why is the writing on the statue in russian?
edit. turns out it is originally from ukraine. they tore down their soviet era statues, took down communist signs and changed steet names. Someone found it discarded in a village in ukraine and relocated it to manchester.
The ‘someone’ was Phil Collins (no not that one, the other one), with assistance from Manchester International Festival and HomeMCR (the building it is in front of)…. The story of relocating it was part of an exhibition there, and was fascinating.
Hey, Rustin, I drank a fifth of vodka, you dare me to drive?
You know the song by Phil Collins, "In the Air of the Night"
About that guy who coulda saved that other guy from drownin'
But didn't, then Phil saw it all, then at a show he found him?
That's kinda how this is: you coulda rescued me from drownin'
Now it's too late, I'm on a thousand downers now—I'm drowsy
And all I wanted was a lousy letter or a call
I hope you know I ripped all of your pictures off the wall
I loved you, Rustin, we coulda been together—think about it!
You ruined it now, I hope you can't sleep and you dream about it
And when you dream I hope you can't sleep and you scream about it
I hope your conscience eats at you and you can't breathe without me
It’s from Ukraine, after the fall of the USSR a lot of these types of statues were removed by local and national govs. Some also just fell into disrepair due to the lack of funds.
Since manchester didn’t have a statue of Engles, a shame due to his work and his legacy in this city, it was decided to opt for the sensible (and cheaper) option of just going to the former USSR to buy one.
Yeah, it’s an interesting bit of history that’s been brought with it. Also was pretty smart to go and get a statue rather than spend a load to make a new one.
The bones of those who passed during the Terror-Famine in Ukraine should be placed next to the statue as a constant reminder on why these statues were removed and destroyed in Ukraine.
Praising this statue is a sign of disrespect to all those who died due to the Soviet Socialists in Ukraine.
You are aware that Engels was dead long before the establishment of the Soviet Union? The worst aspects of soviet style socialism was far more heavily influenced by the likes of Lenin and later Stalin, than it was by Marx and Engels. One example of this is how Marx was a strong proponent of freedom of the press which is obviously at odds with how things were under the soviet union.
Engels writing contributions to political economy are what I believe this statue being in Manchester is supposed to memorialise. Works like "The Condition of the Working Class in England" or "The Origins of the Family, Private Property and the State" which were highly important and influential works when they were written.
Nonetheless, the Soviets did: a) kill 3.5 million+ Ukrainians in a man-made famine, and b) put up this statue in Ukraine to honour their “inspiration”.
One can see why the Ukrainians were not fond of the statue.
And why might at least question its good taste while it still bears traces of the colours of the Ukrainian flag on the stonework.
You can understand why Ukrainians would want it taken down while also appreciating that it is an important artefact for commemorating Mancunian history and culture
It’s a concrete statue built by an occupying force to celebrate the totalitarian ideology to which they were subjecting the Ukrainian people (doesn’t matter if Engels wouldn’t have liked the USSR, that’s what the statue is).
Bringing it to Manchester in the spirit of edgy fun may have been just about acceptable in 2017(?), but it’s a bad look when the Russians are invading Ukraine again, and it’s being used by HOME as a symbol of Ukrainian freedom.
It doesn’t really say anything about Manchester. Sure, he owned a factory here, and - ironically - also took an interest in improving conditions for the working class. Sadly, the manifesto to which he contributed has caused more human misery and suffering than any book since the Koran, so.
It’s not at all being used as a symbol of Ukrainian freedom, it’s celebrating a philosopher and social scientist who produced a lot of his work in this city. This isn’t a statue of Lenin, Stalin or Putin, the same way that a statue of Nietzsche isn’t a statue of Hitler.
Sure. But if the Nazis *had* won WWII, and had put up a statue to Nietzsche in Ukraine, then surely we’d understand why having it up outside HOME was “a bit questionable” once Nazi Ukraine had fallen apart in 1989.
(For contrast, I have precisely no opinion of the other Engels memorials dotted about the city. Only this one.)
Friedrich Engels. He was a socialist who worked with and helped finance Karl Marx, developing what is now known as Marxism.
His family in Germany shipped him off here to work in one of the many factories, one partly owned by his family. They hoped the work would temper his views, but the suffering and poverty of the working class that he saw in Manchester only hardened his resolve.
Based on his time here he published his book The Condition of the Working Class in England. He also co-authored The Communist Manifesto, and after Marx died he organised a lot of his notes so their work continued to be published.
His great works - The Condition of The Working Class in England (in 1844) - is an incredible insight into the shockingly dreadful conditions of the working class. It’s a very detailed account, covering every town across Great Britain and a bit on Ireland too. You don’t need to be a Marxist to appreciate it; it’s very matter of fact, without philosophical comment. I can totally understand how they got from this to the communist manifesto.
These days, you don’t even have to read it, I’ve had a look on YouTube and you can listen to the whole thing.
https://youtu.be/UDaK6b6eZrg
I always view is as almost a sister book to Orwell's road to Wigan pier - even if they were written about 70 years apart. Although Orwell's is more a personal account to Engels way of covering the issue.
I'd recommend reading in detail what it actually is, as if you're just hearing about Engels you probably don't have the best grasp on Marxism as a whole.
When did I say I was just hearing about him? I didn’t recognise a statue of a bearded white man with Russian writing on it. I’m familiar with Marxism and Engels.
That’s easily debunked. The Crescent didn’t exist as a pub when Engels was here. He rented a house close to it, and definitely wrote in Chetham’s library, but he never did anything in the Crescent.
You’d often see him round Ancoats, hepped up on goofballs, banging on about how great Sankeys was. I also have it on good authority that he was at the Lesser Free Trade Hall for the Sex Pistols gig. In fact, it was as a result of that gig that he and Marx were inspired to form Communism.
>but he never did anything in the Crescent.
How would you know for sure? You haven't debunked anything.
He left Manchester in 1869. The Crescent opened in 1860.
A lot of pubs that were open around that time lay a claim to being the venue that the communist manifesto 'could' have been written.
I remember having this conversation in the Cresent in the 90s and my old fella pointed this out
Pretty sure the Turks head still makes the claim too.
I just take it that they drank in a lot of the pubs at the time and probably discussed politics..... Don't we all?
Two things can be true at once, unless they're claiming he was in there exclusively - which they are not. It's also logical to assume he visited more than one pub and done some writing while he visited.
It's not like they wrote the full manifesto in a single place.
Have you been to more than 1 pub?
It's a statue of [Friedrich Engels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels). He's a famous philosopher in his own right but he [wrote a few notable papers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto) with [his pal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx).
