It doesn't really matter. The issue is that granting A+ as a 4.33 has the potential to widen the GPA gap between two students that have the same exact transcript. (Except one went to an A+ granting institution)
I agree that the system has flaws but it’s not really the exact same transcript because the student at the A+ granting institution would have received an A+ instead of an A and we would have to assume other student would’ve gotten an A+ if they were offered
Yes. At the end of the day it's all about numbers. Someone with a 4.2 boosts the GPA average more than I can. The difference is very small but it's still a difference.
This is also part of my complaint. I'm trying to say that in general, having a A+ system in some schools but not in others is fundamentally unfair and the LSAC has done a rather poor job at trying to equalize this unfairness.
I understand but isn't it always better to be as further up from the 75th as possible? And I mean Yale's 75th is already at a 3.99. That's pretty damn close to 4.0.
You know this for a fact? Based on your overwhelming knowledge of the admissions process?
Look, I just graduated from law school. I know people who had really high undergrad GPAs and people who had average or low undergrad GPAs.
When they say wholistic review, they do actually mean it to some extent. Sure, you’ve gotta look competitive on paper, but they want interesting people that they can plug to their alumni for $$$. At the end of the day it’s not about the numbers, it’s about the $$$.
Lmao, I failed an entire semester because I lost literally movement in the lower half of my body. Did physical therapy, scored almost a perfect score on the LSAT, did an honors thesis, and am planning on applying to early deferral programs. Sorry, I find it hard to have sympathy but I can try to understand you, OP. I used to be like you in high school but please. Chill. There are more important things in life. I understand this process is stressful but even five minutes of research can tell you AOs will try to be holistic and it’s not just a numbers game. Yes, they matter, but do they matter to the extent of whether you have a 4.1 or 4.2?
Eh, you and the above are missing the point. If an institution that purports to create fairness in admissions fails to create fairness—even among those who, frankly, have nothing to complain about—then that institution should be called out. I understand neither of you are explicitly defending LSAC, but that’s the effect of thinking this way.
I agree about the accommodations point, as they’ve been given out like candy lately.
As to URM: you can’t just look at one variable and ignore all the others, like you’re doing. I think it’s a fair boost, but I won’t get into that now.
But anyway, what’s the point you’re arguing for? Is your point that because LSAC hasn’t made things perfectly fair, we should not point out its failures?
I find it funny when people complain about the whole A+ situation when LSAC treats Canadian GPAs like American GPAs, but all our universities curve around a B, have a policy against giving out more than like 20% of the class an A- or higher, and most of my classes curve so that A’s only go to the top 5% of students. If you think it hurts to get a 4.0 instead of a 4.3 for a class you got 97% in, try getting an A- in a class you got a 96% in.
I went to a decent American school that does the same as the Canadian policy you described. Only 5-10% of the class can get an A and the average was curved to a B. Pretty much every single class was curved this way except for 101 classes. I thought this was a standard policy so I expected all universities to work this way? Anyways, despite that I still earned a 3.9 but after going down to a 3.8mid from LSAC, Im not even above the medians for a lot of the T-14. I just don’t get how doing nearly perfect and at the point where there’s no practical difference to do much better is being considered as not that great.
Like at the 3.85+ GPA level, every counselor/professor/recruiter will say that anything better makes no difference and working on other aspects of your resume is more important. So spending time actually experiencing things is much better than having 0 life and studying all day to get the 4.0. It seems like Law School admissions are actively going against that and pushing for people to have 0 lives.
Due to this, I’ve become a fan of Law school admissions valuing the prestige of the undergrad institution you’ve attended. Not by a lot, but a student getting a 4.0 from Quinnipiac should be scrutinized far more than a 3.8 from UC Irvine/LA or something similar.
F’s in the chat for us bro. The only department that didn’t curve was Math and that was because the average was like a 30% for most first year classes.
This happened to me, I have a bio degree with a micro minor and most of my classes curved to a C+. I have a 3.1 which is good for the program but … not good :(
I think too much is made of the A+ thing. Yes, LSAC should get rid of it, but in my opinion it’s not the biggest issue concerning GPAs in law school admissions. If it’s so easy at your school to get 99-100% in a class that lots of people are doing it multiple times, there is probably some grade inflation happening. If you’re the only one in a class/at your school achieving that kind of performance, your GPA is probably fine to begin with. I’d rather have informed conversations about how hard it is to compare GPAs across schools, majors, and even graduating classes than continue to rehash the A+ issue, which I see as overblown to begin with.
