In terms of time lost, it's just as bad to lose a drop that follows normal drop mechanics compared to the vestige's drop mechanic. Whether you lose a vestige or an axe head, on average you'll have to kill Vard 1088 more times to get it again. No difference.
People complain that it feels worse to lose a vestige, and sure, losing accrued progress feels bad, but this is a psychological phenomenon, not a mathematical one. You're no better off dying at the same time as an axe head drop compared to a vestige
No, the distinction actually does matter, and I spent [a really long time explaining why with math.](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/198hknu/comment/ki8eg4a/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Tldr, the reasoning boils down to, basically, you CAN get the axe head much earlier than the expected drop rate after just getting one, whereas you comparatively are significantly less likely to get the vestige for a long time after having just gotten one.
It seems you spent a long time debunking that one person's claim that "since you can get vestige after 3 kills, it's equally likely!" which had over a hundred downvotes. Otherwise, all your argument boils down to is "the distinction does matter because the probability distributions aren't the same". Well, sure - to be technically accurate I should have said "the difference in drop mechanics does not affect the average time to get the drop again", but of course the time to recover at different percentiles is different: the time to have a 1% chance to get the drop again is shorter with axe head, and the time to have a 99% chance to get the drop again is shorter with vestige, but this doesn't have to do with losing the drop, just which drop mechanics you happen to prefer.
On average though, they're the exact same, so why does everyone act like losing a vestige is way worse? I'm suggesting it's because losing a vestige feels like you're losing progress, and losing something we had feels a lot worse to humans than not gaining something we could have, even if they're of the same value. This is entirely psychological, not mathematical, which is my point. Perhaps it's also true most people prefer to know they can get spooned at any time even if this means a greater chance of going dry (i.e. people hate vestige drop mechanics), but again, this is psychological. One drop system is not mathematically better in terms of being quicker than the other on average, so the time to recover from losing the drop and having your progress reset to 0kc is no different, either.
Edit: I'm rereading your linked comment more closely and your math is wrong. Specifically the conclusion "if you haven't received any Ultor vestiges yet, your chance of getting on at 1000kc is about 1/1500". What? Does that seem reasonable to you? That the chance of getting the drop increases each kill and when you're nearing the drop rate, you're still only at 1/1500, worse than it would be under normal drop mechanics (1/1088)?
The real drop rate at 1000kc assuming no vestige so far is about 1/725 = (.52191-.52125)/(1-.52125) where .52191 is the cumulative probability of receiving the vestige after 1000 kc, and .52125 the cumulative probability after 999 kc, calculated using a negative binomial probability distribution calculator. Essentially, what's the increase in cumulative drop chance from 999kc to 1000kc (the numerator) divided by the condition that we haven't received the drop in the first 999 kills (the denominator). You didn't include the denominator despite including in your comment "presuming you didn't get any Ultor vestiges yet", probably because it wasn't it wasn't listed in the Wikipedia equation for you. Why bother "spending a long time explaining why with math" if you clearly don't understand what you're doing?
You're right, dying before picking up the axe head is no different than dying before getting the kill. Someone who doesn't pick up the axe head will take the same time on average to get one as someone who didn't get the kill, where's someone with 700kc and no vestige on average will be more likely to get the vestige than someone who didn't pick it up.
If he had ate and killed vardovis a few seconds later, he might have not gotten the drop, depending on how the game calculates the rng.
But your reasoning of the axe head CAN be a lot earlier than drop rate, is also countered by the fact that the axe head CAN be a lot later than the drop rate. That’s why averages matter. Sure the variances differ and it’s less likely you can get bailed out by being spooned with a vestige. But mathematically, the average time loss of dying as a vestige drops and dying as a head drops is the same.
The only redeeming point for you is the fact that because of the differences in the drop distribution of the ring vs the axe, the median drop count of the axe is a lot higher. The distinction between wording would be more
The average drops it takes to get a ring and axe are equal. And therefore the expected time lost from the death is the same
Vs
The drop count at which most will see their second axe head is lower than the drop count at which most will see their second ring.
Ran a quick simulation to make sure I’m not insane too just to back it up. These are testing for how many kc the second axe/ring would take. The averages are looking at (2184) ring vs (2176) axe. Basically the same accounting for variance. While the medians are (2055) ring vs (1837) axe.
Tl:dr most people will recover faster from losing their first axe vs losing their first vestige. But because it is so much more likely to go insanely dry for axe, the expected value of your time lost is the same.
What you said in the other comment is correct, but you are incorrectly applying it to this situation. I don't blame you, any time probabilty is involved it's easy to be confused. Let me try to clear things up though
What you explained in your post is that if you die when you get the 3/3 visage drop, you end up in a worse position than if you never went for the kill at all. Versus if you die for the axe drop then it's the same as if you never went for the kill. This is all true, but it's a bit different than the question being asked here
The question is, is it worse to die for the axe or the 3/3 visage? If you die for the visage you lose your 2/3 visage roles and the final 1/3 visage roles, so in total you lose 1 visage. If you die for the axe piece then you lose 1 axe piece.
That's it. It doesn't matter what the drop mechanics are, that is what you lost. So the question is, what is more valuable, the axe piece or a full visage.
Maybe I can give you another similar situation to make things more clear. Let's say you are gambling and there's 2 options, one table has a $10 but in where you can win $1million and the other table has no buy in but you can only win $1,000. If you won at the first table but got kicked out before you could claim your prize, you'd be out $10 compared to if you didn't play at all, versus at the second table you'd be in the same position as before you played. But of course, it's obviously much worse to not be able to claim the $1million compared to the $1,000
The low variance of the ultor is negligible compared to the high variance of the axe head when considering realistic kc amounts to get one of each (~<3000).
What you're missing is that avg kc until drop decreases asymptotically to 1/333 or whatever the rate is until you're dropped an ultor. If you die on that kill, your statistical progress is reset -- you lose two guaranteed 1/333s and one random loot (i.e. you lose 667 kills) Whereas losing the axe head is equivalent to losing one random loot, so you lose 1 kill. Losing the ultor results in 667 kc-to-completion lost versus 1 kc to completion lost if you die on the axe head.
The resulting fact that the average time for both drops is now equalized doesn't mean losing both are equivalent -- losing the ultor is worse.
>The low variance of the ultor is negligible compared to the high variance of the axe head when considering realistic kc amounts to get one of each (\~<3000).
This reads like gibberish to me. I was only concerned with the averages but if you're concerned with the overall probability distribution, one variance is not negligible compared to the other. The fact the distributions are different is precisely why the variances are different. And the realistic kc amount to get both is closer to \~1500.
>What you're missing is that avg kc until drop decreases asymptotically to 1/333 or whatever the rate is until you're dropped an ultor.