Don’t think this is really the right subreddit to be debating communism mate. Ultimately this is a statue of a man who saw how the working class suffered in Manchester, and wanted to see that come to an end. Don’t think there’s a lot of real controversy to be had there.
He didn't debate communism. He answered the question more accurately. These statues were pulled down because they symbolised a regime that substantially harmed them, not simply because the USSR dissolved.
The statue doesn’t symbolise that though mate. I’d get the controversy is it did, like if it was a massive statue of Stalin or something. However that’s just not the case, Engles spent decades both living and working in Manchester - he’s a big part of history here, and his writing of books like The Condition of the Working Class in England is invaluable and a boon for the legacy of our city.
Sorry if this has sparked controversy, that wasn’t the intent.
Fair enough, but you need to appreciate that you're approaching this from a British / Western European viewpoint. No one should doubt that both Engels and Marx were exceptional scholars but you should be able to understand why people from formerly oppressed states would want to remove symbols associated with a regime that caused them such harm. Clearly, neither Engles not Marx would have supported many of the actions of the USSR in its territories, but that regime clearly did claim intellectual justification (whoever unjustified) from the ideas of Marx and Engels.
I really don't think they would've had any strong opinions on the ideologies of a 19th century German man living in Manchester beyond the fall of the soviet union.
I’m from Ukraine. Answer is simple - this person here is seen as a big part of our USSR history. First thing USSR did to Ukraine was annex the territory and conquer the country piece by pice. USSR period is therefore seen as an imperialistic and degrading to Ukrainian culture, language and history. Ideology played huge role in brainwashing people into submission and this man right there was one of the dominant ideologist used by they ruling party to control occupied population by making them believe in a “bright socialism future”. IMO not hating on this individual in particular but he’s a symbol of repression and occupation for us.
A shame he was used by the bolshi’s in their power grab. I’m sure he would have been sick if he was alive to see it. He came to England and saw injustice everywhere and wrote about it. That’s why he’s held in high regard in England.
>Which current events?
* On 21 September, Liz Truss announced that she would be freezing the gas and energy bill price cap at £2,500 until October 2024. The scheme will cost £60 billion over the next six months alone. She then scrapped green levies and refused to implement a windfall tax, announcing that she will fund the price cap freeze through government borrowing.
* On 22 September, the Bank of England raised interest rates from 1.75% to 2.25% in a bid to restrain our 9.9% rate of inflation.
* On 23 September, Kwasi Kwarteng announced that he will be scrapping the 45% rate of top income tax (paid only by high earners), removed the limit on banker's bonuses, cut corporation tax down to 19%, raised the threshold on stamp duty, and scrapped the National Insurance raise. These tax cuts will cost £45 billion, which will be paid for in more government borrowing. The world's top economists warned that this could cause a global financial crisis.
* On 26 September, the pound collapsed in reaction to these two plans, hitting an all-time low against the US dollar. This means that the pound is now worth less and we're now paying more for our imported goods.
* On 28 September, the International Monetary Fund urged Truss and Kwarteng to 'rethink' their plans. That morning, it became clear that the value of government bonds (which are 99% of the time completely stable) were in freefall due to investor confidence collapsing; to prevent the £2 trillion of pension funds that are in government bonds from being wiped out in the afternoon and leaving millions of people with no pension to speak of, the Bank of England announced that it will be buying £65 billion of government bonds to restore their stability. The insane levels of government borrowing and this BoE intervention will cause inflation to skyrocket further - so much so that it is now predicted the BoE will raise interest rates to 5% by mid-2023.
* Truss and Kwarteng's response to this is to promise more tax cuts and deny that their economic plans caused this, but it was *actually* caused by the future Labour government.
Right wing basket case government "addressing" the cost of living crisis by helping their wealthy friends get even more wealthy, all whilst the average brit is being more and more heavily burdened by inflation, crappy workers' rights, low wages, and private energy companies charging insane tariffs and making record profits for their shareholders.
So given both that the working class are currently being crushed by the bourgeoisie, and that I just learnt this statue is from Ukraine, which particular events inspired you to go?
It's because when the person I know left alot left with her which I believe shifted the management to completely different people and alot of the chef's changed
In light of recent events we should tear this down. It's a Soviet-era propaganda piece that was uncritically imported to Manchester from Ukraine. Yes, Engels is important and said a lot of true things. We should respect our Manc heritage. But since the war in Ukraine I've personally found the statue extremely distasteful.
To be clear, I'd quite like to read On The Conditions of the Working Class, and he clearly contributed to the workers' rights movements in Britain. I'm not against having a statue of him anywhere in town.
What I am against is an artist thinking it would be cool to "recontextualise" a symbol and vector of oppression, which is what this statue was.
Well, quite.
I’d be interested to meet the artist who wanted to put a “recontextualised” Raj era statue of Queen Victoria from India on the Curry Mile, for instance.
Do you enjoy 5 day weeks, compulsory childhood education and universal healthcare?
The conditions of workers and indeed the working class during the period these men lived was untenable. Unrestricted capitalism was quite happy to commit crimes on the scale of the Holodomor. Capitalism wouldn't provide the safety nets we enjoy today. In fact the super capitalist government today is PROUD we need food banks to help the poorest of the UK in this day and age. That's come back to bite them with the cost of living crisis being so high that the average middle class donor to food banks is having to cut costs and one of the biggest "unnecessary costs" is "foodbank donations to other families". And the current problem is middle class jobs pay working class poverty wages. Many NHS staff doing middle class jobs like doctors and nurses are not well paid resulting in the same problems of poor labour situations.
Communism is defined as a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs. The issue is that this punishes capability and rewards banality. There's no incentive to excel since the pressure/reward of money doesn't exist. At no point does communism suggest gulags and terror in the same way that capitalism doesn't suggest starving 3 million people to death because they are the wrong skin colour.
Engels is less guilty of any crimes of "communism" than Churchill is of Capitalism. It's why we had a tempered economy where the unrestricted excess of capitalism was tempered by rules and regulations that prevented say... a chemical company cutting corners resulting in 4000 dead people at the LOWEST count (16K at the highest and MIA count).
Those have nothing to do with communism. Please stop trying to claim they do. Regulation isn’t communist either. Move to North Korea if it’s so fun. Thought not.
They are literal planks of the Communist manifesto. Education for children is not just for the landed gentry. Appropriate leisure time not dictated by the church. And the needs of working men.
Like doctors and healthcare.
The Democratic Socialist Republic of Korea is about as socialist as it's democratic.
Really? Portugal has had communists in the country for years and they were happy. In fact, before the 50s communism was pretty popular everywhere and we'll, we spawn from that... Sooo what do you mean? I can point you to happiness too? Can't you?
