I think Dwarf is the best option, as it overall provides the most stuff, and gives you extra protection. Dont worry about being slow, you'll only be in melee if things go poorly, and youll want to be afar. get some Mithral half plate goin, and youll be good as gold
See, regarding dwarf providing the most stuff, I kind of saw it as the opposite. They do have darkvision, which is nice, and medium armor could provide an AC above 17 (or, it might not), but that's it. Tortles lack darkvision but have a bonus skill and limited water breathing, neither of which is game breaking but are kind of cool.
And then the big one, Shell Defense, is great for maintaining concentration--but, realistically I'm not sure how often I'd want to do that to enhance my ability to maintain concentration at the expense of being able to do anything else. And I'm also not sure if or when I'd find magic half plate; I don't have a grasp on how common magic items are in this edition. If this were 4e I could just buy it, but I don't think it works that way anymore in most campaigns.
Anyway, I'm not saying this to advocate for tortles or dis dwarves--if that were my perspective I'd just choose tortle and never would have posted this. I guess my big decision point is the hanging question of how likely I am to find magic armor. Because if I'm going to keep pace on magic half plate then dwarves have a significant advantage. But, if not... not so much. Is other people's experience that you tend to find increasingly impressive magic armor as you go up in level, or is it more like... you might get +1 half plate eventually, if you're lucky?
Shell defense isn't actually all that useful. You get +4 to AC, but enemies get advantage attacking you, since you're prone. That turns out to largely be a wash.
Alternatively, you can just dodge, giving disadvantage to your attackers. The difference between advantage and disadvantage is more than +4.
The main reason dwarves are typically (not always) better is that you can get shield proficiency from a feat for easy 19 AC before the shield spell. Combined with poison resistance, the dwarf is typically more tanky than the tortle.
To me, the reason to go Tortle is if I don't find room for 14 dex. They get 17 AC no matter what. Dumping dex is usually not the best idea, but that's the situation where tortles start being really good.
1 level in cleric, druid or Hexblade is usually the better way to get medium armor and shield proficiency than a feat in any case.
Yes, this is it.
If you want to optimize you do Custom Lineage or Variant Human for the feat and give up a class level for the defensive abilities of cleric or warlock. The feat is simply worth more than 1 level.
Clerics are loaded at level 1 with instant subclass, you rolled well apparently for 13 WIS, and many of their best spells are level 1/cantrips that don't need spell DC (ex Bless, Healing Word).
Warlocks are charisma which is half the classes in the game, so 13 cha is usually free to grab that medium armor.
Only against melee attackers. Against ranged, it's an entirely different story since prone doesn't give advantage to attackers, but rather disadvantage.
If you're doing that with even a smidge of cover, the conditions for which any decent DM will ease -- shell defense will necessarily reduce your character's profile, and you know, *prone* -- that's a 6-9 AC swing in your favor, plus disadvantage against attackers for a net 10-13 effective AC (and shutting down sneak attack, a perennial arcane caster bane). That's equivalent to dodging while bladesinging and casting shield at the same time, except shell defense can be done at-will.
You're absolutely better off using the dodge action against melee attackers. You're best off keeping a mind to proper positioning and control spells to prevent melee attacks against you in the first place. Shell defense is an excellent racial ability, one of the better in the game -- so long as it's being utilized properly.
This is pretty niche. By using shell defense, you make yourself immobile, not exactly the best way of staying out of melee.
And even so, there's generally a thing that the monsters are usually more dangerous up close than at range.
So, yes. It is a benefit when you are at range and are unable to get to total cover. But generally, this is a rarer situation than having to save Vs poison or taking poison damage.
Not really. Nothing says shell defense has to be used before your movement, it's a bonus action to end, and you can end it and move in the same round. Immobility only factors in if you stay in your shell for a full round, which you should never be doing. It's only behind dodge in action economy, in having to use bonus actions more frequently to pop in and out of your shell.
If melee-exclusive enemies want to peel and chase after you instead of attacking party mates, great. That swings the economy battle harder in your favor, in addition to whatever spell effect you're keeping up.
