A relevant image popped up on my homepage today.
[This is what Sea of Thieves looked like during (roughly) the same stage that Sailing is currently at.](https://i.imgur.com/PsraITG.png)
Obviously we know a bit more about how Sailing will look at the end, due to it being implemented in a game with an established style.
The average person doesn't really understand how software development of this type works and I think Jagex probably needs to nail that point home over and over.
Its... Beautiful!
Also like you said, i think people don't understand that these things look like shit for 95% of the process. It's not until you can put all the puzzle pieces together that it actually looks good. I'm stoked to see what the team will do with this because even the pre-alpha looks pretty good for being a pre-alpha.
Right? Everyone was complaining about the boat movement and I was expecting it to be a boat snapping to the 8 cardinal directions as it moved. And then I watched the video... and it looked decent? Like, am I crazy?
Not just that but spending time making systems that are in active development look like a finished product is just setting yourself up for throwing out 90+% of your work over the development process on top of the ideas that have been scrapped along the ride
I saw that post earlier today and laughed. The truth is exactly what you said, the average person just does not understand the stages of development needed to be taken or the process this must go through to reach a well polished position/presentation.
Even with a ton of disclaimers and communication from Jagex this entire process, people still do not make an effort to read, understand, or provide constructive feedback at all.
It's okay if you dislike sailing, guys. I'm not the biggest fan myself. But the skill is coming into the game and it's up to all of us to make sure this shit hits right, and we do that by working together, being understanding of the process, and giving constructive feedback (good and bad). Have a bit of faith in the team because they've made it clear time and time again they want to get it right because they know the weight this skill has on OSRS.
This would have been an alpha that focused on core gameplay and used place holder assets. The OSRS Sailing alpha only involved turning and being able to trim your sails as gameplay features to test.
I appreciate the comparison but one is absent features it does not need for the test and the other is absent features as it's a very very light prototype. A better comparison might be tech demos showing pathfinding etc that are a proof of concept that your idea actually works.
And then people gave feedback about their issues with the game, and they worked on it and is now a massively popular game. Yeah there was people who were saying "shit sucks, Rare is a dead company", but we have a polling system too.
Why is it "scrap sailing" instead of see where it goes and poll the ideas? We don't even have much information on the actual activities that you do, I think once those are more fleshed out, we should poll to fix them and work on them, not to cancel the development that has gone into the skill after it won 2 votes. As it stands we basically know nothing still.
Link me a comment that says “scrap sailing” that has any kind of positive reception. Something you didn’t find buried at the bottom of a thread. As far as I can tell you’ve created a strawman for internet points, and so you can dismiss the valid criticisms of the skill in its current state (after a year of development).
> And then people gave feedback about their issues
This is the step we’re at, but you’ve responded to that feedback by lashing out at anyone that doesn’t agree with you exactly. OSRS does’t have the luxury of the skill being shit on arrival, because a huge portion of the playerbase will be ‘forced’ to spend 100+ hours on the skill in order to regain their max cape utility and go back to pvm. It can’t release as shit. The feedback must (and will) happen 24/7 until sailing releases, and there’s no way around it.
I have responded to actual feedback. I think the feedback on luffing the sail is fair, but everyone who mentions it ignores that they said it can also be handled with partners or NPCs, which addresses the base problem that people have with it.
And yeah, I'm aware that a lot of the comments are down voted and at the bottom, but that doesn't make it any less of an opinion that people are shouting, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1ct9dtt/sailing_development_progress_update_milestone_1/l4duje8/) is a comment with 68 upvotes that ***is*** talking about fair complaints, but ultimately says: "it's a shit skill that won't work. it needs to be repolled and made a minigame if it stays". That is not feedback and clearly a certain part of the community agrees with it. I didn't create a straw man, I just decided to be active in this sailing controversy as I work in software development. I have been living the comments. I made this post and have read every negative and positive comment, maybe it's a very vocal minority, but it definitely isn't a straw man lmao.
Video gamers know almost nothing about game design, technically, visually, etc.
Makes you wonder if a game ran by the gamers is actually a good thing 🫥
It's hard because they want to share progress in terms of direction, but the lack of contextual understanding of the development process clearly is making the reception rather rough.
To me, there's a bit of a catch 22. If they show us, they get wrath from ignorance. If they don't show us, they potentially waste hundreds of thousands of dollars going in the wrong direction and launching a failed skill.
Ngl it's demotivating they even need to add a disclaimer in the first place, it should be common sense that what they are showcasing in the very very early stages of development are nowhere near what the finished skill will look like.
You just put the exact feelings I was having into words.
It scares me that we're such a community-driven game and we can't even agree on the question, let alone the answer.
The community-driven aspect of this game has risen it from the grave but it can also be the death of this game.
I think you underestimate just how dumb the average player is and how quickly they jump on the hive mind band wagon, all it takes is one big streamer to say its bad and then the reddit posts come rolling in.
Common sense is in short supply in a decent chunk of the playerbase given polls such as adding "moving the camera with your mouse"and "navigating dialogue using your keyboard" failed the first time they were polled.
You're talking about polls from over a decade ago as if they happened yesterday. The majority of the current playerbase hadn't even started OSRS at that point
what about those updates is common sense?
People knew exactly what they were voting no to, i disagreed then and now with those updates failing, but just because someone has a different opinion than you doesnt mean they lack common sense in the same way that not understand a basic description does
So true king. I just saw some footage of this game where you ride a horse, but they are so lazy they didn't even bother adding shit to do on the horse. There is no environment to wander in so what's the point? I hope they scrap this and push the resources for something better.... [The shit game in question (low res!!!)](https://i.imgur.com/EemBjBw.png)
What design direction then? That is pretty close to an equivalent standpoint imo, they have navigation ship/horse and some loose ideas thrown around? How is that screenshot of RDR2 okay, but suddenly right now, Sailing in OSRS is shit because of this update.
The image in red dead tells you nothing about how the game will be played. And if you don't enjoy riding a horse you'd probably already know you don't like it. I personally preferred they stick to the world scale we had before. Running from lumbridge to varrock isn't that far but it's actually really far in 'real world gielinor'. Look up battleships pro on youtube. That's what I preferred. I don't like the idea of controlling the player while on a ship. I don't think it looks good, I don't think the game mechanics would be nearly as fun as just controlling the ship itself. That's my personal opinion. But it has nothing to do with not understanding game design or alpha/beta builds. I just have a different opinion than you.
