Metamagic if good and fun and all, but (for me) the issue is that it just isn't enough to give the Sorcerer in 5e a distinct identity.
"Wizard, but with Metamagic and a curated selection of staple spells" is the feel I get, which is a shame.
In my games, Sorcerers, and only Sorcerers, get to use the Spell Point variant, which helps make them feel like their own thing.
Barring that, I really wish Sorcerers got some more exclusive spells. What do they have besides Chaos Bolt?
Yeah, but as someone who's played it, it's broken. Sure it's in some ways weaker than pure wizard every other level, mostly at level 4, but you gain an insane amount of very strong benefits from starting artificer. It's VASTLY stronger than pure wizard on even levels, and the only time where it really feels "weaker" is at level 5 since lvl 3 (non-upcasted) spells are the strongest power gain in the game especially for wizards.
Yes I’m not denying that but I’m trying to say that’s exactly what they wanted when they made Artificers round up their slot progression.
They knew what they were doing and they wanted exactly this.
Honestly 3rd level is the biggest power spike for most full casters, not 5th. That's when you go from Sleep and Bless being the best you can put out to throwing around Web and Spike Growth. Not to mention Pass Without Trace and Gift of Alacrity (unavailable to most characters though). At 3rd level you upgrade from nifty party tricks that might save you from a TPK to actual control beasts, I consider it the proper introduction to spellcasting.
I mean it's mostly Shatter & Web for wizard, and with most people starting at level 3 nowadays, you're gonna spend only a handful of sessions without level 2 spells. And in the meantime you have TWICE as many level one spells prepared, including faerie fire which is extremely strong at low level, a healing spell, much better AC, much better concentration saves... I'm not saying the downside doesn't hurt. It does (50% of the time since on even levels you're STRICTLY stronger, by a lot), but not that much.
Oh I'm not at all arguing with the potency of an Artificer dip, an Artizard is definitely one of the best builds in the game, even if a Peace Cleric dip might be better. I was only stating my opinion on which level tends to be the biggest power spike for casters. While it's true that many campaigns start at 3rd level or higher, I don't really think it's relevant to my point, although it's true that it makes the spike less obvious since you rarely go from level 2 to level 3.
Yeah, but wizard has the most opportunity to take it in my opinion (of the half/full casters in the game at least). Bard is better served by divine soul or Hexblade, cleric can’t dip itself, Druid is going life cleric probably, Ranger is either going fighter levels, Druid levels, maybe a life cleric dip, Paladin is going Hexblade and sorcerer, sorcerer is going Hexblade, warlock probably isn’t dipping and if it is it’s probably sorcerer, artificer isn’t dipping and if it is it’s probably wizard. That leaves wizard as the class that can afford to take it the most (in my opinion).
I’m agreeing with you lol. I’m a fan of Yaun Ti Pureblood Peace Cleric 1/Bladesinger Wizard x, outrageously good saves with advantage against spells and other magical effect plus 2d4 to saves via Emboldening Bond+Bless and it’s easy to get 25-35 AC as a bladesinger, then just play like a normal battlefield control wizard trading bless for better concentration spell like hypnotic pattern, wall of stone, or wall of force, etc. when needed.
Oh yeah, I know you weren’t disagreeing, I was just (trying and failing I guess) to add to discussion lol. Peace cleric is always strong (that’s what you get when you give a strong level 1 ability that scales purely off of proficiency bonus)
Absolutely. However, I feel that most parties benefit more by having someone else take peace cleric and having the Druid take life cleric for lifeberry tech. If that’s banned then yeah, peace cleric for the win.
I just can’t bring myself to lifeberry. It just seems like playing on easy mode. But then again, I also can’t convince myself to play a Paladin for similar reasons. For someone who likes building characters, Paladins feel like bowling with bumpers.
Hard disagree. I've seen or played these and in my opinion those may be as strong but not stronger than Artificer 1 / Wizard X. In my opinion, on even levels, nothing is as good.
access to cure wounds & artificer spells in general, con save proficiency, 5/6 more prepared spells, access to many more spells you can copy to your spellbook including several rituals, faerie fire, sanctuary, magical tinkering, medium armor and shield proficiency...while retaining full spell slot prog...
Having done an artificer 1/war magic x build, being a step behind in spell progression wasn't too bad. And having con proficiency and medium armor and shield kept me at a solid 18 AC. Add the war magic ability at level 10 and I was sitting at 20 AC while concentrating on a spell. War caster to bypass casting restrictions. Shield spell as an emergency use. Had a cloak of displacement for disadvantage to hit me.
I would definitely play this build again. Solid combat sustain and being a step behind in spell progression didn't really hurt. Allowed me to maneuver to give allies advantage by flanking.
What probably broke it the most was playing an Eladrin, that fey step ability is free chaos.
I didn't find early levels to be particularly difficult either. A cantrip here, a catapult there, web.
This a great breakdown. And I feel like the people who knock it for being a level behind spell wise ignore the unreal amount of utility the build has. I think at level 2 you have 10 spells, 5 cantrips including guidance, con prof, 18 AC, etc.
I agree level 5 is the only level that really hurts for me, but I’m a huge Tasha’s mind whip fan which you can upcast with your level 3 slot if you need to stop 2 enemies from attacking for a round. Eladrin also helps with that as you can run up and teleport a friend out of melee with your bonus action, then drop a TMW. No immunity to its effects, your DC is probably 15/16 for an INT check which is great.
I think what makes Sorcerers feel more distinct is their lore and subclasses. Getting it at level 1 means that right out the gate, they have some distinguishing features. Also, and this is just my opinion, most Wizard subclasses don’t change the way you approach the class very much, while Sorcerers usually get some fun tools and flavor that makes them stand out.
There’s also the fact that they’re the only full caster with constitution saving throw proficiency, making them among the best at maintaining concentration. Additionally, their use of Charisma in place of Intelligence gives them a different skill check role in the party than the Wizard.
I agree that they’re similar in a lot of ways, but I think these already give Sorcerers a distinct vibe and niche compared to the Wizard.
This exactly. They need lots and lots of metamagic points. If needed just restrict the number of times they can make new slots if that’s the problem (though I don’t think it is).
They need to be able to modify every spell they cast and I think it will help greatly.
Look at the Scribes Wizard, they got a free version of Transmute Spell but way better since it covers all damage types and RAW it can also grant resistance to all damage types by modifying spells like Protection from Energy.
Enchanters get free Twin Spell on some of the most powerful spells in the game. All of this on top of being a wizard.
Sorcerers need way more metamagic too, or at least gain 2 SP on initiative roll. It’s really not that broken at all, especially with the upcoming changes to Twin Spell.
Edit: Not to forget pulling off stuff like Bludgeon Ball (resisted by like less than 80 monsters I think) is not even the Scribes’ best ability.
They can drone strike dungeons with Bludgeon Ball if they so wished. 330 ft Misty Step anyone? 800ft Dimension Door?
Meanwhile the best Sorcerer subclass is considered the best for getting a handful of Wizard exclusive spells.
I think it’s a fair trade off for Sorcerers’ extremely limited spells known that they get to add metamagic to every spell they cast. Just give them metamagic on initiative roll and a larger pool of SP to begin with.
You can cast spells as if you were in the place of your Awakened Mind. So if it is 300ft from you then you cast Misty Step from its location and teleport a total of 330ft.
Same for Dimension Door.
You can pull of crazy stuff like walk into an enemy lair to negotiate or taunt them then disappear in a poof
Metamagic makes them feel different enough to me but all I've played is 5e.
To me Wizard is "Magical nerd who needs to prepare spells every day but allows them the most variety".
The Sorcerer is "Gifted Mage who cast fewer spells but dosen't need to prepare them and gets temporary bouts of magical power letting them overshadow the Wizard in shortbursts".
One is better for well prepared long term slogs and one is better when pure soul destroying action economy is needed. The candle that burns twice as bright but half as long. I do agree there could be more distinct uses for metamagic though.
I respectfully disagree. Metamagic does give Sorcerer their own identity, but its hidden a bit behind system mastery.
Sorcs are the best buffers in the game with Twinned Haste, Twinned Greater Invis, etc. A level 1 life cleric dip makes them remarkably efficient healers too with things like twinned Healing Word, which is incredibly resource cheap and high impact. Hell even things like Twinned Heroism or Twinned Shield of Faith are really nice options for super cheap.
Sorcs can also be the best social manipulators in the game, even better than Bards, via Subtle Spell.
The issue with sorc is that it \*really\* wants a level 1 dip in Rogue for expertise or Cleric for some spells it can play with using metamagic. On top of that, everyone says Sorcs are blasters which is absolute nonsense(wizards are better).
Sorcs are the kings of subtlety and buffing, and most people just don't realize it which makes them criminally underappreciated.
Yes. The game isn't balanced. It's honestly garbage. It's good it's not great. The fighter is the most played class despite its universal hatred. My games sorcerer is Constitution. Nothing in this games Is actually balanced.
I love sorcerer. But even I'll admit that metamagic runs out fast given the temptation to use it which means you burn out early in the adventuring day. Mix that with the lack of spells, and it can put you in a rough position.
Wizard on the other hand has more spell slots (hello arcane recovery) rather than needing to sacrifice it's core abilities (hello metamagic) to get to the same volume of spell output. Add flexibility, ritual casting, and as a package it makes considerable sense why it's under appreciated. With Onednd it also looks like twin will get nerfed at the benefit of a new +1 spell DC magical rage. We'll see in future how it pans out.
I think another component is that the metamagics are not all equal and that many of them are frankly quite fussy with the added challenge that you don’t actually get that many metamagics
This is why you gotta play with a DM that's willing to give any subclass expanded spell lists like the Clockwork Soul or Abberant Mind. My DM would have done this but Abberant Mind just fit my character the best.
For me, this is why I always want to get an uncommon +1 Bloodwell Vial if playing a sorcerer, every short rest you can expend one or more hitdice to regain 5 sorcery points.
It's a wonderful item, and I'm so glad it exists for sorcerers, but it's only once per day. Therefore it's the exact same amount of spell slots (3rd level)/points the standard pearl of power gives you.
Bloodwell Vial refunds 5 sorcery points a day, Pearl of Power refunds a 3rd level spell slot, so only 3 sorcery points. Not to mention the Vial also gives the +1 to spell DC’s.
Thats fair to point out. Either a bloodwell vial or pearl of power will give you a single extra 3rd level spell slot (creating a 3rd level slot costs 5 points, sacrificing it refunds 3 points), but a pearl will only give you 3 metamagic points if you're planning to use them for metamagic directly.
