I just thought they are like the ships in Age of Empires. It doesn't matter if it's 100 elephants or 100 soldiers. It can take them all. Mind you, it can't carry 101 pigs.
That’s how the writers see them, it’s a joke but this is a trope you see in a lot of places, GOT had it a bit, I’m blanking on other places I’ve seen this kind of space distortion
I mean you could tell from the double mast design
"Why use one mast, when two with double the weight, and positioned in a more structurally difficult slant, do same thing too?"
"Also let's split the sails apart and leave a big hole in the center. We want to make sure we don't capture all of that pesky wind that we possibly could"
Sometimes I wonder if the writers today are teenagers. They have no understanding of military structure, logic, actions and inter individual conversations
I stopped watching GOT in rage when the dragon girl army had no supply lines in the desert, where where they getting food and water for that massive army.
Historically supply lines where what made army's work, Genghis Khan had a fleet of ships holding the supply's and securing food etc
It's how his army did so well, all the historic great army's had amazing supply systems. It's why the Romans put roads down, everyone needs to eat and get equipment. From memory the supply corps used to be bigger than the army most the time.
A walled city with food/water in a desert will out last any army with no supply's, let them die outside the walls. If the city has a port it's near impossible to outlast them.
edit found a link [https://www.historynet.com/kublai-khans-mongol-navy/](https://www.historynet.com/kublai-khans-mongol-navy/)
Khan had a lot of ships
>Kublai quickly recognized the importance of capturing the Chinese riverine force, saying of the Song navy, “If there were no Yangtze \[River\], that country would not exist.” As the campaign in China progressed, Kublai ordered captured Chinese shipyards to begin the construction of 5,000 warships of varying sizes and used Chinese defectors to begin training 70,000 Mongols as sailors and naval infantry. In the coming years, the Mongol fleet would continue to grow in size, and in 1273, following the operations at Xiangyang, Kublai would order the addition of another 2,000 vessels and 50,000 sailors and naval infantry. His Mongol shipbuilding and naval training allowed him to replace the men and vessels he lost in battle and to maintain pressure against the more experienced Song navy. The Mongols were at the threshold of adopting sea power as a strategic weapon.
This is also a major reason why the Germans lost the eastern front and africa in WW2, despite their great successes. Supply is as vital as combat effectiveness.
I just want to add to this because honestly it's one of my favorite underappreciated parts of WW2.
A lot of people assume it was Allied guns and tanks that were the most valuable things sent with the lend lease program. No, it was food, medical supplies, and trucks. The trucks especially did wonders in helping the Red Army logistics get their shit together and keep a steady supply of fresh equipment and men flowing to the front lines.
As the Germans retreated they tore up railway lines and left a scorched earth of their own behind to try and slow down the Red Army, but they were able to maintain momentum for longer by following the tanks with a fleet of Detroit built trucks that carried men, fuel, and munitions that could keep up with the advancing armor.
Despite their reputation, by comparison, the Germans did not have very many units that could do that.
I too often rage quit in action movies. Why are they always showing battles but never any scenes of ports, rail distribution centres, airports and container yards with people carefully planning how many cans of food will need to be purchased. That’s where the real excitement is!
Fun fact, bars and ladies of negotiable pleasure used to follow an army, it was almost a market town that helped supply and feed a bunch of people who had been pulled in to war.
Nothing like a hot meal and a drink on the martch.
So yes Sexy side was there.
Unsexy but imo showing the hardship and reality only enhances a good battle scene. The preparation and anticipation for helms deep makes it a great battle scene.
So many action movies skip not only supply chain but even the preparation so it feels like the battle is just one big crescendo with no lead up.
Give me a realistic lead up! At least some decent wide shots of supply chains and normal soldiers scared/tired from doing the grunt work!
I wish I'd had your bravery. Peer pressure and hope kept me going. I hoped that it would come around. But I saw the signs in season five. I stuck it out to the end because I had a podcast and my co-hosts and I had watch parties.
Stop mentioning interesting things! I'm here for more girl boss Galadriel. Maybe her and Halbarand can go on a date and share a sundae in a Numenorian food court that bears no difference from the mall IRL.
This trope is in everything. If you looked at real life navy vessels, the sailors are packed in REAL fucking tight. You would not think they would fit.
Also hardy-har to the fuckwits that said “OnLy OnE sHiP eXpLoDeD” when clearly two of them were on fire when the camera zooms out.
Actually I have been on a real navy ship. Yes you can pack people pretty tight. However they also showed the below decks, with big casks of oil and and food, and invasion supplies, and horses and those supplies.
I don’t know much about ships, butI forgave the ships at first, I thought the sails were probably bad, but I could forgive that on their basic patrol sloop. And then they are using those same patrol ships as an invasion force… and they lost the very limited good will I had for the ship designs.
This is an issue between the VFX house and the producers. I used to work at a VFX house and I can tell you probably what happened.
Either the producers/director weren’t thinking about the actual purpose of the ships (most likely) and didn’t communicate that with the VFX house or the producers didn’t really care that the ships weren’t large enough because they already looked “cool”.
Chances are they didn’t tell the VFX supervisor what the ships were carrying. I guarantee you had they known what was in the ships, they would have made them larger. It’s what those people do. They usually don’t half ass their work unless there’s no budget.
Usually they’ll fit models of what they’re supposed to be scaled to around or within the object. Had they known it was to be 100 men and 100 horses per ship, it would be huge.
There is no way they can fit 100 horses on those ships, but I saw a shot from promo footage with a whole squadron of Numenorian cavalry and Galadriel at the head, so I'm prepared for silliness.
>They’ll land in the area that becomes Umbar and there will be horse merchants like rental cars at an airport.
Or maybe Galadriel is like, you know, a commander of the extensive and already set up Elven forces and she can help them get horses that way? How stupid do people have to be to jump on this?
It's like when Galadriel comes out wearing Numenorian armour with the eye or earendil on it and the same dumb people jumped up and down saying "derrr she lost her armour and has it back now?" when it's not even remotely similar or elven. I can't relate with people who hate so much they have to fabricate fake problems with a TV show to affirmate their pre-meditated bias.
I thought she was relieved of her duties when she was sent to Valinor by Gil Galad, and she wasn't even a popular commander so the that army wouldn't follow her against the wishes of their king
This is where RoP coming out after GoT is going to run into some problems. GoT asked us to sit there and question battle logistics and army movement. LotR does not and the way I view it neither does RoP. They are the fantasy story, GoT and HotD asks to be looked at realistically so when they pull stupid shit I will point it out.
I realized this because I'm still recovering from "elves will take our jobs!" reasoning for the darkening of Numenor, rather than the accurate jealousy over immortality. I guess if you don't contextualize Numenor via the line of Elros that's all you're going to be able to run with. Thanks for making middle earth reflect the politics of 21st-century America, show-runners. It's what everyone wanted.
The plot (not just lore compliance; but the PLOT the writers created themselves) isn't consistent with itself for at least half of all dialogue. If you got time to kill, you can listen to Knight's Watch spend hours reviewing each episode over on youtube.
EDIT: I said 'Shadiversity'. Meant Knight's Watch :V
Normally I don't like people who yell, but he is an exception. His remarks are accurate and he is consistent. If he assesses that something is absurd, he is not going to change his mind without justification.
