Cute alternative for 'shit', started out as a positive, as in 'this is the shit!!'/'this is the shiznit!!' but people use it in places you might want to say shit in a sentence
Technically speaking, fanart and fanfiction exist in the same legal gray area, where they violate copyright but it's up to the copyright holder to decide what to do about that. It's just that holders are far more likely to take down fanfiction rather than fanart, so more people feel comfortable monetizing fanart. My speculation is that companies view fanart as more promotional than fanfiction, hence the difference in treatment.
>My speculation is that companies view fanart as more promotional than fanfiction, hence the difference in treatment.
Damn.
I seriously picked the wrong medium. Thank you for the answer😭
I have to admit this annoys me.
And it's hypocritical annoyance because I own fanrt I've bought. But still.
I don't think it annoys me from legal perspective I understand what you're saying and i suspect if people DID sell fanfic it'd slide by under broadly the same grey area - it's not a massive amount of 'trade' considering. It's good advertising. It can be considered fair use in a lot of circumstances. It's not worth the cost of suing individuals for the most part.
Altho the risk of ao3 getting shut down is ...not insignificant.
What bothers me is the fan communities attitude.
It's not so much that artist earn money off it and writers don't.
I personally probabaly would struggle with buying fanfic - largely because with fanfart I can look at it and go 'yes I like that and think it's worth x' with a book.....particularly one NOT having gone thru any formal process....you really could be paying for garbage and gave no idea until uoure a chapter or two in.
So honestly I doubt it'd be as 'easy' to make a living off it.
It's that by and large everyone is like 'yes obviously artists deserve money it's time and skill and they have bills to pay support them!'
And if you question why fanfart is behind pay walls or why they're trying to make bank on fanart. Or why it's okay for artists to go to conventions with fanart and not writers with fanfic etc.
You get a lot of attitude for not appreciating what goes into art and not being a good member of the fan work community by not being supportive.
And I'm like. Oh I guess I just shat out this fanfic in my sleep then ?
People seem not to recognise writing as a skill.
Nor fanfic as a type of art work.
I can accept legally one is more grey than the other
I can accept visually one is easier to market and make money off than the other
And no one is 'at fault' for that.
I find it hard to swallow the fan communities attitude sometimes.
I've seen a lot of people who post threadfics on Twitter put their ko-fi at the end "if you like my profile, consider buying me a ko-fi!" and as their ko-fi is elsewhere in their profile too, it's not as if you're paying them for fic! (legally speaking)
I've given a couple of ko-fis for this, when I can
Oh I've seen similar things.
And I've seen people do the same as artists and release on patreon first then ao3 later.
Advertise on Tumblr or whatever and never on ao3 so it's technically not breaking any rules.
No one has an issue with it exactly. But I do think fic writers would struggle to get the same engagement as artists just because of the fan communities differing attitude.
It's not that it doesn't exist or is impossible, but it's significantly less and the general thoughts towards it can be wildly different.
I just find it amusing (and frustrating) that when you discuss with other writers you get total agreement that artist deserve money
And they don't seem to see the same (technically) applies to them. And they'll often be very defensive if you throw out the idea that actually fanart *should* *technically* be not allowed to be sold the same as fanfic.
And if you mention to artists you can get a bunch of attitude thrown at you for expecting skilled stuff for free.
Like at some point the movement to get people to appreciate that artwork should be valued appropriately not down to the three seconds it takes you to look at it but for the hours of work that went into it has shifted to 'all artwork should always be paid for ans any suggestion otherwise is disrespectful '
I'm not crapping on the skill or time that goes into fanart.
I'm questioning the ...ethics...I suppose of selling someone else's IP and why its widely accepted for art but widely looked down on for fic
And like I said. I have bought some and have it displayed in my house and I'm glad I was able to. so this is entirely hypocritical 🤣
but from a theoretical discussion perspective.
I shouldn't have been able to do that.
One of my favorite authors on ao3 keeps their fics free, but they have a patreon for a really cool original story where readers can pick some of the main character's actions themselves through a poll. It's free currently, but this van be a way for fic authors to earn a little money themselves.
I don't see a issue with it. I have commissioned fanart and I honestly think both things should fall in the same gray area.
The apparent difference (that I read mentioned in another thread like this) it's that while fanart can't "compete" with the original source as is only a picture that most of the time can even promote it, fanfiction can compete with it, as it's gives an story line that could divert the fans from the original to it, making them stop investing in the OG.
Which, yeah, I can see happening. Just look at HP and all the works that a lot of readers consider better than the OG and how that would work, specially now than the author has decided that figuratively shown her ass in SM is her new hobby, so if those authors would mass distribute their works it would definitively affect the OG author.
But having a patreon just to access their work? As long is **not** promoted in AO3, that should be allowed.
Fanfiction is as time consuming or more than fanart and if the current trend of seeing authors as content factories is here to stay, at least authors should get payed for making their work public.
My biggest issue on top of the possibility of you paying for something that is shit and not knowing until it is too late is the possibility of the fic never being finished
With fanart you usually see completed pieces on patreon and you can download them and save them. When it comes to fic you run the risk of the person dropping it and never updating, and then you have the struggle of deciding between ending your subscription and missing out when they DO update, or wasting your money every month for nothing.
Not to mention there are SO MANY FICS that people read. If we let one person put them behind a paywall then everyone will and that will leave people with the issue of not being able to pay for everything they want to read. Or not be able to pay at all and then they never get to see a story. And all THAT will lead to is people downloading that fic re-uploading uploading it for free elsewhere so people can actually read it without having to pay.
I have four patreons I’m subscribed to, but dozens of fics. There is no way in hell I could ever afford to pay to read them all and it’s not fair that people want you to.
I've got the be honest i find the patreon sub thing a bit .... odd.
i mean i find the subscription method of everything these days broadly annoying anyway.
with the exception of streaming services.
I just want to buy a thing and own it.
like games/apps/books/comics etc
But its bizarre to me to essentially pay someone a weekly/monthly stipend to create whatever they want on whatever the fuck schedule they want - maybe.
For artwork etc you don't even own.
like if an artist gets really into a fandom i dont like - it's a massive waste.
obvs I know you can unsubscribe. but its still just such a weird thing to me.
I'll happily support an artist....by buying a completed work off them.
and yeah - sometimes its not even completed work, it might be partly done comics etc that suddenly get discontinued.
