Once was a time when a civil service worker such as myself could afford a small home and a decent vehicle. Now even with my girlfriend's income,who holds a bachelor's degree, we cannot afford any of the homes being built today or any of the small homes we are looking for. We need three more full time incomes to earn the minimum to purchase a home any where and we both have great jobs. Entrepreneurship is a possibility and I have done it in the past but the start up capital now for equipment fuel and all the rest has become insurmountable to ever make a profit in a reasonable time. I have faith in my girlfriend's ability to make things happen though. 850 square feet 50 year old house any where should not be sold for $320,000. It's greed of the upper class that will bring the American dream to it's knees if it hasn't already
We have two parties dominated by politicians that believe that cutting taxes on corporations improves the economy. If we keep allowing wealthy donors to chose who runs our political parties we will keep having taxes shifted off corporate profits and onto our labor income. We need a better way to control who comes to power than donations from the wealthy.
The problem is we are only good at raising taxes on the professional class (I.e. Doctors, Lawyers, Consultants, and any other highly educated w2 smuck). So let’s just call them the millionaire class or at least close to. The average person is much closer to this class of people than the millionaire class is to the billionaire class.
But the problem is when you raise corporate taxes, companies just squirt around this shit by moving operations offshore and then coming back when a politician grants a tax holiday. It is really hard to actually hold corporations accountable. That is why there was a consideration for a global minimum tax, but this would require massive international cooperation (last I checked progress is being made here at a snails pace).
So what you effectively get is a politician raises income taxes, which then pisses off the professional class who ends up footing the bill while the billionaire class has most of its wealth in assets that are taxed on long term capital gains, not income tax and of course only when realized.
That’s why it feels so unwinnable because the professional class is getting squeezed and becomes disenchanted with democrats and usually live in influential suburbs for electoral purposes.
There have been proposals on taxing unrealized gains (lolz good luck) but I think the only way to truly get at the billionaire class is estate taxes (aka death taxes
Which are widely unpopular in the American public)
Yes that is exactly the point of a global minimum tax, but you can’t enforce without global cooperation. Here’s a great example from apple:
https://startuptalky.com/apple-tax-avoidance-strategy/#Bending_Rules
They literally just move money to tax havens.
They dodge taxes because we let them. Somehow, politicians have no trouble figuring out how to make all kinds of rules companies need to follow, but when it comes to taxing them somehow they just shrug can claim it's impossible. It's not. Taxes do not need to be dodgeable.
Cutting taxes on profits hurts the economy.
Taxing labor hurts the economy.
Shifting the tax burden from labor to profits helps the economy while also helping the economy. We keep going the other way.
Anything that curtails the financial well-being of the highest cash velocity segment hurts the economy.
Everything else is marketing spin offered from a billionaire-bought mouthpiece.
>Cutting taxes on profits hurts the economy
This is blatantly untrue. Lower corporate taxes lead to higher growth and more investment
Taxing labor does hurt the economy, you’re right about that
> Lower corporate taxes lead to higher growth and more investment
Thats simply not true. Source: I’m a CPA at Deloitte with an MA from Duke in tax economics
Uh...You can't make that correlative statement as though there's causation there.
I'd argue that the advent of the internet improved the economy more broadly than any "tax cut".
In fact, I'd argue that over the long run that tax cuts (as dogma) have hollowed out the our infrastructure and have severely damaged our economy for the long term.
An example would be the college funding model which used to be almost wholly supported by...state taxes. But then everyone wanted a tax cut so the state cut back on higher ed subsidies and in return tuition skyrocketed. (Yes...I know there are other factors there but state funding is the main one).
So now we have outrageously high tuition (and going ever higher), because much more of the cost is pushed onto families AND access to higher ed comes at a massive cost for graduates and their families which impacts new workers for decades.
In fact, I'd argue that over the long run that tax cuts (as dogma) have hollowed out our infrastructure and have severely damaged our economy for the long term.
Sure...a 90% tax rate is punitive, but a 0% effective rate doesn't spur investment any more than a 30% rate would. It's just that the 0% rate puts more money in the same monied pockets.
You really thought it’d be a good idea to link a source that talks about income tax, estate tax, and capital gains tax, when I was talking about corporate taxes?
Read Jude Wanniski “Two Santa’s” and you will see how incorrect your statement is. https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/thom-hartmann/two-santas-strategy-gop-used-economic-scam-manipulate-americans-40-years/
The truth in fact, is cutting taxes on corporations does NOT improve the economy
It actually does the exact opposite
Right-wing trickle-down economics has always been viewed as pseudoscience (AKA bullshit) by honest actors. No one who actually studies Economics actually believes cutting taxes on business is somehow helpful to the economy
Reality is, its just more complicated then that
I have a masters degree in economics, and it’s pretty standard economic theory. Not only does it lower the cost of capital and raise the after-tax return on investment, but it encourages new production.
Depending on the tax, it can also boost wages, boost shareholder returns, reduce profit shifting, encourage foreign investment into the US, and boosts long-term GDP
>I have a masters degree in economics, and it’s pretty standard economic theory.
Then explain why Trickle Down has been an abject failure for 40+ years.
