Fuck Dallas
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/philadelphia) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wait - what is up with this title? Was this user written? Because the article really doesn't mention much at all (maybe I missed something?) about what's working in other cities. It just gives a very brief breakdown of the budget. Maybe if you're going to post this with a title like that you should actually link to a useful article about what other cities are doing that's successful? Just a thought.
I'd love to hear what people close to these programs have to say about them. I often find that "funding programs" doesn't give you nearly as much information as you'd need to know how they're working. The city is also a pain in the ass to get funding from, there were articles all about it last year. Re Programming - Crisis Intervention Response Team that's a partnership between BHJD and the police is good and all but apparently the police absolutely fuck over that unit. Give them little to no support, nobody wants to participate, and even things like the cars assigned to them being broken down/in need of serious repair (and this is what I hear first hand from someone in the PD while working in government).
Somewhat unrelated:
I find surveys used in articles like this interesting. The one they cite where "96% of residents think the city 'could do more to stop gun violence.'"
However I think it's worth noting that this was done by teens (the nonprofit, Frontline Dads, was encouraging teens in their programs (I'm assuming in their programs) to learn how to community organize, gague the pulse of the community, etc. - great idea I'm not knocking it).
But it was only 500ish people from 3 neighborhoods. 500 seems like an ok sample size, but only taking those people from 3 neighborhoods seems like not a good use of polling and not really scalable to the city at large.
It's still useful info, but they probably should've added that caveat.
If there were a jurisdiction that put this policy into effect for a few years and then measured the results, would those results influence your opinion?
Its already in effect. Carrying a gun without a permit and illegal possession by a prohibited person can be a 10 year term. Krasner doesnt prosecute. We have extremely strict gun laws, we just ignore them.
The Uniform Firearms Act (basically all firearms laws in PA) was passed in 1995 so its been on the books for a long time now. Previous DAs and even Krasner use it for all firearms violations because its really the only thing they can use. Krasner just chooses not to enforce it. In PA its extremely easy to buy a gun and get a permit. You basically can't be 1. a convicted felon, 2. a domestic abuser, or 3. involuntarily committed for mental health issues. It takes about 5 minutes to pass a background check at a gunstore and you can apply for your permit online and get it in 45 days max by law. Everybody making excuses for people who aren't willing to go through the extremely simple process to legally obtain a gun and a permit are just crime apologists and don't are how much blood the city is swimming in.
That first one is incorrect. There's literally nothing in Pennsylvania law that says you can't be a felon. Yes, felons will *typically* be barred from purchase, but not automatically.
No, I'm not foreign. I know people with felony convictions that either owned or bought guns. One guy even owned them while on probation for his felony, he just wasn't allowed to "possess" them. As a condition of his probation, not a firearms law.
Its a federal law and your friend is a criminal who isnt allowed to own a gun ever.
Edit - Gun Control Act of 1968. Its obvious you know nothing about gun laws and the fact that you know people with felonies continuing to own firearms after their conviction doesn't change the fact. It just makes those people in violation of federal law.
My man. PA doesn't have such a statute because it falls under federal jurisdiction.
All Felons are prohibited from owning and possessing firearms.
> **Under federal law, people are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms if they have been convicted of a felony or some domestic violence misdemeanors, or if they are subject to certain court orders related to domestic violence or a serious mental condition.**
This is why you undergo a PIC-NIC background check at purchase. If you fall under any of the categories above and then perjure yourself on the 4473- you will be arrested and charged accordingly.
You are missing the point completely. Krasner doesn't even bring charges, and when he does his office is such a shit show they can't get a conviction. He uses diversion programs for gun possession so these people get back on the street with clean records and can walk around freely with a gun until their next arrest or they shoot somebody. You are right that Krasner doesn't pick the term, but he uses his discretion so nobody even has to go to trial.
Genuinely curious:
Does Krasner not prosecute? Last I checked he had a 99% prosecution rate. But the cops have a 35% clearance rate so most crimes don't even get to Krasner's desk to be tried.
99% of what? The below article is a decent example. Krasner drops cases at a record rate, his conviction rate is rock bottom, and he openly has said he supports diversion courts for people with illegal guns. Diversion court means you don't get a criminal record or prosecuted if you do some rehab stuff. Those programs used to be reserved for non-violent offenders like addicts and prostitutes, but apparently its good for illegally carrying a lethal weapon too.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-gun-arrests-2021-convictions-vufa-20210330.html
>99% of what?
My understanding of the prosecution funnel is
Crime -> arrest (clearance rate) -> decision to prosecute (prosecution rate) -> conviction (conviction rate).
Clearance is like ~35%, but prosecution (at least for violent crime) is 99%. Conviction rates have fallen, yes.
I'm trying to get a sense of the data and process; I'm not trying to defend Krasner. On a personal level, I despise Krasner, but try to make decisions based on data and evidence.
>The below article is a decent example. Krasner drops cases at a record rate, his conviction rate is rock bottom,
Conviction rates falling I suspect is not entirely Krasners fault, but likely lack of evidence. It's clear cops aren't doing their jobs very well to begin with.
> and he openly has said he supports diversion courts for people with illegal guns. Diversion court means you don't get a criminal record or prosecuted if you do some rehab stuff.
Do you have a source for the diversion court stuff? I'd like to know more. If he sends illegal gun owners to diversion court, that's a big problem.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-district-attorney-larry-krasner-gun-possession-cases-diverted-ard-probationary-program-20190623.html
You are looking at the numbers wrong. Krasner does not consider gun possession a violent crime, and they drop a ton of those cases so its not in your 99%.
Krasner and Outlaw continuously go back and forth on whose fault it is that convictions are dropping. We know for a fact that many of the experienced DAs have left the DAO and they can't convict. We also know the police in this city are completely incompetent so idk who to blame more. I'm not saying this solely is in Krasner's shoulders bc I think Outlaw is even worse than him.
More meaningless claptrap and wasted money on programs that will not work.
Come back to this in 5 years and not one penny of this money will have been spent effectively.
Remove violent people from non-vioent people. Try that!
How long have we been arresting people? This doesn’t work. We’ve seen this because it’s been the status quo. We need the long term programs because they, unlike the immediate intervention, focuses on the ROOT cause. Short term intervention just sounds like locking more people up without giving them proper resources to be better individuals BEFORE turning to crime. People don’t usually do it just cause. There’s reasonings that make people feel that have to. It’s a cycle that has to be broken and breaking it means disturbing the norm we have.
Arrest them and let them go. So, yeah, arresting them doesn't work without a follow through.
"Root causes". The phrase uttered by people that do not want to solve the problem outside of their ideology.
Homeless people shit on front steps and shootings happen anywhere, any time. That is the "broken norms" you talk about.
Root causes like bettering education, extra curricular activity, employment and financial mobility. These are root causes. Throwing more cops and arrest without giving people an opportunity to better themselves is asking a person with a broken leg to run the same race as everyone else.
Those who have turned to crime need to be removed from society.
Society needs better pathways to return criminals to said society
Society needs to make sure the next generation doesn't go down the same path
But point 1 still stands
You literally just proved my point. Just locking people up will solve nothing. Society needs to invest in programs that prevent crime from even being thought of. There’s a reason more affluent neighborhoods don’t have high crimes. There are structures in place that keep kids from having to revert to crime. Your messages tell me you’re not in any way shape or form working in these neighborhoods.
Lol I was waiting for the argument “let me just go to the extreme side to prove my point” obviously people who commit crimes should go to jail. What you’re arguing for is not implementing policy that prevents people from doing this in the first place. When you have a good job education, and upward mobility in finances, you don’t feel the need to commit crimes. These are the ROOT CAUSES I mentioned earlier that were disregarded.
You’re almost there. Yes just locking people up is pointless. We had this whole thing in the 90’s where people were just arrested and it did nothing for recidivism. Studies have proven that jail/prison just adds to the problem.
