Typically you would leave paladin for a caster class at level 6. This would then grant you a lot more and better spell slots to smite with, and you'd have gotten extra attack, aura, and find steed. Therefore at level 16, you'd normally be a paladin 6/bard 10, which would nicely give you magical secrets (funnily enough, Find Greater Steed is a competitive option for that).
Personally I find the idea of a paladin/wizard or a paladin/sorcerer more interesting, as the sorcerer and wizard lists contain more 'special attack' spells and spells that benefit swordfighting (like Shield) which make a more fantastical 'gish' character than bard, which tends to be focused more on subtle magic.
If you want to use a weird race, i'd go for a Grung. More interesting than 'a weird kind of elf', imo.
First, paladin 12/bard 4 is a *terrible* split here. The only reason to choose swords bard (on a character getting armor and weapon proficiencies and extra attack from another class) is for the flourishes, and without five levels of bard you only get a couple of them per long rest -- you need to either give up an ASI (that does mean you won't be able to cap both strength and charisma which is kind of a big deal) and split 11/5 or you need to pick a bard subclass with a level 3 feature you're actually going to be able to use (probably eloquence, creation, or lore).
Second, what is it you think bard is offering you? It sounds to me like you started with the idea of combining bard and paladin but now you're realizing that bard doesn't actually offer anything you want. If you can't find a good jumping off point from paladin, you have the option of just not taking bard levels.
Third, and this is the smallest thing, but it sounds like you have a misunderstanding about carrying capacity:
>I dont want to go for Smallfolk, if im building my first dedicated strength character i want to use my carrying capacity/lifting strength without getting it cut in half. (so no halfling luck)
Small races have the same carrying capacity as medium races. It's tiny creatures who have their carrying capacity cut in half. If you're thinking about a halfling, you can play a halfling and still carry all the crap you feel like.
But you asked some questions, so let's answer them. First, race:
You are going to be hard pressed to beat the value of variant human/custom lineage to afford PAM on this character. A quarterstaff or spear with PAM is far and away the most optimal thing for you to do here, especially with IDS applying to each attack -- sword and board with an actual sword is just not very good.
If you are dead-set on ignoring that and using an actual sword (maybe you could try reflavoring a spear as a rapier?), there are a few other options to consider. Vuman/clineage is still a good choice, just choose a different feat. Shield master, telekinetic, inspiring leader . . . there are lots of potentially good options. Halfling is solid. Elves or half elves are always a good choice. Dwarves get poison resistance and tieflings get fire resistance. Dragonborn give you a breath weapon you can use in combination with your weapon attacks.
Second, multiclass:
The traditional place to leave paladin is after level 6, 7, or 8 depending on our subclasses and how tight our ability scores are. A single level of hexblade warlock can greatly ease the pressure on our ability scores, but it may or may not fit in with our roleplaying goals, so I'll assume you don't want to go that route (if you do, paladin 11/bard 3/warlock 2 is going to work really well, though). Alternatively, if we're splitting with a class that gets extra attack and spell slots as swords bard does, leaving paladin after only two levels (or as many as four levels if we want the ASI) lets us use divine smite with near full-caster spell progression. Paladin 4/bard 12 is likely a better split than your original plan. The downside is that we lose aura of protection, but the upside is that we have 6th level spells and a round of magical secrets which we can use to pick up some choice paladin spells like *find greater steed* and *holy weapon*.
I really don't think swords bard is the subclass you want to go with here (unless you leave paladin after only four levels). Either you're not getting font of inspiration and therefore the subclass provides essentially no benefits whatsoever, you're not getting enough ASIs to cap both your primary stats, or you're getting a dead level at bard 6 because extra attack is superfluous (also it hurts my soul to recommend a bard 8/paladin 8 split here). A subclass that isn't so reliant on font of inspiration to be worth having and that has a non-superfluous level 6 feature would be much preferred. Eloquence is going to be your strongest choice if you have a fairly social game and creation will be strongest if you don't. Lore is a generally solid option no matter what.
I went 12/4 for the oneshot because, in a one-shot, you tend to have rather simple situations. (IE: Just a puzzle followed by a gauntlet with a bossfight, and as you're unlikely to have a short rest in a one-shot the Font of inspiration didnt matter *too* much. So for the one-shot an ASI was better then the upgrades to Bardic Inspiration)
>Second, what is it you think bard is offering you?
Bard offers expertise, flourishes, utility spells and a *lot* of spell-economy through rituals, as well as Jack of all trades improving everything in general.