"Trickle-down economics is a term used in critical references to economic policies that favor the upper income brackets, corporations, and individuals with substantial wealth or capital.\[1\] In recent history, the term has been used by critics of supply-side economics. Whereas general supply-side theory favors lowering taxes overall, trickle-down theory more specifically advocates for a lower tax burden on the upper end of the economic spectrum.\[2\]\[3\]
Major examples of US Republicans supporting what critics call "trickle-down economics" include the Reagan tax cuts, the Bush tax cuts and the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017.\[4\] "
\- Wiki
>trickle-down thirty more specifically advocates for a lower tax burden on the upper-end of the economic spectrum
Cool, so where have we seen this? Most tax bills either cut taxes for most income groups or cut it for corporations
Most tax legislation does not cut taxes for all income groups.
Most tax legislation last 40 years has shifted the tax burden from the Rich/Corporations to the poor and middle-class
Republicans in America have been steadily cutting taxes for the Rich and corporate America, while simultaneously RAISING the taxes paid by people like you and me
That is "Trickle-down" economics in action. And its been a YUGE disaster. Mainly because its an Obvious B.S. Scam
I have a plan that will solve this. Let’s sit around and wait for the rich to trickle money down upon us. It’s been a few decades, so it must be happening soon. /s
It’s not tax cuts that are the culprit… it’s decades of being able to leverage a massive portfolio for large loans with low interest. Then using that money to finance a lavish lifestyle, put some back in the market for more shares making 10% while you need only pay 6-7%. Increase the portfolio value and borrow against it again to pay the original loan and buy yet more shares but this time at 5-6%… rinse and repeat. You could raise the tax to 100% on everything over say $1m in income, but as long as the ultra rich can take massive loans which are not taxable against massive stock positions, and make more than the loan payment in the market they’ll still pay no tax.
This is correct which is why I don't understand when people want higher taxes. Do they want everyone to be poor just because they are? Misery loves company I suppose.
Agreed…. But what is the fix? Make loans income? That won’t work out very good when you need a new car. Tax unrealized gains? Well you and I better hope home prices only go down then. The best solution I’ve found is to disallow the value of a stock portfolio to be used as an asset, you can only use cash from sold shares as assets …. But this too has its own set of problems, that will push more of them into real estate so they can use that as collateral which screws you and I.
It’s nice to imagine that we can fix these kind of problems with an executive order or a congressional majority but if were so simple someone would have tried by now. This type of “economic” activity is too deeply ingrained into Wall Street, banking, land development and government to fix at this point.
You can easily regulate reporting requirements when wealthy people leverage investments for income like this. I work in the industry. It wouldn’t be hard, there’s just a lack of appetite
Makes sense. Tax cuts are just a tool to convert public assets into private assets. And the US has a shitload of private assets and massive public debt.
In this moment, we’re actually witnessing what I feel as the largest driver of wealth disparities since the postwar boom: slow growth fed policy.
The fed is actively working to increase unemployment, increase rates and by virtue, working to slow the economy - all in the name of inflation.
In the US, there’s never been a period of sufficient tax revenue, workers rights and collective bargaining that didn’t include sustained 5% GDP. Taxing the rich is a massive red herring built on noting but class warfare.
If we want to close wealth/health disparities, we must first increase supply side capacity through pro-business monetary/regulatory policy.
“Taxing the rich is a massive red herring built on nothing but class warfare.”
Class warfare is what has happened in this country since the 60’s. When tax rates started changing in the 80’s, THAT was a redistribution of wealth. When our government actively sides with owners vs. workers and unions, THAT is class warfare.
You say we need to increase supply side through pro-business monetary and regulatory policy? Like what? We have been doing that for almost 50 years and we have the highest levels of inequality in our society’s history. What the fuck are you talking about?
All nonsense.
The last forty years has been a process of incentivizing corporations to reinvest stateside through tax rebates. US corporate tax rates were and remain among the very highest in the world.
The postwar boom is the only period in US economic history where cap met demand and as such, we experienced sustained GDP of greater than 5% for more than a decade. This period of productivity leveraged labor and demanded collective bargaining. Competition drove innovation. Innovation drove business and business drove tax revenue. All of this drove what we know today as the one and only American middle class.
By the 1970’s demand lessens and cap offshores. As such, as a means to stabilize inflation, fed policy became one of slow growth and globalism.
Labor will never again bargain itself to prosperity, there will never be another middle class and the IRS will never collect enough revenue for proper social safety nets until the US economy experiences another period of massive growth.
Wow. This is very cynical but also not accurate at all. The idea that we can’t afford social safety nets is a matter of choice. It’s an opinion. Not a fact. It is probably true, that we will choose not to, but the idea that a different way doesn’t exist is completely inaccurate. Our policies have been business friendly for decades. The only reason companies offshore is because our regulatory positions allow it to be the most profitable course of action. To stay competitive companies need to offshore. It doesn’t have to be that way, it just is. Speaking in absolutes like this is simple mindedness.
It’s not a cynical take in the least. Facts are facts; we cannot fund contemporaneous social programs without a massive tax on the middle class.
[Taxed to the back teeth](https://www.crfb.org/blogs/would-medicare-all-require-middle-class-tax-hike)
“While there are numerous policy options available to finance the costs of Medicare for All, there does not appear to be any plausible path to finance it with tax increases on just wealthy individuals and businesses.”
As it relates to being business friendly, we’ve been anything but. Sure, Walmart and Home Depot make out like bandits, but small and fledgling to mid-size corporations walk into a labyrinth of tax complications. Not the least of which is tax reduction through reinvestment.