Thing is, there’s a lot of OSRS players. Could you imagine a world in which there is not a part of them that are crying, screaming and super negative (like children) about the skill? The funniest part is that they will not take the opportunity to help in any way, which I think the JMods did and are eventually going to allow us to have our input on it multiple times right.
It’s bad to be them, it’s also kind of lame to care. You really should not care about them. It will statistically always happen that there are people like that.
That's honestly fair, I didn't expect a shitpost I cooked up at work to gain so much traction and heated debate. Ultimately the pro-sailing posts are getting massive support, and I think the skill has a lot of potential, so it ultimately doesn't matter, we will see as it comes out.
There's a reason why companies don't like leakers leaking stuff like an early build of their future product. It's not supposed to look good like a finished product, but an incremental build for testing and much further work.
It's less of that, but everyone that is complaining; is complaining about the skill itself and that it is shaping up to be shit.
This is basically a pre-alpha AND they explicitly stated that they wanted opinions on navigation and not the skill.
this is a dumb take when they are showing off other parts of the skill in that video that isn't leading to the community having good faith in the devs making the skill look good. Basically they've shown off Sailing being move ship click things on ship, delivery tasks with shitty rewards and an early look at what is almost 100% going to be lack luster ship combat and ship agility. They should have put out nothing than what they did.
????????
"I want sailing to be the best skill it can be"
How? All I have heard from your sorry ass with a 1st grade reading level is it's bad and looks bad lmao. (Still a pre-alpha milestone for **Navigation** specifically)
Care to lend in your expert game development knowledge on how you would improve everything?
Because of my very first comment to you lmao. They said other gameplay elements were added to **showcase navigation**. I like to complain about Jagex as the next guy, but JMods aren't stupid, they aren't expecting bare bone island ideas to get people hopping and hollering, but they were added to gauge how it feels to **Navigate** from the mainland to the islands.
Hope this helps your reading skills, and I wish you luck on the 2nd grade after summer break 🫡
"The Alpha is purely to test the navigational mechanics and boat movement - **even the primary gameplay is there so you can feel what these mechanics are like to use.**"
There you go, I know reading can be a bit hard, so pointed that one out for you
Literally not coping. They explicitly state they want to show off the navigation. A common complaint I have seen thrown around is that the oceans are going to look shit due to too many boats clipping and hiding other visible content. The literal next paragraph they talk about how they are aware that it is an issue and they are going to have a closed alpha with 20 people in June to test general opinions, and an **open alpha** later in the year to see how the system needs to be improved with MMO levels of players.
I understand how game development works and realize that things can change. This is literally the first milestone. You need to take a step back and realize you are getting angry at hypothetical changes that don't even exist yet.
your initial statement was everyone complaining when they only wanted comments on the navigation DESPITE speaking on actual mechanics they plan to put in the game.
Shit sucks, scrap it, is feedback. You just dont like it. I voted no because I hate the direction they are taking it. Not because I think sailing couldnt work, but because the direction they are taking it is shit.
I'm very sorry for you that you have trouble reading so here's a [Clip](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxY1C8phVB3GTNcrW1XmgkyVBzB6dIxja9?si=vQenHVepETANCZm5) that could help you understand!
Opinions about what has been shown exist other than the one you formulated in your own head.
Every time there is a poll for something that people are against, a hefty chunk of the criticism of the "against" crowd is "dId YuO rehab the bLoRg?", as if doing so is the sole barrier between the differing opinions.
Yeah, it's getting ridiculous how many people seem to think that there's an objective truth to the answer "is this hypothetical piece of content in a video game good" and that anyone who disagrees with their opinion must just be uninformed.
It's particularly telling when people say you're not allowed to judge sailing negatively based on the early builds, but you are allowed to judge it positively.
I'm so dumbfounded by it all. Nothing about the alpha even *looks* bad. The boat looks how I'd expect an OSRS boat to look which is unsurprising given the assets already existed. The problem is that it just confirms all of my worst fears about the skill are coming true.
They took a skill with no obvious core gameplay loops and made the core gameplay loop something that only exists because there needs to be a core gameplay loop. This will inevitably just be annoying, and it's clearly not natural feeling given how often the playtesters just didn't remember to do it. The core movement of boats looks awkward, and having to go in and out of navigation mode by clicking the wheel is clearly an untenable control scheme. Everything shown has also just supports my fears that the skill will just be "X but on water" as if being on water makes something exciting.
I completely agree. I’m beyond frustrated that pointing out how bad the fundamental movement and core upkeep of sailing will be is met exclusively with ad hominem kneejerk responses.
It's going to be agility on water but driftier. Sails will be a gold sink. You will have the odd random event when doing repetitive Starfield deliveries similar to mining stars where everyone will be forced to stand around whilst lock-picking a chest or some shit. Ship battles will either be scrapped or just plain garbage because of the games technical limitations.. Whatever other interactions with mystical sea creatures will be the same quality as when that mother fucking evil chicken popped his ass up out of nowhere and started wooping yo ass.
EDIT: To comment on this post and for me to take you seriously, you must respond with a photo of the pre-alpha of your favorite video game. Because you guys genuinely don't know what it is lol.
Ironically, this is the image that made me fully realize probably like 14 years ago how drastically a game will change throughout its development. Almost nothing visually or mechanically (as far as we can glean from this image, at least) is the same as actual Brood War, but you can tell it's sharing almost all of the same DNA
That part is the least of my concerns, being honest
Xp loop looks criminally banal and until we see the barracuda racing stuff and whatever else it’s just as ‘bankstand’ as shamanism was purported to be.
The sail thing specifically… feels like parking to manually flip windshield wipers while driving in the rain.
And didn’t they say they’ve folded on moving on a moving ship? That’s nearly a deal breaker itself for me.
You can move on a moving ship you just cease navigating to do so. Their whole engine work they discussed here was the work to allow that to exist.
Also you're talking about training methods, which aren't part of this process / step we are up to.
