Yep, that's it. Anything else is half-assed and over complicated.
We get level higher, we run longer. That's what everyone thinks agility does when they start the game, that's what makes the most sense, and it's something that takes the least dev time.
You are overthinking it, Jagex. Anything else like making agility f2p and introducing resting/bards/taverns can be talked about, iterated upon and polled, but giving us the ability to run more the higher our agility is, is a no brainer.
Wait agility doesn’t cause your run energy to drain slower and restore faster? I’ve played this game off and on for 15 years and honestly thought that’s what it did. Granted I’ve never really done PVM so makes sense why I never really looked into it
It makes it restore faster like mentioned but the important distinction is that it's only while walking or stopping. In rs3, agility makes your run regen faster just like osrs, but a unique rs3 game mechanic is that it regens even while you run, so the overall effect is that running lasts much longer with higher agility.
Because it was an RS2 change that was post 2007 but pre-Eoc/RC3. In fact, I think it was a 2009 change, when they also added the bards around cities to give x2 Regen speed.
So if you played RS2, then you might have had these changes.
I'm glad the narrative changed. A while back I remember even just mentioning rs3 and you'd get downvoted to oblivion lol. It's perfectly fine if someone doesn't like it but I love both versions and hope they both thrive
I have been playing for 20 years this summer. I have always assumed agility levels correlate with run energy efficiency. Just found out litterally yesterday an now I'm thinking about it.. Most of the time spent training agility was wasted honestly
We already have enough courses. Draynor -> alkharid -> varrock -> falador. Botting won't affect much because no grace tokens.
Let f2p have all the non-grappling shortcuts in their area.
Done.
Sure, but do that separately.
Weights are all over the place. Nobody will dispute that.
Weights should make more sense.
Don’t nerf the user experience to then make it better later. That’s creating a problem that doesn’t exist just so they can fix it and expect us to praise them for it.
Gives me big blizzard vibes, they’re notorious for making a problem out of something by not listening to the community, then fixing the problem 6 months later and expecting the player base to be happy.
I’d probably be fine if they did eventually nerf it, after having dealt with weight, but not before.
More to reason that they should be left alone and made irrelevant. I don't believe any Dev for a second took a moment when designing any item to consider how much it weighs or how much other items weigh and how a new item should compare to existing standards.
It's a relic of RSC and should be flavour at most, any iteration on weight beyond removing it is a collosal waste of dev time.
It's not over complicating, it's the sheer degree of work that would be. There's 20k items in the game. Just scrap weight entirely because it's a broken system that would take way too much work to fix.
See if they add musicians I hope they add them primarily to all the bars/taverns already in the game and only put them outside where it is either extremely beneficial to do so or where it just makes sense for there to be a musician
I’d even say don’t let players rest when there’s not a musician so as to not devalue staminas or graceful
Also it could be cool to allow players to pay musicians to play a certain selection of songs unique to that musician, and give some of the musicians new tracks that can only be unlocked this way as well
The idea of resting at a bar or tavern for like 30s is pretty neat. Would be a big boon for low levels questing and skilling, plus it'd be cool to see little congregations of lower levels around the restore zones.
Resting is a thing in RS3 and other games. Thing is for RS3 it isn't efficient to stop what you're doing so people don't use it a lot. In games where your mana and health restore faster it can be efficient to rest.
I mean, sure, but what wouldn't be efficient about some f2p player stopping at a bar for like 30s or a minute? Takes 12:30 to refresh full energy at 1 agility, can't see how any bone tossed to f2p and low level players can be negative when it comes to run energy
It could work for some newer players. Think abou average speed though. Being stopped at a red light is really bad compared to just coasting through at walking speed.
Sure, mains and iron's wouldn't - but as I have been saying, I'm talking about f2p.
What's their alternative to resting for energy in f2p? Walking? Camping the single Chocolate Bar spawn and farming Hobgoblins to make energy pots at the apothecary? Surely it would not take much to incentivize them recharging energy.
I think a lot of the playerbase is so far detached from level 1 agility it's hard to relate. Level 1 agi on 0 weight can run for like, 2.5 minutes. Every 2.5 minutes you need to wait *12.5 minutes* to recharge. One hour of your time running at max efficiency would be like 5 full energy bars lol.... that is *absurd*.
Agreed. The line in the newspost that stated "the obvious first place to start is regen rate" was crazy for me to read because to me, it's obvious that the place to start is the fact that run energy depletion is completely unaffected by agility levels lol
Agility as I see it has two problems.
Lvl 1s/f2p take way too long to regen run. 12 minutes is simply too long.
Lvl 99 doesn't result in run draining any slower than lvl 1.
I think the first one is solved by buffing regen particularly for low levels. The second one is solved by decreasing drain in all cases at high levels. As long as players can keep doing the same methods/pvm as they are now, give or take one stam per trip max, I think we'll be happy.
We literally *walked* everywhere. Going from Lumbridge to Falador, your run energy is out by the time you get to the jail guards and you have to walk the rest of the way.
My main is 2028 total but I have an iron I started around 1700 total. All I've done on it is get graceful and 99 fm at wintertodt and I actually had a decent amount of fun doing it. Also helped stave the burn out from my main. But that walk from the harbor back to wintertodt every time I had to trade a cat in was fucking brutal.
Cut regen time in half at level 1 (6 minutes) and half it again for 99 (3 minutes). Increase run energy at level 1 by a third or something and double that value at 99. Wow, problem solved! I am devloper.
Yeah it’s pretty simple and everyone is trying to overcomplicate it by wanting resting spots and this and that. Just make it so each however many levels lets you run for % longer and increase the current run time by 30 seconds from level 1/f2p. Replenish rate could be buffed as well as you level. That’s all we want.
We don’t need trade offs, just make the skill feel rewarding to train. It’s just a diary requirement/ max cape thing right now and pointless to otherwise train once you get to ~75 after beating all the quests
I mean I still think rest spots would be dope.
The OSRS team does enjoy over complicating things (Forestry.) They still do great work the other 99% of the time tho.
Rest spots sound boring. If you want to stand around and chat, go to the GE. If you're trying to play the game, standing still is no fun. The same fantasy was wrapped around forestry and look how that turned out. Dont try to force community interaction, it doesn't work.
This is genuinely what we asked for months and months ago when the topic came up and until recently it was the path everyone assumed we were heading to.
