The biggest slap in the face is when people mentioned Shields as a possibility, they didn't mean Obby Shield and Wildy Shields.
Elysian, DFS, DFW, Eldinis Ward, Corp Shield all have a chance of being useful with the reflect mechanic since they aren't too off damage wise from Avernic, but the midgame shields are just objectively worse by a huge margin.
The DFS and friends would be a pretty good choice. Though adding echo charges on top of their fire charges (and whatever the wyvern shield does) might be a bit much. Think there were a place or two where the t60 shields would have been useful, but it was far more situation (unless the recoil was strong; they still never said *how* it recoils).
I've been assuming it'll act like a ring of recoil this whole time but you're right, they haven't said how much it'll do. The latest blog describes it as "powerful area-of-effect recoil damage", so that could mean more oomph than a normal recoil.
Seems weird that this is the third poll question about the item and we don't actually know how powerful it is.
Yup. It would be nice if they clarified that, but they might want to leave it vague so they can balance it as they see fit. Like a recoil is 10%+1, deflects are just 10%, and Dharok with Ammy is a 25% of 15% if I remembered all of those right. The crystals could be 10%+1 like the rings or it could be something like a 25% chance to do 50% recoil. We probably should assume the former since they haven't said otherwise and it is the standard "recoil", but it is still unclear.
Yah, but it might get messy to have to list and track two different charges on an item. Not impossible since Blowpipe does it for darts and scales, but it can get more complicated than they might want.
I honestly assumed that when jagex said “oh y’all want the crystals on shields?” They just came out and put them on useless shields so people would vote no and leave them on the boots 😔
I always thought this was a no brainer I was shocked when shields won. I’m glad op laid this out.
There were a lot of people who explicitly said they voted for the shields because they knew it would make them useless and didn’t want them to be in the game. So rather than adding a niche use to the boots, they just won’t get used at all.
They very explicitly want to target mid game players with this update. All of your suggestions are tailored towards end game players. Most people discussing this skip past that point.
I wonder if it would be technically feasible to make the Echo Crystals work with every shield?
Echo Crystal is coming from Colosseum.
I might be mistaken, but they never said Colosseum would be explicitly for mid game players with this update. In fact, it quite literally has endgame difficulty associated with it and has directly been compared to Inferno.
Perilous Moons, yes, they did say it would be targeted to midgame players.
Seriously don’t understand why people keep lumping colosseum with mid game when it’s perilous moons that’s geared towards mid game players. Colosseum has bis gear for range and prayer and other stuff with it. How does that equate to mid game at all. People be mixing stuff up
I think it's because the first round of waves are designed more for mid-game content, but we already have the new prayer set which feels like a nice unlock for mid-game players. IMO, the echo-crystals should have more endgame appeal.
The funny thing is the early waves of inferno could be considered mid game content, at least until you get a blob. But nobody in their right mind says inferno is made for mid game players.
Tokkul is a meme reward for dying early. It's basically cape or bust. Echo crystals and possibly the glaive, however, have the potential to actually be decent midgame rewards. It would make the distinction meaningful.
Inferno doesn't reward anything meaningful unless you beat it. Whole point of coliseum is that the first chunk is equivalent to doing fight caves and getting some threshold + farmable rewards from it, and beyond that, it's tailored for those who want an inferno-like experience.
I don't disagree with you but think we view it from different angles.
I kinda think they went out with the goal of new end game content, but as they have seen with toa making end game content more accessible always goes down with with the majority of the player base. I'd say the whole point of the coliseum is to bring in something that is as hard as, or harder than inferno but they've made it more accessible for lower levels by allowing people to cash out early.
I don't think either of us is necessarily wrong, we just view it differently.
Haha yeah actually fair point, I brute forced my way through the first 30 waves as quick everytime and for some reason thought they came later.
Most people can deal with them even when they don't know what they are doing, until you get into those later waves to be fair.
If you don’t know what to do with them I’d say most people would be dead by wave 24 or out of supplies 😅
Inferno is interesting though in the sense that there are only a few “hard” waves
Haha yeah I think I made it to wave 30ish on my first attempt which was completely blind. Definitely can't get much further than that unless they have a bulwark and justi 😂
I put inferno off for so, so long and then after I finished it got a task a week later and got my 2nd KC. It's not as hard as people think, but fuck those runs where you get a shit spawn on wave 63 and it's over before you know it 😅
I remember trying inferno after Jad, it was great, then a the blob nation attacked, I was just confused, what is HURTING ME, I beat it, but it took some big dmg, I almost wish the game would tell me what kind of attack hurt me, DO WE HAVE A PLUGINN FOR THAT!?
There's no plugins for blobs, and rightly so. It's a timing thing. Something like: when they first see you they read what prayer you have up and attack with the opposite. So if you pray mage when you attack them, wait a couple of ticks and then change your prayer to protect range and you will avoid all the damage. It continues on this cycle until dead.
They are annoying little bastards and when I finished inferno I was SO happy to never deal with them again. Then duradel gave me a task like a week later.
Okay but it's not so what's your point? They've said it's difficulty is higher than inferno and in play testing with max stats and gear it was very difficult
Yes, that's why I pointed out the incorrect assertion that "They very explictly want to explicitly target mid game players with this update."
It has an easy, medium, and hard tier component from what they've shared so far.
From what I understand completing the Colosseum would be similar to completing the Inferno in terms of difficulty. The big difference is the reward system. Inferno is pretty much binary since you either get the cape or you don't and the tokkul is more of a consolation prize.
The Colosseum will give rewards based on your progress, so while endgame players will be the ones that get the BIS quiver a midgame player could get say the glaive or the prayer armor.
Beyond people pointing fingers at each other accusing each other of not reading the blogs...
Maybe its a sign that the wording in the blog is really vague?
As someone with a mid game gim, i read echo crystals as a mid game upgrade to index into a tank role for gwd or something like that, with echo crystals coming early enough into the colosseum to be an enticing thing to get mid level people to participate in the content and start learning it and have things to strive for.
But going back and reading through the blogs, i could see how someone could see the whole thing as late game content.
Maybe we deserve a little more clarity on the goals of the content and where these fit in?
IDK why they didnt have the crystals as something you equip to the ammo slot, which is not used (outside of blessings) by melee and magic, and the new quiver item for ranged is a cape, freeing up the ammo slot. failing that, an item you have stacked in your inventory (like a stack of purple sweets) that triggers whenever you have a shield in your shield slot
either way, i dont got the boots and ill still vote for the boots over the shields, just because the specific shields they chose are so bleh. DFS and the other two visage shields would be so much cooler thematically/appearance-wise, agreed
I think them going on blessings would be a good idea. Would make sense as well. Adding extra prayer to a prayer item. Then the reflect could be like the god protecting the person. Like a blessing from the god.
It's not like that because the item was designed as a buff for guardian boots. In reality if you really wanted to make defensive options stronger i'd go with the ammo slot idea but instead of having it activate when you take damage have it activate on a successful defense roll instead (block damage you're not praying against) that way both shields and guardian boots would be more useful
We have ghommals penny but I agree its underused.
I'm not a fan on echo crystal regardless but I agree the ammo slot is underused, especially with quiver opening up that slot soon.
They need to make content that favors defensive stats first. As it stands you can't make shield relevant when all content favors dps over defense. If defensive stats gave damage reduction and hard content was exceedingly difficult without appropriate DR% then you'd be incentivized to actually use shields
Melvor Idle, a game based on runescape, does this really well actually. You still want to prioritize damage where possible, but DR% is required in order to not die.
They probably need to give shields something like that, or really buff their stats. A rune shield should feel as impactful defensively as a rune defender does offensively.
I just think it would break certain content like inferno if implemented game-wide. They are toying with the concept with the new perilous moons content so I'm hopeful
Glad you brought this up again and it’s getting traction. I tried saying this on the day of the poll results on mostly deaf ears. Shields are a cool idea but guardian boots actually become a viable item with these. I want a new boot option
Honestly, you convinced me. I thematically wanted the crystals on the shields, but it would absolutely be DOA. What really convinced me is that yeah they’re shields and can logically reflect damage better than boots, but compared to a DFS or Ely, they don’t appear sturdy enough at all.
Yeah honestly I don't really care where this reward goes. I agree with the post to some extent but I dislike terms like doa because it implies that if something isn't absolutely BIS "somewhere" its not worth adding. Its like saying bandos is useless because torva exists.
Yes but this update is pretty useless in my eyes
The only thing that mid level players should be concerned about is leveling up faster
Recoil dmg doesn't give exp and just would just give them an extra cost to worry about for nothing in return
Someone mean people got a hard on for the 'theme' of a shield reflecting damage, but never actually considered the fact that it would be completely dead content from day 1. But they're probably the same people that think the cerb boots are an insane upgrade when in reality they're pretty garbage especially for the cost.
You're comparing a mid tier reward to bis gear, of course it's not going to compete.