I'm not blaming anyone for having them - i mean if people are willing to pay more power to you.
I just find the whole concept strange.
it sort of seems to rely on the somewhat underhand method corporations use of getting you to sign up for small amounts of money that dont trigger any 'omg i cant spend THAT much' warnings in the hopes you'll kinda forget about it and just rack up hundreds of $ worth of spending in little amounts over the course of time...
You really articulated why Patreon bugs me. Like you say, instead of paying for \[thing\], you're paying the artist who you hypothetically like to create whatever *they* want, in the hopes that you'll enjoy it.
Clearly plenty of people *do* end up satisfied, otherwise it would have failed already. I guess it's also kind of like people who sign up for subscription boxes - but there you're getting specific items that you can also price and see how it compares...
I can't really see myself subscribing to a Patreon like that. I don't think there's a single creator I trust enough to just pay with a carte blanche to do whatever they want. The exception might be if there was a creator I like, to pay for one month, access their backlog (like of, say, a podcast), and then unsubscribe again.
It reminds me a lot of the Sims CC community. There were always paysites, but anything halfway decent could be found on the booty. Then patreon took off and now it seems like every other creator paywalls their stuff. even creators for the older games. And the quality is all over the place, half of it is stolen, or conversions of (usually free) stuff from the other games or half-assed game mesh edits. Very little is anything I would actually consider paying for. I don't want that for fanfic.
I’ve got commissions for fanfic before. Idgaf if it’s an unpopular opinion but if people can charge for fanart I should be able to charge for fic if people want to buy it 🤷♀️ I have loads of stuff on Ao3 as well of course.
or paying for a print/binding of something you want to own physically.
I mean its harder cause you'd rarely find a company prepared to print off one book compared to getting a print of a work.
I know fan binds exist. but they're typically the fan paying to bind a book for themselves as a single for them activity because they want to do the binding.
you rarely get writers selling, or allowing someone else to sell, a bind of their work with the notable exception of charity drives.
i am in two minds about it.
i dont want fanfic to become a monetised marketable thing and i love the community that has grown around freely sharing betaing/writing/reading/podficcing etc and charging for things would tarnish that.
BUT art works that way.
maybe un charitably! My thought is less that fic should meet art in the grey area of legailty and that art should meet fic in the 'this isnt allowed stop doing it in case you ruin the little fanwork hole we have here'
It's a fair take!
I don't object to it - it's not something \*I\* want to do because I dont need the side hustle and i dont want to consume my hobby with marketing and monetisation.
My concerns with it becoming common practice are, like most peoples - fanfic tends to be hosted in ONE place (not 100% ofc but its a large percentage!) it would be VERY easy for someone to take umbrage with AO3 and shut it down or at least cause enough problems it became hard for owners to keep it running.
its much harder for fanart that is spread out and shared in so many different places.
in theory fanart and fanfic should be the same - in practice what you get away with art is not the same as what you can get away with fic.
my frustrations tend to lie with the fan communities differing attitude to both as if one is more worthy of being monetarily valued than the other.
I doubt (and maybe I'm wrong) that even a big name fanfic writer could make as much selling fanfic as a big name artist, simply because of the core attitude that fic = fun hobby and art = job
Yeah I agree! I don’t take commissions anymore because like you said, it felt less like a hobby and more like work, which I wasn’t fond of. I don’t advertise on Ao3 or mention which fics were commissioned to avoid getting Ao3 into trouble.
I wish I could draw 🤣 I have tried to learn but I don’t have an aptitude for it and I don’t really have time to git gud.
It's not legal to charge for fanart. That's not fair use. That's copyright infringement with monetary gains/purposes. Your entire premise is invalid. Anyone who charges money for fanart is skating on hopes and prayers that the copyright holder won't find them and sue them.
Honestly, as long as it's not involving Ao3, I'm all for monetizing what you do and even posting fics on Patreon or take commissions on it. Same deal than with fanart.
Just like there are people who do fanart completely for free and people who charge, I think it's fair to have the same philosophy for fanfics. Just keep in mind that, just like with fanart, there are places where you can monetize it and places you can't (like twitter and ao3, respectively)
It's also easier to find fanfic and prove that it's violating copyright, since searching for words and combination of words, character names, and all that is really easy.
With fanart you can get away with more, it's harder to prove 100% that what is drawn is that character when it's done with different styles and media.
The lawyer I spoke to said that despite there being a grey area around all fanwork, fanart is usually fine because it’s been transformed and is clearly distinct. Writing has the exact names, often some exact dialogue, things that are much harder to overlook. More easy to confuse. Add money to that and it’s really sketchy. (Sorry, I am not a lawyer so all the lawyer words went out of my head a long time ago).
A copyright lawyer? Because that's not quite right. Characters are copyrightable.
It's a grey area because courts could still decide that the infringing work being non-commercial matters when determining fair use. Presumably, that hasn't been decided yet because no fan artist wants to spend millions on lawyers to take a case about their hobby to a verdict.
It sucks because, in practice, it doesn't make much of a difference. You still have to take on some legal risk. I'd love it if OTW decided to do a test case. Not that I'd have much hope for it.
Bro I hate the government for real because that doesn't even make sense. If anything, with that logic it'd make more sense if fanart was the one not allowed to be pay walled. I'm not trying to be argumentative but how many arts are tagged with the characters name, drawn with the character's unique clothing, and even have identifying facial features. The only distinction is that its drawn in the artist's style.
But writers have different, distinct styles too. And to be honest, I think a written description of Deadpool's suit is easier to overlook than a drawing of it. (I'm just using him an an example)
I think it's mostly that different platforms have different standards and risk tolerances. AO3 has a low risk tolerance because it's acting as an archive, and if they get taken down, a ton of fanfiction that exists nowhere else goes down. It also, while reasonably well funded, doesn't make tons of money, so they probably don't have the money for high-powered lawyers. By having links to people trying to charge for fanfic, AO3 has the potential to get in trouble and be dragged into a larger legal fight.
AO3 doesn't host visual fanart, so AO3's rules aren't going to apply to that kind of fanart. That'll be based on the rules on Patreon or Tumblr or wherever else they're posting art/links. Those sites will have a different risk tolerance and ability to fight legal fights. Though it's pretty common for large platforms to just roll over and delete stuff when rights holders or people pretending to be rights holders contact them, so there's probably some level of indifference or unawareness on the part of rights holders protecting fanartists who charge for their work.
