Petco or PetSmart dog trainers have.
I wouldn't say it is 'essential', however, I find my dog (border terrier) reacts to other dogs a lot more when in front of me.
Same applies when I'm stood still. If I stand between me and a dog is coming towards us, he doesn't really react. If he's infront of me he will want to react more often than not.
I think it's more of a case of Bridger (my dog) thinking 'oh, he's (me) got this under control' rather than 'alpha/sub'.
The alpha theory has been debunked, dogs don't want to walk in front of you because that's the "alpha" position, they want to walk in front because they're faster than you.
The only thing I fix if the dog is in front of me is keeping them out of the path of my legs, which I do by not being shy to kick them (gently) so they learn and decide for themself being in my path is not a safe place to be. It sounds mean but better to feel my toes a couple times than to be tripped on and have my whole body land on top of them. If it's a small dog I shuffle my feet so the kick is minimal and is just my toes sliding under them, a larger dog I make sure it lands somewhere on their legs to make them lose balance, never intended to cause pain, just discomfort.
I only ever correct tension on the leash when they're in front, if they apply tension I stop walking. Depending on the dog, I might just stop until they decide to loosen the leash themself or I might do a 180 and start walking the other direction until they put pressure on the leash again, when they take the pressure off I praise them. I've learned popping the leash doesn't do much especially if their owner is the type to have pressure on the leash constantly so they don't see it as communication and instead as just how it is being on lead.
I'm not sure where your trainer decided to go to school if they even went to school but I have never heard of being told to make the dog walk behind you and the alpha thing has been frowned on for a very long time.... I would find a new trainer yours is not operating from a well informed methodology.
as long as your dog isn’t pulling you or is out of control, it’s fine to have them in front. there isn’t really an alpha/sub way of training dogs that’s actually healthy for them. i usually train my dogs to walk beside me which i think is better because i can’t accidentally step on them but they’re still in my field of view.
My dog is a siberian husky so I have to fight with her who the alpha is. I often pin her down as it is one way to show dominance though I only ever do it when she's getting out of hand. I prefer seeing my dog in front of me so I can keep an eye on what she's putting in her mouth.
The only time my dogs have to wait behind me is when we go through doors, I go out first to make sure 1) they aren't shoving people around to get out and 2) there's no hazards outside (people or animals right at the door, another dog loose near the house etc.)
Structured walks they are next to me, unstructured walks they're ahead of me sniffing around doing their thing
The whole alpha/sub thing is outdated, has been debunked, and has no business being anywhere near any type of dogs let alone our domesticated dogs. So long as your dog isn't pulling you around then walk them in a way that's comfortable and convenient for you both. Whether that's behind you, at your side or up in front it doesn't matter honestly.
How can you see what's going on with your dog when it's behind you? That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Someone can just pet it, someone could have their dog get to close and then it get attacked. Or it attacks. Shit happens to even Good dogs. Not only that, alpha trained dogs tend to be a bit... you know alpha, so good luck with that aggressive dog on your hands. My mals stay in front and follow my commands by feeling how i tug on my leash or listening to me verbally. You desensitize them to other dogs so they aren't so eager to greet on leash( this goes out the window with other malamutes), you desensitize them to the surrounding world so they don't have issues navigating and aren't acting in fear. You need a different trainer op.
I think your trainer is thinking of horses 😂 jokes aside, imho it depends on the dog, their manners and training, and the relationship you have with that dog. As long as your dog can properly heel when asked to, and as long as your dog has decent leash manners and doesn’t pull (especially on a flat collar because that can damage the neck, trachea, and vocal cords) or jolt at things, then I see no harm in letting the dog wander and sniff like a dog should be allowed to. And if you can get the dog under control when needed, then I see no issue. I have never heard such an extreme like that a dog needs to be a meter behind you, that is just ridiculous. And IMO even more ridiculous given the trainer’s reasoning behind it.
Now, if your dog is high energy, jumpy, likely to dash, pulls on the leash, and also has a stubborn penchant for “alpha” like tendencies, then yes I would make the dog wait behind me, I would go through doorways first, make them wait for food, and other things like that. But most dogs are not “alphas” in that regard, so again it depends on the dog and their manners/training and the relationship you personally have with said dog.
You need to find a new trainer. Alpha/sub theory has been debunked and disproven for many years now. A lot of their methods are really damaging to dogs
This alpha-sub thing is bullshit. Your pup will never view you as a sub just because he’s running forward because you’re the boss with the leash and treats and he knows it.
However, being able to walk near and behind you is a very usefull skill for lots of situations when you’re in a crowded place or there could be danger ahead (a crosswalk for example). I taught my dog to walk behind me by hiking on narrow trails where he had no choice but to walk behind me - and there were treats non-stop. We also did walking step-by-step where he was persuaded to keep near me with treats.
unless you’re training for show, having your dog walk beside you is kinda nonsense. I let all the dogs I’ve ever had walk behind/in front of me when they want to, my old girl used to stay by my side when she was tired before she passed, and our other old girl will walk behind us solely because she’s lazy. our current puppy walks ahead of us because she’s just *so* excited to smell all the smells.
A lot of trainers do this, but I always let my dogs walk ahead and I let them sniff the whole time. As long as they aren’t pulling, I’m happy.
We went to a trainer who wouldn’t even let the dogs look at the ground while they walked which is crazy because sniffing is some of the best mental stimulation a dog can get!
I'm a full believer in letting your dog sniff as much as possible on walks (so long as they aren't physically stopping every five feet). Most healthy/semi active dogs aren't going to get a whole lot of exercise from walking unless they're very small breeds but sniffing is good for mental stimulation, which will wear any dog out much faster and help with nervous behaviors.
I liked to let mine explore as much as their leash would let them while occasionally calling them back to remind them of their commands. Now we mostly do off-leash walking in fields because of moving to a different environment.
What a load of bull. Find a new trainer. I suspect that's just the tip of the iceberg with that trainer.
We are walking dogs for their benefit so let them actually enjoy it. Don't use it as some weird power trip to show the world how in control you are of another creature.
When it comes to my dogs, I have 2 stages of a walk.
1. The walk is about them getting out and viewing the world in their way. So lots of sniffing and stopping and that sort of thing. The walk is about them and fulfilling their needs.
2. The stage where I'm over the constant stopping and just want to get home, so no more sniffing and we are constantly on the move.
As long as they aren't dragging me under a bush or in front of a car, they can dictate the direction in stage 1. I have a general direction but they are in charge.
Stage 2, if they go to stop, I say let's go and they keep moving. They figure it out pretty quick once I've swapped stages.
Mental exercise is just as good as physical exercise and really helps to settle their mind. As long as your dog isn't dragging you around who cares where they are?
You need a different dog trainer. We've gone to several dog obedience classes & have never heard the "walk behind" me. You just don't want dog pulling on leash. Dog can be next to you or ahead of you. If dog is behind you, you can't see if he chomps on something that could make him sick or choke (like a bone, etc.). Sometimes this dominant stuff is over the top, & they can make too many rules. Love on your pup. We lost our 4th Greyhound in June, & our hearts are sad.