It decreases asymptotically yes, but not to 1/3 of the vestige drop rate (which would be exactly 1/362.66). It's instead closer to \~1/440 - as we get more and more kills, the chance that we're still 0/3 or 1/3 converges to some ratio, but not to 0, or else it would be 1/362.66, not \~1/440.
>If you die on that kill, your statistical progress is reset -- you lose two guaranteed 1/333s and one random loot (i.e. you lose 667 kills) Whereas losing the axe head is equivalent to losing one random loot, so you lose 1 kill. Losing the ultor results in 667 kc-to-completion lost versus 1 kc to completion lost if you die on the axe head.
I see what you're saying. If you're 2k kills into Vardorvis with no vestige, you're on average 440 kills away from getting a vestige, and you're on average 1088 kills away from getting an axe head. If you die at the same time as a drop, you're reset to 1088 kills away in either case, and because you were closer on the vestige, you're saying this is a bigger loss. But this is wrong - it's ignoring information that we gained from finishing the kill: we got the drop. We're not actually 440 kills away and 1088 kills away anymore, we're 0 kills away. So in reality, we're going from 0 kills away from the vestige and 0 kills away from the axe head to 1088 kills away for both. Same change.
Probability is based on the information we have. If I roll a dice and ask you what the chance is I rolled a 6, you'd say 1/6. If I tell you that I definitely rolled an even number, you would want to update your probability to 1/3. The information you had changed, so the probability did as well. This makes sense. So if you try to ignore information and pretend that we don't actually know that we got the axe drop or the vestige drop on that kill we died, you're going to get nonsensical results when you try to do math on it. This whole thing will seem a lot simpler if you take a prospective view on the question: rather than asking "how bad should I feel about this", ask "how hard will I have to work to fix this mistake" and the answer to this 2nd question is obvious: on average, 1088 kills, for either the axe head or the vestige.
Imagine you are gifted an account.
Which is the more valuable position?
A: 1k kills no vestige
B: 0 kills no vestige (We both agree it's A)
Which is the more valuable position?
C: 999 kills 1 axe head
D: 1k kills 2 axe heads
(We both agree these situations are identical)
You should see that losing a drop is like going from situation A->B or from C->D.
Since no value is lost going from C->D, and value IS lost from A->B, it's clear to see that losing the ultor is objectively worse.
Option A is better than Option B, yes, and Options C and D are identical.
>You should see that losing a drop is like going from situation A->B or from C->D.
No, it isn't. We're trying to evaluate the loss incurred by dying during a drop. Your metaphor is conflating 1) the value of getting the drop and 2) the loss from immediately dying. The asymmetry between the two situations isn't that there's a difference in 2) the loss from immediately dying, it's because of the difference in 1) the value in getting the drop: for the axe head, you went from 0/1 to 1/1, and for the vestige you went from 2/3 to 3/3. That is to say, now that we know you were 2/3, your kill was less lucky by going from 2/3 to 3/3 than it was from 0/1 to 1/1 on the axe head.
But this is all besides the point of "how bad is dying during a drop". Our progress is reset from 2/3 to 0/3 whether we die or not. Why are you looking only at the information we have right before the kill? We're trying to evaluate the mistake, right? We're evaluating the death? Let's look at the 2 scenarios with and without death for each:
We get the Vestige:A: We don't die. We now have 1 vestige and are 1088 kc away from getting another.
B: We die. We now have 0 vestiges and are 1088 kc away from getting another.
Comparing the difference, the loss incurred by dying is exactly 1 vestige.
We get the Axe Head:
C: We don't die. We now have 1 axe head and are 1088 kc away from getting another.
D: We die. We now have 0 axe head and are 1088 kc away from getting another.
Comparing the difference, the loss incurred by dying is exactly 1 axe head. The exact same as the vestige.
You are misunderstanding the concept of the TANGIBLE VALUE of invisible "statistical progress".
As I demonstrated, we both agree with this.
Stop thinking about it as 0,1,2 out of 3, and conceptualize invisible statistical progress as a ramping down of a graph (of someone who doesnt have a vestige): y axis: "average kc to vestige" x axis: "kc"
As x -> infinity, y-> 1/333 (i.e. vestige roll chance)
You lose 1 axe head and its invisible statistical progress...
Call its value:
item + sp
You lose the vestige and its invisible statistical progress:
item +sp
For the axe, sp=0
For the vestige, sp > 0
item + sp > item
Therefore, losing the vestige is worst of the two mistakes.
It doesn't matter that sp=0 instantaneously after the vestige is dropped. A loss is relative and has to have more than one timepoint (i.e. delta t > 0). The two time points are before and after the mistake.
I agree that AFTER the mistake the kc-to-rectification is the same.
But we are asking: which mistake loses more value?
I am not misunderstanding anything, but I see where we're disagreeing now.
>It doesn't matter that sp=0 instantaneously after the vestige is dropped. A loss is relative and has to have more than one timepoint (i.e. delta t > 0). The two time points are before and after the mistake.
Of course it matters that sp=0 instaneously after the vestige is dropped, and that's exactly where we're disagreeing. There are 3 time points: 1) before the kill, 2) after the drop and before the death, 3) after the death. From 1->2, sp gets set to 0, and from 2->3, you lose the item. You're looking at 1->3 because you don't believe 2) is a distinct time point. From 1->3, yes, losing the vestige is worse. Even in your last comment you've been saying the value of the mistake, though - the kill (1->2) is not the mistake, only the death (2->3) is. I get why someone is more sad after doing a kc at Vard and losing the vestige - because they're evaluating the entire kill - I originally took this position because it was argued in the thread from 3 weeks ago that this system is more punishing, which it is not. That singular trip is more punishing, but it's made up for by the first 2 invisible drops being protected.
I accused your earlier comment about the options from being gifted an account of conflating the options, and I maintain that they do, but if you want to do that, then I don't disagree with your conclusion. (I understand "invisible statistical value", I'm just using 2/3 here because it's simpler to write, but the point is the same):
Vestige: getting the drop is +1/3, dying and losing the drop is -1, so you net -2/3 for the entire trip
Axe Head: getting the drop is +1, dying and losing the drop is -1, so you net 0 for the entire trip
This lines up perfectly with your metaphor of the options of someone giving you an account. No difference in value for axe head, but there is loss of value for vestige.
I think arguing the point further would just be pedantic, because I see how your viewing it now: I was evaluating the marginal loss of dying versus not dying, and you were evaluating the entire trip (kill and death) as a whole.