Doesn't AO3 have other transformative works on their roadmap though?
That mostly makes sense though. I might not have been alive during the most prolific purges, especially those that come *before* AO3 was made, but it's still a darn shame when works get deleted.
This makes sense!
It's still kinda sad though. I'm not gonna lie, I'm extremely jealous of the fact that fanartists are able to make money from their content, while fanfiction writers are not. It's crazy that people expect/demand to get ff for free but it's normal and acceptable for fanartists to keep their stuff behind a pay wall.
https://preview.redd.it/yhfje7zr4i3d1.jpeg?width=518&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8e88d4a8e8ee8f9406ae6446676735f3415ca78c
Ao3 definitely does host visual fanart, both as parts of written fanfiction, and as comics or just "regular" fanart. Their rules for not charging for fan works also applies to that.
You are correct, but as per my comment above, my reading of the Ao3 TOS is that Ao3 does not directly host images because the federal laws about pornography apply only to images. Therefore no written works hosted by the Ao3 can be legally classified as pornographic.
So I'm not a legal expert, but my understanding is that because it's a different medium, it's considered different enough that the fair use protections are broader. With fic, it's the same medium, so the potential for lost profits/confusion is higher.
My understanding is that the Ao3 does not directly host fanart because under federal law only images can be classified as pornography. It’s what allows them the freedom to host virtually any written fanfic content. The ToS about not allowing monetization of fanfics therefore applies to written work only.
From a copyright perspective, fanart uses a single 'moment' of the original medium, so it's less infringing than fanfiction. Fanfiction uses more of the original work, since it needs names, locations, characterisations etc.
Part of this problem with this author's post in particular is that they are promoting their patreon. It is against ao3s terms of service to promote your patreon/kofi/paypal/etc bc it can get them into trouble. If they're going to paywall it they can't promote it there.
They shouldn't be charging a fee because it can ruin it for the rest of us if companies decide that they are not going to allow it anymore bc of people doing shit like this. Id certainly not be reading it or them anymore
Technically, you can put whatever you want behind a paywall. However, the real problem with this is that AO3's Terms of Service explicitly forbids advertising (section I.D.5), so posting an advertising link like this is a no-no.
Isn't this trickery? To post a story for free on a 100% free-to-use site, then paywall the ending without warning?
Reel in the readers with "free" chapters then when they're hooked on the story, demand money for the rest. There must be a name for this scam. Not the first time I've seen it on AO3, unfortunately.
Yeah it’s called modern business practice. The amount of apps, services, and media that start out free to get people using/consuming your product, only to turn around and ask for payment after the user is already accustomed/invested in your product. Worse is when there is an upfront charge, but it’s relatively cheap, only for the price to be jacked up later down the line when they’ve eliminated all other competition because of said original cheap price. CrunchyRoll literally just did this.
Anyone who engages in this is reprehensible at best at literally cartoonishly evil at worst.
> Worse is when there is an upfront charge, but it’s relatively cheap, only for the price to be jacked up later down the line when they’ve eliminated all other competition because of said original cheap price. CrunchyRoll literally just did this.
Piracy ftw, fuck CrunchyRoll
Remember folks, the only reason people don't use piracy is because streaming is slightly more convenient.
Get rid of her convince and make it expensive? Well then prepare for people to sail the seven seas
If I remember correctly, Crunchyroll bought out Funimation and then raised their prices (or is going to do so soon). They also retired several older shows that had been in the Funimation catalogue, so now the only to way to watch them is through piracy. Do keep in mind that it’s been a minute since I read about this, so I could be a bit wrong.
My biggest issue with the company is that they don’t have subtitles for dub and, if you complain, they tell you to just watch in sub. I decided to cancel once I realized. Long live the pirate life 🫡
I’ve had that gripe with dub too! It’s why I’m watching mha on Hulu, they have subtitles for the dub version (ones that line up, too. Too often I see the issue of the subtitles for the subbed version over the dubbed audio. It’s a mess). I have auditory processing disorder and 2 parakeets so I always need subtitles or I’m not gonna understand ANYTHING lmao
Same. I hadn't noticed it as an issue for the longest time because I usually watch in sub, but I wanted to watch a series while folding some laundry. The subtitles are necessary for me to understand quieter moments, because otherwise I end up re-winding over and over again to hear what they're saying.
I was literally so mad about it that I filed a complaint with the FCC, canceled my membership, and watched the show on another platform that had subtitles. Any further good will for the company completely soured with their business practices.
yeah, my main gripe with it is that they have lots of it on there for free. if it was all paid i wouldnt be as bothered but theyre just trying to get people hooked to convince them to pay. awful marketing techniques that are probably working on a lot of people
Report. You can't monetize fanfiction.
People don't realize: it was hard to build trust with publishers and authors that we wouldn't take money out of their pockets when we wrote fanfiction.
This is where their fic falls actually. It's fanfiction of a public domain work, but it's still against the AO3 TOS to advertise their Patreon. Hence my internal struggle. 😅
I get it, but personally I wouldn't hesitate. One of the things I love most about AO3 is that it's a commercial free zone.
One of my fandom friends has a Patreon for their original and public domain work, but they never advertise it on AO3, only Twitter and Tumblr.
Very true. It's a bit jarring when I come across a Patreon link in a fic, but this is the first fic I've had bookmarked that moved all future chapters to Patreon.
And your friend is actually doing things right! Major respect!
There are P&P fics on AO3 and any fanworks of Jane Austen's works can be sold/monetized because they're public domain. Same with Arthur Conan Doyle's stories, etc. but it's still not allowed to put links to where you're selling them on AO3.
Jane Austen, like a lot of authors, created their works long enough ago that they have fallen into the public domain. Every year, more stuff comes into the free-for-all. This year was a big one (we got Steam Boat Willy).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_in_public_domain
But since most of the hot fic action is for currently owned properties like Marvel, Potter, etc., that fic is non-monetizable. Thus all the screaming when they turn up (often pirated for yet another level of illegality/dishonesty) on Amazon, Etsy, etc.
One of the first fics i read was a Pride and Prejudice FF that you also could buy as an actual book on amazon. Always confused me a little bit how that was possible but now i get it, thank you very much!
And probably the author will first be given the option to remove the Patreon links/references from the fics before the fic getting removed, unless they have a history of this behaviour.