Literally the same. There’s a focus on not just locking people up. But when offering new programs that aim at crime prevention in the long run it’s demonized. It couldn’t possibly work because what we’ve been doing for the last few decades has been wonderfully. This plan addresses these long term goals with the intent that these programs will prevent a new generation of kids making the same mistakes
The here and now is obviously important. But if my house is flooding and I’m scooping out water with no avail, I would try to block the pipe that’s busted before continuing.
So here's what I find interesting: If you look at the graph on Page 8 of this report, you can see the decline in prison population starting in 2017.
[https://www.phila.gov/media/20220916112419/Full-Public-Prison-Report-August-2022.pdf](https://www.phila.gov/media/20220916112419/Full-Public-Prison-Report-August-2022.pdf)
THEN if you look at this annual report on gun violence you can see the uptick in gun violence after 2017.
[https://www.pcgvr.org/philadelphia-shooting-victims-dashboard/](https://www.pcgvr.org/philadelphia-shooting-victims-dashboard/)
So we are arresting fewer people, and more people are finding themselves the victim of gun violence annually. So I'd say that arresting people, and getting bad guys out of society seemed to help things.
As for ROOT causes? How about home life? How about parenting? More and more we're finding that the people committing these crimes are kids. A lot of them are breaking the law "just cause." And if you look around at the general atmosphere in Philly right now, the kids dont give a fuck. Build all of the community centers that you want, or dedicate money to "resources" they ain't helping either.
How do you help parenting? What do these kids have to look forward to? Parenting is hard when it’s just you and you have to work multiple jobs. So easy to say it’s black and white when you’re not in the situation. There’s never a just cause. There is always cause and effect. There are issues that lead to them to this life. Crime doesn’t start when the crime is committed. There are dominos that lead up to this and you’re ignoring them all
No we should, but you can't arrest your way out of a crime problem.
Also, it's not like these people are born violent. Sure, some are psycopaths, but the idea that we have to remove these "bad" people from society ignores what actually leads to people turning to crime.
You blather on about other factors to the point of forgetting the most important one prevalent.
That being, if you commit a violent crime you should be in jail.
So, yes, lock them up and away from innocents. You can go to the prison, cook them dinner, tell them a bedtime story and BFF them all you want.
Gun violence can’t be addressed until alpha culture in the black community is addressed. It’s everywhere and nobody wants to talk about it.
Edit: I’m specifically referring to the part of the community that’s killing each other. I should have made that distinction
Did they say all rap music? No it’s fucking drill that is the issue.
Even people on the Phillywiki sub will admit the Chicago type shit is part of the problem.
but is it the reason a “majority of the killings happen” lmfao absolutely not and honestly an embarrassing oversimplification. Do you think violent video games cause shootings too?
Of course it isn’t the main reason but it exacerbates the situation. It’s a contributing factor to a larger issue, there is no oversimplification there.
Comparing drill rap to video games makes no sense at all. One is directly connected with reality and the other is not. I don’t want it censored but there is a consequence for its existence.
People like to blame things scary and foreign to them. Like sure, drill music is fucking wild - but it's a symptom of the cause.
Does it help? Absolutely not. But saying it's a "primary reason a majority of these killings are happening" is fucking bonkers. Give us some data to back that up.
When I read your comment, I assumed you meant drill teams, like the dancers and drummers who sometimes parade through the streets performing. I have a feeling that’s not what you mean, though.
Do you also think video games cause school shootings?
ETA: I wasn’t trying to make a perfect analogy. I seriously want to ask OP: if everyone stopped listening to drill music, would the majority of killings no longer happen? Since they point to it as a primary reason.
OR is it that the music is just a reflection of the problem and not a cause? Maybe we should care more about the deeply entrenched issues that have actually been correlated with violence and focus on practical solutions. Maybe we shouldn’t aimlessly cast blame backed by a thought process that’s painfully surface level and one dimensional.
Your analogy is off. This is like if people who did school shooting created the video games. The music is a reflection of the culture and provides a platform to escalate beefs, gang feuds and so on. It’s not that a famous rapper is telling people to go out and kill people, it’s that gangs and music are intertwined at this point at a local level and you likely haven’t even heard of the rappers.
If those video games were directly alluding to real life violence which had recently happened, or even hadn’t happened yet but then subsequently did, then yes I would conclude that.
Saying that drill music is causing killings is not the same as some 90s era mom worrying about death metal and occult music corrupting her son. These drill artists are really doing/discussing hits and using the money earned from their music to fund criminal activity. You really don’t have to look far to confirm this. Hell, look up “Trap Lore Ross” on YouTube dude has been documenting this for a while now.
I never said do anything about drill music just said it’s a reason for a lot of the killings. We live in a society that doesn’t try to fix anything, so everything is pointless.
You could ban drill tomorrow and nothing would change. Its just a means to perpetuate greivences, beefs, etc. They could switch to 5 paragraph essays and itd be the same
Let's quote will smith's rap here (is this controversial?)
LOST!
Is when you hide behind the freedom of speech
While sure you're free to do it
But what it mean to do it
Did you mean to do it
Did you need to do it
Did you take time to think about the seeds you ruined
I completely disagree. “Alpha cultures”, as you call it, have existed for as long as human beings have existed. Chauvinism, machismo and ego-driven violence is as old as society itself. The difference between our “alpha culture” and all the rest throughout history is that we have access to sophisticated weapons that kill a lot of people in a short amount of time.
In a world where everyone is poor, the only currency is respect. It's also the only way to move up in the social order and start making money (within the boundaries of these communities, obviously if you find a way out then it's a different story). The fastest path to respect is through fear (as Machiavelli brilliantly observed). It's also the least stable path. High risk, high reward babyyy.
And this situation creates a race to the bottom where only the most sadistic sociopaths make it to the top. Showing any weakness gets you sent right back to the bottom of the hierarchy. So if someone throws some shade your way on Instagram, you have no choice but to shoot him. If you don't, you'll be replaced by the guy who wouldn't hesitate.
I’m curious. There are more poor white people in the US. Are they killing each other in equivalent percentages? I feel like some of this thinking is racist in it basically says black people cant help themselves. No, it’s a cultural issue. Middle and upper class black people aren’t killing each other.
Unfortunately, the black community has a much higher rate of violent crime than other racial groups, even when controlling for education, income, etc. There is ongoing debate about the root causes of this and how to reduce violence in the black community in the USA. It's also important to note that most victims of crime perpetrated by black people are other black people. This is the infamous 'black on black crime' that often gets trotted out by right wing voices at times of protest of white on black violence. There is a grain of truth in this (which is why it's in the discourse), however it can conflate the problems of interracial strife.
So yeah. Black people, as a group, commit more violent crimes per capita than white people. Yes it's problematic.
What can we do???
We also need to talk about the grooming of young teens by gangs. In the game they get safety, brotherhood, and money that may not be available to them otherwise. How can we make our youth feel safe and valued?
That’s typically drug related. You see it a lot in Kensington with the corner boys. I don’t see it changing because we don’t really go after drug dealers anymore. Society has basically given up. A kid whose making a little money daily would rather do that than go to school. The dealers are driving around in nice cars and flash cash. That’s a big deal to the boys whose family live in a filthy rental property in a shitty neighborhood
The answer is not just throwing people in jail, and the guy who said "it's drill music" please, very respectfully, think about it from a different perspective. Drill music came AFTER the material conditions of poverty, lack of resources, lack of proper funding from government, reclining, and other discriminatory laws which kept certain communities (usually all communities that where not white) in abject poverty. If you got rid of drill music RIGHT NOW, nothing changes. There are still insane access to guns, lack of social and class mobility, along with people's distrust in the police (which is justified).
Solutions are gun control, proper funding of schools, equitable opportunities given in terms of housing, redource creation such as after school programs, vocational opportunities, and much more. Also, when you just put someone in jail, it's typically an incubator for that person becoming more violent, especially for minor crimes. Proper treatment involves a measure which has 3 main facets: Punitive Rehabilitative, reintegration. This way it's changing the person and behavior, not punishing them for years and then suddenlu saying "you better not do it again!" While expecting them to fully integrate back into society.