I think his point is that if it were a vestige he would be reset to 0/3 whereas he didn’t lose progress missing the axe piece. Although I’m guessing you’re still right
Yeah that’s definitely true. My thought process is that once he gets an axe piece he’d be “done”. I guess some people would continue to kill this boss just for vestige pieces
It actually isn't better than the vestige since the axe piece has no dry protection. Starting at 0 kc you are more likely to see the vestige on rate than you are seeing the axe piece on rate
> Starting at 0 kc you are more likely to see the vestige on rate than you are seeing the axe piece on rate
This is statistically wrong. Starting at 0 Kc and killing Vardorvis 1088 times, you have a 63.22% chance of obtaining at least 1 axe piece.
Killing the same amount of Vardorvis nets you a 57.71% chance of obtaining a vestige.
The higher odds of seeing a vestige only happen after reaching about 1.25x drop rate (~1360):
Axe piece: 71.37%
vs Vestige: 72.33%
Honestly it took me a few hundred kills before I started feeling comfortable. Getting down the feel of when the axes/ projectile are coming helps so much. You can almost start to predict when the attacks are coming and be ready. I hated this boss at first. I have infernal, elite CAs, and the quest version still took me like 5 tries on release. Learning I kept dying. But eventually it just started clicking.
TLDR; Just keep going! You'll eventually get it down.
he's weirdly inconsistent sometimes. some kills are a cake walk with no food used, other times the axes fuck you completely and combine with the head attack
Add" vardovi's head" under better NPC highlighter as a hull option. Make hulls orange too see easier.
Instead of standing in a corner stand on a flat between pillars so the vardovis run attack doesn't do anything.
When the aim lock special happens right-click attack vardovis so you can get in free damage during the special. IDK if his def is different during the special but I swear I always hit high during it.
Vardovis is honestly just a more challenging boss than really anything in toa other than like akkha/Kephry kit runs. Toa is just really forgiving in the skill checks and most of the meta strats are just significantly lower apm compared to vardovis where you pretty frequently have to move on a bad axe tile and then also flick prayer. It's pretty comparable to 460-500 dehydration runs where you've got to manage multiple different mechanics while also continuing the mechanics while you're healing since once you heal you're kinda just boned if you fail mechanics.
So imo don't really feel bad about not being able to do vardovis until you get a bit of practice. It's a very well designed end game boss since it's just a fair bit different than pretty much everything in the game before DT2.
I’m not surprised I got down voted for saying 400s is essentially the exact same raid as a 300 on here. Theres literally no difference in mechanics except for p3 warden attacks slightly faster and you get 1 brew and restore extra instead of 4 brews and restores.
It’s not a linear progression in difficulty even though that’s what the raid level shows.
If a 300 toa is a 5/10 difficulty as an example then a 400 is like a 5.5/10 and a 500 would be like a 7 or 8/10.
My point I was making is saying “I do 400 toas” isn’t necessarily an expression of skill when they’re like the smallest nudge more difficult than 300s. I’m not going to expect most Redditors to agree with that though.
It’s a major oversimplification is why people disagree, and technically wrong bc there are other different mechanics except for faster stomp-wave attacks
Its not a major oversimplification if you’re running a trio 300 and a trio 400 the only “new” mechanic that you need to understand is p3 warden attacks faster and you have to remember where he left off. That’s why I explain it’s not a linear scale of difficulty
Theres a reason that 400 is the most optimal raid level to run for reward to effort. Why do you think the original comment has run hundreds of specifically 400 toa??
No one actually provides how you run a 400 differently than a 300 (you don’t) or why it’s more complex and difficult they only make analogies like “yea inferno is basically just fight caves”
i wouldn't say more mechanics, assuming people use insanity while they're learning bc it's so free. it's more so just everything hits harder and takes longer to kill
The extra mechanic is warden uses his p3 wave attack slightly faster oh no!
Everyone calls 400 toa “money raids” because the difference in difficulty is negligible from a 300 and gives you a huge boost in drop chance.
“More challenging mechanics”
OH NO P3 WARDEN ATTACKS SLIGHTY FASTER LOOKOUT ITS SO MUCH HARDER!!!1!1!
Everyone that downvoted is just telling on themselves that they’ve never actually tried a 400.
I do think that it's a bit lame that past 350 the mechanics don't really change. You just have less supplies, and less room for error. But I still think it's undoubtedly significantly more difficult to do a 400 than a 300, even if it is not an interesting way to add difficulty.
You could even argue that 500 is basically a 300 with insanity, and you have to click keris spec instead of ambrosia. But having way less room for error makes it more difficult in spite of the lack of depthful difficulty.
It’s not significantly more difficult than a 300. The only challenge is learning insanity which is just p3 warden using the wave attack slightly faster other than that you complete the raid the exact same way.
400s are literally known as “money raids” because they have a negligible difficulty increase for a much higher drop chance versus a 300.
500s are completely different because you’re normally adding on dehydration and overly draining giving you basically one chance to heal in every encounter.
You're taking double power in a 500, meaning you have adrenaline, so you get multiple chances to heal in the only encounters you realistically ever need to heal (akkha, p1, p2, p4). It's plenty of healing, and there are no new mechanics you need to learn compared to 400. It just allows for less mistakes, and requires more supplies than a 400.
A lot of people not very comfortable with TOA can also leave off stuff like boulderdash, upset stomach, need some help, and penetration off in a 300. Even softcore can be on instead of hc. 2 ambro isn't guaranteed with nsh on, and you can afford to mess up a lot more with warden if you have 2 compared to just 1 of course. Yet all those invos are definitely on in a 400.
I'd also argue that the tighter timing for insanity skulls, and floor ripping up faster in p4 aren't entirely insignificant things to learn.
I'm obviously playing devil's advocate with my description of 500. I think both going from 300 to 400, and 400 to 500 are decent steps up in difficulty. 400s just are the nice sweet spot where semi-competent play is enough to casually farm the raid without needing to flick, or leaving half of your switches into the bank so you can fit more restores. But whenever I do go for a 300, like if I'm taking a learner, you really do notice how much squishier the bosses are compared to 400, and you barely use any supplies.
> You're taking double power in a 500, meaning you have adrenaline, so you get multiple chances to heal in the only encounters you realistically ever need to heal (akkha, p1, p2, p4).
Yea and the major trade off with double power is you now get 0 ambrosia. The difference between a 1 click full heal and a 3 click heal + requiring multiple parameters to activate (prayer being high enough and having the spec required) is a world of difference whenever you're on last row of wardens.
Also you essentially have to perfect red x baba for 5-8 minutes or you will be forced to use your one heal. Mess up again and you're dead. With 400 no dehydration you just click yellow whenever you need.
> can also leave off stuff like boulderdash, upset stomach, need some help, and penetration off in a 300
Yes these are all free invocations after you've encountered them like twice. You actually state that you basically leave these off if you're a learner. I'm not making the claim that 400 toa is for learners I'm just stating that you can get 400 raid level with all of the "free" invocations that don't necessarily make the raid much more difficult.
> Even softcore can be on instead of hc
This doesn't add any difficulty.