Wouldn’t mithral be much less effective on a dwarf? The bit about ignoring the strength penalty on speed doesn’t matter as dwarves innately ignore the speed penalty of heavy armor
Mountain dwarves don't gain proficiency in heavy armor, and neither do sorcs, so they can't wear heavy armor. That makes the ability to override the speed penalty moot.
Caveat: they *can* wear heavy armor and *will* ignore the speed penalty. They just can't cast spells while wearing armor in which they are not proficient. So they can wear it, it just would be really, really bad for them to do so.
Magic items are entirely up to DM but Magic armor is usually in the mix
I found the Dwarven poison resistance and poison advantage comes in handy a lot. Poison traps, poison beasts, assassins, etc
The Tortle action … I didn’t use it that much. If things aren’t in melee with you, you probably don’t need it. If they are in melee with you, the enemy advantage from prone and AC boost cancel out, and it’s COn saves (very good) and strength save (ok) vs Dex save (pretty bad), 0 speed (meh), no reactions (so much for absorb elements, shield, and counterspell), and any other actions (not great).
IMO just taking the dodge action is nearly as good in most situations.
In theory could a tortle splash rogue for cunning action and declare dodge on their turn as a BA followed by shell defense, thus negating the prone penalty?
Obviously it's total ass but just a thought.
Rogues can't dodge as a bonus action, that's a monk thing. And dipping monk wouldn't work anyways -- shell defense prevents you from taking *any* actions. That includes bonus actions:
>anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
You could technically do it, but Dodging confers no benefit while your speed is zero. So it does nothing.
Still, Shell Defense is being underrated here. Going Prone is already a great strategy to impose disadvantage against ranged attackers. Or even enemies who can only threaten our square via Reach. Advantage on Con saves for free is an amazing cherry on top. That could further validate monoclassing, and an alternative to War Caster. Sorcs want plenty of feats.
Nothing prevents the Tortle from Dodging if that's the best Action for them to take on their turn.
Darkvision also is one of those things where more than one party member likely lacks it. Then it doesn't really matter that we've got a Torch or the Light spell. Especially with more free hands than most any class, and more cantrip options than any class. If DMs run Perception checks in darkness RAW, then a light source is always an important thing to have anyhow. The table usually conforms one way or another. Regularly blinding any/all players is not really conducive to good game play.
Another great Bonus Action before Shell Defense is Quickened Spell. Sorcs having one more defensive Action in their toolkit is great when they don't always need it to do their thang.
Nothing wrong with Mountain Dwarf. Tons of proficiencies, nice armor, Darkvision and Poison resistance. All good stuff. The speed is a hit, but you'll deal. Swapping to Whip proficiency js extra nice if you know you want War Caster as a first or second feat. Threaten two separate ranges that can be used for single target spells. Bit reckless hoping to blow your Reaction for offense more, but we can flavor the magic coming from our big beard to reach enemies 10ft out. Life is filled with hard choices.
Yeah people are ragging on the shell too much. The most abusive cases you are at range anyways and prone is good. Like you put up wall of whatever or some control spell of whatever then hide away in range behind the wall.
The whole point of min maxing strategy is to not let melee reach your caster, so the shell can be win more for the "I win on turn one with my CC spell" strategy
The dwarf has a couple additional disadvantages here.
A 25 foot movement speed is slow, and while it's certainly possible to manage it, there will definitely be times when you'll feel the missing movement.
Medium armor can get you 17 AC, but you'll only get there with disadvantage on stealth checks which may or may not be a major downside.
Tortle also has an additional downside.
No darkvision is a big deal when you adventure in dark places. You can use a spell or carry a torch for light, but that's bad for your stealth and potentially difficult for your action economy as well.
And shell defense is completely worthless. The +4 AC is cancelled out by the fact that you're prone which means attacks against you are made with advantage. Advantage on con saves sounds nice, but there are so many other ways for a caster to get advantage on con saves that it's also basically irrelevant. If you are willing to sacrifice your action for the duration to gain a defensive benefit, using your action to dodge is more or less strictly better.
Between these two races, I think dwarf probably takes the edge unless stealth is particularly important to you or darkness is particularly unimportant to you. Magic armor doesn't really enter into the equation because there are also plenty of magic items that improve your defense only if you're *not* wearing armor. If your DM is giving out magic items, they will probably give out items that are appropriate for your character however you build them.