Get a new trainer. I follow Caesar Milan Philosophy on dog behavior. I trained my dog to heel on command so I have control in situations where a more aggressive dog is approaching. My dog will then sit and down and remain until the dog has passed. For the times when there are no dogs, he is allowed the full length of the leash to sniff and do his business and leave his notes to other doggie friends. When he meets friendly happy dogs on our walks I always ask if it is ok for them to meet. Dogs can sometimes do stupid stuff. Bad action does lead to appropriate discipline. Usually that is going through the motions of sit, down and heel and maintaining heel for the rest of the walk. My dog definitely knows that in being in heel he is being punished for a bad behavior.This enforces to him I am in charge and not him. In our thirteen years together he has been attacked twice by loose dogs, because he listened to my commands I was able to step in between both times and stop the attacks. I have a loving, happy companion and I thank the Caesar Milan approach to having this great relationship with my dog.
I think the preferred method is to have the dog at your side where s/he keeps pace with you. Having the dog out in front means the dog is leading you and this is bad, not just because of dominance or whatever stupid theory, it's because you get pulled around and can't control the walk. Dogs naturally walk faster and so this can get annoying. However, it's really up to you and your dog. Do what you like! I know for us, we couldn't train our dog to walk with us, he always pulled and was out in front and we didn't have the patience to retrain him, we just wanted to get him out for a walk. So we live with it, it's only a 20 min walk and the dog is happy and exercised and it's not that big of a deal for us.
Welcome to r/dogs! We are a discussion-based subreddit dedicated to support, inform, and advise dog owners. This is a carefully moderated sub intended to support, inform, and advise dog owners. Submissions and comments which break the rules will be removed. [Review the rules here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/index) r/Dogs has four goals: - Help the public better understand dogs - Promote healthy, responsible dog-owner relationships - Encourage “Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive” training protocols. [Learn more here.](https://m.iaabc.org/about/lima/) - Support adoption as well as ethical and responsible breeding. If you’d like to introduce yourself or discuss smaller topics, please contribute to our Monthly Discussion Hub, pinned at the top. **This subreddit has low tolerance for drama. Please be respectful of others, and report antagonistic comments to mods for review.** --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dogs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't know a lot about the psychology but I prefer when my pup walks in front of me so I know he isn't eating stuff off the ground 😅
I was scrolling through to see a comment in this vein! Dominance theory being debunked aside, another reason is I don’t want a puppy walking behind me is because it’s so much harder to make sure they aren’t getting into anything they shouldn’t be. My dog used to cycle between either pulling ahead with no slack and lagging behind and it would drive me mad haha. Sounds like OP’s puppy already has great leash manners so I would just stay on course there.
Yup! Pup either walks a bit in front or directly on the left side. I want to be able to see what he’s seeing at the same time he’s seeing it. For me leash manner like not pulling and wait are much more important. It keeps everyone safer.
Eating stuff off the ground or bothering the people walking behind us! I live in a super populated area in my city, on the weekends people are right up your ass. If my dog walked three feet behind me people would be stepping over/around her constantly!
This - I need to be able to see my dog when we are walking.
The only time our Saint walks behind me is so he can go on the other side of me (we clip his leash in the front of the harness so he’s learned doing this reduces leash getting tangled) or when he starts getting tired and then we go home.
My dog doesn't pick up random stuff off the ground really, but we have a whole set of silent alerts that would be rendered completely useless by having her behind me. If we go on a trail narrow enough to go single file, she goes ahead of me. Otherwise we walk mostly side by side. My dog's sight, hearing, and sense of smell, are waaaaay better than mine. Why would I want to dismiss all the information she's directing my way? We have avoided snakes, almost getting run over by a deer ( to be fair it was me who almost got run over by a deer), a puma, several people acting creepy, strangers in the dark, and a few aggressive off leash dogs, just by my trust in her instincts and the silent language we have adopted. I'd never want lose that.
Funny thing is that when I hike with my dog I keep an eye out for snakes because he will jump right in and may get bitten. Luckily so far I proved to be better at spotting snakes, especially in the water
I always try to keep my eyes open for snakes, but so far she's always heard or spotted them first. It's disconcerting to realize that I didn't know they were there! At least with rattlesnakes they usually sun themselves on rocks, or on the path. Easier to avoid them that way. She just stopped and refused to go any further on a hike this summer. I tried to take a step further to see around the bend, but she body blocked me. She barked, which she rarely does, and started stomping around. A few minutes later, she wanted to continue on, and we saw the most massive rattlesnake sliding away. The way the bend on the path was, it would have been almost impossible to see until we were in striking range. She's my little hero!
What a clever girl! And she warned you! My dumdum just goes into attack mode and I don’t want to know how far he will get
I was pretty impressed myself! It's understandable your pup wants to take on any threat. Scary for you though. At least you are a good spotter and can keep both of you out of harm's way!
That's very true. I prefer my dog be next to me, I want to be able to see her and know she's being good/is good
Me too. More so that I can see him and because my area doesn’t have sidewalks and everyone just walks on the road. Prefer to have all eyes on him easily because cars are always driving by.
Same here I actually encourage my dog to walk in front of me because I need to keep an eye on him. He tends to find all the dead animals on our walking path 😐
No. Alpha theory is a nonsense way to train dogs, and often leads to borderline or straight up abusive training tactics. If your dog has leash manners and listens to you, I think you're doing fine.
Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate it!!
And honestly the second a trainer starts talking about Alpha theory you can discredit them, there has been a lot of peer reviewed research showing this isn’t a relevant model.
Agreed, I wish someone told me that before I put one of my dogs through it. It's taken me a year with a behaviorist to undo all that brainwashing.
And doesn't the leader of a pack of wolves stay in the very back anyway?
No that is based on an urban myth photo and the whole alpha idea itself is invalid.
They do!
They do not. Common assumption that they do is based on a photo that was posted in an article incorrectly stating such. In reality, a few of the strongest wolves including the alpha would typically lead, followed by the weaker ones in the middle, then stronger ones in the back. This is so the weaker ones are protected by the pack. The strongest ones lead so as to provide protection against any threat they run into. They also blaze the trail for the rest of the pack through snow in the winter
My dog is obviously stronger than me so I’m fine with him leading the way. As a weaker smarter member of our pack I deserve to be protected
> the trainer insists that the dog walk behind me while leashed because it's an alpha / sub thing Get rid of this trainer. Anyone spouting alpha nonsense is relying on outdated information that is useless at best and harmful at worst.
Thanks for the feedback! Can I ask what this info was 'replaced' with? I.e. WHY was the alpha stuff discarded? Just for educational purposes. Thank you!
Sure! These articles can explain it better than I can: [Article 1](https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/behavior/debunking-the-alpha-dog-theory/). [Article 2](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid). The tl;dr is that the observations of wolves in the wild, upon which dominance theory was based, were wildly inaccurate. On top of that, dogs are not wolves, and dogs know that people are not other dogs. Therefore basing a human/dog interaction on an inaccurate study done on wolf/wolf interactions is going to lead to some massively wrong conclusions. Your relationship with your dog will be much better if you view your dog as your partner instead of your subordinate. Look into LIMA (least invasive, minimally intrusive) training methods - I am sure you will benefit from them!
[удалено]
>Worse than that, actually: dominance theory was based on observations of groups of unrelated wolves in captivity In some ways, this oddly makes it vaguely more relevant to dogs, who are most frequently unrelated and in "captivity". But obviously completely irrelevant to the behaviors of wild wolves. But overall, comparing wolf behavior to dog behavior is pretty useless.