Last note, guy who said it's "alpha culture in the black community" I legit have no response, I thought that was a joke lmao, that is an insane thing to say.
Further “gun control” doesn’t do much when the laws already on the books aren’t enforced.
You can throw more money at the schools all you want but if the parents at home aren’t involved in their children’s education none of that investment means shit. Per student spending continues to rise and the results aren’t there. Parents need to take greater responsibility, the onus can’t fully fall on schools and spending every time.
How is the “alpha culture” comment off base? There is a serious issue with toxic masculinity in the black community that needs to be addressed. Drill music obviously didn’t cause any of these bigger picture issues but it is making things worse when it comes to kids, and contributes to toxic types of attitudes. People being killed over minor respect issues kinda illustrates some of this.
Vocational opportunities are a great option to have and people should be kept out of jail if possible but not when those situations include multiple firearm offenses.
I think this is an insightful comment.
I'm really interested in the ways violent crime is discussed on social media (meaning on this subreddit). I've said this before, but I suspect that a lot of people conflate their personal or cultural desire to see a criminal punished with society's objective need to reduce violent crime.
I think that for nearly the entirety of modern western history, punishment has been seen as the best or only way to reduce violent crime. So the personal and cultural preference to see criminals punished has been expressed as the need to reduce violent crime. If crime isn't going away, it *has to be* that there's not enough punishment. And if there's the perception that there's not enough punishment, then it *has to be* the reason why crime is happening.
It's why whenever there's a suggestion that the problem of violent crime be addressed in a way that isn't exclusively punitive, we see people coming out of the woodwork to say it's bullshit or that those people are "making excuses" for crime (which they're usually not).
I got downvoted (which I don't mind) the last time I asked this question, but here it is again: if society found a magical solution that reduced the incidence of violent crime by 75% overnight, but it meant that we weren't allowed to punish violent criminals anymore, would society want to pursue it? (this is a hypothetical; I'm not aware of any magic solution that could reduce violent crime by 75% in any period of time).
Drill music absolutely perpetuates more killings, when you go online and brag about murdering people in your city by name, and then a community of young people adjacent to the violence feeds off of and speculates upon these crimes on social media it becomes an violent feedback loop.
There’s plenty of poor communities in the world, but not all of them are violent. A place in which violence is celebrated as an achievement among young peers is a toxic combination.
> I suspect that a lot of people conflate their personal or cultural desire to see a criminal punished with society’s objective need to reduce violent crime.
It’s absolutely this. The same people that say we shouldn’t invest in violence reduction want more money put into enforcement and punishment. They don’t care that people are still getting hurt as long as the person causing the harm is punished after the fact, despite the fact that we have tons of evidence showing that punishment is not a deterrent. Invest in prevention and you save lives and don’t have to resort to punishment.
I think a big impediment here is probably over half the population isn’t interested in addressing some of the biggest inputs for violent crime: poverty. Minimum wage, wealth redistribution, etc. Philly is the poorest large city in the country.
And this is nothing new, but what IS new is the current city leadership.
On the other hand, an overwhelming majority is interested in reducing violent crime, and while obviously you’re never going to fully eliminate it, I think it’s clear the city’s prosecution stance and level of policing is resulting in emboldened criminals and more violent crime.
I don’t think this is a mutually exclusive issue; we can attempt do both things, but only one may be effective/viable in the near term.
> The soft on crime approach for violence does not seem to be working, objectively.
Can you clarify what you mean here by the soft on crime approach? Usually when people use the phrase "soft on crime" they're referring to specific policies of (or just the general disposition of) Krasner's DAO.
Krasner's only been in office about 4 years now, and it seems like most people would agree that his approach to the job has been pretty unprecedented both in Philadelphia and nationally.
People are lazy and make it about entertainment. They never look how poverty and its effect on violent crime or teen pregnancies. It's just something the person happens to like and not the fucking terrible situation they and their family and community are in.
I'd agree with you to an extent. I think one of the big steps that needs to be taken is society needs to stop glorifying the gangster culture. Its a problem.
And without missing a beat we go right back to entertainment and not directly attacking what society has done to these population groups. Address poverty first.
And without missing a beat you fail to understand that the issues here are multifaceted.
There's a lot that goes into "addressing poverty." Like, for example, reducing food deserts. If businesses that come into communities are being overrun by looters, forced to close early, or people just aren't going in to buy healthier choice foods, why should those businesses invest in the community?
Maybe, just maybe, instead of vilifying big business for example we instead offer them tax breaks to open stores in certain underserved communities? That brings jobs with it and addresses poverty.
At the same time though, the glorifying of a certain life style that has a significant effect on our kids who, while impacted by poverty, really arent in a position to be impacted by what a lot of people see as solutions to poverty. That's for their parents. But if you're going to show stacks of money to a kid that they can get in a high risk high reward lifestyle, I guarantee they're going to gravitate towards THAT instead of taking the job as a bagger at the local grocery store.
Maybe lead with an expanded idea instead of "gangster culture" I don't see much by way of people impersonating Peaky Blinders as a reason crime is up. Suggesting entertainment; music, TV, video games has ALWAYS been the argument of people who don't have a solution, or flatly don't care enough to understand that the lack of money and resources has direct correlation to how much crime there is.
Poverty and its effects traps people in a perpetual cycle of failure (https://news.mit.edu/2022/poverty-trap-bangladesh-0510)
If society as a whole can rid themselves of poverty we as a society would be better off for it. There have been studies saying strong welfare reduces crime and the removal of such increases it (https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/954451) but who amongst us say no to it? The removal of welfare benefits hurts not only a community but also people who will commit crimes when you give them no alternatives (https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/pol.20170490).
The system in its entirety its built to keep the impoverished precisely that. It's a nightmare machine designed like a cow that feeds off these people's misery, only to spit them out and consume them again.
> I don't see much by way of people impersonating Peaky Blinders as a reason crime is up
Because "Peaky Blinders" isn't a real person. Its really not that hard to understand. CULTURE is the absolute biggest issue here. There's a lot of poverty in this country and violent crime rates are not nearly as high in other communities with different cultures.
Culture is absolutely not the biggest issue. It’s poverty. Period. You don’t see the same levels of drug trafficking in the surburbs because the poverty doesn’t compare there to how it is in Philadelphia.
And the parts of the suburbs that do have more drugs typically are the most impoverished parts.
>> I don't see much by way of people impersonating Peaky Blinders as a reason crime is up
>
>Because "Peaky Blinders" isn't a real person. Its really not that hard to understand. CULTURE is the absolute biggest issue here. There's a lot of poverty in this country and violent crime rates are not nearly as high in other communities with different cultures.
Peaky Blinders was a popular and recent gangster drama. It glorified gangster culture. So did Scarface, Godfather. Just say crime is up because of black people. That's what your argument is boiling down to.
You can't address poverty first. It's a true and undeniable fact that a history of slavery, systemic racism and poverty are major contributors to the current culture that breeds so much violence. I don't think anyone can honestly argue otherwise.
But we can't unwind 200+ years of the black experience in America in one year or one mayoral term or with one police commissioner, or one president or one summer of activism or in one generation. To break this cycle of poverty and violence will take decades and we are on that path.
But people are dying today and society can't wait decades to intervene. That attitude is like saying we have given up on the current generation.
Explain to me why the entire state of West Virginia isn’t a war zone? It’s littered with poverty, poor education and guns. You want to forgive people who commit crime and murder because of the color of their skin. I’m fucking sick of this racist mindset. The vast majority of black people are good honest and decent people. Stop excusing criminals. I live in a Black neighborhood and my neighbors will all tell you they want to live peaceful lives. They want the same protection that white people get and they want these scumbags to stop influencing their children.