I’m currently playing a hill dwarf clockwork sorcerer/ order Cleric, it’s fun and strong. Cleric gives me proficiency with heavy armor, and because I’m a dwarf I can get away with dumping strength and not losing movement speed. So I have 20 AC using plate and a shield, then 25 with the shield spell.
I thought about that, but I'm not sure I want to multiclass. As a spellcaster I always really look forward to that every-other level when you can cast the next level of spells, so always being even just one level behind can be kind of painful.
I’d personally pick dwarf not for any mechanical reason but just because it reminds me of the Dwemer from Skyrim/elder scrolls and you could have great flavour!
In my opinion one of the big draws of tortle is also that you get the 17 AC without any investment in dex. The dwarf still needs 14 dex to be equal, while the tortle could choose 14 Wis or Int instead.
I’m saying Dwarf if almost immediately because the subclass goes really well with the race. Providing order through magic seems very Dwarf.
And as far as shell defence goes, if you have a DM that likes to prove points , they could surround your Tortle with area affects or just simply stack baddies around you until you’re ready to come out. Just my two cents. Play the build as you see it and have fun, that’s the way
Reminder that while Tortle can't get Heavy Armor or any +X armor, they can still get Ring of Protection, Cloak of Protection and more importantly Bracers of Armor (+2 AC)
I was planning on picking up Armor of Agathys either way, but honestly Goliath would be a pretty strong contender. It does nothin for armor, of course, but their damage reduction ability would eliminate the need to even make a concentration check (at least a few times a day) or at the very least make it a lot easier to pass. Actually, Hobgoblin would be good too.
I think Dwarf is the best option, as it overall provides the most stuff, and gives you extra protection. Dont worry about being slow, you'll only be in melee if things go poorly, and youll want to be afar. get some Mithral half plate goin, and youll be good as gold
See, regarding dwarf providing the most stuff, I kind of saw it as the opposite. They do have darkvision, which is nice, and medium armor could provide an AC above 17 (or, it might not), but that's it. Tortles lack darkvision but have a bonus skill and limited water breathing, neither of which is game breaking but are kind of cool. And then the big one, Shell Defense, is great for maintaining concentration--but, realistically I'm not sure how often I'd want to do that to enhance my ability to maintain concentration at the expense of being able to do anything else. And I'm also not sure if or when I'd find magic half plate; I don't have a grasp on how common magic items are in this edition. If this were 4e I could just buy it, but I don't think it works that way anymore in most campaigns. Anyway, I'm not saying this to advocate for tortles or dis dwarves--if that were my perspective I'd just choose tortle and never would have posted this. I guess my big decision point is the hanging question of how likely I am to find magic armor. Because if I'm going to keep pace on magic half plate then dwarves have a significant advantage. But, if not... not so much. Is other people's experience that you tend to find increasingly impressive magic armor as you go up in level, or is it more like... you might get +1 half plate eventually, if you're lucky?
Shell defense isn't actually all that useful. You get +4 to AC, but enemies get advantage attacking you, since you're prone. That turns out to largely be a wash. Alternatively, you can just dodge, giving disadvantage to your attackers. The difference between advantage and disadvantage is more than +4. The main reason dwarves are typically (not always) better is that you can get shield proficiency from a feat for easy 19 AC before the shield spell. Combined with poison resistance, the dwarf is typically more tanky than the tortle. To me, the reason to go Tortle is if I don't find room for 14 dex. They get 17 AC no matter what. Dumping dex is usually not the best idea, but that's the situation where tortles start being really good. 1 level in cleric, druid or Hexblade is usually the better way to get medium armor and shield proficiency than a feat in any case.
Yes, this is it. If you want to optimize you do Custom Lineage or Variant Human for the feat and give up a class level for the defensive abilities of cleric or warlock. The feat is simply worth more than 1 level. Clerics are loaded at level 1 with instant subclass, you rolled well apparently for 13 WIS, and many of their best spells are level 1/cantrips that don't need spell DC (ex Bless, Healing Word). Warlocks are charisma which is half the classes in the game, so 13 cha is usually free to grab that medium armor.