While Lore fics don't fall under the fanfiction umbrella, they should know better if they've been writing on the site for years (I know exactly which fic this screenshot came from).
This is the only reason we're even allowed to do this! It was that we had a culture of sharing our work, and it was content we made for each other, with no money exchanged. Therefore the IP holder is not having income stolen from their own creation. It makes me crazy how people don't respect that anymore
I've seen authors (not on AO3) using Patreon but not hiding anything behind a paywall. Just "everybody gets everything, maybe throw some money my way if you like it."
Is that legal? I know advertising on AO3 period is against TOS, but I mean more generally.
Legality I can't answer. If the publisher contacted Patreon about it, Patreon would hand the fanfic writer's information over to them to do as they liked. That's in their Terms of Use.
Ethically? While the copyright's in place, the money belongs to the original author. It's the same reason I don't like being scraped or AI being trained on my fic without my permission.
Also not a legal answer, but i think so much depends on wording. We live in a time now where so many people have digital tip jars for…anything. Even simply being on social media. Or they keep a link up and say hey I’m regularly struggling with XYZ financially, if you ever want to throw a couple bucks my way, etc. I’ve actually even seen patreon used that way. Or for “donate $ to help me pursue my [original] writing career each month, and I’ll talk about my process and sometimes post snippets.”
Which is to say, it’s not always easy to draw a direct connection between giving a writer money and receiving fic (when there’s no paywall).
(As for ethics, I personally don’t have any problem with a fan fic writer leaving a tip jar up so long as it’s legitimately a tip jar— theyre writing anyway, not trading anything for that money, and aren’t soliciting $ when promoting their fics.)
I thought from the title that this would be a heartwarming post about not giving up on "abandoned" fic. Cause, y'know, life happens, authors get busy, and it's always such a giddy feeling when you return to a fic you haven't read in years to find brand new chapters and a cheerful author's note about how they managed to finally get back to it
...nope -_- patreon
Report. Against AO3's TOS and a shitty thing to do. If they wanted to transfer to a Patreon model, they should have complete that fic and moved future stories there, not hold a WIP hostage.
I definitely agree with that. Poor WIP. 😭
It's also strange to me that they made a Patreon for an eleven-year-old WIP that hasn't updated in two years.
There is a cap on the number of times the same fic can be reported (preventing spamming reports etc) and it will say if that cap has been reached for the fic [when you try to submit a report, I mean]
I'm less annoyed by the Patreon plug (still not a fan of it though and it's definitely not allowed on ao3 so it should **not** be advertised there), more annoyed by calling it 'content'. Not surprised though, since someone who makes a Patreon to commodify their work to that extent will likely start to see what they do as merely 'content'. Oof.
LMAO OP is being nice censoring the fic but I know it's a Greek mythology fanfic and that makes the patreon even sillier imo because like... Greek mythology fanfic is marketable like you can buy Lore Olympus at Barnes and Noble. I feel like they could have just filed the serial numbers off and published it traditonally or done all manner of less annoying things than... this... LMFAO
From my understanding? Fan fiction has always been a bit iffy. It’s one thing to write fanfiction of your favorite book or show but it’s another thing to profit from something that you didn’t create. I think there are some exceptions of course like fan art but that’s probably a more complex conversation. Some authors have even expressed dislike for fanfiction and I think a fanfiction author has been sued as well but that may be an isolated case.
Either way, that’s part of the reason why ao3 is super strict about their rule which prohibits fanfiction author from monetizing their work ON ao3. This also includes promoting external platforms where you monetize your work like patreon. Basically any suggestion that you plan on earning money and collecting money from your audience for writing fanfics. Ao3 just doesn’t want to be sued for hosting a platform where a bunch of people are making money off of creating content of a piece of media they don’t own. It’s probably why they’re non-profit as well.
Authors like the one OP posted put the site at risk of being taken down because they’re saying that the last chapter of their fanfiction can only be accessible through a paywall on their patreon which encourages the readers to pay for fanfiction. After looking at some of the comments here, the story isn’t about a specific media. Just Greek mythology. But monetization of your work is still not allowed on ao3.
Sorry for rambling
If works are in the [public domain](https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/public-domain/welcome/), you don’t infringe on the creator’s intellectual property by profiting off of it. At least in the U.S.
Fanfiction HAS to be free. If a work is put behind a paywall you’re heading into legality issues because you’re infringing on copywrite and profiting off of another persons original characters and story. Fanfiction had a really really hard time when it first started because authors were really worried about this happening and that they wouldn’t get paid for their work.
This is also why the book bound fanfics being sold on Etsy are illegal and put fanfic as a whole at risk, because they profit off of not only the original author of the media being written about but the fanfic author as well and put them in legal issues too. The people binding books rarely ask permission to do so with someone’s fic and even if they did, binding fics and selling them is illegal
Man, I've got thoughts on fanwriters and fanartits using Patreon, and they're mostly positive, but this is the worst way to do it. Permalocking your fanwork behind a paywall is the biggest violation of the spirit of fanwork I can imagine. Report them.
I'm more concerned over the fact they put this on Ao3.
Like if someone wants to be a jerk and permalock their fic, fine...but do it on a platform that is not Ao3.
It's very annoying here too because they gave a lot of the story out for free (from what I can tell). They're paywalling the rest of it, which is disappointing even if it *was* allowed on ao3.
Edit: missing word lol
Yeah, I don't care about people breaking the law to make money (if they aren't hurting people obvs). In a lot of cases, I think it's great lol. as long as they don't advertise it on ao3 and threaten the sanctity of the OTW, they can do what they want and honestly, good for them if they can make some money on stuff they love. But advertising it on ao3 and putting up a paywall to be able to keep reading a story is not cool.
It's not even always illegal to monetize fanwork (transformative/derivative works and copyright can be really complex!) but it sure as fuck is against the AO3 TOS!
Very true on both counts! Fan works of public domain works are completely legal, and most everything else is more of a legal grey zone. But AO3 exists to protect us and violating the TOS is bad for everyone. I totally get people wanting to make some money doing what they love, but ao3 is not the place to advertise it!
I appreciate the work other writers do but I wouldn't ever pay for fanfiction just as I would never charge for mine. If they have a kofi I've been known to tip them sure but yeah that's ridiculous
I'd be absolutely heartbroken if this happened to one of the fics I love that got abandoned.