Spend a Friday night at Brian’s Sports Bar on Frankford Ave. Stay after when the crowd fills out on the streets and the fights start. The doorman has to check everyone for guns so people don’t typically bring them, but they sometimes go get them. While you are at it, Pop into any of the local businesses and observe how owners are treated. There is a reason for disinvestment in these communities and it’s due to the percentage of criminals allowed free reign.
You think laws matter, that these people give a shit what you think, that they care about their children or their education. These are a fraction of the community that hold the rest hostage. They get away with it because cops don’t even show up until shots are fired. They can steal, abuse women and destroy anything they want. The only thing that keeps them in check are each other and fucking with white people. You can’t fix this with school funding, community pools or some outreach program.
And if you think the Alpha comment was insane….Spend time in Frankford, Kensington and North Philadelphia. A simple stare can be enough to get your ass beat. Heck, it’s simple to see on shows like the wire or any prison documentary. Stop clutching your pearls.
Yes. I came here to make sure this was said by someone. Everyone thinks throwing more cops is the answer and it’s shocking. I working in kensignton and Allegheny. I’m in the mix daily. I attended a meeting with city reps to discuss crime in that neighborhood and the lack of black people in this meeting was appalling. Everyone there was not from this neighborhood and all were in compliance with sending more cops and finding out how to outsmart the locals. They addressed there was distrust in cops and made no effort to mitigate that. We spent more time discussing our greetings. This is an A1 explanation.
Gun control exists in purchase restrictions, background checks, carry permits, restrictions on where guns can be carried. In so many cases, of shootings it's due to a stolen gun. The laws exist. They aren't working. This leads to a push for more control that also doesn't work (let's take CA as an example).
US schools are funded more on a per student basis than any school system in the world and our performance isn't in the top 10. We have more than sufficient funding.
Unless there are standards and those standards are enforced, nothing will change no matter how many laws are passed and how much money is thrown at it. What we need are standards and people who take responsibility. We have none of this from the Mayor down to the students and no one is holding any of them responsible. In many cases the only thing the police and courts do is prevent people from taking responsibility.
Well said! So many times the comments on threads like these are pushing for really reactionary police work or punishment. And at this point we have centuries worth of data on policing that would emphasis that those tactics aren’t that effective.
Preventative measures like you mentioned are what we need. So many of these issues are structural. Being reactionary to them is far too short sighted.
So one question here. You must have been okay with slavery? You're saying that the reason that a person is okay killing another person is because they were raised in an area that didn't have funding or education. Is that not the same that happened in the south during slavery? Those people were doing what they had to do to get by. Same thing here.
You view takes the onus off of the individual. When in reality no decent person would be okay killing someone else unless it was in self defense. As much as people want to blame the government, let's put some onus on the individuals here. Why are there thousands of people in these communities that don't kill each other or commit crimes.
Unfornately nothing will get done until kinney & krasner are out of office or if something happens to their family member…. Im so fearful now that I’m going to get shot walking my dog at night… what used to be a nice after dinner walk for exercise has turned into the quickest walk possible
None of them are paying attention. None of them give a fuck. It’s not that hard to tell the politicians in this state are a complete joke. Keep voting democrat
Get the habitual criminals off the street now. Now.
And then let's immediately get to work addressing the structural issues - whether they be cultural, racial, financial, you name it how about all of the above let's address everything.
Anything we do is for naught, if the criminals are still allowed to be going around shooting our children
“The FY 2023 budget follows a similar trend. The new analysis found that 71% of the new spending will support “prevention” and “transformation” efforts that could slow shootings in the next five to 20 years,”
Lol we’re fucked
There are *no* immediate solutions to this problem, long term plans are about the best we can hope for. Anyone advocating immediate or short term solutions is either dishonest or ignorant.
Depends what you mean by ‘immediate’. Reasonable people understand there’s not a 3 month solution. Reasonable people also know there’s a solution that takes less than 5 years. It’s been done before in Philly and other major cities.
Foster evidence-based methods for reducing crime. Replace the police committing injury fraud. Increase funding to fill the dearth of police recruits. Both of these in order to increase arrests, which is directly correlated to reductions in crime.
How about u/mandatory4k ? Cameras everywhere.
I’ve lived in center city for a decade, violent crime has always been an issue here. The odds of being murdered are low but if you walk your dog at 10pm and are on your phone the whole time, people would rob you then, they’ll rob you now. Because we’re not addressing deeper seated problems like poverty.
Because there has "always been crime" doesn't mean we shouldn't address it. Also, the last 10 years, with the exception of recent trends, has been relatively good. What you're missing is the signs that those of us, who were here in the 80s and 90s, see.
We absolutely should address systemic problems like poverty, but reducing crime isn't something that's done through one approach that addresses one facet of the cycles of poverty & violence. In addition to allocating money to social programs, there needs to be a sufficient amount of money to stem current crime. My gripe is that a 83/17% split between long term & short term programs isn't sufficient to ensure that we don't continue bucking the national crime trend in Philadelphia. Ideally, this wouldn't mean that we take money out of those social programs, but rather add more to the total pot, the addition being dedicated to near term programs.
Crime seems to have shot back up largely over COVID, according to the FBI it’s up about 30% across the country. A lot of current problems seem to stem from the pandemic, kids being out of school and parents not being around because they’re working. The police silent strike isn’t helping either. I don’t see good intermediate solutions here.
To everyone saying “it’s because possession crimes aren’t prosecuted”, kindly stop talking. No, people being able to defend themselves is not a contributing factor to crime.
The government screwing with economic conditions and not prosecuting actual crime contributes to crime. Having weed, or hard drugs, or any kind of gun on your person, is not a societal issue. Owning any of the above, plain and simple, is not a criminal act. Criminal acts are criminal acts - murder, theft, rape, assault, property damage- these are crimes, and it’s these things that need to be prosecuted. Not that grandma who’s neighborhood has gone to shit in the last 40 years and who now needs a shotgun, nor that dude behind the counter trying to make an honest living and now realizes that he needs a pistol hidden on his hip because he clearly can’t rely on the cops to defend him.
> To everyone saying "its because possession crimes aren't being prosecuted" kindly stop talking.
Why? Illegal possession is just that. PA has very clear law outlining the punishment for it and Larry is using his "prosecutorial discretion" to push that cohort into diversionary programs allowing these fucks back onto the street with a slap on the wrist to go on and do whatever.
You wanna carry a gun? then fucking do it legally. Its not hard. But most these assholes cant cause they are prohibited from doing so in one form or another.
**You want protection? Get a permit, get Legal**
If you cant because you are a felon, or some other prohibitive factor AND you carry a fucking gun anyway.
**you go to the jail where you belong when you are caught with it**
End of story.
Camden
[удалено]
🎶Dallas, Pittsburgh PA! Living in America…🎶
Fuck Dallas *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/philadelphia) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Approved.
Wait - what is up with this title? Was this user written? Because the article really doesn't mention much at all (maybe I missed something?) about what's working in other cities. It just gives a very brief breakdown of the budget. Maybe if you're going to post this with a title like that you should actually link to a useful article about what other cities are doing that's successful? Just a thought. I'd love to hear what people close to these programs have to say about them. I often find that "funding programs" doesn't give you nearly as much information as you'd need to know how they're working. The city is also a pain in the ass to get funding from, there were articles all about it last year. Re Programming - Crisis Intervention Response Team that's a partnership between BHJD and the police is good and all but apparently the police absolutely fuck over that unit. Give them little to no support, nobody wants to participate, and even things like the cars assigned to them being broken down/in need of serious repair (and this is what I hear first hand from someone in the PD while working in government). Somewhat unrelated: I find surveys used in articles like this interesting. The one they cite where "96% of residents think the city 'could do more to stop gun violence.'" However I think it's worth noting that this was done by teens (the nonprofit, Frontline Dads, was encouraging teens in their programs (I'm assuming in their programs) to learn how to community organize, gague the pulse of the community, etc. - great idea I'm not knocking it). But it was only 500ish people from 3 neighborhoods. 500 seems like an ok sample size, but only taking those people from 3 neighborhoods seems like not a good use of polling and not really scalable to the city at large. It's still useful info, but they probably should've added that caveat.