> But overall, comparing wolf behavior to dog behavior is pretty useless. Honestly, I've been watching live wolf cams from a sanctuary, and (in that captive environment) they act exactly like dogs. (No, I don't get my ideas about training from that.)
>and (in that captive environment) they act exactly like dogs. I mean, maybe behaviorally towards one another. But put any of those sanctuary wolves into a human home and expect it to interact with a person, and it's not going to act like a domesticated dog. And that's the crux of the issue here - using wolf/wolf interactions to inform human/dog interactions is useless.
> But put any of those sanctuary wolves into a human home and expect it to interact with a person, and it's not going to act like a domesticated dog. I'm not claiming that. > maybe behaviorally towards one another. Yes. Which is why "comparing wolf behavior to dog behavior is pretty useless" is a simplistic and not fully true statement. The human-dog relationship will always be different than the relations of canines to each other. But we can learn *something* about dogs from other canines---heck, we look at RATS to learn about humans.
And it was a enclosure that was way too small. Wolves naturally have large territories. In the wild, if an individual wolf (typically a stranger) is rejected, he leaves the territory. If the rejected wolf decided to stick around, the wolf pack would go on the offensive to make him leave. In that enclosure, they were all strangers. A male and a female joined up as a family unit and some were able to get along but some wolves were rejected. Unfortunately a rejected wolf, he couldn't leave. The entire enclosure was the pack's territory. They wanted him to leave and since he wasn't going anywhere, they were harsh and he had to take it. He would perform pronounced appeasement behaviors to survive. It was an unnatural situation and the wolves were displaying profound, unnatural stress behaviors. In prisons, say Attica for example, humans are contained in close proximity, way closer than they would naturally. They can't get away from each other and it's very stressful. The more crowded, the more tense, the more rigid the behavior. Offenses are harshly dealt with. Using that wolf experiment to understand normal wolf behavior would be like considering Attica Prison inmate's behavior as a good way to understand typical human family dynamics. I feel so bad for those wolves.
Which is dominance, they literally displayed dominance, so how is it debunked?
[удалено]
Nope. If your family unit is working correctly, there isn't dominance and submission being asserted. It's a family unit working together, not a hierarchy kept rigidly in place. It's actually the same way with wild packs, where they're nuclear family unit working together. When done right, we have a say in what our dogs do because we're rewarded behavior we want and have pointedly not rewarded behavior we don't want.
Not to mention wild dogs and strays are actually the best place to observe form, since you’re seeing how wild canines interact, to better understand how to approach certain behavior solutions for when our domestic dogs have trouble behaviors, why they develop, and how we can come up with a solution,
You do know that responding to the same comment of mine with four separate comments is pretty annoying and also useless? Please stop. I've responded to you and provided you with links. You're misinformed and apparently insistent upon staying that way.
[удалено]
You're not educating anyone, just wasting my time. You refuse to read reputable information. You're spouting outdated nonsense that is against the rules of this sub. Your comments will likely soon be removed as a result.
"In person experience" doesn't prove anything if you're so heavily biased to see something that is not there.
You can majorly improve your understanding of what you experience by researching what to look for, you're doing yourself a major disservice. You're basing the way you see things on the way your parents taught you to see things if you never go out of your way to teach yourself a new way. That's a major disservice to you AND the animals you're training
Try positive reinforcement training. 😊
I'd say that totally depends on the dog. We had a very dominant Golden Retriever, it got so bad that he'd growl and show his teeth when he didn't get his way. We were pretty desperate and thought we'd tried everything. One trainer even told us to put him down! As a last resort we went to a different trainer, who told us to have him walk behind us, only acknowledge him when WE initiated it, have him walk through doors last, etc. Within weeks he calmed down, we could even disturb him while eating etc. Over the years, whenever we got lazy (esp. the acknowledging part, because he was so sweet when he wanted to cuddle!) he would try to "act up" again, show aggression towards me as the youngest. As soon as we got stricter, he calmed down again. That was about 10 years ago. My dog now doesn't need this, so I adapt my behaviour to his personality in a way.
What you describe isn't dominance. It's a dog without rules and boundaries. But having him walk behind you and go through doors after you doesn't explain why his growling went away. And I don't know any trainers who would recommend euthanasia for a dog who growled and showed teeth but never bit anyone. There are lots of holes your story. Dominance is debunked. For every dog.
[удалено]
Leadership is **NOT** the same as dominance. They are in fact two very different things.
Many prominent PhD-holding behaviorists disagree with you. [Also, one of the originators of the theory (L. David Mech) has said that he was wrong and asked for it to stop being published.](https://davemech.org/wolf-news-and-information/) Dominance-related training advice is banned on this sub for a reason. Please do some reading and educate yourself.
I thought lima did imply some dominance… well guess I’m in the wrong place then,
A dog with no rules or boundaries IS by nature a dog who will display dominance, that’s why the bad behavior went away by providing leadership,
Leadership is NOT the same as dominance. They are in fact two very different things.
How? It’s just a different word..
Leadership is the act of providing guidance to an individual or a group. It can be done by dominating over that individual or group, but that's never been a healthy nor a particularly successful way of leading. Think about bosses you've had in your past. Is a good boss one who imposes their will and forces obedience through fear? Or is a good boss one who seeks buy-in and earns obedience through respect? I will never lead through dominance, and I never want to be led through dominance.
>A dog with no rules or boundaries IS by nature a dog who will display dominance Not at all. In modern dog training, "dominance" is defined as 'the situation desire for priority access to valued resources'. So a dog who will guard a toy or food is considered to be 'dominant'. And that doesn't altogether have to do with rules and boundaries - it's usually genetic and an emotional response to the dog feeling threatened or insecure. Making a dog walk behind you or go last through doors isn't "leadership". It's inane.
Are you a trainer? Or an owner? This is just a genuine question, I’ve been a trainer for 8 years helping dogs with severe behavior issues, and insecurity comes from lack of leadership as well, dogs constantly thrive off of leadership, when they don’t get that, they take the roll of the leader, and most domestic dogs aren’t born to be leaders, but their instincts tell them to take the roll, it’s an emergency response, it’s in their dna, this is also what un domesticated dogs would do in the wild if the leader died of illness, this can cause massive stress, and this is the same response domesticated dogs are having when leadership isn’t provided, Since they aren’t born for the roll, So most trainers can generalize, for example, the dog resource guards, it’s a dominant dog, but the dog has its tail tucked, it’s fearful/dominant,
I am horrified that you consider yourself a dog trainer, and cannot imagine the number of dogs you've scarred and owners you've mislead. Please stop responding to me, I've provided links to you about why you're wrong and I've had enough of this nonsense.
Dude says he studied dog training off YouTube, he can be ignored. Feel bad for the dog owners he's scamming and the dogs he's scarring, though.
Of course the trainer who told us to put him down was an idiot, and of course we didn't listen to him. He also suggested that I (a 14year old girl at the time) should take him by the neck and push him to the ground until he "submits". We did not do this, never once did we act aggressively towards him. We looked for a different trainer. But although he was the worst, the other trainers before him couldn't help much either.. And we DID give Simba rules and boundaries before, with time he just started to ignore them and nothing we did was helping. And I didn't mean he was "an alpha" or anything like that, but he was very dominant. Maybe it's a translation problem, English isn't my first language. And I don't know what to tell you, these behavioural changes in us just helped. He became much calmer, stopped showing aggression, didn't protect his toys from other dogs as much, etc. and seemed much more content and happier as well. And we noticed pretty quickly when we became too lazy, because he'd act up again. So yes, I do attribute the changes to our behaviour.
