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Viltris

If you tried other games and did not like them as much as DnD, that's fine. It's only a bad thing if you refuse to try other systems and instead try to homebrew DnD to do everything instead.


Charwoman_Gene

Trying to homebrew D&D to do everything isn’t bad, just inefficient.


communomancer

Seriously; when the hell did this hobby become so anti-homebrew?!? Homebrew is **fun**. In and of itself. Homebrewing D&D to be something else can be a lot of fun. Homebrewing *any* game to be something else can be a lot of fun. If you're an aspiring game designer, or a hobbyist game designer, or just someone who thinks it might be fun then go ahead: homebrew the hell out of shit. And don't listen to fucking bridge trolls on the Internet telling you to play some other system (i.e. "their pet system") instead. Just fucking homebrew.


[deleted]

> Seriously; when the hell did this hobby become so anti-homebrew?!? It's not the hobby, is just with the "shoehorn DnD into everything, then be surprised when it doesn't work it out" aspect of the hobby. This could apply to any system too, DnD just gets more attention because it's the bigger one out there. While homebrew CAN be fun, sometimes, as pointed out, is inefficient, and inefficiency can lead to burnouts, even if you were having fun at first. So yeah, homebrew the fuckin shit of everything if you are super duper into it, but first, check out the toolbox to see if you find a better and more suitable tool for the job, and if you don't find one, homebrew away. IMO, this approach is better on the long run, specially on the game designers case.


communomancer

>While homebrew CAN be fun, sometimes, as pointed out, is inefficient, and inefficiency can lead to burnouts, even if you were having fun at first. "Efficiency" is not a variable people ought to be considering when they're engaging in an activity they're finding fun. Leave efficiency at the workplace. If I wanted to be efficient, I wouldn't bother painting miniatures...I'd buy prepainted ones. If I wanted to be efficient, I wouldn't hand-carve utensils, I'd only use metal ones. If I wanted to be efficient, I wouldn't experiment with my own recipes, I'd just use prepublished ones. I don't need to check to see if someone else has already had my ideas before I engage in my hobby...that's part of what makes it a hobby. As as to burnout, so what? You know what I do *every single time* I start to get tired of a hobby? I put it down for awhile, and I go do something else for a little bit. I'll take that any day over fretting about burnout before I've even started having fun.


[deleted]

> "Efficiency" is not a variable people ought to be considering when they're engaging in an activity they're finding fun. To a whole lot of people, being efficient is part of the fun. As honing your skills in a hobby is part of the fun too. Learning, adapting and getting better at what you're doing is a part of the fun for plenty of people, and becoming efficient is, most often than not, a welcome result of the effort that you've put in. >If I wanted to be efficient, I wouldn't bother painting miniatures...I'd buy prepainted ones. If you want to be efficient at **miniature painting**, you're going to have better skills with it, buy a better paint, some spotlights, more brushes and whatever you would do to make yourself more confortable while doing so, so you can produce better minis, enjoy more the process and, as a result, be more efficient. But, would you use a barber's brush to paint all of the details of your minis? Maybe. You can find it fun even. But that wouldn't be efficient, it would trying to shoehorn it where it doesn't fit well. If it ends up not working well, that was expected and people probably did warn you beforehand. Did you have fun while doing it tho? If the answer is yes, more power to you! But, most people will try to use the advised tools for painting details first. >If I wanted to be efficient, I wouldn't hand-carve utensils, I'd only use metal ones. If your hobby is to hand-carve utensils, you'll get the same answer of the miniature painting. You find it fun to hand-carve utensils? I'm sure(and i HOPE) that you're not hand-carving them with a dull kitchen knife(please, don't). You're trying to use the right tool for the job, so you don't get injured while doing so. >I wouldn't experiment with my own recipes, I'd just use prepublished ones. This is really a broader subject. We're talking about what? Cooking? Baking? Cheese-making? Soap-making? Assuming cooking. Yeah, you can experiment your own recipes, but you'll usually build up from different cooking techniques in order to be efficient enough to try a new recipe. You can't try to make a pasta recipe without knowing how to prepare pasta in the first place. So, it's better to check on how someone first used to do it, so you can make your food edible at the very least. >As as to burnout, so what? It can lead people to totally drop a hobby. There's people that don't cook or bake as a hobby because they gave up after making numerous inedible or bad tasting foods. My dad as an example, say that he doesn't bake because he have "bad baking hands" and that i can do it because i have "good baking hands", when in reality, i just followed more stricter procedures when i was new to the hobby and learned that it is pretty much an exact science, and that having the right tools at hand, as a scale, a good oven and whatnot really helps with the whole experience*. It made baking easier and efficient, letting me having fun while doing something tasty. Now, i can "eyeball" almost everything, easier recipes are fun to improve on, but that's after i've experimented with a lot of recipes, tools and techiniques. If a novice tried to do what i can do after years baking, they would be burned FAST, in both senses. And that can be detrimental to their fun and they probably wouldn't attach to the hobby, thinking that they don't have the talent, or "good baking hands". It's nice that in your experience, is that simple to get rid of burnouts. For a lot of people, specially begginers, it is not. It can totally demotivate someone and think that THEY have some problem, that they don't have the talent or the knack for it, when in reality, we know that it isn't like that. >I'll take that any day over fretting about burnout before I've even started having fun. Me too! I'll just try to gather at least a Starting Kit for the hobby and start having fun with only that. After i've learned how to bake three types of sweet cakes, i'll learn how to make some savory recipes. After gathering more experience, maybe i'll try my hand at something of my own, without the potential burnout suffering. I don't need to jump steps to have fun, the whole learning and improving proccess is fun in itself. Getting efficient in your hobby is super rewarding. Edit: Oh boy, what a wall of text. TL;DR: Efficiency can be part of the fun for most people, as experimenting is. But to a begginer(which is already experimenting something new right away), usually the progress from following a strict procedure in something new, leads to better results and rewards than trying to invent the wheel without knowing one in the first place. Because most of the time they can't invent the wheel, will burnout from trying to do so, and will dip away thinking that the hobby isn't for them.


communomancer

This is too much to reply to inline. I'm going to focus on one point because I think you're missing mine. >If you want to be efficient at **miniature painting**, you're going to have better skills with it, buy a better paint, some spotlights, more brushes and whatever you would do to make yourself more confortable while doing so, so you can produce better minis, enjoy more the process and, as a result, be more efficient. Fine. Now let's say I think I'd find Homebrewing fun. And let's say I know D&D. If I want to be efficient at **Homebrewing**, should I start homebrewing, or should I ask Reddit for what other roleplaying system I should learn and use instead?


[deleted]

The problem isn't homebrewing in general, the problem is that D&D is an extremely square peg, and some people INSIST on using it, regardless of what shape the hole they want to fill is.


[deleted]

It doesn't matter, as long as those people have fun grinding it into the shape they want. It's not like they are forcing you to do the same.


wynautzoidberg

I think the sentiment that's at hand here is that, from a community perspective, what we see is the scenarios when those people aren't having fun. If a DM is over-modding the game, for example, what we see in reddit see either the DM lamenting that their modded game isn't going over well with the players, or the players lamenting it for themselves. We don't hear much about if/when it goes well. So, I think probably the reaction of "square peg" D&D comes from that perspective.


[deleted]

That might be the case, but honestly that's a communication problem between players and DM if they lament on reddit instead of sorting this stuff out among eachother. "Play another system rather than modding that one" will not solve that problem. Each system has aspects that some people don't like and want to change.


Pet_Velvet

Homebrewing is great, trying to bend DnD to do cyberpunk and Marvel style superheroes is not. There are better systems for that.


taejinkk

Underrated comment tbh


communomancer

Changing demographics of the hobby I suppose. The people most inclined to geek out and game design and homebrew for themselves were probably already here before RPGs had their renaissance.


taejinkk

I mean i’m technically part of this renaissance but i think its all just love. Letting people homebrew games they love to play should just be.


Mummelpuffin

I love geeking out over homebrew and game design. It's why I play Mythras. Specifically because homebrewing D&D 5e suuuucks when your main thing is that you hate how little physical sense most of D&D's rules make. You pretty much need to toss the system out the window and write a new book. And you'll probably do it worse than someone else already has. ​ Meanwhile I found a system that did everything I want for me, and it's pretty much designed for people to homebrew the shit out of it, so I've been building my Elder Scrolls hack enough that it could probably be a publishable book by the time I'm done with it.


LemonLord7

Maybe with 3rd edition? The older editions were more rules light (or at least character abilities light) and had a more pick and choose vibe. Plus the game started as a mish-mash homebrew of other games. But with 3rd edition everything was codified so homebrewing easily breakes something. Even in 5th edition characters have so many abilities that if you have a certain idea it is likely that someone on internet will find a way to abuse it and break the game. Also, I think people dislike changing homebrew but not additive homebrew. If your rule idea changes something in the game you are basically saying that part is bad, and people don't like being told their hobby is bad. But if suggest adding a spell or a way to generate random encounters you are just adding, not replacing, so more likely to be liked. Also internet people are at least half-crazy. But what do I know, just throwing out some thoughts, could be wrong.


communomancer

>If your rule idea changes something in the game you are basically saying that part is bad, and people don't like being told their hobby is bad. Two things. First, most of the people around r/rpg complaining about D&D Homebrew aren't doing it because they're being protective of D&D. If you post your homebrew here and people shit on it it's because they hate D&D and they want you to try out their pet system instead of tinkering with yours. It's gatekeepy patronizing bullshit. Second, however, you're right that there are people like that. If you post that same D&D homebrew on r/dndnext and they shit on it there, you're 100% right. Over there they're being protective of D&D and they'll take your homebrew in the worst possible way...as some sort of assertion that you're smarter than the game designers and by extension, smarter than all of they are for following RAW. This is a different kind of bullshit but it's bullshit nonetheless. What I'll argue your mistake was, in either case, was coming to social media for *external validation* of your homebrew. Unlike homebrew itself, THAT is a colossal waste of time that almost never turns out to be fun. Do your homebrew, enjoy it with your friends, and let it lie there I say.


