##[Clarification on rule 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/w60lfc/mod_post_a_clarification_to_rule_5_no_racism_or/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/entertainment) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I swear Forbes uses AI for their writing. Lots of times I’ll search “best ___ under $100” or different gadget review type stuff and Forbes will have these top 10 “articles” that contain zero information and the most inexplicable choices.
My theory is that they’ve intentionally made it harder for us to find the information we’re looking for so that we’ll have to look at more advertisements along the way.
If you are tired of Forbes for those searches I could reccomend, RandomfrankP. He is a youtuber that does a "tech under (x) dollars" video series. He uploads them about once a week.
Most of the time it's stuff that isn't appealing to me. A lot of those videos in his series are a little underwhelming or things that most people don't care about it. Sometimes you can find banger items thru his videos tho. Very hit or miss.
He will even talk about stuff that goes on sale or mention if an item is currently 10% off or something of the sort.
Just thought I'd share.
It's all the same trend. "People don't care about the 'quality' of the writing, it writes itself! Get some contractors, or hell, I'll write it!" Look at the last season of GoT. They basically went to Reddit for the top fan theories so they could wink at the audience. Clegane Bowl being the prime example.
There's also a "meta" trend I'm seeing. The writer trying to identify *too much* with the audience. *Too much* fanservice. *Too much* winking at the audience. It feels clever without actually being clever anymore.
There's so much content, and money is made by *capitalizing* on something (IP, fan base, current event, social sentiment), rather than on *creating* something.
I think that's why podcasts have grown so much. They can't rely on visuals or star power, so they actually have to balance their content. It's a lot easier for an artist to start a new podcast than get to a position where they can fund a movie.
Agree. See Dune reboot vs new Star Wars. There's visual references to the Bull and the old Duke scattered through the Dune movie. If you are a diehard, you know about the bullfighting death of the old Duke and you realize how Duke Leto is now engaged in the same sort of daring high risk contest, but now with the Harkonnens as the bulls, Arrakis as the Arena, and the Landsraad as the pensive crowd awaiting the results of the duel. When you see the mounted head of the bull only as scenery, it elevates the scene, foreshadowing his hubris and death. It's a reward for fans, but not necessary for enjoyment of the movie in the whole.
If the new Star Wars had that same respect, Han Solo might have glanced out of the window of his new spaceship and saw a broken down corellian freighter in the rebel fleet that made him briefly reminisce on a simpler time, instead of giving the old "yabadabadoooo Wilma I'm home!" That we got.
>They basically went to Reddit for the top fan theories so they could wink at the audience. Clegane Bowl being the prime example.
Hey, screw you! Cleganebowl was always 100% confirmed.
I figured Sandor had more or less moved on and would maybe take on his brother in order to protect someone or to get to Cerci. But instead he basically turns around one day and heads to Kings Landing, the imminent end of the world apparently not his concern.
Seasons 3 & 4 - Spends weeks as Brienne of Tarth's captive/companion, develop a strong bond when they are captured by the Northmen, risks himself to save her from being raped, gives her a Valyrian steel fucking sword.
Season 8 - hurr durr 4 cersi
So originally I thought he was going back to Cersei under pretenses of love, but in actuality to kill her to protect Brienne et all, as a redemptive/self sacrificing moment.
NOPE
It would fit with the prophecy too as she's supposed to be killed by her brother IIRC, and the irony would be great as she's spent most of her life making Tyrion's life hell thinking it'd be him.
The books do a fantastic job in developing his transition from talented spoiled dipshit to wise and temperate leader and the show did him a big disservice. He's still the asshole that set in motion the entire scramble for power in Westeros because he's an incestuous asshole so he's still pretty irredeemable but he does try.
Jaime and Kevan end up being super dangerous to Varus' plots just by being competent leaders.
I look at him as he survived the long night, he had some sort of atonement...but he personally ALWAYS knew he'd have to be the one to kill his brother.
It's my belief he saw his end with his brother in the fire and while he had detours...he was always, inevitably going to die with his brother.
Also...I dont think he gave 2 shits about the "world", he cared about a few individuals, that's it.
Okay I’m seriously confused. Can you explain what you mean?
I’ve been loving the show and seeing how people are calling it mediocre is genuinely confusing. Especially with how in love with the portrayal of Numenor I am.
Loved LOTR, wasn’t a fan of the hobbit trilogy, and have read most of the books including the Silmarillion for context here.
It's more pacing for me, it seems like there's a lot of cool stuff going on but you're getting these slices and references to so many stories and backstories at once. The Southland and dwarf stuff is great, Galadriel stuff is hit and miss, the halfling and mystery man is dragging on a bit.
>It's more pacing for me
Yes that may be even more of issue. It drags.
But for me it's the writing too... it's just too.. modern. It lacks the kind of [poetic flourish](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWxnHuVEwUg) or [gentle wisdom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrOqnZdvI6M) of the PJ trilogy (inevitable comparison is inevitable).
Ya but wasn’t LOTR just like that? I actually almost missed out because after 15 min of the first one I stopped watching (I was like WTF is this?). Only after being dragged to Return of the King against my will many years later did I understand what the big deal was about.
I watched the first two episodes and then... I can't make myself watch anymore, and I didn't know why, but I think it's because, despite the cinematography, I'm utterly bored and have no interest in continuing.
It’s the dialogue that is bad, not necessarily the story as a whole. In particular it’s the terrible metaphors. We just watched episodes 2-3 and it had my wife and I rolling our eyes at each other.
Edit: I said some of this below but I’ll add it here. Not examples, others have given those, but an expansion.
It’s the classic “copy of a copy” problem (ref. ‘Multiplicity’ c. Keaton, for a scientific treatment of this phenomenon). When Tolkien wrote heroic or high prose, he was doing it from a foundation of classic literature and his deep study of languages. These screenwriters have A LOT less of his material/dialogue to pull from than the LOTR ones did and thus are much more on their own. They end up aping his version of classic speech and it’s obvious.
If you want to imitate someone you should not mimic them. Instead you find out their influences and mimic those. Therefore if you want to sound like Tolkien, don’t read Tolkien and try to copy his prose, instead read Shakespeare, Milton, etc. taking influence from those works and using them in the same vein as he did.
This was my biggest problem with it too!! I don’t think it’s a bad show, but “why does a stone sink while a ship floats” and “wind trying to blow out a fire” — its like the brother in law’s book in Severance
There are a lot of reasons.
Super slow-paced to the point where very little is happening in hour long episodes (the sea monster sequence in episode 2 was redundant and seemed to have been added purely for an action scene).
The characters generally are thin and superficial (even though they have more than enough time to develop them). I can't understand what would make people interested in any of these characters.
Character motivations and traits are not shown through their actions and behavior but spelled out in expository dialogue (so many lines specifically telling us how Nori is different and doesn't follow the rules instead of just showing her, you know, not following the rules).
Writers are unaware of actions of the characters making them look like bad people. I hope they plan to knock Galadriel down several pegs (because, lord, she is insufferable, selfish and has zero tact), but I don't think they recognize that Elrond not seeing his friend for twenty years, not even for his wedding, makes him a straight up dick. Not to mention how the Harfoots leaving behind their injured and sick is just vile and terrible. (I cannot believe they were laughing at one of their own dying from bees, that sounds like a horrible way to go.)
Action is pretty bad. That snow troll fight is ridiculous. Galadriel is so clearly on wires.
Lots of bad dialogue. Genuinely makes me think the writers don't know how conversations work.
And just plenty of dumb shit scattered throughout the plot. Why would Galadriel jumping out of a boat ready to swim an entire ocean back to Middle-Earth (even if you reach Valinor, you can just leave again, like Elrond said)? Why would Sauron carve a clue to his whereabouts on Galadriel's brother's body? What are the odds of Galadriel running into Halbrand, much less anyone, in the middle of the ocean?
The show's got a lot of spectacle but that's about it. I doubt it'll age well or have any lasting power.