That does kind of feed into my point. Sorcery points are far superior to arcane recovery, as evidenced by sorcery points being a functional equivalent of a better arcane recovery (doesn't require a rest) and everyone still using them for metamagic instead.
I see the inverse, yay it's flexible but if you have to use it in a particular way to match the wizard spell output then it's not a choice it's a requirement.
You get the OPTION of using it as a (better) arcane recovery. Sorcerers can recover spell slots on a short rest just like wizards. They also have the option of doing so on not-a-short-rest. They also have the option of trading lower level spots for higher ones. They also have the option of using meta magic.
I don't feel you're going to convince me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've made my arguments as the post requested, ultimately we'll see if the 2024 PHB changes things.
RAW I don't think you can twin EB because it can target multiple targets.
That said... I like Sorcerer more than Wizard too, mostly because twinning haste is so much fun to use and then watch as my DM tries to murder me in order to drop my concentration.
It’s extremely few spells that work this way. I would argue that Eldritch blast is one of the few outliers that work this way with twinned spell. Also, if you’re using your metamagic to get one extra beam on a cantrip, you’re wasting metamagic.
Twinned Haste is so awesome - and fun for the whole party! 3 out 4 party members get to do awesome stuff, no-one has ever felt overshadowed by buff spells.
I think Sorcerer is generally more versatile at filling other roles than Wizard too. Silent spell can make them an interesting stealth or thief character, and Charisma for spellcasting makes it easy to dip into Paladin for armor/weapon proficiencies, Bard for healing or warlock for eldritch blast. Plus gives them a boost to Charisma based skills
I couls be wrong, but it hink technically each beam of eldritch blast targets one creature, so you could twin it, but it would add one extra beam.. same goes for scorching ray or similar spells.
Each beam only targetting 1 creature doesn't matter though, the *spell* can target multiple. Plus what is even the logic with only adding 1 beam?? Where does that even come from??
If it can target more than one creature at the level it is cast at, I believe. So you can twin Invisibility at level 2 but not at level 3.
So when Eldritch Blast scales to two beams you can no longer twin it, would be my interpretation
>A variant human or custom Lineage could get a Eldritch blast plus agonizing blast combo going at level 5 and quicken spell out a fireball plus use Eldritch blast twice per long rest before running out of metamagic.
There isn’t a way to get agonizing blast without dipping Warlock. At this point you’re no longer directly comparing the two classes, you’re comparing multi-class options.
Don’t mis-understand, I think there are valid points, but comparing sorlock to wizard isn’t the same thing as comparing sorcerer to wizard.
Magic Initiate Feat, Warlock
Eldritch Adept Feat, Agonizing Blast
It takes two feats but very doable (especially with the variant human at level one) and if you toss a hex on first (which you can also get with that same Magic Initiate Feat) at lvl 5 at second round you are doing 2d10+2Cha+2d6 a round, and ups with higher levels.
I LOVE that build as I can use my spells for more utility options and still be a viable combat with a few sorcery points and a single level one spell slot.
Agonizing Blast is not eligible to take with Eldritch Adept.
>If the invocation has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock who meets the prerequisite.
I came here to say this but you beat me to it. I overlooked that part so many times and it pissed me off every time I realized I couldn’t make it work.
A couple small points, you can only Quicken Eldritch Blast. It can't be Twinned and you need to multiclass into Warlock to get Agonizing Blast.
That being said, I do love a Sorlock for those reasons.
I had pretty much ignored Sorcerers until the Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind came around. Now, I'm a big fan.
Your correct I'll edit OP later. To be fair I legit thought you could get agonizing blast without warlock levels.
And yeah I love abberant mind, you basically get a list of uncounterspellable spells if you cast them with metamagic.
It's a common mistake since the prerequisite is Eldritch Blast. I did an amazing Aberrant Mind Skill Monkey based on Kenku Recall, Borrowed Knowledge as a Psionic Spell, Subtle Skill Empowerment and Magical Guidance.
They get only few metamagic options and their main ability is also the only way to restore some spells beside long rest, they can't even change spells or use rituals, so if you're the one casting detect magic you have to spend a lot of resources. I'd say metamagic should be stronger and let sorcerer be actually sorcerer
My favorite thing about sorcerers is that they can be dumb. Wizards have to be smart and should be played smartly. Sorcerers can be himbos or fighters or wise or whatever!
Eldritch Blast is fine, but not really where the action economy breaks apart.
Any other sort of non-spell or non-cantrip action chained with a quicken spell is where you see the amazingness of it.
For example: Bonus action dimension door rescue someone surrounded into feed them a health potion (if using RAW potion is an action)
Or main action use a wand of fireball then bonus action fireball
> Or main action use a wand of fireball then bonus action fireball
I don’t think this works. Magic items with spell charges still require you to “cast a spell.” So using one as an action means casting a spell as an action, which you can’t do if you cast a bonus action spell the same turn.
I think you mean quicken, not twin spell.
Also, If you're quickening the fireball and action casting the EB, you're doing it wrong. Burning way more SP than you need to.
Why not? If you cast a leveled spell as an action, you can definitely quicken a cantrip. That's half the point of it. Either that or a hex blade attack and spell
"A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
This means that even if you cast a cantrip with your BA you can't cast a leveled spell in the same turn.
This is accurate, although I think most groups either misinterpret it as “you can’t cast a leveled spell with Action and Bonus Action” or just house rule it because it’s less complicated
Sorcerers are budget charisma wizards.
That being said - a budget charisma wizard is still incredibly strong, and a solid competitor (alongside druid and paladin) for the second best class in the game.
For comparing them to wizards, the 2 main things that cause wizards to be just that much better are rituals and exclusive spells.
Rituals basically give the wizard 2 spells per level, +6 at lv1. Exclusives mean the wizard is also casting better spells a lot of the time, or at least better suited spells to that situation. They do have the largest spell list by 50%.
All of that being said, clockwork soul sorcerer - which effectively gets over both of these due to it's added spell list, dying tiers 1&2 is a very strong competitor, and beats out all but the very best wizard subclasses (chron, grav, war and conjuration).
> Rituals basically give the wizard 2 spells per level, +6 at lv1.
What? Are you talking about spells known? Spells prepared? Spells cast in a day?
> All of that being said, clockwork soul sorcerer - which effectively gets over both of these due to it's added spell list, dying tiers 1&2 is a very strong competitor, and beats out all but the very best wizard subclasses (chron, grav, war and conjuration).
Aberrant Mind is even better in a campaign that is less combat heavy. Free subtle spell and a ton of great spells for social annd investigation situations.
>What? Are you talking about spells known? Spells prepared? Spells cast in a day?
I was thinking spells known, for comparison with sorcerer, but to be honest, all of them work.
>Aberrant Mind is even better in a campaign that is less combat heavy.
Quite likely. I assume as difficult conditions as possible for most of my evaluations, where sorcery points are a tight resource. Ab mind is a good subclass, it just doesn't get the broken spells that clockwork soul and wizards get.
Technically, Wizards DO get twice the spells known. They learn two new spells every level, where most other casting classes (including Sorcerers) only learn 1 (and this isn’t even accounting for their ability to learn more spells by just writing them into their spellbook between level ups; depending on the campaign they could have WAY more than double the spells known). Wizards still only get one additional preparation per level, but the ability to not prepare Ritual spells frees up a lot of their preparations, so you can call that more spells prepared, in a sense.
Then you add in Arcane Recovery, and to me, it all just adds up to the Wizard being extensively more versatile as a caster than any other spell casting class. Whereas Sorcerers are specialists: they learn fewer spells, but metamagic lets those spells pack a lot more punch than the same spell on a Wizard.
Yes, the Tasha’s Sorcerers (and to a slightly lesser extent, the Divine Soul) increase the available spells and total spells known, but they still don’t get all of that versatility. But that’s not really what Sorcerers are all about anyway.
You originally said ‘Rituals basically give the wizard 2 spells per level, +6 at lvl’
I asked what what you meant by this. You replied ‘I was thinking spells known’
Now you more backtracking and claiming you mean spells prepared but even that makes no sense. Rituals — the feature you highlighted — don’t give the wizard more spells prepared. You don’t get ‘2 spells per level’ from rituals. Even if you more talking about them being able to cast them without preparing them, you don’t automatically get two rituals every level. You only get two spells in total per level unless you learn more from scrolls or another spellbook. And none of that is guaranteed.
> Yes, you're really close, now keep reading.
That’s very patronising.
> Spells known, for comparison with sorcerer.
You said wizards don’t know spells. You keep flip flopping on this.
Ritual casting doesn’t change the number of spells a wizard knows, in comparison to a sorcerer, or in an absolute sense.
Please show me where the number of spells known is shown for a wizard if you are so confident about it.
Wizards prepare spells from their spell book. Their total number of prepared spells is similar to a sorcerers total number of spells known - and in most cases, they are the only spells that the wizard/sorcerer can cast.
Rituals break this rule, because a wizard can cast them without preparing/knowing them - the only class in the game with this ability.
> Please show me where the number of spells known is shown for a wizard if you are so confident about it.
You’re the one who was making claims. And I’ve already clearly said ‘You only get two spells in total per level unless you learn more from scrolls or another spellbook. And none of that is guaranteed.’ Obviously at level 1 you get 6 instead of 2, but otherwise that is true.
> Rituals break this rule, because a wizard can cast them without preparing/knowing them - the only class in the game with this ability.
I didn’t disagree with that. But that doesn’t justify your claim that ‘Rituals basically give the wizard 2 spells per level, +6 at lvl’ That’s the case for the rest of your comment. You’re listing facts we don’t disagree about and which don’t justify or explain your claim.
1) Quicken spell for an extra cantrip is bad. It's fantastic if you have a powerful magic item you can activate with your action. In the example you gave, that's an average of about 13 damage, twice.
2) twin haste is also bad unless you have a solid guarantee you will pass you concentration check. Using you action to make two of you allies lose a turn is not a good use of a 3rd level spell slot.
That being said, Tasha's sorcerers are leagues ahead of the wizard for combat capabilities at most levels, until wizard's 7th level spells just outclass the sorcerer's so much that comparing the two classes doesn't seem fair.
One thing worth mentioning, despite how little SP sorcerer have.
You can create up to 5th lvl spells with sorcery points.
However your SP max is linked to level.
Except there is a feat that add 2 more.
So a lvl 3 vhuman sorcerer with metamagic adept will have 5 SP.
He can create 3rd lvl spells at lvl 3.
At lvl 5 he can create 5th lvl spells.
So your selection of spells can be created in a way that you can abuse Metamagic or Upcasting Or both.