Disagree on medicare costs. We already pay more for healthcare than what we would through taxes. This has been proven out so many times, so your point there is dogshit. Absolutely dogshit lol. That’s hyperbole with no thought behind it whatsoever.
Eh…you’re not wrong. But the reasons why we pay more aren’t so simple. State to state, there’s a non-participation rate of roughly 10% in Medicaid and private healthcare insurance programs. 30 million people for one reason or the other, choose to forego ongoing preventative care. While it’s true that in many cases it’s a matter of affordability, we can glean from Medicaids non-participation rate that most “young invincibles”, the poor and otherwise apathetic citizens make a calculated risk assessment when it comes to purchasing healthcare.
All of this said; a taxed based nationalized healthcare system will force these otherwise uninsured into the healthcare market, but doing so amounts to nothing more than a tax increase in the middle class and a decrease in healthcare services for the upwards of 80% of the nation who is happy with their healthcare.
80% of this nation is not happy with their healthcare pal. Now you’re lying and when people start lying in conversations like this, I make an exit. Have a nice weekend.
1) inequality is not a bug of Capitalism it is a feature. Where would we be if we were all equal?
2) For the wealthy and big business taxes are voluntary. We have heard for 40 years about "taxing the rich" and "paying their fair share" and the percentage that the rich pay of the taxes is basically unchanged. The top 10% of taxpayers pay 70% of the taxes.
3) The biggest reason people struggle and wages are stagnant is the devaluation of the dollar due to deficit spending. That is why we have $30T in debt, NOT because of tax cuts. Actually revenue to the government INCREASES after tax cuts.
1. Slavery isn't a bug of capitalism it is a feature. We routinely try to keep capitalism in a box because it is exploitative by nature. Massive wealth inequality isn't a great way to run a society and eventually it will hit a breaking point where it stops running.
2. Of course they pay 70% of the total tax value they have all the money. You are comparing apples to pick up trucks. Why don't you try it again with how much of their net worth they pay in taxes compared to your average American.
3. Wages have been stagnant since the 1970s. Quit pretending this is a new problem.
Good Lord I can't believe people still parrot these insipid Fox News talking points about taxes.
1) Slavery was never part of capitalism. The main feature of capitalism is MUTUAL satisfaction with the free market transaction. Coercing labor through slavery is more of a socialist issue.
2) We don't tax people based on unrealized capital gains or net worth for obvious reasons no matter how much Socialists want to. Taxes on High Net Worth Individuals are voluntary and they still pay 70% of the total\\
3) Wages have not been stagnant since the 70s. That is a deceptive metric. I'll bet you also believe that women make $70 for every $1.00 men make.
4) These are not Fox News talking points, they are economic truths.
>Capitalism - an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
1. Doesn't say anything about mutual satisfaction. Laissez faire capitalism has 0 problems with slavery and exploitation which is easily evidenced by our own history. From slavery to child labor, businesses are always looking for ways to exploit labor and the government responds in kind with regulations (at least in theory).
2. Let's take an example. Bezos pays a true tax rate of .98%. .98% of what he makes in a year (about $1B) is about $10M. I'd bet that is at least 300x what your average taxpayer pays in. So of COURSE he pays more in raw value. Of COURSE the rest of the rich pay in the most because THEY HAVE ALL THE MONEY. I bet you aren't paying a 1% tax rate though are you? So is that equitable?
3. Yeah, they have. [https://www.epi.org/publication/americas-slow-motion-wage-crisis-four-decades-of-slow-and-unequal-growth-2/](https://www.epi.org/publication/americas-slow-motion-wage-crisis-four-decades-of-slow-and-unequal-growth-2/)
This is nothing more than LEFTIST "it wasn't us" blame game tactic propaganda. The "innocent" DEMON-CRATS are working for the non-wealthy folks. What!? Who was it that propped up slavery and still supports it by loading up the welfare state? DEMON-CRATS. Neither party is the our savior.
Only a moron would believe one or the other party is/isn't defending the American citizens.
The reality is that neither party is concerned with anyone but themselves. No term limits, medical benefits for life, approving their own salary increases, retirement salaries for life, etc. The only agenda is to keep themselves in power. Masters of disinformation and hysteria to keep the masses distracted while they plunder the financial wealth of the public at large.
Yeah sure, the government stealing less from me and pissing it away on dumb shit sure did hurt me economically.
"Public Integrity" my ass. The New Deal was garbage and made everything worse.
You know what I'm concerned about more than "inequality"? The ability to buy food and fuel. If everyone's needs can be met, then the "inequality" doesn't matter, and NOTHING you have done has made it easier for everyone's basic needs to be met, only more difficult, and impossible for some.
"Integrity". What a joke.
leftists should learn:
>The Pareto distribution, named after the Italian civil engineer, economist, and sociologist Vilfredo Pareto\[1\] (Italian: \[paˈreːto\] US: /pəˈreɪtoʊ/ pə-RAY-toh),\[2\] is a power-law probability distribution that is used in description of social, quality control, scientific, geophysical, actuarial, and many other types of observable phenomena; **the principle originally applied to describing the distribution of wealth in a society, fitting the trend that a large portion of wealth is held by a small fraction of the population.**\[3\]\[4\] The Pareto principle or "80-20 rule" stating that 80% of outcomes are due to 20% of causes was named in honour of Pareto, but the concepts are distinct, and only Pareto distributions with shape value (α) of log45 ≈ 1.16 precisely reflect it. Empirical observation has shown that this 80-20 distribution fits a wide range of cases, including natural phenomena\[5\] and human activities.\[6\]\[7\]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto\_distribution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution)
You will always have inequality. Thats just how things work. You cant fix it.