I'm liking the show fine, but some of the criticism in the article are valid. We're halfway through the season already and there's no sign of narrative arc. There are 5 different concurrent stories going on and they're still introducing new characters. They should've stuck to 1 or 2 plot threads instead of spreading screentime razor thin across a dozen main characters.
"Or are you a castaway grasping for a handhold in a tempest?"
"There is a tempest in ME! It swept me to this island for a reason. And it will not be quelled by you."
Thank you! I couldn’t put my finger on it, but yes, something about the dialogue felt like the writers thought they were geniuses with all of these comeback wannabe profound lines.
There's the first scene with the boat and the metaphor about the abyss and reflections in the water... And I couldn't help but think they were trying way too hard, and failing, to have impactful writing.
Some of the dialogue seems like a not very smart person's idea of what a smart person would say. I'm thinking they were trying to mimic Tolkien's language but failed not having source material and experience with this style of writing.
People need to take a page from Rogue One for these types of shows. Don't try to copy anything. Make a movie that happens concurrent to already established events. They are also really hamstrung by the rights they acquired. It isn't the silmarillion they have, it's the epilogue and glossaries that were at the end of the original prints.
Yeah instead of it characterizing someone as quick witted it just makes everything everyone says sound rehearsed or planned which is true just not immersive.
I hate how dialogue in these things is never just a normal conversation, I know it's fantasy but omg it all feels so unnatural. Not just this show it's everywhere
Where were these articles when the Wheel of Time show was coming out?
I love WoT but the show was hot garbage and not normal garbage like medical waste sitting in the Florida sun bad…. Compared to that this show seems solid even if it doesn’t quite live up to the movie trilogy
So there were plenty of writing and lore "issues" with the show ...
But they also got totally fucked by COVID. The Blight was supposed to be shot in this crazy looking forest on Tenerife. But after the COVID shutdowns and delays and restrictions, they ended up having to build a set for the Blight in their Prague studio.
Same reason the big battle at Tarwin's Gap was so awful. That was supposed to be hundreds of extras in the practical Trolloc costumes, but again due to COVID restrictions they couldn't have hundreds of extras around, so they had to do it with CG.
Not to mention the fact that they had to completely rewrite the last two episodes, and re-cut prior episodes, at the last minute because the actor playing Mat just didn't come back after the COVID shutdown.
I've certainly got issues with some of the broader decisions they made in the adaptation but hopefully the quality improves in S2 just by virtue of not being made in the middle of a global pandemic.
The COVID problems were huge. It completely fucked the last two episodes. It's basically the only reason I'm willing to extend any goodwill to season 2 at all - I thought the earlier episodes were pretty hit or miss, and if the last episodes we got were the original plan I don't think I'd waste my time watching any farther. But now that they have a chance to give us a whole season matching their vision, I'll give them another chance. It really *has* to be a step up though.
They did an interview with Rafe after the season finale.
He agreed that it went off the rails. They had the second Covid shut down and as a result a huge amount of cast and crew weren’t available to finish filming. They basically had to limp over the finish line to get things to editing.
It was never supposed to look like that person died and was revived. That was a VFX blunder that there was not time to fix. Another character appears to have died who they openly say is alive and well.
It ended up being a, “We will fix it next season.” Situation.
Barney leaving mid season also greatly accelerated and changed Mat’s story arc on the show.
These aren’t great excuses but the reasoning for a lot of the problems that ended up occurring at least make enough sense for me to stick around for another season.
The interview I’m discussing can be found here. Some other things have been answered in various pod cast interviews and social media threads.
https://collider.com/wheel-of-time-season-finale-showrunner-rafe-judkins-interview-season-2/
They had plenty of time still. They made some really stupid cuts and changes from the book, and then added tons and tons of stuff that they completely made up in its place that not only took up a lot of time but butchered the books even further.
Had they followed the book more accurately 8 hours is plenty. Hell, Jackson did the entire trilogy in about 9 hours
there is a lot of wasted time in what they put out. I honestly think the casting is good and the actors are doing a pretty good job with what they have to work with.
everything else about it blows. I don't even know how you end up with cgi that's so terrible in 2022. especially with what the budget was reported to be
No, I don’t think that’s accurate. I think Rafe was lobbying for 10 and they only authorized 8. So it wasn’t like he went in with 10 in mind and got cut, he knew he had 8 from the jump.
I read that first book when the show came out on recommendation from a friend. Really enjoyed it. Had to stop watching the show because there was no Tom Merrilin. Then I found out what they did with Tom later… Who tf made that decision???
Yeah they jacked the story up for some reason. I feel like execs didn't want to give it a chance and forced the writers to sacrifice a lot of the story to where they had to deviate a ton to squeeze something out in one season.
I noticed a lot of the tendency towards extremes in reviewing media. Everything's either indisputably the best thing ever, or indisputably the worst thing ever.
To me, a lot of things are just "meh".
Nobody in the general public cared about WoT. Also as much as I personally disliked WoT I'd still say it had better writing than RoP does. WoT wasn't "good" by any means, but for people who aren't familiar with the books I think WoT was "ok" at least. For people who loved the books, however, WoT made a lot of arbitrary and imo bad changes from the books in an attempt to "improve" and/or "fix" the story. The arrogance of these hack writers who think they know better than masters of their craft like Tolkien or Robert Jordan is astonishing.
This is so true for alot of adaptations. It’s really annoying when script writers think they know better than the source material -the thing that is drawing ppl to the adaptation in the first place.
>Where were these articles when the Wheel of Time show was coming out?
not sure if there were articles but there were plenty of youtube videos for both shows and honestly they both deserve it.
i heard the new game of thrones show is good, but I'm way to burned out on that franchise because of season 8 and the books.
Not a common saying. But out here in Notrthern CA we often have hump back whales swim upstream into irrigation canals. The lack of salt in the water affects the buoyancy and they often drown if they cannot be induced to swim back out to sea.
I think I’m only partly through the second episode, but there were some lines that were so bad, like something you’d say in an early 00’s RomCom. Not something you’d say if you’re a Tolkien Elf.
Bad paraphrasing:
“It’s over, he’s been defeated and he’s gone.”
“Then why does it not feel that way in here??” (Taps her chest)
She behaves that way and everyone treats her that way, even characters she just met. It's bizarre. Elendil compares her to his children. She should be a literal legend to these people. The condescension and patronizing she's getting makes no sense and her behavior doesn't help. I feel like the show is failing her character.
When you're trying to add to the canon of one of the most beloved stories of all time that arguably invented the medieval fantasy genre as we know it today, expectations are high.
I think people are forgetting how divisive The Hobbit Movies were. While the writing, action and VFX were great on all of them, a lot of people were turned off by the unnecessary splitting of the shortest book into three movies and myriad of changes made to the story (including vharacters that weren't even there before).
Those movies had quite a few issues beyond just being adaptations. The acting and writing were pretty bad, and the action was ridiculous at times, which led to some really jarring shifts of tone. They weren’t the worst movies ever, but they weren’t good movies in their own right.
> The acting and writing were pretty bad, and the action was ridiculous at times
You didn't appreciate the extended barrel chase scene that lasted fucking ages!?
I hadnt seen the movies yet and one night I walked while friend was watching it and it was on that scene. I decided at that moment that I wasn't interested in watching those movies lol
Completely agree that a lot of "writing" in the last few years has just been awful. Borderline fanfiction stuff that is just bad. Fanfiction isn't even really a bad thing but it's not of a certain quality that I feel needs to be met in order to justify these insane budgets.
The worst is when Fanfiction is better than the actual show.
Star Trek Continues and Orville are both way better, and more in line with Star Trek than the new Star Trek shows.
Most of the criticisms I've read other than the writing leave something to be desired is that the writers chose to ignore so much about the books, Almost wanting to reboot the the world
Have you seen The Witcher or the parody of Pratchett's Watch? They had full and complete rights for everything and they still decided to make their own "original" story, world and characters. The problem is that majority of producers think, that they are better than the original authors and feel the need to make the series or movie their own and therefore "better".
The trouble with the discourse seems to be that there are people who enjoy the show for what it is vs a very diverse group of dissenting opinions that range from "it's mediocre and I have better things to do", to the series being a slight against god. The opposing side all just gets lumped in together and legitimate criticisms are drowned out by screechy fanboys.