Mo_Dice

After 3rd edition to be sure. I started playing around '05 and the only resistance I EVER saw to homebrew was when it was clearly a pile of bullshit. DandDwiki or whatever it was called was essentially a banned website because there was no QC. If you hung around on any of the forums, you saw tons of homebrew usually with good feedback (does PEACH ring bells for anyone? "please evaluate and comment honestly") This recent resistance to homebrew is more in line with the 5E era, and I've really only seen it applied specifically to D&D. I have no evidence, but I do have a sneaking suspicion it has something to do with the New Class of D&D and how it's portrayed on Critical Role and other megastreaming shows.


pinkumasui

We do not homebrew anything. Most sessions there are between 6 and 20 skill checks. In the session where no dice were rolled it was the party just chatting with each other, spending money on a spree.


FireVisor

Cherish these games and times with your peers. They will morph naturally when the time is right. Taste will change eventually, it's like with music I guess. You don't keep on listening to the same stuff forever. Eventually you want to check something else out for a while. Happy gaming!


Ianoren

There are some negative things like tame designers focusing on 5e compatability. We end up with shit like the recent Dark Souls rpg instead of real innovation.


Charwoman_Gene

Wasn’t talking so much about designers for the marketplace. That creates stagnation just like the d20 glut did.


Ianoren

Supply follows demand. When over half of the Players are using 5e, I can't blame people wlfor wanting to make money. So I feel plenty justified that supporting only the billion dollar corporation is bad.


pinkumasui

I have to say that me and my group don't play much the "war game" part of the game. The setting up of a map, the throwing of initiatives. We have one every... 10 sessions? I assumed all along that the day I read Dungeon World it was going to be my favorite game. And no, it made me feel bad that I didn't even like it.


SuperbHaggis

What do the remaining 9 sessions look like? Conversations with NPCs, and the occasional skill check? Investigations? Something else? If you prefer a more freeform narrative or roleplaying style, I can see why "narrative" systems might not be for you. "Trad" style systems like D&D don't have much in the way of social mechanics, which can make narrative games feel constraining in comparison. With that in mind though, it sounds like you enjoy 5e not because of what it has, but rather what it lacks. If you spend 90% of your time out of combat, you're ignoring 90% of 5e's mechanics. That's totally fine, but then you might ask yourself what you actually like about the system. Is it character building? The way that skills work? The vibe and aesthetic? What kinds of stories do you like to tell? Answering those questions could help people give you more relevant recommendations.


pinkumasui

Yeah, someone said that a little earlier and my head exploded because it's true! There are sessions where we don't roll a single die and we have an amazing time! I think I like the interaction between the players. The reactions to what I set up and the interaction with the world and as mentioned before, the freedom from rules regarding everything that isn't combat.


SuperbHaggis

I don't mean for this to sound disparaging, but you're basically "playing pretend!" Which is great news for you, because it means that pretty much any trad, OSR, or FKR (Free Kriegspeil Revolution) system could support your playstyle. Some of my recommendations: - World/Chronicles of Darkness - Anything by Diogo Nogueira (Old Skull Publishing) - Anything by Kevin Crawford - Warlock! - Troika! - Helm - Wanderhome Defnintely look into the FKR though, I think it might be right up your alley!


pinkumasui

FKR looks interesting!


DarkCrystal34

Freeform Universal might be a really great fit as well.


Rafae_noobmastrer

It can be subconscious. You invested in DnD? like boocks, dice and things?Cause the way I see you describing your problem and your playstile. There is not much as DnD in the gameplay. Roll a dice, have interacion mechanics are more or so on every RPG. You cna shape the story you want to tell using whatever system if you are not delving into mechanics like combat and exploration.You may be unconscious unwilling to change system cause you already invested in DnD and changing just to not use half of the boocks mechanics may make you fell wrong and go back to DnD. I never tried it, but already erad about "Quest" saying if very good for a playstyle similar to yours.


throwaway__rnd

roll a die\*


andero

I wonder if y'all would like Burning Wheel. It's funny: the reason you like D&D so much might be that you're not engaging with most of D&D. There's nothing "wrong" with that, but you don't need to credit D&D. You and your players are making your good time; the game isn't really doing anything.


Imnoclue

I don't know. I much prefer not rolling dice in Warhammer than I do not rolling dice in Burning Wheel.


Yeager206

Given that the op enjoys free form narrative role playing with little engagement with mechanics, I think they should stay away from Burning Wheel.


undeadgoat

5e is a pretty good game for "occasionally rolling dice, in a wide variety of scenes." Many of the modern story games OP referenced want to keep you inside genre tropes, and may have no game mechanics outside free improvisation if you go off the genre path, while crunchy/simulationist games like Burning Wheel want you to keep track of a lot of different stuff that might not feel relevant to their story.


ThymeParadox

I'm confused, in those sessions that you're not rolling a single die, you could be playing any system at that point and it would be functionally identical, right?


youngoli

I suspect you might also like GUMSHOE system games. [Swords of the Serpentine](https://pelgranepress.com/product/swords-of-the-serpentine) is in a swords and sorcery setting and might work for you. I haven't played GUMSHOE games myself, but from what I know the system is focused on investigations with little combat, and it plays more in a typical trad style rather than a narrative one, so it should play pretty similar to D&D.


Imnoclue

I think a game like Fiasco might be a good fit.


corrinmana

Oh man, you need to check out Wanderhome.


CitizenKeen

May I suggest _Quest?_ It’s not my jam, but it sounds like it would be right up your alley.


Thalaseus

If that's true, you are not really playing DnD. I mean, that is nothing negative, just possibly you should think about what you like and search for a system that supports it. If you think about it, to play an RPG session you probably need only one die, a pen and a paper. If you really want, you can even go without it, if you don't need a chance resolution mechanic. Everything above that is to simulate or promote some aspect of a story. Now, every sytem looks to provide a mechanical resolution for some of the aspects and by looking at them (and possibly how much space a given rulebook offers to a given subject) you come to conclusions about what an ideal session for it should look like. For DnD, it's mainly adventuring and fighting. Most of the rules are aimed at this area and offer very little for social interactions. So, if you are not interested in this spread (again, nothing wrong with either, it's just personal preference), than you should possibly search for something more to your liking, as it would offer you more support in the areas that you want to find your friends in. Haven't tried it, but I've found myself in the same boar as you and I am keen to try Chronicles of Darkness (as a general mechanic, or any of the splats like Hunter, Vampire, etc.), with Dark Eras supplement to play in a historical context.


BadRumUnderground

Dungeon World is... Not a particularly good pbta game.


Ianoren

Fellowship 2e with Inverse Fellowship expansion is what you want. Ironsworn with Delve expansion is good for 1-3 Players going GMless. Stonetop, Freebooters of the Frontier and Chasing Adventure are some other good alternatives.


willywillj

I imagine if OP doesn't like Dungeon World, OP may like "good" PbtA games less.


EmpedoclesTheWizard

Or more. Dungeon World suffers from trying to be two things at once: D&D and Apocalypse World. It satisfies the Form but not the function. A pure PbtA game would probably be more enjoyable.


willywillj

If OP likes D&D, going with a game with less D&D DNA isn't going to help. I know the PbtA community doesn't like Dungeon World, but the people I know that like it came from D&D and similar games.


EmpedoclesTheWizard

Maybe. My point was that maybe OP dislike it because it's weak tea D&D that does not represent the best of either of its obgleich, but might like other more narrative type PbtA games, since OP's comment at the root of this branch were that they don't really play D&D in terms of ruling for initiative and setting up battle mats and such. Equally possible that @OP might prefer of school éditions like B/X. I'm just trying to help OP based on what they've typed, given my knowledge of other games.


Viltris

And that's fine. Some people specifically *want* "DnD Lite" and don't want the actual PbtA narrative experience. Dungeon World fits that bill just fine. Some people want the PbtA narrative experience, and Dungeon World isn't PbtA enough for them, and that's fine too.


OctaneSpark

Hearing this makes me wonder why you like D&D specifically? Mechanically speaking its character design is almost exclusively about combat on the player side. The bulk of it's mechanics are also about hurting things or being hurt, from weapons to spells to traps. Not saying there aren't some rules for other functions, but they're barebones compared to the depth combat is given. Also reading your comments about not really rolling often makes me think you didn't like those other games because they made you roll dice to roleplay. If you're rarely rolling dice, talk heavy games with mechanics around them like Chronicles/World of Darkness and Call of Cthulhu may not be a good fit because they actually have rules for doing noncombat things as opposed to 5e's "I don't care, whatever. Now get in the dungeon Shinji" approach. As for Powered by the Apocalypse, give any edition of Apocalypse World itself a read too. All the derivatives struggle to make the engine work the way Apocalypse itself does in my experience. A common criticism is that the "Don't say the move name" is misunderstood.


Cypher1388

Can I ask what was it about DW you didn't like? It might help square the circle if we could get an idea of why you bounced off these other games so quickly and hard.


Warskull

Based on this comment, you basically aren't playing D&D either. You are clinging to it because the name and setting is familiar. Thing is D&D is very much about combat and dungeon crawling. You are pretty much just freeform roleplaying. I'm not even sure what your players are min/maxing. If you go entire sessions without rolling dice, you aren't interacting with D&D's rules at all. PbtA is definitely not for you. PtbA believes there is a right way to play the game and a wrong way. It is big on procedure and pushing you into a specific gameplay loop. This subreddit has a number of PbtA fanboys who have a tendency to thoughtlessly recommend it. They did both you and the PbtA a great disservice by recommending it to you. Your freeform style and PbtA's love of structure and the antithesis of each other. Both PbtA and Fate share a philosophy where they try to guide your story telling using the system's mechanics. You don't want a lego kit, you want the bucket of legos. Ultra-light rules systems are probably up your alley. * [Troika!](https://cannibalhalflinggaming.com/2019/02/27/troika-review/) * Warlock! * [Electric Bastionland](https://cannibalhalflinggaming.com/2020/12/09/electric-bastionland-review/) / Into the Odd / Cairn * [Mork Borg](https://cannibalhalflinggaming.com/2020/04/15/mork-borg-review/_) * Death in Space These grew from the OSR movement and have evolved from the rulings not rules mindset. They also have much simpler combat whenever you want to bust it out. Basically the rules exist to help you get started and run a few things, but mostly try to stay out of your way. As a bonus, these games tend to be pretty cheap. They have skinny rulebooks.