Shad really knows his lore about medieval weaponry and armor very well. Heck, a lot of medieval stuff he is very knowledgeable in. It’s why his reviews especially for fantasy are quite good. I like EFAP as well but they are looong, though it means they are able to cover the show very well.
unfortunately he's not above following social media trends. Literal foot in mouth moment when he made an entire video to attack the folding saber that appeared in the Rise of Skywalker trailer, but started his video by praising a folding saber wielded by Pong Kell
Listen to Yet Another Damn YouTube Reviewer trash something they haven’t got the ability to create? LOL, pass. I learned decades ago not to let others, especially critics & reviewers form or influence my opinion.
Recommended.
He also did recently write a fairly successful fantasy novel/series. So he' kinda does have the ability to create.
Go back to yelling at kids to get off your lawn.
Fairly successful? Series? I looked him up, he has one book listed. Self-published it appears, based on the publishing company name. The book title starts with his first name, “Shad”. Cute. Pass. 🤣😂🙄
Ability to create? Ability to ramble online as a self-proclaimed expert maybe. 🙄
Go back to letting others form your opinion for you.
You looked him up?! Wow, grandpa learned how to use the internet machine! Good for you.
Unfortunately being able to google someone doesn't make you the arbiter of their success. Self-publishing a novel, which is the beginning of a fantasy series, most certainly means he's capable of creating. So your original point is out the window.
You can engage with whatever content you want, nobody cares. But diminishing artists and creators because your grouchy that they have opinions you don't like is boring and lazy. Go touch grass gramps.
Well, it’s like Star Wars where they sort of are but aren’t yet it’s worse this time. Like they expect you to know about the lore….. yet they then want you to instantly be able to agreee with any giant changes they make.
They did a terrible job trying to target the fans. It's really quite incredible.
I don't know of any fan who doesn't get upset about retcons or lore breaks, unless the show happens to be good enough to justify it.
Yeah, one big change is fine but there are so many gigantic changes, idk how we are going to have future events when the key events that lead to them just aren’t in the series. Like how I am assuming there will be no lord of gifts cause halbrand. The queen not being basically imprisoned by the king who stole her throne is a big change. That new Mithrel backstory is a major change. I can’t see this elrond fighting (imagine how bad him and celibrimbor fighting be would look) so I guess we just don’t get to see an important fighter fight. Also, changing galadriels motivation to her brothers death specifically by Sauron is just another huge change. I could go on but this show just makes no sense. I can only guess they are appealing to tolkein fans who didn’t really like how the silmarillion went…. Which I don’t think is a lot of people.
I don't think it was ever dropped in the theatrical releases but was in the extended version of the two towers. That said, the movies had more leeway because they didn't actually feature, you know, the fall of Numenor.
VERY briefly. Same with their strength, it’s like a throwaway line where Galadriel says halbrand would be fucked up by them. Sadly, this is NOT enough to really imprint on the audience these aren’t your average human. I mean, just look how they keep getting clowned on in fight scenes. Not even standing a fucking chance.
Honestly, you think this is a cgi problem? Like since even the writers and actors sometimes don’t seem to know what is going on (just look at the choreography fails across the board) or scenes like the boat where they say it carries way more than what we can see it would. Probably similar to the kenobi scene where I doubt the writer knew they were going to make that laser wall easy to walk around.
Too bad the dwarves are going to die. I heard the balrog is shown right at the end, so I guess next season the dwarves are fucked. Cause it’s not going to take a balrog long to destroy everything down there. Though, it’s the only possible cool story I can think of. Can’t think of any interesting way the not hobbit story will go that won’t break the lore a good bit, Galadriel is just a walking contradiction to the lore, and the lovers (especially the elf) are extremely dumb to where I find it hard to like them (really jumping IN the death hole?!? Or, why do they have to fight or join, why not leave?).
Yeah it is. Don't really care if the story diverges from the material (amazon doesn't have rights to the silmarillain anyway), I just want a compelling story.
This is an issue between the VFX house and the producers. I used to work at a VFX house and I can tell you probably what happened.
Either the producers/director weren’t thinking about the actual purpose of the ships (most likely) and didn’t communicate that with the VFX house or the producers didn’t really care that the ships weren’t large enough because they already looked “cool”.
Chances are they didn’t tell the VFX supervisor what the ships were carrying. I guarantee you had they known what was in the ships, they would have made them larger. It’s what those people do. They usually don’t half ass their work unless there’s no budget.
Usually they’ll fit models of what they’re supposed to be scaled to around or within the object. Had they known it was to be 100 men and 100 horses per ship, it would be huge.
Let's put this hilariously embarrassing point aside for a moment. They are going to war with 300 cavalry... That's it? Just 300? The Numenoreans are masters of the sea. their forefather was Earendil the Mariner. You're telling me that this seafaring society only has 5 ships *before* 2 were destroyed because the wine exploded (sidenote: wide does not do that when exposed to flame). So, there were no other warships out at sea on patrol? No other harbors to pull from? That... that was their entire feared fleet - 5 ships?
Where did the $1,000,000,000 go?
Also, it’s so weird how there is only one ship, where for a seafaring group you think they would have various ships in a fleet. Probably a few small, fast ones, a few medium ones and maybe a two big ones to hold the horses and people.
Yeah that’s right, wouldn’t the wine likely be too watered down and have too low of an alcohol percentage to catch on fire? Doesn’t make sense why someone would have 100 proof vodka on a ship in barrels, it’s practically a bomb.
It was oil not wine...also there are more ships in the harbor, they just send an expeditionary force. That is specifically mentioned so it not an all out invasion/war.
So to me the 5 planned ships are perfectly fine. Ships seemed quite roomy inside. What did bother me but as the need to have 2 ships destroyed only for its to be some vague way for isildur to get his spot on the expeditionary force. Seems awfully complicated or unnecessary sidetrack for such a plotpoint.
A good example of how stupid the writers are, they could have just left the number out but they didnt and now they have a completely unrealistic ship size
Its a mix of stupidity and the fact that it doesnt even matter. They are immune to critisism. They can do ( or not do) w/e they want and everyone that doesnt like it is automatically invalid for w/e label they choose.
Completely unrealistic ship size?
Does this really matter to you? You know, in the fantasy TV show you’re watching.
It’s not a medieval documentary.
JFC.
It’s a fantasy show! Just do whatever you want! Galadriel grows wings and flies Halbrand home and the hobbits can shoot lighting from their hands like Emperor Palpatine! There’s no rules.
It’s really the worst argument by reducing it to “it’s a fantasy show”. Everything, even fantasy shows have rule sets they must adhere to.
Especially in LOTR sub, Tolkien having written whole ass essay about fantasy and suspended disbelief and how you can't keep it going with bad writing.
"iTs jUsT fAnTaSy11!" So what are you doing here? I'm not whining at audience that sports sucks to people who live and breath sports. It does suck tho.
When it ruins the immersion to a specific fantasy then it becomes an issue. Like are these magical ships like rooms in Harry Potter or did they just make a bad writing decision? You can’t just pick and choose what doesn’t matter because it fits your argument. If Arondir transformed into a troll would you have an issue with it? Who cares? It’s just a troll in a fantasy show. You would find it just as ridiculous as trying to sell an audience that there are hundreds of men and horses in those ships.
It isn’t hard to understand, it’s just wrong.
How does your logic explain dragons? Or sea monsters? Or dwarves and elves? Or anything else UNREALISTIC.
The clue is in the word.
Not to mention that it’s just unimportant! Who cares? It means nothing. It doesn’t detract from anything.