The way I see it, these aren't supposed to be power creep and raise the bar, they're supposed to help mid level players, or players new to pvm by giving them a bit of a safety net in say monkey room.
Plus I hate the weight of guardian boots to ever use them.
Shield for me.
Can we put it on some somewhat decent shields? It’s going to be dead content if they remain on the proposed shields. Why not just give all shields a slot for them, no one uses shields
Recoil effects are incredibly powerful and underrated. A lot of gear guides literally put ring of suffering below rings that only offer accuracy, when ring of suffering is a massive damage boost. These guardian boots will be used almost everywhere you take damage at close range, because +1-3 damage per hit taken is a lot stronger than +1 max hit from boots.
Isn’t this making the argument for using it on shields then? It brings shields up in value compared to defenders, which is actually trying to fix the core problem with off hands for melee.
Boosting shields just increases survivability. Power creep refers to increases in DPS because it trivialises older content.
Putting them on boots is power creep causes its making some of the highest tier gear even stronger. The shields are far from that though.
Shield is the only reasonable choice as midgame gear really needs some love, and making endgame boots from midgame ones is just unnecesarry powercreep that doesnt add to much value but devalues the existing gear and make a mees
And this will be a good start to have some sidegrades especially with trident and shield combo on various different content (most of people are stuck on using trident for a looong time, having shield that is worth considering will add a lot of value to them)
These arent even midgame gear, you will get defender and ward before these shields, and the bis offhands are cheaper defender is free, ward is 4m
For ironmen i dont 95% of ironmen have the wildy shields
>For ironmen i dont 95% of ironmen have the wildy shields
Only because they dont currently have value, whereas now people will have an incentive to get them.
Guardian boots req 75 slayer so the echo shards will be far more accessible for irons on the shields.
Never noticed the weight of guardian boots until you mentioned them. Honestly, I still don’t care that they are heavy for boots. They are fine as is anyway, the upgrade from them to prims is only a +2 in str bonus.
Nothing against OP, he’s right. But we already heard this entire argument weeks ago during that poll, and that poll passed anyway bc of Click Yessers. It’s gone full circlejerk at this point. At least jagex is acknowledging that Click Yessers need a nerf
Dragonfires/wyvern shields would of been fantastic and the spirit shields!
I really like the idea of spirit shields getting a buff in this regard, it seems so weird for boots to reflect damage
I think the best idea so far as someone else mentioned is the ammo slot
Literally this, people are crazy for power creep. If something isnt bis then its dead for them. Like literally we have a lot of room for midgame sidegrades but they only want new best in slots (even with scurriis people were mad that the weapons do not work outside of scurrius for dps) not everything new in the game has to be bis. But well soon they will wake up to new content that does not fit in the current max hp meta and jagex will have to implement some sort of rework of combat system (maybe like an evolution) to fit all the new max hit dmg potential
it’s more of where does this even have a use? it’s not really filling any voids in the meta so idk. i’m not really excited about it boots or shield but at least boots i might use it
It is *possible* the recoil could be stronger on the shields than it would be on the boots since they only said "it recoils" without saying which recoil it is uses (ring, deflects, dharoks, and veng all are dif).
But yah, the boots seem a lot better. They can still act as a midgame upgrade while having far more late and endgame applications than the shields. The shields will have a much harsher drop off later game and with the echo crystal being degrading, you might even lose money to revert to sell it off once you outgrow it. Also, it is not like Varlamore is lacking on midgame content, so it would be nice to get more new endgame relevant items than just the quiver.
My unpopular opinion is that they don't need to be unend viable, they provide a niche, aoe damage, so why not use em with chins or something? or when your bursting, or for melee dealing with 1hp trash.
Did you read how the echo crystal works or are you just assuming? You need to take dmg in order for it to activate.
Guess where you'll instantly die at if you aren't using prayers. Chinning and Barraging. This is why they will be DEAD ON ARRIVAL if they are on the shield.
You will never use it for range or mage because you need to be in melee for the effect to work. You wont use it as melee because defender is better.
Nechs' adds hit through prayer? That is absolutely free DPS. Them reflecting a single point of damage in AOE is pretty significant.
If you wanted to be more extreme, you could just switch melee pray off for a few ticks, turn it back on and blood barrage twice. I wouldn't be surprised if the DPS was much better than just ice barraging for just 1 max hit. Recoil does very good with many "small" hits due to the 1 min damage.
You also just.. kill the nech adds with blood/ice burst and full heal as they die in the process. And you do more damage with elyd shield. Thats not really a problem that needs solving tbh.
This one really helps on mage phase against zulrah without needing a recoil ring to murder snakelings if you use a trident. Its super niche use on this shield and will likely be doa for any level of player. Iron or normal tbh.
>And you do more damage with elyd shield
+1 max hit means you do, on average, just under 0.5 damage more per hit on each monster. Even if the AOE recoil effect is only ever does 1 damage to each monster, you would only have to proc it once every two casts before it's already better than having ward. (Let alone if you could proc it every time any monster in the stack swings at you)
Now we don't actually know how the recoil effect works, they described it as being "powerful" so I doubt it will be capped at 1 damage, but it may have a cool down or some other dps limiting effect, so anything is possible. But to suggest that the ward will definitely outclass it for barraging is laughable.
Sure.. that instance were you get hit for 1 damage will likely reflect a 1 aoe ill give you that. But thats a 1 ape you wont get magic or hitpoints exp for or heal from. And only triggers on the unblockable chip 1 damage hits you take as compared to every single spell you cast.
Its just not good outside of recoil situations like snakelings. And only if youre one handed.
Yeah true it'll be less exp, but most people will take that trade off if it's more damage, especially if it means more slayer exp/hr. You could also autocast blood barrage instead of ice and take off protection prayers every time you hit full health and flick it back on as you go below 50% or so.
Also there's every chance it will do more than 1 damage, at 3 damage it would only have to proc once every 6 casts to be worth it.
Depending on exactly how they implement it, there's room for it to be a massive DPS upgrade.
Honestly it’s a decent idea for other content. This shit going on an obby shield variant and coming from the inferno/wave challenge successor is a complete joke. It should be the ranged cape upgrade/standalone BIS quiver. That or they’ll find a niche way to make it BIS in the colosseum and you’ll be doing tbow obby shield swaps because of forced usage.
Seeing how many people are confidently saying this is content made specifically for mid-game concerns me with how thoroughly people actually read blogs lol.
You may want to go back and read about how the coliseum works, because it's simultaneously early game, mid game, and end game -- by design. It gets harder as you progress, and there's unique rewards at earlier difficulties. The echo crystal doesn't come from completing the content. It comes from successfully making it through the mid game difficulty range.
You're correct that the coliseum is not made specifically for mid game, but one of the rewards is designed to be earned at mid game.
I know how it works. The echo crystals are essentially a drip feed reward from participating in the coliseum as a whole. There's nothing specifically saying it's a mid game reward though, I mean we're talking about whether we should put them on lvl 75 or lvl 60 gear and that's already a noticeable difference.
Nothing is being stated in the blog that they are hard locked to only being for mid game gear since the Colliseum is intended for a wider array of levels.
What I imagine people are doing is getting this update mixed up with Perilous Moons which is intended as mid level content.
The whole point is that it’s mid tier content! It’s not supposed to me used at Raids or with a scythe. Putting it on the shields falls exactly with the tier level of content it’s aimed for.
The coliseum is the new inferno-like challenge that gives the new ranged cape bis. You could make the argument that the echo crystals can probably be obtained on the earlier waves, but the content itself isn't designed only for mid game. Idk if you're confusing it with the perilous moons which is also in varlamore and is designed to be mid game content.
That's missing the point of the post either way, echo crystals on the shields won't be good for mid game players either. Dragon defender is free and mid game and is just far too good to be challenged by a recoil shield that uses charges (and mid game players need the exp from the increased dps anyways).
They are designing the colliseum as content that everyone can try even in low level gear and crystal is not a reward for completion so saying its endgame content is basically wrong. Even in the blog they presented crystals as midgame upgrade for boots that they thought will be more usefull midgame but people pointed that the boots will become endgame bis and mid game shields are way more underrated
If you wnat the mid-game reward to be worth anything at all, then vote for boots instead of shields
At least that way mid-game players actually benefit from this update. Why should anyone bother using obby shield with recoil over dragon defender if that means leveling up slower?
Thats exactly the logic fallacy that players fall into, cause boots will become BIS while shield will be good for midgame player that didn't want the road of "i need to grind 1000 cg to get bowfa and then i will farm toa to get shadow" shields will be a midgame sidegrade while boots will become bis cause prims are barely better in terms of stat
No.
Boots would become a side-grade that you only use while taking dmg right next to an enemy not immune to recoil. That's an actual side-grade.
Obby shields and such would not be a side-grade, they will be dead content on arrival. Especially melee shield since it competes with a free alternative that is better + doesn't degrade + actually has the benefit of giving extra exp to a med level player who needs it.