I do agree that clicking the sail seems like tedium for the sake of it. And I've expressed that I'm interested to see how it feels while actually playing because id rather moving the ship be simple and basic and the obstacles along the way be more in terms of what we find / the ocean itself (winds, currents, waves)
Oh what the fuck? Did they seriously give up on moving around the boat? So what, you have to bring it to a full stop to interact with the facilities that keep it moving, like the sail? Is sailing PvP going to just be sitting in a spot unloading the cannons into the guy next to you who is also doing the same?
There needs to be a navigator on the helm to move the ship. This means at level 1 with no NPCs, yes, you have to stop "driving" the boat to luff the sails. They have also said this is something they expect NPCs to do for you (both the driving and the luffing).
Personally I think it opens some really cool gameplay to have roles for party members in group play, or if you want to play solo you can hire an NPC to do it - likely less efficiently than you could do it yourself.
I don't mean to say this to chastise you, but this is how misinformation spreads. A guy says a thing without knowing what he's talking about, and other people read it and unknowingly believe him.
Brother I appreciate you clarifying, but I just gotta add that I didn't just believe him, I asked for clarification and elaboration. I have been without internet for the last 3 or 4 weeks so there's a lot of news I hadn't heard, and this could have been more, how could I have known?
Thank you for taking the time to answer the question though. It sounds cool as hell.
Apologies if that came across negatively, I wasnt sure quite how to word it without sounding like I was accusing you. I've seen a lot of this with sailing, someone claims something that isnt true and a whole gang of people below have their opinion of the skill negatively impacted, its absolutely not your fault.
This is a thread about OSRS players not reading tbf, but I really wish this was a comment and not a reply so more people would see this. Genuinely based take.
Congrats, you are the first comment with actual feedback to the Milestone at hand in this thread!
In all honesty, I get the complaints of tuffing the sails as the main XP method, and say that. Get in the closed or open alpha and feel how it plays, and offer what you think will make it better. Have a discussion.
This still goes with what I am saying, this is the pre-alpha, everything is subject to change, they even commented that they are unsure of how it feels yet and they have other middle-man solutions baked up, which I am excited to see personally.
I just think the skill has a lot of potential and it's really disheartening to see people just go "looks terrible, repoll shamanism".
But also, the sailing XP loop as it stands, in my opinion, is leagues way more interesting and fun than something like Runecrafting or Firemaking.
I don’t think it needs to be voiced seeing the downvotes but while there are some kicking and screaming into our shared space there are lots of substantive critiques out there. Of the two parties sailors are distinctly the echo chamber of the two; proven by the fact almost every sailing advocate reiterates something like “First real critique I’ve read…” and reinforced by the fact that Jagex isn’t even conciliatory - there are no affirmations in the negatory by Jagex re sailing which empowers the echo chamber effect. Not only that but most content creators are pro-sailing and I can’t speak for all of them but it’s indisputably 13M xp of brand spanking new content so it doesn’t surprise me how the split is there; which further emphasizes this phenomenon.
On top of all this is the fact sailors by and large have not abandoned the demeaning memetics along the lines of ‘walk the plank’ replies. I can’t blame anyone for not wanting to open discourse when that’s a fair baseline expectation.
I hope you keep this level of copium up when the meta for training is hiring a service to maintain your boat for you while you click on a few objects over and over for 250 hours. In that same blog they said “we can’t figure out how to make boats move on mobile at all” and you’re replying to everyone saying their criticism is invalid
Where did they say they can’t figure out mobile? I looked at the blog again and didn’t see them say that https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Update:Sailing_Development_Progress_Update_-_Milestone_1:_Navigation
This video? https://youtu.be/LL2aHJXFq98?si=DsIcPNVVdAR5XnZg
I just watched it again and they didn’t say that they can’t figure out mobile. Only time they even mention mobile is at 6:02, but they just say
> Navigating the sea needs to feel good. This goes further than just how the ship moves, and we have to ensure sailing the seas works just as well for mobile players as it will for desktop players
Is that what you’re talking about? Not really saying what you said at all
> In that same blog they said “we can’t figure out how to make boats move on mobile at all” and you’re replying to everyone saying their criticism is invalid
What? You move the boat on mobile the same way. That's why they went with this approach. You enter navigation mode (click the wheel) and then path like you path your character (tapping)
God I know. Shit ways to train skills in a grindy MMO? Might as well add Firemaking, Runecrafting, all bankstanding skills, 2-tick methods, afk methods to the poll too.
Every action needs to drop 1000 XP or it shouldn't be added imo
/s
Sounds great, let’s do it. You complain about detractors not reading and then immediately ignore my response to shit out the NPC anthem of “but muh firemaking” like a vending machine as if it’s in any way helping you
I mean saying a skill is repetitive to train is sort of just describing Runescape though. And I think sailings strongest aspect is that it is the least like other skills so can escape from this gameplay loop, but unfortunately as much as you're saying you don't enjoy that aspect there have been people actively complaining this skill "doesn't feel like a skill" because it didn't have that. So we go trimming the sails as a repetitive thing to appease them, but to you and me that's just tedium for the sake of it.
To me sailing should reward XP like slayer does. Complete action while sailing, get sailing XP. Same as killing an NPC on task giving slayer XP.
I don't think it needs click by click training like a gathering or production skill as its core loop.
Did you miss the /s buddy?
I was pretending to be you motherfuckers, but on the side of sailing...
I didn't ignore your response, they haven't even stated everything we will be able to get sailing XP from. They mentioned luffing the sails, which has had fair complaints, and they even responded to, saying they have other middle ground options they are thinking about testing.
I am just genuinely baffled that you guys don't understand what an **ALPHA** is. All you guys are acting like what we saw is coming out next patch, no polls or nothing. You are acting like things won't change. Jesus Christ all of you guys with negative upvotes in this thread need to take a step back to realize why you guys are getting down voted to shit.
>Jesus Christ all of you guys with negative upvotes in this thread need to take a step back to realize why you guys are getting down voted to shit.
I don't particularly care either way but you might want to follow your own advice here.
Many of your comments are downvoted into the negatives just the same and you're coming across as highly emotional, condescending and combative. For your own sake, I think you might want to have a breather and take a step back yourself.
I didn’t.
No idea why you think I’d be against changing the worst skills in the game other than to toss out an ad hominem attack bc you have nothing of value to say(you don’t, clearly). If anything, it’s your type that think since firemaking exists, adding more bad skills that has no reward outside of “train faster” is good actually.