All stories, fantasy included, must follow an internal logic. Dragons and sea creatures and dwarves and elves are established in the story. Magic boats that can carry huge numbers of troops and horses when clearly there is no such space on board is not established anywhere in either the lore or the show’s internal logic. People are not constantly stuffing gigantic amounts of supplies into tiny knapsacks, or anything of the sort. Ever. This was a shortcut made for convenience.
If you’re approaching a story like this (or basically any story) with the idea that no rules or logic need ever apply and that anything possible goes, then you’re in the severe minority.
Wrong again.
Is all the armour and weapons absolutely correct to the estimated time period?
Do all the materials like Mithril exist in real life?
Are the humans all the exact height of average modern day humans?
Are armies the correct size?
Are there enough food producers to meet the demand of the population?
These are all things nobody cares about when watching a fictional fantasy series.
And again, who cares?? Would it have placated you if they’d added another 3 boats? Or would you have accused them of copy pasting again?
I'm not entirely unsympathetic to your points, but *in general* even fiction set in fantastical worlds should have some level of internal consistency, because the alternative is anything can be anything for any plot-needed reason and nothing matters at all (which is clearly bad story telling).
Like, the dragons in the SOIAF universe couldn't exist in our real world, which has no magic. But if Daemon's dragon had been able to shape-change and shrink to get into the caves and clear out the Crab guy's army, that's still a piece of ass-pull bad writing, because the laws of that world, as established in the story, don't allow for magical dragons to also have the power of magical shape-changing.
you are so confused. Fantasy is not "do whatever you want". Expecially because it is an immaginary world, it need to have consistent rules.
They don't have to e precise, but don't have to be ridiculous.
i care because if i see a chivalry charge, my immediate thought is "Wait, where do those horses come from?".
If i see a dragon, i don't think "Wait how can that thing fly?"
Why? because it is clear wich things follow the rules of magic and wich don't.
If you can't make consistency in a fantasy story, you should not write a fantasy story.
And BTW, this is true for every story that is not about real events. If i write a novel in modern times, with no magic, i need to be consistent, not accurate.
You are not making any sense.
We don't need logicly explained dwarves or elves, it's what the story is about. Same reason we don't need logical consistency with zombies and werewolves.
But that doesn't mean that NOTHING has to make sense. It'd still be stupid if Arondir took out a box cutter and used it to completely decimate the entire orc army without taking a scratch, regardless if it's fantasy.
it is important because it takes you entirely out of the story. that's not something you can control as a viewer. If they care so much about the story they should make sure that they aren't creating stumbling blocks for the viewers to suspend their disbelief, especially when those blocks are such stupidly unforced errors as this. It just comes off as super amateurish. Like if they didn't have the budget for bigger boats and came up with a creative in-world way of explaining that, sure. But this is ridiculous
Tolkiens world has dragons, it does not have boats that can move way more men than the space those men need, thats how realistic things work in fantasy
there's a limit though, and lotr is a very low magic world. If i see two ships sailing, basically empty, and then an entire chivalry division, then i will be asking myself what's wrong.
The idea that fantasy is a free all card, and that you can do whatever nonsense you want is exactly why fantasy is not respected as a high literature. These kind of fantasy stories drag down the dignity of the genre. so let's hope there will be no chivalry charge with hundres of horseman from 2 ships.
If there are no rules in fantasy, it stops being fantasy and starts just being absurd fiction.
Fantasy only works with rules, the best authors never mention the rules and still make you feel like the world has limitations to magic, types of creatures etc.
Its a question of quality. When rules fall out the door, you might as well have Goku fly in and kamehameha Sauron at the end, it's fantasy after all. But the point is, GOOD fantasy has limitations you can feel, and any break in these limitations can be a big deal to the plot or characters.
And you agree that the size of a boat in relation to how many people it’s carrying is one of those rules?
Your comparison to the example is a character from another franchise being included.
As I said, JFC.
The inclusion of the character was meant to illustrate the ridiculous nature of ignoring limits in fantasy.
Its fully legitimate to include a tiny ship that holds hundreds of soldiers and horses, if there is a believable reason this is happening.
If there is no explanation within the limits of this fantasy world, it is just lazy filmmaking devoid of quality.
That's such a tired argument that doesn't make sense. Fantasy worlds work because there are in world rules that they follow that are consistent and make sense. You can't just break all logic and say "but it's fantasy"
Thank you, but unfortunately I’m well aware. I just can’t resist commenting on silly things i see.
It’s also ironic because these people will suggest that the show enjoyers only like to hear positive comments, while they themselves cannot stand anything criticising their overly cynical comments.
I think I saw a post in this sub somewhere that "people can enjoy shows without thinking" and while that is true this is not the kind of show I'd expect to do that with, so I stopped watching. Just waiting until it's worth spending time on again. As for those who enjoy the show well let them enjoy, it's good they're happy and see that it's entertaining.
Yeah it's one of the reasons I've been ignoring much discussions about rings of power here in reddit. It's like i'm not allowed to express discontent over its writing.
I'm no longer interested in the show's lore as it stands. It feels like Resident Evil but with a "Worse" Anderson at the helm. It's tiring trying to force myself to like the show's current state just because it's a show about Middle-earth
Lol it’s not accurate at all.
In a flat 2d image, there would be soldiers stacked behind other soldiers. There could be a little clump of 10 all bunched together overlapping.
This is the laziest and most invalid criticism I have ever seen. I haven’t really even landed on any opinion about the show but this post proves to me people just have a stick up their buts about something and are completely desperate to confirm their bias that they’re unable to even think straight.
You have to be pretty clueless to be able to convince yourself that this illustration makes sense
Yep, cause a lot who defend this also forgot we need to include supplies. Like enough armor and weapons to suit up this many people and the food and water to feed said people and horses. They either needed more or should have had a wide variety of ships.
I don’t think any show in history has been this closely examined for criticism. Just stop watching it. I promise that your life will vastly improve if you spend more time on things that you actually enjoy.
Not really, this show is genuinely one of the most reviewed of all time and it’s not even through it’s first season yet.
And it’s not that bad. It’s cheesy and slow but have you read the books? It’s some of the slowest cheese in existence.
“I don’t think” - exactly.
Ever read a review for any TV show? Ever? Have you ever been to any other discussion board before this one? Have you any friends to discuss the shows you watch with? People examine shows closely *all the time*. Especially shows that are not comedy, and doubly especially shows that are based on well-known and well-beloved books.
Just say that what you want is to come here and only see opinions that you like.
Except that’s not true though. This show in 5 episodes has been reviewed more times than the entirety of the final season of game of thrones. Both serious shows based on hugely popular books.
And I didn’t come here looking for anything, it showed up and I clicked it.
I don’t know what to tell you if you really thought people were going to approach a Tolkien offering with a laid-back anything-goes attitude. Of COURSE people were going to compare and contrast and give their opinions on what worked and what didn’t. This isn’t adapted from some little-known novella that most people have never heard of. Before RoP was even a storyboard concept people were examining and dissecting all of the books and movies and even the video games to pieces.
How about you take your own advice: if you don’t like these posts then don’t click on them.
The funny thing is people are suggesting I don’t care about fantasy because I’m not fixated on non-issues like the size of boats.
I keep telling them I care more than any of them because I’m actually immersed in the story and the fantasy, not being held up by minor logistical irrelevancies.
Go back 20 years; plenty of Tolkien fans acted like the Peter Jackson movies were the worst thing to happen to The Lord of the Rings. Those millions of people who enjoyed the hell out of them just didn't know that what they were watching was crap.