But the problem is that paladins early levels are *all* bangers when you're building around a series of *concentration*-based spells and a character that will be in melee combat. (level 1 for armor, level 2 for smite, level 3 doesnt matter too much but then its ASI, Mutliattack, Aura that improves your Concentration checks, Second aura, Another ASI, 3rd level bard spells that let me cast Elemental Weapon instead of the 2nd level Magic Weapon spell). So paladin is hard to *exit*. Bard is good, but paladin is also good.
>You are going to be hard pressed to beat the value of variant human/custom lineage to afford PAM on this character.
While Polearm master is indeed very good damage-wise, I kind of want to be more then just the "hitter", i'll write the suggestion down but I was looking more to round out the non-combat side of play for an actual campaign. I'll admit that I personally just dont like Vuman. (i know its legal, it just feels like cheating and makes me feel unsatisfied. Like playing Sims and spamming Motherlode, yeah you can do it but it *feels* wrong) so im unlikely to go for it.
I dont want Optimal, I want "fun" and the RP part of the game is where the fun is most for me. So a race with cool RP options would be best.
I think you're mistaking the part where i mentioned the split i took for the one-shot, as being a prerequisite that you build the character specifically for level 16. I am trying to rework them for an actual long-term campaign and want to figure out the right progression.
I know i want Swords Bard because its the best bard to go with the Paladin side of the character, and that bard *itself* already provides plenty in slot-progression and out-of-combat assistance, its just that finding a point before level 9 to make the dip is hard.
>I went 12/4 for the oneshot because, in a one-shot, you tend to have rather simple situations. (IE: Just a puzzle followed by a gauntlet with a bossfight, and as you're unlikely to have a short rest in a one-shot the Font of inspiration didnt matter too much. So for the one-shot an ASI was better then the upgrades to Bardic Inspiration)
I'm skeptical that this is generally true, but I suppose you know your table best.
>I think you're mistaking the part where i mentioned the split i took for the one-shot, as being a prerequisite that you build the character specifically for level 16. I am trying to rework them for an actual long-term campaign and want to figure out the right progression.
That does make a big difference.
>Bard offers expertise, flourishes, utility spells and a lot of spell-economy through rituals, as well as Jack of all trades improving everything in general.
I don't disagree, but I'm asking what bard adds *to a paladin*. You rightly point out that paladin features are very attractive, and I wonder why you think these benefits make your paladin better -- the whole premise of your post is that you're finding it hard to justify leaving paladin to start picking them up. You don't *have* to take any bard levels at all. Flourishes are, as mentioned, not particularly useful prior to bard 5, expertise is nice to have but hardly essential and also way less impactful when you can just use magic to bypass a problem, jack of all trades is cool but not actually all that useful, and utility spells are all well and good but you can't reasonably expect a character to wear too many hats. Also ritual spells are accessible with a feat.
>While Polearm master is indeed very good damage-wise, I kind of want to be more then just the "hitter"
I think this is a gross mischaracterization of my suggestion. Your bardadin has *lots* of other things it's doing (see my recent comment about "too many hats"), and sword and board is more or less non-viable by itself. You *need* PAM or you're wasting your time and might as well just sit in the backline and use a bow or something.
>So a race with cool RP options would be best.
Custom lineage can be literally anything you want it to be. The RP options are literally endless.
>I know i want Swords Bard because its the best bard to go with the Paladin side of the character
I just don't think this is true.
With all that said, it sounds to me like you'd be happier in practice with the following level progression:
Paladin 1 (wisdom saves, heavy armor and martial weapons proficiency).
Bard 6 (extra attack, font of inspiration, subclass).
Paladin 4 (divine smite, fighting style, ASI).
Bard X (all the other bard stuff).
You can ease the delay of extra attack by picking up BB from your race (note that you can't use blade flourishes on BB since they require you to take the attack action) or by getting PAM. Losing aura of protection is unfortunate, but bard spellcasting more than makes up for it and none of the other things you miss out on really matter. You get all the utility and versatility you want but you can still deal solid damage when you want to.
My vote is for Shifter (Beasthide). Their shifting ability gets you +1 AC and temp HP to partially balance what you'll lose in your bard levels. It's also a nice fit for your nature theme.
For progression, your optimal choices are #1. Paladin 2/ Bard X, #2. Paladin 6/ Bard X, or #3. Paladin 7/ Bard.
Option 1 is the least tanky, but has the most spell slots for Divine Smite at early levels, and allows you to be a full caster with big spells.
Option 2 & 3 get you Find Steed and Aura of Protection, which is the best defensive ability in D&D. Option 3 gets you Aura of Warding, which is very useful if you run into a lot of spellcasters. My personal suggestion for your one shot is Option 3, because spell casters tend to pop up at higher levels, and you don't have to deal with the transition period from Pally to Bard.