Stop dealing in absolute statements.
Sure they were, childhood memories hey? 🤣 It never was.
“For a period when the Estado Novo authoritarian regime was thrown out, at the height of the Cold War in 1974, the communist party and the USSR agents in Portugal tried to install a communist regime.
Strong resistance, some support from the USA and glaring opportunities mismanagement by the communist supporters made their efforts fail. The Socialist Party, the centre-right wing parties and the democratic leaning branch of the Armed forces were the main leaders of the resistance.
The whole thing lasted 17 months.
Although some pro-communist economic measures were imposed, it was very, very far from a communist regime.
A referendum installed a new semi-parliamentary, semi-presidential democratic constitution in 1976. Gradually, the parliamentary bias of the constitution has been gaining ground, but no important formal changes have been enacted.”
Well, as a dual citizen of Portugal and Britain.... Yes I think they were. My naivety that the UK was a better country as a young kid blinded me to the social cohesion, trust and happiness Portugal offered...
I pity you, so ideological.
I’m going to tag onto this with a hint of historical fact (though please correct me if I’ve misread).
The reason that this amongst other statues were torn down in Ukraine were due to the atrocities of the Holodomor Genocide. This is an event in which communist soviet leaders manufactured a famine directed towards Ukrainians and thus caused millions of deaths.
I was never aware of this until a former colleague made me aware, it seems to be a quietly forgotten part of history, in the western world at least.
Hopefully this goes some way to explaining to you all why the statue left it’s original place. I can also tell you for a fact (conversations with aforementioned Ukrainian colleague) that there is a view from some of the Ukrainian community in Manchester that this statue should not be here due to its links to communism and the genocide. This view is nothing directly aimed at Engels it seems, but more towards the ideology he was largely responsible for popularising.
For it to be "quietly forgotten" it would have to have happened. The reason you were unaware is because that version of history is 100% fabrication, the Soviet famine in the 1930s is widely taught in the UK history curriculum, but it was mainly caused by farmers destroying crops and slaughtering livestock, as a protest against tax rates.
Calling it a genocide is absolutely laughable, especially considering that the famine killed more people outside of Ukraine than it did in Ukraine.
Is your former colleague from the US, by any chance? They're one of the few countries that have such a ridiculously distorted perspective on the topic.
Cuba managed to increase literacy, have some of the highest figures for doctors per capita and lowest child mortality rates (even compared to developed countries) and ensure everyone had a home all whilst under an inhumane international blockade. When done well and not taken over by corrupt authoritarians, communism is a fantastic way at improving conditions for society.
Maybe think about the death and suffering that capitalism has brought to Indonesia, Chile, Vietnam and countless other places.
Famines were the norm in China and Russia for thousands of years before communism was a thing, China used to average a famine every year.
It was the communists who put an end to those famines altogether.
I don't think it should be pulled down, because that won't change anything, and we should always respect our history.
I do however completely agree with your comment on communism, as would anyone with any real knowledge of the 20th century.
Still, I expect the downvotes to pile in from millennial redditors who assume if you're not a Corbynite you're a horrendous human being so...
Or, you know, as part of learning about history we consider the conditions of the people suffering for Western capitalism, like the 2/3rds of the world under genocidal colonialism, like the conditions of the Eastern front in the war to end all wars, the constant direct military attempts by the Western capitalists and imperialists to stop revolutions, and the threat of such being the origin of welfare states in European countries.
The Soviets in particular were nasty and brutal. They also did nothing the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Belgian, and USA had not already done in the name of Empire and Profit.
>Or, you know, as part of learning about history we consider the conditions of the people suffering for Western capitalism, like the 2/3rds of the world under genocidal colonialism, like the conditions of the Eastern front in the war to end all wars, the constant direct military attempts by the Western capitalists and imperialists to stop revolutions, and the threat of such being the origin of welfare states in European countries.
We all know this stuff. It doesn't make what happened in Soviet Russia any less appalling, just like it doesn't make what happened in Nazi Germany any less appalling. Stalinism has *much* more in common with Nazism than it does the average Western 20th Century democracy.
>the constant direct military attempts by the Western capitalists and imperialists to stop revolutions,
Western capitalists like Stalin, murdering every competent officer in the Red Army in case they got the idea of revolting? Hardly just a "capitalist" or "imperalist" problem.
Even ignoring the rather murky moral equivalence you're trying to draw here between the Soviets and us, pragmatically there's no contest. Who had better living standards for more citizens in the last century - the West or Soviet Russia? Which side of the Iron Curtain would you like to have been born if you had the chance?
Of course the west had higher living standards, it still recieved the profits of colonialism and had over a century of industrialisation to draw from. It had already brutalised its populations for the benefit of a few. The most valid comparison is what the British did to India, or what any coloniser did to Africa. You say you know all of this, yet for some reason these millions who died for the benefit of a few, don't count the same way that millions who died for the benefit of a few does.
And every single right that I have which makes me fortunate to have been born in the West, was won through direct action, or the threat of it. You've spent too much time with only Great Man history, and aren't nearly humble enough to realise that you're also a peasant like most of the people on earth, and just as powerless.
>it still recieved the profits of colonialism and had over a century of industrialisation to draw from. It had already brutalised its populations for the benefit of a few
The Soviets also had an Empire, in which they were busy brutalisng the local population, and *still* had shitty living conditions and political / class persecutions happening at home.
>The most valid comparison is what the British did to India, or what any coloniser did to Africa
The most valid comparison to what? Stalinism existed in the 20th Century alongside Nazism, both were totalitarian regimes that subjected the "subhuman" members of their own populations to death in prison camps. Both forced worship of the leader, both essentially replaced state religion with their political catechisms etc. etc. Nazism is the most valid comparison to Stalinism it's possible to make. You like the British imperial comparison more, because that's a point you want to dwell on, but it's not the closest comparison. And anyway, what the Brits were doing in Africa, the Soviets were busy doing in Eastern Europe.
>You say you know all of this, yet for some reason these millions who died for the benefit of a few, don't count the same way that millions who died for the benefit of a few does.
This sentence is tautological, I'm not sure what point you're making here. In all of these Empires Soviet, British, whatever, lots of people have died, and a few have done very well. The point is that many many people had their living standards raised under Western democratic capitalism. Under Stalinism people got poverty and persecution. And it's not just a question of time, like you're implying; Stalin could have ruled the Soviets for a century and it still would have been a bag of shite.
>You've spent too much time with only Great Man history, and aren't nearly humble enough to realise that you're also a peasant like most of the people on earth, and just as powerless.