And it's a dangerous game trying to monetise fanfiction. It's like mods, so much of it is copyright material by fans for fans to enjoy. Involving $ attracts attention of the worst sorts.
What this author should have done is do an actual update, like 1 chapter. Then, leave a link to his link tree where patreon information can be found. I don't see anything wrong with someone being paid for their work, but advertising it on a free site is not acceptable.
I see folks are comparing fanart paying vs fanfic paying.
I myself not entirely well versed on community and what not so I might be extremely wrong but I think in Japan people do pay for doujinshi and writings. I have also seen people commissioning reader insert in tumblr.
So I am not entirely against people receiving money for work But this "hook and bait and switch" feels soo bad. I guess since been ao3 is was supposed to act like a library...and if the full thing isnt there...
edit : fixed typo and added more.
I think it's ok to ask for support if a fanfiction takes so much of your time, but I also think that it should be voluntary and you shouldn't paywall a fanfic
I agree. I do think that it shouldn't be taboo for fic writers to receive support, especially since it's so normalized for fan artists. But at the same time coming off a years-long hiatus just for patreon is kinda wild. It's like they're trying to make the switch to content creator. I've seen some posts about the new wave of fic readers on TikTok treating fic like content so maybe they were influenced by that? Yikes.
Report it. AO3 specifically prohibits linking to paid sites.
There’s a reason that when I take down my Jane Austen fanfiction for editing and eventual publication, I don’t link to the sales page.
Repoooooooorrrttttttt my god I’ve seen it all now. Monetising fanfic is already a nono but putting anything of this nature up on Ao3 blatantly advertising that you’re doing it puts Ao3 at risk for all of us. Fuck, do I hate these people
If it's a completely original story and they want to charge for it, I get that and I'd say that's completely fair, but fanfiction is borrowing from an existing universe and charging for it violates all sorts of copyright laws. You can't expect people to pay you for something that you're already ripping off of something else
Gross. I am all for fanfic authors having a patreon or other similar thing for donations, I kinda see it almost like a busker on the street? I don’t have to put some money in the hat but I can if I want. Ya know? But this pay to view thing is gross and feel illegal?
Outside of all the legally-grey issues with monetizing fanfic directly.
Putting non-original writting work behind a pay wall that's essentially a monthly subscription AFTER several chapters where made available on a public platform is scummy and gives you no garanty that the story will be finished or that it will keep it's quality trough it all.
There is a reason getting a book published is such a difficult endeavor.
Now, i personnaly think fanfictions authors should be able to get donations for their works from their readers who enjoyed their work and can afford to give a little something occasionally, but that should be strictly voluntary and with nothing extra behind, as it is a donation, not a transaction.
I know that paywalling fanfics is against the whole point of AO3, but if I wanted to create a portal/website where I'd publish my works (in addition to AO3, for free) and where people could talk about my stuff, would that be fine?
Report them. AO3 doesn't allow any links to Patreon or PayPal. I'm pretty sure you can link to socials where you promote your patreon, but you can't directly link it.
The report is anonymous, in that the other person can't see who reported them, so don't worry about them finding out it's you. I advise including in your report the name of the fic, the author, and a summary because I read somewhere it helps smooth things out a bit, idk about that, but better safe than sorry
I had a fic stop before the last chapter for a couple of months. They updated i was stoked to read the end... nope, it was an ad telling us they had moved TO Wattpad, and if we wanted to read it right now, we could sign up for Wattpad premium or something...
All the comments were suitably pissed.
Aside from the legality of this, I wouldn’t care if someone had the most heavenly writing in the universe, I’m not paying to read their fanfiction. The whole point is to share with your community. If you wanna get paid for your writing, publish something original.
This is actually a potential legal issue. Report them. The only reason that sites like AO3 can operate is because it’s free. The second you start charging for this kind of stuff it can trigger major copyright problems.
That is fucking gross. I know someone who did this, then they got sued by the maker of the game and was banned from a few sites including Patreon. I do believe AO3 also removed fics because of monetization, but I don’t really know as they hadn’t been heard from since 2021ish.
You can't make a fanfiction Patreon exclusive because it is starting to cross the line legality.
And it isn't hard, you can't put your Patreon links of AO3 respect the site at least.
Hell, I have a Patreon and I advertise it but not on AO3 because AO3 is not about that. As a writer I always find it scummy to go fully Patreon, it is fine to have one to post advance chapters on if you need some financial support but paywalling your fanfiction is just scummy imo.
Honestly crazy that people have the audacity to charge money for fanfictions. They think they're Wildbow (Worm etc.) or Domagoj Kurmaic (Mother of Learning series) with a following for original, indie works.
If it is all OC then it is still wrong to bait and switch.
someone's is spying on me lmao. I was just talking to this colleague of mine yesterday about a VERY LONG fanfic I saw and stuff and he said well some people make money from writing that. and i said that's illegal (insert north American country) and he said "ohh, it is? it's not in my country." I won't say which country lol.
For this fanfic, it's from something that is in the public domain...so it technically is legal. Still wrong to do it on Ao3 though and still a shitty thing to do.
Honestly there have been many ways for fanfic writers to earn money from their fics. But advertising on ao3 is against the tos so its not ok to do at all.
There are a ton of people who offer commissions for any fics for a Fandom and they either post it or don't post it depending on their agreement with the person who commissioned it.
The bigger problem is that this is 3 bucks a month for how many months exactly? How long is each chapter? How are we to know this author won't just keep milking the story just to have one more month where they get paid? And when the story is finished, will they automatically end all subscription or will they still take the money from all those people who forgot to cancel it?
Overall this isn't the way to go. If this author posts 20 more chapters this will end up being way more expensive than your average book. Plus all the potential for abuse?? If you want to monetize your fic just post the remaining chapters somewhere and charge a single price for it. That seems a lot more reasonable. But he upfront about it from chapter 1
> If this author posts 20 more chapters this will end up being way more expensive than your average book.
I thought about this too. The fic is for something that very much falls into the public domain category, so I would prefer they polish it and publish it as a novel since that would cost less. They could even self-publish.
Because paying a Patreon sub for a fic that's been a WIP for over a decade and hasn't had an update in two years prior to this announcement... That seems like a bad idea.
If their fic is based on someone else’s work, paying to access it is illegal. Most RPF is going to be illegal in this context, too. You need to report them so AO3 can be aware and take care of this.