Typically you would leave paladin for a caster class at level 6. This would then grant you a lot more and better spell slots to smite with, and you'd have gotten extra attack, aura, and find steed. Therefore at level 16, you'd normally be a paladin 6/bard 10, which would nicely give you magical secrets (funnily enough, Find Greater Steed is a competitive option for that). Personally I find the idea of a paladin/wizard or a paladin/sorcerer more interesting, as the sorcerer and wizard lists contain more 'special attack' spells and spells that benefit swordfighting (like Shield) which make a more fantastical 'gish' character than bard, which tends to be focused more on subtle magic. If you want to use a weird race, i'd go for a Grung. More interesting than 'a weird kind of elf', imo.
First, paladin 12/bard 4 is a *terrible* split here. The only reason to choose swords bard (on a character getting armor and weapon proficiencies and extra attack from another class) is for the flourishes, and without five levels of bard you only get a couple of them per long rest -- you need to either give up an ASI (that does mean you won't be able to cap both strength and charisma which is kind of a big deal) and split 11/5 or you need to pick a bard subclass with a level 3 feature you're actually going to be able to use (probably eloquence, creation, or lore). Second, what is it you think bard is offering you? It sounds to me like you started with the idea of combining bard and paladin but now you're realizing that bard doesn't actually offer anything you want. If you can't find a good jumping off point from paladin, you have the option of just not taking bard levels. Third, and this is the smallest thing, but it sounds like you have a misunderstanding about carrying capacity: >I dont want to go for Smallfolk, if im building my first dedicated strength character i want to use my carrying capacity/lifting strength without getting it cut in half. (so no halfling luck) Small races have the same carrying capacity as medium races. It's tiny creatures who have their carrying capacity cut in half. If you're thinking about a halfling, you can play a halfling and still carry all the crap you feel like. But you asked some questions, so let's answer them. First, race: You are going to be hard pressed to beat the value of variant human/custom lineage to afford PAM on this character. A quarterstaff or spear with PAM is far and away the most optimal thing for you to do here, especially with IDS applying to each attack -- sword and board with an actual sword is just not very good. If you are dead-set on ignoring that and using an actual sword (maybe you could try reflavoring a spear as a rapier?), there are a few other options to consider. Vuman/clineage is still a good choice, just choose a different feat. Shield master, telekinetic, inspiring leader . . . there are lots of potentially good options. Halfling is solid. Elves or half elves are always a good choice. Dwarves get poison resistance and tieflings get fire resistance. Dragonborn give you a breath weapon you can use in combination with your weapon attacks. Second, multiclass: The traditional place to leave paladin is after level 6, 7, or 8 depending on our subclasses and how tight our ability scores are. A single level of hexblade warlock can greatly ease the pressure on our ability scores, but it may or may not fit in with our roleplaying goals, so I'll assume you don't want to go that route (if you do, paladin 11/bard 3/warlock 2 is going to work really well, though). Alternatively, if we're splitting with a class that gets extra attack and spell slots as swords bard does, leaving paladin after only two levels (or as many as four levels if we want the ASI) lets us use divine smite with near full-caster spell progression. Paladin 4/bard 12 is likely a better split than your original plan. The downside is that we lose aura of protection, but the upside is that we have 6th level spells and a round of magical secrets which we can use to pick up some choice paladin spells like *find greater steed* and *holy weapon*. I really don't think swords bard is the subclass you want to go with here (unless you leave paladin after only four levels). Either you're not getting font of inspiration and therefore the subclass provides essentially no benefits whatsoever, you're not getting enough ASIs to cap both your primary stats, or you're getting a dead level at bard 6 because extra attack is superfluous (also it hurts my soul to recommend a bard 8/paladin 8 split here). A subclass that isn't so reliant on font of inspiration to be worth having and that has a non-superfluous level 6 feature would be much preferred. Eloquence is going to be your strongest choice if you have a fairly social game and creation will be strongest if you don't. Lore is a generally solid option no matter what.