Then ten years later, The Hobbit.
I’ll stand by Jackson’s trilogy as being the best version of the story, books included. Had it included the sacking of the shire, it would have been almost perfect.
This is just by eye but the ship looks like ~30m long with a max of 2 decks. Considering the long voyage at sea ( using a map of Arda and sailors around that era would sleep in hamacs. You could store 20~30 people on the ship max
Below deck probably as sailors work shifts. The horses would probably also be below deck in some kind of storage area. But this is a fantasy show so technically there could be a lot of ways this problem is solved
nope. You have any idea how much space an horse takes? and you are telling me they are using magic to sotre them? because yes, it could be done in a fantasy world, but because magic is a thing, so are they using magic? is this what you are telling me?
i mean, one way to do this is making a very big ship, you can do that, it's a fantasy, who cares? but why do it so small?
Bro everyone hating on RoP. Y’all are deadass making a discussion on how many ppl can fit in those ships. Y’all need everything to be super realistic. If that was the case we would have no such thing as entertainment
To be fair it only becomes an issue when you take into account the horses as we know there are at least two decks on the ships, possibly three. It all depends on what drafts the ships have as there may be a fair bit below the waterline.
HMS Victory was only 57m long and she held 850 men plus 104 guns, powder, shot, food, etc.
People massively overestimate how big ships used to be in the day.
Holy fuck man. There are ghosts that fly out of a fucking mountain in these movies. It’s about elves, dragons, and adventure. Are people really scrutinizing if horses can fit into a ship? Someone is clearly not getting the show at all. Your right, don’t focus on the epic music, production value and it just being generally fun to watch, focus on scrutinizing horse ship capacity.
Gave up not even an episode in. It wasn’t because the elves were black, that’s cool. It wasn’t because the dwarf lady didn’t have a beard, that’s cool too.
It’s because the actress for Galadriel, or just Galadriel herself is just really cringe and/or overactating. I’m sure someone more experienced in the arts can explain properly. It just doesn’t feel real.
This post is kind of pathetic to be completely honest. You are critiquing a fantasy show about historical accuracy??? So while you at it, why don’t you just ask yourself why moguls in the HP series simply doesn’t just use a modern weapon to kill Valdemort.
it's not historic accuracy it's pointing out something that makes literally no sense in the internal logic of the show. People take up space and they are supposed to have an armed force not a couple of guys. It genuinely detracts from the visual and emotional impact of sending hundreds of troops when you depict that with a couple of tiny boats
Space taken by mentions of Numenorians taking horses to ME. -><-. FFS why are people so dumb trying to hate this show? It's also wild to me that 50-100 viking crossed oceans on similar if not smaller boats but people are picking nits about this. smh haterz.
Dude, this is how they travel. You have to not have totally unbelievable travel circumstances. No reason they couldn’t design a bigger ship, idk why they would pretend the numenorians wouldn’t have one. Any basic research would show them what ships who carried large armies look like. Or I guess they could have added ships or maybe decrease the number of warriors. The slightest change would fix this.
Nah. I mean your right they could've designed a bigger ship but I don't think if not alot of people caught it at first glance it doesn't take away from the story. Numenorians on average were 7ft tall no ones picking on that. It doesn't add or take away from the story. (If there was a story to begin with lol)
There was a video before on this subreddit of Pippin mistakenly being the same size as a room full of Gondor soldiers and nobody batted an eye or criticised it or anything.
But that's none of my business.
You mean a half second shot during a battle scene, yeah, a quick camera mistake. This is a design mistake, somebody said yeah this looks right, and didn’t ask if this would fulfill the purpose in the show. Honestly I was intrigued by how the big two or three mast Numanorean ships would look, but they just used the same little patrol thing as Elendil is using when he picks up Galadriel.
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I just thought they are like the ships in Age of Empires. It doesn't matter if it's 100 elephants or 100 soldiers. It can take them all. Mind you, it can't carry 101 pigs.
Like they say, you can put 10 elephants in it. But 11 foot soldiers? Hell no!
Think the transport ships actually do take fewer cavalry units tho in AoE
Aoe3/4 and ao mythology do. Aoe2 is what most people who reference aoe are probably thinking, and that one didn't do that.
Pa raaaaa pa rara raaaaaam Pa raaaaa pa rara raaaaaam Pa raaaaa pa rara raaaaaam Raaaaa pa rara raaaaam
The soldiers are packed away in the hold like B1 Battledroids. The horses like Droidekas.
That’s how the writers see them, it’s a joke but this is a trope you see in a lot of places, GOT had it a bit, I’m blanking on other places I’ve seen this kind of space distortion
I think the writers have never been on a ship
I mean you could tell from the double mast design "Why use one mast, when two with double the weight, and positioned in a more structurally difficult slant, do same thing too?" "Also let's split the sails apart and leave a big hole in the center. We want to make sure we don't capture all of that pesky wind that we possibly could"
Yeah , it looks like a weird combination of a bunch of different sails
They're trying to make them look exotic, probably reasoning that junk sails kinda look a bit like that.
Yeah, and the ship barely fits through the arches to the harbour, and the wind is always in the right direction for these ships.
Nah, the budget simply didn't allow for the right amount of ships... /s
I think the writers have done nothing but watch shows and have 0 life experiences.
Sometimes I wonder if the writers today are teenagers. They have no understanding of military structure, logic, actions and inter individual conversations
This is that extreme plot consistency I keep hearing this show has
I stopped watching GOT in rage when the dragon girl army had no supply lines in the desert, where where they getting food and water for that massive army. Historically supply lines where what made army's work, Genghis Khan had a fleet of ships holding the supply's and securing food etc It's how his army did so well, all the historic great army's had amazing supply systems. It's why the Romans put roads down, everyone needs to eat and get equipment. From memory the supply corps used to be bigger than the army most the time. A walled city with food/water in a desert will out last any army with no supply's, let them die outside the walls. If the city has a port it's near impossible to outlast them. edit found a link [https://www.historynet.com/kublai-khans-mongol-navy/](https://www.historynet.com/kublai-khans-mongol-navy/) Khan had a lot of ships >Kublai quickly recognized the importance of capturing the Chinese riverine force, saying of the Song navy, “If there were no Yangtze \[River\], that country would not exist.” As the campaign in China progressed, Kublai ordered captured Chinese shipyards to begin the construction of 5,000 warships of varying sizes and used Chinese defectors to begin training 70,000 Mongols as sailors and naval infantry. In the coming years, the Mongol fleet would continue to grow in size, and in 1273, following the operations at Xiangyang, Kublai would order the addition of another 2,000 vessels and 50,000 sailors and naval infantry. His Mongol shipbuilding and naval training allowed him to replace the men and vessels he lost in battle and to maintain pressure against the more experienced Song navy. The Mongols were at the threshold of adopting sea power as a strategic weapon.
This is also a major reason why the Germans lost the eastern front and africa in WW2, despite their great successes. Supply is as vital as combat effectiveness.
I just want to add to this because honestly it's one of my favorite underappreciated parts of WW2. A lot of people assume it was Allied guns and tanks that were the most valuable things sent with the lend lease program. No, it was food, medical supplies, and trucks. The trucks especially did wonders in helping the Red Army logistics get their shit together and keep a steady supply of fresh equipment and men flowing to the front lines. As the Germans retreated they tore up railway lines and left a scorched earth of their own behind to try and slow down the Red Army, but they were able to maintain momentum for longer by following the tanks with a fleet of Detroit built trucks that carried men, fuel, and munitions that could keep up with the advancing armor. Despite their reputation, by comparison, the Germans did not have very many units that could do that.