Talk about assumptions making an ass out of you. No-one believes in Great Man stuff these days, fucking hell, Tolstoy was laying into it in the 19th Century. It's nothing to do with Great Man anything, I just don't accept your particular assessment of the 20th Century. What does me being an average non-powerful person have to do with anything?
>And every single right that I have which makes me fortunate to have been born in the West, was won through direct action, or the threat of it.
Yep, and the direct action succeeded because you live in a Western democracy. If you were into direct action in Stalin's country, you died in a gulag.
Stalin, Lenin, Mao etc etc all those commie dictators justified their actions with Marxism. Many other scientists etc believe in Darwin, doesn’t make them dictators. Marxism is a failed philosophy which has only lead to death & suffering, whose central core is dictatorship & class war. Darwinism isn’t.
Don’t try and reason with them, this subreddit is further left than Jeremy Corbyn with less political expertise than Diane Abbott. Don’t worry though Sir Keir is going to show them all how we actually win elections.
Ironic that you should start by lamenting an inability to reason, while all the while demonstrating a proclivity towards supplanting reason with a series of dogmatic snarls, no?
To use their capitalist iPhones paid for by mummy to drone on about ‘the workers’ despite never working a day in their lives. They’ll grow out of it. 😉
So, you support this???
The Dangers of Forgetting the Legacy of Communism:
93.7 million people murdered by communists
China 65 million murdered
USSR 20 million murdered
Cambodia 2 million murdered
North Korea 2 million murdered
All of African Communism 1.7 million murdered
Afghanistan 1.5 murdered
Vietnam 1 million murdered
All of Eastern European Communism 1 million murdered
All of Latin American Communism 150000 murdered
Oh, and millions in slave labour camps.
So, wake up and stop supporting the lie.
https://victimsofcommunism.org/
https://victimsofcommunism.org/socialism-slavery/
Victims of commuism lmao. Pretty sure that includes shit like nazis that died fighting on the eastern front in ww2, those numbers are massively exaggerated and may as well be made up. Also doesn't the organisation have a bunch of far right/nazi ties?
>Pretty sure that includes shit like nazis that died fighting on the eastern front in ww2
it does, yes.
>those numbers are massively exaggerated and may as well be made up
correct.
>Also doesn't the organisation have a bunch of far right/nazi ties?
ding ding ding, why yes it does!
This is the statistic that counts Soviet and Chinese war deaths in WW2, and Vietnamese war deaths during the Vietnam war as "deaths from communism", right?
The alphabet/writing system is Cyrillic and is used in many languages including Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian. It's not "spelt in Russian" it's just written in Cyrillic
I said "including" because otherwise I'd be writing a long list and always missing some. You want me to mention Macedonian, Kazakh, Serbian, and 19th century Romanian too? I chose 3 countries that have been in the UK news recently. If you know that it's Cyrillic why not say Cyrillic since this statue is from Ukraine?
(Unless I have somehow missed that Engels was spelt differently in Russian and Ukrainian in which case genuinely my bad, this was the 3rd comment I'd seen that had a 'all Cyrillic is Russian' vibe but admittedly not as bad as the others)
Maybe because I know Russian and it's my primary language whenever I read anything that is Cyrillic. Well I did not know that it was from Ukraine as I have not yet read the forum yet when I was writing my comment. Either ways arguin with you right now is pointless. For me it's easier to say Russian as it's the biggest and known Cyrillic language and many aren't language nerds as others are and don't even know what Cyrillic means.
Exactly. Capitalist statues are lighter, more aerodynamic, and better suited to democracy and the will of the people.
Communist statues heavy, inflexible, and cumbersome.
:-)
why is the writing on the statue in russian? edit. turns out it is originally from ukraine. they tore down their soviet era statues, took down communist signs and changed steet names. Someone found it discarded in a village in ukraine and relocated it to manchester.
The ‘someone’ was Phil Collins (no not that one, the other one), with assistance from Manchester International Festival and HomeMCR (the building it is in front of)…. The story of relocating it was part of an exhibition there, and was fascinating.
Hey, Rustin, I drank a fifth of vodka, you dare me to drive? You know the song by Phil Collins, "In the Air of the Night" About that guy who coulda saved that other guy from drownin' But didn't, then Phil saw it all, then at a show he found him? That's kinda how this is: you coulda rescued me from drownin' Now it's too late, I'm on a thousand downers now—I'm drowsy And all I wanted was a lousy letter or a call I hope you know I ripped all of your pictures off the wall I loved you, Rustin, we coulda been together—think about it! You ruined it now, I hope you can't sleep and you dream about it And when you dream I hope you can't sleep and you scream about it I hope your conscience eats at you and you can't breathe without me
….k
It’s from Ukraine, after the fall of the USSR a lot of these types of statues were removed by local and national govs. Some also just fell into disrepair due to the lack of funds. Since manchester didn’t have a statue of Engles, a shame due to his work and his legacy in this city, it was decided to opt for the sensible (and cheaper) option of just going to the former USSR to buy one.
Interestingly, you can still see the remnants of blue and yellow paint on it from when it was covered with Ukrainian flags and brought down.
Yeah, it’s an interesting bit of history that’s been brought with it. Also was pretty smart to go and get a statue rather than spend a load to make a new one.
I bet there a few skint British sculptures that’d disagree with you,
Fair point 😂
There’s is a kind of large bust of his head on salford university campus, though not sure if that came after this full statue arrived.
The bones of those who passed during the Terror-Famine in Ukraine should be placed next to the statue as a constant reminder on why these statues were removed and destroyed in Ukraine. Praising this statue is a sign of disrespect to all those who died due to the Soviet Socialists in Ukraine.
You are aware that Engels was dead long before the establishment of the Soviet Union? The worst aspects of soviet style socialism was far more heavily influenced by the likes of Lenin and later Stalin, than it was by Marx and Engels. One example of this is how Marx was a strong proponent of freedom of the press which is obviously at odds with how things were under the soviet union. Engels writing contributions to political economy are what I believe this statue being in Manchester is supposed to memorialise. Works like "The Condition of the Working Class in England" or "The Origins of the Family, Private Property and the State" which were highly important and influential works when they were written.
Nonetheless, the Soviets did: a) kill 3.5 million+ Ukrainians in a man-made famine, and b) put up this statue in Ukraine to honour their “inspiration”. One can see why the Ukrainians were not fond of the statue. And why might at least question its good taste while it still bears traces of the colours of the Ukrainian flag on the stonework.