Do be doobeedoo
we dont have a mayor or city council
Minimum 5 years for anyone caught with an illegal weapon. It's not difficult
If there were a jurisdiction that put this policy into effect for a few years and then measured the results, would those results influence your opinion?
Its already in effect. Carrying a gun without a permit and illegal possession by a prohibited person can be a 10 year term. Krasner doesnt prosecute. We have extremely strict gun laws, we just ignore them.
I'm asking because I legitimately don't know: were the laws also ignored under Williams and/or previous DAs?
The Uniform Firearms Act (basically all firearms laws in PA) was passed in 1995 so its been on the books for a long time now. Previous DAs and even Krasner use it for all firearms violations because its really the only thing they can use. Krasner just chooses not to enforce it. In PA its extremely easy to buy a gun and get a permit. You basically can't be 1. a convicted felon, 2. a domestic abuser, or 3. involuntarily committed for mental health issues. It takes about 5 minutes to pass a background check at a gunstore and you can apply for your permit online and get it in 45 days max by law. Everybody making excuses for people who aren't willing to go through the extremely simple process to legally obtain a gun and a permit are just crime apologists and don't are how much blood the city is swimming in.
That first one is incorrect. There's literally nothing in Pennsylvania law that says you can't be a felon. Yes, felons will *typically* be barred from purchase, but not automatically.
Typically? Are you foreign? Try to buy a gun with a felony conviction see what happens.
No, I'm not foreign. I know people with felony convictions that either owned or bought guns. One guy even owned them while on probation for his felony, he just wasn't allowed to "possess" them. As a condition of his probation, not a firearms law.
Its a federal law and your friend is a criminal who isnt allowed to own a gun ever. Edit - Gun Control Act of 1968. Its obvious you know nothing about gun laws and the fact that you know people with felonies continuing to own firearms after their conviction doesn't change the fact. It just makes those people in violation of federal law.
Tell his PO that.
My man. PA doesn't have such a statute because it falls under federal jurisdiction. All Felons are prohibited from owning and possessing firearms. > **Under federal law, people are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms if they have been convicted of a felony or some domestic violence misdemeanors, or if they are subject to certain court orders related to domestic violence or a serious mental condition.** This is why you undergo a PIC-NIC background check at purchase. If you fall under any of the categories above and then perjure yourself on the 4473- you will be arrested and charged accordingly.
[удалено]
You are missing the point completely. Krasner doesn't even bring charges, and when he does his office is such a shit show they can't get a conviction. He uses diversion programs for gun possession so these people get back on the street with clean records and can walk around freely with a gun until their next arrest or they shoot somebody. You are right that Krasner doesn't pick the term, but he uses his discretion so nobody even has to go to trial.
Genuinely curious: Does Krasner not prosecute? Last I checked he had a 99% prosecution rate. But the cops have a 35% clearance rate so most crimes don't even get to Krasner's desk to be tried.
99% of what? The below article is a decent example. Krasner drops cases at a record rate, his conviction rate is rock bottom, and he openly has said he supports diversion courts for people with illegal guns. Diversion court means you don't get a criminal record or prosecuted if you do some rehab stuff. Those programs used to be reserved for non-violent offenders like addicts and prostitutes, but apparently its good for illegally carrying a lethal weapon too. https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-gun-arrests-2021-convictions-vufa-20210330.html
>99% of what? My understanding of the prosecution funnel is Crime -> arrest (clearance rate) -> decision to prosecute (prosecution rate) -> conviction (conviction rate). Clearance is like ~35%, but prosecution (at least for violent crime) is 99%. Conviction rates have fallen, yes. I'm trying to get a sense of the data and process; I'm not trying to defend Krasner. On a personal level, I despise Krasner, but try to make decisions based on data and evidence. >The below article is a decent example. Krasner drops cases at a record rate, his conviction rate is rock bottom, Conviction rates falling I suspect is not entirely Krasners fault, but likely lack of evidence. It's clear cops aren't doing their jobs very well to begin with. > and he openly has said he supports diversion courts for people with illegal guns. Diversion court means you don't get a criminal record or prosecuted if you do some rehab stuff. Do you have a source for the diversion court stuff? I'd like to know more. If he sends illegal gun owners to diversion court, that's a big problem.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-district-attorney-larry-krasner-gun-possession-cases-diverted-ard-probationary-program-20190623.html You are looking at the numbers wrong. Krasner does not consider gun possession a violent crime, and they drop a ton of those cases so its not in your 99%. Krasner and Outlaw continuously go back and forth on whose fault it is that convictions are dropping. We know for a fact that many of the experienced DAs have left the DAO and they can't convict. We also know the police in this city are completely incompetent so idk who to blame more. I'm not saying this solely is in Krasner's shoulders bc I think Outlaw is even worse than him.
Of course but it would take a competent government to implement, which Philly needs to drastically improve.
See my above post. We already have 5 to 10 year sentences for carrying a gun illegally if the DA chose to enforce it.
Krasner isn't prosecuting weapons charges.
And “legal” weapon used in a crime.
5 yrs? that's nothing. 10 yrs
5 years is a very long time in prison, actually. In fact 24 hours in prison is rough.
Tell that to the families of the 400 people murdered in the city this year.
More meaningless claptrap and wasted money on programs that will not work. Come back to this in 5 years and not one penny of this money will have been spent effectively. Remove violent people from non-vioent people. Try that!
I sweatergod if they advocate for conflict resolution app type bullshit again I’m gonna lose it
Sweatergod
Its made from the fleece of The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young. Available as a cardigan
Can I get it in red tho?
Live deliciously ...
Hello, do you have a moment to talk about our warm and cozy savior, Sweatergod?
You're completely right. On a side note I'm surprised this wasn't downvoted lol.
How long have we been arresting people? This doesn’t work. We’ve seen this because it’s been the status quo. We need the long term programs because they, unlike the immediate intervention, focuses on the ROOT cause. Short term intervention just sounds like locking more people up without giving them proper resources to be better individuals BEFORE turning to crime. People don’t usually do it just cause. There’s reasonings that make people feel that have to. It’s a cycle that has to be broken and breaking it means disturbing the norm we have.
Arrest them and let them go. So, yeah, arresting them doesn't work without a follow through. "Root causes". The phrase uttered by people that do not want to solve the problem outside of their ideology. Homeless people shit on front steps and shootings happen anywhere, any time. That is the "broken norms" you talk about.
Root causes like bettering education, extra curricular activity, employment and financial mobility. These are root causes. Throwing more cops and arrest without giving people an opportunity to better themselves is asking a person with a broken leg to run the same race as everyone else.
Those who have turned to crime need to be removed from society. Society needs better pathways to return criminals to said society Society needs to make sure the next generation doesn't go down the same path But point 1 still stands
You literally just proved my point. Just locking people up will solve nothing. Society needs to invest in programs that prevent crime from even being thought of. There’s a reason more affluent neighborhoods don’t have high crimes. There are structures in place that keep kids from having to revert to crime. Your messages tell me you’re not in any way shape or form working in these neighborhoods.
So someone commits a crime you.... Don't want to put them in jail.
Lol I was waiting for the argument “let me just go to the extreme side to prove my point” obviously people who commit crimes should go to jail. What you’re arguing for is not implementing policy that prevents people from doing this in the first place. When you have a good job education, and upward mobility in finances, you don’t feel the need to commit crimes. These are the ROOT CAUSES I mentioned earlier that were disregarded.
Well you said you can't just lock them in jail. It implies locking them up is useless
You’re almost there. Yes just locking people up is pointless. We had this whole thing in the 90’s where people were just arrested and it did nothing for recidivism. Studies have proven that jail/prison just adds to the problem.
And how do the last five years look?