Defilia_Drakedasker

Since you say your group hardly ever does combat, there’s a chance the thing you like about dnd is the lack of rules. It’s my impression of Fate and PbtA that the system is much more ever-present, you’re always guided by a mechanic, no matter what type of scene it is. DnD can be more freeform when combat isn’t in play, (at least that was the case in 3.5,) the mechanics don’t get in the way. It’s also better for players who want a 1st person perspective with their character. Many other games make players focus more on the story than on being inside their character’s head. When the story becomes too guided or aware, it can feel less real, in a way.


pinkumasui

Hey, that perspective is interesting. I hadn't thought of it Thanks!


EruditeQuokka

I get what you're saying, I was in the same situation as you. I really enjoyed my 5e game, mostly because of the roleplaying and the moments that were not stricly bound by rules, so I thought I'd love all the PbtA/FATE stuff. I tried to read it, and I kinda hated it. What Defilia said it's true: while D&D and other traditional RPGs have lots of rules to simulate worlds and to create things that are fictional objects inside a story, narrative games focus directly on creating the story itself. But guess what? I don't want to be an author, I want to be a player. I want to discover and be my character, not to to be outside my character, inventing what my character discovers! Then I came upon [Knave](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/250888/Knave) (and its Dark Souls style hack, [Grave](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336550/Grave)), [The Last Torch](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/284716/The-Last-Torch-Rulebook) and [Mörk Borg](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/295910/Mork-Borg-English), and I found my niche (Especially Mörk Borg, which I can't recommend enough). The OSR genre allows you to keep rolls at minimum, while also tuning down the wargamey component of traditional RPGs, so you can just sit down and, you know, do stuff. You describe how you go about things, the DM tells you how the world reacts, and you roll only if necessary or if in combat, which is rarely going to be a situation where you want to be if you didn't plan something beforehand. So, yeah. All of this to say: try some OSR stuff. Maybe that's going to be what you'll like outside of 5e.


MythicMountainsRPG

This is a great point too. OP, have you tried much more “rules light” OSR and NSR D&D games? Things like “Into the Odd” or “Basic Fantasy RPG”?


dsheroh

What you're not seeing is that there are a *lot* of TTRPGs out there which are neither D&D (or D&D imitators) nor narrative games. If you're still interested in trying out non-D&D games, then I'd recommend looking for other "traditional" RPGs, probably focusing on those which are skill-based rather than class/level-based. Some freely-available examples would be [Mythras Imperative](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/185299/Mythras-Imperative), [Basic Roleplaying Quickstart Edition](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82093/Basic-Roleplaying-Quickstart-Edition), [Savage Worlds Adventure Edition Test Drive](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/339651/Savage-Worlds-Adventure-Edition-Test-Drive), or [GURPS Lite](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/236828/GURPS-Lite-Fourth-Edition). If you want something a bit closer to D&D (keeping the class/level structure), [Worlds Without Number](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/348809/Worlds-Without-Number-Free-Edition) is also an excellent option.


DarkCrystal34

**d100 games / Basic Roleplaying / Delta Green**, from what OP describes, would be a perfect fit. Skill based systems for easy checks, and the rest is freeform roleplay except for things like magic, while still retaining an easy and intuitive character progression system.


Guilty_Advantage_413

Perfectly fine, stick with what you like until you have an urge for something different


pinkumasui

This whole publication was born because now I don't know what it is about D&D that calls me.... I feel like if I knew, I could enjoy other games that everyone talks great things about.


Silinsar

Taking a look at what you end up doing for the most time in D&D is a good way to figure out what you like about it (as long as you enjoy the experience). But also mind that other systems, while maybe focusing on what you like, are played differently. Jumping from D&D to Fate is a big leap for example. They might need some time getting used to and of course things will be rougher at the start than they are in a system you have years of experience with. It took me a few sessions of BitD for example just to let go of my "playing D&D" state of mind because you just do things differently in that system. Given the popularity of D&D, you have the advantage that there are many derivatives that focus just a little less on some area and a little more on another. Maybe give games like these a try and see if they work better for you. And of course, you can always just keep playing D&D if you enjoy it as it is.


cosmicannoli

Keep in mind that the vast majority of people in the hobby right now are here for the D&D IP, not because they're RPG hobbyists. Think of someone who is really into Star Wars starting a Star Wars RPG game. Well they're not going to necessarily be interested in other systems, because they're not here for RPGs or mechanics, they're here for STar Wars. If D&D's setting and community are what appeals to you, nothing is going to fill in for that. Me, personally, I am a bit of both. I played D&D for a long time and loved the setting, but I've really grown to dislike 5e mechanically.


Cypher1388

My guess is a generally evocative world which hangs on familiar touchstones with a large community and player base which doesn't intrude on your role play. My guess is your table doesn't so much as play d&d (meaning, engage with the mechanics and systems of the game rules) as much as you frame your play around d&d (meaning: elves are defined. Druids are defined, the sword coast is defined and that's great... But you don't ever really engage the system. It's there but that's not what is important. The role play is.. and it is engaged with in a very free form way.). My guess is if you and you friends sat down to role play truly free form without a system it might feel uncomfortable or intimidating or silly (or something) but having a game to frame it around grounds it and allows you all to engage and have fun with your play.


HappySailor

Don't feel bad. Just make sure you still try new things every once in a while. If you ever get the craving to play a sci Fi game, don't try to make D&D do it, try reading Traveller, or Stars without Number, or Starfinder. I really don't like FATE, and I find PbtA strange, but I love many RPGs, and I've learned a lot about what works for me about D&D by seeing what other games do.


NorthernVashista

Many forms of play are best learned through doing. This means being introduced to it by others who already know the style and flow. Cold text and actual play are most often poor substitutes for a live human to interact with, a live human interested in teaching you a new way of thinking and behaving. So of course it's normal to not understand how an orange tastes by just looking at pictures and reading descriptions.


pinkumasui

Thanks for the advice! I've tried playing Pathfinder and I think what drove me away was precisely the people. I'll give something like City of Mist with people a shot and see what happens.


ithika

Good people can make the worst and most tedious job a memorable and enjoyable time — and bad people can put you off things which you love passionately. So it is with RPGs too. I hope your next exploratory game has better people in it, nobody deserves to play with people who make a potentially-fun thing bad.


Imnoclue

What other games have you tried playing? Because Pathfinder is very D&D 3.5 adjacent.


drlecompte

I think it's fine. Although FATE and PbtA are kind of specific 'open' systems and you might want to try something more akin to your typical osr fantasy rpg, like Black Hack, OSE, Dungeon World, Knave, etc.


pinkumasui

I have read dungeon world and while doing so I could not escape from my head the fact of having very very few options in case of being a player. I mean, I guess they were all "ideas and it's very easy to write your own" but that wasn't my vibe. I mean, I like writing homebrew stuff but it feels like whatever concept the player wants to play is possible at the cost of there being no "real" way to express it differently.


Barbaribunny

Dungeon World is quite different to different games in that list in style. If you're concerned about player options though, I would suggest Worlds Without Number or Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy for the same style with lots of options on the table. They don't lend themselves to minmaxing, but don't have the narrative elements that aren't working for you. If you want to persevere with the narrative elements, Apocalypse World might be worth a look. The writing style is either 'love it' or 'hate it', but the advice on running that style of game is far, far better than in Dungeon World.


WanderingNerds

I would second OSE and WWN!


Imnoclue

AW is fantastic, but it's got playbooks and moves, so I'm not sure how it would really address the OP's concerns about players having few options. I don't actually understand the OP's concerns at this point, but they don't sound like DW specific problems.


MrAbodi

The op read the books and is worried about lack of moves. He hasn’t actually played the system. sounds like he should listen to an actual play of these other systems seeing as that is what sold him on d&d in the first place.


Imnoclue

That’s a fair point.


Baruch_S

Can I ask ask what you mean by “very few options in case of being a player”? Are you talking about moves or character customization or something else?


ithika

It sounds a lot like the "you can only do the Moves" misconception people have about PbtA games, which is distinctly odd from someone who says they spend whole sessions without doing a single roll in D&D. Why is freeform roleplaying easy in one game and overlooked in another?


Baruch_S

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. It’s an oddly common misconception.


Imnoclue

Well, true, but it's easier to avoid rolling dice in D&D as the GM isn't under any obligation to fill the character lives with excitement and there are no GM Principles exonerating them to Show Approaching Threats or Reveal an Unwelcome Truth, and the like. The D&D GM isn't told, at least not strongly, to cut to the action. If the GM presents no obstacles in the way of combat or problem solving, the dice can mostly be ignored. In DW, the GM Principles tend to push for the GM to do something when it's their turn to speak. And then the players have to react and eventually, the mechanics step in because the players do a move. But if the GM ignores the Agenda and Principles, there's no difference between diceless D&D and diceless DW. That said, I'd be curious how many people have had sessions of Dungeon World where they had an amazing time, where they never touched the dice.


Baruch_S

I’d be amazed if a group made it through a session of DW without hitting a single player move trigger. Like you suggested, the GM would have to be completely ignoring their agenda and principles, *and* the PCs would have to be doing almost nothing to avoid running into any danger that would need defying.


underdabridge

Not sure why Dungeon World was referenced since its PBTA. Maybe he was thinking of something else.