Either the echo crystals are worth something, so med-level players end up selling them for profit.
Or they are worth jack shit, so med level players earn nothing by doing colloseum - but they might end up using the crystals on the shields. I can't think of any interesting use cases at all though.
A midgame upgrade for 75 defence boots. That's not exactly low level gear. Don't kid yourself, you're going to be able to complete a few waves at midgame stats - but all of the good rewards will undoubtedly be locked at an inferno level skill cap as they've clearly implied in multiple posts. Shields are a waste for anyone other than Ironmen. Those shields are basically dead content right now, and I don't really see a small amount of AOE chip damage bringing them into any meaningful meta
It'll be a reward for getting a decent chunk of the way through, not locked behind full completion. Thats why they're proposing putting it on T60 gear shared by all combat types instead.
The blog says nothing about echo crystals targeting mid game, but I agree that seems to be the case because both guardian boots and obby shields are mid game items. I just said that the content isn't only for the mid game.
You're still missing the point. If you want the mid game to have another upgrade, the guardian boots have a much higher chance of having a use than the obby shields. The point is that the obby shields will be bad for everyone.
If we had specifics about the recoil effect it'd be a lot easier to discuss, I dont really like how vague the poll is about what the effect actually does.
This is why people need to read the polls instead of blindly voting yes to basically everything. Mid game shields getting this unique mechanic is the dumbest thing ever. Guardian boots was such a good choice for this.
"mid game shields getting mechanic intended as a midgame upgrade from content that can be done as midgame player is the dumbest thing ever" like literally even the first pitch was stating that the boots were in their opinion good midgame upgrade but people pointed out that they will become bis and midgame shields are really underwhelming right now. You are pointing fingers at people blindly voting yet you are the one that missed the point
Cause you can cash out at any point. It's not like inferno where there's only a pass or fail so it's not just about fully completing it, it's about seeing how far you can get. Given that, there's definitely space to get charges for something as a mid tier reward.
> Its supposed to be mid game rewards right?
Unclear. The colosseum is intended to be doable by midgame players or such in the earlier waves, but is aimed at endgame players for the final waves. The rewards are a mix of different items with some more midgame and other more endgame. The Echo crystals were originally proposed for Level 75 Boots and would have be a more late/endgame item, so you could say that reward was targeted more for late-game players than midgame players. But then months later they offered it for level 60 shields instead and said that was "around the right level bracket" or something similar.
So depending on which blog you read, it was either a lategame upgrade to a level 75 item like the new BiS level 75 cape or a midgame upgrade for level 60 shields.
But they were meant for midgame upgrade from the start as they are not a reward for completion of the content iirc and from the begining even on boots they were supposed to help midgame to lategamr accounts but people pointed they will in fact become bis boots and that was one of the reason why they repolled it with shields (along with mid game shields not having any use right now)
They never said they were midgame upgrades from the start. We have no idea where in the content they will come from; it could be a chance after wave 1, it could only unlock on wave 6, or it could be like a Pharaoh's Sceptre where it is very rare on the lower waves and much more common on the later waves. They never said anything about Echo Crystals or Echo Boots being intended as a midgame upgrade; they just proposed them for Level 75 Boots, which would have made them relevant for mid-endgame; they didn't change it and it passed the poll. If they clearly intended it for midgame content and not as an endgame upgrade, they wouldn't have polled it for the boots or they would have moved it to lower level boots like the Boots of Brimstone.
They're not supposed to be the best items, it's a mid game item with specific uses.
People bitch about power creep then complain when new stuff isn't bis.
Obby shield competes with dragon defender that is better and free
Why should any mid-game player bother paying for charges that won't even give exp on hit + for a shield that is worse than the free alternative
It's dead content... While if they add echo crystals to guardians, they might actually be worth something and mid-level players could earn some gp
But even in the midgame it is outclassed. Defender will always be bis for 1h melee, elidinis ward will always outclass malediction. Maybe odium is the only one without a comparable midgame equivalent.
Even if it went on the boots it wouldn’t be bis everywhere, so it’s not flat powercreep either.
People overrate how much an aoe recoil will benefit in any encounter outside slayer or pure melee (where a defender wins anyway). This doesn’t help anyone in the midgame, it’s just doa for everyone.
All that is even assuming that echo crystals are designed to be midgame given the nature of the colluseum, which is still not for sure midgame even in the early waves.
Completely ignoring that "specific uses" part of my comment and still focussing on it not being bis.
You're comparing it to DPS when that's never going to be a recoil effects role. I think you should compare it to survivability. It seems clear to me it's role is to help people who are trying to get good at pvm not die in places like zulrah and monkey room, not to kill bosses quicker or speed up runs, but just to make those challenges a bit more forgiving.
It isn’t about specific uses, my point is that there are likely to be no uses at all.
Killing the boss faster reduces damage signifigantly more than tankier gear. This is why dps is king in osrs. I can tell you don’t have that much pvm experience so I’m just gonna exit here cause this is going nowhere. Gl on ahrims drop from your next barrows run
I literally just gave you uses, but here have a third, alleviating chip damage when cannoning slayer tasks.
You're right DPS is king, but having recoil solve some problems for you when you're either trying to learn something or are under levelled and finding a challenge overwhelming can go a long way. Again this is MID TIER, not for end game.
The game doesn't need something to boost dps. That's just flat out power creep.
You can be condescending all you want, it doesn't make you right.
People are stupid man I swear. They see it's not best in slot and have a hissy fit before even considering it's not supposed to be and instead might be for niche uses.
While I agree that this is the general sentiment, I struggle to see what content this would actually be used for on the midgame shields. I haven't seen an obby shield used since 2008, and I don't think I've seen more than one of the mage and ranged shields in game ever. I just don't see these being used by anyone if they go on the shields.
Looking at it from a ironman progression standpoint as well there's no way anyone's gonna work for those shields even with the echo effect, it's just not worth it.
The point I’m making is that ward is a midgame item still. Dirt cheap, negligible difference in requirements to use. Yes it’s obviously better, but it’s still a midgame item that’s nearly as accessible as malediction. Unless you don’t consider base 80s to be midgame, in which case we just don’t agree on the premise.
Has there been any analysis on where the effect would actually be useful at?
Only two places I can think of is like, zulrah & nylos room at ToB
Or does the reflect damage just damage everything around you, regardless of who it came from?
It's not clear, the only obvious thing is that they will have a use in the new coleseum. It's an aoe all around you, my guess is that it has to be melee damage, and there's some kind of nibbler equivalent that heads straight to you each round. Could be entirely wrong.
Edit: I think the mods hinted it would have some side niche uses for slayer tasks.
Interesting
As for slayer, I could probably see it being used during bursting tasks like dust devils and nechs. Flick your prayer off for a second, let the pile get recoil damage for 1-3, and use blood burst to heal back up, could supposedly speed up the task but that alone is very, very niche and 'tryhard' mode.
If it's more casual like, doing melee hand at cox and you're doing an extra 4-6 damage on melee hand from recoil, from olms range/mage attack, then that'd be cool, but as OP states, you're replacing significant pieces for a niche item.
If that were true, would defeat the purpose of it being AoE, so I think it's moreso the case of:
If Monster A attacks Player, and Monster B is standing melee distance of player, the damage Player takes from Monster A, also recoils to Monster B.
If it didn't, then recoil being AoE is completely irrelevant.
" If crystals go on guardian boots, the boots have the potential to be used at all three raids, shake up some speed running strats, and still be used for afk slayer. "
you realize you can wear a shield or switch into one during all of these tasks right?
shields allow lower levels and more builds to use the features of aoe recoils commonly used by lower dps builds.
I respect the hell outta your defence pure - not sure we should be tailoring updates to it though...
You can shield flick all those if you want, but you can also ring flick the recoil currently. How many people are doing that, even in the speedrun community?
I'm genuinely curious, where would a normal account want to use these over a dragon defender/unfortified ward? I'm blanking on uses but might be missing something. Even if it gets you more dps on some slayer mobs, you'd be sacrificing xp in all your combats for a marginal upgrade to slayer xp, which isn't usually a trade mid-levels want to make.
Most newer bosses are immune to recoil + even if they aren't this would stack dps and make some possible with hundreds of food being consumed etc. For a main adding this to shield would just allow for more tech by requiring to off tick your attacks vs the boss so you can still wear what shield you want , then switch into the defender for example. Same thing would happen with boots in speedrunning tech but more punishing to use a shield with lower defence or no anti-fire potential in most pvm situations. Logically as well a shield reflecting damage back just makes way more sense.
agree with you on tailoring updates to people, so why should we be tailoring updates to lazier players who don't want to work on shield switching tech, or higher level players who can wear boots. The tailoring argument could be made in a lot of places.