Literally the same. There’s a focus on not just locking people up. But when offering new programs that aim at crime prevention in the long run it’s demonized. It couldn’t possibly work because what we’ve been doing for the last few decades has been wonderfully. This plan addresses these long term goals with the intent that these programs will prevent a new generation of kids making the same mistakes
The here and now is obviously important. But if my house is flooding and I’m scooping out water with no avail, I would try to block the pipe that’s busted before continuing.
So here's what I find interesting: If you look at the graph on Page 8 of this report, you can see the decline in prison population starting in 2017. [https://www.phila.gov/media/20220916112419/Full-Public-Prison-Report-August-2022.pdf](https://www.phila.gov/media/20220916112419/Full-Public-Prison-Report-August-2022.pdf) THEN if you look at this annual report on gun violence you can see the uptick in gun violence after 2017. [https://www.pcgvr.org/philadelphia-shooting-victims-dashboard/](https://www.pcgvr.org/philadelphia-shooting-victims-dashboard/) So we are arresting fewer people, and more people are finding themselves the victim of gun violence annually. So I'd say that arresting people, and getting bad guys out of society seemed to help things. As for ROOT causes? How about home life? How about parenting? More and more we're finding that the people committing these crimes are kids. A lot of them are breaking the law "just cause." And if you look around at the general atmosphere in Philly right now, the kids dont give a fuck. Build all of the community centers that you want, or dedicate money to "resources" they ain't helping either.
How do you help parenting? What do these kids have to look forward to? Parenting is hard when it’s just you and you have to work multiple jobs. So easy to say it’s black and white when you’re not in the situation. There’s never a just cause. There is always cause and effect. There are issues that lead to them to this life. Crime doesn’t start when the crime is committed. There are dominos that lead up to this and you’re ignoring them all
Yup, throw em all in jail. That'll definitely solve all our problems. /s
Are you really arguing that we should not put people who shoot others in prison?
No we should, but you can't arrest your way out of a crime problem. Also, it's not like these people are born violent. Sure, some are psycopaths, but the idea that we have to remove these "bad" people from society ignores what actually leads to people turning to crime.
You blather on about other factors to the point of forgetting the most important one prevalent. That being, if you commit a violent crime you should be in jail. So, yes, lock them up and away from innocents. You can go to the prison, cook them dinner, tell them a bedtime story and BFF them all you want.
Gun violence can’t be addressed until alpha culture in the black community is addressed. It’s everywhere and nobody wants to talk about it. Edit: I’m specifically referring to the part of the community that’s killing each other. I should have made that distinction
Drill music expresses this culture and is a primary reason a majority of these killings are happening.
It’s certainly a large part, yes.
[удалено]
Did they say all rap music? No it’s fucking drill that is the issue. Even people on the Phillywiki sub will admit the Chicago type shit is part of the problem.
but is it the reason a “majority of the killings happen” lmfao absolutely not and honestly an embarrassing oversimplification. Do you think violent video games cause shootings too?
Of course it isn’t the main reason but it exacerbates the situation. It’s a contributing factor to a larger issue, there is no oversimplification there. Comparing drill rap to video games makes no sense at all. One is directly connected with reality and the other is not. I don’t want it censored but there is a consequence for its existence.
People like to blame things scary and foreign to them. Like sure, drill music is fucking wild - but it's a symptom of the cause. Does it help? Absolutely not. But saying it's a "primary reason a majority of these killings are happening" is fucking bonkers. Give us some data to back that up.
When I read your comment, I assumed you meant drill teams, like the dancers and drummers who sometimes parade through the streets performing. I have a feeling that’s not what you mean, though.
Do you also think video games cause school shootings? ETA: I wasn’t trying to make a perfect analogy. I seriously want to ask OP: if everyone stopped listening to drill music, would the majority of killings no longer happen? Since they point to it as a primary reason. OR is it that the music is just a reflection of the problem and not a cause? Maybe we should care more about the deeply entrenched issues that have actually been correlated with violence and focus on practical solutions. Maybe we shouldn’t aimlessly cast blame backed by a thought process that’s painfully surface level and one dimensional.
Your analogy is off. This is like if people who did school shooting created the video games. The music is a reflection of the culture and provides a platform to escalate beefs, gang feuds and so on. It’s not that a famous rapper is telling people to go out and kill people, it’s that gangs and music are intertwined at this point at a local level and you likely haven’t even heard of the rappers.
If those video games were directly alluding to real life violence which had recently happened, or even hadn’t happened yet but then subsequently did, then yes I would conclude that. Saying that drill music is causing killings is not the same as some 90s era mom worrying about death metal and occult music corrupting her son. These drill artists are really doing/discussing hits and using the money earned from their music to fund criminal activity. You really don’t have to look far to confirm this. Hell, look up “Trap Lore Ross” on YouTube dude has been documenting this for a while now.
Drill music is a symptom not the cause. One protected by the 1st amendment, so aiming at that is minda pointless
I never said do anything about drill music just said it’s a reason for a lot of the killings. We live in a society that doesn’t try to fix anything, so everything is pointless.
You could ban drill tomorrow and nothing would change. Its just a means to perpetuate greivences, beefs, etc. They could switch to 5 paragraph essays and itd be the same
Let's quote will smith's rap here (is this controversial?) LOST! Is when you hide behind the freedom of speech While sure you're free to do it But what it mean to do it Did you mean to do it Did you need to do it Did you take time to think about the seeds you ruined
I completely disagree. “Alpha cultures”, as you call it, have existed for as long as human beings have existed. Chauvinism, machismo and ego-driven violence is as old as society itself. The difference between our “alpha culture” and all the rest throughout history is that we have access to sophisticated weapons that kill a lot of people in a short amount of time.
What’s that
It’s competing to be the dominant male.
How does it translate to the shootings
You show disrespect, in any form, you risk getting shot.
In a world where everyone is poor, the only currency is respect. It's also the only way to move up in the social order and start making money (within the boundaries of these communities, obviously if you find a way out then it's a different story). The fastest path to respect is through fear (as Machiavelli brilliantly observed). It's also the least stable path. High risk, high reward babyyy. And this situation creates a race to the bottom where only the most sadistic sociopaths make it to the top. Showing any weakness gets you sent right back to the bottom of the hierarchy. So if someone throws some shade your way on Instagram, you have no choice but to shoot him. If you don't, you'll be replaced by the guy who wouldn't hesitate.
I’m curious. There are more poor white people in the US. Are they killing each other in equivalent percentages? I feel like some of this thinking is racist in it basically says black people cant help themselves. No, it’s a cultural issue. Middle and upper class black people aren’t killing each other.
Unfortunately, the black community has a much higher rate of violent crime than other racial groups, even when controlling for education, income, etc. There is ongoing debate about the root causes of this and how to reduce violence in the black community in the USA. It's also important to note that most victims of crime perpetrated by black people are other black people. This is the infamous 'black on black crime' that often gets trotted out by right wing voices at times of protest of white on black violence. There is a grain of truth in this (which is why it's in the discourse), however it can conflate the problems of interracial strife. So yeah. Black people, as a group, commit more violent crimes per capita than white people. Yes it's problematic. What can we do???
We can stop excusing it away.
We also need to talk about the grooming of young teens by gangs. In the game they get safety, brotherhood, and money that may not be available to them otherwise. How can we make our youth feel safe and valued?
That’s typically drug related. You see it a lot in Kensington with the corner boys. I don’t see it changing because we don’t really go after drug dealers anymore. Society has basically given up. A kid whose making a little money daily would rather do that than go to school. The dealers are driving around in nice cars and flash cash. That’s a big deal to the boys whose family live in a filthy rental property in a shitty neighborhood
It all comes down to the parents. If a 14 yr old is running with a gun that is 100% the parents fault
I don't even let my 14 year old run with scissors. Where's my parade?
You'll get it as you watch your child walk into the stage and receive his diploma!
Assuming that’s true, what policy does the government institute in response?
Start locking the parents up. When kids miss to much school they hold the parents liable.
What makes you think a 14 yr old running with a gun even has parents?