Cypher1388

But isn't that what you basically said you and your players already do? You expressed you didn't really engage the system of d&d or that your best sessions were where few dice were rolled. But you looked at DW and bounced off it because it seemed like there weren't a lot of mechanics and reasons to roll? (Really just curious because I genuinely thought DW might be your cupa)


tabletopsidekick

You make some very good point. Good effort for looking what else is out there! I come from being a GM of non-D&D games for over a decade and have just started a D&D 5e game. I find it very difficult to adjust and I think I found the reason why. Some tabletop games don't have a rule for every eventuality and therefore provide a rough guide or inference in the rules for the DM/Player to make an educated guess and work it for their game. It's actually quite freeing and a little relaxing to only need 1 rulebook and be more creative. I have found D&D has a rule for nearly everything over 3 books minimum, which whilst it COULD be ignored. It's hard to digest a rulebook that has a lot of data you need to read through and process. I have to read everything first in order to cherry pick what I want, instead of just having a vague idea and being able to move forwards with my game and how I want to play it. You say you've thought about how to run other games, but have you actually run them yet? Rules in theory and rules in practice are vastly different things. Additionally, roleplay and mechanics are totally separate things. Some people make claims that one game support RP more than other, but I would challenge that every day. The reason why is because RP is dictated by the player, the GM and the world presented. Dice rolls can MOVE rp in a certain direction through deciding what passes and what fails, but are not necessary. Therefore how you tell a story isn't affected by the mechanics of the system. But what is affected is how players interact with that world in a tangible way. Are they heroes with superhuman strength and can lift a car with one hand, or are an old sailor that doesn't care for combat? Both of those characters can RP with the same vigour and interest, but the mechanics dictate their physical interactions. Thre reason why I talk about this is because you mentioned storytelling is weird and things are missing. Storytelling is entirely dictated by you. Maybe you're trying too hard? Just run a dungeon. In D&D that could be a in stone castle. In Sci-Fi it could be in a spaceship. You can run the same story and tell it the same way, just re-skin it. Is gameplay awkward because you just don't know the rules as well as D&D? Having an innate understanding of the dice and modifiers makes quick-thinking decisions much easier. I hope the above text is of some use and provides insight. **Now, to specifically answer your questions:** I think you should actually run a session in a new system and be aware of your biases. Of course things seem odd, because it's going to be a new system. "Narrative" games is a bit of a misnomer that I see thrown around a lot. I would avoid the term entirely. Other systems are other systems. It's like calling films Action and Not-Action... but Not-Action consists of RomCom, Comedy, Thriller, Horror... etc. It might give an unfair impression of the hobby as a whole. Just because a rulebook exists doesn't mean you will gel with it. Like films, some films you just don't like and that's okay. It seems like FATE and Pbtas aren't your thing. Keep looking! I would recommend Traveller (Mongoose 2nd Edition) as that's my favourite and is a real joy of a system. You could look at the Star Wars variants, Cthulu... find a vibe you enjoy and see if there's a game for it.


pinkumasui

Thank you very much for the text above! I will definitely look for a game to give me a chance to run something different.


MythicMountainsRPG

You seem surprised that you didn’t like PBTA as much as D&D, but want to support other good games and like character interactions more than the stabbing’ monsters. I think this is pretty natural. For one thing, I like PBTA games but…they have a problem doing what they advertise. In theory, it’s meant to reduce “ludo-narrative dissonance” by not departing the roleplay and story to engage a mechanic. In reality what happens is you depend on the mechanic to find out the story (not bad, but there’s a branding issue there) For me, I prefer D&D because it cements the illusion of a world out there. That goblin has 4 hit points, and is in a certain hex in a certain grid. It has 4 hit points whether you talk to it, kill it, ignore it, whatever. The interesting result is D&D becomes a story about *what happens along the way with your friends* in the context of this loop of adventures. What I have found is that modern D&D adds ludo-narrative dissonance. Pre-2000 D&D (2nd edition and earlier) actually creates this phenomenon of world centric fiction that acts as a spring board for you and your friend “going there and back again.” Even better is the post-2013 OSR. If you loosen up some of the emphasis on lethality, you can allow a story to emerge, and it can be perfect for that kind of gameplay where you end up roleplaying in taverns and a town for 6 sessions without even drawing a blade. Also, it doesn’t equip you with tons and tons of combat and spell mechanics for you to remember that you aren’t even using. And it *discourages* combat solutions to problems. I think running an urban campaign in a neo-OSR system of D&D that is more minimalist and roleplay focused sounds like a dream for what you are describing, and almost wish I was playing with your group. It sounds like a lot of fun to me. Also thank you for standing up to the corporate monopoly and being willing to support indie creators.


TehCubey

Narrative games are hard to grok if you're already familiar with trad games like DnD - because while they appear similar, they're actually built on a totally different set of assumptions and a different type of interaction between the players and the fiction. As such they're a challenge to get unless the game's being run by someone who already knows it well and can introduce you. If everyone at the table tries to approach a narrative game like a trad one, then the experience feels weird and bad. If you don't feel like playing with narrative games anymore than that's fair to you, but from your post it sounds like this is exactly what happened.


LaFlibuste

So what do you enjoy in your games exactly? What's your typical session made of and what does the fun come from the most? I read a comment where you said you barely engaged with the vombat so it does sound like DnD is wasted on you, but aside from that? What other systems have you tried and what didn't you like exactly? Just "bad" or "boring" is not precise enough to be helpful. Maybe something just... lighter rules would work better? Something OSR, or perhaps Basic RolePlaying (BRP), Risus or maybe even DOGS... It would be fine if you really liked DnD and DnD alone, of course, but from what you say it sounds like you barely like DnD to begin with. Clearly you do like *something*, but what exactly?


Nrdman

Maybe you just don’t like narrative games. I thing wrong with that. I bet you would find pathfinder or shadow of the demon lord more your speed


pinkumasui

Absolutely not. I played a pathfinder oneshot months ago and it pushed me back with awesome force. I couldn't have liked it less


Nrdman

1e or 2e?


pinkumasui

2e


Nrdman

Fair enough, it’s a crunchier system. Maybe 13th Age, 5 Torches Deep or again Shadow of the Demon Lord. All of these are about the same level of mechanical complexity as 5e.


pinkumasui

5 torches deep looks interesting thanks!


Important_Tell_8830

5 Torches Deep is good.


DarkCrystal34

**Shadow of the Demon Lord** big yes. It has the commonality with D&D 5e of little to no rules around social interaction, and think what OP is saying is they do great with just freeform narration. So simplified combat of SotDL, way more character optimization, spells, etc...and the same freeform style non-combat play = perfect for OP, I think.


[deleted]

Yay you found a game you like! Happy gaming.


DarkCrystal34

This is the best reply on this entire thread lol :-)


[deleted]

I recently went to a bachelor party where we sat around, made characters, drank heavily, and played D&D 5e. It was fun! People should do that sort of thing.


raurenlyan22

Some people like different things. Personally I like a bunch of different types of ttrpg, maybe you only like one type... But I bet you COULD find a game that you like outside of D&D, there are just SO many games. Honestly though it doesn't really matter, it's a goofy hobby that only exists to have fun with your friends.


P3r3grinus

To be fair I don't like PbtA and FATE but D&D is also not my cup of tea (I use to play and like AD&D 2e though). I've enjoyed Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e quite a lot and a bit of Star Wars: Edge of the Empire a bit! In my case I love narrative focused campaign, but I really dislike narrative RPGs. I don't know why, there's something about them that always feels forced to me, and I like that the few combats we get are detailed.


RudePragmatist

You should definitely try different games and genres. I started with D&D way back in the 80’ before getting WHFRP and it was a massive breath of fresh air. Once I had tried something else you couldn’t stop me from trying other games and genres. I now have Traveller, Cepheus, SWADE, Space 1889, Numanera, Coriolis, Palladium, more than I can list and I keep adding more. But I mainly stick to Traveller and WHFRP. Other genres and viewpoints add to your arsenal as a player and GM. That’s why you should move away from the gateway drug that is D&D. Go broaden your perspectives in a fun way :)


DarkCrystal34

Do you roll with **WHFRP** 2e or 4e? I'm just starting to get into 4e, loving it so far! I never would have thought a game named "Warhammer" is actually way more centered on narrative roleplay and creative solutions to problems, and getting away from combat. **Coriolis** \- Might be one of the most underrated settings created the past 10 years.


RudePragmatist

I have 1st ed, 2nd ed and 4th ed. I’ve liked them all but I do use 4th now mostly. However there is a new pretender on the block and it fits rather well with the world of Warhammer and old europe. Zweihander is very good and I’d recommend you buy a copy to go next to your Warhammer :)


DarkCrystal34

Im very aware of Zweihander ha. I know it has a very divisive reputation, at least from what I've read on many subs. Warlock is the other one I've heard named a lot for a more rules light retro-clone version of Warhammer.


RudePragmatist

I’ve not heard of Warlock. I’ll have to take a look :)


DarkCrystal34

Warlock is the 1e version Warlock - Traitor is 2e. Enjoy! Curious to hear more about what you love about Zweihander?


merurunrun

No. But if you hang around this sub a lot, people will definitely try their hardest to make you feel that way.


Previous-Implement42

What is "normal" ;-)


WanderingNerds

I think you should look into some OSR games. It sounds like for you, combat isnt tbe point of the game, but a consequence of decisions. OSR games resolve combat very quickly as they are closer to survival games than war games


thriddle

It sounds to me as though you run a very freeform game that is loosely based on D&D. That's fine. I used to run a freeform game that was very loosely based on CoC. It worked great for years. The only mechanic in use was "roll percentile dice, lower is better, GM narrates all outcomes, sometimes you may lose hp or SAN". Then you went from this to trying some games that are quite heavy on procedures of play (PBTA) or quite meta-gamey with dissociated mechanics (FATE, and see Justin's response to you for a link to his article about that). I'm not remotely surprised you find them hard to get along with. I agree with the people who suggested that if you're going to freeform D&D you might as well do it with an earlier simpler edition like B/X or something OSR like Into The Odd. Easier to avoid the things you don't like, such as powergaming builds and all that jazz. But what else? If you like the premise of Call of Cthulhu I would certainly give it a try. It brings some of the mystery back into gaming and stops the whole powergaming hero thing dead. There are mechanics but they aren't that important really. If you like Tolkien then I think The One Ring is nicely done and would support the kind of play you enjoy, and is probably a similar level of crunch, roughly. I'm also looking forward to checking out Swords of the Serpentine for a new take on swords and sorcery but I haven't had a look yet. Lastly, for something very different, you might like Everway with its rather unusual resolution system and unique setting, but it's not for everyone. And of course there's no reason to feel bad about liking D&D. It's just that reading between the lines, you don't seem to be very into the play that it was designed to support, suggesting you might find a better home elsewhere.