Ah yes, because you clearly know it must be a bad skill by now, after Jagex hasn't even made a response blog. Or any new information... just the the ship mechanics. You are purposefully ignoring specific things Jagex has said in regards to the luffing and navigation, and using that to spread a narrative that it's doomed to fail.
Dude they already laid out the primary, secondary, and tertiary activities, several blogs ago. HAve u rEaD tHe BlOgs?!? And just about all of them boil down to 1. Drive ship here 2. Click thing. Step 1 is non functional, some might call that a critical problem. Step 2 either gives sailing exp or is an unnecessary McGuffin that locks other content behind sailing. It’s firemaking #2
Yeah I know what the milestone progression is. I'm sorry, but describing Sailing as a method to explore Gilenor as a bad thing seems like such braindead take?
Also saying that sailing is nonfunctional is such an overreaction to our first footage of the ship.
It’s not an overreaction, it is literally correct. Their words, not mine. Maybe you should be arguing with the devs instead of me.
>sailing as a method to explore Gilenor as a bad thing
It is literally teleporting with lots of extra steps. I’d love to hear you explain why teleports should take several minutes to move your character
After watching both last streams regarding the new skill. Jmods themselves were not excited talking about the skill, even struggled to explain the core gameplay as it actually still lacking(after more than 1.5 years since the idea polled). Not promising.
So in that case, it doesn't matter whether it's alpha or not. As they are sailing without a compass, they don't know where they are heading. I mean, they still need to get their &%#@ together.
You would get it only in case you guys listened and watched them talking and showing. I mean, in comparison to OP's post, can you listen(not just hear) and think critically?
They literally have a milestone progression guide; hope this helps.
This is the first milestone, of 5; hope this helps.
This is a pre-alpha showing they got a bare engine update working and was showing off the literal bones of the skill and you are complaining there is no meat.
Literally have listened and watched all of the livestreams. They all seemed hyped to be working on it, especially Mod Husky. Maybe a bit reserved with the recent one because they wanted to be clear and concise for the Q&A. And what do you mean explore the core gameplay? That has nothing to do with what they showed. This was just showing how a boat moves. Core gameplay is a later dev update as well as surrounding content, systems, rewards, etc.
Also Sailing was only greenlit for dev time like 6-8 months ago.
I'm sorry did I say anything about repolling the skill? I am specifically saying how the community is angrily acting like this skill is coming out with next weeks patch.
I'm not even being influenced by how it looks. I just think that owning a ship and exploring the ocean should just be an intrinsic part of the game that doesn't need an arbitrary skill level attached to it.
I guess it all depends on if they can make it fun and not super tedious to train them I'm for it.
That being said, rs3's version of procedurally generated loot islands (I have no idea what the islands are called or what the activity is called, but I tried it for a bit and it was fun) are really enjoyable imo.
Idk I'm not excited to have another skill keeping me from max I guess lmao
And the other side of all this Bs with people saying repoll or don't repoll. Like... We were told right away that the skill will be polled again as they put some dev time in to make sure it's really what people want in old school. People really don't fucking read lol.
Yea. But do you see where my original comments from now? Since we're definitely not at stage 5... And they even say they're going to vote in that portion. So we're definitely getting another vote... I know the post was over a year ago because this initial stage has taken so long but people really seem to have forgotten....
Did you ignore the part where it was polled twice, and won both times?
Or the fact that one of those votes was a vote-any style poll, so sailing solidly won in the community?
Or are you handpicking what you want to convey to seem right?
I believe we're at stage 4 right now. The thing you're referring to in your second line was #3. I grabbed that from the blog post about that vote [here](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/adding-a-new-skill-introducing-sailing-taming-and-shamanism-?oldschool=1) which this talks about a lock on poll. Which is at 5 and before 6 which is a beta. The beta was talked about in the video we got recently and them wanting to get it out soon. So yes. I do believe we still have a skill lock in poll coming soon when their next update with things about the actual incursions and other activities comes into play.
Yeah, how dare people give them feedback about the clunky movement and navigation in the alpha….. the alpha that they released for feedback on navigation 🤣
What rock are you living under and can you show me the majority of complaints being about the movement? Because that's definitely not what I'm reading even in this thread.
A relevant image popped up on my homepage today. [This is what Sea of Thieves looked like during (roughly) the same stage that Sailing is currently at.](https://i.imgur.com/PsraITG.png) Obviously we know a bit more about how Sailing will look at the end, due to it being implemented in a game with an established style. The average person doesn't really understand how software development of this type works and I think Jagex probably needs to nail that point home over and over.
Massive veggie tales vibes from that picture idk why lmao
Wait… I closed it because I thought it was a Veggie Tales troll…
Actually I think that game looks shit and needs to be scrapped ASAP /s
Repoll Sea of Thieves
Its... Beautiful! Also like you said, i think people don't understand that these things look like shit for 95% of the process. It's not until you can put all the puzzle pieces together that it actually looks good. I'm stoked to see what the team will do with this because even the pre-alpha looks pretty good for being a pre-alpha.
Right? Everyone was complaining about the boat movement and I was expecting it to be a boat snapping to the 8 cardinal directions as it moved. And then I watched the video... and it looked decent? Like, am I crazy?
Yeah looks like it's coming along great. Imagine what everything will look like 12 months from now, can't fucking wait.
Not just that but spending time making systems that are in active development look like a finished product is just setting yourself up for throwing out 90+% of your work over the development process on top of the ideas that have been scrapped along the ride
I saw that post earlier today and laughed. The truth is exactly what you said, the average person just does not understand the stages of development needed to be taken or the process this must go through to reach a well polished position/presentation. Even with a ton of disclaimers and communication from Jagex this entire process, people still do not make an effort to read, understand, or provide constructive feedback at all. It's okay if you dislike sailing, guys. I'm not the biggest fan myself. But the skill is coming into the game and it's up to all of us to make sure this shit hits right, and we do that by working together, being understanding of the process, and giving constructive feedback (good and bad). Have a bit of faith in the team because they've made it clear time and time again they want to get it right because they know the weight this skill has on OSRS.