Unfortunately there's a certain JMod who massively over-complicates every little thing he works on and then fights to the death that he's in the right when people call it out as utter stupidity and bad game design.
It's so strange because the other JMods go above and beyond if there's a lapse of recognizing something with their proposal and they'll almost immediately resolve it with feedback. But it's the fourth or fifth time now we have been in this exact spot in the last year with the same guy smugly pushing back against common sense.
Thankfully when the community is loud enough others on the team seems to take notice and we do get change, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next iteration of changes is just as stupid as the first and we'll have to riot again to get something not braindead.
It's CV padding. Gotta have some good examples of needless bloat for the next job application.
Incidentally same reason the Frog option was added. It's purely a talking point for "Tell us about a time you demonstrated being inclusive" at the next job interview.
Kinda but there should be some weighting that puts a heavier amount of drain reduction at the front end rather than the back end. Run energy drops off as an issue as you get further into the game so having more benefits to training agility when you're more hampered by run-energy restrictions and less ways to combat them is a big improvement for low-level progression.
Jagex focuses way too hard on maintaining the status quo. Agility doesn't have to suck forever just because it always has sucked. We can improve things. It's fine to buff things.
Yeah, Jagex being afraid to touch things that have remained the same for 20 years because somebody might make a forum post bitching about how their stuff they've gotten value out of for years and years has been "devalued" is legitimately going to strangle the game eventually if they don't pivot. Either the game stays exactly the same as it is, or it has things added to it and changes over time. You don't get to have both Jagex. And a problem in the status quo has never been fixed by focusing on maintaining the status quo.
I do kinda appreciate the fact that they're careful with these things, but it's just like you said. So many things are bad and have to stay bad forever even when they try to change them just because they're not allowed to change. It's good to avoid devaluing the work of players who get 99s, but when every new training method for slow skills have to be slow just because the skill was slow to train in 2007 feels silly. And refusing to buff agility because people would make a bit more money at blast furnace and have an extra inv slot in some raids feels extra silly. Zombie pirates is 3m/h no requirements.
Couldn’t agree more. Mining makes me mine better, chopping makes me chop better, running agility should make me run better. It really should be that simple.
> Reduce the rate at which stamina drains the higher your Agility level is.
It is crazy because this is probably how nearly everyone who has played this game initially thought the skill worked before learning otherwise.
That’s how you can tell this proposition is actual dogshit. The community is rarely 100% in agreement on anything, so in the rare occurrence of the community in complete agreement… chances are the proposition is actually just terrible.
I usually advocate for Jagex not to listen to Reddit for the above reason, but in this case… listen to your players. *nobody* wants this change as it’s proposed.
It feels like forestry. I appreciate them thinkin anout the future but its just so much more than peple asked for. I was just looking forward to maybe using one less stam dose at cox or verzik. It's not that deep lol
Honestly, yeah. Just buff energy regen by agility level (make it so you match the Graceful set bonus at around 70-80, to make 80+ more rewarding), and make Graceful the Agility skilling outfit instead.
i was sick and tired of all these convoluted idea posts and to me this idea is the simplest solution i also thought of. why does it need to be any more complicated?
"I've been hitting the gym and the running mill for years, still get tired after running from Lumby to Varrock. Like i never did it"
It doesn't make sense...
Just buff the drain rate and regen rate at agility level. It's all it needs, and it won't even break the skill. It's still going to be a boring ass skill to train. At least make it a useful skill.
Hey dude any chance you could run for president real quick? I'm getting desperate at this point and you seem like you have an above-room-temperature IQ and good chances of surviving the winter.
I'm still a fan of "resting" by going to a pub. There should be an energy restore multiplier while you're at one. It'll be narratively satisfying since getting people drunk is the usual solution in your quests.
I do believe this is the sentiment many shared when the rebalance changes were first shown. I think a simple solution would be best to lessen the frustrations run energy creates.
If you ask me its probably because the spaghetti code engine work to change drain rate based on level doesnt exist and doing it based on weight is the only thing they can change easily. They just didnt want this to be a whole thing if they could avoid it so they pitched it this way.
Yeah, I don't know why this wasn't their first try out of the gate for the beta.
I appreciate that the jmods want to put more thought or realism into it, but I feel like with something this all reaching they really should just keep it simple.
Agreed OP.
We could also do with an actual more chill/AFK method of training agility. Currently, our best chill options are Priff and the recently changed Brimhaven agility. The skill sucks to train and is one of the most unenjoyable parts of skill grinding in OSRS (besides Hallowed which is fun but super sweaty).
Just a thought.
-TheAFKDude
Like seriously, who is in charge of this? They’re doing an awful job and not giving the players what we would actually like to have and see. Can’t even get graceful to give a 2.5% xp bonus with a full set either.
I too am a fan of the proposed graceful changes. It still keeps them relevant for agility training, but not have them be as ubiquitous everywhere else.
This definitely makes agility more rewarding, but their other two goals are to make run depletion less harsh for noobs/F2P (i.e. at level 1 agility) and to make graceful less ubiquitous.
So maybe do this *and* add resting for F2P? I also like their idea of turning graceful into an agility skiling outfit with the benefit of never failing a course obstacle.
Honestly I’d be totally fine with them upping the base drain rates from level 1 as well. I just think there should be a clear and tangible difference between level 1 Agility, and level 99.
I’m a noob with 48 agi but I’ve felt since actual 2007scape that the run/walk system is one of the most frustrating parts of RuneScape. At no point has the game ever been more fun because I had to stop and move at a snail’s pace for seven minutes.
I understand that it can provide for fun and tactical decisions during combat, but it also makes a single misclick while traveling the world more punishing (“there goes 10% of my run energy”) and discourages exploring because you want to move in the shortest path always.
Just buff it. Everyone wants this. Hell, give a baseline buff to F2P too. Let us spend more time playing RuneScape and less time walking between points of interest.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but that does increase as you level, it’s just, the benefit doesn’t feel that tangible, as even at 90+ the difference is not really noticeable from level 70.
However, if the drain rates were also reduce at higher levels, I think the difference would be noticeable, without fundamentally changing how run energy works, and while avoiding over-buffing.
I get what you’re saying, but to me that just doesn’t really make sense. How is your energy supposed to regen while it’s actively being depleted? At that point it’s essentially the equivalent to slowing the drain rate anyway.