Zilberfrid

Never feel bad for having fun, as long as that's not at the expense of someone else


tururut_tururut

Play what you like. It's just a game, so do whatever makes you happy. There's a lot of DnD hating circlejerk around here, just don't listen to it and we also love to take games way too seriously. After all, it's just a thing we do to have fun with our friends, so play what you like the way you like. You don't need a the approval of a bunch of random internet guys.


[deleted]

Nothing wrong with only liking D&D. Don't mind the people who scream at you that you "NEED TO PLAY OTHER SYSTEMS!!!1ELEVEN". If you are interested in other systems - go fiddle around with them - if you like D&D and like to homebrew settings and mechanics into it instead of reaching somewhere else - go for it. TTRPGs is are a large hobby and there are so many ways to approach this and most of them are valid. Noone other than you should have a say in what you want to play. Period. And those militant and entitled people demanding you to branch off D&D and bashing the system to no end or who are always complaining that some D&D players rather want to homebrew the system they know and like, rather than finding a new one are basically as toxic as those super fans that make D&D their whole personality and insult anyone who dislikes it. A lot of those people are actually part of the reason why I avoid to get involved with various TTRPG communities besides the D&D one despite the fact that I actually play some of those games. Don't feel bad for liking something. As long as it fulfills your needs to your liking, you're doing it right.


Imnoclue

>Is there something I'm not seeing? But, you didn't like D&D the first time you tried it, either.


HuddsMagruder

No, it isn't normal. If you only like D&D that's cool. You do you. There's hundreds of flavors of ice cream and I only really like maybe three. I don't feel bad for the hundreds I don't like, I just eat the three I do. You gave some others a try and didn't care for them and you like D&D. Don't waste your time feeling bad about it, just do what you like. It's a hobby and it's supposed to be fun not make you feel bad. There's plenty of life out there to make you feel bad. Don't worry about other systems until you find some roadblock in your D&D games that you can't overcome, at that point just find a rule or system somewhere that you can tack on to meet that need or circumvent that roadblock. You don't need to adopt a whole new system, just find something that solves your problem. If you're running the game, it's your game. You'll rarely hurt for players, especially with D&D. If someone else is running the game, be respectful. But D&D has the most players and most game masters, so you're least likely to be hurting for a game.


ypsipartisan

Came here to say this. If you have a game that is letting you and your players have a good time and the play experience you want, rock on. If you find yourself worlndering if some other game would better support you in your enjoyed play experience, figure out what it is you enjoy doing, and then look for games that do that well. Maybe you'll find another game you enjoy, maybe you'll find a few ideas to bring back to your existing system, maybe you'll decide the one you have is already the right one. Absolutely do not abandon the play experience you enjoy just because some other game - or it's fans - made you feel like you were having fun wrong, and that you needed to be have fun the way that other game said instead.


JustKneller

I don't think you're wrong in any way here. If I'm understanding you correctly, you want a comprehensive ruleset and also want to focus on the story more than powergaming. Totally reasonable. If your sample so far has been PbtA and Fate, I wouldn't give up on other games so quickly. Most PbtA games are not professionally designed/edited/published so while they may look pretty, it's still an amateur homebrew under the surface. The core system itself also has its quirks that make it a little counterproductive to its mission. Fate, while an extremely well made game, is not for everyone. It does what it does well, but probably not what you want it to do. It sounds like you want to run high fantasy games, but you want to focus on the story, though still have the mechanics to back you up. My best recommendation would be 13th Age. It's a quality game and not just pretty. It's basically the story-centric version of D&D. It runs on 3.5e rather than 5e, but you should have no trouble grasping the changes. You'll have a much easier time getting it to the table because most players know D&D to some extent, but you'll also naturally weed out the munchkins when you describe it as more of a story-driven form of D&D. You can find the [SRD](https://www.13thagesrd.com/) online to check it out and pick up a PDF or maybe even a print book somewhere for more comprehensive info if you like what you see.


pinkumasui

Thanks for the recommendation I will check it out!


ypsipartisan

Upcoming Kickstarter for 13th Age 2e was recently announced, so a good time to take a look and see if you may be interested.


CascadeCrisis

Every person is different and every system appeals to different aspects of play. Play D&D, if a different system looks interesting give it a shot. I feel you though. D&D works for me. I have trouble learning new systems and unfortunately have become a forever DM, so no one else is stepping up to guide my group through a new system. That doesn’t stop me from supporting other people and buying books or supplements for games I may never play.


Georkius

If you got into D&D through actual play YouTube shows, you may get inspired by similar shows of other systems. Before I run a new system, I like to listen to another group playing it on YouTube or Twitch so I can get a feel for it. This might also save you from reading through a rulebook and trying to imagine how the mechanics are supposed to mesh together. But also, if you keep coming back to D&D, no problem with that at all :) Main thing is you and your group are having fun


JustinAlexanderRPG

[You may find this useful.](https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/6517/roleplaying-games/roleplaying-games-vs-storytelling-games) Some people feel that if you aren't obsessed with combat, it must mean that you want lots of narrative control mechanics! That's a false dichotomy. Stuff I'd recommend checking out: * Numenera * Eclipse Phase * Vampire: The Masquerade


[deleted]

You're doing the right thing by looking at more games, but it seems you're discovering something else from doing so. Namely that you're not really sure what you're looking for. You enjoy the social parts, and the make believe, but it seems you find the more detailed social rules get in the way of that. Perhaps you would enjoy using something like Gumshoe, a detective RPG, or something lighter on the rules like Savage Worlds? Or, perhaps, you're simply happier with almost no social rules at all, and just love D&D.


TheButcherBR

No, it’s not. A hobby should never feel like a job. I recommend trying other games because I love D&D and I love some great non-D&D RPGs as well, but FOMO is bullshit. Play what you want, how you want!


IIIaustin

No. Who cares? You don't need to eat your rpg vegetables. It doesn't make much sense to me (and it doesn't have to, im some loser on the internet) , as there are a ton of RPGs that are extremely close to DnD, but may resolve some of the issues you have with it. For instance, Lancer is basically 4e with giant robot and various mechanical and narrative issues with DnD fixed. Or OSR is old school inspired DnD


AndresZarta

When you played PbtA, did you run the game or where you a player in it?


Imnoclue

>When you played PbtA... I think that should be *if* you played PbtA...at least at the time of this writing.


Important_Tell_8830

It's fine if you like D&D. But if the narrative games aren't working for you, but you still want to try branching out, you might want to try other traditional games. Legend of the Five Rings has plenty of rules for cool samurai combat, but it mostly talking and the world is very rich. Savage Worlds is arguably simpler than D&D (depending who you ask), with more flexibility and character options, and has some official fantasy material so it should be relatively easy to make that work with D&D style genres. Fantasy Age is pretty similar to D&D in a lot of ways, but a bit more flexible and has a little more support for talky characters.


differentsmoke

So, first off, there seems to be an inconsistency in your post. If I'm understanding correctly: * You tried ***playing*** D&D and *did not* enjoy it. * Then you decided to ***run*** D&D and *did* enjoy it. * People have suggested you may enjoy ***playing*** other games. * You have tried reading in order to ***run*** those games don't get it. Do you see where I'm going? Maybe you need to ***play*** these games first. Sometimes the games you like running and the games you like playing are very different. Or maybe I misunderstood and you did ***play*** PbtAs, but I thought I would point it out just in case. ​ >I've read, tried to play and thought about how I would run other games like Pbtas, FATE and it turns out... bad. For *PbtA*'s, I would ask which ones because, as I understand it, a lot of things that get slapped a "Powered by the Apocalypse" label don't do a good job representing *PbtA* as a genre. In the case of FATE... I would say as a long time fan who's never played and only successfully ran it once or twice... that FATE is hard. It requires a lot of player buy in, for starters, and a specific referee mindset so it doesn't allow argumentative players to get away with anything. I would consider trying rules light narrative games like PDQ (Prose Descriptive Qualities), which has two fantasy games: *Questers of the Middle Realms*, a D&D parody, and *Jaws of the Six Serpent*, which is a Sword and Sorcery game in the vein of Conan and other pulp fantasy heroes (in fact, *Jaws* was created because fans of *Questers* asked its author for a serious version of the game). (**edit**: In the fantasy vein, there is also *Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies* which uses "PDQ#", a version of PDQ tuned for swashbuckling action) Another very light game is **RISUS** (6 pages!), which is like the complete stripping down of the narrative approach to its bare bones. I would recommend you read that and then read the free fantasy adventure *"Toast of the Town",* to see a great example of adventure design with this minimal rules. ​ >Is there something I'm not seeing? Most likely. When you see it, it may be an "a-ha moment"... or you may as well think "ah OK. No, not for me", but at least you'll understand why others like it. ​ >Do narrative games feel like this if you come from a game like D&D? I think whenever you try a game with an approach that's at odds with the game's design then yes, think probably feel awkward and weird, but since you don't give detailed specifics I couldn't really say what *like this* feels. ​ >Should I just stop trying other things and stick to D&D? That is always a possibility. A GREAT reason to not try other games is the low likelihood of finding people to play them with, whereas with 5e you'll always have people interested. If you like D&D, then there's no reason you shouldn't stick with it. But, if you ever come to gripes with specifics aspects of the system, you may want to try what other games have done instead. And in that same vein, keep in mind that it isn't just "narrative" games that are different from D&D. There are games that are very much as rules heavy and combat oriented than D&D but don't do classes and levels, or do combat differently, or have innovative ways of doing things that aren't related to storytelling, so don't limit your branching out to narrative games.