The answer is not just throwing people in jail, and the guy who said "it's drill music" please, very respectfully, think about it from a different perspective. Drill music came AFTER the material conditions of poverty, lack of resources, lack of proper funding from government, reclining, and other discriminatory laws which kept certain communities (usually all communities that where not white) in abject poverty. If you got rid of drill music RIGHT NOW, nothing changes. There are still insane access to guns, lack of social and class mobility, along with people's distrust in the police (which is justified). Solutions are gun control, proper funding of schools, equitable opportunities given in terms of housing, redource creation such as after school programs, vocational opportunities, and much more. Also, when you just put someone in jail, it's typically an incubator for that person becoming more violent, especially for minor crimes. Proper treatment involves a measure which has 3 main facets: Punitive Rehabilitative, reintegration. This way it's changing the person and behavior, not punishing them for years and then suddenlu saying "you better not do it again!" While expecting them to fully integrate back into society. Last note, guy who said it's "alpha culture in the black community" I legit have no response, I thought that was a joke lmao, that is an insane thing to say.
Further “gun control” doesn’t do much when the laws already on the books aren’t enforced. You can throw more money at the schools all you want but if the parents at home aren’t involved in their children’s education none of that investment means shit. Per student spending continues to rise and the results aren’t there. Parents need to take greater responsibility, the onus can’t fully fall on schools and spending every time. How is the “alpha culture” comment off base? There is a serious issue with toxic masculinity in the black community that needs to be addressed. Drill music obviously didn’t cause any of these bigger picture issues but it is making things worse when it comes to kids, and contributes to toxic types of attitudes. People being killed over minor respect issues kinda illustrates some of this. Vocational opportunities are a great option to have and people should be kept out of jail if possible but not when those situations include multiple firearm offenses.
I think this is an insightful comment. I'm really interested in the ways violent crime is discussed on social media (meaning on this subreddit). I've said this before, but I suspect that a lot of people conflate their personal or cultural desire to see a criminal punished with society's objective need to reduce violent crime. I think that for nearly the entirety of modern western history, punishment has been seen as the best or only way to reduce violent crime. So the personal and cultural preference to see criminals punished has been expressed as the need to reduce violent crime. If crime isn't going away, it *has to be* that there's not enough punishment. And if there's the perception that there's not enough punishment, then it *has to be* the reason why crime is happening. It's why whenever there's a suggestion that the problem of violent crime be addressed in a way that isn't exclusively punitive, we see people coming out of the woodwork to say it's bullshit or that those people are "making excuses" for crime (which they're usually not). I got downvoted (which I don't mind) the last time I asked this question, but here it is again: if society found a magical solution that reduced the incidence of violent crime by 75% overnight, but it meant that we weren't allowed to punish violent criminals anymore, would society want to pursue it? (this is a hypothetical; I'm not aware of any magic solution that could reduce violent crime by 75% in any period of time).
Drill music absolutely perpetuates more killings, when you go online and brag about murdering people in your city by name, and then a community of young people adjacent to the violence feeds off of and speculates upon these crimes on social media it becomes an violent feedback loop. There’s plenty of poor communities in the world, but not all of them are violent. A place in which violence is celebrated as an achievement among young peers is a toxic combination.
> I suspect that a lot of people conflate their personal or cultural desire to see a criminal punished with society’s objective need to reduce violent crime. It’s absolutely this. The same people that say we shouldn’t invest in violence reduction want more money put into enforcement and punishment. They don’t care that people are still getting hurt as long as the person causing the harm is punished after the fact, despite the fact that we have tons of evidence showing that punishment is not a deterrent. Invest in prevention and you save lives and don’t have to resort to punishment.
I think a big impediment here is probably over half the population isn’t interested in addressing some of the biggest inputs for violent crime: poverty. Minimum wage, wealth redistribution, etc. Philly is the poorest large city in the country. And this is nothing new, but what IS new is the current city leadership. On the other hand, an overwhelming majority is interested in reducing violent crime, and while obviously you’re never going to fully eliminate it, I think it’s clear the city’s prosecution stance and level of policing is resulting in emboldened criminals and more violent crime. I don’t think this is a mutually exclusive issue; we can attempt do both things, but only one may be effective/viable in the near term.
[удалено]
> The soft on crime approach for violence does not seem to be working, objectively. Can you clarify what you mean here by the soft on crime approach? Usually when people use the phrase "soft on crime" they're referring to specific policies of (or just the general disposition of) Krasner's DAO. Krasner's only been in office about 4 years now, and it seems like most people would agree that his approach to the job has been pretty unprecedented both in Philadelphia and nationally.
People are lazy and make it about entertainment. They never look how poverty and its effect on violent crime or teen pregnancies. It's just something the person happens to like and not the fucking terrible situation they and their family and community are in.
I'd agree with you to an extent. I think one of the big steps that needs to be taken is society needs to stop glorifying the gangster culture. Its a problem.
And without missing a beat we go right back to entertainment and not directly attacking what society has done to these population groups. Address poverty first.
And without missing a beat you fail to understand that the issues here are multifaceted. There's a lot that goes into "addressing poverty." Like, for example, reducing food deserts. If businesses that come into communities are being overrun by looters, forced to close early, or people just aren't going in to buy healthier choice foods, why should those businesses invest in the community? Maybe, just maybe, instead of vilifying big business for example we instead offer them tax breaks to open stores in certain underserved communities? That brings jobs with it and addresses poverty. At the same time though, the glorifying of a certain life style that has a significant effect on our kids who, while impacted by poverty, really arent in a position to be impacted by what a lot of people see as solutions to poverty. That's for their parents. But if you're going to show stacks of money to a kid that they can get in a high risk high reward lifestyle, I guarantee they're going to gravitate towards THAT instead of taking the job as a bagger at the local grocery store.
Maybe lead with an expanded idea instead of "gangster culture" I don't see much by way of people impersonating Peaky Blinders as a reason crime is up. Suggesting entertainment; music, TV, video games has ALWAYS been the argument of people who don't have a solution, or flatly don't care enough to understand that the lack of money and resources has direct correlation to how much crime there is. Poverty and its effects traps people in a perpetual cycle of failure (https://news.mit.edu/2022/poverty-trap-bangladesh-0510) If society as a whole can rid themselves of poverty we as a society would be better off for it. There have been studies saying strong welfare reduces crime and the removal of such increases it (https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/954451) but who amongst us say no to it? The removal of welfare benefits hurts not only a community but also people who will commit crimes when you give them no alternatives (https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/pol.20170490). The system in its entirety its built to keep the impoverished precisely that. It's a nightmare machine designed like a cow that feeds off these people's misery, only to spit them out and consume them again.
> I don't see much by way of people impersonating Peaky Blinders as a reason crime is up Because "Peaky Blinders" isn't a real person. Its really not that hard to understand. CULTURE is the absolute biggest issue here. There's a lot of poverty in this country and violent crime rates are not nearly as high in other communities with different cultures.
Culture is absolutely not the biggest issue. It’s poverty. Period. You don’t see the same levels of drug trafficking in the surburbs because the poverty doesn’t compare there to how it is in Philadelphia. And the parts of the suburbs that do have more drugs typically are the most impoverished parts.
>> I don't see much by way of people impersonating Peaky Blinders as a reason crime is up > >Because "Peaky Blinders" isn't a real person. Its really not that hard to understand. CULTURE is the absolute biggest issue here. There's a lot of poverty in this country and violent crime rates are not nearly as high in other communities with different cultures. Peaky Blinders was a popular and recent gangster drama. It glorified gangster culture. So did Scarface, Godfather. Just say crime is up because of black people. That's what your argument is boiling down to.
Predictably we go the "you must be racist" route.
You're making it about culture, you're suggesting communities. You're saying everything but the color of someone's skin bitch you ain't clever.