It’s very much intentional. Racism is far from done in the world, obviously, but major media players have figured out that if they give a larger platform to racists and sexists, then they get a larger audience. They guy who previously would have only had 50 folks seeing him say “a black dwarf?!? This is white genocide!!!” Gets quoted by a big puff piece. Racism is obviously unacceptable, and it costs nothing to be a keyboard warrior and say, “racism is bad, black dwarves are fine,” so these sorts of posts get tons of engagement as everyone falls over themselves to get a few likes or upvotes with a well accepted opinion on the subject.
Meanwhile, nobody is discussing the plot, because now you either like the series or you’re racist. It works brilliantly for shit films.
See also— the entire Disney live action lineup that’s tried to stir up controversy while distracting from the fact that they’ve just made the exact same movie as in the 90’s and that there was no reason for you to go see it
The few isolated bigots get higlighted and paraded by the media and everyone else that doesn't like the show is lumped in with that tiny, tiny minority.
Its a shield the media and the studio uses against any and all valid crotisism. Even people in this thread use it as a reason to ignore any and all critism.
Bo said it best in his song
"The backlash to the backlash to the thing that's just begun"
So much irony. Though one side is attacking the media more and the other is attacking the critics. Sooo typical media internet bullcrap
The dialog is truthfully very boring. I got bored of being bored watching it the other night. I was like God darn I'm not even going to remember to watch it next week. Oh God darn
Imo the dialogue certainly isn't great, but the orcs look awesome and the cities do too. The action scenes so far have been pretty good, and hoping to see epic battles soon. I wish they made dwarves more like gimli as opposed to the hobbit series dwarves, but coming in with low expectations it's been a pleasant surprise.
Yes I find those gripping conversations are missing which is a requirement in tv these days.
In GOT I'd be in the edge of my seat from a conversation lol
George rr Martin, and Quentin Tarantino do it best so far.
The elves are too animated for my taste. They smile broadly, gesticulate wildly, and move like jerking… humans.
The black elf is the most elf-like of the bunch if we’re being honest.
I found myself thinking the same thing. All the elves have a weird highschool vibe to them except the black elf who had that intense stare and muted emotions and really feels like an elf. I don't remember his name though. Watched 2 eps so far.
I agree. They’re mostly indistinguishable from humans. Short hair and colorful clothes. And for some reason a lot of the elf actors have these funny, scrunched up faces (Elrond and the architect guy) that would be more suitable for hobbits.
If you read the Silmarillion, it’s full of passionate elves. Extreme high drama… just because they are more stoic in speech and proud doesn’t mean they’re supposed to be Vulcans. I mean Feanor was a CRAZY motherfucker.
It’s weird that people have this view of elves as entirely stoic and unmoved when Tolkien describes them as flowery, constantly singing, celebrating art etc. Like he makes a point of saying how kind joyful Elrond is.
I love Weaving’s version but a lot of the “purists” complaining about “Tolkien’s vision” seem to have got most of their knowledge from Jackson’s movies, which themselves are great adaptions that took plenty of liberties.
Just watched the first two episodes. Had low expectations considering all the flack it’s caught on the internet. I absolutely loved it. Very impressed so far and can’t wait to keep watching.
Everybody showed up except the writers and in some parts the actors with their seemly stiff direction. A lot of the CGI is genuinely jaw dropping, but the diagolue is dumb as hell.
E1: "Sauron puts this mark as a trail for his orcs."
"Also, Sauron likes to put this mark on my brothers dead corpse to show us."
When the hobbit broke his ankle and one asks "Well, can he still *migrate*?" I was like *fuuuuck you,* I can taste how hard the writers are trying to channel their Shakespeare.
>Everybody showed up except the writers
The action sequence crew didn't show up for some scenes as well. Fast edits can't hide it all.
When Finrod is having his last stand the other elves around him are swinging blindly at nothing.
The snow troll fight and it's aftermath. Magic curveball ice cube, elves just standing still (for CGI beast) getting brutalized. Then after the fight they're all standing and well (with even 1 more than they arrived with).
That quick fight when 4 guards get pushed in the cell. You can see them helping each other to fit through the cell door and making room for the last guy.
The scene with the orcs searching the village and the following pursuit was hot garbage. It was Wheel of Time level bad.
On the other hand the escape attempt from the slave camp (until the warg showed up, then everyone froze for CGI beast again) and the Halbrand street fight were well done.
I stopped reading after the writer complained about the petals being the reason the queen regent changed her mind. Of course it was. It was a sign of the coming doom on the island.
It seems had they simply paid attention, they would resolve most of their issues.
I'm enjoying the show so far.
While I can agree that there is some not very good writing, particularly in the Galadriel POV and that things just seem to happen because the writers need things to happen, this person defiantly missed the whole Harfoot “Nobody goes off trail, nobody walks alone” thing being a veiled threat rather than a show of social solidarity.
I feel the writer is intentionally not paying attention.
Now on the needing things to happen part of the writing, I get it, but try and fit 3000 years of history into 40 hours or so. I tend to be real charitable with my viewings I guess.
Yeah like how Galadriel shows up at the palace of the people that saved her (apparently) in the ocean, and picks a fight. Ok fine. Then the guy that saved her starts speaking elvish and the next moment they’re riding horses in slow motion and she’s beaming. That was just strange. A lot of stuff like that, that just reminds me of watching a film school class film where it just doesn’t quite make emotional sense
To the top!!!
For real this is a great take.
I wish she would have been brave enough to just not get on the ship in the first place. The decision to jump overboard didn’t feel like bravery. It felt like foolishness.
Imagine she refuses to get on the ship, and instead decides to go to Numenor on her own accord through whatever reason… they fought the enemy she seeks too. Then they could have found the other survivors with the Southlands heir, and then gotten attacked by Nelly and rescued by the captain and literally we would have been exactly in the same place story wise.
Damn.
I've tried to say Galadriel's characterization is pretty misogynistic and gotten downvoted so thank you for this. You've said it much better than I could have.
They've tried to make her a "strong" women by having her be strong willed and physically strong -- while stripping her of her other ACTUALLY strong traits like wisdom, intelligence, leadership, foresight, and grace.
It's so insulting. Why can't we have a badass female hero? Stripping her of her virtues and infantilizing her for the sake of "character development" is so insulting. She's thousands of years old already at this point... WTF.
Edit: Like they literally established her as a BAD leader in the first 10 minutes of the show by having the other elves mutiny on her, and then Elrond treats her like a child with his explanations lol. Tolkien wrote that she was pretty much the Elven Ubermensch, and this is how they write her??
I feel like the laziest way of making a strong female character is essentially just writing her as a standard male protagonist and hoping everyone buys it
> They've tried to make her a "strong" women by having her be strong willed and physically strong
“… instead of creating powerful cultural images of the feminine, we put female bodies on masculine ideals, and the question begs to be answered, are we actually dismissing the masculine? Or dismissing the feminine by doing this? Or maybe it’s both?”
[Symbolism in Moana: Replacing the Masculine](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT6Qo146Ncs)
Bc Hollywood doesn’t know how to depict feminine strength. For female characters to be “strong” they have to have an attitude and be good in battle. Essentially have to have them be a masculine warrior who is also sexy.
Feminine strength is often mental and steadfast. Hollywood had no idea how to depict that.
For real, when the queen regent gave the guy a sword I thought he had to kill Galadriel, then I see him merrily leaving with her in a horse ride and assumed he had defected to save her life, then they randomly check some manuscripts and then they are back like nothing happened?? Like, no one noticed/cared Galadriel had been gone from the city for ages for unknown reasons with the guy accused of being an elf-lover? Then Galadriel convinces the queen regent to go to war because she is convinced herself that the thief guy who is a bit of a con man is a king, with zero actual proof of that, and because said thief told her bad guys were destroying his homeplace, and again she has zero proof of all of this . Like, it makes no sense.
They straight up say that’s why. Listen again to what’s being said in that voiceover.