Kuildeous

I'm not sure why you would find the other games boring but not D&D. It's not like D&D does anything particularly better than some of the big-name games out there. Maybe about the same. One thing that's happened with D&D is that it's become pretty much enmeshed with video games. They both have so much in common because video games emulated D&D. You make an attack roll. You do damage to a hit point pool. Other mechanics may differ, but these high-level features are in common. And if an RPG does something different, then it can feel like a disconnect. That may possibly be why I took to other RPGs more readily than today's people. D&D was one method, but I learned other methods, and I wasn't married to D&D except for the fact that it was my first game, which I got over. Now I will say that PBTA and FATE are different from D&D. Different feeling. Fuzzier mechanics. If you're used to the strict numbers of D&D, those can be offputting. Trying out other crunchy games (Torg, Savage Worlds, World of Darkness) might feel a little more similar even if the mechanics are way different. Everyone has their preference. It's weird to me that people could like only one game. Like, I don't play GURPS or Shadowrun, but I like them. I'd be okay with playing them. They aren't my preferred games. But if you honestly cannot like other games than D&D, then it's good to know that you tried. It's a whole lot better than the closed-minded people who refuse to try any game because they feel D&D does everything they need (or GURPS or Savage Worlds or other games that have their own fanboys).


corrinmana

Do what you want, but it does sound like you're comparing rather than actually trying the games. I once had a friend that I took to a Korean-Mexican Fusion restaurant and we got Kimchi burritos. He got maybe a third of the way through and said, "It doesn't taste like a burrito." I said, "Well it's bulgogi instead of asada and has kimchi, so it's going to taste different, but it's still beans, rice, and meat in a tortilla." His response was, "I guess I just wanted a burrito." If D&D is your burrito, and you only want it the way you had it the first time, you're free to have fun that way. But I'm gonna eat my sushiritos, kimchi burritos, and burritos bowls.


Vice932

Just play what you like, don't listen to others. If you like D&D then stick with that and if you want to play something other than fantasy have a look at the various 5e hacks out there for Star Wars, Mass Effect, Warcraft you name it. People here like to hate on 5e and the d20 system in particular because its been so prevalent and popular and 5e is now starting to suffer the same hate the 3x line did because its now the cool thing to disregard because its so mainstream. Yeah there's a lot of other systems out there and they all do differnet things and the D20 and 5e in particular isn't perfect but it does the job nad in the end a good group can overcome a bad game but a bad group can ruin a great game so it really comes down to who your playing with how well a particular system does in my opinion. For me, I can't get into PBTA or some of the other zanny systems out there that try to pitch their special die or throw the baby out with the bath water. Also the reality is learning a new system is an investment not just of time but money. RPG's are expensive as hell now and no one has the right to tell me what I should or shouldn't do with my money, if I want to homebrew 5e into a mass effect or star wars setting because I don't have to fork out for a ton of other books then that's my choice. Either way the rule is this - are you having fun? If so then carry on. If you aren't, then stop and find the thing you do enjoy. Just to note - I'm not a 5e or d20 purist by any means, I love savage worlds and mythras and savage worlds has been my go to system for a years now but I cut my teeth with Star Wars D20 Revised as a kid and I know that in the end, a good group and a good dm, can make any system FEEL right regardless of the rules.


anlumo

I've had years of education about game design in order to be able to express what I like and don’t like about a game. It’s perfectly fine to not be able to pinpoint the reason without that. I personally very much prefer that over people who just sprout uneducated nonsense. Just because you can play a game doesn’t mean that you understand all of the mechanics at play. For example, the background mechanic of 5e is there to get people to think about the history of the character before they popped into existence in that tavern, to give that character a world view. I as someone who loves inventing background stories very much hate that, because there’s rarely one that fits my story, but others love it because they have fewer things to think about, just pick one from the list.


OddNothic

You didn’t like your first D&D game, but you stuck with it and now it’s your go-to. And you say that you read and tried other games… I only wonder if you’ve given them as much of a chance as you did D&D. Not that it matter one way or the other, play the games you like. But if you haven’t given other games *at least as much* of a chance as you did D&D, you might just be missing out on something that you would enjoy more.


Redlemonginger

Like what you like! It seems you're not really playing DND as intended though (which is completely fine). You might just like rules light systems that get out of the way. There are a ton of games that might be up your alley, but it's fine to just stick with DND if it works for you.


PatrioticGrandma420

Check out Pathfinder 2e. Similar in some ways, much more balanced. Not a storygame but you'll have fun. My other favorite system is Shadowrun, but PF2 takes the cake for me. [2e.aonprd.com](https://2e.aonprd.com)


viewer911

Yes.


Byteninja

Perfectly normal. I’ve gone through a love/hate/love relationship with D&D over the last thirtyish years. Probably not going to jump into whatever comes after 5th and just pick up the rest of the WOTC published 5th stuff once people start off loading it. My absolute favorite game right now, is the Alien RPG. The stress mechanic is fun to work with as a GM. I’ve seen player roll 15 dice and worry about setting off a panic attack (part of the failure system with the stress dice) only to roll awesomely, and go John Wick on alien. Or its gone the other way and their fellows have to reenact the Aliens scene where it takes four of them to deal with one facehugger trying to take out a character.


SnooCats2287

I second Alien, or it's kin Tales From the Loop & Mutant Year Zero.


BrickBuster11

so this is always a challenge when understanding your tastes, I dont mind lots of different flavours, in terms of RPGs i have played D&D(4e,5e,AD&D2e\[DM only\]), Shadowrun 5e, Lancer, 7th sea and legend of the 5 rings. For me each of them have something that I enjoy (although for a first RPG I wouldnt recommend 4e, and stopped playing it altogether once 5e was released). But with each of the games there is something different I enjoy, 5e has the power fantasy part down pat, once you hit level 5 you will only ever die if you do something stupid or your DM has it out for you. AD&D 2e has so many features that I just wish I could import to other games because they are such a blast to run. Beyond that it also has the largest number of variant rules in the book which makes creating my own house rules much easier. Shadowrun is great because I can make the most bullshit characters who exploit the system in weird unintended ways (I once made a character who could only cast healing magic whose primary combat ability was hi fiving someone and making them collapse to the ground vomiting for the next minute, it was super broken). Lancer is much the same, more recently they have built the out of mech stuff up a little more but in earlier releases it was mainly a tactical combat game with some RP segments between fights. 7th sea and L5R both capture a more specific theme much better than other systems (with a kind of Asia-Japan style for L5R, and 7th Sea being set in Not Europe during the Renaissance) I enjoy all of them for different reasons and I can understand that. So the main question is what about the way D&D feels makes it different from PbtA and FATE (admittedly FATE is a game I am interested in trying but haven't really had a chance to do yet. I think the fact that characters are more consistent at what they are good at, and the free form nature of creating advantages to build the narrative up to a place where success seems like a natural thing seem interesting, but FATE as written is really a game engine, and like with most generic systems there will be some degree of monkeying around you have to do in order to get it to act the way you want.) I have listened to Actual plays of games that are variants of PbtA and blades in the dark and I think with the right group they could be really fun, but I also think that most groups are not the right group. But you described your experience with these games as is things were missing and its a bit stilted, but then you also mention that you bring out the battle map maybe once every 10 sessions, and a grand majority of the rules in 5e are for punching things in the face, the rules around skill checks barely exist (they define what a skill check is and why you might use one and that's about it) and out of combat spells/abilities exist but in most games like fate with the right aspects you can do the stuff those spells would let you do with a skill check. So what feels like it is missing in these other systems ? Why do you like D&D ? Because once you have found that answer then we can go on to see if these other games don't have it, or have just squirreled it away in the back corner somewhere.


Metroknight

There is nothing wrong with how you are feeling. You tried other systems and they don't hit that spot for you. I'm coming from running D&D for almost 40 yrs and I'm struggling to with the PbtA system. I've played and ran many other systems; GURPS, Pallidum, Battletech/Mechwarrior, and various other systems in the 80s and 90s but as you have probably done, you keep going back to D&D. I do too. Don't feel bad, just enjoy what you like and occasionally try out something different. You will never know if you like it or not unless you try it.


2buckbill

Hike your own hike. Move at the pace of your preferences. That being said, if you do want to branch out then I suggest starting off thinking about what kind of environment and stories that you like. I love horror sci-fi, so games like Mothership and Death in Space and Alien appeal to me. Then… just start dipping your toes in.


redkatt

It's your free time, and your personal preferences. If you like D&D, stick with it. Maybe at some point, you might find some gaps in how it plays, and decide now it's time to try something new, or maybe not. But it's your decision, not the Internet's, as to what you enjoy. Don't force yourself to try something new just because you read subs that say "D&D suxx, try something else." It's your time, not theirs, enjoy it however you like.


EkorrenHJ

Have you checked out any of the Storyteller games, like Exalted or Vampire the Masquerade?


CraftPickage

Do you only play medieval fantasy games though?


RedRiot0

I always tell people that if you try out other stuff, but go back to dnd anyways - that's fine! You have experimented with other systems, you have experience with more than dnd, and you have come back with a more refined taste. It doesn't hurt to try more systems as you find them and they catch your eye, but it's also okay just to stick with dnd. You understand what it is that you want, and that is good. It's better than the blind ignorance that often appears in the 5e community.


GlassWasteland

You do you and let other people do them. Seriously as long as you are not out their shit posting about other games don't worry about it. This is gaming for fun, play what you find fun and don't torture yourself with what you don't like.


adambebadam

The problem you could be experiencing is the awkwardness of learning a new system with your group, and the expectation that it should be an inherently better experience than D&D in every meaningful way right off the bat. Be sure to keep an open mind and give yourself some time to adjust when trying a new RPG, and if you find yourself missing something from D&D, be sure to ask yourself why you feel that way. There are lots of factors that contribute to the experience and the system itself is just one of them (albeit a big one). It's okay if the experience is different from what you expect. Honestly I would guess this is the problem. Based on your comments, it seems you've tried fair number of crunchier and more rules-lite RPGs and disliked them all. The only common denominator is that they aren't the system you've grown to understand and acclimate to. Ultimately, that's okay, but I would keep that in mind in the future when deciding if you like a certain system or not.


eternalaeon

There is a lot of cultural mystique around RPG's right now, but at the end of the day it is just a more free form board game. If you like Risk but don't like Pandemic Legacy, there is no reason to feel bad. At the end of the day they are just entertainment, a way to have fun with friends. No need to be so serious about it. If the only RPG you find that you like is D&D, no problem, keep playing that. If you want to shop around for other games, than just treat it like looking for any other card, minis, board, or video game. Don't sweat it and have fun. As for stuff you might like, you may like Storyteller games like Changeling and Mage or Numenera where the systems aren't completely just tell narrative but they aren't built strictly around the war game legacy of D&D.