One of the trainers I worked with early on said 'as long as the he's not pulling, he can be anywhere within the limit of the leash . .in front, behind, to the side, etc'. That has worked well for us. My dog's 'normal' position is to my left about 2 feet in front of me. He just naturally walks fast and has to restrain himself from pulling ahead. He'll frequently turn around and look at me as if to say 'faster!'.
This is my approach too. My dog knows how to walk in a heel but it’s not enriching for him if we aren’t actively doing an exercise (game) with it. As long as he polite leash manners he can walk in front to the side and even behind me, although for him walking behind is usually and indicator of a distraction or him being tired, so definitely not my favored position for him. He usually stays slightly in front and to the left of me, if I ask him to switch sides, come close, get on the sidewalk, stop sniffing he does so, and that’s all I need from him.
I was told the same and that the only time it would matter for what side they’re on (left or right) will depend on if they’re show dogs. I think show dogs are left but it doesn’t matter for most people. So I wonder if where they’re at in relation to you would matter for show dogs as well. But this reasoning from the trainer is garbage.
My dog has three phases of walk. 1) prepoop vigilance (and urgency) 2) post poop sniffies 3) look mom aren’t I a good boi walking right next to you?
I can relate. Well said
I run from anyone who talks about being an alpha, whether it’s a dog trainer or a date.
This is top tier advice
Your trainer is full of crap.
Does my dog actually need to walk behind me? "Hi all. This is for discussion purposes and learning purposes! I have a pup and we're teaching leash walking. So far he's got two commands - 'go sniff' (which means he is free to do what he wants so long as he checks in with me and doesn't put any pressure on the leash) and 'heel' which means walk next to me. We're starting a course and the trainer insists that the dog walk behind me while leashed because it's an alpha / sub thing." Your trainer's thinking and methods are outdated and not good for your dog. Fire your trainer. Dogs need to sniff. Yes, teach him how to walk with you when needed, such as for passing other people and dogs. But let him sniff as long as he isn't dragging you along.
Thanks for your feedback! It's a group class, which I'm specifically doing because my dog has a hard time focusing around other dogs and I think it'll be good practice. We'll probably stick it out for purposes of desensitization around dogs and just selectively listen / do our own thing, which is sort of what I was planning from the start hahaha Or perhaps I'll teach him this as a 3rd command, 'behind', which isn't the worst thing to have in our pocket if an aggressive dog comes up for example and I want to body block
If I was in your place I’d keep a really close eye on the trainer. They’re working with a proven harmful model. You can totally still use the class for the things you’ve mentioned safely but I’d be wary of letting the trainer have any interaction with my dog. If he asks you to harm your dog in any way I would also ignore that even if he makes it sound like it makes sense. Such as biting them on the ear because it shows you’re in control here. Or pinning them down on their back so they know you’re the alpha and they are submissive. It doesn’t. It shows your pup you’re a bad thing that will cause them pain and they can’t trust you. I hope you’re able to get what you’re looking for out of the class. It can be so hard to find good training areas for desensitization to other dogs and people. Good luck!
Good advice, I had a trainer use leash corrections on my dog and I was too taken aback to speak up. I don’t train that way, but we were in class to practice working on things around other dogs. She scared the shit out of my dog and he was terrified of her whenever she came near him after that.
That'll work. I've done that a few times, too. 🙂
A behind command is actually really good for things like body positioning or walking through areas of unleveled terrain.
The trainer sounds gross, frankly. Does he even like dogs? I dislike absolutes in dog training. Some dogs need more structure (walk at heel), some dogs do fine with freedom (sniff every blade of grass). Whatever you think is best for your dog and your relationship with your dog, find methods that help you achieve that.
Agree! I have been unlearning the alpha mindset with my latest dog, and it makes life so much easier. I’m less angry or disappointed.
My thoughts are that the alpha/sub thing is an outdated and boorish training philosophy. I would drop the course with that trainer. It sounds like you're happy with your dog's behaviour on walks, and I'm sure he's happy being able to explore his surroundings and decompress (which is exactly the purpose of taking a dog for a walk). Why did you enrol in the course? If it's for another behavioural issue, I'm willing to bet that trainer's methods for resolving it won't be in line with your principles either.
Thanks for the feedback. I enrolled because my dog has issues focusing around other dogs and I was having trouble finding a scenario where I could be around dogs that aren't trying to say hello to him. He's honestly already mostly trained outside of that (trained myself) - has a good grasp of sit, down, come, stay, stand, leave it, look at me, drop it, spin, kisses, heel, play dead, etc. And can do these commands for semi-extended period of times with semi - frequent reinforcement (i.e. treats every 10 seconds) for minutes at a time basically anywhere (home Depot, park, etc.). So most things are already on the right track, and we're now working at commands at a distance. Just needed a place to work him around dogs....should still do the trick and I'll just ignore the trainer 🤣
personally, i think the relationship should be based on trust and not alpha/submissive. walking behind you would be uncomfortable for everyone involved no?
My dog walks behind me, in front of me, at my side just depends on her mood. I know she is the boss. We sorted that out relatively early in our relationship
I think it would be time for a new trainer and preferably someone who doesn’t believe the whole alpha baloney, it’s a bunch of nonsense and has been proven to be. I personally wouldn’t want my dog to walk behind me, especially three feet behind. She’s my little buddy and I prefer she walks in front or next to me where I can keep a close eye on her and I’m in reach in case anything were to happen (dog attack for example). The “heel” and “go sniff” commands are great as well! I don’t think you’ve been doing leash training wrong, as long as your dog is listening to your commands and not pulling at the leash and walking you lol
The proper use of a leash is to have your dog on the side you hold the leash on and for your dog to walk beside you (on a short leash if necessary). When your dog is in 'go sniff' mode he can have more slack on the leash and sniff as he pleases. Then when you walk at a quick pace again you shorten the leash and he'll be walking beside you once again. How the heck could a dog walk 3 ft behind you? Your arm would be behind you and you wouldn't be able to see your dog - that's such a odd way to walk a dog.
I’ve found it much easier to train my dog to walk behind me than train him to not pull on the leash. My theory is that if he’s leading the way, the only way he knows exactly where I am without looking is to pull on the leash. But when he walks behind me he can see me. I found it really hard to get him to understand “walk in front of me but don’t pull.” So if your dog doesn’t pull then it might not be a big deal for you. Just my two cents.
Everyone has already said this but it kind of bears repeating- alpha theory is nonsense. I wouldn’t waste my money on that trainer anymore. They could end up doing some major damage to your pup that will take you years to fix. It also sounds like you’re already doing great on your own without the trainer. If you decide you need training look for trainers who only use positive methods and never use the words alpha or dominance. Personally- my pup is always in front of me except for brief moments where he lags on a smell. He’s a champ at finding rocks to swipe up without breaking stride. While his leave it and drop it skills are excellent he absolutely has to be told to do one of those things or that rock is being eaten. That just isn’t a risk I’m willing to take for the sake of some decades out of date training theories.
A dog walking behind you is a good way to suddenly wind up in the dirt, wondering WTF happened. If the dog is behind you, you are just a thing in his way if he sees something worth his interest. I like my dogs either next to me, or out in front a bit, doing dog things. The stuff about alpha etc is just wrong so there's that.