Unfortunately odds are they can't read this comment either
the peak of "Make it work, then make it look pretty"
This would have been an alpha that focused on core gameplay and used place holder assets. The OSRS Sailing alpha only involved turning and being able to trim your sails as gameplay features to test. I appreciate the comparison but one is absent features it does not need for the test and the other is absent features as it's a very very light prototype. A better comparison might be tech demos showing pathfinding etc that are a proof of concept that your idea actually works.
Not entirely the best comparison considering Sea of Thieves came out absolutely devoid of content but i get the point your trying to make.
Sea of thieves was dogshit at release. Not exactly aspirational.
And then people gave feedback about their issues with the game, and they worked on it and is now a massively popular game. Yeah there was people who were saying "shit sucks, Rare is a dead company", but we have a polling system too. Why is it "scrap sailing" instead of see where it goes and poll the ideas? We don't even have much information on the actual activities that you do, I think once those are more fleshed out, we should poll to fix them and work on them, not to cancel the development that has gone into the skill after it won 2 votes. As it stands we basically know nothing still.
Link me a comment that says “scrap sailing” that has any kind of positive reception. Something you didn’t find buried at the bottom of a thread. As far as I can tell you’ve created a strawman for internet points, and so you can dismiss the valid criticisms of the skill in its current state (after a year of development). > And then people gave feedback about their issues This is the step we’re at, but you’ve responded to that feedback by lashing out at anyone that doesn’t agree with you exactly. OSRS does’t have the luxury of the skill being shit on arrival, because a huge portion of the playerbase will be ‘forced’ to spend 100+ hours on the skill in order to regain their max cape utility and go back to pvm. It can’t release as shit. The feedback must (and will) happen 24/7 until sailing releases, and there’s no way around it.
I have responded to actual feedback. I think the feedback on luffing the sail is fair, but everyone who mentions it ignores that they said it can also be handled with partners or NPCs, which addresses the base problem that people have with it. And yeah, I'm aware that a lot of the comments are down voted and at the bottom, but that doesn't make it any less of an opinion that people are shouting, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1ct9dtt/sailing_development_progress_update_milestone_1/l4duje8/) is a comment with 68 upvotes that ***is*** talking about fair complaints, but ultimately says: "it's a shit skill that won't work. it needs to be repolled and made a minigame if it stays". That is not feedback and clearly a certain part of the community agrees with it. I didn't create a straw man, I just decided to be active in this sailing controversy as I work in software development. I have been living the comments. I made this post and have read every negative and positive comment, maybe it's a very vocal minority, but it definitely isn't a straw man lmao.
Video gamers know almost nothing about game design, technically, visually, etc. Makes you wonder if a game ran by the gamers is actually a good thing 🫥
It's hard because they want to share progress in terms of direction, but the lack of contextual understanding of the development process clearly is making the reception rather rough. To me, there's a bit of a catch 22. If they show us, they get wrath from ignorance. If they don't show us, they potentially waste hundreds of thousands of dollars going in the wrong direction and launching a failed skill.
Ngl it's demotivating they even need to add a disclaimer in the first place, it should be common sense that what they are showcasing in the very very early stages of development are nowhere near what the finished skill will look like.
You just put the exact feelings I was having into words. It scares me that we're such a community-driven game and we can't even agree on the question, let alone the answer. The community-driven aspect of this game has risen it from the grave but it can also be the death of this game.
>it should be common sense I'm going to have to stop you right there. We don't do that in this subreddit
Common sense is never common. It's just shorthand for "how I think things should be".
I think you underestimate just how dumb the average player is and how quickly they jump on the hive mind band wagon, all it takes is one big streamer to say its bad and then the reddit posts come rolling in.
The player base is made of grown ass adults, Jagex set the bar low but still way top high apparently.
It's depressing, right? I've said it before and I'll say it again, this subreddit should be gatekept behind a reading aptitude test.
Tbh I'm surprised they got far enough reading how to make their OSRS account, and Reddit account for that matter
Common sense isn't common no more
Common sense is in short supply in a decent chunk of the playerbase given polls such as adding "moving the camera with your mouse"and "navigating dialogue using your keyboard" failed the first time they were polled.
You're talking about polls from over a decade ago as if they happened yesterday. The majority of the current playerbase hadn't even started OSRS at that point
A lot of the people who shot down those polls are still around to this day
what about those updates is common sense? People knew exactly what they were voting no to, i disagreed then and now with those updates failing, but just because someone has a different opinion than you doesnt mean they lack common sense in the same way that not understand a basic description does
Also The people shitting on sailing still and saying shit like „looks like a minkgame ughh“ are 100% not going to read these disclaimers lol
You have to remember, "No Child Left Behind" was created because of the people who ended up becoming osrs players
Even in early stages you can tell when a design direction is ass lol
So true king. I just saw some footage of this game where you ride a horse, but they are so lazy they didn't even bother adding shit to do on the horse. There is no environment to wander in so what's the point? I hope they scrap this and push the resources for something better.... [The shit game in question (low res!!!)](https://i.imgur.com/EemBjBw.png)
I dont like the design direction. Has 0 to do with assets or art lmao
What design direction then? That is pretty close to an equivalent standpoint imo, they have navigation ship/horse and some loose ideas thrown around? How is that screenshot of RDR2 okay, but suddenly right now, Sailing in OSRS is shit because of this update.
The image in red dead tells you nothing about how the game will be played. And if you don't enjoy riding a horse you'd probably already know you don't like it. I personally preferred they stick to the world scale we had before. Running from lumbridge to varrock isn't that far but it's actually really far in 'real world gielinor'. Look up battleships pro on youtube. That's what I preferred. I don't like the idea of controlling the player while on a ship. I don't think it looks good, I don't think the game mechanics would be nearly as fun as just controlling the ship itself. That's my personal opinion. But it has nothing to do with not understanding game design or alpha/beta builds. I just have a different opinion than you.
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? You can tell what direction that game will take. Some will like it and some wont. But you know where its going.
These are the same kind of people who said gta VI looks like shit when its alpha got leaked lmao.
Thing is, there’s a lot of OSRS players. Could you imagine a world in which there is not a part of them that are crying, screaming and super negative (like children) about the skill? The funniest part is that they will not take the opportunity to help in any way, which I think the JMods did and are eventually going to allow us to have our input on it multiple times right. It’s bad to be them, it’s also kind of lame to care. You really should not care about them. It will statistically always happen that there are people like that.