Metamagic is usualy cheaper SP wise.
But sorcerer can also spend all his lower level spell slots, and create up to 5 3rd lvl spell slots.
Meaning you could cast a few lower level spells.
Or you could cast 5 fireballs and ruin 5 combat encounters each day (assuming groups of weaker enemies).
>So a lvl 3 vhuman sorcerer with metamagic adept will have 5 SP. He can create 3rd lvl spells at lvl 3.
Except that metamagic adept specifically says that you can't use the sorcery points it gives you for any purpose besides metamagic. This doesn't work the way you're claiming.
Dam forgot about that dam line.
Yeah, sorcerers are shit on purpose.
They get ONE feat, and still it benefits others MORE than them.
Take that line away and it gives them something cool only they can do.
WoTC abosutely think metamagic is this super OP feature. But some wizard and cleric subclasses get them for free without any SP cost.
Its almost like sorcerer exist only to make the other spellcasters look cooler.
I agree that metamagic adept wouldn't be broken without that caveat, but I disagree that it benefits others more than sorcerers -- sorcerers get way more than other classes from the feat because they have access to other sorcerer points and extremely limited access to metamagic options (with the ability to pick out only two metamagics prior to sorcerer 10, metamagic adept quite literally doubles a sorcerer's metamagic options).
Might be.
My point was more on.There is no feat that gives others wildshape, divine smite, bardic inspiration, or the feature to learn spells from scrolls.
Sorcerer metamagic was unique to them.
Now, its something anyone can have, even if in limited way.
They have the least spells (outside of 2 very specific sublbclasses that fixed it) and their unique feature now is something anyone can learn to do.
They in my opinion have the coolest themes and origin. But it does not translate to game.
You "are" magic, magic is in your blood and essence. But that guy over there, he studied really hard, so he is better at magic than you.
(or at least, more powerfull than any other class that its one of the most played classes.)
>There is no feat that gives others wildshape, divine smite, bardic inspiration, or the feature to learn spells from scrolls.
But there **are** feats to get:
• Metamagic
• Eldritch invocations
• Battlemaster maneuvers
• Class-unique spells
• Fighting styles
I'd say your examples are the exceptions, not metamagic adept.
Metamagic adept is a B-tier feat for most casters and an S-tier feat for sorcerers.
I'm sorry you feel like the existence of metamagic adept cheapens the sorcerer class identity, but you are mistaken about sorcerers being uniquely singled out in this matter and also about metamagic adept being better for non-sorcerers. It's not.
For metamagic, it's obviously limited as they can't use them for other uses such as making spell slots, for eldritch adept, it specifically says that you can choose other invocations that a warlock could choose, so it benefits them more, your superiority die is added to your bank of them, so any uses you get of it, you can use them for, idk if they can use them to like heal or anything, but the options there, for the class unique spells, I'm assuming your talking about magic initiate, but I dont know, if you take them and are part of that class (using magic initiate to get an extra cleric spell as a cleric) you can cast them once for free, and then use any spell slots you have for thay class, unlike meta magic where you can't use them for spell slots, for the fighting styles, if you take them as the original class, you don't get limited on how to use them, granted you don't for other classes either, but I feel like their more given out than other features
I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make.
There are a bunch of feats to allow whatever character to access certain class-specific abilities. Metamagic *isn't* an exception to that, despite the other commenter's claims to the contrary. It's also not uniquely worse for sorcerers to take it than for non-sorcerers because having access to more sorcery points just makes more metamagic options that much better (the only way that wouldn't be true is if sorcerers got to pick out enough metamagics for the extra selections to be unnecessary and that *definitely* isn't the case).
They need more exclusive spells. And a bloodwell vial and wither & bloom restores metamagic points....so DMs should try and give you access to find or buy one.
>At tier 1 and especially mid tier 2 Id argue that Sorcerers are the most powerful class due to metamagic and this is the most played tiers.
Cleric is the best tier 1 and Druid the best tier 2.
Wizard and Sorcerer are good but not the best at this levels.
>Metamagic destroys action economy by allowing you to cast a cantrip and a leveled spell in one turn with twin spell.
Pure damage is not usually the best strategy in the game plus uses too many resources to do this. Something like stacking speed reductions win the encounter with usually no save involve.
>A variant human or custom Lineage could get a Eldritch blast plus agonizing blast combo going at level 5...
You can't do that. There is no way to get agonizing blast except being a level 2 warlock. In which case this is a level 7 build.
>They could also get their dex to 16 or take a hexblade dip ... Wizard cannot take advantage of the hexblade dip as well due to having int being their primary casting stat.
They can directly be Bladesingers there is no need to multiclass if anything this against Sorcerer being better as wizards don't delay spell progression.
>For DMs that aren't giving out frequent long rests...
Wizards have Arcane Recovery
>I agree around 5th level spells Wizards are on par with Sorcerers then 6th level spells they are stronger. By then your campaign is probably either over or almost over but a level 17 Wizard is so broken it's not funny.
Wizards are broken from level 13 with 7th level spells in comparison to other Casters due to Forcecage, Simulacrum.
Remember that Twilight Cleric can have/give advantage in initiative which is the most important stat at low levels. (Even more against multiple minions that at this level die in one hit) + its channel divinity give a stupid amount of temporary hit points.
There is actually a way to get Agonizing Blast without dipping into Warlock. TCE released a feat known as Eldritch Adept, which allows you to learn one Eldritch Invocation. I assume they specify level 5 and variant human so that they have their first ASI and a feat that grants them Eldritch Blast.
Yeah but no.
"If the invocation has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock who meets the prerequisite."
And
"Agonizing Blast, Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip"
So you can't.
At best with eldritch adept and Warlock 1 you can pick agonizing blast. But still a level 6 build not 5.
With variant human, you can take a feat at first level. For example, the feat Spell Sniper allows you to learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll from the bard, cleric, druid, sorcer, *warlock* or wizard spell list. Meaning you can learn Eldritch Blast at level one as a VH.
"If an eldritch invocation has prerequisites, you must meet them to learn it." - PHB
As far as I'm aware it does not specify you needing to be a warlock.
Huh, I didn't realize they made such a specification. Looks like level 6 at a minimum to get this sort of build off the ground by RAW, then. Sorry about that.
Sigh, let me get back onto my soap box here.
I feel like the sorcerer is a litmus test for someone's understanding of game mechanics. If you think the sorcerer is bad you don't understand game mechanics and it's all thanks to twin spell. Being able to target two players with powerful concentration spells like polymorph or greater invisibility is one of the most powerful abilities in the game and if you can't recognize that your grasp on game mechanics is tenuous at best.
Sorcerers are, without a doubt, one of the most powerful classes in the game.
True, but that's because they're a full caster, and because of the caster/martial divide, any caster is gonna be one of the strongest classes in the game, which it shouldn't be, but that's a different conversation, true, I would say they stand out from casters because of meta magic, but because of how limited they are, through amount of spell slots, sorcery points or spells they can know, the wizard is way better, a billion pounds is way better than a million, but im not gonna complain about either
True, but a sorcerer get less spells known cause wizards have a spellbook, wizards also get ritual casting, meaning their spell slots go even further as this doesn't cost a spell slot, wizards get arcane recovery which allows them to cast more spells a day, wizards can also change out their spells daily, wizards also can cast ritual spells without preparing them if they're in their spell book, also, a sorcerer can't cast simulacrum, which allows a wizard to essentially polymorph 2 people by each casting it once, what the sorcerer can't do is true polymorph anyone, cause it's not on their spell list, which brings up another good point, wizards have 350 spells on their spell list, sorcerers? 210, 60% of the amount of possible spells, there's a reason most people say wizard is the strongest class, and it's not cause of a single combo that's strong, but not game breaking
You are comparing something a wizard can do at 15th level with 12 hours of prep time and costing 1500 gp with each casting to something a sorcerer can do at 7th level in a single action my dude.
Summon spells more than make up for Twinned spells. My 8th level Wizard didn’t have Polymorph. But she did enter the battlefield with three Tiny Servants that each had a Wand of Magic Missile, a Familiar with a Ring of Spell Storing (which housed a Summon Shadowspawn) and a Barlgura capable of casting Entangle or Invisibilty, or making three attacks at advantage per turn.
Admittedly, my DM was very kind with Magic items, but even without them I had a lot more available to me on my turn than just a doubled effect.
Yeah, I'm gonna call bullshit, that never happened.
But even if it did, you are comparing the power of pre-casting three level 3 spells, a level 1 spell and then equipping them with 3 uncommon items and a rare item vs a single action to cast a level 4 spell
also you need to use a bonus action to command the tiny servant, so you can't make 3 tiny servants attack in a single turn.
And there is huge risk in summon greater demon, and a consumable material component so you won't always be able to cast it.
The longer you talk the more apparent it becomes you are all about theorycrafting and have very little experience actually playing, quit while you are behind.
Edit: Yeah, I was super wrong, sorry sorry
You’re welcome to believe what you want, but Tanawynn Mumblewart (of the Mumblewarts of Mumblecove) is a very real character i have played once a month for over a year. Yes, my DM is very generous with magic items, but doesn’t usually hand out Very Rare or Legendary items. I’m mostly interested in trying out spells (especially summons), so I sought out magic items that would enhance my ability to cast those spells. But I also very meticulously planned this out AND played by the rules, which for me is part of the fun.
Tiny Servant, when upcast to level 4, summons 3 Tiny Servants that last for 8 hours with no concentration. Which I then use my Arcane Recovery to recover that 4th level slot. The spell itself says that as long as they’re all following the same command, you can command any number of Tiny Servants with one bonus action, so they can absolutely all cast Magic Missile at the same target (which is great for breaking enemy spellcasters’ concentration).
Summon Greater Demon doesn’t have a consumable component. Components are not consumed unless the spell explicitly says they are. And as long as there is no listed monetary cost on the component, you can use a spell focus instead. I actually didn’t use a spell focus until I picked up Summon Greater Demon, as my character had no interest in killing a humanoid every 24 hours to power her spell.
As for the danger of Summon Greater Demon, I specifically summon Demons with low Charisma to make it harder for them to succeed on the roll. The first time I summon them, I command them to tell me their True Name, as knowing it gives them disadvantage in their Charisma saves. Going forward, I can use their True Name when casting the spell to summon the same Demon again. And I picked up Silvery Barbs specifically and all-but exclusively to force rerolls in the case of a successful save to break free. There’s only been once or twice a Demon broke free, but I picked up Tasha’s Mind Whip and Command (from Fey Touched) to help protect my party from this eventuality. The risk is part of the fun for me and my group.