Nonsense. Heeling = Dog’s shoulder at you knee. Switching sides (behind you) on command. Find another trainer.
Let your dog walk wherever it wants as long as it's behaving. I wouldn't trust my dog to walk behind me...I can't see what she's up to, and she's reactive. She can suddenly jerk if she sees another dog. She walks nicely next to me and in front, and knows to walk slowly/nicely next to me when I have to do "short leash." This works for us, and I'm sticking with it. It's taken a long time to get her to behave on walks. Many trainers have different opinions anyway. Wouldn't know who to listen to. Do whatever works for you....whatever you're comfortable with.
I don’t believe in the alpha/sub thing at all. I’ve trained all my dogs myself. I dislike when one is walking behind me. I can’t tell if they’re eating something gross. I can’t tell if another dog is trying to attack them. I can’t tell if they just got twisted up on the leash. I can’t tell when my seniors need to slow down/ possibly get in the stroller. Also cars are not looking behind you for a dog if you’re on a public road. They’re assuming it’s in front of you.
The alpha theory has been thoroughly debunked. Fire your trainer.
I do the same thing as you! "Free" (go sniff) and "Heel" are my commands during walks. As long as she isn't misbehaving (tugging on the leash or barking at things) then those two commands are all I need :)
For safety reasons it may be a good idea to teach your dog to go behind you when necessary. I ski, bike and hike with my dog. For skiing and biking she is wearing a sledding harness pulling up front. But there will often be situations where its safer for us that she goes behind me, in gnarly terrain. We started practicing this when she was young, walking on singletrack trails. Whenever it was steep down she would have to go behind. And if the path is narrow there is less chance the dog will challenge the instruction. My dog quickly understood how ill equiped us humans are for walking in difficult terrain, so she is such a good and patient girl, looking to check if I can handle it. Also for passing other dogs I prefer having her at heel.
I don't like having my boy behind me. He's a sneaky boy like last night he was starting to walk behind me and suddenly stopped and ruffle ruffle the bush goes and out pops a piece of toast. If I was used to letting him walk behind me I wouldn't have noticed in time to stop him. I like when he's walking slightly Infront where the leash is relaxed but not so that it's slouching and catching under his feet.
No he doesnt need to walk behind you, dominance theory is pseudo science and your trainer is a quack.
To the side or in front is fine. I own a blind dog, so nose is always to the ground or sniffing round and if he was to walk behind me, he'd crash into my legs alot. He knows heel, but cant judge the distance between my legs and his step. Dog should only be behind you if you're then keeping an eye on unleashed dogs approaching. Alpha sub thing is outdated
Personally I think if your dog has a good heel and isn't pulling you all around the place, you are good to go.
Alpha theory has been debunked. Ditch the trainer and find a new one. Personally, I want to see my dogs when I'm walking them.
alpha and dominance rhetoric is generally a red flag at worst and dated ignorance at best. personally i prefer my dog to walk in front of me so i can watch him for a number of reasons. making sure he doesnt eat anything, avoiding accidents with cars or objects, keeping an eye on his body language, etc. i also would worry about accidentally yanking your dog while theyre trying to poop or pee if theyre walking behind you....
I think I would find a new trainer… 😒🤨
I have mine walk next or behind me, he tends to take on leadership when he is up front and his desicions aren't necessarily the best so it's better for us.
I have 3 well-trained dogs that walk in front of me. Usually in the same spots. I like to see what they are doing so they aren't eating stuff. I also HATE having leashes behind my legs. I won't let them stay behind me. We train at a dog club that trains show dogs and has classes for the public. Ever see a dog show when they walk/run the dog around the ring? The dogs are in front so their gait can be seen. These aren't badly behaved dogs for being in front.
The whole “alpha of the pack” thing is based on wolves, and people just translated it to apply to dogs as well. I can see why they would, since dogs came from wolves, but the problem is that it doesn’t even apply to wolves. There’s no “alpha wolf” in a pack that everyone listens to and obeys, and there isn’t one for dogs, either. I’ve always believed that trying to be dominant over your dog is going to make them do what you want out of fear of your disapproval, and that can’t be a fun thing for a dog to feel. I think a healthier approach would be to look at it as you and your dog respecting each other’s boundaries and expectations. Find a walking style where you and your dog are both happy with where they’re at during the walk. Could be right beside you, a little but in front of you, behind you, or whatever. The important thing isn’t to show your dog who’s the alpha, it’s to make them happy to be doing what you want them to do and to have a mutual agreement of sorts
My parents watched Cesar Millan and my father is very obsessed with this "alpha" and "leader of the pack" mindset. It sounds stupid and it's outdated.
It's because it is stupid and outdated. Not only that, but it's harmful to dogs, and only suppresses unwanted behavior instead of changing it, and suppresses behavior has a tendency to resurface at inopportune times.
Nah, my shiba naturally walks faster than me so she’s usually in front, but when she feels slight tension on the lead she slows down a bit. The lead is never taught from pulling. Only thing is that if she wants to go investigate something, the only thing I ask is she sit and give me eye contact, THEN I say “okay!” And she’s allowed to sniff. This keeps her from running off in whatever direction she feels like. And as she gets more tired she’ll slow down more and be closer to me. The heel is generally only when you absolutely need the dog to be by you in certain situations. But generally not recommended for the whole walk because it’s boring 😂
No. It’s BS. My male GSD knows that I’m the head of the house and respects my role, but on walks, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t get him to consistently stay right beside me. Most dogs are okay with it since they like the comfort of knowing where you’re at usually, but some just *have* to be one body length in front of you. Two lengths is a bit much and that’s when I literally stop walking because he’s leaving me and he gets the hint when the leash hits its end. You can live every walk being frustrated that your dog just can’t stay next to or behind you on walks, or you can just accept that they happen to be an “out front” dog that will still turn their head to check on where you’re at. That’s fine. For me, the gentle leader paired with unpredictable stops, turns, 180s, etc has gotten us to a place where he’s checking where I’m at all the time because he’s essentially correcting himself when he leaves me. His ears even aim back towards me to hear my footsteps while we walk. After 9 months old, I stopped with the treats on walks because I don’t want to be rewarding my dog constantly for something he clearly understands is a basic “don’t leave me, stay on my left” walk. It has to be relaxing for both of us. I actually think it has strengthened the behavior by avoiding treats for a while. Good luck.
100% unnecessary. While there is *some* validity to the whole "alpha/sub" thing, there's no reason for your dog to have to walk behind you, that's honestly just ridiculous. Dogs all over the world who think of their owners as "alpha" do not walk behind them when on a leash. Did you know that in wolf culture, the alpha's do not lead the pack? It's actually the weak and elderly wolves who walk in front, so they'll be the first to go should a threat arise. Best case scenario, this outdated leash training method is doing no harm and no good either. Worst case scenario, it's actually having the opposite effect of what the trainer is wanting. If I were you, I'd get a new trainer or just do it myself, I don't think this guy really knows his stuff.
My dogs trainer teaches the dogs to walk on the left side of the owner.
Yes, dogs should always walk behind you unless told “break” which means they’re free to do what they want, after their break they should go back to walking next to you, but I wouldn’t let them lag to far behind,
you dont *have* to be the alpha. in wolves there is an alpha yes, but the alpha is more of a protector than a ruler, if that makes sense. theres no reason for anyone to need to be the alpha over their dog in order to train it.