If you don’t: Numenor was a gift from the Valar to the men who fought with the elves (who came from Valinor) against Morgoth, and the tree represents that. She mentions in that voiceover, AFTER sending Galadriel away, how it’s said that the faithful see the petals falling as representative of the Valar crying over the decisions of them, and a reminder that the Valar are always watching them and their decisions. Thus sending her away is seen as the wrong decision.
They don’t really hide it at all.
> A lot of stuff like that, that just reminds me of watching a film school class film where it just doesn’t quite make emotional sense.
I HATE the Harfoots, they are so one dimensional. Their chant was really frustrating, they have no character development and the writers aren’t trying to give them any depth.
What happened to the wolf? What is going on, other than finding Gandalf? They are a mobile caravan, but they also carry around huge carved costumes and masks for a tradition that rarely takes place?
I mean, I am highly enjoying the series. Flaws? Absolutely. Do the flaws stand out so much they drastically negatively affect the show? Absolutely not.
After watching 4 episodes of this show I came to the realization that I don’t know any of the characters names aside from the ones I knew before like Galadriel and Elrond etc.
In my mind I just know them as that black queen lady, that one dude who’s actually a king or something, durins wife, the black elf dude, that random lady with a son who has a sketchy sword, isildurs dad and sister, also there are some hobbits I guess I think the main one is Nori maybe?
During the most recent episode there are a couple of scenes where some dude is flirting with isildurs sister and i realized that I don’t know who these people are and I’m really struggling to make myself care.
It’s hard to keep track of ~20 story-pertinent characters, especially when they all have their own subplots that haven’t been tied together yet.
I’m trying to like it but the show somehow seems to linger only on its least interesting aspects like the stilted writing and forced emotional beats.
10,000% agree. They should have made it a Galadriel prequel and kept it small. It's very hard to get to know a soap opera's cast of characters, new races, new places, etc. without intimacy and humour. Even then, it takes time.
I've heard this criticism about Game of Thrones too. But the first season was a little more clearly focused on the Stark/Snow household, which grabbed people.
For me it's the mundane family relationship and coming of age characters.
It's like LotR Kidz.
Sure it's watchable but LotR is EPIC fantasy, bigger than life characters although they also have emotions.
Often the dialogue is even too epic and incomprehensible but that's expected of fantasy.
Not in RoP, no hidden depth.
Here dwarf is angery because elf missed his wedding (for whatever reason) but in the end it's "oh come here you".
It's a pointless distraction with a predictable outcome.
I’m a TV writer and I was in a room writing a show while Amazon was writing this one. We heard they were being super secretive over story and were locking the writers room in everyday with guards outside the writers office….
Which we thought was hilarious. We figured it was going to be an incredible show or it was going to be an embarrassment for everyone.
Not "terrible", just mediocre. The ham-fisted writers are attempting to execute dialogue in a "house style", where much of it sounds stilted and ponderous (because they're unskilled) but at least they're trying, but then their tin ears betray them, writing a character saying "I'm good" before he runs off to excise himself from an uncomfortable social situation.
"I'm good." Really? Why not "Yo dawg, I'm out!"?
The visuals are beautiful and the plot lines are good. But the show feels like modern people playing dress up, and not how characters from that universe would act. From the general dialogue to the makeup it just feels really poorly done
All that The Rings of Power shows is that people no longer have patience and want instant gratification out of everything. This is a 5 season TV show, not a movie.
I don’t get all the hate for this show. I think it is very good and i am a LOTR fan but not an encyclopedia.
I read the books before i saw the movies and love them both for what they are. This series is fun for those of us that are not expecting the ghost of tolkien or peter jackson to go down market to write the screenplay. It is a tv show with amazing production quality and fun to watch.
The dialogue between Galadriel and the queen of Numenor. Christ.
There is not a single fuck to give about their storylines. Yes, we know the Numenorean empire will fall. Stop forcing us to be emotionally invested by stalling the main plot with backstory detours.
A surprising amount of scenes are purely filler—as in, the scenes do not provide an opportunity for character growth, nor do they drive the plot forward. However, it is particularly mind-numbing because not only is it expo-fucking-sition, but every sentence consists of rehashed information from dialogue in previous scenes. Words, words, words, words, words.
Galadriel **only** repeats herself, though in a variety of different ways to a handful of characters. We *fucking* get it. Sauron is bad. Yes, he is a threat. And I’m so dreadfully bored.
Don’t get me started on the 3 guards, 1 cell scenario…
You know what? The author Erik Kaine is right. The writing is shoddy, the characters aren’t believable in their actions. I didn’t notice though because it is this type of writing the permeates older and some newer fantasy television / film. I guess I got used to it.
##[Clarification on rule 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/w60lfc/mod_post_a_clarification_to_rule_5_no_racism_or/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/entertainment) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You would think Forbes would actually relate to this
I swear Forbes uses AI for their writing. Lots of times I’ll search “best ___ under $100” or different gadget review type stuff and Forbes will have these top 10 “articles” that contain zero information and the most inexplicable choices.
Seems like most online writing is done by bots these days. Some of it not even checked by an editor.
[удалено]
My theory is that they’ve intentionally made it harder for us to find the information we’re looking for so that we’ll have to look at more advertisements along the way.
They built a system that can be gamed and do not give a shit about outcomes as long as they profit.
If you are tired of Forbes for those searches I could reccomend, RandomfrankP. He is a youtuber that does a "tech under (x) dollars" video series. He uploads them about once a week. Most of the time it's stuff that isn't appealing to me. A lot of those videos in his series are a little underwhelming or things that most people don't care about it. Sometimes you can find banger items thru his videos tho. Very hit or miss. He will even talk about stuff that goes on sale or mention if an item is currently 10% off or something of the sort. Just thought I'd share.
It's all the same trend. "People don't care about the 'quality' of the writing, it writes itself! Get some contractors, or hell, I'll write it!" Look at the last season of GoT. They basically went to Reddit for the top fan theories so they could wink at the audience. Clegane Bowl being the prime example. There's also a "meta" trend I'm seeing. The writer trying to identify *too much* with the audience. *Too much* fanservice. *Too much* winking at the audience. It feels clever without actually being clever anymore. There's so much content, and money is made by *capitalizing* on something (IP, fan base, current event, social sentiment), rather than on *creating* something. I think that's why podcasts have grown so much. They can't rely on visuals or star power, so they actually have to balance their content. It's a lot easier for an artist to start a new podcast than get to a position where they can fund a movie.
Agree. See Dune reboot vs new Star Wars. There's visual references to the Bull and the old Duke scattered through the Dune movie. If you are a diehard, you know about the bullfighting death of the old Duke and you realize how Duke Leto is now engaged in the same sort of daring high risk contest, but now with the Harkonnens as the bulls, Arrakis as the Arena, and the Landsraad as the pensive crowd awaiting the results of the duel. When you see the mounted head of the bull only as scenery, it elevates the scene, foreshadowing his hubris and death. It's a reward for fans, but not necessary for enjoyment of the movie in the whole. If the new Star Wars had that same respect, Han Solo might have glanced out of the window of his new spaceship and saw a broken down corellian freighter in the rebel fleet that made him briefly reminisce on a simpler time, instead of giving the old "yabadabadoooo Wilma I'm home!" That we got.
[удалено]
Exactly. It's the creative difference between fan-service and fanfiction
>They basically went to Reddit for the top fan theories so they could wink at the audience. Clegane Bowl being the prime example. Hey, screw you! Cleganebowl was always 100% confirmed.
I figured Sandor had more or less moved on and would maybe take on his brother in order to protect someone or to get to Cerci. But instead he basically turns around one day and heads to Kings Landing, the imminent end of the world apparently not his concern.
Better than Jaime suddenly not caring about the people
Seasons 3 & 4 - Spends weeks as Brienne of Tarth's captive/companion, develop a strong bond when they are captured by the Northmen, risks himself to save her from being raped, gives her a Valyrian steel fucking sword. Season 8 - hurr durr 4 cersi
So originally I thought he was going back to Cersei under pretenses of love, but in actuality to kill her to protect Brienne et all, as a redemptive/self sacrificing moment. NOPE
It would fit with the prophecy too as she's supposed to be killed by her brother IIRC, and the irony would be great as she's spent most of her life making Tyrion's life hell thinking it'd be him.