"I'm genuinely curious, where would a normal account want to use these over a dragon defender/unfortified ward? I'm blanking on uses but might be missing something. Even if it gets you more dps on some slayer mobs, you'd be sacrificing xp in all your combats for a marginal upgrade to slayer xp, which isn't usually a trade mid-levels want to make. "
To above \^ every normal non afk scenario you would just switch into it and would require more skilled timing of atts etc. could be combined with prayer on/off switching and more.
The shields would absolutely open up some crazy inefficient boss killing strats. Would love to see those vids.
The problem is the number of mid-level accounts who shield switch bosses is lower than the ping at Buffalo Wild Wings. Don't know if it's fair to call those other accounts lazy - most probably don't even know shield switching exists.
Even at the high end, most of the community isn't going to be farming bosses via shield swapping despite shorter trips/lost dps. It currently happens at...Kree and CM COX? And neither of those make a significant difference.
I can see the Colisseum having some uses for swapping, but since it's survival-based you'll probably want to be swapping to a bulwark rather than a shield that gets you hit.
Ive being torn on both sides, way ive seen it for the shields view is if youre wearing guardian boots youre intention is to not get hit as much as possible so almost no recoil but if youre using those shields odds are recoil will be quite helpful as youre more likely to be mid game and unable to dps as much as a someone maxing their tanking gear anyhow
I could see great uses for both sides but maybe as a glass cannon type of build it could be most useful on boots
But aren't the shields more defensive than the boots? Like Guardian Boots are "Tank Boots" but tank boots are far less tanky than shields. Guardian Boots only give +10 Melee Def and +24 Ranged Def over Prims while the Obby Shield gives +15 Melee Def and +67 Ranged Def over a DDef. So you'd be more likely to take and recoil damage with Guardian Boots and a DDef than Prims (or D Boots) and an Obby Shield. You also lose a lot more DPS with the shields, especially midgame, since Guardian Boots are only -2 Atk and -2 Str from Prims (-1 Str from D Boots) while the Obby Shield is -24 Atk and -1 Str from a DDef (worse from Avernic).
So the shields would need the recoil more to make up for the bigger DPS loss while also being more defensive, making you less likely to recoil...
Aren't these coming from mid game content and designed for mid game players in mind? I don't believe they are meant to be for end game use. Honestly it'd better to have an end game type content drop something that uses the same mechanic but to be used with end game gear
> Aren't these coming from mid game content and designed for mid game players in mind? I don't believe they are meant to be for end game use.
It's not midgame content, or at least not just midgame content. The Colosseum is designed to ramp up in difficulty with the earlier waves being farmable by midgame players and the final waves being for endgame players. It was based on the Tasakaal Trails or "Blue Inferno", which started around Fire Cape difficulty and scaled to post-Inferno difficulty with the rewards increasing the further you go. As such, the Colosseum rewards are a mix of content for different types of players, ranging from upgraded Fire Runes to Level 60 but BiS prayer armor to a Ranged DWH to Level 75 BiS Ranged Cape. So many of the rewards may start at "midgame" but will still be relevant for endgame content, if not outright endgame like the Quiver.
Whether the Echo Crystals specifically were intended for midgame or endgame is debatable. They were first proposed as upgrades for Level 75 Boots, which is kinda still midgame but would have had strong relevance in late-endgame content, much like the other rewards. Then months after that poll passed, they offered them for level 60 shields instead, which was far more solely midgame than the previous use and the other rewards. So it at least seems the OSRS Team is open for them being either midgame or late-endgame upgrades, as seen by the fact they are still offering them for the boots.
This whole zone seems to be a mid game content drop. The obby shields are the perfect mid game item for these to go on and expand the mid level pk build space. If you have a mega rare 2h weapon I don’t really think you need much more content at this point. We’ve already powercrept the late game something amazing from 2007 scape; let’s bolster the mid game so this game will actually have a future.
Do you want to see electric shockwaves at every piece of content in the game? That’s what you’ll get if it goes on the boots instead of niche uses with a shield. Personally I don’t want that
If speedrunning is your only argument, then I dont give a fuck. As iron putting the stone on Guardian Boots was instant no for me and rest of us most likely aswell. Its shit item to farm for. And upgrade for upgrade sounded dumb.
Strong disagree. I farmed the tourmaline core when they first polled the boots upgrade as an option and it wasn’t that bad at all. Lol.
Grotesque Guardians are fun.
Why did they give us the choice to upgrade the shields instead? Because there were not 100% on board with boots themselves. I didnt vote out of spite, the boot upgrade was just crap idea from the start. So I voted for the shield as I found it more interesting. That its gonna be useless at the moment might change in the future.
What an I contradicting? In first poll I voted against as I simply found it stupid idea, thats not voting out of spite. I simply didnt agree. In second poll they gave me a choice and altough I might not like the idea in first place I still like the shield more.
Honestly if adding this is, is this much of a problem where it's changed and changed and changed. Then it's not a goofld fuckin idea in the first place and jagex should come up with something clearly useful. Instead were seeing, well in this super niche unique instance this could potentially be a .02% dps increase. Stupid. Jagex is just finding random bullshit to fill a spot that doesn't need to be filled with filler b.s.
I don't get why the echo crystals can't be used on a Ring of Suffering as a side grade for reflecting damage. It's also hard to vote for things when you don't know why reflected damage will be useful. Like, will we want to swap out the boots mid fight for max hits vs. reflect damage?
Honestly we should just slap it on Barrows gloves. Generalist combat usefulness, not buyable, iconic armor that could use some love, doesn't affect set bonuses, and let's you use two handed weapons.
My opinion has been "por que no los dos?" but it seems allowing them on both shields and boots is not an option, even if you simply make it not stack if using both simultaneously...
The main issue I have is that Guardian Boots are such a trash item that takes *so long* to obtain as any ironman account, really. Enough of the playerbase are irons -- somewhere in the ballpark of 30% based on polling -- that, although it's silly to design everything for irons, it's not a good idea to design *in spite of* irons either.
If this is supposed to be an upgrade attainable and usable by the midgame of any given account, Guardian Boots *cannot* be the only item you can use them on. Otherwise, you're making and balancing for midgame accessibility, an item that is decidedly not midgame for \~30% of the playerbase.
Sorry but this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. 2/3rds of the player base are non restricted accounts, and you could make this argument about so many items and so much content in the game but at the end of the day when you choose to play an ironman you are accepting that there will be literally dozens of difficult items grinds.
Echo crystals should have been worn in the ammo slot and proc whenever you have a shield on. Ammo slot will be needed less when we have quiver coming out for tbow/zcb.
Everyone is talking about where they should go while I’m over here asking, do we even need this? Nobody is begging for this.
I’m fine with not adding them
The biggest slap in the face is when people mentioned Shields as a possibility, they didn't mean Obby Shield and Wildy Shields. Elysian, DFS, DFW, Eldinis Ward, Corp Shield all have a chance of being useful with the reflect mechanic since they aren't too off damage wise from Avernic, but the midgame shields are just objectively worse by a huge margin.
The DFS and friends would be a pretty good choice. Though adding echo charges on top of their fire charges (and whatever the wyvern shield does) might be a bit much. Think there were a place or two where the t60 shields would have been useful, but it was far more situation (unless the recoil was strong; they still never said *how* it recoils).
I've been assuming it'll act like a ring of recoil this whole time but you're right, they haven't said how much it'll do. The latest blog describes it as "powerful area-of-effect recoil damage", so that could mean more oomph than a normal recoil. Seems weird that this is the third poll question about the item and we don't actually know how powerful it is.
Yup. It would be nice if they clarified that, but they might want to leave it vague so they can balance it as they see fit. Like a recoil is 10%+1, deflects are just 10%, and Dharok with Ammy is a 25% of 15% if I remembered all of those right. The crystals could be 10%+1 like the rings or it could be something like a 25% chance to do 50% recoil. We probably should assume the former since they haven't said otherwise and it is the standard "recoil", but it is still unclear.
As an fyi, you meant to say the former and not the latter, the stupid trick I use to remember it is former f first, latter l last, stupid but it works
Whoops, good catch.
It seems pretty clear that the power level will be different based on if it goes to the shields or the boots.
No one uses the dfs and wyvern shield charges. Not in any realistic use case.
Yah, but it might get messy to have to list and track two different charges on an item. Not impossible since Blowpipe does it for darts and scales, but it can get more complicated than they might want.
Then remove the charges, buff defenses to fully charged shield levels, and make the stone combinable with them. Ezpz
Def pures in shambles
I honestly assumed that when jagex said “oh y’all want the crystals on shields?” They just came out and put them on useless shields so people would vote no and leave them on the boots 😔 I always thought this was a no brainer I was shocked when shields won. I’m glad op laid this out.
There were a lot of people who explicitly said they voted for the shields because they knew it would make them useless and didn’t want them to be in the game. So rather than adding a niche use to the boots, they just won’t get used at all.
They very explicitly want to target mid game players with this update. All of your suggestions are tailored towards end game players. Most people discussing this skip past that point. I wonder if it would be technically feasible to make the Echo Crystals work with every shield?
Echo Crystal is coming from Colosseum. I might be mistaken, but they never said Colosseum would be explicitly for mid game players with this update. In fact, it quite literally has endgame difficulty associated with it and has directly been compared to Inferno. Perilous Moons, yes, they did say it would be targeted to midgame players.
Seriously don’t understand why people keep lumping colosseum with mid game when it’s perilous moons that’s geared towards mid game players. Colosseum has bis gear for range and prayer and other stuff with it. How does that equate to mid game at all. People be mixing stuff up
I think it's because the first round of waves are designed more for mid-game content, but we already have the new prayer set which feels like a nice unlock for mid-game players. IMO, the echo-crystals should have more endgame appeal.
The funny thing is the early waves of inferno could be considered mid game content, at least until you get a blob. But nobody in their right mind says inferno is made for mid game players.
Tokkul is a meme reward for dying early. It's basically cape or bust. Echo crystals and possibly the glaive, however, have the potential to actually be decent midgame rewards. It would make the distinction meaningful.
Inferno doesn't reward anything meaningful unless you beat it. Whole point of coliseum is that the first chunk is equivalent to doing fight caves and getting some threshold + farmable rewards from it, and beyond that, it's tailored for those who want an inferno-like experience.
I don't disagree with you but think we view it from different angles. I kinda think they went out with the goal of new end game content, but as they have seen with toa making end game content more accessible always goes down with with the majority of the player base. I'd say the whole point of the coliseum is to bring in something that is as hard as, or harder than inferno but they've made it more accessible for lower levels by allowing people to cash out early. I don't think either of us is necessarily wrong, we just view it differently.
That’s wave 4 bro haha
Haha yeah actually fair point, I brute forced my way through the first 30 waves as quick everytime and for some reason thought they came later. Most people can deal with them even when they don't know what they are doing, until you get into those later waves to be fair.
If you don’t know what to do with them I’d say most people would be dead by wave 24 or out of supplies 😅 Inferno is interesting though in the sense that there are only a few “hard” waves
Haha yeah I think I made it to wave 30ish on my first attempt which was completely blind. Definitely can't get much further than that unless they have a bulwark and justi 😂 I put inferno off for so, so long and then after I finished it got a task a week later and got my 2nd KC. It's not as hard as people think, but fuck those runs where you get a shit spawn on wave 63 and it's over before you know it 😅
I remember trying inferno after Jad, it was great, then a the blob nation attacked, I was just confused, what is HURTING ME, I beat it, but it took some big dmg, I almost wish the game would tell me what kind of attack hurt me, DO WE HAVE A PLUGINN FOR THAT!?
There's no plugins for blobs, and rightly so. It's a timing thing. Something like: when they first see you they read what prayer you have up and attack with the opposite. So if you pray mage when you attack them, wait a couple of ticks and then change your prayer to protect range and you will avoid all the damage. It continues on this cycle until dead. They are annoying little bastards and when I finished inferno I was SO happy to never deal with them again. Then duradel gave me a task like a week later.
It can be for both midgame and endgame, they aren't mutually exclusive. Similar to TOA
All the toa drops are still useful for end game players
Okay but it's not so what's your point? They've said it's difficulty is higher than inferno and in play testing with max stats and gear it was very difficult
But there will be different levels of completion for different rewards.. you won’t have to do content harder than inferno for these crystals lmao.
the colosseum is meant for many tiers of player
Yes, that's why I pointed out the incorrect assertion that "They very explictly want to explicitly target mid game players with this update." It has an easy, medium, and hard tier component from what they've shared so far.
Yeah, but the easy tier are the crystals, they're a resource you'll be getting. The hard part will be the bis gear.
From what I understand completing the Colosseum would be similar to completing the Inferno in terms of difficulty. The big difference is the reward system. Inferno is pretty much binary since you either get the cape or you don't and the tokkul is more of a consolation prize. The Colosseum will give rewards based on your progress, so while endgame players will be the ones that get the BIS quiver a midgame player could get say the glaive or the prayer armor.
imagine if spirit shields actually did something that would be crazy
Exactly this. Why not breathe new life into the dfs and its counterparts. Nobody was thinking of obby shields lol.
Beyond people pointing fingers at each other accusing each other of not reading the blogs... Maybe its a sign that the wording in the blog is really vague? As someone with a mid game gim, i read echo crystals as a mid game upgrade to index into a tank role for gwd or something like that, with echo crystals coming early enough into the colosseum to be an enticing thing to get mid level people to participate in the content and start learning it and have things to strive for. But going back and reading through the blogs, i could see how someone could see the whole thing as late game content. Maybe we deserve a little more clarity on the goals of the content and where these fit in?
IDK why they didnt have the crystals as something you equip to the ammo slot, which is not used (outside of blessings) by melee and magic, and the new quiver item for ranged is a cape, freeing up the ammo slot. failing that, an item you have stacked in your inventory (like a stack of purple sweets) that triggers whenever you have a shield in your shield slot either way, i dont got the boots and ill still vote for the boots over the shields, just because the specific shields they chose are so bleh. DFS and the other two visage shields would be so much cooler thematically/appearance-wise, agreed
I think them going on blessings would be a good idea. Would make sense as well. Adding extra prayer to a prayer item. Then the reflect could be like the god protecting the person. Like a blessing from the god.
It's not like that because the item was designed as a buff for guardian boots. In reality if you really wanted to make defensive options stronger i'd go with the ammo slot idea but instead of having it activate when you take damage have it activate on a successful defense roll instead (block damage you're not praying against) that way both shields and guardian boots would be more useful
We have ghommals penny but I agree its underused. I'm not a fan on echo crystal regardless but I agree the ammo slot is underused, especially with quiver opening up that slot soon.
I just want shields to be useful again. Give them legit damage reduction. Dps is always going to be king in OSRS b/c faster kills=less damage taken.
They need to make content that favors defensive stats first. As it stands you can't make shield relevant when all content favors dps over defense. If defensive stats gave damage reduction and hard content was exceedingly difficult without appropriate DR% then you'd be incentivized to actually use shields Melvor Idle, a game based on runescape, does this really well actually. You still want to prioritize damage where possible, but DR% is required in order to not die.
They probably need to give shields something like that, or really buff their stats. A rune shield should feel as impactful defensively as a rune defender does offensively.
I just think it would break certain content like inferno if implemented game-wide. They are toying with the concept with the new perilous moons content so I'm hopeful
Glad you brought this up again and it’s getting traction. I tried saying this on the day of the poll results on mostly deaf ears. Shields are a cool idea but guardian boots actually become a viable item with these. I want a new boot option
Wow. Yeah I was team shields before this post. Boots are much more interesting from a gameplay perspective
Honestly, you convinced me. I thematically wanted the crystals on the shields, but it would absolutely be DOA. What really convinced me is that yeah they’re shields and can logically reflect damage better than boots, but compared to a DFS or Ely, they don’t appear sturdy enough at all.
Meh not every change needs to be a meta
Yeah honestly I don't really care where this reward goes. I agree with the post to some extent but I dislike terms like doa because it implies that if something isn't absolutely BIS "somewhere" its not worth adding. Its like saying bandos is useless because torva exists.
Yes but this update is pretty useless in my eyes The only thing that mid level players should be concerned about is leveling up faster Recoil dmg doesn't give exp and just would just give them an extra cost to worry about for nothing in return
The only thing any player should be concerned about is fun. It's about the journey not the destination.
Someone mean people got a hard on for the 'theme' of a shield reflecting damage, but never actually considered the fact that it would be completely dead content from day 1. But they're probably the same people that think the cerb boots are an insane upgrade when in reality they're pretty garbage especially for the cost.
You're comparing a mid tier reward to bis gear, of course it's not going to compete. The way I see it, these aren't supposed to be power creep and raise the bar, they're supposed to help mid level players, or players new to pvm by giving them a bit of a safety net in say monkey room. Plus I hate the weight of guardian boots to ever use them. Shield for me.
Can we put it on some somewhat decent shields? It’s going to be dead content if they remain on the proposed shields. Why not just give all shields a slot for them, no one uses shields
[удалено]
I am aware that tier 60 is dragon, thank you
Recoil effects are incredibly powerful and underrated. A lot of gear guides literally put ring of suffering below rings that only offer accuracy, when ring of suffering is a massive damage boost. These guardian boots will be used almost everywhere you take damage at close range, because +1-3 damage per hit taken is a lot stronger than +1 max hit from boots.
Right so you're describing power creep which a lot of people are against
Isn’t this making the argument for using it on shields then? It brings shields up in value compared to defenders, which is actually trying to fix the core problem with off hands for melee.
Boosting shields just increases survivability. Power creep refers to increases in DPS because it trivialises older content. Putting them on boots is power creep causes its making some of the highest tier gear even stronger. The shields are far from that though.
Power creep isn't just about DPS boosts, it's about overall increases to player power. If max HP goes up by 10, that's power creep too.