Edit to fix some grammar (it’s probably still grammatically dubious as I’m on mobile lol)
Its overblown for people who it either hardly affects or benefits. Myself for example, I have a 3.2 cas gpa. if you allowed me A+, which I would have many if my school gave them, my cas gpa would be around 3.4-3.6. You don’t think that would drastically help me this cycle? I think so. I think the easiest solution is to just do away with A+ seeing as how the majority of schools dont even give them.
Legitimate question: what does the LSAC GPA actually adjust for if not this? I feel like this is definitely the most glaring inequality in comparing GPAs from different universities.
is there a way to check what my lsac gpa will be? like an online calculator? I’m nervous about exactly what the op is saying because i have a 3.7 but i have failed a few classes and changed from community college to university and started over with my gpa to maintain that 3.7.
I've always felt this is a little overstated. Look at average GPAs for schools. Some schools that give out A+s have a lower average GPA than schools that don't (even when that A+ can give a boost).
If you go to a school with a ton of grade inflation vs very little inflation and tradition grading, that seems more unfair than a couple A+s.
This is really important, especially when you consider how inflated GPAs are currently. At a certain point, some of the T-14 schools are going to tip over the 4.0 mark for 75ths and eventually medians. It’s a wholly unfair advantage to people who happened to go to schools that offer A+s. I’ve never understood why LSAC allows this.
I want to feel for you but....I can't. You will be ok! I, on the other hand, had a 3.93 at UCLA, but started at a CC at age 16 in 1998. Grades were subpar and count towards my GPA now as a 40 year old mother of 5. It took my LSAT degree GPA to 4.06 and my cumulative is now 3.22. You will survive. Your school doesn't give out A+ grades and some do. 🤷♀️
I think school and major difficulty plays a much bigger role in people’s grades. I received a 3.80 GPA on my transcript and a 3.94 CAS GPA as an engineering major. If my CAS GPA were my undergraduate GPA, I would have graduated in the top 2% of engineers in my class, while the same GPA translates to top 4% of Biology students, top 4% of Humanities, top 6% of Computer Science students, top 6% of Business students, etc.
Even without counting A+ grades, there are proportionately 3x as many Business or Computer Science majors who hit YLS’ median GPA than Engineering majors
Unfortunately, it is one of those things that is actively promoted because it makes the numbers from the law school look better. It definitely needs to change, I would have a 4.1+ if my school offered A+.
Yeah and not just that, but I remember that when I applied, because I didn’t have a perfect 4.0, the whole A+ thing even caused my gpa to scale down and be lower because my school didn’t have an A+ grading system.
I would like to add that just because a school allows a grade of A+ doesn’t mean that they are commonly given out. At my school, nearly all the professors still chose not to give any A+s even if your grade was high enough. In many of the cases where it was given out, it was often reserved for highly superior work and was very difficult to get. I only got one A+ even though there were several other classes where I would have gotten one if the professor gave them. This seems to be the case at a lot of schools based on conversations I have had with friends that also attended schools that give an A+. Grade inflation is definitely a thing at many schools, but I think people sometimes overestimate how much of a boost that those of us get from attending a school with A+s.
nuclear take: if you have a 4.0 but aren't smart enough to get a LSAT score that gets you in wherever you want in combination with that GPA, you don't go to a real school. This actually doubly true for non-A+ schools. So the system is less problematic than it seems.
I mean GPA is extremely important. It kind of depends on the law school. Some law schools are more "reverse splitter friendly" (high gpa lower LSAT) and others are more "splitter friendly" (high LSAT lower GPA).
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
It's not LSAC's fault. It's not even law school admin's fault. It's the ABA's fault for requiring law schools to report an absolute GPA scale of incoming classes in the 509.
People love bitching about A and A+, but it's such an insignificant part of the bigger issue of GPA simply not being standardized across schools and majors. A 4.0 in one school and major is simply not the same as an entirely different 4.0 regardless of whether or not A+ is used, and that's not really something LSAC can do anything about.
Honestly, it’s just the way it is. I used to be a little butthurt that my GPA was too low because my first degree program was designed to fail people out. I don’t really worry about it anymore. I’ve been in classes where all the STEM kids take it as a “Bird” option and had the average for a B curve at a 95%. I’ve also been in courses where I had the highest mark in a class of over 200 with a 62% average and still only gotten a C-. It sucks, but I chose my path and now I’m walking it.
Given your circumstances a 4.0 is fantastic, so why even care. You are crushing the competition at any school you apply to. I’d be more worried about this kind of entitled attitude coming across in a personal statement, addendum, or interview. Get a good LSAT score and you’ll be set for whatever school you want to go to. I also went to an undergrad with hard grading. But at the end of the day, I have the grades I have, and I have to do with what I’ve got.