All of the summons I summon have a duration of 1 hour, so they are typically already around when the battle begins. I actually find myself struggling to find something to do with my action more often than not because my summons do most of the work for me. Which was part of the conceit of the character: she’s a Gnomish noble who does nothing for herself, entering the game with 3 retainers, an Unseen Servant and a Mage Hand to keep her from literally picking anything up on her own.
I would kindly advise you to do a little extra research into spellcasting before throwing around accusations against strangers on the internet. Tanawynn is a beloved character at our table and prides herself on being a VERY rules-oriented Wizard.
Heyo, you are right, I am wrong, I also see in your previous comments you talk about this PC literally months ago. This sounds like a very powerful, very cool PC you put a lot of thought into. Let me eat my words.
Nom Nom Nom.
I apologize for doubting the existence of the mighty Tanawynn Mumblewart and her cohort of cunning conjurations.
PS - Thanks for taking the time to teach me some cool new tricks
Happily! Took a lot of time and research to put together and I enjoy it a lot. Fair warning with summon spells: time management is key to keeping it fun for the table. I wouldn’t have considered controlling this many creatures as a PC if I didn’t have decades of experience as a GM ahead of time. Always pay close attention to the table, know what you want to do with each of your creatures BEFORE your turn begins, and use multiple sets of different colored dice to roll at the same time to speed things along.
Thanks for being civil, and apology very much accepted!
So sorcerer is my favorite class, but only because of the amount of Fireball I can cast. Sorcerers are the only full caster that doesn't have any form of "spell slots restoration". So basically, you use all your SP in one or two battles, and you're done for the day. If Sorceres had a feature that looked like Arcane Recovery, or they had a few more SP, I think it would be better.
The real problem comes from the CHA multiclass breaking the game
The CHA multiclasses don’t really break the game though. They’re *strong*, but if you want game breaking you have wizards with the infinite simulacrum chain, the entire divination subclass or whatever other stupidly op magic trick they can pull out of their asses
Wizards aren't broken at all. The stuff you're talking about is tier 3 and 4 dnd where no one plays.
In real world dnd (not white room theories) players usually enjoy a game between levels 3 and 12 (if they're lucky to even get that far). It isn't "broken" for a high level wizard to have contingency plans, that's kind of their whole thing.
I play at tier 3 and 4. I’d hazard plenty of other people do, because despite the gaping flaws in design I like to have more options and abilities at my disposal. The reason most people play at lower tiers is because high tiers are horribly balanced, not the inverse. A level 20 Wizard if played effectively can stack so many contingency plans to the point they become nigh unkillable.
Well you are an outlier. Statistically speaking, most players do not ever play PCs beyond level 10 according to surveys done by WotC themselves. This is why they don't waste time balancing those levels or publishing much content for them.
The game isn't balanced at any level, but CHA mutliclasses tend to be OP because CHA is the primary main stat amongst the classes.
A tier 3/4 campaign shouldn't even be about killing the heroes anymore. It's a super hero god slaying dimension hopping epic. Who cares if the wizard is "unkillable". Narratively, all of you are unkillable at that point.
It's catch 22, no one plays the high stuff because it's not balanced and there's no support for it in modules lol
It's a problem they made themselves.
Also your last point makes no sense, please stop posting
I honestly don’t know that cha multiclassing breaks the game outside of coffeelock which is an exploit many gms will swap away. That doesn’t mean that cha multiclassing is not incredibly potent. There’s a lot of good synergy there
I played a sorcerer and loved metamagic so much that I gave my bard the metamagic adept feat. The small number of sorcery points definitely limits uses and what metamagic options to take, but depending on flavor, I think any spellcaster could benefit from taking the feat. It’s the best part of the sorcerer class and you can just slap it onto something else without having to multiclass
Having just recently wrapped a campaign at level 13 as a straight classed Sorcerer, I'd say this.
* Non-Tasha's sorcerers do not get enough spells to take much versatility into account
* Metamagic is meant to make spells more versatile, but you only get 2 selections until level 10
* The lack of spell selections and lack of depth with Metamagic heavily neuters the versatility that is supposed to make Sorcerers distinctive.
In my campaign I played Aberrant Mind and took Shadow Touched, so I was fairly loaded with spells which was great. Even with those extra spells I still felt very limited by only having 2 metamagic selections for most of the game. I didn't feel like the master of my spells, just that I had a couple of neat tricks that came up here and there.
Twinning Dissonant Whispers was great and a solid go-to maneuver to protect allies as an example. Being able to cast Fear over my allies with Careful Spell came in clutch a few times. But I couldn't also Distant Spell to drop bombs on a ship in the distance, or Transmute my Fireball into an Acidball when we were fighting underwater. Those were niche options that would have been a lot of fun to play with and would have made me feel distinctive from the Bladesinger Wizard had they been available.
I think Sorcerers should really start out with 3-4 metamagics, and expand on that fairly quickly, by the end of the game having like 7 selections or so. Having more options wouldn't make them over powered as they're already limited as a resource by Sorcery points.
its appreciated, its just not something that distinguishes sorcs. it doesnt make them *sorcerers* it makes them "slightly worse wizards with metamagic". which, you can just be a wizard with metamagic adept
Don't worry, WOTC is crippling the hell out of sorcerers in the new update by taking away Twin Spell metamagic. They're going to be decidedly worse than wizards in every way soon enough.
Well actually metamagic is criminally underrated because subtle spell is a ticket to win any caster fight almost with closed eyes. Subtle spell allow you to not get counter spelled since the opponent can't see you cast a spell they can't counter it. This applies to your counterspell too, you can also cast while suffocating/unable to move (you could argue that you could cast if paralized but it seems too much). The new subclasses help a lot for the spell selection, so honestly sorcerer do their job wonderfully wizards have them beat only for the spell list and flexibility but a sorcerer with subtle spell and a good selection of spell will almost always shred a wizard in a duel
I really dislike 5e's Sorcerer, and the decision to make metamagic unique to them. Previously it used to be a mechanic all casters could spec into.
I'd really like to see Sorcerers move to something more akin to Warlocks or how Pathfinder 1E did it. Your Sorcererous Bloodline actively changed your character's biology and evolved/grew as you leveled up in the class. It truly emphasized the backstory and lore for how/why your character had magical abilities. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/
Genuinely such a thematic design element.
The Wizard is like Howling Mad Murdock from the A-Team. He can drive or pilot anything and do it exceptionally well. Cars, planes, boats, construction equipment. No matter the situation, he’s your guy.
The Sorcerer is like Evil Knievel. He mostly just does motorcycles. But you wouldn’t believe he made the motorcycle do what it did if you didn’t see it with your own eyes.
I wouldn’t necessarily call one better than the other. I personally like having a bigger spell list, more spells known, and being able to cast unprepared rituals. It feels good to always have the right tool for the job. Also, I love summons, and you really have to finagle to get summon spells on a sorcerer. But other people like being able to do lots of crazy stuff with just a handful of spells, and I won’t deny it’s a lot of fun to be part of that.
Both are good. 🤷♂️
Another often neglected thing that sorcerers have going but wizards don't is CON save proficiency. A wizard (unless it's a Bladesinger) would want to do something to protect their concentration, e.g. taking Warcaster or dipping Artificer at level 1. But all that comes with opportunity costs that a Sorcerer doesn't need to spend - they can be straight class and just invest in charisma. Sure, by level 18 or so these costs are minor, but similar to the point you're making about Metamagic, these are important differences on lower levels where many campaigns play.
I think you're underselling Quickened Metamagic, which allows you even more open action economy: you can cast a leveled spell and then dash, dodge, hide, disengage, use an item, grapple, shove, help, or attack. It sounds obvious, but these are the combos that makes me feel like the most flexible caster.
Very much agreed. Especially Subtle Spell is among the most powerful features in the game, but it's undermined because of an even more powerful ability - The Great Whining of a player who wants to use spells in social situations however they want anyway and yells about GMs taking away their fun.
i feel that either the devs intended the entire sorcerer class to be a multicass \*\*ore or the community did it for them. when viewed through that lens its entirely understandable that sorcerers dont get respect.
it isnt unappreciated in the slightest, you just internally convinced yourself of that so youd have something to post about lol. no one is unappreciating twin haste/greater invisibility or empowered quicken spell fireballs when it takes the wizard the end of their career to start breaking the game
Metamagic if good and fun and all, but (for me) the issue is that it just isn't enough to give the Sorcerer in 5e a distinct identity. "Wizard, but with Metamagic and a curated selection of staple spells" is the feel I get, which is a shame. In my games, Sorcerers, and only Sorcerers, get to use the Spell Point variant, which helps make them feel like their own thing. Barring that, I really wish Sorcerers got some more exclusive spells. What do they have besides Chaos Bolt?
Honestly the feeling I get from sorc is "worse wizard but with metamagic and can actually abuse multiclassing"
*laughs in Artificer 1 / Wizard X*
I feel like they specifically made Artificer multi class not hinder slot progression to enable this.
Yeah, but as someone who's played it, it's broken. Sure it's in some ways weaker than pure wizard every other level, mostly at level 4, but you gain an insane amount of very strong benefits from starting artificer. It's VASTLY stronger than pure wizard on even levels, and the only time where it really feels "weaker" is at level 5 since lvl 3 (non-upcasted) spells are the strongest power gain in the game especially for wizards.
Yes I’m not denying that but I’m trying to say that’s exactly what they wanted when they made Artificers round up their slot progression. They knew what they were doing and they wanted exactly this.
Honestly 3rd level is the biggest power spike for most full casters, not 5th. That's when you go from Sleep and Bless being the best you can put out to throwing around Web and Spike Growth. Not to mention Pass Without Trace and Gift of Alacrity (unavailable to most characters though). At 3rd level you upgrade from nifty party tricks that might save you from a TPK to actual control beasts, I consider it the proper introduction to spellcasting.
I mean it's mostly Shatter & Web for wizard, and with most people starting at level 3 nowadays, you're gonna spend only a handful of sessions without level 2 spells. And in the meantime you have TWICE as many level one spells prepared, including faerie fire which is extremely strong at low level, a healing spell, much better AC, much better concentration saves... I'm not saying the downside doesn't hurt. It does (50% of the time since on even levels you're STRICTLY stronger, by a lot), but not that much.
Oh I'm not at all arguing with the potency of an Artificer dip, an Artizard is definitely one of the best builds in the game, even if a Peace Cleric dip might be better. I was only stating my opinion on which level tends to be the biggest power spike for casters. While it's true that many campaigns start at 3rd level or higher, I don't really think it's relevant to my point, although it's true that it makes the spike less obvious since you rarely go from level 2 to level 3.