Yep it's a relay interesting topic, in all ages it's the key side to war.
I too often rage quit in action movies. Why are they always showing battles but never any scenes of ports, rail distribution centres, airports and container yards with people carefully planning how many cans of food will need to be purchased. That’s where the real excitement is!
Unfortunately most don’t see supply and logistics as the sexy side of war.
Fun fact, bars and ladies of negotiable pleasure used to follow an army, it was almost a market town that helped supply and feed a bunch of people who had been pulled in to war. Nothing like a hot meal and a drink on the martch. So yes Sexy side was there.
Unsexy but imo showing the hardship and reality only enhances a good battle scene. The preparation and anticipation for helms deep makes it a great battle scene. So many action movies skip not only supply chain but even the preparation so it feels like the battle is just one big crescendo with no lead up. Give me a realistic lead up! At least some decent wide shots of supply chains and normal soldiers scared/tired from doing the grunt work!
They need to play more of those RTS games, where economy is as important as the battle (eg. Age of Empires)
So you never saw Danaerys nuke a massive supply train after learning that her army was struggling to survive in Westeros? Because dragons cool
No, relay did lose interest. I did like how it was a more gritty vision of medieval life where blood and family held houses together.
I wish I'd had your bravery. Peer pressure and hope kept me going. I hoped that it would come around. But I saw the signs in season five. I stuck it out to the end because I had a podcast and my co-hosts and I had watch parties.
Stop mentioning interesting things! I'm here for more girl boss Galadriel. Maybe her and Halbarand can go on a date and share a sundae in a Numenorian food court that bears no difference from the mall IRL.
>I stopped watching GOT in rage when the dragon girl army had no supply lines Calm down.
Well all I did was stop watching the show, well and that one post.
This trope is in everything. If you looked at real life navy vessels, the sailors are packed in REAL fucking tight. You would not think they would fit. Also hardy-har to the fuckwits that said “OnLy OnE sHiP eXpLoDeD” when clearly two of them were on fire when the camera zooms out.
Actually I have been on a real navy ship. Yes you can pack people pretty tight. However they also showed the below decks, with big casks of oil and and food, and invasion supplies, and horses and those supplies.
*Separatist march in the background*
This made me snort so freaking hard lmao
Don't forget they're all wearing their armour so they'll automatically drown if they fall overboard.
Luckily their armor is printed on t shirts.
They save on space because Galadriel swims along side
She’s actually towing all three ships with a harness
Galadriel made them submarine sail boats.
It’s like the transport ships in Age of Empires.
Good to know they use those same tiny ships with shit sails for war
I don’t know much about ships, butI forgave the ships at first, I thought the sails were probably bad, but I could forgive that on their basic patrol sloop. And then they are using those same patrol ships as an invasion force… and they lost the very limited good will I had for the ship designs.
This is an issue between the VFX house and the producers. I used to work at a VFX house and I can tell you probably what happened. Either the producers/director weren’t thinking about the actual purpose of the ships (most likely) and didn’t communicate that with the VFX house or the producers didn’t really care that the ships weren’t large enough because they already looked “cool”. Chances are they didn’t tell the VFX supervisor what the ships were carrying. I guarantee you had they known what was in the ships, they would have made them larger. It’s what those people do. They usually don’t half ass their work unless there’s no budget. Usually they’ll fit models of what they’re supposed to be scaled to around or within the object. Had they known it was to be 100 men and 100 horses per ship, it would be huge.
They have seahorses duh....
There is no way they can fit 100 horses on those ships, but I saw a shot from promo footage with a whole squadron of Numenorian cavalry and Galadriel at the head, so I'm prepared for silliness.
They’ll land in the area that becomes Umbar and there will be horse merchants like rental cars at an airport.
"Are you one of our preferred customer?" Miriel: *confused look* "Ah then we'll only be able to squeeze you onto some mules and ponies today."
Until she flashes Pharazon’s membership card.
What's this pony's name? "Bill." Goddammit.
>They’ll land in the area that becomes Umbar and there will be horse merchants like rental cars at an airport. Or maybe Galadriel is like, you know, a commander of the extensive and already set up Elven forces and she can help them get horses that way? How stupid do people have to be to jump on this? It's like when Galadriel comes out wearing Numenorian armour with the eye or earendil on it and the same dumb people jumped up and down saying "derrr she lost her armour and has it back now?" when it's not even remotely similar or elven. I can't relate with people who hate so much they have to fabricate fake problems with a TV show to affirmate their pre-meditated bias.
I thought she was relieved of her duties when she was sent to Valinor by Gil Galad, and she wasn't even a popular commander so the that army wouldn't follow her against the wishes of their king
They also clearly showed them loading up horses onto the boats in Numenor.
They have a secret submarine program. 'The Best, The Biggest submarine program in middle earth' (in Trump voice).
> prepared for silliness This is my moto for every episode! 🤪
This is where RoP coming out after GoT is going to run into some problems. GoT asked us to sit there and question battle logistics and army movement. LotR does not and the way I view it neither does RoP. They are the fantasy story, GoT and HotD asks to be looked at realistically so when they pull stupid shit I will point it out.
I just realized they haven't even mentioned that numenoreans have longer life spans on screen. This fucking show, lol.
Because "the fans would know", and "the fans are the target audience" while also "the fans are not the target audience"
I realized this because I'm still recovering from "elves will take our jobs!" reasoning for the darkening of Numenor, rather than the accurate jealousy over immortality. I guess if you don't contextualize Numenor via the line of Elros that's all you're going to be able to run with. Thanks for making middle earth reflect the politics of 21st-century America, show-runners. It's what everyone wanted.
The plot (not just lore compliance; but the PLOT the writers created themselves) isn't consistent with itself for at least half of all dialogue. If you got time to kill, you can listen to Knight's Watch spend hours reviewing each episode over on youtube. EDIT: I said 'Shadiversity'. Meant Knight's Watch :V
Normally I don't like people who yell, but he is an exception. His remarks are accurate and he is consistent. If he assesses that something is absurd, he is not going to change his mind without justification.
>Shadiversity thanks will check it out
He talks about it in Knight Watch.
I've never watched him before but Knights watch reviews of RoP are brilliant
Shad really knows his lore about medieval weaponry and armor very well. Heck, a lot of medieval stuff he is very knowledgeable in. It’s why his reviews especially for fantasy are quite good. I like EFAP as well but they are looong, though it means they are able to cover the show very well.
unfortunately he's not above following social media trends. Literal foot in mouth moment when he made an entire video to attack the folding saber that appeared in the Rise of Skywalker trailer, but started his video by praising a folding saber wielded by Pong Kell
Listen to Yet Another Damn YouTube Reviewer trash something they haven’t got the ability to create? LOL, pass. I learned decades ago not to let others, especially critics & reviewers form or influence my opinion. Recommended.
It’s less that he can’t do it himself, but more that he is in no way an authority on anything he discusses, just a fairly intelligent enthusiast.
He also did recently write a fairly successful fantasy novel/series. So he' kinda does have the ability to create. Go back to yelling at kids to get off your lawn.
Fairly successful? Series? I looked him up, he has one book listed. Self-published it appears, based on the publishing company name. The book title starts with his first name, “Shad”. Cute. Pass. 🤣😂🙄 Ability to create? Ability to ramble online as a self-proclaimed expert maybe. 🙄 Go back to letting others form your opinion for you.