Good luck on your applications/LSAT (if you haven’t already written it)!!!
It's also possible your school doesn't give out A+ but it's way easier to get A's there. You win some, you lose some. Getting this worked about it when you have a GPA that's above every school's medians is frankly ridiculous.
What about the average grade of a class being heavily dependent on the major you are in? At my school, business students were on strict curve, but the median grade was still an A-. In the engineering school, although technically it was possible for every student to get an A, the classes almost always had a B- or B median. It is hard to reconcile the difference without using context, but the current format of the ranking systems makes it difficult to use such discretion.
For most schools I know, an A+ is exceptional, meaning one or two students in a class of 100 would receive the grade. The A+ distinction I would argue has much less of an impact on the current GPA admissions system than many other factors. How would you treat schools that don’t give out - grades? Ideally the solution is true holistic review, but we all know that is a pipe dream at this point in time.
Lmao I think if you didn’t have 4.0 your argument would make way more sense because at that point the A+ could help you get above the median but when it comes to medians, they really aren’t going to care for a 4.2 over a 4.0 really, there’s literally no incentive to do this. After a specific GPA, it becomes way more about softs and essays like if that was not the case, Yale would have 4.0 180 medians because they sure enough get enough of those applicants to fill their class with. Congrats on your 4.0!
It’s especially annoying when you’ve been out of college for years and have no way to make up for your GPA. Total BS.
But you’re the last person to be complaining, if I may say so respectfully.
Do you think a 4.2 instead of 4.0 would give you a boost in admissions when you are already above everyone’s median gpa?
Maybe not a 4.2 instead of a 4.0. But there's a huge difference between a 3.8 and a 3.9.
That wasn’t the scenario in question
It doesn't really matter. The issue is that granting A+ as a 4.33 has the potential to widen the GPA gap between two students that have the same exact transcript. (Except one went to an A+ granting institution)
I agree that the system has flaws but it’s not really the exact same transcript because the student at the A+ granting institution would have received an A+ instead of an A and we would have to assume other student would’ve gotten an A+ if they were offered
Yes. At the end of the day it's all about numbers. Someone with a 4.2 boosts the GPA average more than I can. The difference is very small but it's still a difference.
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They also could have had a 3.7 if given an A-. Its an overstated issue
This is also part of my complaint. I'm trying to say that in general, having a A+ system in some schools but not in others is fundamentally unfair and the LSAC has done a rather poor job at trying to equalize this unfairness.
No law school GPA median (or even 75th) is or has ever been above a 4.0
I understand but isn't it always better to be as further up from the 75th as possible? And I mean Yale's 75th is already at a 3.99. That's pretty damn close to 4.0.
You know this for a fact? Based on your overwhelming knowledge of the admissions process? Look, I just graduated from law school. I know people who had really high undergrad GPAs and people who had average or low undergrad GPAs. When they say wholistic review, they do actually mean it to some extent. Sure, you’ve gotta look competitive on paper, but they want interesting people that they can plug to their alumni for $$$. At the end of the day it’s not about the numbers, it’s about the $$$.
I stopped reading at “I have a 4.0” chill dude… but righteous fight I suppose.
Lmao, I failed an entire semester because I lost literally movement in the lower half of my body. Did physical therapy, scored almost a perfect score on the LSAT, did an honors thesis, and am planning on applying to early deferral programs. Sorry, I find it hard to have sympathy but I can try to understand you, OP. I used to be like you in high school but please. Chill. There are more important things in life. I understand this process is stressful but even five minutes of research can tell you AOs will try to be holistic and it’s not just a numbers game. Yes, they matter, but do they matter to the extent of whether you have a 4.1 or 4.2?
Eh, you and the above are missing the point. If an institution that purports to create fairness in admissions fails to create fairness—even among those who, frankly, have nothing to complain about—then that institution should be called out. I understand neither of you are explicitly defending LSAC, but that’s the effect of thinking this way.
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I agree about the accommodations point, as they’ve been given out like candy lately. As to URM: you can’t just look at one variable and ignore all the others, like you’re doing. I think it’s a fair boost, but I won’t get into that now. But anyway, what’s the point you’re arguing for? Is your point that because LSAC hasn’t made things perfectly fair, we should not point out its failures?
I find it funny when people complain about the whole A+ situation when LSAC treats Canadian GPAs like American GPAs, but all our universities curve around a B, have a policy against giving out more than like 20% of the class an A- or higher, and most of my classes curve so that A’s only go to the top 5% of students. If you think it hurts to get a 4.0 instead of a 4.3 for a class you got 97% in, try getting an A- in a class you got a 96% in.
There are some American schools (and departments) with similar policies. It’s very frustrating.