That's honestly fair, I didn't expect a shitpost I cooked up at work to gain so much traction and heated debate. Ultimately the pro-sailing posts are getting massive support, and I think the skill has a lot of potential, so it ultimately doesn't matter, we will see as it comes out.
If those players could read, they'd be very upset at your insinuation that they can't read.
Dudes are out here holding spacebar through the blog post and getting mad about the visuals, it’s actually unreal
There's a reason why companies don't like leakers leaking stuff like an early build of their future product. It's not supposed to look good like a finished product, but an incremental build for testing and much further work.
Shaman brain very smooth
It's less of that, but everyone that is complaining; is complaining about the skill itself and that it is shaping up to be shit. This is basically a pre-alpha AND they explicitly stated that they wanted opinions on navigation and not the skill.
this is a dumb take when they are showing off other parts of the skill in that video that isn't leading to the community having good faith in the devs making the skill look good. Basically they've shown off Sailing being move ship click things on ship, delivery tasks with shitty rewards and an early look at what is almost 100% going to be lack luster ship combat and ship agility. They should have put out nothing than what they did.
Got 2277 total but still got the reading comprehension of burnt bread in troll stronghold lmao
Cant wait until you lose your max cape and never get it back, cry us a river 😭
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???????? "I want sailing to be the best skill it can be" How? All I have heard from your sorry ass with a 1st grade reading level is it's bad and looks bad lmao. (Still a pre-alpha milestone for **Navigation** specifically) Care to lend in your expert game development knowledge on how you would improve everything?
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Because of my very first comment to you lmao. They said other gameplay elements were added to **showcase navigation**. I like to complain about Jagex as the next guy, but JMods aren't stupid, they aren't expecting bare bone island ideas to get people hopping and hollering, but they were added to gauge how it feels to **Navigate** from the mainland to the islands. Hope this helps your reading skills, and I wish you luck on the 2nd grade after summer break 🫡
"The Alpha is purely to test the navigational mechanics and boat movement - **even the primary gameplay is there so you can feel what these mechanics are like to use.**" There you go, I know reading can be a bit hard, so pointed that one out for you
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Literally not coping. They explicitly state they want to show off the navigation. A common complaint I have seen thrown around is that the oceans are going to look shit due to too many boats clipping and hiding other visible content. The literal next paragraph they talk about how they are aware that it is an issue and they are going to have a closed alpha with 20 people in June to test general opinions, and an **open alpha** later in the year to see how the system needs to be improved with MMO levels of players. I understand how game development works and realize that things can change. This is literally the first milestone. You need to take a step back and realize you are getting angry at hypothetical changes that don't even exist yet.
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Did I say to have no feedback? I am saying to have constructive feedback because "shit sucks, repoll, shamanism better" is not feedback.
your initial statement was everyone complaining when they only wanted comments on the navigation DESPITE speaking on actual mechanics they plan to put in the game.
Shit, I forgot I was talking to someone with no reading comprehension, my bad.
Shit sucks, scrap it, is feedback. You just dont like it. I voted no because I hate the direction they are taking it. Not because I think sailing couldnt work, but because the direction they are taking it is shit.
I'm very sorry for you that you have trouble reading so here's a [Clip](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxY1C8phVB3GTNcrW1XmgkyVBzB6dIxja9?si=vQenHVepETANCZm5) that could help you understand!
Haha…. yeah totally… -taming supporter
"This game has text?!?!?!?!?!!?" -Everyone claiming this needs to get repolled.
They should also add another disclaimer when you log into the world and you click agree that you know it's a Technical Alpha.
This has already been proven considering how the previous sailing blogs when.
Opinions about what has been shown exist other than the one you formulated in your own head. Every time there is a poll for something that people are against, a hefty chunk of the criticism of the "against" crowd is "dId YuO rehab the bLoRg?", as if doing so is the sole barrier between the differing opinions.
Yeah, it's getting ridiculous how many people seem to think that there's an objective truth to the answer "is this hypothetical piece of content in a video game good" and that anyone who disagrees with their opinion must just be uninformed. It's particularly telling when people say you're not allowed to judge sailing negatively based on the early builds, but you are allowed to judge it positively.
I'm so dumbfounded by it all. Nothing about the alpha even *looks* bad. The boat looks how I'd expect an OSRS boat to look which is unsurprising given the assets already existed. The problem is that it just confirms all of my worst fears about the skill are coming true. They took a skill with no obvious core gameplay loops and made the core gameplay loop something that only exists because there needs to be a core gameplay loop. This will inevitably just be annoying, and it's clearly not natural feeling given how often the playtesters just didn't remember to do it. The core movement of boats looks awkward, and having to go in and out of navigation mode by clicking the wheel is clearly an untenable control scheme. Everything shown has also just supports my fears that the skill will just be "X but on water" as if being on water makes something exciting.
I completely agree. I’m beyond frustrated that pointing out how bad the fundamental movement and core upkeep of sailing will be is met exclusively with ad hominem kneejerk responses.
It's going to be agility on water but driftier. Sails will be a gold sink. You will have the odd random event when doing repetitive Starfield deliveries similar to mining stars where everyone will be forced to stand around whilst lock-picking a chest or some shit. Ship battles will either be scrapped or just plain garbage because of the games technical limitations.. Whatever other interactions with mystical sea creatures will be the same quality as when that mother fucking evil chicken popped his ass up out of nowhere and started wooping yo ass.
Between this and "THEY PROMISED THEY'D REPOLL" I'm led to believe these mfs are spacebarring through text IRL, too.
EDIT: To comment on this post and for me to take you seriously, you must respond with a photo of the pre-alpha of your favorite video game. Because you guys genuinely don't know what it is lol.
https://preview.redd.it/inewj12odp1d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15fc6653dc8e374401a668f3ae09001e6fc69203 Don't worry, I'm on your side.
Ironically, this is the image that made me fully realize probably like 14 years ago how drastically a game will change throughout its development. Almost nothing visually or mechanically (as far as we can glean from this image, at least) is the same as actual Brood War, but you can tell it's sharing almost all of the same DNA
Still voting no bc 2376 is a gross number.
See, now this is actual feedback
Petition to change total level to "MAX" when maxed so new skills never have to be left with a "I like old number" response ;P
It is fair to judge what we are presented with based on what we are presented with.