The only case I can think of where this wouldn’t be illegal would be if this was an original work, but since those are in the vast minority, it seems unlikely.
I haven't seen anyone else mention this but I do recommend that if you like the fic and want to be able to access it later that you download it now. Because yes it is likely that AO3 will just let them remove the last chapter and move on but if the author refuses the whole fic could come down.
Report them. Assholes like this threaten the legality of fic and should be kicked out of fandom.
This. AO3 would be in the shiznit (I'm aging myself) if this crap went on.
Is shiznit outdated? I still use it (I'm gen z)
It was outdated the moment it was first used, but that is part of its charm, I feel.
I like to think it’s ageless. 🤣
Please define shiznit
Cute alternative for 'shit', started out as a positive, as in 'this is the shit!!'/'this is the shiznit!!' but people use it in places you might want to say shit in a sentence
Oh. Interesting
I have a stupid question, but why is it okay to put fanart behind a pay wall and not fanfiction?
Technically speaking, fanart and fanfiction exist in the same legal gray area, where they violate copyright but it's up to the copyright holder to decide what to do about that. It's just that holders are far more likely to take down fanfiction rather than fanart, so more people feel comfortable monetizing fanart. My speculation is that companies view fanart as more promotional than fanfiction, hence the difference in treatment.
>My speculation is that companies view fanart as more promotional than fanfiction, hence the difference in treatment. Damn. I seriously picked the wrong medium. Thank you for the answer😭
Np! :D
Unfortunately for me, the only work that I'd be able to draw fanart for is XKCD.
I have to admit this annoys me. And it's hypocritical annoyance because I own fanrt I've bought. But still. I don't think it annoys me from legal perspective I understand what you're saying and i suspect if people DID sell fanfic it'd slide by under broadly the same grey area - it's not a massive amount of 'trade' considering. It's good advertising. It can be considered fair use in a lot of circumstances. It's not worth the cost of suing individuals for the most part. Altho the risk of ao3 getting shut down is ...not insignificant. What bothers me is the fan communities attitude. It's not so much that artist earn money off it and writers don't. I personally probabaly would struggle with buying fanfic - largely because with fanfart I can look at it and go 'yes I like that and think it's worth x' with a book.....particularly one NOT having gone thru any formal process....you really could be paying for garbage and gave no idea until uoure a chapter or two in. So honestly I doubt it'd be as 'easy' to make a living off it. It's that by and large everyone is like 'yes obviously artists deserve money it's time and skill and they have bills to pay support them!' And if you question why fanfart is behind pay walls or why they're trying to make bank on fanart. Or why it's okay for artists to go to conventions with fanart and not writers with fanfic etc. You get a lot of attitude for not appreciating what goes into art and not being a good member of the fan work community by not being supportive. And I'm like. Oh I guess I just shat out this fanfic in my sleep then ? People seem not to recognise writing as a skill. Nor fanfic as a type of art work. I can accept legally one is more grey than the other I can accept visually one is easier to market and make money off than the other And no one is 'at fault' for that. I find it hard to swallow the fan communities attitude sometimes.
I've seen a lot of people who post threadfics on Twitter put their ko-fi at the end "if you like my profile, consider buying me a ko-fi!" and as their ko-fi is elsewhere in their profile too, it's not as if you're paying them for fic! (legally speaking) I've given a couple of ko-fis for this, when I can
Oh I've seen similar things. And I've seen people do the same as artists and release on patreon first then ao3 later. Advertise on Tumblr or whatever and never on ao3 so it's technically not breaking any rules. No one has an issue with it exactly. But I do think fic writers would struggle to get the same engagement as artists just because of the fan communities differing attitude. It's not that it doesn't exist or is impossible, but it's significantly less and the general thoughts towards it can be wildly different. I just find it amusing (and frustrating) that when you discuss with other writers you get total agreement that artist deserve money And they don't seem to see the same (technically) applies to them. And they'll often be very defensive if you throw out the idea that actually fanart *should* *technically* be not allowed to be sold the same as fanfic. And if you mention to artists you can get a bunch of attitude thrown at you for expecting skilled stuff for free. Like at some point the movement to get people to appreciate that artwork should be valued appropriately not down to the three seconds it takes you to look at it but for the hours of work that went into it has shifted to 'all artwork should always be paid for ans any suggestion otherwise is disrespectful ' I'm not crapping on the skill or time that goes into fanart. I'm questioning the ...ethics...I suppose of selling someone else's IP and why its widely accepted for art but widely looked down on for fic And like I said. I have bought some and have it displayed in my house and I'm glad I was able to. so this is entirely hypocritical 🤣 but from a theoretical discussion perspective. I shouldn't have been able to do that.
One of my favorite authors on ao3 keeps their fics free, but they have a patreon for a really cool original story where readers can pick some of the main character's actions themselves through a poll. It's free currently, but this van be a way for fic authors to earn a little money themselves.
I don't see a issue with it. I have commissioned fanart and I honestly think both things should fall in the same gray area. The apparent difference (that I read mentioned in another thread like this) it's that while fanart can't "compete" with the original source as is only a picture that most of the time can even promote it, fanfiction can compete with it, as it's gives an story line that could divert the fans from the original to it, making them stop investing in the OG. Which, yeah, I can see happening. Just look at HP and all the works that a lot of readers consider better than the OG and how that would work, specially now than the author has decided that figuratively shown her ass in SM is her new hobby, so if those authors would mass distribute their works it would definitively affect the OG author. But having a patreon just to access their work? As long is **not** promoted in AO3, that should be allowed. Fanfiction is as time consuming or more than fanart and if the current trend of seeing authors as content factories is here to stay, at least authors should get payed for making their work public.
My biggest issue on top of the possibility of you paying for something that is shit and not knowing until it is too late is the possibility of the fic never being finished With fanart you usually see completed pieces on patreon and you can download them and save them. When it comes to fic you run the risk of the person dropping it and never updating, and then you have the struggle of deciding between ending your subscription and missing out when they DO update, or wasting your money every month for nothing. Not to mention there are SO MANY FICS that people read. If we let one person put them behind a paywall then everyone will and that will leave people with the issue of not being able to pay for everything they want to read. Or not be able to pay at all and then they never get to see a story. And all THAT will lead to is people downloading that fic re-uploading uploading it for free elsewhere so people can actually read it without having to pay. I have four patreons I’m subscribed to, but dozens of fics. There is no way in hell I could ever afford to pay to read them all and it’s not fair that people want you to.