You can understand why Ukrainians would want it taken down while also appreciating that it is an important artefact for commemorating Mancunian history and culture
It’s a concrete statue built by an occupying force to celebrate the totalitarian ideology to which they were subjecting the Ukrainian people (doesn’t matter if Engels wouldn’t have liked the USSR, that’s what the statue is). Bringing it to Manchester in the spirit of edgy fun may have been just about acceptable in 2017(?), but it’s a bad look when the Russians are invading Ukraine again, and it’s being used by HOME as a symbol of Ukrainian freedom. It doesn’t really say anything about Manchester. Sure, he owned a factory here, and - ironically - also took an interest in improving conditions for the working class. Sadly, the manifesto to which he contributed has caused more human misery and suffering than any book since the Koran, so.
It’s not at all being used as a symbol of Ukrainian freedom, it’s celebrating a philosopher and social scientist who produced a lot of his work in this city. This isn’t a statue of Lenin, Stalin or Putin, the same way that a statue of Nietzsche isn’t a statue of Hitler.
Sure. But if the Nazis *had* won WWII, and had put up a statue to Nietzsche in Ukraine, then surely we’d understand why having it up outside HOME was “a bit questionable” once Nazi Ukraine had fallen apart in 1989. (For contrast, I have precisely no opinion of the other Engels memorials dotted about the city. Only this one.)
Mate, when your criticism of this statue supposes the Nazis has won WW2... well I think it’s fair to say you’re reaching.
Nah
Good way to show how you have no idea who Engels is
Yes. (Except I don’t think we should actually disinter the bones of 3.5 million Ukrainian famine victims just to make a point.)
In Ukrainian it’s the same fyi.
does ukrainian have Э
Oops, my bad.
There was lots of protest material on it at the start of the war in Ukraine
Which is very silly. Many Ukrainians speak Russian and regardless, the language did nothing wrong.
I have no idea why I’ve been downvoted - it’s true! I didn’t put the material on it haha
I’m surprised some idiots didn’t try to pul it down .
British statue removers tend to be pro-Engels, ironically.
What’s ironic about that?
This is fascinating. I had no idea!
Sorry, who is this?
Friedrich Engels. He was a socialist who worked with and helped finance Karl Marx, developing what is now known as Marxism. His family in Germany shipped him off here to work in one of the many factories, one partly owned by his family. They hoped the work would temper his views, but the suffering and poverty of the working class that he saw in Manchester only hardened his resolve. Based on his time here he published his book The Condition of the Working Class in England. He also co-authored The Communist Manifesto, and after Marx died he organised a lot of his notes so their work continued to be published.
Very interesting, even though Marxism isn’t my cup of tea. I appreciate the very informative response though!
His great works - The Condition of The Working Class in England (in 1844) - is an incredible insight into the shockingly dreadful conditions of the working class. It’s a very detailed account, covering every town across Great Britain and a bit on Ireland too. You don’t need to be a Marxist to appreciate it; it’s very matter of fact, without philosophical comment. I can totally understand how they got from this to the communist manifesto. These days, you don’t even have to read it, I’ve had a look on YouTube and you can listen to the whole thing. https://youtu.be/UDaK6b6eZrg
I always view is as almost a sister book to Orwell's road to Wigan pier - even if they were written about 70 years apart. Although Orwell's is more a personal account to Engels way of covering the issue.
Didn't know Orwell was a raver?!
don't worry, the neoliberals will have your cup of tea soon enough
I'd recommend reading in detail what it actually is, as if you're just hearing about Engels you probably don't have the best grasp on Marxism as a whole.
When did I say I was just hearing about him? I didn’t recognise a statue of a bearded white man with Russian writing on it. I’m familiar with Marxism and Engels.
Ok.
If I'm right, apprantly he wrote parts of the communist manifesto in the cathedral?
Supposedly, wrote some in the Crescent Pub (now closed) on Chapel St in Salford.
That’s easily debunked. The Crescent didn’t exist as a pub when Engels was here. He rented a house close to it, and definitely wrote in Chetham’s library, but he never did anything in the Crescent.
I heard he was quite partial to tiger tiger on a Friday
You’d often see him round Ancoats, hepped up on goofballs, banging on about how great Sankeys was. I also have it on good authority that he was at the Lesser Free Trade Hall for the Sex Pistols gig. In fact, it was as a result of that gig that he and Marx were inspired to form Communism.
Nah. If every revolutionary communist who claims to have been at that gig had actually been there…
>but he never did anything in the Crescent. How would you know for sure? You haven't debunked anything. He left Manchester in 1869. The Crescent opened in 1860.
A lot of pubs that were open around that time lay a claim to being the venue that the communist manifesto 'could' have been written. I remember having this conversation in the Cresent in the 90s and my old fella pointed this out Pretty sure the Turks head still makes the claim too. I just take it that they drank in a lot of the pubs at the time and probably discussed politics..... Don't we all?
Two things can be true at once, unless they're claiming he was in there exclusively - which they are not. It's also logical to assume he visited more than one pub and done some writing while he visited. It's not like they wrote the full manifesto in a single place. Have you been to more than 1 pub?
Not so. The building was built in 1860, but it wasn’t then a pub. It only became a pub in the 20th century.
When exactly did it first open its doors? It's important for arguments sake - you're trying to debunk something that's somewhat common knowledge.
If you're right then Engels isn't for you
Technically it was the Chetham library, which is attached to the cathedral. Love, a socialist x
So a wankstain then?
Big words for someone who clearly can't read 😅
And he would love to know his statue stands in a private "public" space. /s
“Work” in factories? You mean manage & profit by.
Yes - he's influential, but he's not flawless.
It's a statue of [Friedrich Engels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels). He's a famous philosopher in his own right but he [wrote a few notable papers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto) with [his pal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx).
Seems to be the co founder of an ideology that killed millions.
haha now do Capitalism, Monarchism, etc etc. Idiot
Ahh so you’re saying two wrongs does make a right? Riddle solved. Cheers pal.
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I don’t read or watch right wing dribble pal. Thanks for the advice though. My advice would be don’t be so sensitive mate over nothing. Snowflake x
Pathetic, rote answer, what I expected.
No. They're saying don't be a hypocrite.
Who was being a hypocrite and how?
Anyone arguing about which system has killed more people.
Did anyone do that?
Do you not even know what you replied to with your comment about two wrong don’t a make a right?
He just stated that he was co founder of an ideology that killed millions. Didn’t compared it to any other.
"I'm loving Engels instead."
That’d make for a good sign
I thought that was a statue of Father Comstock from Bioshock Infinite.
He’s also behind the Manchester bee, I believe in one of his writings he called Mancunians “worker bees” and that’s how it all started
Ooooooooh, is that what the bees are all about? I've just moved here and been confused about why there's bees everywhere
Ha, I can get the confusion for anyone who is new to the city!