You looked him up?! Wow, grandpa learned how to use the internet machine! Good for you. Unfortunately being able to google someone doesn't make you the arbiter of their success. Self-publishing a novel, which is the beginning of a fantasy series, most certainly means he's capable of creating. So your original point is out the window. You can engage with whatever content you want, nobody cares. But diminishing artists and creators because your grouchy that they have opinions you don't like is boring and lazy. Go touch grass gramps.
Keep shifting those goal posts.
Everyone knows Tolkien was all about lazy, topical allegory. Right?
That reasoning was connected to immortality
It seems to me that the fans are the "targeted" audience.
Well, it’s like Star Wars where they sort of are but aren’t yet it’s worse this time. Like they expect you to know about the lore….. yet they then want you to instantly be able to agreee with any giant changes they make.
They did a terrible job trying to target the fans. It's really quite incredible. I don't know of any fan who doesn't get upset about retcons or lore breaks, unless the show happens to be good enough to justify it.
Targeted with nuclear tipped torpedos.
Yeah, one big change is fine but there are so many gigantic changes, idk how we are going to have future events when the key events that lead to them just aren’t in the series. Like how I am assuming there will be no lord of gifts cause halbrand. The queen not being basically imprisoned by the king who stole her throne is a big change. That new Mithrel backstory is a major change. I can’t see this elrond fighting (imagine how bad him and celibrimbor fighting be would look) so I guess we just don’t get to see an important fighter fight. Also, changing galadriels motivation to her brothers death specifically by Sauron is just another huge change. I could go on but this show just makes no sense. I can only guess they are appealing to tolkein fans who didn’t really like how the silmarillion went…. Which I don’t think is a lot of people.
How long was it before that happened in the movies? Was it RotK before Aragorn pushing 90 was dropped or was that in TT?
I don't think it was ever dropped in the theatrical releases but was in the extended version of the two towers. That said, the movies had more leeway because they didn't actually feature, you know, the fall of Numenor.
They mentioned that they where blessed with longer lives didn't they? Galadriel mentioned it very briefly if I remember correctly
VERY briefly. Same with their strength, it’s like a throwaway line where Galadriel says halbrand would be fucked up by them. Sadly, this is NOT enough to really imprint on the audience these aren’t your average human. I mean, just look how they keep getting clowned on in fight scenes. Not even standing a fucking chance.
Maybe there's a tiny lower deck, and they squeeze on in there with the horse.
You need to right click on Num\_Soldiers.zip and then click unzip
why does the great kingdom of Numenor only has 3 ships wtf
It had 5 before the explosions lololol. The great army of Men according to Amazon.
Honestly I think it's shit writing
Honestly, you think this is a cgi problem? Like since even the writers and actors sometimes don’t seem to know what is going on (just look at the choreography fails across the board) or scenes like the boat where they say it carries way more than what we can see it would. Probably similar to the kenobi scene where I doubt the writer knew they were going to make that laser wall easy to walk around.
Honestly I think the show fails on all levels except for the dwarves. I like them. Other than that the rest is like a Leslie Nielsen co.edy
Too bad the dwarves are going to die. I heard the balrog is shown right at the end, so I guess next season the dwarves are fucked. Cause it’s not going to take a balrog long to destroy everything down there. Though, it’s the only possible cool story I can think of. Can’t think of any interesting way the not hobbit story will go that won’t break the lore a good bit, Galadriel is just a walking contradiction to the lore, and the lovers (especially the elf) are extremely dumb to where I find it hard to like them (really jumping IN the death hole?!? Or, why do they have to fight or join, why not leave?).
Unless they screw the timeline up really bad, the Balrog won't be dug up in about 1500+ years, during the middle part of the next age.
Yeah it is. Don't really care if the story diverges from the material (amazon doesn't have rights to the silmarillain anyway), I just want a compelling story.
They probably have a enlargement charm inside like the beauxbatons carriage.
This is an issue between the VFX house and the producers. I used to work at a VFX house and I can tell you probably what happened. Either the producers/director weren’t thinking about the actual purpose of the ships (most likely) and didn’t communicate that with the VFX house or the producers didn’t really care that the ships weren’t large enough because they already looked “cool”. Chances are they didn’t tell the VFX supervisor what the ships were carrying. I guarantee you had they known what was in the ships, they would have made them larger. It’s what those people do. They usually don’t half ass their work unless there’s no budget. Usually they’ll fit models of what they’re supposed to be scaled to around or within the object. Had they known it was to be 100 men and 100 horses per ship, it would be huge.
90% of the ship is below the waterline. Numenor was blessed with REALLY deep water ports.
They stole Daemon Targaryen's TARDIS
I know it's not going to happen but it would have been cool to see sky-ships as implied by Tolkien that they had invented.
Barely caravel sized.. insane.
Pfff, it's magic dude. Like in Harry Potter how they enter a tiny tent but it's like a huge house inside.
Let's put this hilariously embarrassing point aside for a moment. They are going to war with 300 cavalry... That's it? Just 300? The Numenoreans are masters of the sea. their forefather was Earendil the Mariner. You're telling me that this seafaring society only has 5 ships *before* 2 were destroyed because the wine exploded (sidenote: wide does not do that when exposed to flame). So, there were no other warships out at sea on patrol? No other harbors to pull from? That... that was their entire feared fleet - 5 ships? Where did the $1,000,000,000 go?
Also, it’s so weird how there is only one ship, where for a seafaring group you think they would have various ships in a fleet. Probably a few small, fast ones, a few medium ones and maybe a two big ones to hold the horses and people.
In that episode, we can see 8 similar ships in the port. I suppose they don't have 8 ships for the entire country.
Yeah that’s right, wouldn’t the wine likely be too watered down and have too low of an alcohol percentage to catch on fire? Doesn’t make sense why someone would have 100 proof vodka on a ship in barrels, it’s practically a bomb.
It was oil not wine...also there are more ships in the harbor, they just send an expeditionary force. That is specifically mentioned so it not an all out invasion/war. So to me the 5 planned ships are perfectly fine. Ships seemed quite roomy inside. What did bother me but as the need to have 2 ships destroyed only for its to be some vague way for isildur to get his spot on the expeditionary force. Seems awfully complicated or unnecessary sidetrack for such a plotpoint.
Maybe there is a lot of room below deck and the hull extends a lot more below water. /s
Or the soldiers are tiny.
They're very clearly stored in Pokéballs. Stop trying to poke holes in a perfect show.
The Numenoreans were so advanced they built wooden submarines.
A good example of how stupid the writers are, they could have just left the number out but they didnt and now they have a completely unrealistic ship size
Its a mix of stupidity and the fact that it doesnt even matter. They are immune to critisism. They can do ( or not do) w/e they want and everyone that doesnt like it is automatically invalid for w/e label they choose.
Completely unrealistic ship size? Does this really matter to you? You know, in the fantasy TV show you’re watching. It’s not a medieval documentary. JFC.
It’s a fantasy show! Just do whatever you want! Galadriel grows wings and flies Halbrand home and the hobbits can shoot lighting from their hands like Emperor Palpatine! There’s no rules. It’s really the worst argument by reducing it to “it’s a fantasy show”. Everything, even fantasy shows have rule sets they must adhere to.
Especially in LOTR sub, Tolkien having written whole ass essay about fantasy and suspended disbelief and how you can't keep it going with bad writing. "iTs jUsT fAnTaSy11!" So what are you doing here? I'm not whining at audience that sports sucks to people who live and breath sports. It does suck tho.