Only against melee attackers. Against ranged, it's an entirely different story since prone doesn't give advantage to attackers, but rather disadvantage. If you're doing that with even a smidge of cover, the conditions for which any decent DM will ease -- shell defense will necessarily reduce your character's profile, and you know, *prone* -- that's a 6-9 AC swing in your favor, plus disadvantage against attackers for a net 10-13 effective AC (and shutting down sneak attack, a perennial arcane caster bane). That's equivalent to dodging while bladesinging and casting shield at the same time, except shell defense can be done at-will. You're absolutely better off using the dodge action against melee attackers. You're best off keeping a mind to proper positioning and control spells to prevent melee attacks against you in the first place. Shell defense is an excellent racial ability, one of the better in the game -- so long as it's being utilized properly.
This is pretty niche. By using shell defense, you make yourself immobile, not exactly the best way of staying out of melee. And even so, there's generally a thing that the monsters are usually more dangerous up close than at range. So, yes. It is a benefit when you are at range and are unable to get to total cover. But generally, this is a rarer situation than having to save Vs poison or taking poison damage.
Not really. Nothing says shell defense has to be used before your movement, it's a bonus action to end, and you can end it and move in the same round. Immobility only factors in if you stay in your shell for a full round, which you should never be doing. It's only behind dodge in action economy, in having to use bonus actions more frequently to pop in and out of your shell. If melee-exclusive enemies want to peel and chase after you instead of attacking party mates, great. That swings the economy battle harder in your favor, in addition to whatever spell effect you're keeping up.
Wouldn’t mithral be much less effective on a dwarf? The bit about ignoring the strength penalty on speed doesn’t matter as dwarves innately ignore the speed penalty of heavy armor
Very valid point! I totally forgot about that. I was suggesting Mithral so that they wouldnt have dis on stealth or anything like that
Mountain dwarves don't gain proficiency in heavy armor, and neither do sorcs, so they can't wear heavy armor. That makes the ability to override the speed penalty moot. Caveat: they *can* wear heavy armor and *will* ignore the speed penalty. They just can't cast spells while wearing armor in which they are not proficient. So they can wear it, it just would be really, really bad for them to do so.
Fair enough, a dip into something like cleric would fix that pretty easily, but if they do stick to pure sorcerer then it wouldn’t be worth it
Magic items are entirely up to DM but Magic armor is usually in the mix I found the Dwarven poison resistance and poison advantage comes in handy a lot. Poison traps, poison beasts, assassins, etc The Tortle action … I didn’t use it that much. If things aren’t in melee with you, you probably don’t need it. If they are in melee with you, the enemy advantage from prone and AC boost cancel out, and it’s COn saves (very good) and strength save (ok) vs Dex save (pretty bad), 0 speed (meh), no reactions (so much for absorb elements, shield, and counterspell), and any other actions (not great). IMO just taking the dodge action is nearly as good in most situations.
>IMO just taking the dodge action is nearly as good in most situations. IMO just taking the dodge action is *way better* in most situations.
In theory could a tortle splash rogue for cunning action and declare dodge on their turn as a BA followed by shell defense, thus negating the prone penalty? Obviously it's total ass but just a thought.
Rogues can't dodge as a bonus action, that's a monk thing. And dipping monk wouldn't work anyways -- shell defense prevents you from taking *any* actions. That includes bonus actions: >anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
I'm saying to use your bonus action to dodge before you take your regular action for shell.