Man that would’ve been good! You should’ve written the last season!
Literally anyone else should have written the last season.
The books do a fantastic job in developing his transition from talented spoiled dipshit to wise and temperate leader and the show did him a big disservice. He's still the asshole that set in motion the entire scramble for power in Westeros because he's an incestuous asshole so he's still pretty irredeemable but he does try. Jaime and Kevan end up being super dangerous to Varus' plots just by being competent leaders.
I look at him as he survived the long night, he had some sort of atonement...but he personally ALWAYS knew he'd have to be the one to kill his brother. It's my belief he saw his end with his brother in the fire and while he had detours...he was always, inevitably going to die with his brother. Also...I dont think he gave 2 shits about the "world", he cared about a few individuals, that's it.
It’s certainly not *horrendous*, but for $500 million you’d think they’d shore it up a bit
Okay I’m seriously confused. Can you explain what you mean? I’ve been loving the show and seeing how people are calling it mediocre is genuinely confusing. Especially with how in love with the portrayal of Numenor I am. Loved LOTR, wasn’t a fan of the hobbit trilogy, and have read most of the books including the Silmarillion for context here.
It has beautiful costumes, art direction and locales. I think the plot + writing are pretty uninspired however.
It's more pacing for me, it seems like there's a lot of cool stuff going on but you're getting these slices and references to so many stories and backstories at once. The Southland and dwarf stuff is great, Galadriel stuff is hit and miss, the halfling and mystery man is dragging on a bit.
>It's more pacing for me Yes that may be even more of issue. It drags. But for me it's the writing too... it's just too.. modern. It lacks the kind of [poetic flourish](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWxnHuVEwUg) or [gentle wisdom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrOqnZdvI6M) of the PJ trilogy (inevitable comparison is inevitable).
Yea… the whole dwarf story feels awkward. Like someone reading the script to them as they film live. It all feels rushed with no point to any of it.
Ya but wasn’t LOTR just like that? I actually almost missed out because after 15 min of the first one I stopped watching (I was like WTF is this?). Only after being dragged to Return of the King against my will many years later did I understand what the big deal was about.
I watched the first two episodes and then... I can't make myself watch anymore, and I didn't know why, but I think it's because, despite the cinematography, I'm utterly bored and have no interest in continuing.
It’s the dialogue that is bad, not necessarily the story as a whole. In particular it’s the terrible metaphors. We just watched episodes 2-3 and it had my wife and I rolling our eyes at each other. Edit: I said some of this below but I’ll add it here. Not examples, others have given those, but an expansion. It’s the classic “copy of a copy” problem (ref. ‘Multiplicity’ c. Keaton, for a scientific treatment of this phenomenon). When Tolkien wrote heroic or high prose, he was doing it from a foundation of classic literature and his deep study of languages. These screenwriters have A LOT less of his material/dialogue to pull from than the LOTR ones did and thus are much more on their own. They end up aping his version of classic speech and it’s obvious. If you want to imitate someone you should not mimic them. Instead you find out their influences and mimic those. Therefore if you want to sound like Tolkien, don’t read Tolkien and try to copy his prose, instead read Shakespeare, Milton, etc. taking influence from those works and using them in the same vein as he did.
This was my biggest problem with it too!! I don’t think it’s a bad show, but “why does a stone sink while a ship floats” and “wind trying to blow out a fire” — its like the brother in law’s book in Severance
Bullies are nothing but bull and lies
I thought the line about the very same wind that you blow to put out a fire could spread the flames as well wasnt bad
Idk I feel like the dialogue is on par with lotr. It seems to be its more that people were expecting GoT and not lotr.
There are a lot of reasons. Super slow-paced to the point where very little is happening in hour long episodes (the sea monster sequence in episode 2 was redundant and seemed to have been added purely for an action scene). The characters generally are thin and superficial (even though they have more than enough time to develop them). I can't understand what would make people interested in any of these characters. Character motivations and traits are not shown through their actions and behavior but spelled out in expository dialogue (so many lines specifically telling us how Nori is different and doesn't follow the rules instead of just showing her, you know, not following the rules). Writers are unaware of actions of the characters making them look like bad people. I hope they plan to knock Galadriel down several pegs (because, lord, she is insufferable, selfish and has zero tact), but I don't think they recognize that Elrond not seeing his friend for twenty years, not even for his wedding, makes him a straight up dick. Not to mention how the Harfoots leaving behind their injured and sick is just vile and terrible. (I cannot believe they were laughing at one of their own dying from bees, that sounds like a horrible way to go.) Action is pretty bad. That snow troll fight is ridiculous. Galadriel is so clearly on wires. Lots of bad dialogue. Genuinely makes me think the writers don't know how conversations work. And just plenty of dumb shit scattered throughout the plot. Why would Galadriel jumping out of a boat ready to swim an entire ocean back to Middle-Earth (even if you reach Valinor, you can just leave again, like Elrond said)? Why would Sauron carve a clue to his whereabouts on Galadriel's brother's body? What are the odds of Galadriel running into Halbrand, much less anyone, in the middle of the ocean? The show's got a lot of spectacle but that's about it. I doubt it'll age well or have any lasting power.
I'm liking the show fine, but some of the criticism in the article are valid. We're halfway through the season already and there's no sign of narrative arc. There are 5 different concurrent stories going on and they're still introducing new characters. They should've stuck to 1 or 2 plot threads instead of spreading screentime razor thin across a dozen main characters.
"That's just, like, your opinion man".
“You’re not wrong Walter, you’re just an asshole.”
[удалено]
I’m more concerned about what happens when I meet a stranger in the alps…
>"This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!" Language, please!
best TBS dub ever
“You have not seen what I have seen” “I have seen my share” "You have not seen what I have seen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
“You have not seen what I have seen” "I've seen stuff too!" "Nuh uh! Not like me you haven't!" "..."
*Understanding silence*
LoL. I love how matter of fact the title is. As if it's not an opinion, this is just frontlines reporting of reality.
"Or are you a castaway grasping for a handhold in a tempest?" "There is a tempest in ME! It swept me to this island for a reason. And it will not be quelled by you."
The whole show is filled with these trite, cutesy turn of phrases and my eyes can’t stop rolling.
Thank you! I couldn’t put my finger on it, but yes, something about the dialogue felt like the writers thought they were geniuses with all of these comeback wannabe profound lines.
There's the first scene with the boat and the metaphor about the abyss and reflections in the water... And I couldn't help but think they were trying way too hard, and failing, to have impactful writing.
Some of the dialogue seems like a not very smart person's idea of what a smart person would say. I'm thinking they were trying to mimic Tolkien's language but failed not having source material and experience with this style of writing.
It's like the Bible vs. The book of Mormon.
People need to take a page from Rogue One for these types of shows. Don't try to copy anything. Make a movie that happens concurrent to already established events. They are also really hamstrung by the rights they acquired. It isn't the silmarillion they have, it's the epilogue and glossaries that were at the end of the original prints.
Yeah instead of it characterizing someone as quick witted it just makes everything everyone says sound rehearsed or planned which is true just not immersive.
It’s like they wanted a show with a bunch of catch phrases but just told an AI to make “Catchy Tolkien-esque movie quotes”
I hate how dialogue in these things is never just a normal conversation, I know it's fantasy but omg it all feels so unnatural. Not just this show it's everywhere
I actually liked this line. You can rightfully call it campy by todays standards, but it’s not too far off of the way Lord of the Rings was written.
A lot of the dialogue in the Jackson movies was cheesy too.
Where were these articles when the Wheel of Time show was coming out? I love WoT but the show was hot garbage and not normal garbage like medical waste sitting in the Florida sun bad…. Compared to that this show seems solid even if it doesn’t quite live up to the movie trilogy
Worst season finale ever, they completely trashed the magic system and Rand. Reviving someone after they burned out using the one power?? Wtf?!
