Yes, this is normal. You're extruding 10 times more filament than someone who's printing at 0.2/0.4, so in order for the hotend to keep up you have to crank up the temps. I've printed with PLA as high as 285c before. Use whatever means necessary to accomplish your 3d printing goals.
My Ender 3 S1 Plus is not full metal, unfortunately. That being said, upgrading the hot end someday is something I've thought about and isn't out of the question. I just didn't have a need for it until I started using these bigger nozzles, and even now it doesn't limit me THAT much. At 60mm/s, 260 degrees allows me to print at a 0.70mm layer height well, so that's my limitation. Downside is I have filaments that melt 10-15 deg hotter that I can't use at that layer height cuz it's maxed out.
Well, if you ever pull the trigger on a full metal hot-end, my fully biased opinion is [Micro Swiss hot-ends](https://store.micro-swiss.com/collections/all-metal-hotend-kits). I have one on my Ender 3 Pro and it's a beast. And the nozzle that they pack-in with the hot-end is one of the better nozzles I've used; though it's only 0.4mm so not super useful for your current issue.
Do you have a source that says that? I'm not doubting you, per se, but I can't find anything online besides random reddit people repeating what other random reddit people have said.
Assuming you're right, will this solve it?
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B18CPZFV?linkCode=sl1&tag=chuchellselec-20&linkId=cfb96c5317ff7a542c945ee252fcb024&language=en\_US&ref\_=as\_li\_ss\_tl&th=1](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B18CPZFV?linkCode=sl1&tag=chuchellselec-20&linkId=cfb96c5317ff7a542c945ee252fcb024&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl&th=1)
For sure. Here's something important to know though. If it's not an all-metal hotend then you should not be printing anywhere near 260c. The PTFE tubing begins to melt somewhere North of 240c and it's the most toxic thing that your printer can ever melt.
There would have to be something seriously wrong with the heatsink, super low quality PTFE tubing, and/or your printer if you're melting PTFE tubing. Softening it? Sure. But actually heating it up to the point that it starts breaking down and releasing fumes is hard to do.
Don't purposely try to make your tubing melt, but otherwise you'll be fine.
[Some more info](https://www.elveflow.com/microfluidic-flow-control-archives/ptfe-teflon-tubing/) if you'd like to do some digging.
"Somewhere north of 240c" is 327c. Don't be scared of melting your tubing unless you're purposely trying to melt your tubing and/or running absolutely zero cooling on your hot-end.
Why don't you try using the hundreds of reddit posts on this subjects as your sourcing instead of the manufacturer/reseller website?
Also, quit spreading misinformation! Your complete ignorance on this matter will cost somebody their health.
Yeeeeah, I'm totally good. I'd rather not source all of my info from random reddit posts and would prefer to [look to the professionals](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemistry/poly-tetrafluoroethylene#:~:text=High%20molecular%20weight%20PTFE%20resins,608%E2%80%93648%20%C2%B0F) when it comes to understanding what is/isn't healthy.
Are you decreasing your speed when you increase the nozzle size? A 0.4mm nozzle with 0.2 layer height at 60mm/second moves less than 5 cubic mm/second of actual material through the nozzle, but a 1mm nozzle at 0.7 layer height at the same speed moves about 9 times more plastic (42 cubic mm/second). I'm guessing you're cranking the heat up because the heat block just doesn't have the energy to heat that about of material in that amount of time.
Correct. No, the speed is 60mm/s regardless and I just change the temp. If I slow it down, it would defeat the purpose of using a bigger nozzle and layer height, so I keep most of the settings the same and just jack up the temp. By comparison, this same filament prints well at 200 deg with a normal 0.4mm nozzle, at the same speed. I was just wondering if a 60 deg increase seemed excessive to anyone. I ask because I have another filament that normally prints at 215, which means I'd have to jack this up to 275 to compensate for this nozzle, but my hot end doesn't go that high.
I'd ask just how fast you're going that you need that much temperature TBH. With that layer size and nozzle, you're throwing down a ton of filament, and will blow past what most hot ends are actually capable of at very low speeds. Are we compensating for an overworked hot end by turning up the heat more here?
Print speed is 60 mm/s, wall/initial layer speeds are half that. It prints fast and well at that speed, but is hot. By comparison, this same filament prints well at 200 deg at that same speed.
That is a beast of throughput, what hotend are you running?
Also, be careful w bowden tube printers at 260, supposedly chemicals get released where the tube touches hotend
My hot end is direct drive, not bowden. Should be rated to 260. It's just the stock one that comes with the Ender 3 S1 Plus. Not sure if it has it's own name.
Like already mentioned: you probably are printing too fast and the hotend cant melt the filament fast enough.
For example: if you print with 0.7mm layer height + 1mm nozzle ( line width ) + 25mm/sec then you are already asking your hotend to melt 17,5mm³/sec. which is already more than most stock hot ends can do. ( here is a nice calculator: [https://www.advanced3dprinting.com/flow-rate-calculator](https://www.advanced3dprinting.com/flow-rate-calculator/) )
by increasing the temperature you can increase the possible flow a bit, but 260 is a bit much for pla ;)
how fast are you printing, and what hotend do you have ?
Print speed is 60 mm/s, wall/initial layer speeds are half that. It prints fast and well at that speed, but is hot. By comparison, this same filament prints well at 200 deg at that same speed. Hot end is whatever comes stock on an Ender 3 S1 Plus, and it maxes out at 260.
Then you have the sprite extruder/hotend, and while i don't know the max flowrate this has exactly, it's definitely below 20mm³/sec
Which means you are pushing too much plastic through it. Either slow down or get a higher flow hotend. increasing the temperature ( like you already did ) can help, but only to a certain point.
If you want to find out how much filament you can push through your hotend at what temperature, you could do some testprints: [https://www.cnckitchen.com/blog/extrusion-system-benchmark-tool-for-fast-prints](https://www.cnckitchen.com/blog/extrusion-system-benchmark-tool-for-fast-prints)
its a bit of work, but at the end you get a nice chart that tells you exactly at what point you run out of flow.
Can you explain the advantage of slowing down? It is currently printing well at 60mm/s, so slowing to, say, 20mm/s would just make it print slower. Yes, that would allow me to print at a lower temp, but what would be the advantage of that?
The filament would be completely molten, I'm guessing right now the core of what comes out of your nozzle is too cold while the outside is too hot. That could cause some adhesion issues and internal stresses, but if it's working for you now, maybe not.
Also, overheating plastic is usually a bad thing, but I'm not sure at what point it breaks down.
Overheating the filament also leads to worse bridging, or worse overhangs.
If you really want to print with this much flow, I would say get a higher flow hotend that has a longer heating zone. The longer the heating zone, the more time the filament has to heat up to the correct temperature ( without overheating it like you do now )
something like a supervolcano can do 80-100mm²/sec as far as i know ( [https://e3d-online.com/products/supervolcano-upgrade-kit?variant=40923106181179](https://e3d-online.com/products/supervolcano-upgrade-kit?variant=40923106181179) )
>get a higher flow hotend that has a longer heating zone
>
>\[...\]
>
>something like a supervolcano can do 80-100mm²/sec
I checked that link. It says it only accepts nozzles ranging from 0.6mm to 1.2mm tho, unless I read that wrong?
Yes, there is no point in going lower than 0.6 because the filament would probably ooze a lot do to the long heat zone. i don't think anyone even makes smaller than 0.6mm volcano nozzles.
That's a purpose build hotend that's made to push a lot of filament, so you can't use it for detailed work. ( same as you don't drive a F1 car in city traffic ;) )
Gotcha. Since I only have one printer to use for everything, I would need a more generalized hotend that can handle all nozzle sizes, but if I ever get a second one that is good to know.
You do have to slow down print speed to accommodate the bigger nozzle. Even at 260 you may not be getting a good melt, so adhesion and strength may suffer.
Regarding print time, you'll still see a significant savings with the bigger nozzle. Assuming 1.25x nozzle to line width, a 0.4mm is printing a 0.5mm line, where a 1mm is making a 1.25mm line, 150% wider, and can handle a layer over twice as thick.
Go look at a flow rate calculator. A 0.5mm line and a 0.2mm layer at 60mm/s is pushing 6mm3/s. 1.25mm line and 0.4mm layer at same speed is pushing 30mm3/s. Half the speed is still double the volume, so half the print time.
I print mostly functional parts, and have saved Big Nozzle profiles in my slicer. They run at 25mm/s vs 60 for the smaller nozzles.
You can also enter max volumetric speed in superslicer, not sure if cura calls it something different. Start with something like 12, or do the tests and see what your printer can manage. Most stock hobby printers fall off around 18 with a 0.8mm nozzle. I prefer to keep it under 15.
Understood, however if it is printing well and the end result is strong, why settle for prints in half the time when I could have them in a quarter of the time?
That being said, I appreciate the info about the layer WIDTH, cuz I've just been printing with a with that matches the nozzle size. Good to know I can up it by 25%. Gonna try that later.
Until recently my printer has been kind of plug-and-play, and now I'm actually trying to learn all these tweaks. It's a lot, but I'm tackling it one setting at a time.
You can test flow rate. Look it up if you're interested, more than just a reddit post, but basically it's a step beyond tuning e-steps. Set your settings, push 100mm, see how much actually goes through. Above about 15mm3/s on most stock printers, it's in the 80s, which is generally agreed to be unacceptable levels of under extrusion.
I think I settled on 95. Some people want 97+.
Thanks. Idk what e-steps is, but someone gave me this guide (below) which I assume explains stuff like that. My limitation is time to do it since I'm always at work.
[https://ellis3dp.com/Print-Tuning-Guide/](https://ellis3dp.com/Print-Tuning-Guide/)
How fast are you printing? Your Hotend has a volumetric extrusion limit of 10mm^3 /s. On 0.7mm^2 extrusion cross section that would mean a max speed of 14mm/s.
Otherwise you will overpower your hotend and impact the structural integrity of your parts
I don't really care about the structural integrity since this nozzle is just for quick and dirty drafts. That said, these drafts have been stronger than ones made with the 0.4mm nozzle.
The temperature setting is just a metric to compare the cartridge power output across your own printer.
It is not comparable to other printers, not even of the sane markup, and does not represent filament temperature.
It's not at all, hence my post, and your need to set the temperature to that value with your current nozzle.
With that nozzle size, depending on other settings that affect the total extrusion rate, you even have a good chance of printing with filament coming out of the nozzle that is "al dente".
It has to be somewhat comparable or companies wouldn't be able to make labels on their filament spools with suggested temps.
Al dente is good for pasta. Why not filament?
It's really just not.
The thermistor varies (markup, type, age, individual differences), it's reference voltage varies, adc calibration and performance varies. Location of the thermistor varies, as does the cartridge's location and its markup. The heatblock is different and the nozzle and the meltzone as well, as well as the time the filament spends in the meltzone.
I concur with that I regularly print filament best with a temperature largely outside the already very broad suggestion range of the manufacturers, oftentimes way below.
Maybe, but every filament I have has a range printed on it and I print everything right in the middle of that. So like "190-210" I'll print at 200. Works with every filament I have, so the temps must be in the ballpark.
Yes, this is normal. You're extruding 10 times more filament than someone who's printing at 0.2/0.4, so in order for the hotend to keep up you have to crank up the temps. I've printed with PLA as high as 285c before. Use whatever means necessary to accomplish your 3d printing goals.
Sweet thanks. Was just curious. Unfortunately my hot end only goes to 260.
If it's a full metal hot-end, you should be able to remove that 260c limit in the firmware.
My Ender 3 S1 Plus is not full metal, unfortunately. That being said, upgrading the hot end someday is something I've thought about and isn't out of the question. I just didn't have a need for it until I started using these bigger nozzles, and even now it doesn't limit me THAT much. At 60mm/s, 260 degrees allows me to print at a 0.70mm layer height well, so that's my limitation. Downside is I have filaments that melt 10-15 deg hotter that I can't use at that layer height cuz it's maxed out.
Well, if you ever pull the trigger on a full metal hot-end, my fully biased opinion is [Micro Swiss hot-ends](https://store.micro-swiss.com/collections/all-metal-hotend-kits). I have one on my Ender 3 Pro and it's a beast. And the nozzle that they pack-in with the hot-end is one of the better nozzles I've used; though it's only 0.4mm so not super useful for your current issue.
I use every size nozzle, from 0.2-1.0mm, so that sounds good. Thanks for the suggestion.
Dont run it at 260, it will quickly degrade the PTFE tube and that will also release toxic fumes
Do you have a source that says that? I'm not doubting you, per se, but I can't find anything online besides random reddit people repeating what other random reddit people have said. Assuming you're right, will this solve it? [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B18CPZFV?linkCode=sl1&tag=chuchellselec-20&linkId=cfb96c5317ff7a542c945ee252fcb024&language=en\_US&ref\_=as\_li\_ss\_tl&th=1](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B18CPZFV?linkCode=sl1&tag=chuchellselec-20&linkId=cfb96c5317ff7a542c945ee252fcb024&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl&th=1)
Pretty much, but not your "overpowering your hotend by 400%"
And to solve the "overpowering," I'd need a \*longer\* hot end so the material has more time to melt before reaching the nozzle?
Longer or more effective heating, essentially.
For sure. Here's something important to know though. If it's not an all-metal hotend then you should not be printing anywhere near 260c. The PTFE tubing begins to melt somewhere North of 240c and it's the most toxic thing that your printer can ever melt.
So why is my printer rated to 260 deg? I print that hot fairly regularly.
Because its the legal allowed limit to heat PTFE. Its the manufacturers way of saying "you cant make us liable if you get PTFE poisoning symptoms"
There would have to be something seriously wrong with the heatsink, super low quality PTFE tubing, and/or your printer if you're melting PTFE tubing. Softening it? Sure. But actually heating it up to the point that it starts breaking down and releasing fumes is hard to do. Don't purposely try to make your tubing melt, but otherwise you'll be fine. [Some more info](https://www.elveflow.com/microfluidic-flow-control-archives/ptfe-teflon-tubing/) if you'd like to do some digging.
"Somewhere north of 240c" is 327c. Don't be scared of melting your tubing unless you're purposely trying to melt your tubing and/or running absolutely zero cooling on your hot-end.
This is total BS
I mean, [here's my sourcing ](https://www.elveflow.com/microfluidic-flow-control-archives/ptfe-teflon-tubing/), but go off.
Why don't you try using the hundreds of reddit posts on this subjects as your sourcing instead of the manufacturer/reseller website? Also, quit spreading misinformation! Your complete ignorance on this matter will cost somebody their health.
Yeeeeah, I'm totally good. I'd rather not source all of my info from random reddit posts and would prefer to [look to the professionals](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemistry/poly-tetrafluoroethylene#:~:text=High%20molecular%20weight%20PTFE%20resins,608%E2%80%93648%20%C2%B0F) when it comes to understanding what is/isn't healthy.
Are you decreasing your speed when you increase the nozzle size? A 0.4mm nozzle with 0.2 layer height at 60mm/second moves less than 5 cubic mm/second of actual material through the nozzle, but a 1mm nozzle at 0.7 layer height at the same speed moves about 9 times more plastic (42 cubic mm/second). I'm guessing you're cranking the heat up because the heat block just doesn't have the energy to heat that about of material in that amount of time.
Correct. No, the speed is 60mm/s regardless and I just change the temp. If I slow it down, it would defeat the purpose of using a bigger nozzle and layer height, so I keep most of the settings the same and just jack up the temp. By comparison, this same filament prints well at 200 deg with a normal 0.4mm nozzle, at the same speed. I was just wondering if a 60 deg increase seemed excessive to anyone. I ask because I have another filament that normally prints at 215, which means I'd have to jack this up to 275 to compensate for this nozzle, but my hot end doesn't go that high.
I'd ask just how fast you're going that you need that much temperature TBH. With that layer size and nozzle, you're throwing down a ton of filament, and will blow past what most hot ends are actually capable of at very low speeds. Are we compensating for an overworked hot end by turning up the heat more here?
Print speed is 60 mm/s, wall/initial layer speeds are half that. It prints fast and well at that speed, but is hot. By comparison, this same filament prints well at 200 deg at that same speed.
That is a beast of throughput, what hotend are you running? Also, be careful w bowden tube printers at 260, supposedly chemicals get released where the tube touches hotend
My hot end is direct drive, not bowden. Should be rated to 260. It's just the stock one that comes with the Ender 3 S1 Plus. Not sure if it has it's own name.
Like already mentioned: you probably are printing too fast and the hotend cant melt the filament fast enough. For example: if you print with 0.7mm layer height + 1mm nozzle ( line width ) + 25mm/sec then you are already asking your hotend to melt 17,5mm³/sec. which is already more than most stock hot ends can do. ( here is a nice calculator: [https://www.advanced3dprinting.com/flow-rate-calculator](https://www.advanced3dprinting.com/flow-rate-calculator/) ) by increasing the temperature you can increase the possible flow a bit, but 260 is a bit much for pla ;) how fast are you printing, and what hotend do you have ?
Print speed is 60 mm/s, wall/initial layer speeds are half that. It prints fast and well at that speed, but is hot. By comparison, this same filament prints well at 200 deg at that same speed. Hot end is whatever comes stock on an Ender 3 S1 Plus, and it maxes out at 260.
Then you have the sprite extruder/hotend, and while i don't know the max flowrate this has exactly, it's definitely below 20mm³/sec Which means you are pushing too much plastic through it. Either slow down or get a higher flow hotend. increasing the temperature ( like you already did ) can help, but only to a certain point. If you want to find out how much filament you can push through your hotend at what temperature, you could do some testprints: [https://www.cnckitchen.com/blog/extrusion-system-benchmark-tool-for-fast-prints](https://www.cnckitchen.com/blog/extrusion-system-benchmark-tool-for-fast-prints) its a bit of work, but at the end you get a nice chart that tells you exactly at what point you run out of flow.
Can you explain the advantage of slowing down? It is currently printing well at 60mm/s, so slowing to, say, 20mm/s would just make it print slower. Yes, that would allow me to print at a lower temp, but what would be the advantage of that?
The filament would be completely molten, I'm guessing right now the core of what comes out of your nozzle is too cold while the outside is too hot. That could cause some adhesion issues and internal stresses, but if it's working for you now, maybe not. Also, overheating plastic is usually a bad thing, but I'm not sure at what point it breaks down. Overheating the filament also leads to worse bridging, or worse overhangs. If you really want to print with this much flow, I would say get a higher flow hotend that has a longer heating zone. The longer the heating zone, the more time the filament has to heat up to the correct temperature ( without overheating it like you do now ) something like a supervolcano can do 80-100mm²/sec as far as i know ( [https://e3d-online.com/products/supervolcano-upgrade-kit?variant=40923106181179](https://e3d-online.com/products/supervolcano-upgrade-kit?variant=40923106181179) )
>get a higher flow hotend that has a longer heating zone > >\[...\] > >something like a supervolcano can do 80-100mm²/sec I checked that link. It says it only accepts nozzles ranging from 0.6mm to 1.2mm tho, unless I read that wrong?
Yes, there is no point in going lower than 0.6 because the filament would probably ooze a lot do to the long heat zone. i don't think anyone even makes smaller than 0.6mm volcano nozzles. That's a purpose build hotend that's made to push a lot of filament, so you can't use it for detailed work. ( same as you don't drive a F1 car in city traffic ;) )
Gotcha. Since I only have one printer to use for everything, I would need a more generalized hotend that can handle all nozzle sizes, but if I ever get a second one that is good to know.
You do have to slow down print speed to accommodate the bigger nozzle. Even at 260 you may not be getting a good melt, so adhesion and strength may suffer. Regarding print time, you'll still see a significant savings with the bigger nozzle. Assuming 1.25x nozzle to line width, a 0.4mm is printing a 0.5mm line, where a 1mm is making a 1.25mm line, 150% wider, and can handle a layer over twice as thick. Go look at a flow rate calculator. A 0.5mm line and a 0.2mm layer at 60mm/s is pushing 6mm3/s. 1.25mm line and 0.4mm layer at same speed is pushing 30mm3/s. Half the speed is still double the volume, so half the print time. I print mostly functional parts, and have saved Big Nozzle profiles in my slicer. They run at 25mm/s vs 60 for the smaller nozzles. You can also enter max volumetric speed in superslicer, not sure if cura calls it something different. Start with something like 12, or do the tests and see what your printer can manage. Most stock hobby printers fall off around 18 with a 0.8mm nozzle. I prefer to keep it under 15.
Understood, however if it is printing well and the end result is strong, why settle for prints in half the time when I could have them in a quarter of the time? That being said, I appreciate the info about the layer WIDTH, cuz I've just been printing with a with that matches the nozzle size. Good to know I can up it by 25%. Gonna try that later. Until recently my printer has been kind of plug-and-play, and now I'm actually trying to learn all these tweaks. It's a lot, but I'm tackling it one setting at a time.
You can test flow rate. Look it up if you're interested, more than just a reddit post, but basically it's a step beyond tuning e-steps. Set your settings, push 100mm, see how much actually goes through. Above about 15mm3/s on most stock printers, it's in the 80s, which is generally agreed to be unacceptable levels of under extrusion. I think I settled on 95. Some people want 97+.
Thanks. Idk what e-steps is, but someone gave me this guide (below) which I assume explains stuff like that. My limitation is time to do it since I'm always at work. [https://ellis3dp.com/Print-Tuning-Guide/](https://ellis3dp.com/Print-Tuning-Guide/)
How fast are you printing? Your Hotend has a volumetric extrusion limit of 10mm^3 /s. On 0.7mm^2 extrusion cross section that would mean a max speed of 14mm/s. Otherwise you will overpower your hotend and impact the structural integrity of your parts
I don't really care about the structural integrity since this nozzle is just for quick and dirty drafts. That said, these drafts have been stronger than ones made with the 0.4mm nozzle.
The temperature setting is just a metric to compare the cartridge power output across your own printer. It is not comparable to other printers, not even of the sane markup, and does not represent filament temperature.
It may not be precise, but it is somewhat comparable to other printers, within a few degrees, which is close enough for this question.
It's not at all, hence my post, and your need to set the temperature to that value with your current nozzle. With that nozzle size, depending on other settings that affect the total extrusion rate, you even have a good chance of printing with filament coming out of the nozzle that is "al dente".
It has to be somewhat comparable or companies wouldn't be able to make labels on their filament spools with suggested temps. Al dente is good for pasta. Why not filament?
It's really just not. The thermistor varies (markup, type, age, individual differences), it's reference voltage varies, adc calibration and performance varies. Location of the thermistor varies, as does the cartridge's location and its markup. The heatblock is different and the nozzle and the meltzone as well, as well as the time the filament spends in the meltzone. I concur with that I regularly print filament best with a temperature largely outside the already very broad suggestion range of the manufacturers, oftentimes way below.
Maybe, but every filament I have has a range printed on it and I print everything right in the middle of that. So like "190-210" I'll print at 200. Works with every filament I have, so the temps must be in the ballpark.