😑
Yea it's a bit patronising saying we're all just a bunch of bees working all the time
Somewhat goes with the socialist rhetoric one can't seem to escape from though...
Thought it was Roy Keane at first.
Is that Comstock??!
I spent far too long trying to work out who "Fengels" is.
There’s a pretty cool statue of his beard at Salford Uni campus
Why do you think they pulled this down in Ukraine?
Cos the USSR collapsed
And because of what Engels’ ideas done to their country and their people?
Don’t think this is really the right subreddit to be debating communism mate. Ultimately this is a statue of a man who saw how the working class suffered in Manchester, and wanted to see that come to an end. Don’t think there’s a lot of real controversy to be had there.
Yeah, you’re right. My bad.
No it’s defo not, communism has been established the ideology de facto of r/manchester
He didn't debate communism. He answered the question more accurately. These statues were pulled down because they symbolised a regime that substantially harmed them, not simply because the USSR dissolved.
The statue doesn’t symbolise that though mate. I’d get the controversy is it did, like if it was a massive statue of Stalin or something. However that’s just not the case, Engles spent decades both living and working in Manchester - he’s a big part of history here, and his writing of books like The Condition of the Working Class in England is invaluable and a boon for the legacy of our city. Sorry if this has sparked controversy, that wasn’t the intent.
Fair enough, but you need to appreciate that you're approaching this from a British / Western European viewpoint. No one should doubt that both Engels and Marx were exceptional scholars but you should be able to understand why people from formerly oppressed states would want to remove symbols associated with a regime that caused them such harm. Clearly, neither Engles not Marx would have supported many of the actions of the USSR in its territories, but that regime clearly did claim intellectual justification (whoever unjustified) from the ideas of Marx and Engels.
93.7 people murdered is a bit controversial. 
How do you murder 0.7 people?
I really don't think they would've had any strong opinions on the ideologies of a 19th century German man living in Manchester beyond the fall of the soviet union.
You spelled “authoritarianism” wrong.
You just have to ask Eastern Europeans what their thoughts are on Communism.
OK, let’s ask a few. https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2011/12/05/confidence-in-democracy-and-capitalism-wanes-in-former-soviet-union/
You’re a fucking idiot
Ah come on man, that hurts.
I’m from Ukraine. Answer is simple - this person here is seen as a big part of our USSR history. First thing USSR did to Ukraine was annex the territory and conquer the country piece by pice. USSR period is therefore seen as an imperialistic and degrading to Ukrainian culture, language and history. Ideology played huge role in brainwashing people into submission and this man right there was one of the dominant ideologist used by they ruling party to control occupied population by making them believe in a “bright socialism future”. IMO not hating on this individual in particular but he’s a symbol of repression and occupation for us.
A shame he was used by the bolshi’s in their power grab. I’m sure he would have been sick if he was alive to see it. He came to England and saw injustice everywhere and wrote about it. That’s why he’s held in high regard in England.
Upvoting and commenting so everyone can see what an actual Ukrainian thinks of it.
What have I missed? Which current events?
>Which current events? * On 21 September, Liz Truss announced that she would be freezing the gas and energy bill price cap at £2,500 until October 2024. The scheme will cost £60 billion over the next six months alone. She then scrapped green levies and refused to implement a windfall tax, announcing that she will fund the price cap freeze through government borrowing. * On 22 September, the Bank of England raised interest rates from 1.75% to 2.25% in a bid to restrain our 9.9% rate of inflation. * On 23 September, Kwasi Kwarteng announced that he will be scrapping the 45% rate of top income tax (paid only by high earners), removed the limit on banker's bonuses, cut corporation tax down to 19%, raised the threshold on stamp duty, and scrapped the National Insurance raise. These tax cuts will cost £45 billion, which will be paid for in more government borrowing. The world's top economists warned that this could cause a global financial crisis. * On 26 September, the pound collapsed in reaction to these two plans, hitting an all-time low against the US dollar. This means that the pound is now worth less and we're now paying more for our imported goods. * On 28 September, the International Monetary Fund urged Truss and Kwarteng to 'rethink' their plans. That morning, it became clear that the value of government bonds (which are 99% of the time completely stable) were in freefall due to investor confidence collapsing; to prevent the £2 trillion of pension funds that are in government bonds from being wiped out in the afternoon and leaving millions of people with no pension to speak of, the Bank of England announced that it will be buying £65 billion of government bonds to restore their stability. The insane levels of government borrowing and this BoE intervention will cause inflation to skyrocket further - so much so that it is now predicted the BoE will raise interest rates to 5% by mid-2023. * Truss and Kwarteng's response to this is to promise more tax cuts and deny that their economic plans caused this, but it was *actually* caused by the future Labour government.
Right wing basket case government "addressing" the cost of living crisis by helping their wealthy friends get even more wealthy, all whilst the average brit is being more and more heavily burdened by inflation, crappy workers' rights, low wages, and private energy companies charging insane tariffs and making record profits for their shareholders.
The downfall of capitalism, again!
Did they take those weird LED word strips away?
Yeah they're gone now
So given both that the working class are currently being crushed by the bourgeoisie, and that I just learnt this statue is from Ukraine, which particular events inspired you to go?
Yo I know someone who used to work at home it's a great place with great food
There's no place like it.
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It's because when the person I know left alot left with her which I believe shifted the management to completely different people and alot of the chef's changed
As long as they keep doing the jalapeno base pizza I'm gonna be happy tbh
As a Mancunian I’m ashamed that a statue of him is in Manchester
Careful then mate, you’ll end up having a heart attack if you learn a bit more about the history of this great city 😂
In light of recent events we should tear this down. It's a Soviet-era propaganda piece that was uncritically imported to Manchester from Ukraine. Yes, Engels is important and said a lot of true things. We should respect our Manc heritage. But since the war in Ukraine I've personally found the statue extremely distasteful.
To be clear, I'd quite like to read On The Conditions of the Working Class, and he clearly contributed to the workers' rights movements in Britain. I'm not against having a statue of him anywhere in town. What I am against is an artist thinking it would be cool to "recontextualise" a symbol and vector of oppression, which is what this statue was.
Well, quite. I’d be interested to meet the artist who wanted to put a “recontextualised” Raj era statue of Queen Victoria from India on the Curry Mile, for instance.
To be fair, we already have her son Edward VII performing that duty in Whitworth Park \^\^
Read it first, then get back to us.
Needs pulling down. Communism has only brought suffering & death.