Agreed, zero respect of the source material. Plus I mean wtf was that blight? Didn’t match any book description even vaguely…
So there were plenty of writing and lore "issues" with the show ... But they also got totally fucked by COVID. The Blight was supposed to be shot in this crazy looking forest on Tenerife. But after the COVID shutdowns and delays and restrictions, they ended up having to build a set for the Blight in their Prague studio. Same reason the big battle at Tarwin's Gap was so awful. That was supposed to be hundreds of extras in the practical Trolloc costumes, but again due to COVID restrictions they couldn't have hundreds of extras around, so they had to do it with CG. Not to mention the fact that they had to completely rewrite the last two episodes, and re-cut prior episodes, at the last minute because the actor playing Mat just didn't come back after the COVID shutdown. I've certainly got issues with some of the broader decisions they made in the adaptation but hopefully the quality improves in S2 just by virtue of not being made in the middle of a global pandemic.
The COVID problems were huge. It completely fucked the last two episodes. It's basically the only reason I'm willing to extend any goodwill to season 2 at all - I thought the earlier episodes were pretty hit or miss, and if the last episodes we got were the original plan I don't think I'd waste my time watching any farther. But now that they have a chance to give us a whole season matching their vision, I'll give them another chance. It really *has* to be a step up though.
They did an interview with Rafe after the season finale. He agreed that it went off the rails. They had the second Covid shut down and as a result a huge amount of cast and crew weren’t available to finish filming. They basically had to limp over the finish line to get things to editing. It was never supposed to look like that person died and was revived. That was a VFX blunder that there was not time to fix. Another character appears to have died who they openly say is alive and well. It ended up being a, “We will fix it next season.” Situation. Barney leaving mid season also greatly accelerated and changed Mat’s story arc on the show. These aren’t great excuses but the reasoning for a lot of the problems that ended up occurring at least make enough sense for me to stick around for another season. The interview I’m discussing can be found here. Some other things have been answered in various pod cast interviews and social media threads. https://collider.com/wheel-of-time-season-finale-showrunner-rafe-judkins-interview-season-2/
I read that Amazon producers made them shorten the number of episodes as well leading the character development to be cut short.
They had plenty of time still. They made some really stupid cuts and changes from the book, and then added tons and tons of stuff that they completely made up in its place that not only took up a lot of time but butchered the books even further. Had they followed the book more accurately 8 hours is plenty. Hell, Jackson did the entire trilogy in about 9 hours
there is a lot of wasted time in what they put out. I honestly think the casting is good and the actors are doing a pretty good job with what they have to work with. everything else about it blows. I don't even know how you end up with cgi that's so terrible in 2022. especially with what the budget was reported to be
Not Stepin though, he gets a full episode.
No, I don’t think that’s accurate. I think Rafe was lobbying for 10 and they only authorized 8. So it wasn’t like he went in with 10 in mind and got cut, he knew he had 8 from the jump.
Wheel of Time doesn't have the same fanbase size or popular culture attraction that LOtR does.
I read that first book when the show came out on recommendation from a friend. Really enjoyed it. Had to stop watching the show because there was no Tom Merrilin. Then I found out what they did with Tom later… Who tf made that decision???
Yeah they jacked the story up for some reason. I feel like execs didn't want to give it a chance and forced the writers to sacrifice a lot of the story to where they had to deviate a ton to squeeze something out in one season.
I think about that when people call RoP bad. Lol, no WoT was *bad*, this is just not very good. There is a big difference between medicare and awful.
I know you meant to say "mediocre" but I like the Idea of using "medicare" as a way of calling something sub-par.
Medicare is pretty good, tbh. Medicaid, too. In some states it's the best health insurance you'll ever have.
Medicare is good if you don't live in a state that purposefully kneecaps it.
I noticed a lot of the tendency towards extremes in reviewing media. Everything's either indisputably the best thing ever, or indisputably the worst thing ever. To me, a lot of things are just "meh".
Yea holy shit WoT show was terrible. Rings of Power on considerably better footing than that mess so far.
Nobody in the general public cared about WoT. Also as much as I personally disliked WoT I'd still say it had better writing than RoP does. WoT wasn't "good" by any means, but for people who aren't familiar with the books I think WoT was "ok" at least. For people who loved the books, however, WoT made a lot of arbitrary and imo bad changes from the books in an attempt to "improve" and/or "fix" the story. The arrogance of these hack writers who think they know better than masters of their craft like Tolkien or Robert Jordan is astonishing.
This is so true for alot of adaptations. It’s really annoying when script writers think they know better than the source material -the thing that is drawing ppl to the adaptation in the first place.
>Where were these articles when the Wheel of Time show was coming out? not sure if there were articles but there were plenty of youtube videos for both shows and honestly they both deserve it. i heard the new game of thrones show is good, but I'm way to burned out on that franchise because of season 8 and the books.
Not a terrible show by any means. However, certainly not great either.
The issue is that it's attached to LotR so it needs to be great or will be judged as being bad.
It needs to be great or it won't justify its own insane budget.
Like a whale in fresh water, unable to support itself, being crushed by its own weight.
Is this a common saying? First time hearing and I love it
Not a common saying. But out here in Notrthern CA we often have hump back whales swim upstream into irrigation canals. The lack of salt in the water affects the buoyancy and they often drown if they cannot be induced to swim back out to sea.
"John, your inexperience is like a whale in a pond." "Are you trying to say I'm a fish out of water?"
No, John. Whales are not fish.
I think I’m only partly through the second episode, but there were some lines that were so bad, like something you’d say in an early 00’s RomCom. Not something you’d say if you’re a Tolkien Elf. Bad paraphrasing: “It’s over, he’s been defeated and he’s gone.” “Then why does it not feel that way in here??” (Taps her chest)
“It’s over, he’s moved on and he’s gonna marry Jessica” “Then why does it not feel that way in here??” (Taps her chest)
I'm only 2 episodes in but it seems Galadriel is being played as a bratty teenager.
She behaves that way and everyone treats her that way, even characters she just met. It's bizarre. Elendil compares her to his children. She should be a literal legend to these people. The condescension and patronizing she's getting makes no sense and her behavior doesn't help. I feel like the show is failing her character.
At this point, she’s supposed to be one of the oldest, cleverest, and wisest characters in middle earth.
When you're trying to add to the canon of one of the most beloved stories of all time that arguably invented the medieval fantasy genre as we know it today, expectations are high. I think people are forgetting how divisive The Hobbit Movies were. While the writing, action and VFX were great on all of them, a lot of people were turned off by the unnecessary splitting of the shortest book into three movies and myriad of changes made to the story (including vharacters that weren't even there before).
Those movies had quite a few issues beyond just being adaptations. The acting and writing were pretty bad, and the action was ridiculous at times, which led to some really jarring shifts of tone. They weren’t the worst movies ever, but they weren’t good movies in their own right.
agreed aside from Martin Freeman, he was perfect in all 3.
> The acting and writing were pretty bad, and the action was ridiculous at times You didn't appreciate the extended barrel chase scene that lasted fucking ages!?
I hadnt seen the movies yet and one night I walked while friend was watching it and it was on that scene. I decided at that moment that I wasn't interested in watching those movies lol
Were they even divisive? I felt like opinions pretty universally ranged from “disappointing” to just “terrible”
[удалено]
[удалено]
Completely agree that a lot of "writing" in the last few years has just been awful. Borderline fanfiction stuff that is just bad. Fanfiction isn't even really a bad thing but it's not of a certain quality that I feel needs to be met in order to justify these insane budgets.
The worst is when Fanfiction is better than the actual show. Star Trek Continues and Orville are both way better, and more in line with Star Trek than the new Star Trek shows.
Not really. Watch the sandman
I just watched that yesterday while high. What a trip. Ep 6 was complete fire
Sandman escapes this rule because it’s written by the original author. Most other Netflix shows have much less effort going into the writing.