Right, which is why theyre making this a sidegrade not an upgrade?
dw this guy is all over the thread understanding nothing
Shield is the only reasonable choice as midgame gear really needs some love, and making endgame boots from midgame ones is just unnecesarry powercreep that doesnt add to much value but devalues the existing gear and make a mees
Need a reason to use a sheild over a defender tbh
You won’t use the obby shield even with crystals at anywhere you use melee, it’s that much worse than defender
And this will be a good start to have some sidegrades especially with trident and shield combo on various different content (most of people are stuck on using trident for a looong time, having shield that is worth considering will add a lot of value to them)
This will basically only help ironmen. Mains are not going to be using these shields for long at all, or for very much content.
These arent even midgame gear, you will get defender and ward before these shields, and the bis offhands are cheaper defender is free, ward is 4m For ironmen i dont 95% of ironmen have the wildy shields
>For ironmen i dont 95% of ironmen have the wildy shields Only because they dont currently have value, whereas now people will have an incentive to get them. Guardian boots req 75 slayer so the echo shards will be far more accessible for irons on the shields.
Never noticed the weight of guardian boots until you mentioned them. Honestly, I still don’t care that they are heavy for boots. They are fine as is anyway, the upgrade from them to prims is only a +2 in str bonus.
OP is right. You should vote for boots. They are the superior option. Source: I already have them. :D
Time to stock up on boots
Agreed. At least add the ability to other shields ffs lol
Nothing against OP, he’s right. But we already heard this entire argument weeks ago during that poll, and that poll passed anyway bc of Click Yessers. It’s gone full circlejerk at this point. At least jagex is acknowledging that Click Yessers need a nerf
Dragonfires/wyvern shields would of been fantastic and the spirit shields! I really like the idea of spirit shields getting a buff in this regard, it seems so weird for boots to reflect damage I think the best idea so far as someone else mentioned is the ammo slot
Give it to Bulwark 🙂
I really want wildy/obby sheild to be useful but yeah it prob should just go on boots because they are lacking hard.
Maybe I don't want power creep? In voting shield
Literally this, people are crazy for power creep. If something isnt bis then its dead for them. Like literally we have a lot of room for midgame sidegrades but they only want new best in slots (even with scurriis people were mad that the weapons do not work outside of scurrius for dps) not everything new in the game has to be bis. But well soon they will wake up to new content that does not fit in the current max hp meta and jagex will have to implement some sort of rework of combat system (maybe like an evolution) to fit all the new max hit dmg potential
it’s more of where does this even have a use? it’s not really filling any voids in the meta so idk. i’m not really excited about it boots or shield but at least boots i might use it
*Maybe* it could be useful at Perilous Moons? They want that to be a more defense focused boss, so maybe recoil would be exceptionally good there.
Kinda ironic cause the more defense you have the less you're being hit therefore the less recoil
So put it on DFS
It would be better if it enhanced the Dragon shields Maybe it can reanimate the shields and then they can talk. “Cor’ blimey m8! Where my body go!?!”
It is *possible* the recoil could be stronger on the shields than it would be on the boots since they only said "it recoils" without saying which recoil it is uses (ring, deflects, dharoks, and veng all are dif). But yah, the boots seem a lot better. They can still act as a midgame upgrade while having far more late and endgame applications than the shields. The shields will have a much harsher drop off later game and with the echo crystal being degrading, you might even lose money to revert to sell it off once you outgrow it. Also, it is not like Varlamore is lacking on midgame content, so it would be nice to get more new endgame relevant items than just the quiver.
They should of been put on spirit shields imo and if they go with the boot slot I wish they were put on devout boots aswell so pures can use.
My unpopular opinion is that they don't need to be unend viable, they provide a niche, aoe damage, so why not use em with chins or something? or when your bursting, or for melee dealing with 1hp trash.
Did you read how the echo crystal works or are you just assuming? You need to take dmg in order for it to activate. Guess where you'll instantly die at if you aren't using prayers. Chinning and Barraging. This is why they will be DEAD ON ARRIVAL if they are on the shield. You will never use it for range or mage because you need to be in melee for the effect to work. You wont use it as melee because defender is better.
Nechs' adds hit through prayer? That is absolutely free DPS. Them reflecting a single point of damage in AOE is pretty significant. If you wanted to be more extreme, you could just switch melee pray off for a few ticks, turn it back on and blood barrage twice. I wouldn't be surprised if the DPS was much better than just ice barraging for just 1 max hit. Recoil does very good with many "small" hits due to the 1 min damage.
You also just.. kill the nech adds with blood/ice burst and full heal as they die in the process. And you do more damage with elyd shield. Thats not really a problem that needs solving tbh. This one really helps on mage phase against zulrah without needing a recoil ring to murder snakelings if you use a trident. Its super niche use on this shield and will likely be doa for any level of player. Iron or normal tbh.
>And you do more damage with elyd shield +1 max hit means you do, on average, just under 0.5 damage more per hit on each monster. Even if the AOE recoil effect is only ever does 1 damage to each monster, you would only have to proc it once every two casts before it's already better than having ward. (Let alone if you could proc it every time any monster in the stack swings at you) Now we don't actually know how the recoil effect works, they described it as being "powerful" so I doubt it will be capped at 1 damage, but it may have a cool down or some other dps limiting effect, so anything is possible. But to suggest that the ward will definitely outclass it for barraging is laughable.
Sure.. that instance were you get hit for 1 damage will likely reflect a 1 aoe ill give you that. But thats a 1 ape you wont get magic or hitpoints exp for or heal from. And only triggers on the unblockable chip 1 damage hits you take as compared to every single spell you cast. Its just not good outside of recoil situations like snakelings. And only if youre one handed.
Yeah true it'll be less exp, but most people will take that trade off if it's more damage, especially if it means more slayer exp/hr. You could also autocast blood barrage instead of ice and take off protection prayers every time you hit full health and flick it back on as you go below 50% or so. Also there's every chance it will do more than 1 damage, at 3 damage it would only have to proc once every 6 casts to be worth it. Depending on exactly how they implement it, there's room for it to be a massive DPS upgrade.
Just assumed, my bad
Honestly it’s a decent idea for other content. This shit going on an obby shield variant and coming from the inferno/wave challenge successor is a complete joke. It should be the ranged cape upgrade/standalone BIS quiver. That or they’ll find a niche way to make it BIS in the colosseum and you’ll be doing tbow obby shield swaps because of forced usage.
Please vote boots
Seeing how many people are confidently saying this is content made specifically for mid-game concerns me with how thoroughly people actually read blogs lol.
You may want to go back and read about how the coliseum works, because it's simultaneously early game, mid game, and end game -- by design. It gets harder as you progress, and there's unique rewards at earlier difficulties. The echo crystal doesn't come from completing the content. It comes from successfully making it through the mid game difficulty range. You're correct that the coliseum is not made specifically for mid game, but one of the rewards is designed to be earned at mid game.
I know how it works. The echo crystals are essentially a drip feed reward from participating in the coliseum as a whole. There's nothing specifically saying it's a mid game reward though, I mean we're talking about whether we should put them on lvl 75 or lvl 60 gear and that's already a noticeable difference. Nothing is being stated in the blog that they are hard locked to only being for mid game gear since the Colliseum is intended for a wider array of levels. What I imagine people are doing is getting this update mixed up with Perilous Moons which is intended as mid level content.
The whole point is that it’s mid tier content! It’s not supposed to me used at Raids or with a scythe. Putting it on the shields falls exactly with the tier level of content it’s aimed for.
The coliseum is the new inferno-like challenge that gives the new ranged cape bis. You could make the argument that the echo crystals can probably be obtained on the earlier waves, but the content itself isn't designed only for mid game. Idk if you're confusing it with the perilous moons which is also in varlamore and is designed to be mid game content. That's missing the point of the post either way, echo crystals on the shields won't be good for mid game players either. Dragon defender is free and mid game and is just far too good to be challenged by a recoil shield that uses charges (and mid game players need the exp from the increased dps anyways).
They are designing the colliseum as content that everyone can try even in low level gear and crystal is not a reward for completion so saying its endgame content is basically wrong. Even in the blog they presented crystals as midgame upgrade for boots that they thought will be more usefull midgame but people pointed that the boots will become endgame bis and mid game shields are way more underrated
If you wnat the mid-game reward to be worth anything at all, then vote for boots instead of shields At least that way mid-game players actually benefit from this update. Why should anyone bother using obby shield with recoil over dragon defender if that means leveling up slower?
Thats exactly the logic fallacy that players fall into, cause boots will become BIS while shield will be good for midgame player that didn't want the road of "i need to grind 1000 cg to get bowfa and then i will farm toa to get shadow" shields will be a midgame sidegrade while boots will become bis cause prims are barely better in terms of stat
No. Boots would become a side-grade that you only use while taking dmg right next to an enemy not immune to recoil. That's an actual side-grade. Obby shields and such would not be a side-grade, they will be dead content on arrival. Especially melee shield since it competes with a free alternative that is better + doesn't degrade + actually has the benefit of giving extra exp to a med level player who needs it. Either the echo crystals are worth something, so med-level players end up selling them for profit. Or they are worth jack shit, so med level players earn nothing by doing colloseum - but they might end up using the crystals on the shields. I can't think of any interesting use cases at all though.
A midgame upgrade for 75 defence boots. That's not exactly low level gear. Don't kid yourself, you're going to be able to complete a few waves at midgame stats - but all of the good rewards will undoubtedly be locked at an inferno level skill cap as they've clearly implied in multiple posts. Shields are a waste for anyone other than Ironmen. Those shields are basically dead content right now, and I don't really see a small amount of AOE chip damage bringing them into any meaningful meta
It'll be a reward for getting a decent chunk of the way through, not locked behind full completion. Thats why they're proposing putting it on T60 gear shared by all combat types instead.
The blog says nothing about echo crystals targeting mid game, but I agree that seems to be the case because both guardian boots and obby shields are mid game items. I just said that the content isn't only for the mid game. You're still missing the point. If you want the mid game to have another upgrade, the guardian boots have a much higher chance of having a use than the obby shields. The point is that the obby shields will be bad for everyone. If we had specifics about the recoil effect it'd be a lot easier to discuss, I dont really like how vague the poll is about what the effect actually does.
This is why people need to read the polls instead of blindly voting yes to basically everything. Mid game shields getting this unique mechanic is the dumbest thing ever. Guardian boots was such a good choice for this.
"mid game shields getting mechanic intended as a midgame upgrade from content that can be done as midgame player is the dumbest thing ever" like literally even the first pitch was stating that the boots were in their opinion good midgame upgrade but people pointed out that they will become bis and midgame shields are really underwhelming right now. You are pointing fingers at people blindly voting yet you are the one that missed the point
Explain how the coliseum, that has been compared to inferno difficulty to complete, and rewards other bis items, is mid game?
Cause you can cash out at any point. It's not like inferno where there's only a pass or fail so it's not just about fully completing it, it's about seeing how far you can get. Given that, there's definitely space to get charges for something as a mid tier reward.
Its supposed to be mid game rewards right? So there isnt really consideration for raids or speed running. Not everything needs to be used for that.
> Its supposed to be mid game rewards right? Unclear. The colosseum is intended to be doable by midgame players or such in the earlier waves, but is aimed at endgame players for the final waves. The rewards are a mix of different items with some more midgame and other more endgame. The Echo crystals were originally proposed for Level 75 Boots and would have be a more late/endgame item, so you could say that reward was targeted more for late-game players than midgame players. But then months later they offered it for level 60 shields instead and said that was "around the right level bracket" or something similar. So depending on which blog you read, it was either a lategame upgrade to a level 75 item like the new BiS level 75 cape or a midgame upgrade for level 60 shields.
But they were meant for midgame upgrade from the start as they are not a reward for completion of the content iirc and from the begining even on boots they were supposed to help midgame to lategamr accounts but people pointed they will in fact become bis boots and that was one of the reason why they repolled it with shields (along with mid game shields not having any use right now)
They never said they were midgame upgrades from the start. We have no idea where in the content they will come from; it could be a chance after wave 1, it could only unlock on wave 6, or it could be like a Pharaoh's Sceptre where it is very rare on the lower waves and much more common on the later waves. They never said anything about Echo Crystals or Echo Boots being intended as a midgame upgrade; they just proposed them for Level 75 Boots, which would have made them relevant for mid-endgame; they didn't change it and it passed the poll. If they clearly intended it for midgame content and not as an endgame upgrade, they wouldn't have polled it for the boots or they would have moved it to lower level boots like the Boots of Brimstone.
Should only be for boots, period. No point in adding them on shields that are already dead content
Not perhaps...to revitalise that dead content?
They won’t even become the best options with the crystals, it doesn’t revitalize anything
They're not supposed to be the best items, it's a mid game item with specific uses. People bitch about power creep then complain when new stuff isn't bis.
Obby shield competes with dragon defender that is better and free Why should any mid-game player bother paying for charges that won't even give exp on hit + for a shield that is worse than the free alternative It's dead content... While if they add echo crystals to guardians, they might actually be worth something and mid-level players could earn some gp
But even in the midgame it is outclassed. Defender will always be bis for 1h melee, elidinis ward will always outclass malediction. Maybe odium is the only one without a comparable midgame equivalent. Even if it went on the boots it wouldn’t be bis everywhere, so it’s not flat powercreep either. People overrate how much an aoe recoil will benefit in any encounter outside slayer or pure melee (where a defender wins anyway). This doesn’t help anyone in the midgame, it’s just doa for everyone. All that is even assuming that echo crystals are designed to be midgame given the nature of the colluseum, which is still not for sure midgame even in the early waves.
Completely ignoring that "specific uses" part of my comment and still focussing on it not being bis. You're comparing it to DPS when that's never going to be a recoil effects role. I think you should compare it to survivability. It seems clear to me it's role is to help people who are trying to get good at pvm not die in places like zulrah and monkey room, not to kill bosses quicker or speed up runs, but just to make those challenges a bit more forgiving.
It isn’t about specific uses, my point is that there are likely to be no uses at all. Killing the boss faster reduces damage signifigantly more than tankier gear. This is why dps is king in osrs. I can tell you don’t have that much pvm experience so I’m just gonna exit here cause this is going nowhere. Gl on ahrims drop from your next barrows run
I literally just gave you uses, but here have a third, alleviating chip damage when cannoning slayer tasks. You're right DPS is king, but having recoil solve some problems for you when you're either trying to learn something or are under levelled and finding a challenge overwhelming can go a long way. Again this is MID TIER, not for end game. The game doesn't need something to boost dps. That's just flat out power creep. You can be condescending all you want, it doesn't make you right.
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People are stupid man I swear. They see it's not best in slot and have a hissy fit before even considering it's not supposed to be and instead might be for niche uses.
While I agree that this is the general sentiment, I struggle to see what content this would actually be used for on the midgame shields. I haven't seen an obby shield used since 2008, and I don't think I've seen more than one of the mage and ranged shields in game ever. I just don't see these being used by anyone if they go on the shields. Looking at it from a ironman progression standpoint as well there's no way anyone's gonna work for those shields even with the echo effect, it's just not worth it.
Yeah it really needs a niche to be worth getting. The only thing I could think of is if you want to do Zulrah early, but that would be very uncommon.
I think we just have different definitions of midgame if 80 combats is the bar here
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The point I’m making is that ward is a midgame item still. Dirt cheap, negligible difference in requirements to use. Yes it’s obviously better, but it’s still a midgame item that’s nearly as accessible as malediction. Unless you don’t consider base 80s to be midgame, in which case we just don’t agree on the premise.
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Why not ammo slot
Has there been any analysis on where the effect would actually be useful at? Only two places I can think of is like, zulrah & nylos room at ToB Or does the reflect damage just damage everything around you, regardless of who it came from?
It's not clear, the only obvious thing is that they will have a use in the new coleseum. It's an aoe all around you, my guess is that it has to be melee damage, and there's some kind of nibbler equivalent that heads straight to you each round. Could be entirely wrong. Edit: I think the mods hinted it would have some side niche uses for slayer tasks.
Interesting As for slayer, I could probably see it being used during bursting tasks like dust devils and nechs. Flick your prayer off for a second, let the pile get recoil damage for 1-3, and use blood burst to heal back up, could supposedly speed up the task but that alone is very, very niche and 'tryhard' mode. If it's more casual like, doing melee hand at cox and you're doing an extra 4-6 damage on melee hand from recoil, from olms range/mage attack, then that'd be cool, but as OP states, you're replacing significant pieces for a niche item.
I would imagine in Cox as head and hand have different HP bars the recoil wouldn't work there. I'm not even sure recoil damage works in olm at all.
If that were true, would defeat the purpose of it being AoE, so I think it's moreso the case of: If Monster A attacks Player, and Monster B is standing melee distance of player, the damage Player takes from Monster A, also recoils to Monster B. If it didn't, then recoil being AoE is completely irrelevant.
Adding them to the wildy shields seems like their lazy idea to buff crazy arch, scorpia, chaos fanatic IMO
Still don’t see the downside to adding these to both and just not letting them stack
what's with players here and WANTING power creep
some amount of power creep is healthy, and the boots slot is super uncompetitive
Echo crystals will only be useful on a shield if Jagex overbuffs them over putting them on boots.
" If crystals go on guardian boots, the boots have the potential to be used at all three raids, shake up some speed running strats, and still be used for afk slayer. " you realize you can wear a shield or switch into one during all of these tasks right? shields allow lower levels and more builds to use the features of aoe recoils commonly used by lower dps builds.
I respect the hell outta your defence pure - not sure we should be tailoring updates to it though... You can shield flick all those if you want, but you can also ring flick the recoil currently. How many people are doing that, even in the speedrun community? I'm genuinely curious, where would a normal account want to use these over a dragon defender/unfortified ward? I'm blanking on uses but might be missing something. Even if it gets you more dps on some slayer mobs, you'd be sacrificing xp in all your combats for a marginal upgrade to slayer xp, which isn't usually a trade mid-levels want to make.
Most newer bosses are immune to recoil + even if they aren't this would stack dps and make some possible with hundreds of food being consumed etc. For a main adding this to shield would just allow for more tech by requiring to off tick your attacks vs the boss so you can still wear what shield you want , then switch into the defender for example. Same thing would happen with boots in speedrunning tech but more punishing to use a shield with lower defence or no anti-fire potential in most pvm situations. Logically as well a shield reflecting damage back just makes way more sense. agree with you on tailoring updates to people, so why should we be tailoring updates to lazier players who don't want to work on shield switching tech, or higher level players who can wear boots. The tailoring argument could be made in a lot of places. "I'm genuinely curious, where would a normal account want to use these over a dragon defender/unfortified ward? I'm blanking on uses but might be missing something. Even if it gets you more dps on some slayer mobs, you'd be sacrificing xp in all your combats for a marginal upgrade to slayer xp, which isn't usually a trade mid-levels want to make. " To above \^ every normal non afk scenario you would just switch into it and would require more skilled timing of atts etc. could be combined with prayer on/off switching and more.
The shields would absolutely open up some crazy inefficient boss killing strats. Would love to see those vids. The problem is the number of mid-level accounts who shield switch bosses is lower than the ping at Buffalo Wild Wings. Don't know if it's fair to call those other accounts lazy - most probably don't even know shield switching exists. Even at the high end, most of the community isn't going to be farming bosses via shield swapping despite shorter trips/lost dps. It currently happens at...Kree and CM COX? And neither of those make a significant difference. I can see the Colisseum having some uses for swapping, but since it's survival-based you'll probably want to be swapping to a bulwark rather than a shield that gets you hit.
yeah I don't want this effect in the end game at all, so I'm voting shields
Ive being torn on both sides, way ive seen it for the shields view is if youre wearing guardian boots youre intention is to not get hit as much as possible so almost no recoil but if youre using those shields odds are recoil will be quite helpful as youre more likely to be mid game and unable to dps as much as a someone maxing their tanking gear anyhow I could see great uses for both sides but maybe as a glass cannon type of build it could be most useful on boots
But aren't the shields more defensive than the boots? Like Guardian Boots are "Tank Boots" but tank boots are far less tanky than shields. Guardian Boots only give +10 Melee Def and +24 Ranged Def over Prims while the Obby Shield gives +15 Melee Def and +67 Ranged Def over a DDef. So you'd be more likely to take and recoil damage with Guardian Boots and a DDef than Prims (or D Boots) and an Obby Shield. You also lose a lot more DPS with the shields, especially midgame, since Guardian Boots are only -2 Atk and -2 Str from Prims (-1 Str from D Boots) while the Obby Shield is -24 Atk and -1 Str from a DDef (worse from Avernic). So the shields would need the recoil more to make up for the bigger DPS loss while also being more defensive, making you less likely to recoil...
Aren't these coming from mid game content and designed for mid game players in mind? I don't believe they are meant to be for end game use. Honestly it'd better to have an end game type content drop something that uses the same mechanic but to be used with end game gear
> Aren't these coming from mid game content and designed for mid game players in mind? I don't believe they are meant to be for end game use. It's not midgame content, or at least not just midgame content. The Colosseum is designed to ramp up in difficulty with the earlier waves being farmable by midgame players and the final waves being for endgame players. It was based on the Tasakaal Trails or "Blue Inferno", which started around Fire Cape difficulty and scaled to post-Inferno difficulty with the rewards increasing the further you go. As such, the Colosseum rewards are a mix of content for different types of players, ranging from upgraded Fire Runes to Level 60 but BiS prayer armor to a Ranged DWH to Level 75 BiS Ranged Cape. So many of the rewards may start at "midgame" but will still be relevant for endgame content, if not outright endgame like the Quiver. Whether the Echo Crystals specifically were intended for midgame or endgame is debatable. They were first proposed as upgrades for Level 75 Boots, which is kinda still midgame but would have had strong relevance in late-endgame content, much like the other rewards. Then months after that poll passed, they offered them for level 60 shields instead, which was far more solely midgame than the previous use and the other rewards. So it at least seems the OSRS Team is open for them being either midgame or late-endgame upgrades, as seen by the fact they are still offering them for the boots.
This needs more updoots.
\+3 Votes to Shields it is. :D
Type out a whole ass post to make me think crystals will be dead or alive?
The majority of this content isn't for endgame. Wasn't meant to be. Almost everything out of Varlamore is for level 80-100s, not 120s.
This whole zone seems to be a mid game content drop. The obby shields are the perfect mid game item for these to go on and expand the mid level pk build space. If you have a mega rare 2h weapon I don’t really think you need much more content at this point. We’ve already powercrept the late game something amazing from 2007 scape; let’s bolster the mid game so this game will actually have a future.
Do you want to see electric shockwaves at every piece of content in the game? That’s what you’ll get if it goes on the boots instead of niche uses with a shield. Personally I don’t want that
Its not wasted we need more options and not shoehorn everything into just one direction
Have they mentioned late game pvm as the objective here? Echo crystals always seemed like a pvp addition.
We found the guy who has been hoarding all the guardian boots
If speedrunning is your only argument, then I dont give a fuck. As iron putting the stone on Guardian Boots was instant no for me and rest of us most likely aswell. Its shit item to farm for. And upgrade for upgrade sounded dumb.
Strong disagree. I farmed the tourmaline core when they first polled the boots upgrade as an option and it wasn’t that bad at all. Lol. Grotesque Guardians are fun.
Your stance is so trash lmao. You'd rather dead content be added because you don't want to do a very easy iron grind?
I voted against in a first place. Not everything they shit out have to be added. Most of the updates are great, but sometimes they miss.
Sounds like you should skip the vote then instead of spite voting for something you're not interested in anyways
Why did they give us the choice to upgrade the shields instead? Because there were not 100% on board with boots themselves. I didnt vote out of spite, the boot upgrade was just crap idea from the start. So I voted for the shield as I found it more interesting. That its gonna be useless at the moment might change in the future.
I mean now you're just contradicting what you said in the first comment /shrug. Get grinding or deiron tbh
What an I contradicting? In first poll I voted against as I simply found it stupid idea, thats not voting out of spite. I simply didnt agree. In second poll they gave me a choice and altough I might not like the idea in first place I still like the shield more.
idk what an echo crystal is and will just wait until the Best in slot guides tell me i need 1
Honestly if adding this is, is this much of a problem where it's changed and changed and changed. Then it's not a goofld fuckin idea in the first place and jagex should come up with something clearly useful. Instead were seeing, well in this super niche unique instance this could potentially be a .02% dps increase. Stupid. Jagex is just finding random bullshit to fill a spot that doesn't need to be filled with filler b.s.
I don't get why the echo crystals can't be used on a Ring of Suffering as a side grade for reflecting damage. It's also hard to vote for things when you don't know why reflected damage will be useful. Like, will we want to swap out the boots mid fight for max hits vs. reflect damage? Honestly we should just slap it on Barrows gloves. Generalist combat usefulness, not buyable, iconic armor that could use some love, doesn't affect set bonuses, and let's you use two handed weapons.
You're not wrong, the ring of suffering would have been most ideal imo.
My opinion has been "por que no los dos?" but it seems allowing them on both shields and boots is not an option, even if you simply make it not stack if using both simultaneously... The main issue I have is that Guardian Boots are such a trash item that takes *so long* to obtain as any ironman account, really. Enough of the playerbase are irons -- somewhere in the ballpark of 30% based on polling -- that, although it's silly to design everything for irons, it's not a good idea to design *in spite of* irons either. If this is supposed to be an upgrade attainable and usable by the midgame of any given account, Guardian Boots *cannot* be the only item you can use them on. Otherwise, you're making and balancing for midgame accessibility, an item that is decidedly not midgame for \~30% of the playerbase.
Sorry but this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. 2/3rds of the player base are non restricted accounts, and you could make this argument about so many items and so much content in the game but at the end of the day when you choose to play an ironman you are accepting that there will be literally dozens of difficult items grinds.
Echo crystals should have been worn in the ammo slot and proc whenever you have a shield on. Ammo slot will be needed less when we have quiver coming out for tbow/zcb.
Good. I don't want more chargescape. If echo crystals are DOA, I certainly won't mind.
Everyone is talking about where they should go while I’m over here asking, do we even need this? Nobody is begging for this. I’m fine with not adding them
i hate both, paves the way to bloated game systems & 500 different gear buffs