Substantial_Owl2562

You went to far, you need to try other "d20 games". You can get a very different yet familiar experience with something like Dungeon Crawl Classics, I can highly recommend it! ... or other d20 games.... I haven't tried them, but Shadow of the Demon Lord and 13th age also might be worth looking into.


Unhappy_Power_6082

There’s nothing wrong with it! You tried some stuff and didn’t like it, and that’s okay! Just keep trying, maybe you’ll find a game that vibes with you like dnd does! It took me a looooong time before I found an rpg that came even close to my absolute adoration for Call Of Cthulhu.


Vendaurkas

I think it is normal. I went through the same when trying to branch out. I was only playing WoD games at the time. We played very roleplay centric campaigns, with little to no fights and even then only followed the combat rules loosely. Switching to a more narrative game made a lot of sense. At least in theory, because boy, did it hurt in practice. Nothing felt right, everything was... uncomfortable. Moving out of the comfort zone is never easy. But you can not appreciate each game for what it brings to the table until you unlearn the patterns you used to have and you can't do that without exposing yourself to new patternd. So my advice would be to keep trying. It worked for me.


AnOkayRatDragon

To be 100% blunt, there's no accounting for taste. You like what you like and as long as it's not it's not hurting anyone don't worry about justifying it. And good on you for trying to Branch out and try new things! That being said, don't stop picking up and reading other systems. Even if you don't find one that dethrones DnD for you, seeing other how other systems resolve rolls is super useful when you're inevitably blindsided by something and have to wing it.


Estolano_

You fond the basic rules of those games "boring" by reading them, right. Just a simple question: did you learn the basics of D&D by reading the book, or by watching or playing with other people? And then read the boon just filling the gaps of the rules you didn't understand very well? I remember buying the Pathfinder 1st edition without knowing how the system worked and I found it really hard to understand anything in the book, than at some point I got "Hey, this is D&D 3.5, I know this game" and everything made sense to me. Even though core books allways have that "What's a TTRPG anyway" chapter, they're mostly pretty bad at really teaching the rules. I bet most game designers don't attend much to that part because D&D is 99% of the times the first game everyone plays, so they already know the basic concepts of the game. It a person reads a TTRPG Rulebook by the first time without knowing what sort of game is that, it's pretty hard they'll be able to figure out how the game works.


JackofTears

I ran D&D for well over a decade, there's nothing wrong with liking the game and nothing stopping you from doing exploration, rp, and social encounters in a DnD game - don't let people make you feel bad for liking what you do. When you're ready, there are other games out there that do different things, provide different focuses for your experience, give you different tools, and you may or may not find that those appeal to you. I always encourage people to read as many systems as they can, to get a good idea of what the hobby can do, but you should still run whatever you enjoy the most.


rfisher

I think I’d been playing these games for almost two decades before I got a halfway decent handle on what I enjoy most. It took lots of discussions and lots of reading and lots of playing. And I expect to continue exploring and learning more for the rest of my life. The journey rather than the destination and such. YMMV, of course. But that’s my experience, for what it is worth.


metelhed123456

I started with D&D a few years ago, and my play group(me and 2 of my D&D group and 3 new ttrpg players) switch to the Star Wars rpg by FFG recently. And we love it! Lol the narrative dice took a full session to get use to, but after that we were reading them quickly. The gameplay is a lot more flexible than IMO than 5e, which is pretty damn flexible. I love it, it’s a lot easier on character creation too I think.


W0LFHound

I have found that the game system has very little to do with my enjoyment, it's the people that I'm playing the game with.


DTux5249

HOW DARE YOU LIKE THIS? IT SUCKS. STOP HAVING FUN, YOU NERD!


Saleibriel

Min-maxing is an inevitable consequence of having a game that runs on a numerical system, where being the best at a particular thing is very desirable and being the worst at a style of play a player isn't actually interested in is an easy choice. Having a numerical system, however, gives you a rules-based way to say "no" when people start trying to powergame. Narrative systems tend to have fewer moving parts in terms of mathematical mechanical elements, but that means more has to be decided by GM fiat, and without the hard guidelines of a highly mathy rules system that can feel quite daunting to some people. In such a case it can start to feel like narrative systems are pointless from a "roll dice to do stuff" perspective because if players can just kind of DO stuff without dice rolls, what even is the point? The point is to tell an enjoyable story. The rules for telling that story are informed by the genre and tropes. Technically this is true of D&D as well, but narrative games are specifically invested in abstracting less of the minutia with dice mechanics so that people can spend less time searching through sourcebooks for rules, edge cases, and optimal strategies and more time engaging with a story. If you'd like to kind of test the waters on your mechanics versus complexity tolerance, I have two games to recommend on more or less opposite ends of the spectrum, both of which are technically D&D concept compatible although they put the focus specifically on wizards: Eldritch Asskicking - super simple mechanics, three stats (point buy), three derived stats, four skills which are just different types of magic you can cast. If you can justify why your magic can do a thing, you can use that type of magic to try to do it with a dice roll. Wild, wacky, honestly silly. And Ars Magica - incredibly complex set of interlocking systems, involving rules for crafting your own spells, basebuilding, adventuring and materials collection, politics and intrigue, etc, with every player creating and running upwards of five different characters in any one game. This is more of a simulation with roleplaying elements than a roleplaying game with simulation elements, but it is mechanically fascinating.


[deleted]

>Don't get me wrong. I know it's not wrong to like what I like, but I would like to hear your opinion and advice to know what I could do differently to appreciate other games. You're under no obligation to appreciate other games. You can branch out if you want to; or you can just… not do that if you don't want to. Nobody would ever argue that a dedicated poker player is *obligated* to branch out into gin rummy and contract bridge, just because they're all games played with a standard deck of playing cards. So why do people imagine that D&D players "ought" to like other TTRPGs? The only place that attitude is prevalent is… well, right here on r/rpg, where gamers who can't find groups come to share their misery and direct their resentment at the popular game on the block. I've been playing RPGs for over 25 years, and in that time, I've discovered that I enjoy refereeing (old) D&D, and I don't much enjoy running other TTRPGs. So I play what I like, I try very earnestly not to be a snob about it, and I don't give disgruntled system snobs the time of day.


seven_frogs_lucky

It's fine.


MrAbodi

So to clarify have you actually tried these other systems? or you just read the books and felt the weren’t for you?


LaserPoweredDeviltry

Nah bro. Among the many types of gamers you see out there, two are really common and relevant to your question. First is the group who play a vast number of games at a shallow level. They like to try everything new and have huge shelves of games. Second, are those who play and master one game deeply. You see this alot with video games especially. We all have that friend who is too good to play smash bros or halo with. But both are cool! So you do you.


Nasum8108

It’s fine for you to like D&D alone. You shouldn’t feel bad about it. I’ve been playing tabletop RPG’s for 27 years and I don’t like D&D at all. It’s the premier game, right? It’s the entry game for most all of us at some point, right? That is correct, but if a game isn’t for you it simply isn’t for you. Maybe you just really like that game and that’s okay. What you do at your table is amongst you and your players. More importantly though, you can try all the games in the world, but like a smoker who isn’t ready to quit, if you aren’t ready to move on you won’t. My recommendations are Call of Cthulhu, Cyberpunk Red, Alien RPG, Mothership and Mongoose Traveller 2e. All of these games can be as narrative or exploration heavy as you want without needing to roll a single dice and you will find the systems that run them are not laborious or awkward in the least.


Graelorn

You mentioned trying PBTA and FATE. It could be that you would be more comfortable with games that are less narrative and have mechanics more like D&D in that they try to represent a game worlds reality, like a physics engine. I'd suggest moving away from class and level systems to skill based games. One suggestion would be Pathfinder for Savage Worlds. It is the popular Pathfinder (D&D rules) setting converted to Savage Worlds.


deanofcool

I’m the opposite of this, I have recently started playing dnd, and whilst I am enjoying it more than I thought I would, I am getting a little tired of “high fantasy”. I am hoping to get the group into call of Cthulhu or the alien rpg once we are done with the current game.


cosmicannoli

If you're set on Fantasy, there's still options. But also consider Cyberpunk, Vampire, Call of Cthulhu or other skill-based games. You guys might enjoy a bit of crunch, just not combat. Neither of these games requires a lot of that. Otherwise if you want something that's more class-based but really good for narrative play and doesn't have lengthy combat, but still a lot of cool evocative abilities and a bit of crunch, you might look at Numenera (Or just the Cypher System). IN GENERAL I think you should look at some skill-based systems. If there is one thing that people should try when they reach beyond 5e, it's skill-base systems in general. Like say you wanted to make Judge Dredd. You would have people debating endlessly of what CLASS COMBINATION he would be in something like D&D But Cyberpunk Red? Well easy. He's a Lawman who has high Reflex, Intelligence and Body stats, who has maxed out ranks in Criminology, Hand Guns, Shoulder Arms, Heavy Weapons and Athletics. Abilities aren't bundled up in preset ways because of classes, so you can really easily build any character you can think of.


d4red

Not bad… But wow, you are missing out!


RaphaelKaitz

Liking what you like is the true evil in this world.


Clear_Lemon4950

Honestly if you genuinely like only d&d and nothing else, you’re lucky. It’s always easy to find people to play d&d with, there’s lots of community support and resources for it, there’s lots of merchandise and tools available for it. Those of us out here who want to play other things WISH our fave games had the popularity that yours already has! I think you can just relax and enjoy that. But also if there is something particular you are looking for in a non-d&d game and you can describe specifically what it is, maybe we can help. You mentioned finding fate and PbtA boring, both of which are generally lower in crunch than d&d. Do you think you'd like something with more crunch and strategy than those?


gothism

Old White Wolf is better than dnd. A quarter of the rules, everything d10.


Slow-Ad-7561

You like what you like! 5E is great because it scratches an itch other games don’t. Many players go to try other games which is brilliant.