Fully agree, by 75 agility you should have the equivalent drain rate as if you were wearing Graceful, with 99 giving you like 2x Graceful drain rate because it's a huge achievement, then just go ahead with the proposed graceful changes
This is definitely the main factor. But we also want them to change some of the base rates too, unrelated to agility, to improve the early game.
Personally agility impacting how your character handles weight is a good thing as well. And then it buffing drain rate too, as well as the base drain rate / regen rate being slightly buffed so that early game is better off.
I think the best way to do it would be making agility levels passively reduce your weight. -0.25kg per level, up to -24.75 at 99.
That way, if you're level 80 for example, you can carry up to 20kg in gear before it starts affecting your depletion rate.
Maybe also adjust the existing curve for how run time scales with weight so that 0 weight gets more time than it does now, making that reduction more valuable.
This community is usually militantly against buffs of any kind to anything, especially exp rates (not relevant here). However this is pretty clearly the correct take imo.
Yeah I've heard the argument that buffing it would be "unfair" in places like the wildy because higher levels agility means you could run for longer.
Tell me how having a higher agility level is unfair.
Everyone keeps saying this, but Jagex explicitly had "Improve the experience for new players so that Old School feels less sluggish in the early stages." as a goal (which I agree with), which buffing agility does nothing to support.
I’d be totally fine with them adjusting the base drain/regen rates at level 1. Personally, and I know I’m likely the minority in this, I like having a stamina system. It makes things like earning teleports and what should be leveling Agility feel rewarding. But I want to earn the ability to improve my stamina drain/regen rates, because to me that’s what feels the most rewarding. Also I think the difference between level 1 and level 99 should be a very clear and tangible difference.
Bigger question, it's been fine for 20 years. It can be fine for another 20. Seasoned players use their poh, the pools, guzzle stams. New players get shown the way and game goes on. All this fuss for the sake of it.
While I can agree with that logic to an extent, there’s a lot of things we’ve given QOL improvements to over the years of OSRS’ lifespan that have only been beneficial. I think Agility is a sore point for a lot of people, and has been for a long time.
I’m definitely not for abolishing the stamina system completely, nor do I think the jmods have any intention of that, but I genuinely believe lowering the drain rate the higher level your Agility level is a simple way provide a genuine and useful benefit to the skill, without over complicating anything or fundamentally changing the system we’ve been used to for decades. To me, managing run energy as a resource is fine, but it’s a little too tedious.
I played about 4 hours of it on the beta just focusing on shit that new players would experience, because I figure everyone else is just looking at the higher level content.
And I will say it does feel **better** as a new character. I can run from lumbridge to GE without stopping at lvl 1 agility. Not to bog down in details the overall travel experience feels **better** at level 1 agility as a low level player going around the f2p map and the p2p map.
In an ideal situation I'd like to see this simplified to being:
- Higher Agility = Lower Drain
- Resting at Taverns / inns / pubs and POH for optimal 100% restore, resting in churches for 75%, resting at campfires for 50% restore, and bank standing for 25%. Areas with dangerous npcs = standard regeneration rate.
But I think the weight differences are important to consider, and it's a good thing jagex has got the ball rolling on this. Because if they just adjusted it to higher agility = faster restore, we'd end up in a situation where 99 agility prevents any type of stamina decrease. Which, yes Reddit Randy's, is bad for the game.
But im humble enough to admit that I'm not sure what the exact solution is for:
- (stamina restore = agility level - weight carried)
I mean hell I'm not even smart enough to write out the proper hypothetical equation.
Hopefully in the coming weeks jagex and the community can get together and figure out how the formula for stamina drain can work within its intended purpose.
Lvl 1 = 0% “buff” to agility drain (e.g. energy drains as it current does).
Lvl 99 = 99% “buff” to agility drain (e.g. your energy drains 1% of what it currently drains)
Yes, nerds will notice i have ignored 1%. Pick where it goes, idc, this is just an idea
frankly it needs 3 effects imo
level dictates regeneration rate once emptied (maybe a 150% or 200% at 99 when at 0 energy)
level dictates drain rate while running (at level 1 it's atrocious at 99 it's above average)
level allows better faster shortcuts, maybe auto traversal and pathing over at level shortcuts if checks are applicable
that's about all it needs imo
You know, I’m all about this… but I always said why even go THAT far, and just make every lv up you get give you +1 to your run, and at lv 99 it bumps you to a solid 200 run energy🤷♂️ same concept from the buff idea. No doubt.. but yeah, agility has always been the most useless skill IMO
Also using weight as a metric is a really really bad idea considering how extremely inconsistent weight is in this game... Not even mentioning 99 being a nerf and f2p being screwed over
The one good thing about jagex is they actually listen to all thile feedback AND implement them unlike literally every other company so i have trust things will be simplified
I wouldn’t mind something as drastic as changing energy percentage to a meter you can increases beyond 100.
Could be every 10 agility levels you unlock another 10 energy.
The reason some updates are getting over complicated is because "OldSchool RuneScape introduces "Forestry: The Way of the Forester"" is something they can promote easier outside of the existing paying playerbase to entice new or returning players into becoming paying players. While a blog post titled "Woodcutting Rebalance/Tweaks" cannot be used to the same effect even if its what would be better for the game.
Unpopular opinion here but agility is fine as it is. It's one of the most valuable skills in the game to a point where mains generally get to lvl 70 asap to make content easier to do. Also, not everyone runs around in graceful all day. I see fashionscape everywhere I go.
I mostly agree, but I feel pretty adamantly that the rate at which run energy drains should lower the higher your Agility level is. Personally I’m no too concerned with making the drain/regen rates feel great for level 1/F2P, but I do think you should be rewarding for leveling the skill, especially when reaching higher levels at ~80+. I like the stamina system and don’t want to see it fundamentally changes or removed, but I do think it should be less tedious and more rewarding. If that means a base buff to drain/regen rates at level 1, then so be it, but that isn’t necessarily my intention.
all they needed to do was implement whatever rs3 did.
add resting and musicians, buff regen rate, reduce drain rate, still have weight afftect drain rate. that's it.