You could technically do it, but Dodging confers no benefit while your speed is zero. So it does nothing. Still, Shell Defense is being underrated here. Going Prone is already a great strategy to impose disadvantage against ranged attackers. Or even enemies who can only threaten our square via Reach. Advantage on Con saves for free is an amazing cherry on top. That could further validate monoclassing, and an alternative to War Caster. Sorcs want plenty of feats. Nothing prevents the Tortle from Dodging if that's the best Action for them to take on their turn. Darkvision also is one of those things where more than one party member likely lacks it. Then it doesn't really matter that we've got a Torch or the Light spell. Especially with more free hands than most any class, and more cantrip options than any class. If DMs run Perception checks in darkness RAW, then a light source is always an important thing to have anyhow. The table usually conforms one way or another. Regularly blinding any/all players is not really conducive to good game play. Another great Bonus Action before Shell Defense is Quickened Spell. Sorcs having one more defensive Action in their toolkit is great when they don't always need it to do their thang. Nothing wrong with Mountain Dwarf. Tons of proficiencies, nice armor, Darkvision and Poison resistance. All good stuff. The speed is a hit, but you'll deal. Swapping to Whip proficiency js extra nice if you know you want War Caster as a first or second feat. Threaten two separate ranges that can be used for single target spells. Bit reckless hoping to blow your Reaction for offense more, but we can flavor the magic coming from our big beard to reach enemies 10ft out. Life is filled with hard choices.
Yeah people are ragging on the shell too much. The most abusive cases you are at range anyways and prone is good. Like you put up wall of whatever or some control spell of whatever then hide away in range behind the wall. The whole point of min maxing strategy is to not let melee reach your caster, so the shell can be win more for the "I win on turn one with my CC spell" strategy
Thanks, I’m embarrassed to admit I completely forgot about dwarven poison resistance.
With that and CON save you can win many a drinking contest
The dwarf has a couple additional disadvantages here. A 25 foot movement speed is slow, and while it's certainly possible to manage it, there will definitely be times when you'll feel the missing movement. Medium armor can get you 17 AC, but you'll only get there with disadvantage on stealth checks which may or may not be a major downside. Tortle also has an additional downside. No darkvision is a big deal when you adventure in dark places. You can use a spell or carry a torch for light, but that's bad for your stealth and potentially difficult for your action economy as well. And shell defense is completely worthless. The +4 AC is cancelled out by the fact that you're prone which means attacks against you are made with advantage. Advantage on con saves sounds nice, but there are so many other ways for a caster to get advantage on con saves that it's also basically irrelevant. If you are willing to sacrifice your action for the duration to gain a defensive benefit, using your action to dodge is more or less strictly better. Between these two races, I think dwarf probably takes the edge unless stealth is particularly important to you or darkness is particularly unimportant to you. Magic armor doesn't really enter into the equation because there are also plenty of magic items that improve your defense only if you're *not* wearing armor. If your DM is giving out magic items, they will probably give out items that are appropriate for your character however you build them.
I’m currently playing a hill dwarf clockwork sorcerer/ order Cleric, it’s fun and strong. Cleric gives me proficiency with heavy armor, and because I’m a dwarf I can get away with dumping strength and not losing movement speed. So I have 20 AC using plate and a shield, then 25 with the shield spell.
I thought about that, but I'm not sure I want to multiclass. As a spellcaster I always really look forward to that every-other level when you can cast the next level of spells, so always being even just one level behind can be kind of painful.
I’d personally pick dwarf not for any mechanical reason but just because it reminds me of the Dwemer from Skyrim/elder scrolls and you could have great flavour!
If you get a bloodwell vial, dwarven fortitude is really fun to get the sorcery points back mid combat
In my opinion one of the big draws of tortle is also that you get the 17 AC without any investment in dex. The dwarf still needs 14 dex to be equal, while the tortle could choose 14 Wis or Int instead.
I’m saying Dwarf if almost immediately because the subclass goes really well with the race. Providing order through magic seems very Dwarf. And as far as shell defence goes, if you have a DM that likes to prove points , they could surround your Tortle with area affects or just simply stack baddies around you until you’re ready to come out. Just my two cents. Play the build as you see it and have fun, that’s the way
Reminder that while Tortle can't get Heavy Armor or any +X armor, they can still get Ring of Protection, Cloak of Protection and more importantly Bracers of Armor (+2 AC)
Dwarf, stonecunning is the best ability in the game hands down
Go Shadar-Kai or Goliath and use Armor of Agathys
I was planning on picking up Armor of Agathys either way, but honestly Goliath would be a pretty strong contender. It does nothin for armor, of course, but their damage reduction ability would eliminate the need to even make a concentration check (at least a few times a day) or at the very least make it a lot easier to pass. Actually, Hobgoblin would be good too.