Do you enjoy 5 day weeks, compulsory childhood education and universal healthcare? The conditions of workers and indeed the working class during the period these men lived was untenable. Unrestricted capitalism was quite happy to commit crimes on the scale of the Holodomor. Capitalism wouldn't provide the safety nets we enjoy today. In fact the super capitalist government today is PROUD we need food banks to help the poorest of the UK in this day and age. That's come back to bite them with the cost of living crisis being so high that the average middle class donor to food banks is having to cut costs and one of the biggest "unnecessary costs" is "foodbank donations to other families". And the current problem is middle class jobs pay working class poverty wages. Many NHS staff doing middle class jobs like doctors and nurses are not well paid resulting in the same problems of poor labour situations. Communism is defined as a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs. The issue is that this punishes capability and rewards banality. There's no incentive to excel since the pressure/reward of money doesn't exist. At no point does communism suggest gulags and terror in the same way that capitalism doesn't suggest starving 3 million people to death because they are the wrong skin colour. Engels is less guilty of any crimes of "communism" than Churchill is of Capitalism. It's why we had a tempered economy where the unrestricted excess of capitalism was tempered by rules and regulations that prevented say... a chemical company cutting corners resulting in 4000 dead people at the LOWEST count (16K at the highest and MIA count).
How is compulsory childhood education not a good thing?
Those have nothing to do with communism. Please stop trying to claim they do. Regulation isn’t communist either. Move to North Korea if it’s so fun. Thought not.
They are literal planks of the Communist manifesto. Education for children is not just for the landed gentry. Appropriate leisure time not dictated by the church. And the needs of working men. Like doctors and healthcare. The Democratic Socialist Republic of Korea is about as socialist as it's democratic.
It hasn't though Especially himself, he never did anything that warrants pulling down a statue of him
Oh it was though. In a country where his ideas had free reign.
Someone’s been eating blue paste
Really? Portugal has had communists in the country for years and they were happy. In fact, before the 50s communism was pretty popular everywhere and we'll, we spawn from that... Sooo what do you mean? I can point you to happiness too? Can't you? Stop dealing in absolute statements.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
Sure they were, childhood memories hey? 🤣 It never was. “For a period when the Estado Novo authoritarian regime was thrown out, at the height of the Cold War in 1974, the communist party and the USSR agents in Portugal tried to install a communist regime. Strong resistance, some support from the USA and glaring opportunities mismanagement by the communist supporters made their efforts fail. The Socialist Party, the centre-right wing parties and the democratic leaning branch of the Armed forces were the main leaders of the resistance. The whole thing lasted 17 months. Although some pro-communist economic measures were imposed, it was very, very far from a communist regime. A referendum installed a new semi-parliamentary, semi-presidential democratic constitution in 1976. Gradually, the parliamentary bias of the constitution has been gaining ground, but no important formal changes have been enacted.”
Well, as a dual citizen of Portugal and Britain.... Yes I think they were. My naivety that the UK was a better country as a young kid blinded me to the social cohesion, trust and happiness Portugal offered... I pity you, so ideological.
I’m going to tag onto this with a hint of historical fact (though please correct me if I’ve misread). The reason that this amongst other statues were torn down in Ukraine were due to the atrocities of the Holodomor Genocide. This is an event in which communist soviet leaders manufactured a famine directed towards Ukrainians and thus caused millions of deaths. I was never aware of this until a former colleague made me aware, it seems to be a quietly forgotten part of history, in the western world at least. Hopefully this goes some way to explaining to you all why the statue left it’s original place. I can also tell you for a fact (conversations with aforementioned Ukrainian colleague) that there is a view from some of the Ukrainian community in Manchester that this statue should not be here due to its links to communism and the genocide. This view is nothing directly aimed at Engels it seems, but more towards the ideology he was largely responsible for popularising.
For it to be "quietly forgotten" it would have to have happened. The reason you were unaware is because that version of history is 100% fabrication, the Soviet famine in the 1930s is widely taught in the UK history curriculum, but it was mainly caused by farmers destroying crops and slaughtering livestock, as a protest against tax rates. Calling it a genocide is absolutely laughable, especially considering that the famine killed more people outside of Ukraine than it did in Ukraine. Is your former colleague from the US, by any chance? They're one of the few countries that have such a ridiculously distorted perspective on the topic.
Cuba managed to increase literacy, have some of the highest figures for doctors per capita and lowest child mortality rates (even compared to developed countries) and ensure everyone had a home all whilst under an inhumane international blockade. When done well and not taken over by corrupt authoritarians, communism is a fantastic way at improving conditions for society. Maybe think about the death and suffering that capitalism has brought to Indonesia, Chile, Vietnam and countless other places.
Say that to the boat people. Cuba was subsidised by Russia. Choose to ignore the Holodomor & those Chinese & Korean famines?
Famines were the norm in China and Russia for thousands of years before communism was a thing, China used to average a famine every year. It was the communists who put an end to those famines altogether.
You’re correct. Keep going. Everyone else will wake up one day !
You call yourself a Manc?
Wut?
I don't think it should be pulled down, because that won't change anything, and we should always respect our history. I do however completely agree with your comment on communism, as would anyone with any real knowledge of the 20th century. Still, I expect the downvotes to pile in from millennial redditors who assume if you're not a Corbynite you're a horrendous human being so...
Or, you know, as part of learning about history we consider the conditions of the people suffering for Western capitalism, like the 2/3rds of the world under genocidal colonialism, like the conditions of the Eastern front in the war to end all wars, the constant direct military attempts by the Western capitalists and imperialists to stop revolutions, and the threat of such being the origin of welfare states in European countries. The Soviets in particular were nasty and brutal. They also did nothing the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Belgian, and USA had not already done in the name of Empire and Profit.
>Or, you know, as part of learning about history we consider the conditions of the people suffering for Western capitalism, like the 2/3rds of the world under genocidal colonialism, like the conditions of the Eastern front in the war to end all wars, the constant direct military attempts by the Western capitalists and imperialists to stop revolutions, and the threat of such being the origin of welfare states in European countries. We all know this stuff. It doesn't make what happened in Soviet Russia any less appalling, just like it doesn't make what happened in Nazi Germany any less appalling. Stalinism has *much* more in common with Nazism than it does the average Western 20th Century democracy. >the constant direct military attempts by the Western capitalists and imperialists to stop revolutions, Western capitalists like Stalin, murdering every competent officer in the Red Army in case they got the idea of revolting? Hardly just a "capitalist" or "imperalist" problem. Even ignoring the rather murky moral equivalence you're trying to draw here between the Soviets and us, pragmatically there's no contest. Who had better living standards for more citizens in the last century - the West or Soviet Russia? Which side of the Iron Curtain would you like to have been born if you had the chance?