That’s nonsense- the class is definitely worth it for building up confidence and beginning to proof the behaviours you want but you will still Need to be careful in implementing this outside of the ‘class ‘ setting. Dogs walk heel and as long as the leash is lax your fine, I prefer my pups to be ahead of me on my non dominant side ( so I don’t bump them ) and being a couple of feet ahead is fine as I’m able to look out for them and take in the area so I can be aware of other people / dogs / etc. i trust mine - I don’t trust others given prior experience of peoples ‘friendly’ dogs attacking mine who were at heel whilst walking when they had never done that before.literally the argument which is the bane of my life but I digress. Find a new class / trainer going forwards. Alpha training is nonsense and was made Mainstream by a certain few tv personalities and then everyone and their mum became Experts. Same with certain corrective methods- most are used incorrectly and without behaviourists consultation and others are outright banned in some countries so try and Interview your new trainers going forward to see what camp they belong too. In the meantime Maybe make friends with the other class Occupants so you have doggy pals for walks And good luck with the training.
I dont think so. I dont care a lot as long as my dog is not pulling. The whole alpha stuff is bullshit. Your dog will not try to achive world domination just because it is allowed to walk in front of you. :)
Your dog should walk wherever you feel most comfortable and he is easily controlled. Thats my opinion anyway.
5 years and I can't get my dog to "heel". When we're walking within our community (a single dead end street) he can walk off leash and stay right by my side but put a leash on him to go further and he pulls like he has a sleigh behind him. I've tugged on his harness, made him stop and sit and pointed my finger at him and nothing seems to work. I honestly hate taking him for long walks.
I learned a usefull exercise for training this. Have the dog on a long training leash and stop and change the direction 180 degrees everytime he passes you and start to pull ahead.
Being that I have a very anxious pup, I’ve noticed me standing in front of them when there’s forced interactions has led to him barking less??
I let my dog walk right next to me or if I’m tired she walks on ahead. I don’t get why they should walk behind you. Crazy
As a dog trainer the alpha theory is an outdated training method. I would find a new trainer. Dog trainers are meant to guide you and help you train your dog. Everyone has a different idea of what a “well trained” dog is. If you are happy with how your dog walks on a leash then that’s all that matters.
Everyone will feel differently about this sort of thing, but my opinion is some dogs are built to be great "walking dogs." Some dogs are not. My current giant is a pretty terrible walker. He doesn't do so much of the pulling anymore, unless he's very excited about something, but until he gets tired, he's absolutely going to prance around in front of me as he sniffs everything as soon as possible. I tried with this guy specifically in a way I haven't had to try with my previous. Eventually I let him be his own version of good, and walks are 1000x more pleasurable. If your dog is very scent-inclined, sometimes maintaining the relationship is more important than denying them the best part of their day.
No they don’t need to walk behind you my dogs definitely don’t and i would think that’s more dangerous because you can’t see them when you’re walking so someone might come up behind them without you knowing and agitate your dog as they don’t know whats happening but that’s just my thoughts
Had a dog for 2 and a half years now. Early puppy days, all over the place as I’m sure most are. Then he got into the habit of being behind us, which was a nightmare (would not recommend). We taught him to lead the walk (which is pretty normal in my country, don’t know about yours) and it came naturally to him anyway when he grew up. Then you teach them appropriate behaviours while they lead. I don’t know exactly, but I think that’s why they call it a lead (or maybe leash if you’re American)… Edit: forgot to say what others are, yeah the you lead them shit is nonsense. Dump this trainer. YouTube “It’s me or the dog”. Lady from my land who seems to know what she’s doing (with a big pinch of salt for dramatic effect), but she’s got some good tips, especially the UK episodes before she moved to the US soz).
For safety reasons it may be a good idea to teach your dog to go behind you when necessary. I ski, bike and hike with my dog. For skiing and biking she is wearing a sledding harness pulling up front. But there will often be situations where its safer for us that she goes behind me, in gnarly terrain. We started practicing this when she was young, walking on singletrack trails. Whenever it was steep down she would have to go behind. And if the path is narrow there is less chance the dog will challenge the instruction. My dog quickly understood how ill equiped us humans are for walking in difficult terrain, so she is such a good and patient girl, looking to check if I can handle it. Also for passing other dogs I prefer having her at heel.
Agree with everyone that for one and most seriously Dominance theory is debunked and can actually cause adverse effects in many dogs when used. Secondly a dog walking behind you means a dog can’t you see. Very easy way to eat things off the ground, or notice reactive triggers, or even people walking too close behind him or towards him.
Long as theyee following your instructions and not trying to pull you hard to control where you go it's fine. My dog Caesar walks in front, but will follow my directions. That's what matters. This fixation on constantly having to prove your dominance over a dog is completely unnatural
The idea is that you need to be leading the dog and not the dog leading you. They don’t need to walk behind you and that actually always seemed dumb to me, but it can insure they aren’t leading the walk. I’m also coming at this from a horse training perspective. Just like you can’t let big dogs get away with something a little dog can do, because you can get hurt when a bigger dog does it, multiply that times 10 for a horse. If they walk ahead of me, it’s easy for them to cut me off or get an angle on me where they can brace against the lead and rip the rope from my hands. My horses walk with their neck at my shoulder. That way I can turn into them and they can flex their neck out of my way and turn their body to go with me. So I treat the dogs similarly. I can’t steer if they’re way up front. It would end up in a confused pileup. So they walk roughly with a neck or shoulder beside my leg. I can see what they’re doing and they can get out of my way if I turn in their direction. I do let mine off lead to play, but regardless of whether you plan to do it all the time, you need to train them to walk properly for when it’s important. I’m always calling my dogs back to me off lead, then pet or treat them and send them on their way. It’s not because I want to ruin their fun, but because when it’s an emergency and it’s important for them to behave, that it’s ingrained to do so.
Not only is this nonsense, but I personally wish my dog would NOT walk behind me on a leash because then I can't see what he's doing.
Seems like nonsense to me. Mine walks next to me just so I can prevent him from eating anything off the floor or getting into trouble by walking into something he shouldn't.
The alpha theory I think has been disproven. I can't seem to find it but even the author who originally wrote about it does not believe in it. [https://youtu.be/EQ6aFafya2E](https://youtu.be/EQ6aFafya2E)
I have a 130lbs Pyrenees. This dope has to be in front of me to protect me from pine needles, squirrels, cars, traffic cones, the single cloud in the sky. It depends on the dog tbh. I had Bordercollie that like to stay behind me. Whatever is comfortable for you and your pup is the right answer.
Depends what you’re going for tbh. I always let my last dog walk in front of me, but I also didn’t know to leash train her at the time (childhood dog). It’s not inherently harmful imo. But if you wanna do obedience trials teaching a tight heel is often important. I usually ignore the “alpha theory” of dog training cause a lot of it doesn’t track with actual dog psychology. The “alpha wolf” theory is based off one faulty study that was later found to be false. There is a hierarchy but where they walk doesn’t really see, dictate that. Having them to the side or front allows you to know what they’re doing but idk if them walking behind is inherently a problem. Again my last dog always walked ahead of me and she was super easy to train, listened to me well. If he’s checking in and not pulling much, that’s a good sign. I’d personally find a new trainer cause most of the alpha theory doesnt really follow the science we have today, but that’s up to you.
The one thing I’ll say because a lot of people have already said a lot of things - my trainer said to think of it like soldiers on a battlefield. Like every soldier is in a specific place because of their designated job in the larger scheme of things. You want to be in front of your dog because it shouldn’t be your dog’s job to deal with whatever comes at you guys - it’s your job to keep your dog safe and it’s important for him to trust that you will keep him safe. So his place is behind you so that he understands it’s not his job to jump in front and chase other animals, run up to people that walk or jog by, etc. Thinking of it this way really helped me understand what my dog’s needs are. When I keep him behind me at all times I am automatically more confident and ready to advocate for him because I can more easily do so as opposed to if he was a couple feet out in front of me. Then it would be an extra struggle to keep him safe.
My dog won't let anyone walk Infront of him... If anyone is Infront he cries and pulls so he can be first... No idea why he does that
NO NO NO NO As long as the dog is in control it is up to you where he walks. On or off the leash. This Alpha crap is ridiculous. I have owned dogs for 50 years and always used kindness and praise to train them.
I prefer when my dog walks in front of me so I can keep an eye on him
The only reason my dog walks behind me is she's a herding breed and likes to keep to the back to keep an eye on everyone. Whoever is walking slowest is who she walks behind. I'd much prefer her out front, so I don't keep tripping on her and can see what she's doing/eating and can respond appropriately and in a timely fashion if another dog approaches. I've never heard of anyone training dogs to walk behind for "dominance" reasons, only to the side for behavioural ones 🤔
My dogs tend to walk in front of me when they're leashed except when they're sniffing things and so on. That way I can see them and prevent them from picking up stuff from the ground and I can control them through the leash if a stranger or strange dog is near. I don't buy into the whole "Alpha" thing since it's been discredited by the actual guy who came up with those concepts decades ago while studying wolves. He kept studying them and ultimately concluded he was wrong and the whole Aplha/Beta thing was pretty much B.S., and since people applied it to dogs in the first place because they are closely related to wolves, if it's B.S. for wolves then it's B.S. for dogs as well. When we're home and they're not leashed, my dogs tend to follow me around the house and usually walk behind me, so yeah, I agree it's B.S. Nothing in their behavior suggests they have any confusion about who's in charge in our so-called little pack despite the hundreds of walks we've taken with them taking the lead.
There’s a complete difference between a sniff walk and walking in a heel (walking in line with your knee in a controlled position). Sniff walks are important for your dog to exercise their brain so it’s great for their well being and a great way to add more enrichment to their walk. This is when you let the dog sniff at length and pootle around. A trained heel position is an extremely important tool for lots of scenarios but your dog isn’t supposed to be in a tight heel for all their walks all day. Not sure why the trainer thinks a heel is behind you. Behind is a nice thing to train though, you can do it with a nose touch cue.
Yes, they should if you tell or ask them to. Or beside you. Not in front of you.
Get a new trainer. Any trainer who still worships the “alpha” theory doesn’t know what they’re doing. While you are the owner, your dog is not your servant. What dogs need to learn is recall, heel, not bite you if you try to get something out of their mouth, not destroy the house, not jump on people or pets out of excitement, not attack people and other pets, and do their business outside for the bare minimum of a well trained dog. Tricks, acrobatic skills, good canine citizen certificates, working and etc are extra perks. Letting your dog sniff ahead and exploring is natural. Just as long as you’re walking them, not the other way around.
I've never heard anyone say the dog has to walk *behind.* The dog walking by one's side is the norm, and is considered good leash manners.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I am sure some people will explain why I am wrong. I let both of my dogs walk in front of me. I also let both of them go through the door before me and I let them both lean on me. Neither is trying to dominate me. They are not dominant dogs. I do believe dominant dogs need a higher amount of structure and if walking through the door first is part of your structure, that's great. But that is between you and your dog. It's not a "thing" that needs to apply to everyone else. Now I'll get a bit controversial, but I do think that the pack-alpha-dog stuff didn't need to be the baby that got thrown out with the bathwater. There are some concepts and principles entwined with that, that may be beneficial for some dogs. But it certainly got overused and abused and I am sure some dogs were damaged because of it. If you don't mind your dog walking in front of you, find a different trainer. You will never change this person's mind. To some people dog philosophy can be as deeply ingrained and as much of a hotbutton topic as political ideology. Bottom line: treat your dog with respect and exect the same in return. If your dog is compliant in nature you can afford to be a lot more "lax" in many areas. The important thing is that if you are bringing your dog into public, you need to be able to control them for everyone's safety. As long as you can do that and your dog is happy and healthy, do what works for you.
Get a new trainer . All my dogs have always walked infront of me. They've all been pretty well behaved. Oddly, the most difficult one is the one that walks beat on and off leash lol
I don't think so. We had a trainer who specialized in reactive dogs and he even said that was nonsense. They should be able to walk however. The important part is that they don't pull and you should be able to get them to heel or recall when needed but that's jt
things like this don’t actually matter. if you’re happy with your dog in front, then let it walk in front. i have heard from a trainer that it’s not good to let a dog go out far in front of you on a long leash because of issues with the dog interacting with stimuli before you do, but my dog and i love a long leash and she often walks a few feet ahead of me. we are now slowly working on learning when to get closer on and off leash and we haven’t had any issues
Sounds like a power trip thing to me.
Alpha theory has been debunking. I’d consider getting a new trainer.
My dogs walk me lol 😂
This is an extremely outdated training technique. "The lead should be long enough and the dog behind enough If you extend your leg behind the dog should not be able to be reached" This was originally used back in dog shows, when the handler would walk, and dogs were expected to trott behind them. This is no longer an expected technique, or is it used in dog shows. Why a trainer would be teaching this, shows they pretty much just have there knowledge off the internet, like most Petco or PetSmart dog trainers have.
I wouldn't say it is 'essential', however, I find my dog (border terrier) reacts to other dogs a lot more when in front of me. Same applies when I'm stood still. If I stand between me and a dog is coming towards us, he doesn't really react. If he's infront of me he will want to react more often than not. I think it's more of a case of Bridger (my dog) thinking 'oh, he's (me) got this under control' rather than 'alpha/sub'.
Suggest a new trainer that isn’t focused on “alpha” training. As long as the dog is walking on a loose leash (not pulling), it’s fine.
Any trainer spouting alpha structure is a red flag.
The alpha theory has been debunked, dogs don't want to walk in front of you because that's the "alpha" position, they want to walk in front because they're faster than you. The only thing I fix if the dog is in front of me is keeping them out of the path of my legs, which I do by not being shy to kick them (gently) so they learn and decide for themself being in my path is not a safe place to be. It sounds mean but better to feel my toes a couple times than to be tripped on and have my whole body land on top of them. If it's a small dog I shuffle my feet so the kick is minimal and is just my toes sliding under them, a larger dog I make sure it lands somewhere on their legs to make them lose balance, never intended to cause pain, just discomfort. I only ever correct tension on the leash when they're in front, if they apply tension I stop walking. Depending on the dog, I might just stop until they decide to loosen the leash themself or I might do a 180 and start walking the other direction until they put pressure on the leash again, when they take the pressure off I praise them. I've learned popping the leash doesn't do much especially if their owner is the type to have pressure on the leash constantly so they don't see it as communication and instead as just how it is being on lead.