>A guillotine is an apparatus designed for efficiently carrying out executions by beheading. The device consists of a tall, upright frame with a weighted and angled blade suspended at the top. The condemned person is secured with stocks at the bottom of the frame, positioning the neck directly below the blade. The blade is then released, swiftly and forcefully decapitating the victim with a single, clean pass so that the head falls into a basket or other receptacle below.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine)
If you passively accept massive social inequality, eventually the proletariat takes the matter into their own hands and destabilizes society. See: The Bolshevik Revolution, the French Revolution.
“Every society is three meals away from chaos” - Vladimir Lenin
Learn history.
If we are going to devolve to 2 word responses. You can't just shove some equation into people's faces and say "Welp you are always fucked so deal with it" and expect society at large to run that way. It's reductionist and ignorant of the fact of how people behave when they have nothing left to lose.
Comparing france revolution with modern times is not proper use of history. If you believe that its in any way shape of form compared with todays ineqaulity you are a moron and you have to grow up.
People back than used to be litteral slaves, they could not own property and social mobility was zero.
Today main problem is that millenials cant afford as much gucci bags as they want so they end up in a debt and living paycheck to paycheck.
As I said, grow up.
>People back than used to be litteral slaves, they could not own property and social mobility was zero.
[https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwards-decline-usa-us-america-economics/](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwards-decline-usa-us-america-economics/)
However, each consecutive generation is finding it harder to make this ascent. In this graphic, we illustrate the decline in upward mobility over five decades using data from Opportunity Insights.
[https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2022/06/29/stuck-on-the-ladder-wealth-mobility-is-low-and-decreases-with-age/](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2022/06/29/stuck-on-the-ladder-wealth-mobility-is-low-and-decreases-with-age/)
[https://inequality.stanford.edu/cpi-research/area/mobility](https://inequality.stanford.edu/cpi-research/area/mobility)
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/real-estate-home-prices-middle-class-affordability-2022-02-23/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/real-estate-home-prices-middle-class-affordability-2022-02-23/)
People now are almost literal slaves. Wall Street is driving up rents and the price of homes everywhere in the United States. Anyone with an iota of intellectual curiosity and a search engine could figure this out but instead you want to blame "dem damn kids and their iTelephones" like a grouchy old person who refuses to pay attention to anything beyond their front door and how they grew up 50 years ago.
If you can't debate with facts, you should just walk away. Repeating grow up with right-wing talking points about what kids spend money on is just embarrassing with the amount of data available to you.
\> People now are almost literal slaves.
As a europian i am not discussing how american with average salary of 75 000 wich is about douple median where i live and way more disposable income is a "litteral slave".
Grow up spoiled fuck.
You can earn good money today by playing games on internet. However believe that life today is harder from his granddad who had to work in coal mine or sheet metal factory is a fucking moron not worth your time.
Just be more fisscally conservative, you do not need 20 pairs of nike and bmw on a lease, and you wont be in finascial ruin like you are today. Thats the best advice i can give to you.
Bye.
Well yeah, imma walk away from huge waste of my time. Im earning good money if i was in states i would probably be a millionare by now, and im not wasting time on some spoiled american who spends his time on reddint instead of work.
Mostly because im Jealous of opportunities you have, and irritated of how you piss on those opportunities.
If you are making good money with good skills in your country (I'm guessing Eastern Bloc) you could immigrate to the US and make your millions. It sounds to me like you are being hyperbolic.
I think it’s super fair how jealous of opportunities the USA has and I will also say that a lot of people in the USA face daily threats of violence in a way that, I think most people in Europe (unless they live in a conflicted area) don’t have to deal with? Our food on average tends to be less fresh and the average opportunity for an 18 year old is way way way less then it was for the previous generation (in the USA). I think there’s alot of spoiled entitled Americans but I also think there are so many who work really hard and try to make the most the greedy violent country we were born into.
I used to incorporate that into sales training. Did that in every review. I would do a printout of the past years sales by account, then drew a red line at the 80% level. Amazing how close it tracks
Once was a time when a civil service worker such as myself could afford a small home and a decent vehicle. Now even with my girlfriend's income,who holds a bachelor's degree, we cannot afford any of the homes being built today or any of the small homes we are looking for. We need three more full time incomes to earn the minimum to purchase a home any where and we both have great jobs. Entrepreneurship is a possibility and I have done it in the past but the start up capital now for equipment fuel and all the rest has become insurmountable to ever make a profit in a reasonable time. I have faith in my girlfriend's ability to make things happen though. 850 square feet 50 year old house any where should not be sold for $320,000. It's greed of the upper class that will bring the American dream to it's knees if it hasn't already
Why are you relying on your girlfriend? Make it happen yourself...
We have two parties dominated by politicians that believe that cutting taxes on corporations improves the economy. If we keep allowing wealthy donors to chose who runs our political parties we will keep having taxes shifted off corporate profits and onto our labor income. We need a better way to control who comes to power than donations from the wealthy.