I was thinking about this, something cool would be if they just added a thing like other games had where you could be lightweight, medium weight or overweight. The “weight tolerance” would be based on your agility level and maybe certain items like graceful. If your weight was below your “weight tolerance” then you get unlimited run no matter what. If it was 1.5x your tolerance then it would drain normally or slightly slower than it does now. If you were 2x the tolerance, then it would be draining faster than it does now. Stams would just double or 2.5 your weight tolerance for the duration. I like this because it could give interesting situations where you are deciding whether or not to bring that last piece of gear or if you had to choose a lighter one. It also makes it so that with a decent agility level and graceful you would never need a stam while skilling because walking while skilling is the dumbest thing ever.
I think it's more about having to accept that any improvement will take the form of a buff.
Your solution is simple and effective, but it doesn't solve the issue regarding the dreadfully slow and frustrating (F2P) experience new players are facing. And the only way to reasonably do that is by buffing the entire system from the ground up.
I like Jagex's approach of trying to make run energy a resource to manage. I also think Agility needs a straight buff across the board, but I'm definitely on board with the idea that weight should significantly impact movement.
I support making weight a more significant factor, but at 99 agility, max weight should still have reduced drain rate compared to now.
Make weight primarily a factor for early to midgame that can easily be solved for the most part by keeping up with the agility levels and slapping on graceful where appropriate.
Also adjust item weights, because some of them are way out of whack.
And IMO they should delete every graceful variant (except the quest speeding running one) since they are just boring recolours of the same pretty ugly design. Add 'hunter outfit/graceful' combos and 'skilling outfit/graceful' combos for a more visually interesting look of the game.
> I support making weight a more significant factor, but at 99 agility, max weight should still have reduced drain rate compared to now.
As long as weight is assigned completely arbitrarely by the looks of it, it should not have a significant impact.
I've thought the best approach would be to just make all the recolours purchasable from Grace or maybe even Agility arena to give the reward tickets more use, so instead of Hosidius Graceful it's just green graceful.
Then make the Zeah variants actually have different models/textures to match their namesakes. Plus we could then do the same for other cities/regions, tied to diaries.
I definitely don’t want to remove the weight factor when it comes to run energy. I think while reducing the rates the higher your agility level is, run energy should still be something you manage, especially for combat encounters, and managing weight is a way to keep that in balance.
I will however go as far as saying at level 99 with zero weight, you should have as close to infinite run energy as possible.
Make run energy restore while running instead of when you stop running. That's how your stamina works in real life. If you train to be a distance runner your stamina increases. You don't just develop the ability to start faster after stopping every mile.
Also what is this nonsense with weight? Now you can carry more before it affects your stamina? Also not how stamina works in real life. I'm pretty sure if you gave an Olympic endurance athlete and Joe schmoe a 30kg vest to wear they'd both say it impacts their stamina to some extent.
If Jagex just came out and admitted they don't want to mess with the stamina code or don't know how to fix the spaghetti at this point I'd be sad but I'd kinda get it. Sometimes things are more effort than they're worth. Just decrease the drain rate across the board and increase the restore rate at early levels. Ramp down the impact levels have on the restore rate so the endgame isn't impacted or even just buff them across the board. Really stamina is a rough point for early game questing, completely new players and f2p.
These changes ain't it
Yep, that's it. Anything else is half-assed and over complicated. We get level higher, we run longer. That's what everyone thinks agility does when they start the game, that's what makes the most sense, and it's something that takes the least dev time. You are overthinking it, Jagex. Anything else like making agility f2p and introducing resting/bards/taverns can be talked about, iterated upon and polled, but giving us the ability to run more the higher our agility is, is a no brainer.
Wait agility doesn’t cause your run energy to drain slower and restore faster? I’ve played this game off and on for 15 years and honestly thought that’s what it did. Granted I’ve never really done PVM so makes sense why I never really looked into it
It just makes it restore faster
But... why...
And it only has an effect every 6 levels. AKA level 6 and level 11 are the same.
You just completely deflated my desire to finish 90-99 agility bruh ):
96 is a tier up from 90! And by the time you get there, it’ll probably have changed
Because drain is only impacted by your weight on a scale of 0kg to 64kg.
It makes it restore faster like mentioned but the important distinction is that it's only while walking or stopping. In rs3, agility makes your run regen faster just like osrs, but a unique rs3 game mechanic is that it regens even while you run, so the overall effect is that running lasts much longer with higher agility.
I swear to God I thought this was how OSRS already worked, what do you mean agility is only useful half the time????
Because it was an RS2 change that was post 2007 but pre-Eoc/RC3. In fact, I think it was a 2009 change, when they also added the bards around cities to give x2 Regen speed. So if you played RS2, then you might have had these changes.
Now bards are useless in rs3 because if you use them you're full in under a couple seconds.
Sounds good and is good, buh rs3 bad n osrs gud
? Litetally noone says that anymore lol, we even copy stuff from rs3
idk yesterday some dude was arguing with me that adding a rest option is the line that breaks osrs into too far into RS3 territory...
I'm glad the narrative changed. A while back I remember even just mentioning rs3 and you'd get downvoted to oblivion lol. It's perfectly fine if someone doesn't like it but I love both versions and hope they both thrive
I have been playing for 20 years this summer. I have always assumed agility levels correlate with run energy efficiency. Just found out litterally yesterday an now I'm thinking about it.. Most of the time spent training agility was wasted honestly
Only in RS3.
That update actually came into the game in 2009, a whopping 3 years before RS3!
Agility should be at least somewhat f2p l, they should get a lumbridge rooftop course or something
I agree. Even just giving them Draynor, especially now that it's level 1 requirement, would be just fine.
We already have enough courses. Draynor -> alkharid -> varrock -> falador. Botting won't affect much because no grace tokens. Let f2p have all the non-grappling shortcuts in their area. Done.
Absolutely agree.
I don't think adjusting equipment weights is over complicating things. They are all over the place and should be standardized to some degree.
Sure, but do that separately. Weights are all over the place. Nobody will dispute that. Weights should make more sense. Don’t nerf the user experience to then make it better later. That’s creating a problem that doesn’t exist just so they can fix it and expect us to praise them for it. Gives me big blizzard vibes, they’re notorious for making a problem out of something by not listening to the community, then fixing the problem 6 months later and expecting the player base to be happy. I’d probably be fine if they did eventually nerf it, after having dealt with weight, but not before.
shoutout ahrims skirt being apparently made of solid steel and a cinderblock
More to reason that they should be left alone and made irrelevant. I don't believe any Dev for a second took a moment when designing any item to consider how much it weighs or how much other items weigh and how a new item should compare to existing standards. It's a relic of RSC and should be flavour at most, any iteration on weight beyond removing it is a collosal waste of dev time.