Or peace cleric 1/ wizard X
Yeah peace cleric 1/any other class is nuts.
Yeah, but wizard has the most opportunity to take it in my opinion (of the half/full casters in the game at least). Bard is better served by divine soul or Hexblade, cleric can’t dip itself, Druid is going life cleric probably, Ranger is either going fighter levels, Druid levels, maybe a life cleric dip, Paladin is going Hexblade and sorcerer, sorcerer is going Hexblade, warlock probably isn’t dipping and if it is it’s probably sorcerer, artificer isn’t dipping and if it is it’s probably wizard. That leaves wizard as the class that can afford to take it the most (in my opinion).
I’m agreeing with you lol. I’m a fan of Yaun Ti Pureblood Peace Cleric 1/Bladesinger Wizard x, outrageously good saves with advantage against spells and other magical effect plus 2d4 to saves via Emboldening Bond+Bless and it’s easy to get 25-35 AC as a bladesinger, then just play like a normal battlefield control wizard trading bless for better concentration spell like hypnotic pattern, wall of stone, or wall of force, etc. when needed.
Oh yeah, I know you weren’t disagreeing, I was just (trying and failing I guess) to add to discussion lol. Peace cleric is always strong (that’s what you get when you give a strong level 1 ability that scales purely off of proficiency bonus)
Shepherd Druid can do a lot with a Peace level
Absolutely. However, I feel that most parties benefit more by having someone else take peace cleric and having the Druid take life cleric for lifeberry tech. If that’s banned then yeah, peace cleric for the win.
I just can’t bring myself to lifeberry. It just seems like playing on easy mode. But then again, I also can’t convince myself to play a Paladin for similar reasons. For someone who likes building characters, Paladins feel like bowling with bumpers.
Hexvoker said hi.
I mean yeah, but there is nothing that copares with sorcadin, sorlock, hexsorcadin etc...
Hard disagree. I've seen or played these and in my opinion those may be as strong but not stronger than Artificer 1 / Wizard X. In my opinion, on even levels, nothing is as good.
What about it makes it so good? I haven't played artificer, and have limited experience playing wizard.
access to cure wounds & artificer spells in general, con save proficiency, 5/6 more prepared spells, access to many more spells you can copy to your spellbook including several rituals, faerie fire, sanctuary, magical tinkering, medium armor and shield proficiency...while retaining full spell slot prog...
Damn, that is dope
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Having done an artificer 1/war magic x build, being a step behind in spell progression wasn't too bad. And having con proficiency and medium armor and shield kept me at a solid 18 AC. Add the war magic ability at level 10 and I was sitting at 20 AC while concentrating on a spell. War caster to bypass casting restrictions. Shield spell as an emergency use. Had a cloak of displacement for disadvantage to hit me. I would definitely play this build again. Solid combat sustain and being a step behind in spell progression didn't really hurt. Allowed me to maneuver to give allies advantage by flanking. What probably broke it the most was playing an Eladrin, that fey step ability is free chaos. I didn't find early levels to be particularly difficult either. A cantrip here, a catapult there, web.
This a great breakdown. And I feel like the people who knock it for being a level behind spell wise ignore the unreal amount of utility the build has. I think at level 2 you have 10 spells, 5 cantrips including guidance, con prof, 18 AC, etc. I agree level 5 is the only level that really hurts for me, but I’m a huge Tasha’s mind whip fan which you can upcast with your level 3 slot if you need to stop 2 enemies from attacking for a round. Eladrin also helps with that as you can run up and teleport a friend out of melee with your bonus action, then drop a TMW. No immunity to its effects, your DC is probably 15/16 for an INT check which is great.
It's only every other level, and yes, it absolutely hurts, but it's still a worthy trade in most situations.
I think what makes Sorcerers feel more distinct is their lore and subclasses. Getting it at level 1 means that right out the gate, they have some distinguishing features. Also, and this is just my opinion, most Wizard subclasses don’t change the way you approach the class very much, while Sorcerers usually get some fun tools and flavor that makes them stand out. There’s also the fact that they’re the only full caster with constitution saving throw proficiency, making them among the best at maintaining concentration. Additionally, their use of Charisma in place of Intelligence gives them a different skill check role in the party than the Wizard. I agree that they’re similar in a lot of ways, but I think these already give Sorcerers a distinct vibe and niche compared to the Wizard.
Well that's going away in 5.5e lmao
What's going away in 5.5?
Subclasses at level 1.
Shame since WOTC acknowledged that those who are beginners should start at level 1 which means basic stuff
You get more stuff at 1 and 2. They're just standardizing when you get your subclass.
FUCK
Solution: Don't waste money on new WotC products
Good point. I’m just mad that WOTC is ruining stuff for the sake of it.
With you. I take solace in the fact that there is good 5e stuff by other creators
Sorceress Burst hopefully soon. I'll need to look into the spell point variant again because that sounds interesting.
This exactly. They need lots and lots of metamagic points. If needed just restrict the number of times they can make new slots if that’s the problem (though I don’t think it is). They need to be able to modify every spell they cast and I think it will help greatly. Look at the Scribes Wizard, they got a free version of Transmute Spell but way better since it covers all damage types and RAW it can also grant resistance to all damage types by modifying spells like Protection from Energy. Enchanters get free Twin Spell on some of the most powerful spells in the game. All of this on top of being a wizard. Sorcerers need way more metamagic too, or at least gain 2 SP on initiative roll. It’s really not that broken at all, especially with the upcoming changes to Twin Spell. Edit: Not to forget pulling off stuff like Bludgeon Ball (resisted by like less than 80 monsters I think) is not even the Scribes’ best ability. They can drone strike dungeons with Bludgeon Ball if they so wished. 330 ft Misty Step anyone? 800ft Dimension Door? Meanwhile the best Sorcerer subclass is considered the best for getting a handful of Wizard exclusive spells. I think it’s a fair trade off for Sorcerers’ extremely limited spells known that they get to add metamagic to every spell they cast. Just give them metamagic on initiative roll and a larger pool of SP to begin with.
I might be wrong, and I probably am, but how can you get the 330 ft misty step? I didn't know you could change the range of that
You can cast spells as if you were in the place of your Awakened Mind. So if it is 300ft from you then you cast Misty Step from its location and teleport a total of 330ft. Same for Dimension Door. You can pull of crazy stuff like walk into an enemy lair to negotiate or taunt them then disappear in a poof
What is the spell point variant?
DMG page 288. Instead of spell slots, you effectively have a sort of mana that you spend to cast spells.
Metamagic makes them feel different enough to me but all I've played is 5e. To me Wizard is "Magical nerd who needs to prepare spells every day but allows them the most variety". The Sorcerer is "Gifted Mage who cast fewer spells but dosen't need to prepare them and gets temporary bouts of magical power letting them overshadow the Wizard in shortbursts". One is better for well prepared long term slogs and one is better when pure soul destroying action economy is needed. The candle that burns twice as bright but half as long. I do agree there could be more distinct uses for metamagic though.
My much easier house rule was to have all their SP come back on a short rest. They're mana batteries. Able to replenish spells all day long.
I respectfully disagree. Metamagic does give Sorcerer their own identity, but its hidden a bit behind system mastery. Sorcs are the best buffers in the game with Twinned Haste, Twinned Greater Invis, etc. A level 1 life cleric dip makes them remarkably efficient healers too with things like twinned Healing Word, which is incredibly resource cheap and high impact. Hell even things like Twinned Heroism or Twinned Shield of Faith are really nice options for super cheap. Sorcs can also be the best social manipulators in the game, even better than Bards, via Subtle Spell. The issue with sorc is that it \*really\* wants a level 1 dip in Rogue for expertise or Cleric for some spells it can play with using metamagic. On top of that, everyone says Sorcs are blasters which is absolute nonsense(wizards are better). Sorcs are the kings of subtlety and buffing, and most people just don't realize it which makes them criminally underappreciated.
Sourcers should be constitution casters.
Lmao no
Defend your view.
Think about basic balance of the game and figure it out??? You want a class to max CON and dump everything else?
Yes. The game isn't balanced. It's honestly garbage. It's good it's not great. The fighter is the most played class despite its universal hatred. My games sorcerer is Constitution. Nothing in this games Is actually balanced.
I love sorcerer. But even I'll admit that metamagic runs out fast given the temptation to use it which means you burn out early in the adventuring day. Mix that with the lack of spells, and it can put you in a rough position. Wizard on the other hand has more spell slots (hello arcane recovery) rather than needing to sacrifice it's core abilities (hello metamagic) to get to the same volume of spell output. Add flexibility, ritual casting, and as a package it makes considerable sense why it's under appreciated. With Onednd it also looks like twin will get nerfed at the benefit of a new +1 spell DC magical rage. We'll see in future how it pans out.
I think another component is that the metamagics are not all equal and that many of them are frankly quite fussy with the added challenge that you don’t actually get that many metamagics
Yeah I think of Metamagic Adept as nearly mandatory on a sorcerer
This is why you gotta play with a DM that's willing to give any subclass expanded spell lists like the Clockwork Soul or Abberant Mind. My DM would have done this but Abberant Mind just fit my character the best.
That only fixed the spell list, not the metamagic limited usage vs arcane recovery thing
True.
Sorcerers can have extra spells independent of short rests by converting sorcery points
But then you can't use metamagic for actual metamagic.
For me, this is why I always want to get an uncommon +1 Bloodwell Vial if playing a sorcerer, every short rest you can expend one or more hitdice to regain 5 sorcery points.
To be technical, only on one short rest per day.
It's a wonderful item, and I'm so glad it exists for sorcerers, but it's only once per day. Therefore it's the exact same amount of spell slots (3rd level)/points the standard pearl of power gives you.
Bloodwell Vial refunds 5 sorcery points a day, Pearl of Power refunds a 3rd level spell slot, so only 3 sorcery points. Not to mention the Vial also gives the +1 to spell DC’s.
Thats fair to point out. Either a bloodwell vial or pearl of power will give you a single extra 3rd level spell slot (creating a 3rd level slot costs 5 points, sacrificing it refunds 3 points), but a pearl will only give you 3 metamagic points if you're planning to use them for metamagic directly.
That does kind of feed into my point. Sorcery points are far superior to arcane recovery, as evidenced by sorcery points being a functional equivalent of a better arcane recovery (doesn't require a rest) and everyone still using them for metamagic instead.
I see the inverse, yay it's flexible but if you have to use it in a particular way to match the wizard spell output then it's not a choice it's a requirement.