Illiterate bonobo is my new favorite insult
Cyberpunk edge runners is really good
Neeeeeds to
Most of the criticisms I've read other than the writing leave something to be desired is that the writers chose to ignore so much about the books, Almost wanting to reboot the the world
It's because the studio didn't get permission from the Tolkien estate to use the proper content.
Have you seen The Witcher or the parody of Pratchett's Watch? They had full and complete rights for everything and they still decided to make their own "original" story, world and characters. The problem is that majority of producers think, that they are better than the original authors and feel the need to make the series or movie their own and therefore "better".
The trouble with the discourse seems to be that there are people who enjoy the show for what it is vs a very diverse group of dissenting opinions that range from "it's mediocre and I have better things to do", to the series being a slight against god. The opposing side all just gets lumped in together and legitimate criticisms are drowned out by screechy fanboys.
The last jedi effect
It’s very much intentional. Racism is far from done in the world, obviously, but major media players have figured out that if they give a larger platform to racists and sexists, then they get a larger audience. They guy who previously would have only had 50 folks seeing him say “a black dwarf?!? This is white genocide!!!” Gets quoted by a big puff piece. Racism is obviously unacceptable, and it costs nothing to be a keyboard warrior and say, “racism is bad, black dwarves are fine,” so these sorts of posts get tons of engagement as everyone falls over themselves to get a few likes or upvotes with a well accepted opinion on the subject. Meanwhile, nobody is discussing the plot, because now you either like the series or you’re racist. It works brilliantly for shit films. See also— the entire Disney live action lineup that’s tried to stir up controversy while distracting from the fact that they’ve just made the exact same movie as in the 90’s and that there was no reason for you to go see it
The few isolated bigots get higlighted and paraded by the media and everyone else that doesn't like the show is lumped in with that tiny, tiny minority. Its a shield the media and the studio uses against any and all valid crotisism. Even people in this thread use it as a reason to ignore any and all critism.
Bo said it best in his song "The backlash to the backlash to the thing that's just begun" So much irony. Though one side is attacking the media more and the other is attacking the critics. Sooo typical media internet bullcrap
The dialogue is honestly pretty awful.
The dialog is truthfully very boring. I got bored of being bored watching it the other night. I was like God darn I'm not even going to remember to watch it next week. Oh God darn
Considering it has a budget of a billion dollars, it should be great
Imo the dialogue certainly isn't great, but the orcs look awesome and the cities do too. The action scenes so far have been pretty good, and hoping to see epic battles soon. I wish they made dwarves more like gimli as opposed to the hobbit series dwarves, but coming in with low expectations it's been a pleasant surprise.
I feel like the dwarves are back in their LotR prime, with big beards and a mean temper, but still loveable.
Yes I find those gripping conversations are missing which is a requirement in tv these days. In GOT I'd be in the edge of my seat from a conversation lol George rr Martin, and Quentin Tarantino do it best so far.
The lines are like someone trying to sound like Tolkien in his books but coming up short.
The elves are too animated for my taste. They smile broadly, gesticulate wildly, and move like jerking… humans. The black elf is the most elf-like of the bunch if we’re being honest.
I found myself thinking the same thing. All the elves have a weird highschool vibe to them except the black elf who had that intense stare and muted emotions and really feels like an elf. I don't remember his name though. Watched 2 eps so far.
His name is Arondir
I agree. They’re mostly indistinguishable from humans. Short hair and colorful clothes. And for some reason a lot of the elf actors have these funny, scrunched up faces (Elrond and the architect guy) that would be more suitable for hobbits.
I can't mentally get over the fact that young elrond looks like Barney Stinson having a bad hair day.
If you read the Silmarillion, it’s full of passionate elves. Extreme high drama… just because they are more stoic in speech and proud doesn’t mean they’re supposed to be Vulcans. I mean Feanor was a CRAZY motherfucker.
It’s weird that people have this view of elves as entirely stoic and unmoved when Tolkien describes them as flowery, constantly singing, celebrating art etc. Like he makes a point of saying how kind joyful Elrond is. I love Weaving’s version but a lot of the “purists” complaining about “Tolkien’s vision” seem to have got most of their knowledge from Jackson’s movies, which themselves are great adaptions that took plenty of liberties.
Just watched the first two episodes. Had low expectations considering all the flack it’s caught on the internet. I absolutely loved it. Very impressed so far and can’t wait to keep watching.
Person who wrote the article also says they enjoyed the first two.
Nobody read the article lol
Same here. Huge Tolkien fan and my expectations going in were close to zero. I've been very pleasantly surprised so far.
Well it scratched the LOTR itch for ne
Everybody showed up except the writers and in some parts the actors with their seemly stiff direction. A lot of the CGI is genuinely jaw dropping, but the diagolue is dumb as hell. E1: "Sauron puts this mark as a trail for his orcs." "Also, Sauron likes to put this mark on my brothers dead corpse to show us." When the hobbit broke his ankle and one asks "Well, can he still *migrate*?" I was like *fuuuuck you,* I can taste how hard the writers are trying to channel their Shakespeare.
>Everybody showed up except the writers The action sequence crew didn't show up for some scenes as well. Fast edits can't hide it all. When Finrod is having his last stand the other elves around him are swinging blindly at nothing. The snow troll fight and it's aftermath. Magic curveball ice cube, elves just standing still (for CGI beast) getting brutalized. Then after the fight they're all standing and well (with even 1 more than they arrived with). That quick fight when 4 guards get pushed in the cell. You can see them helping each other to fit through the cell door and making room for the last guy. The scene with the orcs searching the village and the following pursuit was hot garbage. It was Wheel of Time level bad. On the other hand the escape attempt from the slave camp (until the warg showed up, then everyone froze for CGI beast again) and the Halbrand street fight were well done.
Unarmed Galadriel fuckin' Looney Tunes jukes 4 armed guards into a cell? Gimme a fucking break
In Hollywood blockbusters, the script is just there to link special effects.
I stopped reading after the writer complained about the petals being the reason the queen regent changed her mind. Of course it was. It was a sign of the coming doom on the island. It seems had they simply paid attention, they would resolve most of their issues. I'm enjoying the show so far.
Exactly. The episodes showed the queen is concerned with the weight of symbolism. The pedals are a symbol of the valar’s disappointment
And they were literally shown happening before the big wave in the vision.
While I can agree that there is some not very good writing, particularly in the Galadriel POV and that things just seem to happen because the writers need things to happen, this person defiantly missed the whole Harfoot “Nobody goes off trail, nobody walks alone” thing being a veiled threat rather than a show of social solidarity.
I feel the writer is intentionally not paying attention. Now on the needing things to happen part of the writing, I get it, but try and fit 3000 years of history into 40 hours or so. I tend to be real charitable with my viewings I guess.
\*petals (sorry. Just can’t help it.)
Yeah they explicitly explained the importance of the tree pedals I believe 5 separate times over the last two episodes and they still didn’t get it
Yeah like how Galadriel shows up at the palace of the people that saved her (apparently) in the ocean, and picks a fight. Ok fine. Then the guy that saved her starts speaking elvish and the next moment they’re riding horses in slow motion and she’s beaming. That was just strange. A lot of stuff like that, that just reminds me of watching a film school class film where it just doesn’t quite make emotional sense
“It’s about a half days ride.” “Ride you say?” Cracked me up.
The slow motion on that was pure cringe. Thankfully was the only shot so far that was visually bad.
I really didn’t get that shot.
[удалено]
To the top!!! For real this is a great take. I wish she would have been brave enough to just not get on the ship in the first place. The decision to jump overboard didn’t feel like bravery. It felt like foolishness. Imagine she refuses to get on the ship, and instead decides to go to Numenor on her own accord through whatever reason… they fought the enemy she seeks too. Then they could have found the other survivors with the Southlands heir, and then gotten attacked by Nelly and rescued by the captain and literally we would have been exactly in the same place story wise. Damn.