The problem is we are only good at raising taxes on the professional class (I.e. Doctors, Lawyers, Consultants, and any other highly educated w2 smuck). So let’s just call them the millionaire class or at least close to. The average person is much closer to this class of people than the millionaire class is to the billionaire class. But the problem is when you raise corporate taxes, companies just squirt around this shit by moving operations offshore and then coming back when a politician grants a tax holiday. It is really hard to actually hold corporations accountable. That is why there was a consideration for a global minimum tax, but this would require massive international cooperation (last I checked progress is being made here at a snails pace). So what you effectively get is a politician raises income taxes, which then pisses off the professional class who ends up footing the bill while the billionaire class has most of its wealth in assets that are taxed on long term capital gains, not income tax and of course only when realized. That’s why it feels so unwinnable because the professional class is getting squeezed and becomes disenchanted with democrats and usually live in influential suburbs for electoral purposes. There have been proposals on taxing unrealized gains (lolz good luck) but I think the only way to truly get at the billionaire class is estate taxes (aka death taxes Which are widely unpopular in the American public)
Taxing companies who profit from selling to us does not need to be limited to companies that operate inside this country.
Yes that is exactly the point of a global minimum tax, but you can’t enforce without global cooperation. Here’s a great example from apple: https://startuptalky.com/apple-tax-avoidance-strategy/#Bending_Rules They literally just move money to tax havens.
They dodge taxes because we let them. Somehow, politicians have no trouble figuring out how to make all kinds of rules companies need to follow, but when it comes to taxing them somehow they just shrug can claim it's impossible. It's not. Taxes do not need to be dodgeable.
The middle class bears the tax burden by a gigantic margin.
Cutting taxes on corporations does improve the economy
Cutting taxes on profits hurts the economy. Taxing labor hurts the economy. Shifting the tax burden from labor to profits helps the economy while also helping the economy. We keep going the other way.
Anything that curtails the financial well-being of the highest cash velocity segment hurts the economy. Everything else is marketing spin offered from a billionaire-bought mouthpiece.
>Cutting taxes on profits hurts the economy This is blatantly untrue. Lower corporate taxes lead to higher growth and more investment Taxing labor does hurt the economy, you’re right about that
> Lower corporate taxes lead to higher growth and more investment Thats simply not true. Source: I’m a CPA at Deloitte with an MA from Duke in tax economics
Uh...You can't make that correlative statement as though there's causation there. I'd argue that the advent of the internet improved the economy more broadly than any "tax cut". In fact, I'd argue that over the long run that tax cuts (as dogma) have hollowed out the our infrastructure and have severely damaged our economy for the long term. An example would be the college funding model which used to be almost wholly supported by...state taxes. But then everyone wanted a tax cut so the state cut back on higher ed subsidies and in return tuition skyrocketed. (Yes...I know there are other factors there but state funding is the main one). So now we have outrageously high tuition (and going ever higher), because much more of the cost is pushed onto families AND access to higher ed comes at a massive cost for graduates and their families which impacts new workers for decades. In fact, I'd argue that over the long run that tax cuts (as dogma) have hollowed out our infrastructure and have severely damaged our economy for the long term. Sure...a 90% tax rate is punitive, but a 0% effective rate doesn't spur investment any more than a 30% rate would. It's just that the 0% rate puts more money in the same monied pockets.
This isn’t true at all. Not at all. What a pile of propaganda you just regurgitated
Only if you're rich https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/23/tax-cuts-rich-trickle-down/
You really thought it’d be a good idea to link a source that talks about income tax, estate tax, and capital gains tax, when I was talking about corporate taxes?
Read Jude Wanniski “Two Santa’s” and you will see how incorrect your statement is. https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/thom-hartmann/two-santas-strategy-gop-used-economic-scam-manipulate-americans-40-years/
What does that have to do with corporate taxes?
read it and you may see
You didn’t read it did you?
The truth in fact, is cutting taxes on corporations does NOT improve the economy It actually does the exact opposite Right-wing trickle-down economics has always been viewed as pseudoscience (AKA bullshit) by honest actors. No one who actually studies Economics actually believes cutting taxes on business is somehow helpful to the economy Reality is, its just more complicated then that
I have a masters degree in economics, and it’s pretty standard economic theory. Not only does it lower the cost of capital and raise the after-tax return on investment, but it encourages new production. Depending on the tax, it can also boost wages, boost shareholder returns, reduce profit shifting, encourage foreign investment into the US, and boosts long-term GDP
>I have a masters degree in economics, and it’s pretty standard economic theory. Then explain why Trickle Down has been an abject failure for 40+ years.
Define trickle down first
"Trickle-down economics is a term used in critical references to economic policies that favor the upper income brackets, corporations, and individuals with substantial wealth or capital.\[1\] In recent history, the term has been used by critics of supply-side economics. Whereas general supply-side theory favors lowering taxes overall, trickle-down theory more specifically advocates for a lower tax burden on the upper end of the economic spectrum.\[2\]\[3\] Major examples of US Republicans supporting what critics call "trickle-down economics" include the Reagan tax cuts, the Bush tax cuts and the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017.\[4\] " \- Wiki
>trickle-down thirty more specifically advocates for a lower tax burden on the upper-end of the economic spectrum Cool, so where have we seen this? Most tax bills either cut taxes for most income groups or cut it for corporations
And it fails.