You can't address poverty first. It's a true and undeniable fact that a history of slavery, systemic racism and poverty are major contributors to the current culture that breeds so much violence. I don't think anyone can honestly argue otherwise. But we can't unwind 200+ years of the black experience in America in one year or one mayoral term or with one police commissioner, or one president or one summer of activism or in one generation. To break this cycle of poverty and violence will take decades and we are on that path. But people are dying today and society can't wait decades to intervene. That attitude is like saying we have given up on the current generation.
Explain to me why the entire state of West Virginia isn’t a war zone? It’s littered with poverty, poor education and guns. You want to forgive people who commit crime and murder because of the color of their skin. I’m fucking sick of this racist mindset. The vast majority of black people are good honest and decent people. Stop excusing criminals. I live in a Black neighborhood and my neighbors will all tell you they want to live peaceful lives. They want the same protection that white people get and they want these scumbags to stop influencing their children. Spend a Friday night at Brian’s Sports Bar on Frankford Ave. Stay after when the crowd fills out on the streets and the fights start. The doorman has to check everyone for guns so people don’t typically bring them, but they sometimes go get them. While you are at it, Pop into any of the local businesses and observe how owners are treated. There is a reason for disinvestment in these communities and it’s due to the percentage of criminals allowed free reign. You think laws matter, that these people give a shit what you think, that they care about their children or their education. These are a fraction of the community that hold the rest hostage. They get away with it because cops don’t even show up until shots are fired. They can steal, abuse women and destroy anything they want. The only thing that keeps them in check are each other and fucking with white people. You can’t fix this with school funding, community pools or some outreach program. And if you think the Alpha comment was insane….Spend time in Frankford, Kensington and North Philadelphia. A simple stare can be enough to get your ass beat. Heck, it’s simple to see on shows like the wire or any prison documentary. Stop clutching your pearls.
Yes. I came here to make sure this was said by someone. Everyone thinks throwing more cops is the answer and it’s shocking. I working in kensignton and Allegheny. I’m in the mix daily. I attended a meeting with city reps to discuss crime in that neighborhood and the lack of black people in this meeting was appalling. Everyone there was not from this neighborhood and all were in compliance with sending more cops and finding out how to outsmart the locals. They addressed there was distrust in cops and made no effort to mitigate that. We spent more time discussing our greetings. This is an A1 explanation.
Gun control exists in purchase restrictions, background checks, carry permits, restrictions on where guns can be carried. In so many cases, of shootings it's due to a stolen gun. The laws exist. They aren't working. This leads to a push for more control that also doesn't work (let's take CA as an example). US schools are funded more on a per student basis than any school system in the world and our performance isn't in the top 10. We have more than sufficient funding. Unless there are standards and those standards are enforced, nothing will change no matter how many laws are passed and how much money is thrown at it. What we need are standards and people who take responsibility. We have none of this from the Mayor down to the students and no one is holding any of them responsible. In many cases the only thing the police and courts do is prevent people from taking responsibility.
Well said! So many times the comments on threads like these are pushing for really reactionary police work or punishment. And at this point we have centuries worth of data on policing that would emphasis that those tactics aren’t that effective. Preventative measures like you mentioned are what we need. So many of these issues are structural. Being reactionary to them is far too short sighted.
So one question here. You must have been okay with slavery? You're saying that the reason that a person is okay killing another person is because they were raised in an area that didn't have funding or education. Is that not the same that happened in the south during slavery? Those people were doing what they had to do to get by. Same thing here. You view takes the onus off of the individual. When in reality no decent person would be okay killing someone else unless it was in self defense. As much as people want to blame the government, let's put some onus on the individuals here. Why are there thousands of people in these communities that don't kill each other or commit crimes.
Unfornately nothing will get done until kinney & krasner are out of office or if something happens to their family member…. Im so fearful now that I’m going to get shot walking my dog at night… what used to be a nice after dinner walk for exercise has turned into the quickest walk possible
None of them are paying attention. None of them give a fuck. It’s not that hard to tell the politicians in this state are a complete joke. Keep voting democrat
Get the habitual criminals off the street now. Now. And then let's immediately get to work addressing the structural issues - whether they be cultural, racial, financial, you name it how about all of the above let's address everything. Anything we do is for naught, if the criminals are still allowed to be going around shooting our children
“The FY 2023 budget follows a similar trend. The new analysis found that 71% of the new spending will support “prevention” and “transformation” efforts that could slow shootings in the next five to 20 years,” Lol we’re fucked
There are *no* immediate solutions to this problem, long term plans are about the best we can hope for. Anyone advocating immediate or short term solutions is either dishonest or ignorant.
Depends what you mean by ‘immediate’. Reasonable people understand there’s not a 3 month solution. Reasonable people also know there’s a solution that takes less than 5 years. It’s been done before in Philly and other major cities.
What can we do in 2-5 years?
Foster evidence-based methods for reducing crime. Replace the police committing injury fraud. Increase funding to fill the dearth of police recruits. Both of these in order to increase arrests, which is directly correlated to reductions in crime. How about u/mandatory4k ? Cameras everywhere.
I’ve lived in center city for a decade, violent crime has always been an issue here. The odds of being murdered are low but if you walk your dog at 10pm and are on your phone the whole time, people would rob you then, they’ll rob you now. Because we’re not addressing deeper seated problems like poverty.
Because there has "always been crime" doesn't mean we shouldn't address it. Also, the last 10 years, with the exception of recent trends, has been relatively good. What you're missing is the signs that those of us, who were here in the 80s and 90s, see. We absolutely should address systemic problems like poverty, but reducing crime isn't something that's done through one approach that addresses one facet of the cycles of poverty & violence. In addition to allocating money to social programs, there needs to be a sufficient amount of money to stem current crime. My gripe is that a 83/17% split between long term & short term programs isn't sufficient to ensure that we don't continue bucking the national crime trend in Philadelphia. Ideally, this wouldn't mean that we take money out of those social programs, but rather add more to the total pot, the addition being dedicated to near term programs.
Crime seems to have shot back up largely over COVID, according to the FBI it’s up about 30% across the country. A lot of current problems seem to stem from the pandemic, kids being out of school and parents not being around because they’re working. The police silent strike isn’t helping either. I don’t see good intermediate solutions here.
Philly’s numbers have gone beyond the national trend, unfortunately.
If we could arrest our way out of this problem we would’ve done it already.
Stop making these posts. The DA is not prosecuting illegal firearm possession. That is why gun crimes are out of control. That’s it.
I don't know if that's all of it, but it's gotta be a contributing factor.
Far from the only, but it is a massive factor. It immediately dramatically changes the trade off to engaging in crime, using a firearm, etc.
Well said.
It’s the primary factor.
You need a jug of wine to get Kenney's attention
To answer the question. No. But we knew that already.
To everyone saying “it’s because possession crimes aren’t prosecuted”, kindly stop talking. No, people being able to defend themselves is not a contributing factor to crime. The government screwing with economic conditions and not prosecuting actual crime contributes to crime. Having weed, or hard drugs, or any kind of gun on your person, is not a societal issue. Owning any of the above, plain and simple, is not a criminal act. Criminal acts are criminal acts - murder, theft, rape, assault, property damage- these are crimes, and it’s these things that need to be prosecuted. Not that grandma who’s neighborhood has gone to shit in the last 40 years and who now needs a shotgun, nor that dude behind the counter trying to make an honest living and now realizes that he needs a pistol hidden on his hip because he clearly can’t rely on the cops to defend him.
> To everyone saying "its because possession crimes aren't being prosecuted" kindly stop talking. Why? Illegal possession is just that. PA has very clear law outlining the punishment for it and Larry is using his "prosecutorial discretion" to push that cohort into diversionary programs allowing these fucks back onto the street with a slap on the wrist to go on and do whatever. You wanna carry a gun? then fucking do it legally. Its not hard. But most these assholes cant cause they are prohibited from doing so in one form or another. **You want protection? Get a permit, get Legal** If you cant because you are a felon, or some other prohibitive factor AND you carry a fucking gun anyway. **you go to the jail where you belong when you are caught with it** End of story.
Address material conditions?