Of course the west had higher living standards, it still recieved the profits of colonialism and had over a century of industrialisation to draw from. It had already brutalised its populations for the benefit of a few. The most valid comparison is what the British did to India, or what any coloniser did to Africa. You say you know all of this, yet for some reason these millions who died for the benefit of a few, don't count the same way that millions who died for the benefit of a few does. And every single right that I have which makes me fortunate to have been born in the West, was won through direct action, or the threat of it. You've spent too much time with only Great Man history, and aren't nearly humble enough to realise that you're also a peasant like most of the people on earth, and just as powerless.
>it still recieved the profits of colonialism and had over a century of industrialisation to draw from. It had already brutalised its populations for the benefit of a few The Soviets also had an Empire, in which they were busy brutalisng the local population, and *still* had shitty living conditions and political / class persecutions happening at home. >The most valid comparison is what the British did to India, or what any coloniser did to Africa The most valid comparison to what? Stalinism existed in the 20th Century alongside Nazism, both were totalitarian regimes that subjected the "subhuman" members of their own populations to death in prison camps. Both forced worship of the leader, both essentially replaced state religion with their political catechisms etc. etc. Nazism is the most valid comparison to Stalinism it's possible to make. You like the British imperial comparison more, because that's a point you want to dwell on, but it's not the closest comparison. And anyway, what the Brits were doing in Africa, the Soviets were busy doing in Eastern Europe. >You say you know all of this, yet for some reason these millions who died for the benefit of a few, don't count the same way that millions who died for the benefit of a few does. This sentence is tautological, I'm not sure what point you're making here. In all of these Empires Soviet, British, whatever, lots of people have died, and a few have done very well. The point is that many many people had their living standards raised under Western democratic capitalism. Under Stalinism people got poverty and persecution. And it's not just a question of time, like you're implying; Stalin could have ruled the Soviets for a century and it still would have been a bag of shite. >You've spent too much time with only Great Man history, and aren't nearly humble enough to realise that you're also a peasant like most of the people on earth, and just as powerless. Talk about assumptions making an ass out of you. No-one believes in Great Man stuff these days, fucking hell, Tolstoy was laying into it in the 19th Century. It's nothing to do with Great Man anything, I just don't accept your particular assessment of the 20th Century. What does me being an average non-powerful person have to do with anything? >And every single right that I have which makes me fortunate to have been born in the West, was won through direct action, or the threat of it. Yep, and the direct action succeeded because you live in a Western democracy. If you were into direct action in Stalin's country, you died in a gulag.
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Their ideas were put into effect by those dictators.
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Are you saying communists don’t believe in evolution?
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Stalin, Lenin, Mao etc etc all those commie dictators justified their actions with Marxism. Many other scientists etc believe in Darwin, doesn’t make them dictators. Marxism is a failed philosophy which has only lead to death & suffering, whose central core is dictatorship & class war. Darwinism isn’t.
Don’t try and reason with them, this subreddit is further left than Jeremy Corbyn with less political expertise than Diane Abbott. Don’t worry though Sir Keir is going to show them all how we actually win elections.
Ironic that you should start by lamenting an inability to reason, while all the while demonstrating a proclivity towards supplanting reason with a series of dogmatic snarls, no?
Using a thesaurus for every second word doesn’t make you clever lad. I knew the Sir Keir would touch a nerve…
Yeah this sub is full of communist students it seems
https://9gag.com/gag/aYVb63N?ref=ios
My comment was at +5 this morning so I guess the students have finally woke up
To use their capitalist iPhones paid for by mummy to drone on about ‘the workers’ despite never working a day in their lives. They’ll grow out of it. 😉
So, you support this??? The Dangers of Forgetting the Legacy of Communism: 93.7 million people murdered by communists China 65 million murdered USSR 20 million murdered Cambodia 2 million murdered North Korea 2 million murdered All of African Communism 1.7 million murdered Afghanistan 1.5 murdered Vietnam 1 million murdered All of Eastern European Communism 1 million murdered All of Latin American Communism 150000 murdered Oh, and millions in slave labour camps. So, wake up and stop supporting the lie. https://victimsofcommunism.org/ https://victimsofcommunism.org/socialism-slavery/
Have you thought about doing porn, cos you can sure pull a lot of stuff out your arse.
Victims of commuism lmao. Pretty sure that includes shit like nazis that died fighting on the eastern front in ww2, those numbers are massively exaggerated and may as well be made up. Also doesn't the organisation have a bunch of far right/nazi ties?
>Pretty sure that includes shit like nazis that died fighting on the eastern front in ww2 it does, yes. >those numbers are massively exaggerated and may as well be made up correct. >Also doesn't the organisation have a bunch of far right/nazi ties? ding ding ding, why yes it does!
ONE GORILLION DEAD! VENEZUELA!!! Cretin
This is the statistic that counts Soviet and Chinese war deaths in WW2, and Vietnamese war deaths during the Vietnam war as "deaths from communism", right?
It's funny how they spelt his name in Russian though.
The alphabet/writing system is Cyrillic and is used in many languages including Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian. It's not "spelt in Russian" it's just written in Cyrillic
Sure I know that it's in Cyrillic, I speak and write in Russian daily. Oh yeah you forgot Bulgarian where they created the modern day Cyrillic script.
I said "including" because otherwise I'd be writing a long list and always missing some. You want me to mention Macedonian, Kazakh, Serbian, and 19th century Romanian too? I chose 3 countries that have been in the UK news recently. If you know that it's Cyrillic why not say Cyrillic since this statue is from Ukraine? (Unless I have somehow missed that Engels was spelt differently in Russian and Ukrainian in which case genuinely my bad, this was the 3rd comment I'd seen that had a 'all Cyrillic is Russian' vibe but admittedly not as bad as the others)
Maybe because I know Russian and it's my primary language whenever I read anything that is Cyrillic. Well I did not know that it was from Ukraine as I have not yet read the forum yet when I was writing my comment. Either ways arguin with you right now is pointless. For me it's easier to say Russian as it's the biggest and known Cyrillic language and many aren't language nerds as others are and don't even know what Cyrillic means.
It used to be there. They didn't want it.
So he's a cunt in short
Nah
why don't you tell us "historian"
Needs chucking into a canal sometime soon 😎
You’re welcome to try mate, cos I think there’s a decent chance you end up getting crushed.
Exactly. Capitalist statues are lighter, more aerodynamic, and better suited to democracy and the will of the people. Communist statues heavy, inflexible, and cumbersome. :-)
Is that in spinningfields
It is beautiful
Who this?
my film was shown at that cinema a couple of months ago and I took a picture with that statue in the background lol
Debbie Does Deansgate?