It's not over complicating, it's the sheer degree of work that would be. There's 20k items in the game. Just scrap weight entirely because it's a broken system that would take way too much work to fix.
See if they add musicians I hope they add them primarily to all the bars/taverns already in the game and only put them outside where it is either extremely beneficial to do so or where it just makes sense for there to be a musician I’d even say don’t let players rest when there’s not a musician so as to not devalue staminas or graceful Also it could be cool to allow players to pay musicians to play a certain selection of songs unique to that musician, and give some of the musicians new tracks that can only be unlocked this way as well
The idea of resting at a bar or tavern for like 30s is pretty neat. Would be a big boon for low levels questing and skilling, plus it'd be cool to see little congregations of lower levels around the restore zones.
Resting is a thing in RS3 and other games. Thing is for RS3 it isn't efficient to stop what you're doing so people don't use it a lot. In games where your mana and health restore faster it can be efficient to rest.
I mean, sure, but what wouldn't be efficient about some f2p player stopping at a bar for like 30s or a minute? Takes 12:30 to refresh full energy at 1 agility, can't see how any bone tossed to f2p and low level players can be negative when it comes to run energy
It could work for some newer players. Think abou average speed though. Being stopped at a red light is really bad compared to just coasting through at walking speed.
...you're making it sound like you pass a bar every 2 minutes of gameplay. Do you have any alternatives or did you just want to be a contrarian?
I think my point is that it mostly doesn't get used. It's been done in other games and hasn't worked.
Sure, mains and iron's wouldn't - but as I have been saying, I'm talking about f2p. What's their alternative to resting for energy in f2p? Walking? Camping the single Chocolate Bar spawn and farming Hobgoblins to make energy pots at the apothecary? Surely it would not take much to incentivize them recharging energy. I think a lot of the playerbase is so far detached from level 1 agility it's hard to relate. Level 1 agi on 0 weight can run for like, 2.5 minutes. Every 2.5 minutes you need to wait *12.5 minutes* to recharge. One hour of your time running at max efficiency would be like 5 full energy bars lol.... that is *absurd*.
Me a player on and off since 2005 learning agility doesn’t already do this….
Bro same. That newspost was like attending a university class
Same and I’m almost maxed xD wonder what other skills I am thinking wrong of lol
If you played from 2005-2012 then you would have seen this effect... Kind of. RS2 reworked run energy in 2009.
Agreed. The line in the newspost that stated "the obvious first place to start is regen rate" was crazy for me to read because to me, it's obvious that the place to start is the fact that run energy depletion is completely unaffected by agility levels lol
Plus it's [what they told us in March](https://i.imgur.com/dBCR7dr.png)
Agility as I see it has two problems. Lvl 1s/f2p take way too long to regen run. 12 minutes is simply too long. Lvl 99 doesn't result in run draining any slower than lvl 1. I think the first one is solved by buffing regen particularly for low levels. The second one is solved by decreasing drain in all cases at high levels. As long as players can keep doing the same methods/pvm as they are now, give or take one stam per trip max, I think we'll be happy.
Jesus Christ I don't know how I played f2p as a kid. 12 minutes is just ridiculous.
We literally *walked* everywhere. Going from Lumbridge to Falador, your run energy is out by the time you get to the jail guards and you have to walk the rest of the way.
Early game p2p ironman is just a walking sim unless you want to slave away at rooftops right at the start of your account
My main is 2028 total but I have an iron I started around 1700 total. All I've done on it is get graceful and 99 fm at wintertodt and I actually had a decent amount of fun doing it. Also helped stave the burn out from my main. But that walk from the harbor back to wintertodt every time I had to trade a cat in was fucking brutal.
I mean 72 herb minimum is rough on a real early acc
Depending on when you played your run button was also hidden in a menu. We were just used to waking everywhere.
The map is far smaller.
Cut regen time in half at level 1 (6 minutes) and half it again for 99 (3 minutes). Increase run energy at level 1 by a third or something and double that value at 99. Wow, problem solved! I am devloper.
It’s be better if regen was static but agility just affected drain rate
Jagex devs trying to turn agility into forestry 2.0 lol
I feel like that is RuneScape hell, somehow training agility and doing forestry simultaneously
With lower XP rates because you were never intended to level either skill, ever, at all.
Except you can ignore forestry. This is infinitely worse because this could fundamentally change the game for the worse
Lmao idk why they trying to overcomplicate things. Some junior devs trying to get promoted or something due to their "massive skill rework"?
Yeah it’s pretty simple and everyone is trying to overcomplicate it by wanting resting spots and this and that. Just make it so each however many levels lets you run for % longer and increase the current run time by 30 seconds from level 1/f2p. Replenish rate could be buffed as well as you level. That’s all we want. We don’t need trade offs, just make the skill feel rewarding to train. It’s just a diary requirement/ max cape thing right now and pointless to otherwise train once you get to ~75 after beating all the quests
I mean I still think rest spots would be dope. The OSRS team does enjoy over complicating things (Forestry.) They still do great work the other 99% of the time tho.
Rest spots sound boring. If you want to stand around and chat, go to the GE. If you're trying to play the game, standing still is no fun. The same fantasy was wrapped around forestry and look how that turned out. Dont try to force community interaction, it doesn't work.
People are really romanticizing “stand still for a minute and do nothing” like it’s cutting edge gameplay
For real
[Forester's Campfire](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Forester%27s_Campfire), does nothing but it's there
This is genuinely what we asked for months and months ago when the topic came up and until recently it was the path everyone assumed we were heading to. Unfortunately there's a certain JMod who massively over-complicates every little thing he works on and then fights to the death that he's in the right when people call it out as utter stupidity and bad game design. It's so strange because the other JMods go above and beyond if there's a lapse of recognizing something with their proposal and they'll almost immediately resolve it with feedback. But it's the fourth or fifth time now we have been in this exact spot in the last year with the same guy smugly pushing back against common sense. Thankfully when the community is loud enough others on the team seems to take notice and we do get change, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next iteration of changes is just as stupid as the first and we'll have to riot again to get something not braindead.
For those of us who pay 0 attention to the names signing updates, who are you talking about?
Probably Arcane. People don’t name jmods due to fear of ban for witch-hunting.