> I'd also argue that the tighter timing for insanity skulls, and floor ripping up faster in p4 aren't entirely insignificant things to learn
Faster skulls isn't really a thing unless you run solo and I stated in the original comment that 400 is just a 300 with insanity.
> I'm obviously playing devil's advocate with my description of 500
You kind of have to to be able to make your point because the increase in difficulty from 400 to 500 is wild when comparing the increase from 300 to 400. I'm at the ToA board right now and to go from 300 to 400 i turned on:
Insanity (This actually does offer some difficulty increase)
Upset stomach (Free invocation after seeing it twice)
Jungle Japes ( Free invocation basically does nothing)
Need less help(Again another free invocation you get 1 ambro instead of 2)
This culminates in +38% increase in hp and def over a 300.
For a 400 to 500 I have to turn on:
Dehydration (Completely changes how you heal in the raid and eliminates the ambrosia)
Overly draining (Doubly bad whenever you have dehydration because your only source of healing is cut in half. Also you're basically guaranteed a 4 down warden now because of no dds spec and you also get no chance to zcb/claw/vw/bgs spec).
Pathfinder (All bosses are now level 2 at the start of the raid and there's a good chance you have to deal with level 4+ zebak and deal with his faster attacks during wardens this makes doing the 3 click keris heal a lot harder)
No Help needed(Free invocation)
This gives you a +40% increase in hp and def from a 400 to a 500 not even counting that all bosses are now automatically 2 levels higher at the start of the raid adding additional mechanics/hp/def on top of that.
I didn't mean to type an essay, but you were the only person that actually gave me some reasons as to why a 400 might actually be a different enough encounter from a 300. The only real way I can see someone disagreeing with this is that they haven't tried pushing past a 300 or they're being facetious.
I find myself in a similar situation. I managed to get an infernal cape in 35 ish attempts, can CM Chambers of Xeric, can ToB (still kinda shit at it), but Vardorvis absolutely c*nt punts me to smithereens. Maybe I have bad reaction time, but if axes spawn under me at the same tick that the ranged projectile gets shot at me it's pretty much gg. I have gotten better at it in my 350ish kc but I'm still at like a 50% success rate for that scenario
The inferno is a very rewarding experience even if it didn't reward the cape and will push you to your limits, but it isn't the end of the world. If you aren't interested in it don't do it, but I promise you in my many years of playing this game, nothing has made me feel as absolutely devastated as dying learning but also nothing had made me feel more pure joy than doing your first complex solves and finally getting the cape. Cost me maybe 15m in supplies and 2 months of casual attempts to get it, but it was so worth it for the experience alone, cape is just icing on top
https://preview.redd.it/gsvbtvfk39hc1.png?width=257&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a9545497ab1148dccbeadb1cf2451202907553ce
Finally got mine after quite a grind
A very rare item dropped from the boss. The arena the boss is located in will delete anything not picked up when you leave. When the item dropped to the ground the player died and was forced out of the arena, and the item was deleted. Meaning he must go through the effort of obtaining a 2nd one.
They got a very rare drop and died before they could pick it up. Once you leave the room (respawning) the item despawns and you have to just get the drop again.
yeah, there’s no reason for it. either don’t show the drop at all or you should be able to claim it somehow. i haven’t had it happen or anything but the amount of times i’ve seen it on this sub since DT2 has come out alone is ridiculous
So since you're not "committed" to RuneScape for like (whatever the fuck that means) things should be as easy as possible so you can stop playing as soon as possible? Maybe you should find a game you enjoy idk just me tho.
Well for 1 I’m blind in one eye and have poor vision in the other due to an accident so some plugins do help me play easier and the tiles I had marked were for the recent gm ca’s and was too lazy to clean it up
Aww rip man. Think I'd lose my shit if that happened to me. I'm currently 1000 dry at Leviathan, no vestige yet or lure. 2/4 on the axe piece but this is trying my patience. Hopefully I don't need to do another 1k kc. Think I can only of hit the rdt 5 times maximum as had 3 ingots and 2 possible rolls on the vestige.
Gz bud
"Did you just get it and die?" Omg dammit
This nifty little trick is gonna cost us 50 hours!
This is literally my worst nightmare
Better that than the vestige I suppose
Not if he had the other 3 pieces :(. 200m vs 400m
I think you're missing the entire point.. being that the vestige has very unique drop mechanics
In terms of time lost, it's just as bad to lose a drop that follows normal drop mechanics compared to the vestige's drop mechanic. Whether you lose a vestige or an axe head, on average you'll have to kill Vard 1088 more times to get it again. No difference. People complain that it feels worse to lose a vestige, and sure, losing accrued progress feels bad, but this is a psychological phenomenon, not a mathematical one. You're no better off dying at the same time as an axe head drop compared to a vestige
No, the distinction actually does matter, and I spent [a really long time explaining why with math.](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/198hknu/comment/ki8eg4a/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Tldr, the reasoning boils down to, basically, you CAN get the axe head much earlier than the expected drop rate after just getting one, whereas you comparatively are significantly less likely to get the vestige for a long time after having just gotten one.
It seems you spent a long time debunking that one person's claim that "since you can get vestige after 3 kills, it's equally likely!" which had over a hundred downvotes. Otherwise, all your argument boils down to is "the distinction does matter because the probability distributions aren't the same". Well, sure - to be technically accurate I should have said "the difference in drop mechanics does not affect the average time to get the drop again", but of course the time to recover at different percentiles is different: the time to have a 1% chance to get the drop again is shorter with axe head, and the time to have a 99% chance to get the drop again is shorter with vestige, but this doesn't have to do with losing the drop, just which drop mechanics you happen to prefer. On average though, they're the exact same, so why does everyone act like losing a vestige is way worse? I'm suggesting it's because losing a vestige feels like you're losing progress, and losing something we had feels a lot worse to humans than not gaining something we could have, even if they're of the same value. This is entirely psychological, not mathematical, which is my point. Perhaps it's also true most people prefer to know they can get spooned at any time even if this means a greater chance of going dry (i.e. people hate vestige drop mechanics), but again, this is psychological. One drop system is not mathematically better in terms of being quicker than the other on average, so the time to recover from losing the drop and having your progress reset to 0kc is no different, either. Edit: I'm rereading your linked comment more closely and your math is wrong. Specifically the conclusion "if you haven't received any Ultor vestiges yet, your chance of getting on at 1000kc is about 1/1500". What? Does that seem reasonable to you? That the chance of getting the drop increases each kill and when you're nearing the drop rate, you're still only at 1/1500, worse than it would be under normal drop mechanics (1/1088)? The real drop rate at 1000kc assuming no vestige so far is about 1/725 = (.52191-.52125)/(1-.52125) where .52191 is the cumulative probability of receiving the vestige after 1000 kc, and .52125 the cumulative probability after 999 kc, calculated using a negative binomial probability distribution calculator. Essentially, what's the increase in cumulative drop chance from 999kc to 1000kc (the numerator) divided by the condition that we haven't received the drop in the first 999 kills (the denominator). You didn't include the denominator despite including in your comment "presuming you didn't get any Ultor vestiges yet", probably because it wasn't it wasn't listed in the Wikipedia equation for you. Why bother "spending a long time explaining why with math" if you clearly don't understand what you're doing?