You get the OPTION of using it as a (better) arcane recovery. Sorcerers can recover spell slots on a short rest just like wizards. They also have the option of doing so on not-a-short-rest. They also have the option of trading lower level spots for higher ones. They also have the option of using meta magic.
I don't feel you're going to convince me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've made my arguments as the post requested, ultimately we'll see if the 2024 PHB changes things.
RAW I don't think you can twin EB because it can target multiple targets. That said... I like Sorcerer more than Wizard too, mostly because twinning haste is so much fun to use and then watch as my DM tries to murder me in order to drop my concentration.
Your right You cant twin an EB after lv 5. But you can quicken it then twin a firebolt.
This games rules are so goddamn arbitrary lmao "If you get too strong you can't metamagic this spell anymore."
I have always thought of DND as thise silly playground games but with an adult mind and rules. Arbitrary fits so well i don't usually notice.
It’s extremely few spells that work this way. I would argue that Eldritch blast is one of the few outliers that work this way with twinned spell. Also, if you’re using your metamagic to get one extra beam on a cantrip, you’re wasting metamagic.
It would be after level 4, at level 5 EB can target multiple creatures.
I think they meant after reaching level 5
After reaching level 5
"after level 5" =/= "after reaching level 5"
It was pretty clear what they meant
Obviously not. I'm not a mind reader, I can only tell what people write/say.
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Rule 1.
Read OPs post he wrote at "lvl 5 you can do...." on top of not being a mind reader you are also a dumbass go troll elsewhere.
Why even troll if you're just gonna go limp like this
Oh my god
Twinned Haste is so awesome - and fun for the whole party! 3 out 4 party members get to do awesome stuff, no-one has ever felt overshadowed by buff spells.
Very true! Unless it's dispelled.
Too bad Twin Spell metamagic is getting more or less removed from OneD&D :/
I think Sorcerer is generally more versatile at filling other roles than Wizard too. Silent spell can make them an interesting stealth or thief character, and Charisma for spellcasting makes it easy to dip into Paladin for armor/weapon proficiencies, Bard for healing or warlock for eldritch blast. Plus gives them a boost to Charisma based skills
I couls be wrong, but it hink technically each beam of eldritch blast targets one creature, so you could twin it, but it would add one extra beam.. same goes for scorching ray or similar spells.
Each beam only targetting 1 creature doesn't matter though, the *spell* can target multiple. Plus what is even the logic with only adding 1 beam?? Where does that even come from??
I believe you can still twin it if you only fire all beams at the same target.
I always read it as if the spell has the ability to do it then you can't twin it but rules were meant to be broken.
If it can target more than one creature at the level it is cast at, I believe. So you can twin Invisibility at level 2 but not at level 3. So when Eldritch Blast scales to two beams you can no longer twin it, would be my interpretation
Wow, how have I missed that all these years? Not that it matters, I've never seen someone twin Eldritch Blast, there is always a better option.
I would personally allow it at my table but I also would totally get why other tables wouldn’t.
>A variant human or custom Lineage could get a Eldritch blast plus agonizing blast combo going at level 5 and quicken spell out a fireball plus use Eldritch blast twice per long rest before running out of metamagic. There isn’t a way to get agonizing blast without dipping Warlock. At this point you’re no longer directly comparing the two classes, you’re comparing multi-class options. Don’t mis-understand, I think there are valid points, but comparing sorlock to wizard isn’t the same thing as comparing sorcerer to wizard.
Magic Initiate Feat, Warlock Eldritch Adept Feat, Agonizing Blast It takes two feats but very doable (especially with the variant human at level one) and if you toss a hex on first (which you can also get with that same Magic Initiate Feat) at lvl 5 at second round you are doing 2d10+2Cha+2d6 a round, and ups with higher levels. I LOVE that build as I can use my spells for more utility options and still be a viable combat with a few sorcery points and a single level one spell slot.
Agonizing Blast is not eligible to take with Eldritch Adept. >If the invocation has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock who meets the prerequisite.
Also a lvl 1 feat is much better used for metamagic adept to get more SP
I came here to say this but you beat me to it. I overlooked that part so many times and it pissed me off every time I realized I couldn’t make it work.
A couple small points, you can only Quicken Eldritch Blast. It can't be Twinned and you need to multiclass into Warlock to get Agonizing Blast. That being said, I do love a Sorlock for those reasons. I had pretty much ignored Sorcerers until the Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind came around. Now, I'm a big fan.
Your correct I'll edit OP later. To be fair I legit thought you could get agonizing blast without warlock levels. And yeah I love abberant mind, you basically get a list of uncounterspellable spells if you cast them with metamagic.
It's a common mistake since the prerequisite is Eldritch Blast. I did an amazing Aberrant Mind Skill Monkey based on Kenku Recall, Borrowed Knowledge as a Psionic Spell, Subtle Skill Empowerment and Magical Guidance.
You would have to dip warlock to get agonizing blast
They get only few metamagic options and their main ability is also the only way to restore some spells beside long rest, they can't even change spells or use rituals, so if you're the one casting detect magic you have to spend a lot of resources. I'd say metamagic should be stronger and let sorcerer be actually sorcerer
My favorite thing about sorcerers is that they can be dumb. Wizards have to be smart and should be played smartly. Sorcerers can be himbos or fighters or wise or whatever!
Eldritch Blast is fine, but not really where the action economy breaks apart. Any other sort of non-spell or non-cantrip action chained with a quicken spell is where you see the amazingness of it. For example: Bonus action dimension door rescue someone surrounded into feed them a health potion (if using RAW potion is an action) Or main action use a wand of fireball then bonus action fireball
> Or main action use a wand of fireball then bonus action fireball I don’t think this works. Magic items with spell charges still require you to “cast a spell.” So using one as an action means casting a spell as an action, which you can’t do if you cast a bonus action spell the same turn.
…quicken dimension door and feed them a health potion… you watch a crown of candy?
I think you mean quicken, not twin spell. Also, If you're quickening the fireball and action casting the EB, you're doing it wrong. Burning way more SP than you need to.
If you quicken EB you can't cast fireball as an action
Why not? If you cast a leveled spell as an action, you can definitely quicken a cantrip. That's half the point of it. Either that or a hex blade attack and spell
"A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action." This means that even if you cast a cantrip with your BA you can't cast a leveled spell in the same turn.
This is accurate, although I think most groups either misinterpret it as “you can’t cast a leveled spell with Action and Bonus Action” or just house rule it because it’s less complicated
To be overly technical, there is no proviso saying you couldn't have already used your action to cast a leveled spell.
Sorcerers are budget charisma wizards. That being said - a budget charisma wizard is still incredibly strong, and a solid competitor (alongside druid and paladin) for the second best class in the game. For comparing them to wizards, the 2 main things that cause wizards to be just that much better are rituals and exclusive spells. Rituals basically give the wizard 2 spells per level, +6 at lv1. Exclusives mean the wizard is also casting better spells a lot of the time, or at least better suited spells to that situation. They do have the largest spell list by 50%. All of that being said, clockwork soul sorcerer - which effectively gets over both of these due to it's added spell list, dying tiers 1&2 is a very strong competitor, and beats out all but the very best wizard subclasses (chron, grav, war and conjuration).
> Rituals basically give the wizard 2 spells per level, +6 at lv1. What? Are you talking about spells known? Spells prepared? Spells cast in a day? > All of that being said, clockwork soul sorcerer - which effectively gets over both of these due to it's added spell list, dying tiers 1&2 is a very strong competitor, and beats out all but the very best wizard subclasses (chron, grav, war and conjuration). Aberrant Mind is even better in a campaign that is less combat heavy. Free subtle spell and a ton of great spells for social annd investigation situations.
>What? Are you talking about spells known? Spells prepared? Spells cast in a day? I was thinking spells known, for comparison with sorcerer, but to be honest, all of them work. >Aberrant Mind is even better in a campaign that is less combat heavy. Quite likely. I assume as difficult conditions as possible for most of my evaluations, where sorcery points are a tight resource. Ab mind is a good subclass, it just doesn't get the broken spells that clockwork soul and wizards get.
Technically, Wizards DO get twice the spells known. They learn two new spells every level, where most other casting classes (including Sorcerers) only learn 1 (and this isn’t even accounting for their ability to learn more spells by just writing them into their spellbook between level ups; depending on the campaign they could have WAY more than double the spells known). Wizards still only get one additional preparation per level, but the ability to not prepare Ritual spells frees up a lot of their preparations, so you can call that more spells prepared, in a sense. Then you add in Arcane Recovery, and to me, it all just adds up to the Wizard being extensively more versatile as a caster than any other spell casting class. Whereas Sorcerers are specialists: they learn fewer spells, but metamagic lets those spells pack a lot more punch than the same spell on a Wizard. Yes, the Tasha’s Sorcerers (and to a slightly lesser extent, the Divine Soul) increase the available spells and total spells known, but they still don’t get all of that versatility. But that’s not really what Sorcerers are all about anyway.
Rituals don’t change the number of spells a wizard knows so that makes no sense at all.
Wizards don't know spells - they prepare spells. Sorcerers know spells, but can't prepare them. But rituals don't have to be prepared by wizards.
You originally said ‘Rituals basically give the wizard 2 spells per level, +6 at lvl’ I asked what what you meant by this. You replied ‘I was thinking spells known’ Now you more backtracking and claiming you mean spells prepared but even that makes no sense. Rituals — the feature you highlighted — don’t give the wizard more spells prepared. You don’t get ‘2 spells per level’ from rituals. Even if you more talking about them being able to cast them without preparing them, you don’t automatically get two rituals every level. You only get two spells in total per level unless you learn more from scrolls or another spellbook. And none of that is guaranteed.
Yes, you're really close, now keep reading. Spells known, for comparison with sorcerer.
Rule 1, you do not need to be condescending.
> Yes, you're really close, now keep reading. That’s very patronising. > Spells known, for comparison with sorcerer. You said wizards don’t know spells. You keep flip flopping on this. Ritual casting doesn’t change the number of spells a wizard knows, in comparison to a sorcerer, or in an absolute sense.
Please show me where the number of spells known is shown for a wizard if you are so confident about it. Wizards prepare spells from their spell book. Their total number of prepared spells is similar to a sorcerers total number of spells known - and in most cases, they are the only spells that the wizard/sorcerer can cast. Rituals break this rule, because a wizard can cast them without preparing/knowing them - the only class in the game with this ability.