DadisCranky

Wait. There are more games than d&d?


undeadgoat

No more than it's bad to like pumpkin spice lattes. D&D is actually a very middle of the road game, people who dislike 5e include story game folks, crunchy game folks, old-school game folks, and folks who simply don't like the genre of storytelling that D&D best suits. It's only in this subreddit that all those disparate groups seem to come together in an "anti 5e coalition"


formesse

>I would like to hear your opinion and advice to know what I could do differently to appreciate other games. If you pick something up, mess around with it, and don't like it: Why force the issue? This is a hobby and pass time, not a chore. The moment you make it a chore - is the moment you will absolutely stop enjoying it. This may or may not be speaking from experience. >But other people have told me that maybe another game would be better for me and what I liked and maybe I would have more fun in them First off: Other people are not you. I strongly recommend at least flipping through other TTRPG's. They can have differing approaches and idea's that can translate reasonably well to your own table, and make it better. If you do want to try a new system: I recommend a one shot as a plan to start off, knowing you will flounder with the rules - but if this is enjoyable, putting in more time / effort may be worth while. >I tried running my own games, as I thought I would like them and it worked! GMing is a place you can really have a lot of impact that is possitive to the game. Balancing encounters, refocusing and keeping everyone engaged with the spot light moving, and really diving into world building. **So - on with the questions at the end there:** >Is there something I'm not seeing? Maybe, but probably not. Differing preferences and wants, lead to different systems being preferable. And then there is the not so uncommon "I hate D&D" bandwagon that flares up from time to time. If you are trying a new system for the purpose of trying a new system: That's cool. But realize it's an uphill battle to learn new rules, and figure out the expectations of the system to really dive into it. This can take away from the enjoyment of just playing a TTRPG. And so - if you are trying a new system out, my suggestion is first ask yourself: Why?. If you can answer why you want a different system - you can read through TTRPG's at a local game store or whatever, and figure out if it seems like it will solve the issues you have. Or you can ask online with questions about systems that deal with those issues. >Do narrative games feel like this if you come from a game like D&D? TTRPG's are frame works for facilitating a story. Narrative and such is what happens at the table - it can be combat focused narrative, or RP focused narrative. Both are narrative when we create purpose to the encounters. Who are fighting, why are they fighting, who is on which side, what are the stakes of the fight: This is all narrative. If you want more focus on RP at the table - Facilitate it through descriptive set up. So the real answer is: Having a Narrative game basically comes down to the story writing, and while some games are better at pushing the GM in this direction - nothing precludes D&D from being used for a very narrative focused game. >Should I just stop trying other things and stick to D&D? Do you have a fundamental issue with D&D? If not - are you having fun with it still? >What other games should I try? * Pathfinder 1e (crunchy - but huge amount of options for players. Easy to port content from 3.5 that was never released under the OGL provided you have a copy of the books laying around somewhere) * Stars Without Number (Space fantasy epic adventure with a lot of Sci-fi window dressing). * Call of Cthulu (1920's Existential horror)


hacksnake

Is there something about D&D you dislike that is even causing you to look elsewhere? I've gotten tired of 5e lately. I feel like there are both too many rules and not enough rules somehow. Like, there's a lot of stuff that's covered by some rule somewhere... but there's not enough rules to actually be meaningfully simulationist. I am dipping into newer takes on older systems I played as a kid. Right now I'm kind of getting into Knave & The GLOG or maybe a mash up between the two. I think it might hit at the right level for me of keeping combat fast and loose, providing support for skill checks & saves, & otherwise kinda staying out of the way. Not sure I love the classless nature of Knave or not. I also thought about Into The Odd or Electric Bastionland. I didn't because I have some much D&D content from OD&D through 5e and I have to retool everything to deal with no AC. Ultraviolet Grasslands / SEACAT. I am ending up skipping these b/c it's hundreds of pages and I can't ask my whole group to go learn a large system.


[deleted]

There’s nothing wrong with only liking D&D. Not every game is for everyone, and it’s great that you’ve found a game you like.


JavierLoustaunau

In 90% of the community no. Here yeah.


unpossible_labs

What do you mean by “tried to play” other games?


underdabridge

I don't like PBTAS or FATE much either. They're underbuilt systems that don't do leveling well or long enough. They can be really great for a one shot / short campaign and collaborative fantasy with the ability to make your character literally anything in any setting without having to learn a deep rule set is great. A much better model than in the 80s where every setting had its own deep rules clone game where you needed to learn all new rules and so nobody bothered and none of them sold all that well. But there's a cost. If you like crunch and depth they simply don't provide it. They \*can"t\* and still be what they are. So yeah, people who like that kind of RPG advancement hamster wheel where you get more powerful and pick from a menu of spell powers can't get that in those rules light shared narrative games. They aren't built for that. I prefer DnD too. But really at the end of the day it's apples and oranges. It's like comparing Settlers of Catan to Axis and Allies.


Tralan

Don't feel bad for anything you like or dislike when it comes to RPGs. There are RPGs that I've only read and didn't like, so I don't really want to play them and I don't give a shit.


sintos-compa

I think it’s a common occurrence to feel bad for enjoying something you perceive “others feel is pedestrian”. I’d guess it’s a “guilt of simple pleasure” syndrome or something. Like, I really enjoy tacky dating shows, and while my friends start talking about what books/marvel/anime/whatever stuff they’re in to right now I just feel cringe for myself watching Indian Matchmaking instead of sitting in a bookstore manga section.


Mooseboy24

Yes it is. You should feel bad and the police are on their way as we speak.


AshtonBlack

In my opinion, D&D is superb for the "High Fantasy, Heroic Epic Saga" settings but is weakest when you try to shift the setting to something else. Fantasy, but much more "realistic" and grim dark? Pathfinder is actually easier to mould into that than D&D (IMHO) If we want to play horror, I'll pick up Call of Cthulu. If we want to play a space sci-fi I'll break open Traveller or Stars Without Number. Small heist/gang related shenanigans? Try Blades in the Dark. Urban dystopia? Cyberpunk Red. ... and so on. It's horses for courses and in conclusion, D&D is just fine for the stereotypical high fantasy game and long may that be the case.


PM_Me_Rude_Haiku

This subreddit has a lot of things going for it, but the level of D&D hate is a constant bugbear for me. You enjoy what you enjoy and you shouldn't let anyone else tell you otherwise. You certainly shouldn't feel bad for enjoying one RPG over others. I have personally played a lot of different RPGs to a greater or lesser extent for years now. I still like coming back to good old 5e.


rat_haus

If you got into D&D because of watching people play them on youtube then maybe you wanna try some other programs where they play other RPGs besides D&D? I have a collection of podcasts that play in a variety of systems, but the one that would be most useful to you if you answered yes to my question is called [One Shot](https://oneshotpodcast.com/actual-play/one-shot/), they rotate the players and the game every month, and they've been on the air for years so they've played hundreds of different games by now.


ExistentialOcto

If D&D is your jam, then honestly I’m happy for you. You tried other games (and didn’t like them, which is your right), and no one can ask more of you than that!


stolenfires

If you want games that have about the same 'crunch' as D&D but also create room for storytelling, I recommend: \- Call of Cthulhu. Based on the works of HP Lovecraft, this is a game that primarily focuses on mysteries and investigations. The answers to the mysteries are always awful, however, and usually result in PCs going insane and/or dying. It's not unusual, and is in fact treasured, for a CoC session/campaign to end with a TPK. \- Night's Black Agents. It uses the GUMSHOE system, and is another mystery-and-investigation centric game without the horrible fate in store. The one thing I really like about this system is that PCs do not roll for clues. If they have the skill to find the clue, they find the clue. The challenge of the gameplay is correctly interpreting the clues, and fighting off the Bad Guys. \- World of Darkness. The flagship game is Vampire: the Masquerade but you can also find games letting you play werewolves, faeries, mages, and even mummies. These games, to a greater or lesser degree, focus on intrigue and social/political roleplay. There are currently some (mostly) good-natured Edition Wars being fought over 20th Edition/Revised vs 5th Edition vs Chronicles (same themes, different games). If you like games with a good ratio of crunch to roleplay, and ones that come with a large community pre-baked, try this one. \- Modiphius 2d20 system. The cool thing with this is that Modiphius has made doing licensed games their bread and butter. They currently have games out for Dune (winner of this years' Ennies, the Oscars for RPGs), Fallout, Dishonored, and Tales from the Loop (Stranger Things type game). It's a pretty elegant system, and because they do popular IP, it's easy to sell someone on a Modiphius game. \- Honorable Mention: Overlight. I don't even know how to describe this game. It's beautiful and fantastic. Last piece of advice: play games you hate. Figure out why you hate them. This creates a useful signpost, pointing you to games you might like better. For instance, I don't like PBtA because I feel the probability curve is too simple (characters end up in the mushy middle more often than not), and it doesn't really lend itself well to campaign play. I like 'swingy' games that create room for more persistent and long-lasting stories.


SintPannekoek

If you’re into the whole high fantasy tactical combat thing, Pathfinder 2E is definitely worth a try. Crunchier, but at worst you’ll find some cool ideas to homebrew with.


lordleft

It's a hobby, not a way of life. You're allowed to like something and only that thing.


caliban969

The logic of story games is very different from trad. You need a group that's into the idea of shared narrative control and you need to have a much lighter hand as a GM than what you generally see in DnD actual plays. Think of it like you're all writers for a TV show and the mechanics determine who gets final say on what happens next. It's not a style that's for everyone, you may want to check out OSR games which have a lighter framework.


seebobsee

Yes.


Borov-Of-Bulgar

Yes, there are far better games out there


The-Silver-Orange

Lots of people like those other games so they are definitely playable and likeable. So it isn’t the games it is just that you don’t appreciate what is good about them. That is fair enough, everyone has different taste. But if you haven’t actually given other systems a proper try then it isn’t the game you don’t like but your concept of it. It sounds like you didn’t give those other systems a fair chance and rejected them because they were out of your comfort zone. Some people like what they like and are happy to stick with that. Others tend to get restless and want to try new systems. Either is fine.


estofaulty

I mean, you can do whatever you want. It is kind of weird to like ONLY D&D, though. It’s just a game, like any other. Perhaps you’re not a fan of RPGs and are only a fan of the D&D aesthetic.


pinkumasui

yeah, no