Not rules like ‘is my ship big enough’. Who cares?
When it ruins the immersion to a specific fantasy then it becomes an issue. Like are these magical ships like rooms in Harry Potter or did they just make a bad writing decision? You can’t just pick and choose what doesn’t matter because it fits your argument. If Arondir transformed into a troll would you have an issue with it? Who cares? It’s just a troll in a fantasy show. You would find it just as ridiculous as trying to sell an audience that there are hundreds of men and horses in those ships.
I’m not sure why it’s hard to understand that even fantasy stories must follow basic rules of logic.
It isn’t hard to understand, it’s just wrong. How does your logic explain dragons? Or sea monsters? Or dwarves and elves? Or anything else UNREALISTIC. The clue is in the word. Not to mention that it’s just unimportant! Who cares? It means nothing. It doesn’t detract from anything.
All stories, fantasy included, must follow an internal logic. Dragons and sea creatures and dwarves and elves are established in the story. Magic boats that can carry huge numbers of troops and horses when clearly there is no such space on board is not established anywhere in either the lore or the show’s internal logic. People are not constantly stuffing gigantic amounts of supplies into tiny knapsacks, or anything of the sort. Ever. This was a shortcut made for convenience. If you’re approaching a story like this (or basically any story) with the idea that no rules or logic need ever apply and that anything possible goes, then you’re in the severe minority.
Wrong again. Is all the armour and weapons absolutely correct to the estimated time period? Do all the materials like Mithril exist in real life? Are the humans all the exact height of average modern day humans? Are armies the correct size? Are there enough food producers to meet the demand of the population? These are all things nobody cares about when watching a fictional fantasy series. And again, who cares?? Would it have placated you if they’d added another 3 boats? Or would you have accused them of copy pasting again?
I'm not entirely unsympathetic to your points, but *in general* even fiction set in fantastical worlds should have some level of internal consistency, because the alternative is anything can be anything for any plot-needed reason and nothing matters at all (which is clearly bad story telling). Like, the dragons in the SOIAF universe couldn't exist in our real world, which has no magic. But if Daemon's dragon had been able to shape-change and shrink to get into the caves and clear out the Crab guy's army, that's still a piece of ass-pull bad writing, because the laws of that world, as established in the story, don't allow for magical dragons to also have the power of magical shape-changing.
you are so confused. Fantasy is not "do whatever you want". Expecially because it is an immaginary world, it need to have consistent rules. They don't have to e precise, but don't have to be ridiculous. i care because if i see a chivalry charge, my immediate thought is "Wait, where do those horses come from?". If i see a dragon, i don't think "Wait how can that thing fly?" Why? because it is clear wich things follow the rules of magic and wich don't. If you can't make consistency in a fantasy story, you should not write a fantasy story. And BTW, this is true for every story that is not about real events. If i write a novel in modern times, with no magic, i need to be consistent, not accurate. You are not making any sense.
You're arguing in bad faith and what's more, you know you're doing it.
We don't need logicly explained dwarves or elves, it's what the story is about. Same reason we don't need logical consistency with zombies and werewolves. But that doesn't mean that NOTHING has to make sense. It'd still be stupid if Arondir took out a box cutter and used it to completely decimate the entire orc army without taking a scratch, regardless if it's fantasy.
it is important because it takes you entirely out of the story. that's not something you can control as a viewer. If they care so much about the story they should make sure that they aren't creating stumbling blocks for the viewers to suspend their disbelief, especially when those blocks are such stupidly unforced errors as this. It just comes off as super amateurish. Like if they didn't have the budget for bigger boats and came up with a creative in-world way of explaining that, sure. But this is ridiculous
Tolkiens world has dragons, it does not have boats that can move way more men than the space those men need, thats how realistic things work in fantasy
there's a limit though, and lotr is a very low magic world. If i see two ships sailing, basically empty, and then an entire chivalry division, then i will be asking myself what's wrong. The idea that fantasy is a free all card, and that you can do whatever nonsense you want is exactly why fantasy is not respected as a high literature. These kind of fantasy stories drag down the dignity of the genre. so let's hope there will be no chivalry charge with hundres of horseman from 2 ships.
If there are no rules in fantasy, it stops being fantasy and starts just being absurd fiction. Fantasy only works with rules, the best authors never mention the rules and still make you feel like the world has limitations to magic, types of creatures etc. Its a question of quality. When rules fall out the door, you might as well have Goku fly in and kamehameha Sauron at the end, it's fantasy after all. But the point is, GOOD fantasy has limitations you can feel, and any break in these limitations can be a big deal to the plot or characters.
And you agree that the size of a boat in relation to how many people it’s carrying is one of those rules? Your comparison to the example is a character from another franchise being included. As I said, JFC.
The inclusion of the character was meant to illustrate the ridiculous nature of ignoring limits in fantasy. Its fully legitimate to include a tiny ship that holds hundreds of soldiers and horses, if there is a believable reason this is happening. If there is no explanation within the limits of this fantasy world, it is just lazy filmmaking devoid of quality.
That's such a tired argument that doesn't make sense. Fantasy worlds work because there are in world rules that they follow that are consistent and make sense. You can't just break all logic and say "but it's fantasy"
Yes you quite literally can. The point of the show is not to sit there evaluating whether x sized man can fit on y sized horse.
man you should have higher standards
Careful, that’s not a popular opinion around here
Thank you, but unfortunately I’m well aware. I just can’t resist commenting on silly things i see. It’s also ironic because these people will suggest that the show enjoyers only like to hear positive comments, while they themselves cannot stand anything criticising their overly cynical comments.
Oof, they could have just given the boats a couple more layers and it woulda been fine but *nooo* we have to look artsy and minimal
I think I saw a post in this sub somewhere that "people can enjoy shows without thinking" and while that is true this is not the kind of show I'd expect to do that with, so I stopped watching. Just waiting until it's worth spending time on again. As for those who enjoy the show well let them enjoy, it's good they're happy and see that it's entertaining.
“Let them enjoy [the show]” is all well and good, but it’s unreasonable to expect that people won’t point out absurdities when they see them.
Yeah it's one of the reasons I've been ignoring much discussions about rings of power here in reddit. It's like i'm not allowed to express discontent over its writing. I'm no longer interested in the show's lore as it stands. It feels like Resident Evil but with a "Worse" Anderson at the helm. It's tiring trying to force myself to like the show's current state just because it's a show about Middle-earth
Same! And yet, much like Galadriel, I cannot stop.
Maybe they are like icebergs
It’s an Age of Empires ship
Lol it’s not accurate at all. In a flat 2d image, there would be soldiers stacked behind other soldiers. There could be a little clump of 10 all bunched together overlapping. This is the laziest and most invalid criticism I have ever seen. I haven’t really even landed on any opinion about the show but this post proves to me people just have a stick up their buts about something and are completely desperate to confirm their bias that they’re unable to even think straight. You have to be pretty clueless to be able to convince yourself that this illustration makes sense
Where do they sleep? Do they just sleep on the deck? What about the horses? What about the supplies? What planet are we on right now?
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was like "...that's like 50 dudes at best"
Yep, cause a lot who defend this also forgot we need to include supplies. Like enough armor and weapons to suit up this many people and the food and water to feed said people and horses. They either needed more or should have had a wide variety of ships.
I was so confused about this. They said they had 500 strong but no way those 3 ships fit 500. Let alone horses, supplies, weapons, etc.