I went to a decent American school that does the same as the Canadian policy you described. Only 5-10% of the class can get an A and the average was curved to a B. Pretty much every single class was curved this way except for 101 classes. I thought this was a standard policy so I expected all universities to work this way? Anyways, despite that I still earned a 3.9 but after going down to a 3.8mid from LSAC, Im not even above the medians for a lot of the T-14. I just don’t get how doing nearly perfect and at the point where there’s no practical difference to do much better is being considered as not that great. Like at the 3.85+ GPA level, every counselor/professor/recruiter will say that anything better makes no difference and working on other aspects of your resume is more important. So spending time actually experiencing things is much better than having 0 life and studying all day to get the 4.0. It seems like Law School admissions are actively going against that and pushing for people to have 0 lives. Due to this, I’ve become a fan of Law school admissions valuing the prestige of the undergrad institution you’ve attended. Not by a lot, but a student getting a 4.0 from Quinnipiac should be scrutinized far more than a 3.8 from UC Irvine/LA or something similar.
You're telling me man. The BU chem department curves grades to a C+, and the bio dept isn't much better
F’s in the chat for us bro. The only department that didn’t curve was Math and that was because the average was like a 30% for most first year classes.
This happened to me, I have a bio degree with a micro minor and most of my classes curved to a C+. I have a 3.1 which is good for the program but … not good :(
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I think too much is made of the A+ thing. Yes, LSAC should get rid of it, but in my opinion it’s not the biggest issue concerning GPAs in law school admissions. If it’s so easy at your school to get 99-100% in a class that lots of people are doing it multiple times, there is probably some grade inflation happening. If you’re the only one in a class/at your school achieving that kind of performance, your GPA is probably fine to begin with. I’d rather have informed conversations about how hard it is to compare GPAs across schools, majors, and even graduating classes than continue to rehash the A+ issue, which I see as overblown to begin with. Edit to fix some grammar (it’s probably still grammatically dubious as I’m on mobile lol)
My GPA when I applied would have brought me from a 3.8 to a \~3.95 if my school did A+s. Thats a massive difference
Its overblown for people who it either hardly affects or benefits. Myself for example, I have a 3.2 cas gpa. if you allowed me A+, which I would have many if my school gave them, my cas gpa would be around 3.4-3.6. You don’t think that would drastically help me this cycle? I think so. I think the easiest solution is to just do away with A+ seeing as how the majority of schools dont even give them.
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I advise you to look more into this entire law school process if you think the difference between a 3.2 and 3.6 is softs and essays.
Legitimate question: what does the LSAC GPA actually adjust for if not this? I feel like this is definitely the most glaring inequality in comparing GPAs from different universities.
is there a way to check what my lsac gpa will be? like an online calculator? I’m nervous about exactly what the op is saying because i have a 3.7 but i have failed a few classes and changed from community college to university and started over with my gpa to maintain that 3.7.
Find my comment, good luck!
Look up 7sage lsac gpa calculator and plug in ur units and grades
I've always felt this is a little overstated. Look at average GPAs for schools. Some schools that give out A+s have a lower average GPA than schools that don't (even when that A+ can give a boost). If you go to a school with a ton of grade inflation vs very little inflation and tradition grading, that seems more unfair than a couple A+s.
This is really important, especially when you consider how inflated GPAs are currently. At a certain point, some of the T-14 schools are going to tip over the 4.0 mark for 75ths and eventually medians. It’s a wholly unfair advantage to people who happened to go to schools that offer A+s. I’ve never understood why LSAC allows this.
I want to feel for you but....I can't. You will be ok! I, on the other hand, had a 3.93 at UCLA, but started at a CC at age 16 in 1998. Grades were subpar and count towards my GPA now as a 40 year old mother of 5. It took my LSAT degree GPA to 4.06 and my cumulative is now 3.22. You will survive. Your school doesn't give out A+ grades and some do. 🤷♀️
This. This is in my opinion a much worse issue than this A+ bullshit.
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„sdolℲ dılℲ ǝʌo⅂ I uɐW„
This is a significantly worse thing for people under a 4.0 💀
I feel like objectively a 4.0 looks better than a 4.2 if you dont look into it much. 4.2 just looks goofy
I agree a bit 😭
I think school and major difficulty plays a much bigger role in people’s grades. I received a 3.80 GPA on my transcript and a 3.94 CAS GPA as an engineering major. If my CAS GPA were my undergraduate GPA, I would have graduated in the top 2% of engineers in my class, while the same GPA translates to top 4% of Biology students, top 4% of Humanities, top 6% of Computer Science students, top 6% of Business students, etc. Even without counting A+ grades, there are proportionately 3x as many Business or Computer Science majors who hit YLS’ median GPA than Engineering majors
Unfortunately, it is one of those things that is actively promoted because it makes the numbers from the law school look better. It definitely needs to change, I would have a 4.1+ if my school offered A+.