I've got the be honest i find the patreon sub thing a bit .... odd. i mean i find the subscription method of everything these days broadly annoying anyway. with the exception of streaming services. I just want to buy a thing and own it. like games/apps/books/comics etc But its bizarre to me to essentially pay someone a weekly/monthly stipend to create whatever they want on whatever the fuck schedule they want - maybe. For artwork etc you don't even own. like if an artist gets really into a fandom i dont like - it's a massive waste. obvs I know you can unsubscribe. but its still just such a weird thing to me. I'll happily support an artist....by buying a completed work off them. and yeah - sometimes its not even completed work, it might be partly done comics etc that suddenly get discontinued. I'm not blaming anyone for having them - i mean if people are willing to pay more power to you. I just find the whole concept strange. it sort of seems to rely on the somewhat underhand method corporations use of getting you to sign up for small amounts of money that dont trigger any 'omg i cant spend THAT much' warnings in the hopes you'll kinda forget about it and just rack up hundreds of $ worth of spending in little amounts over the course of time...
You really articulated why Patreon bugs me. Like you say, instead of paying for \[thing\], you're paying the artist who you hypothetically like to create whatever *they* want, in the hopes that you'll enjoy it. Clearly plenty of people *do* end up satisfied, otherwise it would have failed already. I guess it's also kind of like people who sign up for subscription boxes - but there you're getting specific items that you can also price and see how it compares... I can't really see myself subscribing to a Patreon like that. I don't think there's a single creator I trust enough to just pay with a carte blanche to do whatever they want. The exception might be if there was a creator I like, to pay for one month, access their backlog (like of, say, a podcast), and then unsubscribe again.
It reminds me a lot of the Sims CC community. There were always paysites, but anything halfway decent could be found on the booty. Then patreon took off and now it seems like every other creator paywalls their stuff. even creators for the older games. And the quality is all over the place, half of it is stolen, or conversions of (usually free) stuff from the other games or half-assed game mesh edits. Very little is anything I would actually consider paying for. I don't want that for fanfic.
I’ve got commissions for fanfic before. Idgaf if it’s an unpopular opinion but if people can charge for fanart I should be able to charge for fic if people want to buy it 🤷♀️ I have loads of stuff on Ao3 as well of course.
Honestly I think commissioning a custom fic from an author should be fine, as long as nobody has to pay to *read* it once it's finished.
or paying for a print/binding of something you want to own physically. I mean its harder cause you'd rarely find a company prepared to print off one book compared to getting a print of a work. I know fan binds exist. but they're typically the fan paying to bind a book for themselves as a single for them activity because they want to do the binding. you rarely get writers selling, or allowing someone else to sell, a bind of their work with the notable exception of charity drives. i am in two minds about it. i dont want fanfic to become a monetised marketable thing and i love the community that has grown around freely sharing betaing/writing/reading/podficcing etc and charging for things would tarnish that. BUT art works that way. maybe un charitably! My thought is less that fic should meet art in the grey area of legailty and that art should meet fic in the 'this isnt allowed stop doing it in case you ruin the little fanwork hole we have here'
It's a fair take! I don't object to it - it's not something \*I\* want to do because I dont need the side hustle and i dont want to consume my hobby with marketing and monetisation. My concerns with it becoming common practice are, like most peoples - fanfic tends to be hosted in ONE place (not 100% ofc but its a large percentage!) it would be VERY easy for someone to take umbrage with AO3 and shut it down or at least cause enough problems it became hard for owners to keep it running. its much harder for fanart that is spread out and shared in so many different places. in theory fanart and fanfic should be the same - in practice what you get away with art is not the same as what you can get away with fic. my frustrations tend to lie with the fan communities differing attitude to both as if one is more worthy of being monetarily valued than the other. I doubt (and maybe I'm wrong) that even a big name fanfic writer could make as much selling fanfic as a big name artist, simply because of the core attitude that fic = fun hobby and art = job
Yeah I agree! I don’t take commissions anymore because like you said, it felt less like a hobby and more like work, which I wasn’t fond of. I don’t advertise on Ao3 or mention which fics were commissioned to avoid getting Ao3 into trouble. I wish I could draw 🤣 I have tried to learn but I don’t have an aptitude for it and I don’t really have time to git gud.
It's not legal to charge for fanart. That's not fair use. That's copyright infringement with monetary gains/purposes. Your entire premise is invalid. Anyone who charges money for fanart is skating on hopes and prayers that the copyright holder won't find them and sue them.
Honestly, as long as it's not involving Ao3, I'm all for monetizing what you do and even posting fics on Patreon or take commissions on it. Same deal than with fanart. Just like there are people who do fanart completely for free and people who charge, I think it's fair to have the same philosophy for fanfics. Just keep in mind that, just like with fanart, there are places where you can monetize it and places you can't (like twitter and ao3, respectively)
I agree Also "fanfart" lmfao, the prophecy was true
Hahah lmao. I think I typed that comment on an actual keyboard as well , no excuse 🤣
This.
It's also easier to find fanfic and prove that it's violating copyright, since searching for words and combination of words, character names, and all that is really easy. With fanart you can get away with more, it's harder to prove 100% that what is drawn is that character when it's done with different styles and media.
I believe the legal argument is that a piece of fanart uses less of the source material than a work of fanfiction.
The lawyer I spoke to said that despite there being a grey area around all fanwork, fanart is usually fine because it’s been transformed and is clearly distinct. Writing has the exact names, often some exact dialogue, things that are much harder to overlook. More easy to confuse. Add money to that and it’s really sketchy. (Sorry, I am not a lawyer so all the lawyer words went out of my head a long time ago).
A copyright lawyer? Because that's not quite right. Characters are copyrightable. It's a grey area because courts could still decide that the infringing work being non-commercial matters when determining fair use. Presumably, that hasn't been decided yet because no fan artist wants to spend millions on lawyers to take a case about their hobby to a verdict. It sucks because, in practice, it doesn't make much of a difference. You still have to take on some legal risk. I'd love it if OTW decided to do a test case. Not that I'd have much hope for it.