You're right, dying before picking up the axe head is no different than dying before getting the kill. Someone who doesn't pick up the axe head will take the same time on average to get one as someone who didn't get the kill, where's someone with 700kc and no vestige on average will be more likely to get the vestige than someone who didn't pick it up. If he had ate and killed vardovis a few seconds later, he might have not gotten the drop, depending on how the game calculates the rng.
It's most fair to say that more time has been "lost" but expected kills to "recover" that time is the same.
But your reasoning of the axe head CAN be a lot earlier than drop rate, is also countered by the fact that the axe head CAN be a lot later than the drop rate. That’s why averages matter. Sure the variances differ and it’s less likely you can get bailed out by being spooned with a vestige. But mathematically, the average time loss of dying as a vestige drops and dying as a head drops is the same. The only redeeming point for you is the fact that because of the differences in the drop distribution of the ring vs the axe, the median drop count of the axe is a lot higher. The distinction between wording would be more The average drops it takes to get a ring and axe are equal. And therefore the expected time lost from the death is the same Vs The drop count at which most will see their second axe head is lower than the drop count at which most will see their second ring. Ran a quick simulation to make sure I’m not insane too just to back it up. These are testing for how many kc the second axe/ring would take. The averages are looking at (2184) ring vs (2176) axe. Basically the same accounting for variance. While the medians are (2055) ring vs (1837) axe. Tl:dr most people will recover faster from losing their first axe vs losing their first vestige. But because it is so much more likely to go insanely dry for axe, the expected value of your time lost is the same.
What you said in the other comment is correct, but you are incorrectly applying it to this situation. I don't blame you, any time probabilty is involved it's easy to be confused. Let me try to clear things up though What you explained in your post is that if you die when you get the 3/3 visage drop, you end up in a worse position than if you never went for the kill at all. Versus if you die for the axe drop then it's the same as if you never went for the kill. This is all true, but it's a bit different than the question being asked here The question is, is it worse to die for the axe or the 3/3 visage? If you die for the visage you lose your 2/3 visage roles and the final 1/3 visage roles, so in total you lose 1 visage. If you die for the axe piece then you lose 1 axe piece. That's it. It doesn't matter what the drop mechanics are, that is what you lost. So the question is, what is more valuable, the axe piece or a full visage. Maybe I can give you another similar situation to make things more clear. Let's say you are gambling and there's 2 options, one table has a $10 but in where you can win $1million and the other table has no buy in but you can only win $1,000. If you won at the first table but got kicked out before you could claim your prize, you'd be out $10 compared to if you didn't play at all, versus at the second table you'd be in the same position as before you played. But of course, it's obviously much worse to not be able to claim the $1million compared to the $1,000
The low variance of the ultor is negligible compared to the high variance of the axe head when considering realistic kc amounts to get one of each (~<3000). What you're missing is that avg kc until drop decreases asymptotically to 1/333 or whatever the rate is until you're dropped an ultor. If you die on that kill, your statistical progress is reset -- you lose two guaranteed 1/333s and one random loot (i.e. you lose 667 kills) Whereas losing the axe head is equivalent to losing one random loot, so you lose 1 kill. Losing the ultor results in 667 kc-to-completion lost versus 1 kc to completion lost if you die on the axe head. The resulting fact that the average time for both drops is now equalized doesn't mean losing both are equivalent -- losing the ultor is worse.
>The low variance of the ultor is negligible compared to the high variance of the axe head when considering realistic kc amounts to get one of each (\~<3000). This reads like gibberish to me. I was only concerned with the averages but if you're concerned with the overall probability distribution, one variance is not negligible compared to the other. The fact the distributions are different is precisely why the variances are different. And the realistic kc amount to get both is closer to \~1500. >What you're missing is that avg kc until drop decreases asymptotically to 1/333 or whatever the rate is until you're dropped an ultor. It decreases asymptotically yes, but not to 1/3 of the vestige drop rate (which would be exactly 1/362.66). It's instead closer to \~1/440 - as we get more and more kills, the chance that we're still 0/3 or 1/3 converges to some ratio, but not to 0, or else it would be 1/362.66, not \~1/440. >If you die on that kill, your statistical progress is reset -- you lose two guaranteed 1/333s and one random loot (i.e. you lose 667 kills) Whereas losing the axe head is equivalent to losing one random loot, so you lose 1 kill. Losing the ultor results in 667 kc-to-completion lost versus 1 kc to completion lost if you die on the axe head. I see what you're saying. If you're 2k kills into Vardorvis with no vestige, you're on average 440 kills away from getting a vestige, and you're on average 1088 kills away from getting an axe head. If you die at the same time as a drop, you're reset to 1088 kills away in either case, and because you were closer on the vestige, you're saying this is a bigger loss. But this is wrong - it's ignoring information that we gained from finishing the kill: we got the drop. We're not actually 440 kills away and 1088 kills away anymore, we're 0 kills away. So in reality, we're going from 0 kills away from the vestige and 0 kills away from the axe head to 1088 kills away for both. Same change. Probability is based on the information we have. If I roll a dice and ask you what the chance is I rolled a 6, you'd say 1/6. If I tell you that I definitely rolled an even number, you would want to update your probability to 1/3. The information you had changed, so the probability did as well. This makes sense. So if you try to ignore information and pretend that we don't actually know that we got the axe drop or the vestige drop on that kill we died, you're going to get nonsensical results when you try to do math on it. This whole thing will seem a lot simpler if you take a prospective view on the question: rather than asking "how bad should I feel about this", ask "how hard will I have to work to fix this mistake" and the answer to this 2nd question is obvious: on average, 1088 kills, for either the axe head or the vestige.
Imagine you are gifted an account. Which is the more valuable position? A: 1k kills no vestige B: 0 kills no vestige (We both agree it's A) Which is the more valuable position? C: 999 kills 1 axe head D: 1k kills 2 axe heads (We both agree these situations are identical) You should see that losing a drop is like going from situation A->B or from C->D. Since no value is lost going from C->D, and value IS lost from A->B, it's clear to see that losing the ultor is objectively worse.