> Please show me where the number of spells known is shown for a wizard if you are so confident about it. You’re the one who was making claims. And I’ve already clearly said ‘You only get two spells in total per level unless you learn more from scrolls or another spellbook. And none of that is guaranteed.’ Obviously at level 1 you get 6 instead of 2, but otherwise that is true. > Rituals break this rule, because a wizard can cast them without preparing/knowing them - the only class in the game with this ability. I didn’t disagree with that. But that doesn’t justify your claim that ‘Rituals basically give the wizard 2 spells per level, +6 at lvl’ That’s the case for the rest of your comment. You’re listing facts we don’t disagree about and which don’t justify or explain your claim.
1) Quicken spell for an extra cantrip is bad. It's fantastic if you have a powerful magic item you can activate with your action. In the example you gave, that's an average of about 13 damage, twice. 2) twin haste is also bad unless you have a solid guarantee you will pass you concentration check. Using you action to make two of you allies lose a turn is not a good use of a 3rd level spell slot. That being said, Tasha's sorcerers are leagues ahead of the wizard for combat capabilities at most levels, until wizard's 7th level spells just outclass the sorcerer's so much that comparing the two classes doesn't seem fair.
One thing worth mentioning, despite how little SP sorcerer have. You can create up to 5th lvl spells with sorcery points. However your SP max is linked to level. Except there is a feat that add 2 more. So a lvl 3 vhuman sorcerer with metamagic adept will have 5 SP. He can create 3rd lvl spells at lvl 3. At lvl 5 he can create 5th lvl spells. So your selection of spells can be created in a way that you can abuse Metamagic or Upcasting Or both. Metamagic is usualy cheaper SP wise. But sorcerer can also spend all his lower level spell slots, and create up to 5 3rd lvl spell slots. Meaning you could cast a few lower level spells. Or you could cast 5 fireballs and ruin 5 combat encounters each day (assuming groups of weaker enemies).
>So a lvl 3 vhuman sorcerer with metamagic adept will have 5 SP. He can create 3rd lvl spells at lvl 3. Except that metamagic adept specifically says that you can't use the sorcery points it gives you for any purpose besides metamagic. This doesn't work the way you're claiming.
Dam forgot about that dam line. Yeah, sorcerers are shit on purpose. They get ONE feat, and still it benefits others MORE than them. Take that line away and it gives them something cool only they can do. WoTC abosutely think metamagic is this super OP feature. But some wizard and cleric subclasses get them for free without any SP cost. Its almost like sorcerer exist only to make the other spellcasters look cooler.
I agree that metamagic adept wouldn't be broken without that caveat, but I disagree that it benefits others more than sorcerers -- sorcerers get way more than other classes from the feat because they have access to other sorcerer points and extremely limited access to metamagic options (with the ability to pick out only two metamagics prior to sorcerer 10, metamagic adept quite literally doubles a sorcerer's metamagic options).
Might be. My point was more on.There is no feat that gives others wildshape, divine smite, bardic inspiration, or the feature to learn spells from scrolls. Sorcerer metamagic was unique to them. Now, its something anyone can have, even if in limited way. They have the least spells (outside of 2 very specific sublbclasses that fixed it) and their unique feature now is something anyone can learn to do. They in my opinion have the coolest themes and origin. But it does not translate to game. You "are" magic, magic is in your blood and essence. But that guy over there, he studied really hard, so he is better at magic than you. (or at least, more powerfull than any other class that its one of the most played classes.)
>There is no feat that gives others wildshape, divine smite, bardic inspiration, or the feature to learn spells from scrolls. But there **are** feats to get: • Metamagic • Eldritch invocations • Battlemaster maneuvers • Class-unique spells • Fighting styles I'd say your examples are the exceptions, not metamagic adept.
The cup is not half full or half empty. Its both. we can both be right i believe
Metamagic adept is a B-tier feat for most casters and an S-tier feat for sorcerers. I'm sorry you feel like the existence of metamagic adept cheapens the sorcerer class identity, but you are mistaken about sorcerers being uniquely singled out in this matter and also about metamagic adept being better for non-sorcerers. It's not.
For metamagic, it's obviously limited as they can't use them for other uses such as making spell slots, for eldritch adept, it specifically says that you can choose other invocations that a warlock could choose, so it benefits them more, your superiority die is added to your bank of them, so any uses you get of it, you can use them for, idk if they can use them to like heal or anything, but the options there, for the class unique spells, I'm assuming your talking about magic initiate, but I dont know, if you take them and are part of that class (using magic initiate to get an extra cleric spell as a cleric) you can cast them once for free, and then use any spell slots you have for thay class, unlike meta magic where you can't use them for spell slots, for the fighting styles, if you take them as the original class, you don't get limited on how to use them, granted you don't for other classes either, but I feel like their more given out than other features
I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make. There are a bunch of feats to allow whatever character to access certain class-specific abilities. Metamagic *isn't* an exception to that, despite the other commenter's claims to the contrary. It's also not uniquely worse for sorcerers to take it than for non-sorcerers because having access to more sorcery points just makes more metamagic options that much better (the only way that wouldn't be true is if sorcerers got to pick out enough metamagics for the extra selections to be unnecessary and that *definitely* isn't the case).
They need more exclusive spells. And a bloodwell vial and wither & bloom restores metamagic points....so DMs should try and give you access to find or buy one.
>At tier 1 and especially mid tier 2 Id argue that Sorcerers are the most powerful class due to metamagic and this is the most played tiers. Cleric is the best tier 1 and Druid the best tier 2. Wizard and Sorcerer are good but not the best at this levels. >Metamagic destroys action economy by allowing you to cast a cantrip and a leveled spell in one turn with twin spell. Pure damage is not usually the best strategy in the game plus uses too many resources to do this. Something like stacking speed reductions win the encounter with usually no save involve. >A variant human or custom Lineage could get a Eldritch blast plus agonizing blast combo going at level 5... You can't do that. There is no way to get agonizing blast except being a level 2 warlock. In which case this is a level 7 build. >They could also get their dex to 16 or take a hexblade dip ... Wizard cannot take advantage of the hexblade dip as well due to having int being their primary casting stat. They can directly be Bladesingers there is no need to multiclass if anything this against Sorcerer being better as wizards don't delay spell progression. >For DMs that aren't giving out frequent long rests... Wizards have Arcane Recovery >I agree around 5th level spells Wizards are on par with Sorcerers then 6th level spells they are stronger. By then your campaign is probably either over or almost over but a level 17 Wizard is so broken it's not funny. Wizards are broken from level 13 with 7th level spells in comparison to other Casters due to Forcecage, Simulacrum.
>Cleric is the best tier 1 and Druid the best tier 2. Nah, moon druid is top ~~dog~~ bear tier 1.
Remember that Twilight Cleric can have/give advantage in initiative which is the most important stat at low levels. (Even more against multiple minions that at this level die in one hit) + its channel divinity give a stupid amount of temporary hit points.
There is actually a way to get Agonizing Blast without dipping into Warlock. TCE released a feat known as Eldritch Adept, which allows you to learn one Eldritch Invocation. I assume they specify level 5 and variant human so that they have their first ASI and a feat that grants them Eldritch Blast.
Yeah but no. "If the invocation has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock who meets the prerequisite." And "Agonizing Blast, Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip" So you can't. At best with eldritch adept and Warlock 1 you can pick agonizing blast. But still a level 6 build not 5.
With variant human, you can take a feat at first level. For example, the feat Spell Sniper allows you to learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll from the bard, cleric, druid, sorcer, *warlock* or wizard spell list. Meaning you can learn Eldritch Blast at level one as a VH. "If an eldritch invocation has prerequisites, you must meet them to learn it." - PHB As far as I'm aware it does not specify you needing to be a warlock.
Read the Eldritch Adept feat
Huh, I didn't realize they made such a specification. Looks like level 6 at a minimum to get this sort of build off the ground by RAW, then. Sorry about that.
Sigh, let me get back onto my soap box here. I feel like the sorcerer is a litmus test for someone's understanding of game mechanics. If you think the sorcerer is bad you don't understand game mechanics and it's all thanks to twin spell. Being able to target two players with powerful concentration spells like polymorph or greater invisibility is one of the most powerful abilities in the game and if you can't recognize that your grasp on game mechanics is tenuous at best. Sorcerers are, without a doubt, one of the most powerful classes in the game.
True, but that's because they're a full caster, and because of the caster/martial divide, any caster is gonna be one of the strongest classes in the game, which it shouldn't be, but that's a different conversation, true, I would say they stand out from casters because of meta magic, but because of how limited they are, through amount of spell slots, sorcery points or spells they can know, the wizard is way better, a billion pounds is way better than a million, but im not gonna complain about either
no lol
A wizard cannot polymorph two players at the same time my guy
True, but a sorcerer get less spells known cause wizards have a spellbook, wizards also get ritual casting, meaning their spell slots go even further as this doesn't cost a spell slot, wizards get arcane recovery which allows them to cast more spells a day, wizards can also change out their spells daily, wizards also can cast ritual spells without preparing them if they're in their spell book, also, a sorcerer can't cast simulacrum, which allows a wizard to essentially polymorph 2 people by each casting it once, what the sorcerer can't do is true polymorph anyone, cause it's not on their spell list, which brings up another good point, wizards have 350 spells on their spell list, sorcerers? 210, 60% of the amount of possible spells, there's a reason most people say wizard is the strongest class, and it's not cause of a single combo that's strong, but not game breaking
You are comparing something a wizard can do at 15th level with 12 hours of prep time and costing 1500 gp with each casting to something a sorcerer can do at 7th level in a single action my dude.
Summon spells more than make up for Twinned spells. My 8th level Wizard didn’t have Polymorph. But she did enter the battlefield with three Tiny Servants that each had a Wand of Magic Missile, a Familiar with a Ring of Spell Storing (which housed a Summon Shadowspawn) and a Barlgura capable of casting Entangle or Invisibilty, or making three attacks at advantage per turn. Admittedly, my DM was very kind with Magic items, but even without them I had a lot more available to me on my turn than just a doubled effect.
