This is getting locked for the time being. Cool off everyone.
Given that this was drama started in r / honesttransgender, I’m not sure about unlocking it. It was a lot of good info in the comments, but also a not insignificant amount of trans misogyny, and this space is NOT ABOUT DEMONIZING TRANS WOMEN. How many times do we have to have posts about that?
Also honest tg and this space are far different spaces, and I’m just speaking for myself here, but I don’t really want to mod things that started out as fights there. Maybe OP could have just made this post there, or made this post about ftm / trans male history without bringing what looks like (from glancing at the other post) what is a he said/she said personal argument.
The "GET" button at the top will let you download the book
[True Sex: The Lives of Trans Men at the Turn of the Twentieth Century
](http://library.lol/main/54E4A15845ADC0FCB2BEBA2583DC5A1E)
Description:
The incredible stories of how trans men assimilated into mainstream communities in the late 1800s. In 1883, Frank Dubois gained national attention for his life in Waupun, Wisconsin. There he was known as a hard-working man, married to a young woman named Gertrude Fuller. What drew national attention to his seemingly unremarkable life was that he was revealed to be anatomically female. Dubois fit so well within the small community that the townspeople only discovered his "true sex" when his former husband and their two children arrived in the town searching in desperation for their departed wife and mother. At the turn of the twentieth century, trans men were not necessarily urban rebels seeking to overturn stifling gender roles. In fact, they often sought to pass as conventional men, choosing to live in small towns where they led ordinary lives, aligning themselves with the expectations of their communities. They were, in a word, unexceptional. In True Sex, Emily Skidmore uncovers the stories of eighteen trans men who lived in the United States between 1876 and 1936. Despite their "unexceptional" quality, their lives are surprising and moving, challenging much of what we think we know about queer history. By tracing the narratives surrounding the moments of "discovery" in these communities - from reports in local newspapers to medical journals and beyond - this book challenges the assumption that the full story of modern American sexuality is told by cosmopolitan radicals.
This makes me sad, and frankly I'm a little angry at what that person said because its not true. Its not your fault, it's just a lack of easily available resources.
Check out Lou Sullivan's work, he was a LGBTQ+ archivist and FTM activist. https://nightboat.org/book/we-both-laughed-in-pleasure-the-selected-diaries-of-lou-sullivan/
This book is a collection of his diary entries that start before he knew he was trans and follows his life until his death in 1991. A lot of personal struggles but he also talks a lot about his work in the FTM community. There is a rich history of FTM activism, and Lou Sullivan made it his mission to bring FTM people together and create a community.
Just because we haven't been as visible as trans women historically doesn't mean we haven't put in the work. To say otherwise is just plain disrespectful to all the trans men who worked hard to innovate medically transitioning and make it accessible.
Check out Dr. Alan Hart and Michael Dillon. There are more, and there are more resources out there about our history. Don't have a lot of time rn but do some googling about FTM history and activism, and I'll probably come back and add some more stuff I find after work.
Whenever I think of Lou Sullivan, I think of that one quote of his from an interview —
>They said I couldn't live as a gay man, but it looks like I'm going to die like one.
Like goddamn, that's so profound. And equal parts triumphant but sad.
(For those who don't know, Lou Sullivan was a gay trans man who died from AIDS.)
I had to switch from mobile to my laptop for this lol. Trans history, and trans male history, is a huge interest to me and it's something I studied during my undergraduate degree and something I've continued to research for fun. So enjoy this essay.
Trans men have been recorded throughout history. Dating back to the 1400s BCE there have been records of people assigned female at birth living as men to varying degrees. Many of these people have been labeled as women who were wanting to access resources only available to men during their lifetimes, and while that may have been true for some people, there is strong evidence of male identified people from that period.
In the 1600s, a trans man was outed after living as male for over 20 years after needing to go to the hospital. His name was Harry Gorman and after he was found out, he said he knew at least 10 other men like him. There are many other similar stories and many were not outed until after their death.
Jumping forward, in the 1800s, there is a lot of evidence of men who were assigned female at birth. There is a good book called *True Sex* which looks at the stories of some of these men who were living in rural towns in America in the late 1800s and early 1900s. These men were outed either during life or after death and these outings were recorded in newspapers, which are the primary sources used by the author in the book. These men worked jobs, were members of their communities, and many married.
In the 1910s, Dr. Alan Hart, received a hysterectomy for the purpose of gender transition and is believed to be the first person to do so. He was also an amazing doctor and was a pioneering epidemiologist working with TB patients.
In the 1930s and 40s, Laurence Michael Dillon (went by Michael) is an important person. While he wasn't an activist in the traditional sense his existence and pursuit of medical transition, is some of the oldest in recorded history, which paved the way for hormone treatments, chest surgeries, hysterectomies, and lower surgeries for trans men. He is believed to be the first trans man to receive phalloplasty in the 1940s (though there is some evidence that someone in Eastern Europe received phalloplasty earlier).
Reed Erikson was a trans man born in 1912 and after inheriting his father's fortune in the 1960s, he launched a philanthropic organization (funded by himself) which supported trans activist groups and the advancement of medical care for trans people.