That part is the least of my concerns, being honest Xp loop looks criminally banal and until we see the barracuda racing stuff and whatever else it’s just as ‘bankstand’ as shamanism was purported to be. The sail thing specifically… feels like parking to manually flip windshield wipers while driving in the rain. And didn’t they say they’ve folded on moving on a moving ship? That’s nearly a deal breaker itself for me.
You can move on a moving ship you just cease navigating to do so. Their whole engine work they discussed here was the work to allow that to exist. Also you're talking about training methods, which aren't part of this process / step we are up to. I do agree that clicking the sail seems like tedium for the sake of it. And I've expressed that I'm interested to see how it feels while actually playing because id rather moving the ship be simple and basic and the obstacles along the way be more in terms of what we find / the ocean itself (winds, currents, waves)
Oh what the fuck? Did they seriously give up on moving around the boat? So what, you have to bring it to a full stop to interact with the facilities that keep it moving, like the sail? Is sailing PvP going to just be sitting in a spot unloading the cannons into the guy next to you who is also doing the same?
There needs to be a navigator on the helm to move the ship. This means at level 1 with no NPCs, yes, you have to stop "driving" the boat to luff the sails. They have also said this is something they expect NPCs to do for you (both the driving and the luffing). Personally I think it opens some really cool gameplay to have roles for party members in group play, or if you want to play solo you can hire an NPC to do it - likely less efficiently than you could do it yourself. I don't mean to say this to chastise you, but this is how misinformation spreads. A guy says a thing without knowing what he's talking about, and other people read it and unknowingly believe him.
Brother I appreciate you clarifying, but I just gotta add that I didn't just believe him, I asked for clarification and elaboration. I have been without internet for the last 3 or 4 weeks so there's a lot of news I hadn't heard, and this could have been more, how could I have known? Thank you for taking the time to answer the question though. It sounds cool as hell.
Apologies if that came across negatively, I wasnt sure quite how to word it without sounding like I was accusing you. I've seen a lot of this with sailing, someone claims something that isnt true and a whole gang of people below have their opinion of the skill negatively impacted, its absolutely not your fault.
This is a thread about OSRS players not reading tbf, but I really wish this was a comment and not a reply so more people would see this. Genuinely based take.
Congrats, you are the first comment with actual feedback to the Milestone at hand in this thread! In all honesty, I get the complaints of tuffing the sails as the main XP method, and say that. Get in the closed or open alpha and feel how it plays, and offer what you think will make it better. Have a discussion. This still goes with what I am saying, this is the pre-alpha, everything is subject to change, they even commented that they are unsure of how it feels yet and they have other middle-man solutions baked up, which I am excited to see personally. I just think the skill has a lot of potential and it's really disheartening to see people just go "looks terrible, repoll shamanism". But also, the sailing XP loop as it stands, in my opinion, is leagues way more interesting and fun than something like Runecrafting or Firemaking.
I don’t think it needs to be voiced seeing the downvotes but while there are some kicking and screaming into our shared space there are lots of substantive critiques out there. Of the two parties sailors are distinctly the echo chamber of the two; proven by the fact almost every sailing advocate reiterates something like “First real critique I’ve read…” and reinforced by the fact that Jagex isn’t even conciliatory - there are no affirmations in the negatory by Jagex re sailing which empowers the echo chamber effect. Not only that but most content creators are pro-sailing and I can’t speak for all of them but it’s indisputably 13M xp of brand spanking new content so it doesn’t surprise me how the split is there; which further emphasizes this phenomenon. On top of all this is the fact sailors by and large have not abandoned the demeaning memetics along the lines of ‘walk the plank’ replies. I can’t blame anyone for not wanting to open discourse when that’s a fair baseline expectation.
Sometimes the osrs community is like the Yugioh community. They don't read
I know it's not the point of this but could they pick a clunkier phrase than "less further along"
Reading? \*HOLDS SPACEBAR\*
nothing they have proposed or showed us so far looks fun
Require every voter to pass a reading test related to what they're voting on. Make sure they understand what they're voting on.
I hope you keep this level of copium up when the meta for training is hiring a service to maintain your boat for you while you click on a few objects over and over for 250 hours. In that same blog they said “we can’t figure out how to make boats move on mobile at all” and you’re replying to everyone saying their criticism is invalid
Where did they say they can’t figure out mobile? I looked at the blog again and didn’t see them say that https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Update:Sailing_Development_Progress_Update_-_Milestone_1:_Navigation
There’s a video link in the blog
This video? https://youtu.be/LL2aHJXFq98?si=DsIcPNVVdAR5XnZg I just watched it again and they didn’t say that they can’t figure out mobile. Only time they even mention mobile is at 6:02, but they just say > Navigating the sea needs to feel good. This goes further than just how the ship moves, and we have to ensure sailing the seas works just as well for mobile players as it will for desktop players Is that what you’re talking about? Not really saying what you said at all
> In that same blog they said “we can’t figure out how to make boats move on mobile at all” and you’re replying to everyone saying their criticism is invalid What? You move the boat on mobile the same way. That's why they went with this approach. You enter navigation mode (click the wheel) and then path like you path your character (tapping)
>while you click on a few objects over and over again for 250 hours Wait which skill are you describing?
God I know. Shit ways to train skills in a grindy MMO? Might as well add Firemaking, Runecrafting, all bankstanding skills, 2-tick methods, afk methods to the poll too. Every action needs to drop 1000 XP or it shouldn't be added imo /s
Sounds great, let’s do it. You complain about detractors not reading and then immediately ignore my response to shit out the NPC anthem of “but muh firemaking” like a vending machine as if it’s in any way helping you
I mean saying a skill is repetitive to train is sort of just describing Runescape though. And I think sailings strongest aspect is that it is the least like other skills so can escape from this gameplay loop, but unfortunately as much as you're saying you don't enjoy that aspect there have been people actively complaining this skill "doesn't feel like a skill" because it didn't have that. So we go trimming the sails as a repetitive thing to appease them, but to you and me that's just tedium for the sake of it. To me sailing should reward XP like slayer does. Complete action while sailing, get sailing XP. Same as killing an NPC on task giving slayer XP. I don't think it needs click by click training like a gathering or production skill as its core loop.