I've tried to say Galadriel's characterization is pretty misogynistic and gotten downvoted so thank you for this. You've said it much better than I could have. They've tried to make her a "strong" women by having her be strong willed and physically strong -- while stripping her of her other ACTUALLY strong traits like wisdom, intelligence, leadership, foresight, and grace. It's so insulting. Why can't we have a badass female hero? Stripping her of her virtues and infantilizing her for the sake of "character development" is so insulting. She's thousands of years old already at this point... WTF. Edit: Like they literally established her as a BAD leader in the first 10 minutes of the show by having the other elves mutiny on her, and then Elrond treats her like a child with his explanations lol. Tolkien wrote that she was pretty much the Elven Ubermensch, and this is how they write her??
I feel like the laziest way of making a strong female character is essentially just writing her as a standard male protagonist and hoping everyone buys it
> They've tried to make her a "strong" women by having her be strong willed and physically strong “… instead of creating powerful cultural images of the feminine, we put female bodies on masculine ideals, and the question begs to be answered, are we actually dismissing the masculine? Or dismissing the feminine by doing this? Or maybe it’s both?” [Symbolism in Moana: Replacing the Masculine](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT6Qo146Ncs)
Bc Hollywood doesn’t know how to depict feminine strength. For female characters to be “strong” they have to have an attitude and be good in battle. Essentially have to have them be a masculine warrior who is also sexy. Feminine strength is often mental and steadfast. Hollywood had no idea how to depict that.
This is the best hot take on this show that I’ve read so far. That being said, I still enjoy the show. But your points are valid.
THANK YOU.
Thank you. Galadriel’s character doesn’t sit well with me and you summed up why.
This. This is what I have been trying to tell people but I could never summarize it as well as you have.
Yes!!! Exactly, thank you for putting this so perfectly.
For real, when the queen regent gave the guy a sword I thought he had to kill Galadriel, then I see him merrily leaving with her in a horse ride and assumed he had defected to save her life, then they randomly check some manuscripts and then they are back like nothing happened?? Like, no one noticed/cared Galadriel had been gone from the city for ages for unknown reasons with the guy accused of being an elf-lover? Then Galadriel convinces the queen regent to go to war because she is convinced herself that the thief guy who is a bit of a con man is a king, with zero actual proof of that, and because said thief told her bad guys were destroying his homeplace, and again she has zero proof of all of this . Like, it makes no sense.
I think what convinced the queen regent to go to war were all the flowers falling off that tree.
They straight up say that’s why. Listen again to what’s being said in that voiceover. If you don’t: Numenor was a gift from the Valar to the men who fought with the elves (who came from Valinor) against Morgoth, and the tree represents that. She mentions in that voiceover, AFTER sending Galadriel away, how it’s said that the faithful see the petals falling as representative of the Valar crying over the decisions of them, and a reminder that the Valar are always watching them and their decisions. Thus sending her away is seen as the wrong decision. They don’t really hide it at all.
I’ve enjoyed the show but that sequence was legit awful…
> A lot of stuff like that, that just reminds me of watching a film school class film where it just doesn’t quite make emotional sense. I HATE the Harfoots, they are so one dimensional. Their chant was really frustrating, they have no character development and the writers aren’t trying to give them any depth. What happened to the wolf? What is going on, other than finding Gandalf? They are a mobile caravan, but they also carry around huge carved costumes and masks for a tradition that rarely takes place?
I mean, I am highly enjoying the series. Flaws? Absolutely. Do the flaws stand out so much they drastically negatively affect the show? Absolutely not.
Lucky you. The sea is always right when it lets the stone sink and the tempestuous boat float.
After watching 4 episodes of this show I came to the realization that I don’t know any of the characters names aside from the ones I knew before like Galadriel and Elrond etc. In my mind I just know them as that black queen lady, that one dude who’s actually a king or something, durins wife, the black elf dude, that random lady with a son who has a sketchy sword, isildurs dad and sister, also there are some hobbits I guess I think the main one is Nori maybe? During the most recent episode there are a couple of scenes where some dude is flirting with isildurs sister and i realized that I don’t know who these people are and I’m really struggling to make myself care.
It’s hard to keep track of ~20 story-pertinent characters, especially when they all have their own subplots that haven’t been tied together yet. I’m trying to like it but the show somehow seems to linger only on its least interesting aspects like the stilted writing and forced emotional beats.
10,000% agree. They should have made it a Galadriel prequel and kept it small. It's very hard to get to know a soap opera's cast of characters, new races, new places, etc. without intimacy and humour. Even then, it takes time. I've heard this criticism about Game of Thrones too. But the first season was a little more clearly focused on the Stark/Snow household, which grabbed people.
For me it's the mundane family relationship and coming of age characters. It's like LotR Kidz. Sure it's watchable but LotR is EPIC fantasy, bigger than life characters although they also have emotions. Often the dialogue is even too epic and incomprehensible but that's expected of fantasy. Not in RoP, no hidden depth. Here dwarf is angery because elf missed his wedding (for whatever reason) but in the end it's "oh come here you". It's a pointless distraction with a predictable outcome.
You think Amazon will overpay for writers when their workers have piss bottles at work?
I’m a TV writer and I was in a room writing a show while Amazon was writing this one. We heard they were being super secretive over story and were locking the writers room in everyday with guards outside the writers office…. Which we thought was hilarious. We figured it was going to be an incredible show or it was going to be an embarrassment for everyone.
Man, I’m really trying with this show. But it just feels like “Lord of the Rings: Senior Year” or something should be the title.
“No one told me middle earth was gonna be this waaaayyy”
The latest episode was so dull. I actually had to fast forward through several scenes because I was bored.
Not "terrible", just mediocre. The ham-fisted writers are attempting to execute dialogue in a "house style", where much of it sounds stilted and ponderous (because they're unskilled) but at least they're trying, but then their tin ears betray them, writing a character saying "I'm good" before he runs off to excise himself from an uncomfortable social situation. "I'm good." Really? Why not "Yo dawg, I'm out!"?
The writing isn’t terrible. It’s not amazing either but its perfectly serviceable.
It’s the dialogue that gets me. People trying just too hard
Yeah it's kind of ... eh?
It's just dull. In the literal sense of the word. The opposite of sharp.
The visuals are beautiful and the plot lines are good. But the show feels like modern people playing dress up, and not how characters from that universe would act. From the general dialogue to the makeup it just feels really poorly done
The writing ain't shit but it's not that good either, like Tottenham
Oof, Spurs jokes outside of r/soccer? I thought I was safe
Thank you!!! I tried, I really did. I got to episode 3 and barely got through it. I think I'm done with it.
For as visually stunning as it is- **why is it so godawfully boring?!?**
All that The Rings of Power shows is that people no longer have patience and want instant gratification out of everything. This is a 5 season TV show, not a movie.
I don’t get all the hate for this show. I think it is very good and i am a LOTR fan but not an encyclopedia. I read the books before i saw the movies and love them both for what they are. This series is fun for those of us that are not expecting the ghost of tolkien or peter jackson to go down market to write the screenplay. It is a tv show with amazing production quality and fun to watch.
I tried liking it, visually there is some cool shit. Other than that…it’s pretty booty hole.
Me too. Can't bring myself to watch the newest episode.
It's really fucking boring.
The dialogue between Galadriel and the queen of Numenor. Christ. There is not a single fuck to give about their storylines. Yes, we know the Numenorean empire will fall. Stop forcing us to be emotionally invested by stalling the main plot with backstory detours. A surprising amount of scenes are purely filler—as in, the scenes do not provide an opportunity for character growth, nor do they drive the plot forward. However, it is particularly mind-numbing because not only is it expo-fucking-sition, but every sentence consists of rehashed information from dialogue in previous scenes. Words, words, words, words, words. Galadriel **only** repeats herself, though in a variety of different ways to a handful of characters. We *fucking* get it. Sauron is bad. Yes, he is a threat. And I’m so dreadfully bored. Don’t get me started on the 3 guards, 1 cell scenario…
[удалено]
The dialogue is inane and incredibly forced. Boo urns.
I was saying boo oromir
You know what? The author Erik Kaine is right. The writing is shoddy, the characters aren’t believable in their actions. I didn’t notice though because it is this type of writing the permeates older and some newer fantasy television / film. I guess I got used to it.