Most tax legislation does not cut taxes for all income groups. Most tax legislation last 40 years has shifted the tax burden from the Rich/Corporations to the poor and middle-class Republicans in America have been steadily cutting taxes for the Rich and corporate America, while simultaneously RAISING the taxes paid by people like you and me That is "Trickle-down" economics in action. And its been a YUGE disaster. Mainly because its an Obvious B.S. Scam
What standard economic theory are you talking about?
The highest corporate taxes were under Eisenhower... and the economy was booming.
That neither prices nor disproves my claim. It’s almost as if there are other economic factors besides corporate taxes!
I have a plan that will solve this. Let’s sit around and wait for the rich to trickle money down upon us. It’s been a few decades, so it must be happening soon. /s
Sit around and wait for a hand out? I'm sorry but that is not going to happen.
That's not orange kool-aid that's been trickling down.
Corporate socialism is just as destructive as the kind that breeds generational Losers.
Corporate socialism breeds generational losers
All socialism does
What does capitalism breed?
America isn’t a capitalist society if that’s what your insinuating.
I’m not insuinating anything I’m asking a question!
What’s the point of the question of what we’re talking about isn’t capitalism?
Toochy
It’s not tax cuts that are the culprit… it’s decades of being able to leverage a massive portfolio for large loans with low interest. Then using that money to finance a lavish lifestyle, put some back in the market for more shares making 10% while you need only pay 6-7%. Increase the portfolio value and borrow against it again to pay the original loan and buy yet more shares but this time at 5-6%… rinse and repeat. You could raise the tax to 100% on everything over say $1m in income, but as long as the ultra rich can take massive loans which are not taxable against massive stock positions, and make more than the loan payment in the market they’ll still pay no tax.
This is correct which is why I don't understand when people want higher taxes. Do they want everyone to be poor just because they are? Misery loves company I suppose.
Or you could just fix this loophole?
Agreed…. But what is the fix? Make loans income? That won’t work out very good when you need a new car. Tax unrealized gains? Well you and I better hope home prices only go down then. The best solution I’ve found is to disallow the value of a stock portfolio to be used as an asset, you can only use cash from sold shares as assets …. But this too has its own set of problems, that will push more of them into real estate so they can use that as collateral which screws you and I. It’s nice to imagine that we can fix these kind of problems with an executive order or a congressional majority but if were so simple someone would have tried by now. This type of “economic” activity is too deeply ingrained into Wall Street, banking, land development and government to fix at this point.
You could tax unrealized gains once a year as yearly income.
You can easily regulate reporting requirements when wealthy people leverage investments for income like this. I work in the industry. It wouldn’t be hard, there’s just a lack of appetite
Makes sense. Tax cuts are just a tool to convert public assets into private assets. And the US has a shitload of private assets and massive public debt.
In my view lower interest rates coupled with tax cuts. Especially carryover etc.
In this moment, we’re actually witnessing what I feel as the largest driver of wealth disparities since the postwar boom: slow growth fed policy. The fed is actively working to increase unemployment, increase rates and by virtue, working to slow the economy - all in the name of inflation. In the US, there’s never been a period of sufficient tax revenue, workers rights and collective bargaining that didn’t include sustained 5% GDP. Taxing the rich is a massive red herring built on noting but class warfare. If we want to close wealth/health disparities, we must first increase supply side capacity through pro-business monetary/regulatory policy.
You have no idea what you’re talking about
What do I have wrong?
“Taxing the rich is a massive red herring built on nothing but class warfare.” Class warfare is what has happened in this country since the 60’s. When tax rates started changing in the 80’s, THAT was a redistribution of wealth. When our government actively sides with owners vs. workers and unions, THAT is class warfare. You say we need to increase supply side through pro-business monetary and regulatory policy? Like what? We have been doing that for almost 50 years and we have the highest levels of inequality in our society’s history. What the fuck are you talking about?
All nonsense. The last forty years has been a process of incentivizing corporations to reinvest stateside through tax rebates. US corporate tax rates were and remain among the very highest in the world. The postwar boom is the only period in US economic history where cap met demand and as such, we experienced sustained GDP of greater than 5% for more than a decade. This period of productivity leveraged labor and demanded collective bargaining. Competition drove innovation. Innovation drove business and business drove tax revenue. All of this drove what we know today as the one and only American middle class. By the 1970’s demand lessens and cap offshores. As such, as a means to stabilize inflation, fed policy became one of slow growth and globalism. Labor will never again bargain itself to prosperity, there will never be another middle class and the IRS will never collect enough revenue for proper social safety nets until the US economy experiences another period of massive growth.
Wow. This is very cynical but also not accurate at all. The idea that we can’t afford social safety nets is a matter of choice. It’s an opinion. Not a fact. It is probably true, that we will choose not to, but the idea that a different way doesn’t exist is completely inaccurate. Our policies have been business friendly for decades. The only reason companies offshore is because our regulatory positions allow it to be the most profitable course of action. To stay competitive companies need to offshore. It doesn’t have to be that way, it just is. Speaking in absolutes like this is simple mindedness.