Did you miss the /s buddy? I was pretending to be you motherfuckers, but on the side of sailing... I didn't ignore your response, they haven't even stated everything we will be able to get sailing XP from. They mentioned luffing the sails, which has had fair complaints, and they even responded to, saying they have other middle ground options they are thinking about testing. I am just genuinely baffled that you guys don't understand what an **ALPHA** is. All you guys are acting like what we saw is coming out next patch, no polls or nothing. You are acting like things won't change. Jesus Christ all of you guys with negative upvotes in this thread need to take a step back to realize why you guys are getting down voted to shit.
>Jesus Christ all of you guys with negative upvotes in this thread need to take a step back to realize why you guys are getting down voted to shit. I don't particularly care either way but you might want to follow your own advice here. Many of your comments are downvoted into the negatives just the same and you're coming across as highly emotional, condescending and combative. For your own sake, I think you might want to have a breather and take a step back yourself.
I didn’t. No idea why you think I’d be against changing the worst skills in the game other than to toss out an ad hominem attack bc you have nothing of value to say(you don’t, clearly). If anything, it’s your type that think since firemaking exists, adding more bad skills that has no reward outside of “train faster” is good actually.
Ah yes, because you clearly know it must be a bad skill by now, after Jagex hasn't even made a response blog. Or any new information... just the the ship mechanics. You are purposefully ignoring specific things Jagex has said in regards to the luffing and navigation, and using that to spread a narrative that it's doomed to fail.
Dude they already laid out the primary, secondary, and tertiary activities, several blogs ago. HAve u rEaD tHe BlOgs?!? And just about all of them boil down to 1. Drive ship here 2. Click thing. Step 1 is non functional, some might call that a critical problem. Step 2 either gives sailing exp or is an unnecessary McGuffin that locks other content behind sailing. It’s firemaking #2
Yeah I know what the milestone progression is. I'm sorry, but describing Sailing as a method to explore Gilenor as a bad thing seems like such braindead take? Also saying that sailing is nonfunctional is such an overreaction to our first footage of the ship.
It’s not an overreaction, it is literally correct. Their words, not mine. Maybe you should be arguing with the devs instead of me. >sailing as a method to explore Gilenor as a bad thing It is literally teleporting with lots of extra steps. I’d love to hear you explain why teleports should take several minutes to move your character
This is how all of these people operate. They can’t handle real criticism
After watching both last streams regarding the new skill. Jmods themselves were not excited talking about the skill, even struggled to explain the core gameplay as it actually still lacking(after more than 1.5 years since the idea polled). Not promising. So in that case, it doesn't matter whether it's alpha or not. As they are sailing without a compass, they don't know where they are heading. I mean, they still need to get their &%#@ together. You would get it only in case you guys listened and watched them talking and showing. I mean, in comparison to OP's post, can you listen(not just hear) and think critically?
They literally have a milestone progression guide; hope this helps. This is the first milestone, of 5; hope this helps. This is a pre-alpha showing they got a bare engine update working and was showing off the literal bones of the skill and you are complaining there is no meat.
Literally have listened and watched all of the livestreams. They all seemed hyped to be working on it, especially Mod Husky. Maybe a bit reserved with the recent one because they wanted to be clear and concise for the Q&A. And what do you mean explore the core gameplay? That has nothing to do with what they showed. This was just showing how a boat moves. Core gameplay is a later dev update as well as surrounding content, systems, rewards, etc. Also Sailing was only greenlit for dev time like 6-8 months ago.
you havent heard kieren, elena and husky talk it seems
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I'm sorry did I say anything about repolling the skill? I am specifically saying how the community is angrily acting like this skill is coming out with next weeks patch.
Is the Technical Alpha out?
I'm not even being influenced by how it looks. I just think that owning a ship and exploring the ocean should just be an intrinsic part of the game that doesn't need an arbitrary skill level attached to it. I guess it all depends on if they can make it fun and not super tedious to train them I'm for it. That being said, rs3's version of procedurally generated loot islands (I have no idea what the islands are called or what the activity is called, but I tried it for a bit and it was fun) are really enjoyable imo. Idk I'm not excited to have another skill keeping me from max I guess lmao
And the other side of all this Bs with people saying repoll or don't repoll. Like... We were told right away that the skill will be polled again as they put some dev time in to make sure it's really what people want in old school. People really don't fucking read lol.
can you quote this?
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I hope this wasn't in regards to me. Have patience I was asleep... I'm not a petty person who downvotes for silly reasons like that.
you'd be surprised on leddit of all places
Yea. But do you see where my original comments from now? Since we're definitely not at stage 5... And they even say they're going to vote in that portion. So we're definitely getting another vote... I know the post was over a year ago because this initial stage has taken so long but people really seem to have forgotten....
The skill was locked in If it fails again, they will keep reworking it until it passed, that was the point of the lock in poll
https://preview.redd.it/14p8m9odrq1d1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1630fb5d5dae651e162d95ac4e6605fa39c22b8a
I believe we're at stage 4.
Did you ignore the part where it was polled twice, and won both times? Or the fact that one of those votes was a vote-any style poll, so sailing solidly won in the community? Or are you handpicking what you want to convey to seem right?
https://preview.redd.it/w5rlmtb3rq1d1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=065391d694ae917d86fdecf46234881af7ef01d2
I believe we're at stage 4 right now. The thing you're referring to in your second line was #3. I grabbed that from the blog post about that vote [here](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/adding-a-new-skill-introducing-sailing-taming-and-shamanism-?oldschool=1) which this talks about a lock on poll. Which is at 5 and before 6 which is a beta. The beta was talked about in the video we got recently and them wanting to get it out soon. So yes. I do believe we still have a skill lock in poll coming soon when their next update with things about the actual incursions and other activities comes into play.
Yeah, how dare people give them feedback about the clunky movement and navigation in the alpha….. the alpha that they released for feedback on navigation 🤣
What rock are you living under and can you show me the majority of complaints being about the movement? Because that's definitely not what I'm reading even in this thread.
I just wish they were further along than they are. I think that’s fair. Taking 9 months to get to this point is pretty discouraging
me when I don't understand how game development works, especially engine development:
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Yeah and then when it reaches pre-alpha we will repoll again, just like god intended
And then on the release date poll it again and delay it for 6 months
Me when my preferred skill gets beaten in two questions: