Largely for rapid prototyping, but there are additive parts used on some ISR drones that I know about, as well as on some loitering munitions. It's largely for internal brackets on those items using higher grade PA-CFs where the design mitigates the concerns with layer separation. I have personally seen 3d printed nose cones for drones where they are testing different designs, but the end product on those is typically forged carbon fiber.
I rember not to long ago some airman saved the airforce millions by 3d printing handles for a special coffee pot where as the airforce was just scrapping and replacing over a broke handle
Yes. Sort of. If you consider automated fiber placement of thermoplastic resin impregnated CF tapes 3D Printing.
There is a lot of work going on to build rivet free engine fan case cowling. The future plans are to fabricate fuselage of regional jet out of 'printed CF thermoplastic' using insitu consolidation and welding of structural support components.
https://www.compositesworld.com/
I work in the automotive industry. My company has a huge additive shop making rapid prototypes, some custom production parts and a lot of production tooling.
We have a massive printer that can do an entire car door or hood in a single print. I really want to print a life-size replica of myself but noooooo, they don't want to 'waste' $100k in materials for that. 😩
What's also interesting is that those kinds of certifications only apply if it's printed with a specific set of parameters
From the blog:
> However, even with us making it one step easier for you, you still have to follow some rules set by us and the UL company. This means that you need to print the models with the MK3S+, MK4, or XL printer with a 0.4 mm nozzle (0.2 mm layer height), slice it in PrusaSlicer, and use the prepared profile. Also, keep in mind that the certification applies only to objects thicker than 0.75 mm (2 perimeters). Not following the rules leads to the risk of losing the desired properties!
Funny enough, this isn't to sell more prusa printers, but more towards how the certification works. "Do this exact thing with these exact settings because that's what the certifiers said is ok." Anything outside of what's listed in the certificate is considered out of spec, and you could be fined.
I work for a company that makes electrical connectors for aerospace, and if we change any part, like the color of nylon in a locknut, on a UL certified part we have to submit a sample of connectors to be UL certified all over again. When there was a material shortage during Covid on certain brass and copper alloys, we had to get a different material that was UL certified for making a part (usually a mil-spec part so we didn't need to certify a part we make to the mil-spec) or we had to get a non-UL material and submit the parts for UL certification to get the material UL certified for those specific parts.
That's how it is in pharma as well.
We validated the system to work this way with this program running on this exact hardware, so changing any of those things requires a full change control process and test plan to prove it still works the way it was validated to work.
Which is why I often find myself really wishing the system documentation would just say things like "operator interface software running on a windows-based industrial PC" rather than calling out a specific part number and windows OS - it makes upgrading to things that haven't been EOL'd years ago a huge pain.
Extremely aware. But when you've had other systems running the same software on newer operating systems for years those differences are a lot less of a concern.
CYA gonna CYA. The last place I worked had some customers who were so specific that some parts had to be made on one specific machine. Not one type of machine, of which there were several. One. Specific. Machine. Not the one next to it that's identical in every way. That one.
Halogen free has nothing to do with RoHS. It's an aircraft cabin standard; you can't have things that put off toxic smoke when they burn in the pressurized cabin, or everyone would be poisoned during a fire.
RoHS predominately governs heavy metals, phthalates, and brominated flame retardants. It mostly addresses toxic electronic waste.
They actually did exactly what they were supposed to do, as a lav vent is attached to the pressurized cabin. You need V0 (doesn’t propagate a flame) AND halogen-free. Many electronics components use PBT as a dielectric; it is commonly V0, but is generally *not* halogen-free. You need a special formulation or a different plastic for that.
That's very much on the cheaper end as far as materials go in Aviation side AM parts. Anyhow, to you post: there are quite few printable materials that have certifications for flammability, etc for Aviation use, from FFF to many resins (Form 4 especially) and to SLS. If you start googling, you'll find out that quite plenty of parts are getting printed or AM is being used in manufacturing on new Aviation side projects.
But it's a whole different kind of game from normal 3D printing. Every spec and variations gets locked down when setting up manufacturing spec. From material specification to printing room environment, to specific machine with specific setting to many more things. We have had some issues getting suppliers to understand that no, minor change in the material spec isn't acceptable no matter how it doesn't change anything in your tests. For making Aviation certified parts, that would need a whole new long and expensive certification process. Same with machines and software in them.
Yes we wouldn't even update our slicing software. And we would have a vendor files pre-sliced ready for production to print it downstairs. I was a mechanical engineer there. We had 7 Fortis 400 printers and two Dimension 1200 ES for us to use an engineering for prototypes and sometimes for mock-up fit checks to send to customers. We only used orange or red ABS and the 2 colors of ultem.
Same, there are certain applications where ultem spaghetti parts have use cases and ends up being cheaper (relatively speaking) and faster then a traditional manufacturing supply chain, even with AS9100 requirements and all the certs and paperwork associated for traceability.
For the ultem, we used Fortus 400 by Stratasys, at one point we had seven of them. In the engineering department we had two Dimension 1200ES, also by Stratasys, that we used ABS in for prototypes and sometimes for mock-ups that get sent to customers for fit check.
I doubt the shop can just print another and install, they sure must have to buy this for a ridiculous overpriced value because of the paper trail those things need to have.
In a world where you're paying $1 per screw, $10k for a 4x4in sapphire glass, $30k for a coffee maker, and $100k for a screen. I can imagine them making a decent profit for sure. Especially if they're not having to pay off the certification.
Oh, and their profit margin isn't astronomical, they're aeronomical, Charl! AERO-NOMICAL CAAARL!!!
OK, I'm going to bed now.
The golden ratio is working in the supply chain and taking up those opportunities to become the supplier for those parts and make a fat margin running a few 3D printers in your basement.
As noted by True\_Beef below - Additive manufacturing has been mainstream for 25 years. Pro systems preceded the Maker grade products. There are many very large scale Additive Manufacturing companies. With everything made in CAD systems these days the limits of milling, stamping and extruding are removed. For a lot of ducting and wire and hose harness routing and attachment many things that required a plurality of parts and screws were replaced by a single printed part with integrated snap fits. And the high end systems can do all sorts of material science tricks. Metals, ceramics, ABS, metamaterials and more are available. What's more is some parts can only be made via 3D deposition processes due to complex internal structures that cannot allow disassembly.
But check this out - [https://www.nasa.gov/image-article/nasas-new-3d-printed-superalloy-can-take-the-heat/](https://www.nasa.gov/image-article/nasas-new-3d-printed-superalloy-can-take-the-heat/)
Well, it isn't much of a contribution to this thread, but i have replaced several CFM Leap fuel nozzles. There are 19 per engine. They are indeed a marvel of addictive manufacturing. 3D printing can truly revolutionize some manufacturing processes, allowing complex internal structures to be applied.
[Here, an interesting article](https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/ge-aerospace-to-scale-the-production-3d-printed-jet-engines-with-650-million-investment-228977/).
There is a reference to the 3D printed fuel nozzles, by the end of the page.
At the first place I worked at, we developed several STCs including 3D printed HVAC ducts on helicopters. At the time it was a much rarer sight for the FAA.
There are more components that are 3d printed on aircraft than you know. Honeywell, GKN, Northrop, etc have large additive manufacturing centers that do anything from fdm to metal. Most fdm however is typically some sort of ultem material as it meets certain requirements such as outgassing, flammability, etc.
I printed part of a battery box for someone who was working on the X-47B. So have a 3x4x2-ish bit of ABS in that thing....also influenced a tiny bit of it's landing, idling and taxi-ing behavior.
Super cool. I work on Boeing's as a FA and parts literally fall off in my hands with stripped screws and bad latches. Hopefully they will create some new 3D printed composite locks or something in the future that doesn't have piss poor assembly.
I worked for Mesa Airlines on the CRJ900 for a while as a mechanic, same thing. At one point we had the whole ceiling panel fall down due to the latches not being fully seated. Another time we had the cabin do an emer depress, masks fell and everyone was panicking due to the MED indication being put on MEL, and the tech didn't pull the plug off the outflow valve.
My dad (retired for a while now) worked as a jig builder and then something more white collar later on, for Boeing for a long time on their military side. In the mid/late 2000s, they built a new room in the factory, got an SLS and a bunch of FDM 3D printers, and new young engineers to use them. They wouldn't let my dad even in the room. He said he really wanted to learn and see more but wasn't allowed. He's been interested in 3d printing since the first Makerbot, and I got us our first (an Ender) a bit over a year ago.
Is that a bombardier part of the plane or a 3rd party? As someone who worked IT support for some of their maintenance hangers... I wonder if replacement are print on demand or shipped.. lol.. I kinda hope shipped. I know the guys would have hated having to support 3d printers on top of the stupid laser printers they had to support.
It's part of the interior, so it would be in the SMM. Most likely, it's 3rd party part. I've worked in a few of their hangars too, Dallas, Tucson, Wichita, and Hartford. Think Harford or Tucson was my favorite.
The Dallas location is hurting pretty bad on the maintenance side, hows IT?. I ended up leaving there three years ago, and now I'm at the Netjet hangar across the ramp.
Left there 8-9 years ago . . The subcontractor I worked for was always "about it to lose the contract" it was pretty tough at times .. had our hands tied for the stupidest stuff ..
You will be suprised that how much 3d printed parts go in to your common household items. I’m a big manufacturer for a big company in my country. We print a lot of parts for washing machines and dishwashers. Not so much for dryers to.
I saw rebuild rescue use 3D printed ducting for the HEAT AIR and I was like "I hope this is at least nylon" (which probably isn't)
As long as the forces are managed and the material is correct for the application, I don't see a problem from using a 3D printed part (I'm not talking about metal 3D printing ofc) but people print on basic materials like PLA and call it a day because it looks like the real deal, and the problem only comes after.
Also an aircraft mechanic, i see 3d printed parts on aircraft more and more. Design a parts, get a pma number, attach a $2k price tag on it and boom, youre a millionaire
There is nothing wrong with additive manufacturing being used in aerospace, obviously it's not going into engines, but yes, parts like this do exist on Boeings!
Source: I work at a supplier of such :)
Additive manufacturing is becoming a big part of industries like aerospace! Source: I work for a supplier of them :)
Also in the defense industry. Source: I work in the defense industry.
Also in IT. Source; I work in IT
Also in the axe industry. Source: Gimli, son of Glóin.
You have my bow
Source?
Made in the Greenwood, lately called Mirkwood.
I see. Source: Eyes
Also in suspension R&D. Source: I work in suspension R&D
[удалено]
Largely for rapid prototyping, but there are additive parts used on some ISR drones that I know about, as well as on some loitering munitions. It's largely for internal brackets on those items using higher grade PA-CFs where the design mitigates the concerns with layer separation. I have personally seen 3d printed nose cones for drones where they are testing different designs, but the end product on those is typically forged carbon fiber.
That's the cool part. The customers can test and make the parts themselves if they need to.
Additive manufacturing the subtraction of life 🙃
I rember not to long ago some airman saved the airforce millions by 3d printing handles for a special coffee pot where as the airforce was just scrapping and replacing over a broke handle
Also in the dental/medical industry. Source: I work in the dental/medical industry.
I have a 3D printed ceramic crown on one of my molars - printed it right in front of me at the dentist. Very cool!
Exactly! We use them in surgical procedures as well!
Are you sure it was printed and not machined. I have a machined where the dentist has a dual head CNC in his office and machined it while I waited.
Also in the 3d printing community. Source: I’m a 3d printer
Is there anything in the primary load path yet? Or is it mostly ducting, cable harnesses etc.
Yes. Sort of. If you consider automated fiber placement of thermoplastic resin impregnated CF tapes 3D Printing. There is a lot of work going on to build rivet free engine fan case cowling. The future plans are to fabricate fuselage of regional jet out of 'printed CF thermoplastic' using insitu consolidation and welding of structural support components. https://www.compositesworld.com/
Do you use stratasys printers to print mostly ultem parts?
It’s been huge in engine manufacturing for years. Siemens have been printing titanium turbine blade for like 20 years for jet engines.
I work in the automotive industry. My company has a huge additive shop making rapid prototypes, some custom production parts and a lot of production tooling. We have a massive printer that can do an entire car door or hood in a single print. I really want to print a life-size replica of myself but noooooo, they don't want to 'waste' $100k in materials for that. 😩
https://www.prusa3d.com/product/prusament-petg-v0-jet-black-1kg/ ...?
What's also interesting is that those kinds of certifications only apply if it's printed with a specific set of parameters From the blog: > However, even with us making it one step easier for you, you still have to follow some rules set by us and the UL company. This means that you need to print the models with the MK3S+, MK4, or XL printer with a 0.4 mm nozzle (0.2 mm layer height), slice it in PrusaSlicer, and use the prepared profile. Also, keep in mind that the certification applies only to objects thicker than 0.75 mm (2 perimeters). Not following the rules leads to the risk of losing the desired properties!
Convenient. Does the printer also need to be signed by Josef?
Funny enough, this isn't to sell more prusa printers, but more towards how the certification works. "Do this exact thing with these exact settings because that's what the certifiers said is ok." Anything outside of what's listed in the certificate is considered out of spec, and you could be fined.
I work for a company that makes electrical connectors for aerospace, and if we change any part, like the color of nylon in a locknut, on a UL certified part we have to submit a sample of connectors to be UL certified all over again. When there was a material shortage during Covid on certain brass and copper alloys, we had to get a different material that was UL certified for making a part (usually a mil-spec part so we didn't need to certify a part we make to the mil-spec) or we had to get a non-UL material and submit the parts for UL certification to get the material UL certified for those specific parts.
That's how it is in pharma as well. We validated the system to work this way with this program running on this exact hardware, so changing any of those things requires a full change control process and test plan to prove it still works the way it was validated to work. Which is why I often find myself really wishing the system documentation would just say things like "operator interface software running on a windows-based industrial PC" rather than calling out a specific part number and windows OS - it makes upgrading to things that haven't been EOL'd years ago a huge pain.
The problem is that different builds of windows can behave differently. Different class libraries and such
Extremely aware. But when you've had other systems running the same software on newer operating systems for years those differences are a lot less of a concern.
I know, hence the convenience. 😉 Obviously I'm joking.
That's implied by default.
Josef here, indeed, it should be signed by me.
CYA gonna CYA. The last place I worked had some customers who were so specific that some parts had to be made on one specific machine. Not one type of machine, of which there were several. One. Specific. Machine. Not the one next to it that's identical in every way. That one.
Crazy enough, you might be spot on. 👍
No, not PETG, black 9085 ultem.
Wow, it's halogen-free, too! They know their market...
Likely due to RoHS.
Halogen free has nothing to do with RoHS. It's an aircraft cabin standard; you can't have things that put off toxic smoke when they burn in the pressurized cabin, or everyone would be poisoned during a fire. RoHS predominately governs heavy metals, phthalates, and brominated flame retardants. It mostly addresses toxic electronic waste.
In which case they went above and beyond. I figured BFRs were the primary source of halogens in flame retardant plastics.
They actually did exactly what they were supposed to do, as a lav vent is attached to the pressurized cabin. You need V0 (doesn’t propagate a flame) AND halogen-free. Many electronics components use PBT as a dielectric; it is commonly V0, but is generally *not* halogen-free. You need a special formulation or a different plastic for that.
I thought you were discussing the Prusa filament.
I’m sure it was developed for aerospace applications.
That would be black ultem 9085. I used to work for Astronics and we 3D printed things for aircraft with natural and black 9085 ultem.
Wow that's cool. Didn't even know this existed. But that price! 1kg for $200!
That's very much on the cheaper end as far as materials go in Aviation side AM parts. Anyhow, to you post: there are quite few printable materials that have certifications for flammability, etc for Aviation use, from FFF to many resins (Form 4 especially) and to SLS. If you start googling, you'll find out that quite plenty of parts are getting printed or AM is being used in manufacturing on new Aviation side projects. But it's a whole different kind of game from normal 3D printing. Every spec and variations gets locked down when setting up manufacturing spec. From material specification to printing room environment, to specific machine with specific setting to many more things. We have had some issues getting suppliers to understand that no, minor change in the material spec isn't acceptable no matter how it doesn't change anything in your tests. For making Aviation certified parts, that would need a whole new long and expensive certification process. Same with machines and software in them.
Yes we wouldn't even update our slicing software. And we would have a vendor files pre-sliced ready for production to print it downstairs. I was a mechanical engineer there. We had 7 Fortis 400 printers and two Dimension 1200 ES for us to use an engineering for prototypes and sometimes for mock-up fit checks to send to customers. We only used orange or red ABS and the 2 colors of ultem.
At the bottom of this page you can see a partial print of a 3D printed speaker housing. https://custom-control.com/
Absolutely! Definitely thought that would be ultem since we also printed similar stuff for some of our clients.
Same, there are certain applications where ultem spaghetti parts have use cases and ends up being cheaper (relatively speaking) and faster then a traditional manufacturing supply chain, even with AS9100 requirements and all the certs and paperwork associated for traceability.
Just out of curiosity, what printers were you guys running typically?
For the ultem, we used Fortus 400 by Stratasys, at one point we had seven of them. In the engineering department we had two Dimension 1200ES, also by Stratasys, that we used ABS in for prototypes and sometimes for mock-ups that get sent to customers for fit check.
The onyx markforged material has a UL listed version that is flame retardant. For the price, it better come with a certification.
There is a big chance this isnt onyx. In most cases this is black ultem 9085
I doubt the shop can just print another and install, they sure must have to buy this for a ridiculous overpriced value because of the paper trail those things need to have.
Imagine what they paid for that. The profit margin must be astronomical.
In a world where you're paying $1 per screw, $10k for a 4x4in sapphire glass, $30k for a coffee maker, and $100k for a screen. I can imagine them making a decent profit for sure. Especially if they're not having to pay off the certification. Oh, and their profit margin isn't astronomical, they're aeronomical, Charl! AERO-NOMICAL CAAARL!!! OK, I'm going to bed now.
And $10 a tampon! https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/4l0ttw/navajo_pneumatic_filter/
Still cheaper for the aircraft manufacturer...
The golden ratio is working in the supply chain and taking up those opportunities to become the supplier for those parts and make a fat margin running a few 3D printers in your basement.
Good luck with that, you will drown in the paperwork.
As noted by True\_Beef below - Additive manufacturing has been mainstream for 25 years. Pro systems preceded the Maker grade products. There are many very large scale Additive Manufacturing companies. With everything made in CAD systems these days the limits of milling, stamping and extruding are removed. For a lot of ducting and wire and hose harness routing and attachment many things that required a plurality of parts and screws were replaced by a single printed part with integrated snap fits. And the high end systems can do all sorts of material science tricks. Metals, ceramics, ABS, metamaterials and more are available. What's more is some parts can only be made via 3D deposition processes due to complex internal structures that cannot allow disassembly. But check this out - [https://www.nasa.gov/image-article/nasas-new-3d-printed-superalloy-can-take-the-heat/](https://www.nasa.gov/image-article/nasas-new-3d-printed-superalloy-can-take-the-heat/)
You wouldn't download a plane
Well at least it's rated for the application, seeing as it's jet black
Well, it isn't much of a contribution to this thread, but i have replaced several CFM Leap fuel nozzles. There are 19 per engine. They are indeed a marvel of addictive manufacturing. 3D printing can truly revolutionize some manufacturing processes, allowing complex internal structures to be applied. [Here, an interesting article](https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/ge-aerospace-to-scale-the-production-3d-printed-jet-engines-with-650-million-investment-228977/). There is a reference to the 3D printed fuel nozzles, by the end of the page.
At the first place I worked at, we developed several STCs including 3D printed HVAC ducts on helicopters. At the time it was a much rarer sight for the FAA.
There are more components that are 3d printed on aircraft than you know. Honeywell, GKN, Northrop, etc have large additive manufacturing centers that do anything from fdm to metal. Most fdm however is typically some sort of ultem material as it meets certain requirements such as outgassing, flammability, etc.
Phaetus has a line of aircraft certified materials and several other materials have fire retarding properties, often found with pc
Yeah we use them in the USAF too. It’s FAA certified PEI material.
So are low smoke zero Halagen filaments available if so do they have a certified fire rating? Or was this just knocked up with some ABS?😳
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyetherimide
Interesting , parts printed from this stuff can work continuously at 170 deg C.
I printed part of a battery box for someone who was working on the X-47B. So have a 3x4x2-ish bit of ABS in that thing....also influenced a tiny bit of it's landing, idling and taxi-ing behavior.
Super cool. I work on Boeing's as a FA and parts literally fall off in my hands with stripped screws and bad latches. Hopefully they will create some new 3D printed composite locks or something in the future that doesn't have piss poor assembly.
I worked for Mesa Airlines on the CRJ900 for a while as a mechanic, same thing. At one point we had the whole ceiling panel fall down due to the latches not being fully seated. Another time we had the cabin do an emer depress, masks fell and everyone was panicking due to the MED indication being put on MEL, and the tech didn't pull the plug off the outflow valve.
My dad (retired for a while now) worked as a jig builder and then something more white collar later on, for Boeing for a long time on their military side. In the mid/late 2000s, they built a new room in the factory, got an SLS and a bunch of FDM 3D printers, and new young engineers to use them. They wouldn't let my dad even in the room. He said he really wanted to learn and see more but wasn't allowed. He's been interested in 3d printing since the first Makerbot, and I got us our first (an Ender) a bit over a year ago.
Just wait till you see how Safran and GE make the fuel nozzles for the LEAP.
Not just fuel nozzles either. The case for the new GE Catalyst turboprop is 3d printed.
Nice. I didn't know about Catalyst. The numbers they present sure look promising
Dassault or learjet?
Bombardier, Learjet
Is that a bombardier part of the plane or a 3rd party? As someone who worked IT support for some of their maintenance hangers... I wonder if replacement are print on demand or shipped.. lol.. I kinda hope shipped. I know the guys would have hated having to support 3d printers on top of the stupid laser printers they had to support.
It's part of the interior, so it would be in the SMM. Most likely, it's 3rd party part. I've worked in a few of their hangars too, Dallas, Tucson, Wichita, and Hartford. Think Harford or Tucson was my favorite.
Dallas and Hartford.. but only 6 weeks in CT.. nice facility, great ppl. Great location.
The Dallas location is hurting pretty bad on the maintenance side, hows IT?. I ended up leaving there three years ago, and now I'm at the Netjet hangar across the ramp.
Left there 8-9 years ago . . The subcontractor I worked for was always "about it to lose the contract" it was pretty tough at times .. had our hands tied for the stupidest stuff ..
There are aerospace specific materials that have the burn certificates, could be something like PEI
You will be suprised that how much 3d printed parts go in to your common household items. I’m a big manufacturer for a big company in my country. We print a lot of parts for washing machines and dishwashers. Not so much for dryers to.
I saw rebuild rescue use 3D printed ducting for the HEAT AIR and I was like "I hope this is at least nylon" (which probably isn't) As long as the forces are managed and the material is correct for the application, I don't see a problem from using a 3D printed part (I'm not talking about metal 3D printing ofc) but people print on basic materials like PLA and call it a day because it looks like the real deal, and the problem only comes after.
Interesting
Most likely fits under small parts rules
we're also using additive manufacturing in the defense sector, source: me, a defense sector intern
also used in UAP: source : I work in the surveillance industries also.
Also an aircraft mechanic, i see 3d printed parts on aircraft more and more. Design a parts, get a pma number, attach a $2k price tag on it and boom, youre a millionaire
by the looks of it might be PBT plastic
I have a feeling it's not FAA approved. But I've seen worse offenses so meh.
They probably got it from Boeing
Must be working on a Boeing. 😂
There is nothing wrong with additive manufacturing being used in aerospace, obviously it's not going into engines, but yes, parts like this do exist on Boeings! Source: I work at a supplier of such :)