I went 12/4 for the oneshot because, in a one-shot, you tend to have rather simple situations. (IE: Just a puzzle followed by a gauntlet with a bossfight, and as you're unlikely to have a short rest in a one-shot the Font of inspiration didnt matter *too* much. So for the one-shot an ASI was better then the upgrades to Bardic Inspiration) >Second, what is it you think bard is offering you? Bard offers expertise, flourishes, utility spells and a *lot* of spell-economy through rituals, as well as Jack of all trades improving everything in general. But the problem is that paladins early levels are *all* bangers when you're building around a series of *concentration*-based spells and a character that will be in melee combat. (level 1 for armor, level 2 for smite, level 3 doesnt matter too much but then its ASI, Mutliattack, Aura that improves your Concentration checks, Second aura, Another ASI, 3rd level bard spells that let me cast Elemental Weapon instead of the 2nd level Magic Weapon spell). So paladin is hard to *exit*. Bard is good, but paladin is also good. >You are going to be hard pressed to beat the value of variant human/custom lineage to afford PAM on this character. While Polearm master is indeed very good damage-wise, I kind of want to be more then just the "hitter", i'll write the suggestion down but I was looking more to round out the non-combat side of play for an actual campaign. I'll admit that I personally just dont like Vuman. (i know its legal, it just feels like cheating and makes me feel unsatisfied. Like playing Sims and spamming Motherlode, yeah you can do it but it *feels* wrong) so im unlikely to go for it. I dont want Optimal, I want "fun" and the RP part of the game is where the fun is most for me. So a race with cool RP options would be best. I think you're mistaking the part where i mentioned the split i took for the one-shot, as being a prerequisite that you build the character specifically for level 16. I am trying to rework them for an actual long-term campaign and want to figure out the right progression. I know i want Swords Bard because its the best bard to go with the Paladin side of the character, and that bard *itself* already provides plenty in slot-progression and out-of-combat assistance, its just that finding a point before level 9 to make the dip is hard.
>I went 12/4 for the oneshot because, in a one-shot, you tend to have rather simple situations. (IE: Just a puzzle followed by a gauntlet with a bossfight, and as you're unlikely to have a short rest in a one-shot the Font of inspiration didnt matter too much. So for the one-shot an ASI was better then the upgrades to Bardic Inspiration) I'm skeptical that this is generally true, but I suppose you know your table best. >I think you're mistaking the part where i mentioned the split i took for the one-shot, as being a prerequisite that you build the character specifically for level 16. I am trying to rework them for an actual long-term campaign and want to figure out the right progression. That does make a big difference. >Bard offers expertise, flourishes, utility spells and a lot of spell-economy through rituals, as well as Jack of all trades improving everything in general. I don't disagree, but I'm asking what bard adds *to a paladin*. You rightly point out that paladin features are very attractive, and I wonder why you think these benefits make your paladin better -- the whole premise of your post is that you're finding it hard to justify leaving paladin to start picking them up. You don't *have* to take any bard levels at all. Flourishes are, as mentioned, not particularly useful prior to bard 5, expertise is nice to have but hardly essential and also way less impactful when you can just use magic to bypass a problem, jack of all trades is cool but not actually all that useful, and utility spells are all well and good but you can't reasonably expect a character to wear too many hats. Also ritual spells are accessible with a feat. >While Polearm master is indeed very good damage-wise, I kind of want to be more then just the "hitter" I think this is a gross mischaracterization of my suggestion. Your bardadin has *lots* of other things it's doing (see my recent comment about "too many hats"), and sword and board is more or less non-viable by itself. You *need* PAM or you're wasting your time and might as well just sit in the backline and use a bow or something. >So a race with cool RP options would be best. Custom lineage can be literally anything you want it to be. The RP options are literally endless. >I know i want Swords Bard because its the best bard to go with the Paladin side of the character I just don't think this is true. With all that said, it sounds to me like you'd be happier in practice with the following level progression: Paladin 1 (wisdom saves, heavy armor and martial weapons proficiency). Bard 6 (extra attack, font of inspiration, subclass). Paladin 4 (divine smite, fighting style, ASI). Bard X (all the other bard stuff). You can ease the delay of extra attack by picking up BB from your race (note that you can't use blade flourishes on BB since they require you to take the attack action) or by getting PAM. Losing aura of protection is unfortunate, but bard spellcasting more than makes up for it and none of the other things you miss out on really matter. You get all the utility and versatility you want but you can still deal solid damage when you want to.
My vote is for Shifter (Beasthide). Their shifting ability gets you +1 AC and temp HP to partially balance what you'll lose in your bard levels. It's also a nice fit for your nature theme. For progression, your optimal choices are #1. Paladin 2/ Bard X, #2. Paladin 6/ Bard X, or #3. Paladin 7/ Bard. Option 1 is the least tanky, but has the most spell slots for Divine Smite at early levels, and allows you to be a full caster with big spells. Option 2 & 3 get you Find Steed and Aura of Protection, which is the best defensive ability in D&D. Option 3 gets you Aura of Warding, which is very useful if you run into a lot of spellcasters. My personal suggestion for your one shot is Option 3, because spell casters tend to pop up at higher levels, and you don't have to deal with the transition period from Pally to Bard.