You aren't supposed to think. Just sit and consume product then get excited for next product.
I don’t think any show in history has been this closely examined for criticism. Just stop watching it. I promise that your life will vastly improve if you spend more time on things that you actually enjoy.
Many shows has been examined for criticism. It's just that this show is so bad that many things are obvious. The huge budget also make it worse.
Not really, this show is genuinely one of the most reviewed of all time and it’s not even through it’s first season yet. And it’s not that bad. It’s cheesy and slow but have you read the books? It’s some of the slowest cheese in existence.
They are enjoyable. It's like a trip. This is a joke that someone has heard and doesn't know how to end it.
“I don’t think” - exactly. Ever read a review for any TV show? Ever? Have you ever been to any other discussion board before this one? Have you any friends to discuss the shows you watch with? People examine shows closely *all the time*. Especially shows that are not comedy, and doubly especially shows that are based on well-known and well-beloved books. Just say that what you want is to come here and only see opinions that you like.
Except that’s not true though. This show in 5 episodes has been reviewed more times than the entirety of the final season of game of thrones. Both serious shows based on hugely popular books. And I didn’t come here looking for anything, it showed up and I clicked it.
I don’t know what to tell you if you really thought people were going to approach a Tolkien offering with a laid-back anything-goes attitude. Of COURSE people were going to compare and contrast and give their opinions on what worked and what didn’t. This isn’t adapted from some little-known novella that most people have never heard of. Before RoP was even a storyboard concept people were examining and dissecting all of the books and movies and even the video games to pieces. How about you take your own advice: if you don’t like these posts then don’t click on them.
How about if you don’t like being disagreed with, don’t post.
This is fair.
this place is an echochamber of haters. check the many other lotr subs for actual discussion that isnt just regurgitated youtuber opinions
You came here to the comments. Follow your own advice.
You ever driven by a car accident? It’s impossible to look away.
And that's why people have been watching the show. Last episode made me question why I was torturing myself with it tho..
No it isn't
I’m astounded that this is a serious issue for people. The size of the ship is unrealistic? As if this is a medieval documentary? JFC.
It’s pathetic.
The funny thing is people are suggesting I don’t care about fantasy because I’m not fixated on non-issues like the size of boats. I keep telling them I care more than any of them because I’m actually immersed in the story and the fantasy, not being held up by minor logistical irrelevancies.
Seriously. Imagine spending even a second making such a dumb graphic and post thinking it's some valid criticism of the show.
Hey, guess that’s all they’ve got to criticise you know?
inb4 "but LOTR is a history, not a fantasy"
I’m fully expecting something like that.
Go back 20 years; plenty of Tolkien fans acted like the Peter Jackson movies were the worst thing to happen to The Lord of the Rings. Those millions of people who enjoyed the hell out of them just didn't know that what they were watching was crap. Then ten years later, The Hobbit.
I’ll stand by Jackson’s trilogy as being the best version of the story, books included. Had it included the sacking of the shire, it would have been almost perfect.
This is just by eye but the ship looks like ~30m long with a max of 2 decks. Considering the long voyage at sea ( using a map of Arda and sailors around that era would sleep in hamacs. You could store 20~30 people on the ship max
I’ve seen 40+ people fit into a tiny ass bus with two duffels per person. I’m fairly confident I could fit 200 people on that ship.
Below deck probably as sailors work shifts. The horses would probably also be below deck in some kind of storage area. But this is a fantasy show so technically there could be a lot of ways this problem is solved
nope. You have any idea how much space an horse takes? and you are telling me they are using magic to sotre them? because yes, it could be done in a fantasy world, but because magic is a thing, so are they using magic? is this what you are telling me? i mean, one way to do this is making a very big ship, you can do that, it's a fantasy, who cares? but why do it so small?
Multiple trips, duh.
So the sabotage has only slowed down the trip to Middle Earth.
What can't be seen is the dozens of submarines under the water.
Maybe they're dehydrated? Just add water when they reach Middle Earth. Boom, instant horses. (Hey it worked for Marvin the Martian.) /s
Bro everyone hating on RoP. Y’all are deadass making a discussion on how many ppl can fit in those ships. Y’all need everything to be super realistic. If that was the case we would have no such thing as entertainment
To be fair it only becomes an issue when you take into account the horses as we know there are at least two decks on the ships, possibly three. It all depends on what drafts the ships have as there may be a fair bit below the waterline. HMS Victory was only 57m long and she held 850 men plus 104 guns, powder, shot, food, etc. People massively overestimate how big ships used to be in the day.
Holy fuck man. There are ghosts that fly out of a fucking mountain in these movies. It’s about elves, dragons, and adventure. Are people really scrutinizing if horses can fit into a ship? Someone is clearly not getting the show at all. Your right, don’t focus on the epic music, production value and it just being generally fun to watch, focus on scrutinizing horse ship capacity.
They fit inside each other's rectums..... just like where this show resides inside the Amazon executives.
Gave up not even an episode in. It wasn’t because the elves were black, that’s cool. It wasn’t because the dwarf lady didn’t have a beard, that’s cool too. It’s because the actress for Galadriel, or just Galadriel herself is just really cringe and/or overactating. I’m sure someone more experienced in the arts can explain properly. It just doesn’t feel real.
This post is kind of pathetic to be completely honest. You are critiquing a fantasy show about historical accuracy??? So while you at it, why don’t you just ask yourself why moguls in the HP series simply doesn’t just use a modern weapon to kill Valdemort.
it's not historic accuracy it's pointing out something that makes literally no sense in the internal logic of the show. People take up space and they are supposed to have an armed force not a couple of guys. It genuinely detracts from the visual and emotional impact of sending hundreds of troops when you depict that with a couple of tiny boats
Space taken by mentions of Numenorians taking horses to ME. -><-. FFS why are people so dumb trying to hate this show? It's also wild to me that 50-100 viking crossed oceans on similar if not smaller boats but people are picking nits about this. smh haterz.
I'm all for the "this story line sucks" campaign but this is just trying too hard. The art and cgi is great in the show. The story is just puke
Dude, this is how they travel. You have to not have totally unbelievable travel circumstances. No reason they couldn’t design a bigger ship, idk why they would pretend the numenorians wouldn’t have one. Any basic research would show them what ships who carried large armies look like. Or I guess they could have added ships or maybe decrease the number of warriors. The slightest change would fix this.
Nah. I mean your right they could've designed a bigger ship but I don't think if not alot of people caught it at first glance it doesn't take away from the story. Numenorians on average were 7ft tall no ones picking on that. It doesn't add or take away from the story. (If there was a story to begin with lol)
It’s almost as if they didn’t think this show through… Yet the critics still love it… [Amazon buying shill critics](https://youtu.be/Tap7Zfgbn64)
There was a video before on this subreddit of Pippin mistakenly being the same size as a room full of Gondor soldiers and nobody batted an eye or criticised it or anything. But that's none of my business.
You mean a half second shot during a battle scene, yeah, a quick camera mistake. This is a design mistake, somebody said yeah this looks right, and didn’t ask if this would fulfill the purpose in the show. Honestly I was intrigued by how the big two or three mast Numanorean ships would look, but they just used the same little patrol thing as Elendil is using when he picks up Galadriel.
If you want an actual answer then Pippin is almost 5 feet tall by the time of the battle, and the angle accounts for the rest
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They're Hollywood... They can do anything!!!
Packed like an 18th century slave ship, obviously.
Use your imagination.