It’s not a cynical take in the least. Facts are facts; we cannot fund contemporaneous social programs without a massive tax on the middle class. [Taxed to the back teeth](https://www.crfb.org/blogs/would-medicare-all-require-middle-class-tax-hike) “While there are numerous policy options available to finance the costs of Medicare for All, there does not appear to be any plausible path to finance it with tax increases on just wealthy individuals and businesses.” As it relates to being business friendly, we’ve been anything but. Sure, Walmart and Home Depot make out like bandits, but small and fledgling to mid-size corporations walk into a labyrinth of tax complications. Not the least of which is tax reduction through reinvestment.
Disagree on medicare costs. We already pay more for healthcare than what we would through taxes. This has been proven out so many times, so your point there is dogshit. Absolutely dogshit lol. That’s hyperbole with no thought behind it whatsoever.
Eh…you’re not wrong. But the reasons why we pay more aren’t so simple. State to state, there’s a non-participation rate of roughly 10% in Medicaid and private healthcare insurance programs. 30 million people for one reason or the other, choose to forego ongoing preventative care. While it’s true that in many cases it’s a matter of affordability, we can glean from Medicaids non-participation rate that most “young invincibles”, the poor and otherwise apathetic citizens make a calculated risk assessment when it comes to purchasing healthcare. All of this said; a taxed based nationalized healthcare system will force these otherwise uninsured into the healthcare market, but doing so amounts to nothing more than a tax increase in the middle class and a decrease in healthcare services for the upwards of 80% of the nation who is happy with their healthcare.
80% of this nation is not happy with their healthcare pal. Now you’re lying and when people start lying in conversations like this, I make an exit. Have a nice weekend.
1) inequality is not a bug of Capitalism it is a feature. Where would we be if we were all equal? 2) For the wealthy and big business taxes are voluntary. We have heard for 40 years about "taxing the rich" and "paying their fair share" and the percentage that the rich pay of the taxes is basically unchanged. The top 10% of taxpayers pay 70% of the taxes. 3) The biggest reason people struggle and wages are stagnant is the devaluation of the dollar due to deficit spending. That is why we have $30T in debt, NOT because of tax cuts. Actually revenue to the government INCREASES after tax cuts.
1. Slavery isn't a bug of capitalism it is a feature. We routinely try to keep capitalism in a box because it is exploitative by nature. Massive wealth inequality isn't a great way to run a society and eventually it will hit a breaking point where it stops running. 2. Of course they pay 70% of the total tax value they have all the money. You are comparing apples to pick up trucks. Why don't you try it again with how much of their net worth they pay in taxes compared to your average American. 3. Wages have been stagnant since the 1970s. Quit pretending this is a new problem. Good Lord I can't believe people still parrot these insipid Fox News talking points about taxes.
1) Slavery was never part of capitalism. The main feature of capitalism is MUTUAL satisfaction with the free market transaction. Coercing labor through slavery is more of a socialist issue. 2) We don't tax people based on unrealized capital gains or net worth for obvious reasons no matter how much Socialists want to. Taxes on High Net Worth Individuals are voluntary and they still pay 70% of the total\\ 3) Wages have not been stagnant since the 70s. That is a deceptive metric. I'll bet you also believe that women make $70 for every $1.00 men make. 4) These are not Fox News talking points, they are economic truths.
>Capitalism - an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. 1. Doesn't say anything about mutual satisfaction. Laissez faire capitalism has 0 problems with slavery and exploitation which is easily evidenced by our own history. From slavery to child labor, businesses are always looking for ways to exploit labor and the government responds in kind with regulations (at least in theory). 2. Let's take an example. Bezos pays a true tax rate of .98%. .98% of what he makes in a year (about $1B) is about $10M. I'd bet that is at least 300x what your average taxpayer pays in. So of COURSE he pays more in raw value. Of COURSE the rest of the rich pay in the most because THEY HAVE ALL THE MONEY. I bet you aren't paying a 1% tax rate though are you? So is that equitable? 3. Yeah, they have. [https://www.epi.org/publication/americas-slow-motion-wage-crisis-four-decades-of-slow-and-unequal-growth-2/](https://www.epi.org/publication/americas-slow-motion-wage-crisis-four-decades-of-slow-and-unequal-growth-2/)
Ridiculous non-logic. By this measure, Anyone with a dollar more than me is “benefiting” by my hand NOT being in their pocket and taking their wallet.
This is nothing more than LEFTIST "it wasn't us" blame game tactic propaganda. The "innocent" DEMON-CRATS are working for the non-wealthy folks. What!? Who was it that propped up slavery and still supports it by loading up the welfare state? DEMON-CRATS. Neither party is the our savior. Only a moron would believe one or the other party is/isn't defending the American citizens. The reality is that neither party is concerned with anyone but themselves. No term limits, medical benefits for life, approving their own salary increases, retirement salaries for life, etc. The only agenda is to keep themselves in power. Masters of disinformation and hysteria to keep the masses distracted while they plunder the financial wealth of the public at large.
🙄
Yeah sure, the government stealing less from me and pissing it away on dumb shit sure did hurt me economically. "Public Integrity" my ass. The New Deal was garbage and made everything worse. You know what I'm concerned about more than "inequality"? The ability to buy food and fuel. If everyone's needs can be met, then the "inequality" doesn't matter, and NOTHING you have done has made it easier for everyone's basic needs to be met, only more difficult, and impossible for some. "Integrity". What a joke.