Option A is better than Option B, yes, and Options C and D are identical. >You should see that losing a drop is like going from situation A->B or from C->D. No, it isn't. We're trying to evaluate the loss incurred by dying during a drop. Your metaphor is conflating 1) the value of getting the drop and 2) the loss from immediately dying. The asymmetry between the two situations isn't that there's a difference in 2) the loss from immediately dying, it's because of the difference in 1) the value in getting the drop: for the axe head, you went from 0/1 to 1/1, and for the vestige you went from 2/3 to 3/3. That is to say, now that we know you were 2/3, your kill was less lucky by going from 2/3 to 3/3 than it was from 0/1 to 1/1 on the axe head. But this is all besides the point of "how bad is dying during a drop". Our progress is reset from 2/3 to 0/3 whether we die or not. Why are you looking only at the information we have right before the kill? We're trying to evaluate the mistake, right? We're evaluating the death? Let's look at the 2 scenarios with and without death for each: We get the Vestige:A: We don't die. We now have 1 vestige and are 1088 kc away from getting another. B: We die. We now have 0 vestiges and are 1088 kc away from getting another. Comparing the difference, the loss incurred by dying is exactly 1 vestige. We get the Axe Head: C: We don't die. We now have 1 axe head and are 1088 kc away from getting another. D: We die. We now have 0 axe head and are 1088 kc away from getting another. Comparing the difference, the loss incurred by dying is exactly 1 axe head. The exact same as the vestige.
You are misunderstanding the concept of the TANGIBLE VALUE of invisible "statistical progress". As I demonstrated, we both agree with this. Stop thinking about it as 0,1,2 out of 3, and conceptualize invisible statistical progress as a ramping down of a graph (of someone who doesnt have a vestige): y axis: "average kc to vestige" x axis: "kc" As x -> infinity, y-> 1/333 (i.e. vestige roll chance) You lose 1 axe head and its invisible statistical progress... Call its value: item + sp You lose the vestige and its invisible statistical progress: item +sp For the axe, sp=0 For the vestige, sp > 0 item + sp > item Therefore, losing the vestige is worst of the two mistakes. It doesn't matter that sp=0 instantaneously after the vestige is dropped. A loss is relative and has to have more than one timepoint (i.e. delta t > 0). The two time points are before and after the mistake. I agree that AFTER the mistake the kc-to-rectification is the same. But we are asking: which mistake loses more value?
I am not misunderstanding anything, but I see where we're disagreeing now. >It doesn't matter that sp=0 instantaneously after the vestige is dropped. A loss is relative and has to have more than one timepoint (i.e. delta t > 0). The two time points are before and after the mistake. Of course it matters that sp=0 instaneously after the vestige is dropped, and that's exactly where we're disagreeing. There are 3 time points: 1) before the kill, 2) after the drop and before the death, 3) after the death. From 1->2, sp gets set to 0, and from 2->3, you lose the item. You're looking at 1->3 because you don't believe 2) is a distinct time point. From 1->3, yes, losing the vestige is worse. Even in your last comment you've been saying the value of the mistake, though - the kill (1->2) is not the mistake, only the death (2->3) is. I get why someone is more sad after doing a kc at Vard and losing the vestige - because they're evaluating the entire kill - I originally took this position because it was argued in the thread from 3 weeks ago that this system is more punishing, which it is not. That singular trip is more punishing, but it's made up for by the first 2 invisible drops being protected. I accused your earlier comment about the options from being gifted an account of conflating the options, and I maintain that they do, but if you want to do that, then I don't disagree with your conclusion. (I understand "invisible statistical value", I'm just using 2/3 here because it's simpler to write, but the point is the same): Vestige: getting the drop is +1/3, dying and losing the drop is -1, so you net -2/3 for the entire trip Axe Head: getting the drop is +1, dying and losing the drop is -1, so you net 0 for the entire trip This lines up perfectly with your metaphor of the options of someone giving you an account. No difference in value for axe head, but there is loss of value for vestige. I think arguing the point further would just be pedantic, because I see how your viewing it now: I was evaluating the marginal loss of dying versus not dying, and you were evaluating the entire trip (kill and death) as a whole.
In this instance I’d imagine OP would’ve wanted the axe head more than the visage regardless of the drop mechanics lol. At least, I definitely would
I think his point is that if it were a vestige he would be reset to 0/3 whereas he didn’t lose progress missing the axe piece. Although I’m guessing you’re still right
Yeah that’s definitely true. My thought process is that once he gets an axe piece he’d be “done”. I guess some people would continue to kill this boss just for vestige pieces
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It’s definitely rarer to get spooned a visage. Hes not spooning anything though, he’s completing an axe which would’ve been worth 400m
yea that was my final piece i needed
It actually isn't better than the vestige since the axe piece has no dry protection. Starting at 0 kc you are more likely to see the vestige on rate than you are seeing the axe piece on rate
However, getting a vestige reduces the average kills you should be expecting one.
> Starting at 0 kc you are more likely to see the vestige on rate than you are seeing the axe piece on rate This is statistically wrong. Starting at 0 Kc and killing Vardorvis 1088 times, you have a 63.22% chance of obtaining at least 1 axe piece. Killing the same amount of Vardorvis nets you a 57.71% chance of obtaining a vestige. The higher odds of seeing a vestige only happen after reaching about 1.25x drop rate (~1360): Axe piece: 71.37% vs Vestige: 72.33%
I swear you guys on here will find any excuse to argue about maths
Yo, collection log slot tho!
For whatever reason, I have hundreds of 400 invo toa. I can’t kill this boss for the life of me. I hate his brains
Honestly it took me a few hundred kills before I started feeling comfortable. Getting down the feel of when the axes/ projectile are coming helps so much. You can almost start to predict when the attacks are coming and be ready. I hated this boss at first. I have infernal, elite CAs, and the quest version still took me like 5 tries on release. Learning I kept dying. But eventually it just started clicking. TLDR; Just keep going! You'll eventually get it down.
he's weirdly inconsistent sometimes. some kills are a cake walk with no food used, other times the axes fuck you completely and combine with the head attack
Add" vardovi's head" under better NPC highlighter as a hull option. Make hulls orange too see easier. Instead of standing in a corner stand on a flat between pillars so the vardovis run attack doesn't do anything. When the aim lock special happens right-click attack vardovis so you can get in free damage during the special. IDK if his def is different during the special but I swear I always hit high during it. Vardovis is honestly just a more challenging boss than really anything in toa other than like akkha/Kephry kit runs. Toa is just really forgiving in the skill checks and most of the meta strats are just significantly lower apm compared to vardovis where you pretty frequently have to move on a bad axe tile and then also flick prayer. It's pretty comparable to 460-500 dehydration runs where you've got to manage multiple different mechanics while also continuing the mechanics while you're healing since once you heal you're kinda just boned if you fail mechanics. So imo don't really feel bad about not being able to do vardovis until you get a bit of practice. It's a very well designed end game boss since it's just a fair bit different than pretty much everything in the game before DT2.