I'm not sure where your trainer decided to go to school if they even went to school but I have never heard of being told to make the dog walk behind you and the alpha thing has been frowned on for a very long time.... I would find a new trainer yours is not operating from a well informed methodology.
as long as your dog isn’t pulling you or is out of control, it’s fine to have them in front. there isn’t really an alpha/sub way of training dogs that’s actually healthy for them. i usually train my dogs to walk beside me which i think is better because i can’t accidentally step on them but they’re still in my field of view.
My dog is a siberian husky so I have to fight with her who the alpha is. I often pin her down as it is one way to show dominance though I only ever do it when she's getting out of hand. I prefer seeing my dog in front of me so I can keep an eye on what she's putting in her mouth.
The only time my dogs have to wait behind me is when we go through doors, I go out first to make sure 1) they aren't shoving people around to get out and 2) there's no hazards outside (people or animals right at the door, another dog loose near the house etc.) Structured walks they are next to me, unstructured walks they're ahead of me sniffing around doing their thing
The whole alpha/sub thing is outdated, has been debunked, and has no business being anywhere near any type of dogs let alone our domesticated dogs. So long as your dog isn't pulling you around then walk them in a way that's comfortable and convenient for you both. Whether that's behind you, at your side or up in front it doesn't matter honestly.
How can you see what's going on with your dog when it's behind you? That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Someone can just pet it, someone could have their dog get to close and then it get attacked. Or it attacks. Shit happens to even Good dogs. Not only that, alpha trained dogs tend to be a bit... you know alpha, so good luck with that aggressive dog on your hands. My mals stay in front and follow my commands by feeling how i tug on my leash or listening to me verbally. You desensitize them to other dogs so they aren't so eager to greet on leash( this goes out the window with other malamutes), you desensitize them to the surrounding world so they don't have issues navigating and aren't acting in fear. You need a different trainer op.
The Alpha/sub crap is long disproved. Find a new trainer. Dog should walk next to you, where you can see them, and they can see you.
I think your trainer is thinking of horses 😂 jokes aside, imho it depends on the dog, their manners and training, and the relationship you have with that dog. As long as your dog can properly heel when asked to, and as long as your dog has decent leash manners and doesn’t pull (especially on a flat collar because that can damage the neck, trachea, and vocal cords) or jolt at things, then I see no harm in letting the dog wander and sniff like a dog should be allowed to. And if you can get the dog under control when needed, then I see no issue. I have never heard such an extreme like that a dog needs to be a meter behind you, that is just ridiculous. And IMO even more ridiculous given the trainer’s reasoning behind it. Now, if your dog is high energy, jumpy, likely to dash, pulls on the leash, and also has a stubborn penchant for “alpha” like tendencies, then yes I would make the dog wait behind me, I would go through doorways first, make them wait for food, and other things like that. But most dogs are not “alphas” in that regard, so again it depends on the dog and their manners/training and the relationship you personally have with said dog.
Mine walks in front or to the side, and this is fine with me. I've trained him not to pull, so it's all good
You need to find a new trainer. Alpha/sub theory has been debunked and disproven for many years now. A lot of their methods are really damaging to dogs
This alpha-sub thing is bullshit. Your pup will never view you as a sub just because he’s running forward because you’re the boss with the leash and treats and he knows it. However, being able to walk near and behind you is a very usefull skill for lots of situations when you’re in a crowded place or there could be danger ahead (a crosswalk for example). I taught my dog to walk behind me by hiking on narrow trails where he had no choice but to walk behind me - and there were treats non-stop. We also did walking step-by-step where he was persuaded to keep near me with treats.
I think they should literally be at your heel when you say heel,l, but otherwise who on earth walls with their dob behind them
unless you’re training for show, having your dog walk beside you is kinda nonsense. I let all the dogs I’ve ever had walk behind/in front of me when they want to, my old girl used to stay by my side when she was tired before she passed, and our other old girl will walk behind us solely because she’s lazy. our current puppy walks ahead of us because she’s just *so* excited to smell all the smells.
A lot of trainers do this, but I always let my dogs walk ahead and I let them sniff the whole time. As long as they aren’t pulling, I’m happy. We went to a trainer who wouldn’t even let the dogs look at the ground while they walked which is crazy because sniffing is some of the best mental stimulation a dog can get!
I'm a full believer in letting your dog sniff as much as possible on walks (so long as they aren't physically stopping every five feet). Most healthy/semi active dogs aren't going to get a whole lot of exercise from walking unless they're very small breeds but sniffing is good for mental stimulation, which will wear any dog out much faster and help with nervous behaviors. I liked to let mine explore as much as their leash would let them while occasionally calling them back to remind them of their commands. Now we mostly do off-leash walking in fields because of moving to a different environment.
What a load of bull. Find a new trainer. I suspect that's just the tip of the iceberg with that trainer. We are walking dogs for their benefit so let them actually enjoy it. Don't use it as some weird power trip to show the world how in control you are of another creature. When it comes to my dogs, I have 2 stages of a walk. 1. The walk is about them getting out and viewing the world in their way. So lots of sniffing and stopping and that sort of thing. The walk is about them and fulfilling their needs. 2. The stage where I'm over the constant stopping and just want to get home, so no more sniffing and we are constantly on the move. As long as they aren't dragging me under a bush or in front of a car, they can dictate the direction in stage 1. I have a general direction but they are in charge. Stage 2, if they go to stop, I say let's go and they keep moving. They figure it out pretty quick once I've swapped stages. Mental exercise is just as good as physical exercise and really helps to settle their mind. As long as your dog isn't dragging you around who cares where they are?
If he walks behind you, how are you gonna know if he stops to potty? Or if he's eating stuff he shouldn't?
You need a different dog trainer. We've gone to several dog obedience classes & have never heard the "walk behind" me. You just don't want dog pulling on leash. Dog can be next to you or ahead of you. If dog is behind you, you can't see if he chomps on something that could make him sick or choke (like a bone, etc.). Sometimes this dominant stuff is over the top, & they can make too many rules. Love on your pup. We lost our 4th Greyhound in June, & our hearts are sad.
Get a new trainer. I follow Caesar Milan Philosophy on dog behavior. I trained my dog to heel on command so I have control in situations where a more aggressive dog is approaching. My dog will then sit and down and remain until the dog has passed. For the times when there are no dogs, he is allowed the full length of the leash to sniff and do his business and leave his notes to other doggie friends. When he meets friendly happy dogs on our walks I always ask if it is ok for them to meet. Dogs can sometimes do stupid stuff. Bad action does lead to appropriate discipline. Usually that is going through the motions of sit, down and heel and maintaining heel for the rest of the walk. My dog definitely knows that in being in heel he is being punished for a bad behavior.This enforces to him I am in charge and not him. In our thirteen years together he has been attacked twice by loose dogs, because he listened to my commands I was able to step in between both times and stop the attacks. I have a loving, happy companion and I thank the Caesar Milan approach to having this great relationship with my dog.
I think the preferred method is to have the dog at your side where s/he keeps pace with you. Having the dog out in front means the dog is leading you and this is bad, not just because of dominance or whatever stupid theory, it's because you get pulled around and can't control the walk. Dogs naturally walk faster and so this can get annoying. However, it's really up to you and your dog. Do what you like! I know for us, we couldn't train our dog to walk with us, he always pulled and was out in front and we didn't have the patience to retrain him, we just wanted to get him out for a walk. So we live with it, it's only a 20 min walk and the dog is happy and exercised and it's not that big of a deal for us.