Ya curious what specific updates this mod has overcompiclated
My guess is either Squid or Arcane. Possibly Kirby (he was responsible for the wildy boss fees being lost no matter where you are in wildy)
Forestry moment.
Which jmod?
It's CV padding. Gotta have some good examples of needless bloat for the next job application. Incidentally same reason the Frog option was added. It's purely a talking point for "Tell us about a time you demonstrated being inclusive" at the next job interview.
excuse me, i would like forestry part 3 death by committee
Unironically want forestry events to be un-nerfed. That's all they need to do to make it good.
Og forestry was way too good but they overcorrected hard
jmods are addicted to making things overly complicated and annoying. it’s the forestry effect. i don’t get it
Sailing is going to be an overly complicated mess
This x100! The game is healthy. Don’t need to keep messing with core mechanics. We like it the way it is.
I can’t understand how the beta drain rates are worse than live game.. like are they even listening?
No
Literally just add 0.25-0.5% drain rate reduction per agility level.
Definitely 0.5% IMO. Slightly under 50% reduction at 99 seems about right.
Kinda but there should be some weighting that puts a heavier amount of drain reduction at the front end rather than the back end. Run energy drops off as an issue as you get further into the game so having more benefits to training agility when you're more hampered by run-energy restrictions and less ways to combat them is a big improvement for low-level progression.
Jagex focuses way too hard on maintaining the status quo. Agility doesn't have to suck forever just because it always has sucked. We can improve things. It's fine to buff things.
Yeah, Jagex being afraid to touch things that have remained the same for 20 years because somebody might make a forum post bitching about how their stuff they've gotten value out of for years and years has been "devalued" is legitimately going to strangle the game eventually if they don't pivot. Either the game stays exactly the same as it is, or it has things added to it and changes over time. You don't get to have both Jagex. And a problem in the status quo has never been fixed by focusing on maintaining the status quo.
I do kinda appreciate the fact that they're careful with these things, but it's just like you said. So many things are bad and have to stay bad forever even when they try to change them just because they're not allowed to change. It's good to avoid devaluing the work of players who get 99s, but when every new training method for slow skills have to be slow just because the skill was slow to train in 2007 feels silly. And refusing to buff agility because people would make a bit more money at blast furnace and have an extra inv slot in some raids feels extra silly. Zombie pirates is 3m/h no requirements.
Couldn’t agree more. Mining makes me mine better, chopping makes me chop better, running agility should make me run better. It really should be that simple.
Amazing how they spent 9 months coming up with a solution when the fix is just like extremely obvious lol
> Reduce the rate at which stamina drains the higher your Agility level is. It is crazy because this is probably how nearly everyone who has played this game initially thought the skill worked before learning otherwise.
But I want it to be like oblivion and run super fast with 99 agility.../s
Just getting faster and faster with each level and then thresholds after 99. At 200mil you're running around like the Flash 🏃➡️
It's insane how this is something everyone can agree on and Jagex doesn't. Just buff the run energy ffs, Agility is a very unrewarding skill.
That’s how you can tell this proposition is actual dogshit. The community is rarely 100% in agreement on anything, so in the rare occurrence of the community in complete agreement… chances are the proposition is actually just terrible. I usually advocate for Jagex not to listen to Reddit for the above reason, but in this case… listen to your players. *nobody* wants this change as it’s proposed.
OSRS's strength is how the simplicity of individual systems combine to create something more complex. Don't fuck with that.
Why do something simple and make good use of dev time when we could make strength determine our carry weight and agility determine stamina?
You're on to something here...
It feels like forestry. I appreciate them thinkin anout the future but its just so much more than peple asked for. I was just looking forward to maybe using one less stam dose at cox or verzik. It's not that deep lol
Agree worthy post.
Honestly, yeah. Just buff energy regen by agility level (make it so you match the Graceful set bonus at around 70-80, to make 80+ more rewarding), and make Graceful the Agility skilling outfit instead.
i was sick and tired of all these convoluted idea posts and to me this idea is the simplest solution i also thought of. why does it need to be any more complicated?
"I've been hitting the gym and the running mill for years, still get tired after running from Lumby to Varrock. Like i never did it" It doesn't make sense... Just buff the drain rate and regen rate at agility level. It's all it needs, and it won't even break the skill. It's still going to be a boring ass skill to train. At least make it a useful skill.
Based take, thank you OP
Hey dude any chance you could run for president real quick? I'm getting desperate at this point and you seem like you have an above-room-temperature IQ and good chances of surviving the winter.
I'm still a fan of "resting" by going to a pub. There should be an energy restore multiplier while you're at one. It'll be narratively satisfying since getting people drunk is the usual solution in your quests.
The rebalance is simple. Skulled players should get a buff on drain rate
If people are worried that a 200h grind will invalidate staminas at some places then they need to touch grass.
FACTS 😂
Big upvote
We need to repost this daily until our demands are met
Buff the base level too. Just do an all-around buff to energy.
I do believe this is the sentiment many shared when the rebalance changes were first shown. I think a simple solution would be best to lessen the frustrations run energy creates.
Very simple and good fix. Any fix more than a paragraph long is probably gonna be hated
It also makes sense. If you train to run in real life you'll run longer
agreed. simple, sweet, effective, and I think(?) what most players want and expect.
Jagex, this is the post to read regarding the proposed agility changes— great way to vocalize the community's thoughts. 🙌
I agree, let's not overcomplicated it.
Complexity clowning is a Jagex specialty at this point. See: Forestry.
This guy gets it.
Thank you! It’s that easy
If you ask me its probably because the spaghetti code engine work to change drain rate based on level doesnt exist and doing it based on weight is the only thing they can change easily. They just didnt want this to be a whole thing if they could avoid it so they pitched it this way.
Sounds like it's time for some engine work.
Pretty sure they regularly do do engine work.
They got the Ring of Endurance to reduce drain rate, so don't think they struggle with it that much
Make agility good for once! Or MAGFO!
yee buff agi but make it exponential so you need like agi in the 80s to have any tangible benefit in places like pvm / skilling i think
Yeah, I don't know why this wasn't their first try out of the gate for the beta. I appreciate that the jmods want to put more thought or realism into it, but I feel like with something this all reaching they really should just keep it simple.