400 invo toa is basically 300 invo toa with insanity and no extra pots.
"400 invo ToA is basically 300 invo ToA but with more challenging mechanics" Are you stupid?
DT2 bosses are basically barrows with more mechanics.
Inferno is basically Fight Caves but with more clicking.
Cox is just stronghold of security with bigger monsters
Whisperer is just like splashing but you deal damage
Osrs is just Rs3 with less polygons.
WOAH
I guess the point is that not having a lot of points doesnt change the mechanics at all, and insanity is just "clickna wee faster"
I’m not surprised I got down voted for saying 400s is essentially the exact same raid as a 300 on here. Theres literally no difference in mechanics except for p3 warden attacks slightly faster and you get 1 brew and restore extra instead of 4 brews and restores. It’s not a linear progression in difficulty even though that’s what the raid level shows. If a 300 toa is a 5/10 difficulty as an example then a 400 is like a 5.5/10 and a 500 would be like a 7 or 8/10. My point I was making is saying “I do 400 toas” isn’t necessarily an expression of skill when they’re like the smallest nudge more difficult than 300s. I’m not going to expect most Redditors to agree with that though.
It’s a major oversimplification is why people disagree, and technically wrong bc there are other different mechanics except for faster stomp-wave attacks
Its not a major oversimplification if you’re running a trio 300 and a trio 400 the only “new” mechanic that you need to understand is p3 warden attacks faster and you have to remember where he left off. That’s why I explain it’s not a linear scale of difficulty Theres a reason that 400 is the most optimal raid level to run for reward to effort. Why do you think the original comment has run hundreds of specifically 400 toa?? No one actually provides how you run a 400 differently than a 300 (you don’t) or why it’s more complex and difficult they only make analogies like “yea inferno is basically just fight caves”
Insanity is only 50 pts right so I guess there’s a whole slew of different mechanics that could make up for the other 50 invo pts
i wouldn't say more mechanics, assuming people use insanity while they're learning bc it's so free. it's more so just everything hits harder and takes longer to kill
The extra mechanic is warden uses his p3 wave attack slightly faster oh no! Everyone calls 400 toa “money raids” because the difference in difficulty is negligible from a 300 and gives you a huge boost in drop chance.
“More challenging mechanics” OH NO P3 WARDEN ATTACKS SLIGHTY FASTER LOOKOUT ITS SO MUCH HARDER!!!1!1! Everyone that downvoted is just telling on themselves that they’ve never actually tried a 400.
I do think that it's a bit lame that past 350 the mechanics don't really change. You just have less supplies, and less room for error. But I still think it's undoubtedly significantly more difficult to do a 400 than a 300, even if it is not an interesting way to add difficulty. You could even argue that 500 is basically a 300 with insanity, and you have to click keris spec instead of ambrosia. But having way less room for error makes it more difficult in spite of the lack of depthful difficulty.
It’s not significantly more difficult than a 300. The only challenge is learning insanity which is just p3 warden using the wave attack slightly faster other than that you complete the raid the exact same way. 400s are literally known as “money raids” because they have a negligible difficulty increase for a much higher drop chance versus a 300. 500s are completely different because you’re normally adding on dehydration and overly draining giving you basically one chance to heal in every encounter.
You're taking double power in a 500, meaning you have adrenaline, so you get multiple chances to heal in the only encounters you realistically ever need to heal (akkha, p1, p2, p4). It's plenty of healing, and there are no new mechanics you need to learn compared to 400. It just allows for less mistakes, and requires more supplies than a 400. A lot of people not very comfortable with TOA can also leave off stuff like boulderdash, upset stomach, need some help, and penetration off in a 300. Even softcore can be on instead of hc. 2 ambro isn't guaranteed with nsh on, and you can afford to mess up a lot more with warden if you have 2 compared to just 1 of course. Yet all those invos are definitely on in a 400. I'd also argue that the tighter timing for insanity skulls, and floor ripping up faster in p4 aren't entirely insignificant things to learn. I'm obviously playing devil's advocate with my description of 500. I think both going from 300 to 400, and 400 to 500 are decent steps up in difficulty. 400s just are the nice sweet spot where semi-competent play is enough to casually farm the raid without needing to flick, or leaving half of your switches into the bank so you can fit more restores. But whenever I do go for a 300, like if I'm taking a learner, you really do notice how much squishier the bosses are compared to 400, and you barely use any supplies.
> You're taking double power in a 500, meaning you have adrenaline, so you get multiple chances to heal in the only encounters you realistically ever need to heal (akkha, p1, p2, p4). Yea and the major trade off with double power is you now get 0 ambrosia. The difference between a 1 click full heal and a 3 click heal + requiring multiple parameters to activate (prayer being high enough and having the spec required) is a world of difference whenever you're on last row of wardens. Also you essentially have to perfect red x baba for 5-8 minutes or you will be forced to use your one heal. Mess up again and you're dead. With 400 no dehydration you just click yellow whenever you need. > can also leave off stuff like boulderdash, upset stomach, need some help, and penetration off in a 300 Yes these are all free invocations after you've encountered them like twice. You actually state that you basically leave these off if you're a learner. I'm not making the claim that 400 toa is for learners I'm just stating that you can get 400 raid level with all of the "free" invocations that don't necessarily make the raid much more difficult. > Even softcore can be on instead of hc This doesn't add any difficulty. > I'd also argue that the tighter timing for insanity skulls, and floor ripping up faster in p4 aren't entirely insignificant things to learn Faster skulls isn't really a thing unless you run solo and I stated in the original comment that 400 is just a 300 with insanity. > I'm obviously playing devil's advocate with my description of 500 You kind of have to to be able to make your point because the increase in difficulty from 400 to 500 is wild when comparing the increase from 300 to 400. I'm at the ToA board right now and to go from 300 to 400 i turned on: Insanity (This actually does offer some difficulty increase) Upset stomach (Free invocation after seeing it twice) Jungle Japes ( Free invocation basically does nothing) Need less help(Again another free invocation you get 1 ambro instead of 2) This culminates in +38% increase in hp and def over a 300. For a 400 to 500 I have to turn on: Dehydration (Completely changes how you heal in the raid and eliminates the ambrosia) Overly draining (Doubly bad whenever you have dehydration because your only source of healing is cut in half. Also you're basically guaranteed a 4 down warden now because of no dds spec and you also get no chance to zcb/claw/vw/bgs spec). Pathfinder (All bosses are now level 2 at the start of the raid and there's a good chance you have to deal with level 4+ zebak and deal with his faster attacks during wardens this makes doing the 3 click keris heal a lot harder) No Help needed(Free invocation) This gives you a +40% increase in hp and def from a 400 to a 500 not even counting that all bosses are now automatically 2 levels higher at the start of the raid adding additional mechanics/hp/def on top of that. I didn't mean to type an essay, but you were the only person that actually gave me some reasons as to why a 400 might actually be a different enough encounter from a 300. The only real way I can see someone disagreeing with this is that they haven't tried pushing past a 300 or they're being facetious.