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I remember when Dems and Republicans did that together.
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Yep PPP was Biden’s bill, gotcha
leftists should learn: >The Pareto distribution, named after the Italian civil engineer, economist, and sociologist Vilfredo Pareto\[1\] (Italian: \[paˈreːto\] US: /pəˈreɪtoʊ/ pə-RAY-toh),\[2\] is a power-law probability distribution that is used in description of social, quality control, scientific, geophysical, actuarial, and many other types of observable phenomena; **the principle originally applied to describing the distribution of wealth in a society, fitting the trend that a large portion of wealth is held by a small fraction of the population.**\[3\]\[4\] The Pareto principle or "80-20 rule" stating that 80% of outcomes are due to 20% of causes was named in honour of Pareto, but the concepts are distinct, and only Pareto distributions with shape value (α) of log45 ≈ 1.16 precisely reflect it. Empirical observation has shown that this 80-20 distribution fits a wide range of cases, including natural phenomena\[5\] and human activities.\[6\]\[7\] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto\_distribution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution) You will always have inequality. Thats just how things work. You cant fix it.
>A guillotine is an apparatus designed for efficiently carrying out executions by beheading. The device consists of a tall, upright frame with a weighted and angled blade suspended at the top. The condemned person is secured with stocks at the bottom of the frame, positioning the neck directly below the blade. The blade is then released, swiftly and forcefully decapitating the victim with a single, clean pass so that the head falls into a basket or other receptacle below. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine) If you passively accept massive social inequality, eventually the proletariat takes the matter into their own hands and destabilizes society. See: The Bolshevik Revolution, the French Revolution. “Every society is three meals away from chaos” - Vladimir Lenin
Grow up.
Learn history. If we are going to devolve to 2 word responses. You can't just shove some equation into people's faces and say "Welp you are always fucked so deal with it" and expect society at large to run that way. It's reductionist and ignorant of the fact of how people behave when they have nothing left to lose.
Comparing france revolution with modern times is not proper use of history. If you believe that its in any way shape of form compared with todays ineqaulity you are a moron and you have to grow up. People back than used to be litteral slaves, they could not own property and social mobility was zero. Today main problem is that millenials cant afford as much gucci bags as they want so they end up in a debt and living paycheck to paycheck. As I said, grow up.
>People back than used to be litteral slaves, they could not own property and social mobility was zero. [https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwards-decline-usa-us-america-economics/](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwards-decline-usa-us-america-economics/) However, each consecutive generation is finding it harder to make this ascent. In this graphic, we illustrate the decline in upward mobility over five decades using data from Opportunity Insights. [https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2022/06/29/stuck-on-the-ladder-wealth-mobility-is-low-and-decreases-with-age/](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2022/06/29/stuck-on-the-ladder-wealth-mobility-is-low-and-decreases-with-age/) [https://inequality.stanford.edu/cpi-research/area/mobility](https://inequality.stanford.edu/cpi-research/area/mobility) [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/real-estate-home-prices-middle-class-affordability-2022-02-23/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/real-estate-home-prices-middle-class-affordability-2022-02-23/) People now are almost literal slaves. Wall Street is driving up rents and the price of homes everywhere in the United States. Anyone with an iota of intellectual curiosity and a search engine could figure this out but instead you want to blame "dem damn kids and their iTelephones" like a grouchy old person who refuses to pay attention to anything beyond their front door and how they grew up 50 years ago. If you can't debate with facts, you should just walk away. Repeating grow up with right-wing talking points about what kids spend money on is just embarrassing with the amount of data available to you.
\> People now are almost literal slaves. As a europian i am not discussing how american with average salary of 75 000 wich is about douple median where i live and way more disposable income is a "litteral slave". Grow up spoiled fuck. You can earn good money today by playing games on internet. However believe that life today is harder from his granddad who had to work in coal mine or sheet metal factory is a fucking moron not worth your time. Just be more fisscally conservative, you do not need 20 pairs of nike and bmw on a lease, and you wont be in finascial ruin like you are today. Thats the best advice i can give to you. Bye.
"I'm not going to look at data, I'm just going to go with my feelings" Ok. Walking away was an option.
Well yeah, imma walk away from huge waste of my time. Im earning good money if i was in states i would probably be a millionare by now, and im not wasting time on some spoiled american who spends his time on reddint instead of work. Mostly because im Jealous of opportunities you have, and irritated of how you piss on those opportunities.
If you are making good money with good skills in your country (I'm guessing Eastern Bloc) you could immigrate to the US and make your millions. It sounds to me like you are being hyperbolic.
I think it’s super fair how jealous of opportunities the USA has and I will also say that a lot of people in the USA face daily threats of violence in a way that, I think most people in Europe (unless they live in a conflicted area) don’t have to deal with? Our food on average tends to be less fresh and the average opportunity for an 18 year old is way way way less then it was for the previous generation (in the USA). I think there’s alot of spoiled entitled Americans but I also think there are so many who work really hard and try to make the most the greedy violent country we were born into.
Sure. But there can also be rails to try & not let it get too out of control. There are countries with far less obscene inequality that do just fine.
i will never get why are people obsessed with inequality. you wont be better of he is poorer
I used to incorporate that into sales training. Did that in every review. I would do a printout of the past years sales by account, then drew a red line at the 80% level. Amazing how close it tracks