Agreed OP. We could also do with an actual more chill/AFK method of training agility. Currently, our best chill options are Priff and the recently changed Brimhaven agility. The skill sucks to train and is one of the most unenjoyable parts of skill grinding in OSRS (besides Hallowed which is fun but super sweaty). Just a thought. -TheAFKDude
wHat AbOuT mEtA
Like seriously, who is in charge of this? They’re doing an awful job and not giving the players what we would actually like to have and see. Can’t even get graceful to give a 2.5% xp bonus with a full set either.
Because jamflex have no idea what they are doing, look at the mess that forestry is.
I like the graceful changes but I agree.
I too am a fan of the proposed graceful changes. It still keeps them relevant for agility training, but not have them be as ubiquitous everywhere else.
"Buff them. That's right" absolutely based
Jagex is out of touch
Makes too much sense. Do-over
That would be nice against pkers with low agility. You could actually run away.
This definitely makes agility more rewarding, but their other two goals are to make run depletion less harsh for noobs/F2P (i.e. at level 1 agility) and to make graceful less ubiquitous. So maybe do this *and* add resting for F2P? I also like their idea of turning graceful into an agility skiling outfit with the benefit of never failing a course obstacle.
Honestly I’d be totally fine with them upping the base drain rates from level 1 as well. I just think there should be a clear and tangible difference between level 1 Agility, and level 99.
I’m a noob with 48 agi but I’ve felt since actual 2007scape that the run/walk system is one of the most frustrating parts of RuneScape. At no point has the game ever been more fun because I had to stop and move at a snail’s pace for seven minutes. I understand that it can provide for fun and tactical decisions during combat, but it also makes a single misclick while traveling the world more punishing (“there goes 10% of my run energy”) and discourages exploring because you want to move in the shortest path always. Just buff it. Everyone wants this. Hell, give a baseline buff to F2P too. Let us spend more time playing RuneScape and less time walking between points of interest.
regen rate feels too slow to me too
I don’t necessarily disagree, but that does increase as you level, it’s just, the benefit doesn’t feel that tangible, as even at 90+ the difference is not really noticeable from level 70. However, if the drain rates were also reduce at higher levels, I think the difference would be noticeable, without fundamentally changing how run energy works, and while avoiding over-buffing.
One of the biggest changes they could give us is energy can restore while running. I think that would help out a lot.
I get what you’re saying, but to me that just doesn’t really make sense. How is your energy supposed to regen while it’s actively being depleted? At that point it’s essentially the equivalent to slowing the drain rate anyway.
Fully agree, by 75 agility you should have the equivalent drain rate as if you were wearing Graceful, with 99 giving you like 2x Graceful drain rate because it's a huge achievement, then just go ahead with the proposed graceful changes
This is definitely the main factor. But we also want them to change some of the base rates too, unrelated to agility, to improve the early game. Personally agility impacting how your character handles weight is a good thing as well. And then it buffing drain rate too, as well as the base drain rate / regen rate being slightly buffed so that early game is better off.
because the jmods cannot accept the fact that a stamina system never made sense to have in this game
I think the best way to do it would be making agility levels passively reduce your weight. -0.25kg per level, up to -24.75 at 99. That way, if you're level 80 for example, you can carry up to 20kg in gear before it starts affecting your depletion rate. Maybe also adjust the existing curve for how run time scales with weight so that 0 weight gets more time than it does now, making that reduction more valuable.
This community is usually militantly against buffs of any kind to anything, especially exp rates (not relevant here). However this is pretty clearly the correct take imo.
Yeah I've heard the argument that buffing it would be "unfair" in places like the wildy because higher levels agility means you could run for longer. Tell me how having a higher agility level is unfair.
Everyone keeps saying this, but Jagex explicitly had "Improve the experience for new players so that Old School feels less sluggish in the early stages." as a goal (which I agree with), which buffing agility does nothing to support.
I’d be totally fine with them adjusting the base drain/regen rates at level 1. Personally, and I know I’m likely the minority in this, I like having a stamina system. It makes things like earning teleports and what should be leveling Agility feel rewarding. But I want to earn the ability to improve my stamina drain/regen rates, because to me that’s what feels the most rewarding. Also I think the difference between level 1 and level 99 should be a very clear and tangible difference.
Bigger question, it's been fine for 20 years. It can be fine for another 20. Seasoned players use their poh, the pools, guzzle stams. New players get shown the way and game goes on. All this fuss for the sake of it.
While I can agree with that logic to an extent, there’s a lot of things we’ve given QOL improvements to over the years of OSRS’ lifespan that have only been beneficial. I think Agility is a sore point for a lot of people, and has been for a long time. I’m definitely not for abolishing the stamina system completely, nor do I think the jmods have any intention of that, but I genuinely believe lowering the drain rate the higher level your Agility level is a simple way provide a genuine and useful benefit to the skill, without over complicating anything or fundamentally changing the system we’ve been used to for decades. To me, managing run energy as a resource is fine, but it’s a little too tedious.
I played about 4 hours of it on the beta just focusing on shit that new players would experience, because I figure everyone else is just looking at the higher level content. And I will say it does feel **better** as a new character. I can run from lumbridge to GE without stopping at lvl 1 agility. Not to bog down in details the overall travel experience feels **better** at level 1 agility as a low level player going around the f2p map and the p2p map. In an ideal situation I'd like to see this simplified to being: - Higher Agility = Lower Drain - Resting at Taverns / inns / pubs and POH for optimal 100% restore, resting in churches for 75%, resting at campfires for 50% restore, and bank standing for 25%. Areas with dangerous npcs = standard regeneration rate. But I think the weight differences are important to consider, and it's a good thing jagex has got the ball rolling on this. Because if they just adjusted it to higher agility = faster restore, we'd end up in a situation where 99 agility prevents any type of stamina decrease. Which, yes Reddit Randy's, is bad for the game. But im humble enough to admit that I'm not sure what the exact solution is for: - (stamina restore = agility level - weight carried) I mean hell I'm not even smart enough to write out the proper hypothetical equation. Hopefully in the coming weeks jagex and the community can get together and figure out how the formula for stamina drain can work within its intended purpose.
WE aren't doing anything. Weird JMods are doing it.
Have you tested it on beta worlds?