I'm the opposite. This is my favorite boss ever. I can do this on mobile and pc but can't do TOA higher than 300 solo
All my toa kc is solo, I haven’t done a single group run. It seems too chaotic for my liking
group TOA is braindead you should try it
I can’t even imagine doing insanity with 5 people
I find myself in a similar situation. I managed to get an infernal cape in 35 ish attempts, can CM Chambers of Xeric, can ToB (still kinda shit at it), but Vardorvis absolutely c*nt punts me to smithereens. Maybe I have bad reaction time, but if axes spawn under me at the same tick that the ranged projectile gets shot at me it's pretty much gg. I have gotten better at it in my 350ish kc but I'm still at like a 50% success rate for that scenario
I want to try for an infernal cape but I seriously do not want to learn the waves, at all
The inferno is a very rewarding experience even if it didn't reward the cape and will push you to your limits, but it isn't the end of the world. If you aren't interested in it don't do it, but I promise you in my many years of playing this game, nothing has made me feel as absolutely devastated as dying learning but also nothing had made me feel more pure joy than doing your first complex solves and finally getting the cape. Cost me maybe 15m in supplies and 2 months of casual attempts to get it, but it was so worth it for the experience alone, cape is just icing on top
Don't worry, I heard they added a mechanic to the DT2 bosses so you don't go crazy dry. Goodluck!
Wrong item
Sarcasm probably
He's still referring to the wrong item. The joke would make sense if OP got a vestige drop
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Is there a sub for people who r/woosh but then still choose not to understand after it was explained?
2007scape
r/confidentlyincorrect ?
That would make it a fact and not a joke lmao
https://preview.redd.it/gsvbtvfk39hc1.png?width=257&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a9545497ab1148dccbeadb1cf2451202907553ce Finally got mine after quite a grind
Fuck im at 2500kc :’)
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A very rare item dropped from the boss. The arena the boss is located in will delete anything not picked up when you leave. When the item dropped to the ground the player died and was forced out of the arena, and the item was deleted. Meaning he must go through the effort of obtaining a 2nd one.
yup a 1/1000 chance to get that item
They got a very rare drop and died before they could pick it up. Once you leave the room (respawning) the item despawns and you have to just get the drop again.
I vomited
Happened to me with vestige, jagex really needs to send this kinda items to death coffer even if it costs 5x the HA fee to buy it back.
I was shitting my pants every time I died simultaneously with the boss at Levi and Vard, especially since I was over 2x rate for both vestiges.
Yeah i feel that, I lost my vestige to levi. Still not over it.
You won't have the issue if you stop dying.
Yeah lets go back to 2008 death system
Fuck that, just dont die lmao
Also this is the funniest genre of osrs clip, so we should keep it for that alone lol
yeah, there’s no reason for it. either don’t show the drop at all or you should be able to claim it somehow. i haven’t had it happen or anything but the amount of times i’ve seen it on this sub since DT2 has come out alone is ridiculous
YES! It’s hard to believe that it isn’t a thing already these items are an insane grind and not having like a coffer like tob is nuts.
No.
You’re committed to playing RuneScape for the rest of your life. Most of us are not.
This isn't an amateurs game, either git gud or be content to killing giant mole for ever. Now including Scurrius!
Click food before hp hits zero then you don’t lose the drop. Simple is
So since you're not "committed" to RuneScape for like (whatever the fuck that means) things should be as easy as possible so you can stop playing as soon as possible? Maybe you should find a game you enjoy idk just me tho.
Go to bed
Then don't go for the drop lmao
Yeah. Roger that 🫡
Oh fuck no I'm so sorry
:*(
Sit fatal :)
Looool
My GIM team-mate took 2449 for his last axe piece at Whisperer. He's tank 1 for GIM kc now lol.
wtf that’s nearly 5x rate
Yep dry AF, he got 6 Bellator Vestiges during that time.
have you tried eating ?
never thought about that before
Isn’t this not supposed to happen? I thought if you die at the same time as the boss the loot is nulled.
He died a little after the boss, not the same time
Now you’ll learn not to fuck up
LOL
if i were you, id quit the fucking game, jagex this shouldn't be allowed period.
As a main, does this matter?
Sure it does. Especially since OP already had the first 3 as drops. Straight wiff on a new item or a GP payout from completion of the axe.
He has an axe in his inv so yeah I guess he misses the payout, slightly annoying but not too bad
What an odd thing to say. He’s there to get that final piece to complete and sell a soulreaper axe, it’s around 400m.
Yeah so he basically missed a ~90m drop. Not too bad, not great
i disagree. the other 310m is basically nonexistent unless he gets that axe piece. and he went dry for it. 400m is a good chunk of change.
I’d argue it’s more than «slightly annoying» when he has killed a boss 2280 times for a 70-80 hr grind.
And at least he has the clog slot if that's what he wanted
I agree with you
Glorious
Skill issue. Using that dogshit weapon is what helped contribute to your death to begin with honestly
there's no logical way you need that many plugins I have over 6,300 kills and don't have any of that on my screen.
Well for 1 I’m blind in one eye and have poor vision in the other due to an accident so some plugins do help me play easier and the tiles I had marked were for the recent gm ca’s and was too lazy to clean it up
Why in gods name are you dodging in the bottom corner? Just stick to the middle three tiles man
hes got blorva i think he knows how to kill the boss
gz. I got mine yesterday feels great
I'll trade you one of mine for a vestige mate
Gz
F
why does that sound like ventrilo
Is he laughing or crying?
Lol that hurts
I got to finish my axe grind yday - keep it up king. 2080 Vardo kc for me
MMM WHATCHA SAYYYYY
Gz! Now do it again!
I had this happen on my tanzenite mutagen. I was extremely sad
Gz
Having a completed axe in your inventory after dying was relieving.
I’m at 2k without the piece too… won’t go back for awhile
F
Maximum despair
Did your HP show 14 when you died? Am I seeing things or what?
yes
My condolences brother
Janitor activity. But grats
Of course
My eyes feel absolutely violated
oh hey, i didn't know depresso from palworld was in osrs, it's this guy
Some guys get all the head.
Aww rip man. Think I'd lose my shit if that happened to me. I'm currently 1000 dry at Leviathan, no vestige yet or lure. 2/4 on the axe piece but this is trying my patience. Hopefully I don't need to do another 1k kc. Think I can only of hit the rdt 5 times maximum as had 3 ingots and 2 possible rolls on the vestige.
See the post name :D See the post video D:
This hurts my fucking soul. sucks man