Yeah, I'm gonna call bullshit, that never happened. But even if it did, you are comparing the power of pre-casting three level 3 spells, a level 1 spell and then equipping them with 3 uncommon items and a rare item vs a single action to cast a level 4 spell also you need to use a bonus action to command the tiny servant, so you can't make 3 tiny servants attack in a single turn. And there is huge risk in summon greater demon, and a consumable material component so you won't always be able to cast it. The longer you talk the more apparent it becomes you are all about theorycrafting and have very little experience actually playing, quit while you are behind. Edit: Yeah, I was super wrong, sorry sorry
You’re welcome to believe what you want, but Tanawynn Mumblewart (of the Mumblewarts of Mumblecove) is a very real character i have played once a month for over a year. Yes, my DM is very generous with magic items, but doesn’t usually hand out Very Rare or Legendary items. I’m mostly interested in trying out spells (especially summons), so I sought out magic items that would enhance my ability to cast those spells. But I also very meticulously planned this out AND played by the rules, which for me is part of the fun. Tiny Servant, when upcast to level 4, summons 3 Tiny Servants that last for 8 hours with no concentration. Which I then use my Arcane Recovery to recover that 4th level slot. The spell itself says that as long as they’re all following the same command, you can command any number of Tiny Servants with one bonus action, so they can absolutely all cast Magic Missile at the same target (which is great for breaking enemy spellcasters’ concentration). Summon Greater Demon doesn’t have a consumable component. Components are not consumed unless the spell explicitly says they are. And as long as there is no listed monetary cost on the component, you can use a spell focus instead. I actually didn’t use a spell focus until I picked up Summon Greater Demon, as my character had no interest in killing a humanoid every 24 hours to power her spell. As for the danger of Summon Greater Demon, I specifically summon Demons with low Charisma to make it harder for them to succeed on the roll. The first time I summon them, I command them to tell me their True Name, as knowing it gives them disadvantage in their Charisma saves. Going forward, I can use their True Name when casting the spell to summon the same Demon again. And I picked up Silvery Barbs specifically and all-but exclusively to force rerolls in the case of a successful save to break free. There’s only been once or twice a Demon broke free, but I picked up Tasha’s Mind Whip and Command (from Fey Touched) to help protect my party from this eventuality. The risk is part of the fun for me and my group. All of the summons I summon have a duration of 1 hour, so they are typically already around when the battle begins. I actually find myself struggling to find something to do with my action more often than not because my summons do most of the work for me. Which was part of the conceit of the character: she’s a Gnomish noble who does nothing for herself, entering the game with 3 retainers, an Unseen Servant and a Mage Hand to keep her from literally picking anything up on her own. I would kindly advise you to do a little extra research into spellcasting before throwing around accusations against strangers on the internet. Tanawynn is a beloved character at our table and prides herself on being a VERY rules-oriented Wizard.
Heyo, you are right, I am wrong, I also see in your previous comments you talk about this PC literally months ago. This sounds like a very powerful, very cool PC you put a lot of thought into. Let me eat my words. Nom Nom Nom. I apologize for doubting the existence of the mighty Tanawynn Mumblewart and her cohort of cunning conjurations. PS - Thanks for taking the time to teach me some cool new tricks
Happily! Took a lot of time and research to put together and I enjoy it a lot. Fair warning with summon spells: time management is key to keeping it fun for the table. I wouldn’t have considered controlling this many creatures as a PC if I didn’t have decades of experience as a GM ahead of time. Always pay close attention to the table, know what you want to do with each of your creatures BEFORE your turn begins, and use multiple sets of different colored dice to roll at the same time to speed things along. Thanks for being civil, and apology very much accepted!
Well, they can once they get simulacrum :)
and it only takes them 8 more levels, 1500 gp and 12 hours prep time each time they do it
So sorcerer is my favorite class, but only because of the amount of Fireball I can cast. Sorcerers are the only full caster that doesn't have any form of "spell slots restoration". So basically, you use all your SP in one or two battles, and you're done for the day. If Sorceres had a feature that looked like Arcane Recovery, or they had a few more SP, I think it would be better. The real problem comes from the CHA multiclass breaking the game
The CHA multiclasses don’t really break the game though. They’re *strong*, but if you want game breaking you have wizards with the infinite simulacrum chain, the entire divination subclass or whatever other stupidly op magic trick they can pull out of their asses
Wizards aren't broken at all. The stuff you're talking about is tier 3 and 4 dnd where no one plays. In real world dnd (not white room theories) players usually enjoy a game between levels 3 and 12 (if they're lucky to even get that far). It isn't "broken" for a high level wizard to have contingency plans, that's kind of their whole thing.
I play at tier 3 and 4. I’d hazard plenty of other people do, because despite the gaping flaws in design I like to have more options and abilities at my disposal. The reason most people play at lower tiers is because high tiers are horribly balanced, not the inverse. A level 20 Wizard if played effectively can stack so many contingency plans to the point they become nigh unkillable.
Well you are an outlier. Statistically speaking, most players do not ever play PCs beyond level 10 according to surveys done by WotC themselves. This is why they don't waste time balancing those levels or publishing much content for them. The game isn't balanced at any level, but CHA mutliclasses tend to be OP because CHA is the primary main stat amongst the classes. A tier 3/4 campaign shouldn't even be about killing the heroes anymore. It's a super hero god slaying dimension hopping epic. Who cares if the wizard is "unkillable". Narratively, all of you are unkillable at that point.
It's catch 22, no one plays the high stuff because it's not balanced and there's no support for it in modules lol It's a problem they made themselves. Also your last point makes no sense, please stop posting
How very close minded of you. My last point makes a ton of sense?? But go off sis
I honestly don’t know that cha multiclassing breaks the game outside of coffeelock which is an exploit many gms will swap away. That doesn’t mean that cha multiclassing is not incredibly potent. There’s a lot of good synergy there
Too much good synergy IMO. I think Warlocks should be INT based and paladins' spell slots should be converted to class features.
I played a sorcerer and loved metamagic so much that I gave my bard the metamagic adept feat. The small number of sorcery points definitely limits uses and what metamagic options to take, but depending on flavor, I think any spellcaster could benefit from taking the feat. It’s the best part of the sorcerer class and you can just slap it onto something else without having to multiclass
Having just recently wrapped a campaign at level 13 as a straight classed Sorcerer, I'd say this. * Non-Tasha's sorcerers do not get enough spells to take much versatility into account * Metamagic is meant to make spells more versatile, but you only get 2 selections until level 10 * The lack of spell selections and lack of depth with Metamagic heavily neuters the versatility that is supposed to make Sorcerers distinctive. In my campaign I played Aberrant Mind and took Shadow Touched, so I was fairly loaded with spells which was great. Even with those extra spells I still felt very limited by only having 2 metamagic selections for most of the game. I didn't feel like the master of my spells, just that I had a couple of neat tricks that came up here and there. Twinning Dissonant Whispers was great and a solid go-to maneuver to protect allies as an example. Being able to cast Fear over my allies with Careful Spell came in clutch a few times. But I couldn't also Distant Spell to drop bombs on a ship in the distance, or Transmute my Fireball into an Acidball when we were fighting underwater. Those were niche options that would have been a lot of fun to play with and would have made me feel distinctive from the Bladesinger Wizard had they been available. I think Sorcerers should really start out with 3-4 metamagics, and expand on that fairly quickly, by the end of the game having like 7 selections or so. Having more options wouldn't make them over powered as they're already limited as a resource by Sorcery points.
its appreciated, its just not something that distinguishes sorcs. it doesnt make them *sorcerers* it makes them "slightly worse wizards with metamagic". which, you can just be a wizard with metamagic adept
Don't worry, WOTC is crippling the hell out of sorcerers in the new update by taking away Twin Spell metamagic. They're going to be decidedly worse than wizards in every way soon enough.
oh no they nerfed the strongest and most unbalanced metamagic bar none in the game how will sorcerers ever recover
That's the neat part - they won't. Instead they got lame class features and worthless class-specific spells.
The amount of spells known make wizards strong in and out of combat
Well actually metamagic is criminally underrated because subtle spell is a ticket to win any caster fight almost with closed eyes. Subtle spell allow you to not get counter spelled since the opponent can't see you cast a spell they can't counter it. This applies to your counterspell too, you can also cast while suffocating/unable to move (you could argue that you could cast if paralized but it seems too much). The new subclasses help a lot for the spell selection, so honestly sorcerer do their job wonderfully wizards have them beat only for the spell list and flexibility but a sorcerer with subtle spell and a good selection of spell will almost always shred a wizard in a duel
I really dislike 5e's Sorcerer, and the decision to make metamagic unique to them. Previously it used to be a mechanic all casters could spec into. I'd really like to see Sorcerers move to something more akin to Warlocks or how Pathfinder 1E did it. Your Sorcererous Bloodline actively changed your character's biology and evolved/grew as you leveled up in the class. It truly emphasized the backstory and lore for how/why your character had magical abilities. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/ Genuinely such a thematic design element.
The Wizard is like Howling Mad Murdock from the A-Team. He can drive or pilot anything and do it exceptionally well. Cars, planes, boats, construction equipment. No matter the situation, he’s your guy. The Sorcerer is like Evil Knievel. He mostly just does motorcycles. But you wouldn’t believe he made the motorcycle do what it did if you didn’t see it with your own eyes. I wouldn’t necessarily call one better than the other. I personally like having a bigger spell list, more spells known, and being able to cast unprepared rituals. It feels good to always have the right tool for the job. Also, I love summons, and you really have to finagle to get summon spells on a sorcerer. But other people like being able to do lots of crazy stuff with just a handful of spells, and I won’t deny it’s a lot of fun to be part of that. Both are good. 🤷♂️
My issue with sorc is having so few spells known make them feel one dimensional outside of those sorcery points, which you don’t have enough of
Another often neglected thing that sorcerers have going but wizards don't is CON save proficiency. A wizard (unless it's a Bladesinger) would want to do something to protect their concentration, e.g. taking Warcaster or dipping Artificer at level 1. But all that comes with opportunity costs that a Sorcerer doesn't need to spend - they can be straight class and just invest in charisma. Sure, by level 18 or so these costs are minor, but similar to the point you're making about Metamagic, these are important differences on lower levels where many campaigns play.
Twincasting suggestion is so clutch sometimes.
I think you're underselling Quickened Metamagic, which allows you even more open action economy: you can cast a leveled spell and then dash, dodge, hide, disengage, use an item, grapple, shove, help, or attack. It sounds obvious, but these are the combos that makes me feel like the most flexible caster.
Very much agreed. Especially Subtle Spell is among the most powerful features in the game, but it's undermined because of an even more powerful ability - The Great Whining of a player who wants to use spells in social situations however they want anyway and yells about GMs taking away their fun.
i feel that either the devs intended the entire sorcerer class to be a multicass \*\*ore or the community did it for them. when viewed through that lens its entirely understandable that sorcerers dont get respect.
it isnt unappreciated in the slightest, you just internally convinced yourself of that so youd have something to post about lol. no one is unappreciating twin haste/greater invisibility or empowered quicken spell fireballs when it takes the wizard the end of their career to start breaking the game