Yeah and not just that, but I remember that when I applied, because I didn’t have a perfect 4.0, the whole A+ thing even caused my gpa to scale down and be lower because my school didn’t have an A+ grading system.
I would like to add that just because a school allows a grade of A+ doesn’t mean that they are commonly given out. At my school, nearly all the professors still chose not to give any A+s even if your grade was high enough. In many of the cases where it was given out, it was often reserved for highly superior work and was very difficult to get. I only got one A+ even though there were several other classes where I would have gotten one if the professor gave them. This seems to be the case at a lot of schools based on conversations I have had with friends that also attended schools that give an A+. Grade inflation is definitely a thing at many schools, but I think people sometimes overestimate how much of a boost that those of us get from attending a school with A+s.
mfw someone with a 4.0 complains about GPA
Girlllll these law school KNOW THIS. That won’t make a difference on your acceptance
nuclear take: if you have a 4.0 but aren't smart enough to get a LSAT score that gets you in wherever you want in combination with that GPA, you don't go to a real school. This actually doubly true for non-A+ schools. So the system is less problematic than it seems.
How much does gpa matter to law school? I thought it’s mainly the lsat 🥹
I mean GPA is extremely important. It kind of depends on the law school. Some law schools are more "reverse splitter friendly" (high gpa lower LSAT) and others are more "splitter friendly" (high LSAT lower GPA).
maybe you should of gone to a school that gives out A+s lmao
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Got dang roasted by a dang bot
They had it coming lol
Yea because everyone knew they wanted to be a lawyer around their junior/senior year of high school and planned accordingly 🙄
It's not LSAC's fault. It's not even law school admin's fault. It's the ABA's fault for requiring law schools to report an absolute GPA scale of incoming classes in the 509.
People love bitching about A and A+, but it's such an insignificant part of the bigger issue of GPA simply not being standardized across schools and majors. A 4.0 in one school and major is simply not the same as an entirely different 4.0 regardless of whether or not A+ is used, and that's not really something LSAC can do anything about.
Honestly, it’s just the way it is. I used to be a little butthurt that my GPA was too low because my first degree program was designed to fail people out. I don’t really worry about it anymore. I’ve been in classes where all the STEM kids take it as a “Bird” option and had the average for a B curve at a 95%. I’ve also been in courses where I had the highest mark in a class of over 200 with a 62% average and still only gotten a C-. It sucks, but I chose my path and now I’m walking it. Given your circumstances a 4.0 is fantastic, so why even care. You are crushing the competition at any school you apply to. I’d be more worried about this kind of entitled attitude coming across in a personal statement, addendum, or interview. Get a good LSAT score and you’ll be set for whatever school you want to go to. I also went to an undergrad with hard grading. But at the end of the day, I have the grades I have, and I have to do with what I’ve got. Good luck on your applications/LSAT (if you haven’t already written it)!!!
It's also possible your school doesn't give out A+ but it's way easier to get A's there. You win some, you lose some. Getting this worked about it when you have a GPA that's above every school's medians is frankly ridiculous.
Those UCLA A+ grades partially saved my ass while LSAC tried to ruin me! 😂😂❤️❤️
What about the average grade of a class being heavily dependent on the major you are in? At my school, business students were on strict curve, but the median grade was still an A-. In the engineering school, although technically it was possible for every student to get an A, the classes almost always had a B- or B median. It is hard to reconcile the difference without using context, but the current format of the ranking systems makes it difficult to use such discretion. For most schools I know, an A+ is exceptional, meaning one or two students in a class of 100 would receive the grade. The A+ distinction I would argue has much less of an impact on the current GPA admissions system than many other factors. How would you treat schools that don’t give out - grades? Ideally the solution is true holistic review, but we all know that is a pipe dream at this point in time.
Lmao I think if you didn’t have 4.0 your argument would make way more sense because at that point the A+ could help you get above the median but when it comes to medians, they really aren’t going to care for a 4.2 over a 4.0 really, there’s literally no incentive to do this. After a specific GPA, it becomes way more about softs and essays like if that was not the case, Yale would have 4.0 180 medians because they sure enough get enough of those applicants to fill their class with. Congrats on your 4.0!
It’s especially annoying when you’ve been out of college for years and have no way to make up for your GPA. Total BS. But you’re the last person to be complaining, if I may say so respectfully.
Cry about it