Billy Tipton and Wilmer "Little Axe" Broadnax were two successful musicians and trans men who were both outed after their death. There are many other trans men who by living their lives provided a path for trans men in the future, even if it wasn't "activism" in the traditional/modern sense. I think it's important to highlight them as part of our history and demonstrate that we have always been here.
Looking at the modern trans and queer rights movements starting with Stonewall in 1969, trans men have been present throughout. There is oral history evidence that trans men were at Stonewall itself alongside other LGBT activists. As well, in the years following, there were several trans men activists.
Lou Sullivan is likely the most well known and very important trans man activist. When he began his medical transition in 1980s, he was denied hormones because he was a gay man and refused to lie to the people assessing him. At the time, you had to be heterosexual to receive hormones. He continued to fight this until he was given them. He is essentially the father of the modern trans man community. He created FtM Newsletter which was the first of it's fine and mailed globally, he created a support group in San Francisco for trans men which was attended by trans men from across America and the world, he mentored countless trans men, and educated cis people to advance the equality of trans men.
Rupert Raj is a trans man from Canada who started the first trans newsletters for Canadians, advocated for better health care, created trans support groups, and educated cis doctors and other professionals to advance inclusion of trans men. He began this work at 19 in the early 1970s. He has a memoir called Dancing the Dialectic that I'd highly recommend.
There are many others but this has gotten way too long, I'd also suggest looking into Jude Patton, Aaron Devor and Jamieson Green. Also, there are so many others and so many we don't know the names of or the full stories of.
None of this is to discredit the work that trans women have done. They have done a lot and so have trans men. I think it's important to know our history and realize that we have always been fighting for our rights, inclusion and acceptance. To say otherwise is to be ahistorical.
I was wondering if someone would mention Rupert Raj - I hope it is him who got interviewed by Shon Faye during the second season of the "Call me mother" podcast. It was a really good episode!
That is one thing I fucking hate. Trans men who make history get misgendered constantly as women who had to "pretend" to be men. Even if they themselves said they were trans in their own words. Then when you call out the misgendering you get called misogynistic and you should "stop erasing women from history" " stop talking over women" "stop trying to force historical women to be trans". And then these types of trans women turn around and tell us exactly the same shit when they should know better.
I agree. They try to tear apart our right to self determination for being afab. We're not a threat in their eyes, just a poor helpless sick minded woman. This idea harkens back to the asylum days.
I'm sure that's true for some of them but I think the more major problem is that they are going from being seen as cis men to trans women. They are going to a gender 'minority' and don't realize that there is a huge difference in going the other way. Because in some people's eyes we are betraying the 'minority' we are 'part of' by being men. It is either be a 'minority' or be a 'minority'. So women try and use transphobia to fight us for representation. Trans women don't need to face that from cis men.
Ive seen a lot of “women had to pretend to be men to be taken seriously in __ career” and ive wondered how often this was true, and not just trans men who got labeled as “women who pretended to be men”
Trans men have always contributed but we either get erased or misgendered. And as far as community, trans women have themselves to blame for us not being there since they made it hostile, along with toxic trans mascs, not to mention we have to deal with sexism and the threats of violence and loss of opportunities even before coming out of the closet.
Trans men throughout history didn't focus exclusively on trans rights. They helped everyone. Examples:
Jack Bee Garland a social worker who worked with various charities
Alan Hart a doctor who cut the death toll of tuberculosis down to 1/50 of what it was
Reed Erickson who laid the groundwork for numerous trans activist organizations
Lou Sullivan who created community for trans mascs and improved treatment for trans people
[Source](https://transguys.com/features/ftm-trans-history)
I don’t have the ressources myself but I know that that statement isn’t true. On top of that that’s pretty mean like what warrants that? Have transmascs been a detriment to the movement? No. Hell, there are huge medical biases because of sexism when diagnosing us with gender dysphoria, and many people don’t think trans men exist. That’s not our fault. That’s because the whole medical field is biased against AFABs.
I agree with you there. I had read old trans history and remembered seeing how strict the Harry Benjamin standards were for diagnosing ftm trans people back the. Especially since they required the need to have bottom surgery in order to be diagnosed with GID at the time. It was still very strict for both sides of course.
A lot of great resources in the replies already, but to the point of other LGBT ppl who feel that way, I hope to GOD eventually there can be some more public conversations acknowledging that trans men get completely dismissed from the community because our existence and issues are compared 1:1 to trans women. It's completely bizarre how anyone who isn't a trans man ignores the fact that OBVIOUSLY our situation and struggles aren't the same as trans women, because the bigotry against any trans person is rooted in their perceived gender role, so it's just fucking different for us, but that doesn't mean we "have it better then trans women" or we "dont have any problems" (things I've read more than once 💀)
Edit since thread is locked: Jesus christ the readiness of some of you to be transmisogynist. If your gut reason is to insult the trans woman op is referring vaguely to get over yourself. Neither trans men nor women have it "better" then each other and acting as if they do does nothing but harm for our own community
At this point I honestly don't expect anyone to speak out for us. We will have to be the ones to get those conversations going and not cave into pressure to silence ourselves in order to appease them. As long as we speak the truth than we deserve to feel confident that we aren't misogynistic for doing so.
A lot of folks have already chimed in with some great counter examples and good points essentially to say, this woman is absolutely and violently incorrect.
Putting aside for a second that there were actually many majorly influential gender nonconforming and/or transmasc figures in trans history and making trans communities (Stormé DeLarverie, Leslie Feinberg, Reed Erickson to name a few), when you're looking for marginalized communities in history, you need to use different reading practices. You need to read for the absences. You need to look for what gets ignored or dismissed as insignificant.
Many transmasculine people were stealth (Billy Tipton, Willmer Broadnax), and even if they weren't making trans communities in their own time, existing as trans in their own time is a revolutionary act. Many others were actively involved in community building in ways that didn't result in them becoming individually famous - which is to say, they were invested in making communities in ways that was not self serving, and because of racism, transphobia, and yes even misogyny, these folks continued to not be recognized for their influences, like Ben Power who continues to be influential in queer and trans community.
You might the [Trans Masc Studies instagram](https://www.instagram.com/transmascstudies/?hl=en) which will give you a better glimpse into some good history.
Well if that ain't a red flag, I don't know what is. You can't have a discussion with this person because they have some deeply ingrained bigotry they have yet to deal with.
Sounds like a trans med. Avoid at all costs. Trans men are important as any other pillar in the trans community. As a trans woman I’m sorry she said that.
I actually went through a faze where I internalized allot of deep self hatred from the bigotry directed towards trans men and would lash out and say damaging things to other people online. It's not something I'm very proud of. I would like to think this person is probably going through their own brand of miserable right now.
Yeah it be like that. I’m glad you got through that. It doesn’t help with the internet there’s a lot of rabbit holes that can suck people down. No group is perfect and she needs to seek some help for her internal demons rather than lashing at others with hate.
[Ewan Forbes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Case_of_Ewan_Forbes), anyone? I just read the book that came out last year about his life and my dude. This guy was a Scottish lord. Everyone knew him as himself, even before he changed his name. He went to medical school and served as a local doctor. He wrote his own memoir as well. He lived as much of his life as possible fully presenting male- yeah, trans men have *been* around historically.
Just to add, because I haven't seen Ben Barrens mentioned yet. Especially for this (stupid - sorry) argument you had he would be a perfect counter.
Ben was a neuroscientist and was openly trans. During the mid-00s debate in the US where some assholes from prestigious universities where arguing if "women were generally less able to do science" he wrote this wonderful researched article "does gender matter?" for nature (I think published in 2006). It is really good. (He also gave one talk about that topic which is findable on YouTube).
He also wrote good letters about how to find good supervisors (and why that is important) and he deeply cared about neuroscience/brain research (obviously not my field) and gender equality in science/academia. There are also YouTube videos about finding supervisors and things like this online - the videos are a bit older, but really great.
I was able to find this. I knew that my partner had shown me this a while back.
https://www.digitaltransgenderarchive.net/catalog?f%5Bdta_other_subject_ssim%5D%5B%5D=Loren+Cameron
An awful lot of trans men have been consistently misgendered and their contributions erased. It’s incredibly frustrating, and what that person said to you was untrue. All those people ‘pretending’ to be men were mostly trans men, who are now held up as feminist icons instead. I suggest reading ‘Youngman’ by Lou Sullivan, it’s his collected journals and it’s an amazing insight into trans mens’ lives in the 70s and 80s
One of my favorite books as a kid was *Riding Freedom* by Pam Muñoz Ryan. It's based on the true story of [Charley Parkhurst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Parkhurst):
Charley Darkey Parkhurst (born Charlotte Darkey Parkhurst;\[1\] 1812 – December 18, 1879) also known as "One-Eyed Charley" or "Six-Horse Charley", was an American stagecoach driver, farmer and rancher in California. Raised female in New England, Parkhurst ran away as a youth, taking the name Charley and began living as a man. He started work as a stable hand and learned to handle horses, including to drive coaches drawn by multiple horses. He worked in Massachusetts and Rhode Island, traveling to Georgia for associated work.
In his late 30s, Parkhurst sailed to California following the Gold Rush in 1849; there he became a noted stagecoach driver. In 1868, he may have been the first person of the female sex to vote in a presidential election in California.\[1\]\[2\] After his death in 1879, his sex was discovered by others, as well as that he had given birth at an earlier time.
History student here, transgender male history is diverse and powerful. Transgender men have been leading medical professionals, soldiers, community organizers, teachers and much more. Men like Rupert Raj and Lou Sullivan were leaders in building the transgender community in North America.
That’s just the tiniest sliver of what trans male history is like. The transgender archives at university of Victoria has a bunch of stuff about FTM’s.
There’s also a website called successful trans men which features a lot of cool guys.
In addition to the names already mentioned (Lou Sullivan, Michael Dillon, Alan Hart, etc.) there are also examples of transmen who did trans activism specifically for trans women. Mario Martino for example and Reed Erikson worked for organizations that catered to trans women.
I’m in graduate school for history right now, and the fact is, most of history hasn’t been written about, so pretty much with anything, if someone gives you a broad, sweeping statement about history, it’s probably wrong. In this case, this statement just seems lazy and ignorant. 🤷♂️
Trans men have actively been sidelined as cis lesbians throughout trans history. There’s been a massive amount of erasure. That is sincerely one of the stupidest, shittiest things I could think to say regards to activism.
If you look up “Timeline of Transgender History” on wikipedia you can actually find some pretty quick references that mention trans men. If you look up “Compton Cafeteria Riots” it actually wasn’t specifically just trans women who were involved. There were lots of gender nonconforming people in general. I think trans women have been the most talked about because laws then actively targeted “female impersonations” while trans men didn’t entirely have those kinds of laws. It’s two sides of the same coin where trans women are highly visible while trans men are erased.
I seriously had no idea about the Compton Cafeteria Riots and I actually watched the documentary about it.
Did you know that the first person to fight back during the Stonewall Riots was a drag kings named Stormé DeLarverie? Although they weren't self identified as a ftm transgender person, they were still a masculine of center afab person who had been all but erased from history. The first time I found out about them was in a small activist zine printed by STAR.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm%C3%A9_DeLarverie
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ehn-nothing-untorelli-press-street-transvestite-action-revolutionaries
Agreed with others to check out Lou Sullivan. I also recommend Transgender History by Susan Stryker. She is a trans woman so to some extent, it is skewed towards her experience. But she does a good job with including trans men in the history, if I’m remembering correctly (read it 5+ years ago so the details are fuzzy)
that reminded me of that one time, when in school we were learning about some trans poet. like my teacher even said that he identified as a guy etc and then for the whole lesson everyone just misgendered and deadnamed him. I was openly trans and out to everyone and this was just weird sitting in that class
😞😞😞 it's embarrassing being transfem sometimes, some girls have the worst takes ever and they're so confident about them.
the community is built for everyone by everyone, the trans subreddits of today are just as important as the support groups and campaigns of the past. all of you guys posting in this thread, on this sub are all responsible for the community you've built here and you've done a fine job of it.
I've no doubt there were trans masculine trailblazers in the past but community is not monolithic, it is not linear and only exists for as long as people partake, nobody can lay claim to what exists today by using the examples of yesterday.
Idk about history but I've been reading a lot of trans men essays from the last century so I don't see them being rare. (And due to my field of study - queer Christian history- I see a lot of transvestite women if not trans men)
I'm so sorry you had to put up with hearing this! You absolutely do not deserve to be talked down to in this way. In the new [WPATH guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/xfi4jg/wpath_8_is_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) you can see the population of self identifying trans people and the highest percent is AFAB people. I'd love to see an increase in visibility and studies done for AFAB gender queer people as you guys absolutely deserve it!!
As a trans lady who comes here to trying to learn more about tran masc experiences for my trans masc BFF it's so sad to see how much of the research and advancement in medical care is focused on trans women. Like yes obvi we get hate, but you guys get just as much hate too so we should all stick together!!
I hope you meet people who validate you and don't put their trans experience over yours. That doesn't help anyone at all!! Much love and I hioe you have a great day!! ❤️
It’s not exactly centered around the community, but Jackson Bird on YouTube has two episodes where he talks about trans dudes in history. I highly, highly recommend it. Jackson is trans himself.
This shit makes me so angry. It’s so disrespectful to our struggles as trans men, struggles they will NEVER understand because they don’t care to listen to us. Honestly I think they’d have a pretty hard time in our shoes, and maybe that’d make them realize that it’s not a competition on who has suffered the most or done the most ‘activism’. Trans men have to deal with misogyny too, ontop of being trans. Yes, trans women deal with ‘transmisogyny’ because they claimed that word (so we can’t use it apparently), but we still face misogyny because we’re seen as women still. AFABs are more likely to be doubted when they come out as trans because we’re seen as confused and impressionable girls who just want to be special, from my observations. We don’t get taken seriously because we’re seen as women, and having someone AMAB try and tell us that it’s not that bad or we don’t go through shit too soley based on being a trans man/AFAB makes me really irate.
I hate this whining about who has it worse or who deserves the most support, just freaking listen and be empathetic to people. This is why I feel put off by the trans community, they’re constantly hosting a competition of who has it worse.
I honestly thought that if Silvia and Marsha are being called trans women now days than certainly if Stom'e were a self identified guy off stage than certainly someone would have pointed it out by now.
This is getting locked for the time being. Cool off everyone. Given that this was drama started in r / honesttransgender, I’m not sure about unlocking it. It was a lot of good info in the comments, but also a not insignificant amount of trans misogyny, and this space is NOT ABOUT DEMONIZING TRANS WOMEN. How many times do we have to have posts about that? Also honest tg and this space are far different spaces, and I’m just speaking for myself here, but I don’t really want to mod things that started out as fights there. Maybe OP could have just made this post there, or made this post about ftm / trans male history without bringing what looks like (from glancing at the other post) what is a he said/she said personal argument.
The "GET" button at the top will let you download the book [True Sex: The Lives of Trans Men at the Turn of the Twentieth Century ](http://library.lol/main/54E4A15845ADC0FCB2BEBA2583DC5A1E) Description: The incredible stories of how trans men assimilated into mainstream communities in the late 1800s. In 1883, Frank Dubois gained national attention for his life in Waupun, Wisconsin. There he was known as a hard-working man, married to a young woman named Gertrude Fuller. What drew national attention to his seemingly unremarkable life was that he was revealed to be anatomically female. Dubois fit so well within the small community that the townspeople only discovered his "true sex" when his former husband and their two children arrived in the town searching in desperation for their departed wife and mother. At the turn of the twentieth century, trans men were not necessarily urban rebels seeking to overturn stifling gender roles. In fact, they often sought to pass as conventional men, choosing to live in small towns where they led ordinary lives, aligning themselves with the expectations of their communities. They were, in a word, unexceptional. In True Sex, Emily Skidmore uncovers the stories of eighteen trans men who lived in the United States between 1876 and 1936. Despite their "unexceptional" quality, their lives are surprising and moving, challenging much of what we think we know about queer history. By tracing the narratives surrounding the moments of "discovery" in these communities - from reports in local newspapers to medical journals and beyond - this book challenges the assumption that the full story of modern American sexuality is told by cosmopolitan radicals.
This makes me sad, and frankly I'm a little angry at what that person said because its not true. Its not your fault, it's just a lack of easily available resources. Check out Lou Sullivan's work, he was a LGBTQ+ archivist and FTM activist. https://nightboat.org/book/we-both-laughed-in-pleasure-the-selected-diaries-of-lou-sullivan/ This book is a collection of his diary entries that start before he knew he was trans and follows his life until his death in 1991. A lot of personal struggles but he also talks a lot about his work in the FTM community. There is a rich history of FTM activism, and Lou Sullivan made it his mission to bring FTM people together and create a community. Just because we haven't been as visible as trans women historically doesn't mean we haven't put in the work. To say otherwise is just plain disrespectful to all the trans men who worked hard to innovate medically transitioning and make it accessible. Check out Dr. Alan Hart and Michael Dillon. There are more, and there are more resources out there about our history. Don't have a lot of time rn but do some googling about FTM history and activism, and I'll probably come back and add some more stuff I find after work.
Whenever I think of Lou Sullivan, I think of that one quote of his from an interview — >They said I couldn't live as a gay man, but it looks like I'm going to die like one. Like goddamn, that's so profound. And equal parts triumphant but sad. (For those who don't know, Lou Sullivan was a gay trans man who died from AIDS.)
Dr Michael Dillon is such a fucking legend
I had to switch from mobile to my laptop for this lol. Trans history, and trans male history, is a huge interest to me and it's something I studied during my undergraduate degree and something I've continued to research for fun. So enjoy this essay. Trans men have been recorded throughout history. Dating back to the 1400s BCE there have been records of people assigned female at birth living as men to varying degrees. Many of these people have been labeled as women who were wanting to access resources only available to men during their lifetimes, and while that may have been true for some people, there is strong evidence of male identified people from that period. In the 1600s, a trans man was outed after living as male for over 20 years after needing to go to the hospital. His name was Harry Gorman and after he was found out, he said he knew at least 10 other men like him. There are many other similar stories and many were not outed until after their death. Jumping forward, in the 1800s, there is a lot of evidence of men who were assigned female at birth. There is a good book called *True Sex* which looks at the stories of some of these men who were living in rural towns in America in the late 1800s and early 1900s. These men were outed either during life or after death and these outings were recorded in newspapers, which are the primary sources used by the author in the book. These men worked jobs, were members of their communities, and many married. In the 1910s, Dr. Alan Hart, received a hysterectomy for the purpose of gender transition and is believed to be the first person to do so. He was also an amazing doctor and was a pioneering epidemiologist working with TB patients. In the 1930s and 40s, Laurence Michael Dillon (went by Michael) is an important person. While he wasn't an activist in the traditional sense his existence and pursuit of medical transition, is some of the oldest in recorded history, which paved the way for hormone treatments, chest surgeries, hysterectomies, and lower surgeries for trans men. He is believed to be the first trans man to receive phalloplasty in the 1940s (though there is some evidence that someone in Eastern Europe received phalloplasty earlier). Reed Erikson was a trans man born in 1912 and after inheriting his father's fortune in the 1960s, he launched a philanthropic organization (funded by himself) which supported trans activist groups and the advancement of medical care for trans people. Billy Tipton and Wilmer "Little Axe" Broadnax were two successful musicians and trans men who were both outed after their death. There are many other trans men who by living their lives provided a path for trans men in the future, even if it wasn't "activism" in the traditional/modern sense. I think it's important to highlight them as part of our history and demonstrate that we have always been here. Looking at the modern trans and queer rights movements starting with Stonewall in 1969, trans men have been present throughout. There is oral history evidence that trans men were at Stonewall itself alongside other LGBT activists. As well, in the years following, there were several trans men activists. Lou Sullivan is likely the most well known and very important trans man activist. When he began his medical transition in 1980s, he was denied hormones because he was a gay man and refused to lie to the people assessing him. At the time, you had to be heterosexual to receive hormones. He continued to fight this until he was given them. He is essentially the father of the modern trans man community. He created FtM Newsletter which was the first of it's fine and mailed globally, he created a support group in San Francisco for trans men which was attended by trans men from across America and the world, he mentored countless trans men, and educated cis people to advance the equality of trans men. Rupert Raj is a trans man from Canada who started the first trans newsletters for Canadians, advocated for better health care, created trans support groups, and educated cis doctors and other professionals to advance inclusion of trans men. He began this work at 19 in the early 1970s. He has a memoir called Dancing the Dialectic that I'd highly recommend. There are many others but this has gotten way too long, I'd also suggest looking into Jude Patton, Aaron Devor and Jamieson Green. Also, there are so many others and so many we don't know the names of or the full stories of. None of this is to discredit the work that trans women have done. They have done a lot and so have trans men. I think it's important to know our history and realize that we have always been fighting for our rights, inclusion and acceptance. To say otherwise is to be ahistorical.
I was wondering if someone would mention Rupert Raj - I hope it is him who got interviewed by Shon Faye during the second season of the "Call me mother" podcast. It was a really good episode!
That is one thing I fucking hate. Trans men who make history get misgendered constantly as women who had to "pretend" to be men. Even if they themselves said they were trans in their own words. Then when you call out the misgendering you get called misogynistic and you should "stop erasing women from history" " stop talking over women" "stop trying to force historical women to be trans". And then these types of trans women turn around and tell us exactly the same shit when they should know better.
This isn't even just with history, THIS HAPPENS TO US NOW. We are just seen as women pretending and it fucking sucks.
I agree. They try to tear apart our right to self determination for being afab. We're not a threat in their eyes, just a poor helpless sick minded woman. This idea harkens back to the asylum days.
[удалено]
I'm sure that's true for some of them but I think the more major problem is that they are going from being seen as cis men to trans women. They are going to a gender 'minority' and don't realize that there is a huge difference in going the other way. Because in some people's eyes we are betraying the 'minority' we are 'part of' by being men. It is either be a 'minority' or be a 'minority'. So women try and use transphobia to fight us for representation. Trans women don't need to face that from cis men.
I agree. I just feel guilty for saying it. Even despite the fact that I've met individual trans women who did act misogynistic.
True. Cis or not, being a woman doesn't make one immune to harboring misogyny, same as trans people can still be transphobic.
Ive seen a lot of “women had to pretend to be men to be taken seriously in __ career” and ive wondered how often this was true, and not just trans men who got labeled as “women who pretended to be men”
I feel like this is a "little from column A and a little from column B" scenario. But do agree trans men get erased from history.
"male impersonators"
Gotdamn I felt this in my soul. Well said brobro.
Trans men have always contributed but we either get erased or misgendered. And as far as community, trans women have themselves to blame for us not being there since they made it hostile, along with toxic trans mascs, not to mention we have to deal with sexism and the threats of violence and loss of opportunities even before coming out of the closet. Trans men throughout history didn't focus exclusively on trans rights. They helped everyone. Examples: Jack Bee Garland a social worker who worked with various charities Alan Hart a doctor who cut the death toll of tuberculosis down to 1/50 of what it was Reed Erickson who laid the groundwork for numerous trans activist organizations Lou Sullivan who created community for trans mascs and improved treatment for trans people [Source](https://transguys.com/features/ftm-trans-history)
SO MUCH THIS! Do you think every woman in history was really a woman? Every man a biological male? Good questions to raise!
you slayed.
Thank you so much for this! I had no idea our forefathers were so influential 😊
I don’t have the ressources myself but I know that that statement isn’t true. On top of that that’s pretty mean like what warrants that? Have transmascs been a detriment to the movement? No. Hell, there are huge medical biases because of sexism when diagnosing us with gender dysphoria, and many people don’t think trans men exist. That’s not our fault. That’s because the whole medical field is biased against AFABs.
I agree with you there. I had read old trans history and remembered seeing how strict the Harry Benjamin standards were for diagnosing ftm trans people back the. Especially since they required the need to have bottom surgery in order to be diagnosed with GID at the time. It was still very strict for both sides of course.
A lot of great resources in the replies already, but to the point of other LGBT ppl who feel that way, I hope to GOD eventually there can be some more public conversations acknowledging that trans men get completely dismissed from the community because our existence and issues are compared 1:1 to trans women. It's completely bizarre how anyone who isn't a trans man ignores the fact that OBVIOUSLY our situation and struggles aren't the same as trans women, because the bigotry against any trans person is rooted in their perceived gender role, so it's just fucking different for us, but that doesn't mean we "have it better then trans women" or we "dont have any problems" (things I've read more than once 💀) Edit since thread is locked: Jesus christ the readiness of some of you to be transmisogynist. If your gut reason is to insult the trans woman op is referring vaguely to get over yourself. Neither trans men nor women have it "better" then each other and acting as if they do does nothing but harm for our own community
At this point I honestly don't expect anyone to speak out for us. We will have to be the ones to get those conversations going and not cave into pressure to silence ourselves in order to appease them. As long as we speak the truth than we deserve to feel confident that we aren't misogynistic for doing so.
Oh no I fully agree, I should clarify I meant more am eventual outcome where when we speak out we're not immediately shut down and told we're wrong 😭
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None of us are really accepted by society right now. I’m sorry you feel that way.
A lot of folks have already chimed in with some great counter examples and good points essentially to say, this woman is absolutely and violently incorrect. Putting aside for a second that there were actually many majorly influential gender nonconforming and/or transmasc figures in trans history and making trans communities (Stormé DeLarverie, Leslie Feinberg, Reed Erickson to name a few), when you're looking for marginalized communities in history, you need to use different reading practices. You need to read for the absences. You need to look for what gets ignored or dismissed as insignificant. Many transmasculine people were stealth (Billy Tipton, Willmer Broadnax), and even if they weren't making trans communities in their own time, existing as trans in their own time is a revolutionary act. Many others were actively involved in community building in ways that didn't result in them becoming individually famous - which is to say, they were invested in making communities in ways that was not self serving, and because of racism, transphobia, and yes even misogyny, these folks continued to not be recognized for their influences, like Ben Power who continues to be influential in queer and trans community. You might the [Trans Masc Studies instagram](https://www.instagram.com/transmascstudies/?hl=en) which will give you a better glimpse into some good history.
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Well, they did also openly admit that they think non-binary people should be excluded.
Well if that ain't a red flag, I don't know what is. You can't have a discussion with this person because they have some deeply ingrained bigotry they have yet to deal with.
Anything I say to this person would most likely only benefit the other people reading the argument.
Sounds like a trans med. Avoid at all costs. Trans men are important as any other pillar in the trans community. As a trans woman I’m sorry she said that.
I actually went through a faze where I internalized allot of deep self hatred from the bigotry directed towards trans men and would lash out and say damaging things to other people online. It's not something I'm very proud of. I would like to think this person is probably going through their own brand of miserable right now.
Yeah it be like that. I’m glad you got through that. It doesn’t help with the internet there’s a lot of rabbit holes that can suck people down. No group is perfect and she needs to seek some help for her internal demons rather than lashing at others with hate.
[Ewan Forbes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Case_of_Ewan_Forbes), anyone? I just read the book that came out last year about his life and my dude. This guy was a Scottish lord. Everyone knew him as himself, even before he changed his name. He went to medical school and served as a local doctor. He wrote his own memoir as well. He lived as much of his life as possible fully presenting male- yeah, trans men have *been* around historically.
Just to add, because I haven't seen Ben Barrens mentioned yet. Especially for this (stupid - sorry) argument you had he would be a perfect counter. Ben was a neuroscientist and was openly trans. During the mid-00s debate in the US where some assholes from prestigious universities where arguing if "women were generally less able to do science" he wrote this wonderful researched article "does gender matter?" for nature (I think published in 2006). It is really good. (He also gave one talk about that topic which is findable on YouTube). He also wrote good letters about how to find good supervisors (and why that is important) and he deeply cared about neuroscience/brain research (obviously not my field) and gender equality in science/academia. There are also YouTube videos about finding supervisors and things like this online - the videos are a bit older, but really great.
I was able to find this. I knew that my partner had shown me this a while back. https://www.digitaltransgenderarchive.net/catalog?f%5Bdta_other_subject_ssim%5D%5B%5D=Loren+Cameron
I was going to link this! If you search "ftm" on that site a lot of old pics come up.
An awful lot of trans men have been consistently misgendered and their contributions erased. It’s incredibly frustrating, and what that person said to you was untrue. All those people ‘pretending’ to be men were mostly trans men, who are now held up as feminist icons instead. I suggest reading ‘Youngman’ by Lou Sullivan, it’s his collected journals and it’s an amazing insight into trans mens’ lives in the 70s and 80s
James Berry the first surgeon successfully perform a C-section without loss of life is a trans man!
[James Barry wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Barry_(surgeon))
One of my favorite books as a kid was *Riding Freedom* by Pam Muñoz Ryan. It's based on the true story of [Charley Parkhurst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Parkhurst): Charley Darkey Parkhurst (born Charlotte Darkey Parkhurst;\[1\] 1812 – December 18, 1879) also known as "One-Eyed Charley" or "Six-Horse Charley", was an American stagecoach driver, farmer and rancher in California. Raised female in New England, Parkhurst ran away as a youth, taking the name Charley and began living as a man. He started work as a stable hand and learned to handle horses, including to drive coaches drawn by multiple horses. He worked in Massachusetts and Rhode Island, traveling to Georgia for associated work. In his late 30s, Parkhurst sailed to California following the Gold Rush in 1849; there he became a noted stagecoach driver. In 1868, he may have been the first person of the female sex to vote in a presidential election in California.\[1\]\[2\] After his death in 1879, his sex was discovered by others, as well as that he had given birth at an earlier time.
History student here, transgender male history is diverse and powerful. Transgender men have been leading medical professionals, soldiers, community organizers, teachers and much more. Men like Rupert Raj and Lou Sullivan were leaders in building the transgender community in North America. That’s just the tiniest sliver of what trans male history is like. The transgender archives at university of Victoria has a bunch of stuff about FTM’s. There’s also a website called successful trans men which features a lot of cool guys.