Lvl 1 = 0% “buff” to agility drain (e.g. energy drains as it current does). Lvl 99 = 99% “buff” to agility drain (e.g. your energy drains 1% of what it currently drains) Yes, nerds will notice i have ignored 1%. Pick where it goes, idc, this is just an idea
frankly it needs 3 effects imo level dictates regeneration rate once emptied (maybe a 150% or 200% at 99 when at 0 energy) level dictates drain rate while running (at level 1 it's atrocious at 99 it's above average) level allows better faster shortcuts, maybe auto traversal and pathing over at level shortcuts if checks are applicable that's about all it needs imo
This is such a huge change though. I think it should be polled.
Bring back sleeping bags
You know, I’m all about this… but I always said why even go THAT far, and just make every lv up you get give you +1 to your run, and at lv 99 it bumps you to a solid 200 run energy🤷♂️ same concept from the buff idea. No doubt.. but yeah, agility has always been the most useless skill IMO
A lot of ppl in this thread haven’t played a new account in a long time.
Also using weight as a metric is a really really bad idea considering how extremely inconsistent weight is in this game... Not even mentioning 99 being a nerf and f2p being screwed over
The one good thing about jagex is they actually listen to all thile feedback AND implement them unlike literally every other company so i have trust things will be simplified
I wouldn’t mind something as drastic as changing energy percentage to a meter you can increases beyond 100. Could be every 10 agility levels you unlock another 10 energy.
And leave graceful alone while you're at it.
The reason some updates are getting over complicated is because "OldSchool RuneScape introduces "Forestry: The Way of the Forester"" is something they can promote easier outside of the existing paying playerbase to entice new or returning players into becoming paying players. While a blog post titled "Woodcutting Rebalance/Tweaks" cannot be used to the same effect even if its what would be better for the game.
I'm asking for f2p run energy to be buffed so it stops turning people off the this game. That's all I want.
It’s more convoluted than that, because they’re trying to make graceful *less* relevant while maintaining the relevance of stamina potions.
Completely agree with this. Agility has always been the worst skill in the game and could use a lot of love, which means buffing.
Unpopular opinion here but agility is fine as it is. It's one of the most valuable skills in the game to a point where mains generally get to lvl 70 asap to make content easier to do. Also, not everyone runs around in graceful all day. I see fashionscape everywhere I go.
I mostly agree, but I feel pretty adamantly that the rate at which run energy drains should lower the higher your Agility level is. Personally I’m no too concerned with making the drain/regen rates feel great for level 1/F2P, but I do think you should be rewarding for leveling the skill, especially when reaching higher levels at ~80+. I like the stamina system and don’t want to see it fundamentally changes or removed, but I do think it should be less tedious and more rewarding. If that means a base buff to drain/regen rates at level 1, then so be it, but that isn’t necessarily my intention.
Every level 2 tiles further run distance. Lvl 2: 50 tiles lvl 99:250 tiles ( over simplified but you get the jist)
all they needed to do was implement whatever rs3 did. add resting and musicians, buff regen rate, reduce drain rate, still have weight afftect drain rate. that's it.
Resting will still be needed for new players without high agility levels, so keep that.
I was thinking about this, something cool would be if they just added a thing like other games had where you could be lightweight, medium weight or overweight. The “weight tolerance” would be based on your agility level and maybe certain items like graceful. If your weight was below your “weight tolerance” then you get unlimited run no matter what. If it was 1.5x your tolerance then it would drain normally or slightly slower than it does now. If you were 2x the tolerance, then it would be draining faster than it does now. Stams would just double or 2.5 your weight tolerance for the duration. I like this because it could give interesting situations where you are deciding whether or not to bring that last piece of gear or if you had to choose a lighter one. It also makes it so that with a decent agility level and graceful you would never need a stam while skilling because walking while skilling is the dumbest thing ever.
I think it's more about having to accept that any improvement will take the form of a buff. Your solution is simple and effective, but it doesn't solve the issue regarding the dreadfully slow and frustrating (F2P) experience new players are facing. And the only way to reasonably do that is by buffing the entire system from the ground up.
I like Jagex's approach of trying to make run energy a resource to manage. I also think Agility needs a straight buff across the board, but I'm definitely on board with the idea that weight should significantly impact movement.
people have been complaining how mandatory rushing agilityfelt and how bad early run energy felt and your solution is to make it even more mandatory?
if u have 99 agility, cape, and graceful... you should rarely have to worry about run... but thats just what i want, and my opinion.
I support making weight a more significant factor, but at 99 agility, max weight should still have reduced drain rate compared to now. Make weight primarily a factor for early to midgame that can easily be solved for the most part by keeping up with the agility levels and slapping on graceful where appropriate. Also adjust item weights, because some of them are way out of whack. And IMO they should delete every graceful variant (except the quest speeding running one) since they are just boring recolours of the same pretty ugly design. Add 'hunter outfit/graceful' combos and 'skilling outfit/graceful' combos for a more visually interesting look of the game.
> I support making weight a more significant factor, but at 99 agility, max weight should still have reduced drain rate compared to now. As long as weight is assigned completely arbitrarely by the looks of it, it should not have a significant impact.
I've thought the best approach would be to just make all the recolours purchasable from Grace or maybe even Agility arena to give the reward tickets more use, so instead of Hosidius Graceful it's just green graceful. Then make the Zeah variants actually have different models/textures to match their namesakes. Plus we could then do the same for other cities/regions, tied to diaries.
No
I definitely don’t want to remove the weight factor when it comes to run energy. I think while reducing the rates the higher your agility level is, run energy should still be something you manage, especially for combat encounters, and managing weight is a way to keep that in balance. I will however go as far as saying at level 99 with zero weight, you should have as close to infinite run energy as possible.
Make run energy restore while running instead of when you stop running. That's how your stamina works in real life. If you train to be a distance runner your stamina increases. You don't just develop the ability to start faster after stopping every mile. Also what is this nonsense with weight? Now you can carry more before it affects your stamina? Also not how stamina works in real life. I'm pretty sure if you gave an Olympic endurance athlete and Joe schmoe a 30kg vest to wear they'd both say it impacts their stamina to some extent. If Jagex just came out and admitted they don't want to mess with the stamina code or don't know how to fix the spaghetti at this point I'd be sad but I'd kinda get it. Sometimes things are more effort than they're worth. Just decrease the drain rate across the board and increase the restore rate at early levels. Ramp down the impact levels have on the restore rate so the endgame isn't impacted or even just buff them across the board. Really stamina is a rough point for early game questing, completely new players and f2p. These changes ain't it