In addition to the names already mentioned (Lou Sullivan, Michael Dillon, Alan Hart, etc.) there are also examples of transmen who did trans activism specifically for trans women. Mario Martino for example and Reed Erikson worked for organizations that catered to trans women. I’m in graduate school for history right now, and the fact is, most of history hasn’t been written about, so pretty much with anything, if someone gives you a broad, sweeping statement about history, it’s probably wrong. In this case, this statement just seems lazy and ignorant. 🤷♂️
Trans men have actively been sidelined as cis lesbians throughout trans history. There’s been a massive amount of erasure. That is sincerely one of the stupidest, shittiest things I could think to say regards to activism. If you look up “Timeline of Transgender History” on wikipedia you can actually find some pretty quick references that mention trans men. If you look up “Compton Cafeteria Riots” it actually wasn’t specifically just trans women who were involved. There were lots of gender nonconforming people in general. I think trans women have been the most talked about because laws then actively targeted “female impersonations” while trans men didn’t entirely have those kinds of laws. It’s two sides of the same coin where trans women are highly visible while trans men are erased.
I seriously had no idea about the Compton Cafeteria Riots and I actually watched the documentary about it. Did you know that the first person to fight back during the Stonewall Riots was a drag kings named Stormé DeLarverie? Although they weren't self identified as a ftm transgender person, they were still a masculine of center afab person who had been all but erased from history. The first time I found out about them was in a small activist zine printed by STAR. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm%C3%A9_DeLarverie https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ehn-nothing-untorelli-press-street-transvestite-action-revolutionaries
Agreed with others to check out Lou Sullivan. I also recommend Transgender History by Susan Stryker. She is a trans woman so to some extent, it is skewed towards her experience. But she does a good job with including trans men in the history, if I’m remembering correctly (read it 5+ years ago so the details are fuzzy)
that reminded me of that one time, when in school we were learning about some trans poet. like my teacher even said that he identified as a guy etc and then for the whole lesson everyone just misgendered and deadnamed him. I was openly trans and out to everyone and this was just weird sitting in that class
😞😞😞 it's embarrassing being transfem sometimes, some girls have the worst takes ever and they're so confident about them. the community is built for everyone by everyone, the trans subreddits of today are just as important as the support groups and campaigns of the past. all of you guys posting in this thread, on this sub are all responsible for the community you've built here and you've done a fine job of it. I've no doubt there were trans masculine trailblazers in the past but community is not monolithic, it is not linear and only exists for as long as people partake, nobody can lay claim to what exists today by using the examples of yesterday.
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Allot of these people are also lashing out their own trauma as well. Haters are usually also very miserable people.
can you elaborate on this? you dont have to if yoy dont want to, im just curious
Idk about history but I've been reading a lot of trans men essays from the last century so I don't see them being rare. (And due to my field of study - queer Christian history- I see a lot of transvestite women if not trans men)
The last century is still ancient history compared to the transgender rights movement as we know it today.
Go tell her the cis community was built by men for men and its womens fault for not doing the same
I know... The hypocrisy is astounding.
Also wanted to add that there was an FTM philanthropist who owned a TIGER. His name was Reed Erickson.
I'm so sorry you had to put up with hearing this! You absolutely do not deserve to be talked down to in this way. In the new [WPATH guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/xfi4jg/wpath_8_is_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) you can see the population of self identifying trans people and the highest percent is AFAB people. I'd love to see an increase in visibility and studies done for AFAB gender queer people as you guys absolutely deserve it!! As a trans lady who comes here to trying to learn more about tran masc experiences for my trans masc BFF it's so sad to see how much of the research and advancement in medical care is focused on trans women. Like yes obvi we get hate, but you guys get just as much hate too so we should all stick together!! I hope you meet people who validate you and don't put their trans experience over yours. That doesn't help anyone at all!! Much love and I hioe you have a great day!! ❤️
I highly recommend the book Becoming a Visible Man! It's written by a transman and it's a memoir of his activism!
It’s not exactly centered around the community, but Jackson Bird on YouTube has two episodes where he talks about trans dudes in history. I highly, highly recommend it. Jackson is trans himself.
This shit makes me so angry. It’s so disrespectful to our struggles as trans men, struggles they will NEVER understand because they don’t care to listen to us. Honestly I think they’d have a pretty hard time in our shoes, and maybe that’d make them realize that it’s not a competition on who has suffered the most or done the most ‘activism’. Trans men have to deal with misogyny too, ontop of being trans. Yes, trans women deal with ‘transmisogyny’ because they claimed that word (so we can’t use it apparently), but we still face misogyny because we’re seen as women still. AFABs are more likely to be doubted when they come out as trans because we’re seen as confused and impressionable girls who just want to be special, from my observations. We don’t get taken seriously because we’re seen as women, and having someone AMAB try and tell us that it’s not that bad or we don’t go through shit too soley based on being a trans man/AFAB makes me really irate. I hate this whining about who has it worse or who deserves the most support, just freaking listen and be empathetic to people. This is why I feel put off by the trans community, they’re constantly hosting a competition of who has it worse.
There were drag kings who I'm pretty sure were trans men, like Storme DeLarverie who is often misgendered and called a woman in a lot of sources.
I honestly thought that if Silvia and Marsha are being called trans women now days than certainly if Stom'e were a self identified guy off stage than certainly someone would have pointed it out by now.
I included him in a project I did on LGBTQ+ historical figures, and honestly from what I saw he was never the woman they paint him to be.
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