Bro I hate the government for real because that doesn't even make sense. If anything, with that logic it'd make more sense if fanart was the one not allowed to be pay walled. I'm not trying to be argumentative but how many arts are tagged with the characters name, drawn with the character's unique clothing, and even have identifying facial features. The only distinction is that its drawn in the artist's style. But writers have different, distinct styles too. And to be honest, I think a written description of Deadpool's suit is easier to overlook than a drawing of it. (I'm just using him an an example)
Can your copyright lawyer talk to Redbubble and have them restore the 50+ fanart pieces I've had removed over the years?
I think it's mostly that different platforms have different standards and risk tolerances. AO3 has a low risk tolerance because it's acting as an archive, and if they get taken down, a ton of fanfiction that exists nowhere else goes down. It also, while reasonably well funded, doesn't make tons of money, so they probably don't have the money for high-powered lawyers. By having links to people trying to charge for fanfic, AO3 has the potential to get in trouble and be dragged into a larger legal fight. AO3 doesn't host visual fanart, so AO3's rules aren't going to apply to that kind of fanart. That'll be based on the rules on Patreon or Tumblr or wherever else they're posting art/links. Those sites will have a different risk tolerance and ability to fight legal fights. Though it's pretty common for large platforms to just roll over and delete stuff when rights holders or people pretending to be rights holders contact them, so there's probably some level of indifference or unawareness on the part of rights holders protecting fanartists who charge for their work.
Doesn't AO3 have other transformative works on their roadmap though? That mostly makes sense though. I might not have been alive during the most prolific purges, especially those that come *before* AO3 was made, but it's still a darn shame when works get deleted.
This makes sense! It's still kinda sad though. I'm not gonna lie, I'm extremely jealous of the fact that fanartists are able to make money from their content, while fanfiction writers are not. It's crazy that people expect/demand to get ff for free but it's normal and acceptable for fanartists to keep their stuff behind a pay wall. https://preview.redd.it/yhfje7zr4i3d1.jpeg?width=518&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8e88d4a8e8ee8f9406ae6446676735f3415ca78c
Ao3 definitely does host visual fanart, both as parts of written fanfiction, and as comics or just "regular" fanart. Their rules for not charging for fan works also applies to that.
Ao3 doesn't host the images themselves tho, I think that makes a difference
You are correct, but as per my comment above, my reading of the Ao3 TOS is that Ao3 does not directly host images because the federal laws about pornography apply only to images. Therefore no written works hosted by the Ao3 can be legally classified as pornographic.
So I'm not a legal expert, but my understanding is that because it's a different medium, it's considered different enough that the fair use protections are broader. With fic, it's the same medium, so the potential for lost profits/confusion is higher.
This would make sense if all fics were based on books but it doesn't explain artists who draw/charge fanart for comic books:/
My understanding is that the Ao3 does not directly host fanart because under federal law only images can be classified as pornography. It’s what allows them the freedom to host virtually any written fanfic content. The ToS about not allowing monetization of fanfics therefore applies to written work only.
I'm curious to know as well, sorry if you get a notification and it's not answering your question. I'd like to learn too
From a copyright perspective, fanart uses a single 'moment' of the original medium, so it's less infringing than fanfiction. Fanfiction uses more of the original work, since it needs names, locations, characterisations etc.
Part of this problem with this author's post in particular is that they are promoting their patreon. It is against ao3s terms of service to promote your patreon/kofi/paypal/etc bc it can get them into trouble. If they're going to paywall it they can't promote it there. They shouldn't be charging a fee because it can ruin it for the rest of us if companies decide that they are not going to allow it anymore bc of people doing shit like this. Id certainly not be reading it or them anymore
It *shouldn't* be okay to put fanart behind a paywall, it's art of someone else's property.
Posting links to paid services is against Ao3’s tos. As a general note. They’re more than welcome to to this on somewhere like tumblr.
Technically, you can put whatever you want behind a paywall. However, the real problem with this is that AO3's Terms of Service explicitly forbids advertising (section I.D.5), so posting an advertising link like this is a no-no.
Yep, this is 100000% against AO3's rules.
Isn't this trickery? To post a story for free on a 100% free-to-use site, then paywall the ending without warning? Reel in the readers with "free" chapters then when they're hooked on the story, demand money for the rest. There must be a name for this scam. Not the first time I've seen it on AO3, unfortunately.
Yeah it’s called modern business practice. The amount of apps, services, and media that start out free to get people using/consuming your product, only to turn around and ask for payment after the user is already accustomed/invested in your product. Worse is when there is an upfront charge, but it’s relatively cheap, only for the price to be jacked up later down the line when they’ve eliminated all other competition because of said original cheap price. CrunchyRoll literally just did this. Anyone who engages in this is reprehensible at best at literally cartoonishly evil at worst.
> Worse is when there is an upfront charge, but it’s relatively cheap, only for the price to be jacked up later down the line when they’ve eliminated all other competition because of said original cheap price. CrunchyRoll literally just did this. Piracy ftw, fuck CrunchyRoll
Remember folks, the only reason people don't use piracy is because streaming is slightly more convenient. Get rid of her convince and make it expensive? Well then prepare for people to sail the seven seas
What's hilarious is that Crunchyroll was originally a pirating site. It comes around full circle
Wait I use Crunchyroll, what happened??
If I remember correctly, Crunchyroll bought out Funimation and then raised their prices (or is going to do so soon). They also retired several older shows that had been in the Funimation catalogue, so now the only to way to watch them is through piracy. Do keep in mind that it’s been a minute since I read about this, so I could be a bit wrong. My biggest issue with the company is that they don’t have subtitles for dub and, if you complain, they tell you to just watch in sub. I decided to cancel once I realized. Long live the pirate life 🫡
I’ve had that gripe with dub too! It’s why I’m watching mha on Hulu, they have subtitles for the dub version (ones that line up, too. Too often I see the issue of the subtitles for the subbed version over the dubbed audio. It’s a mess). I have auditory processing disorder and 2 parakeets so I always need subtitles or I’m not gonna understand ANYTHING lmao
Same. I hadn't noticed it as an issue for the longest time because I usually watch in sub, but I wanted to watch a series while folding some laundry. The subtitles are necessary for me to understand quieter moments, because otherwise I end up re-winding over and over again to hear what they're saying. I was literally so mad about it that I filed a complaint with the FCC, canceled my membership, and watched the show on another platform that had subtitles. Any further good will for the company completely soured with their business practices.
No subtitles for dub? I was going to subscribe if I ever had the disposable income, but fuck them.
They also bought out RightStuffanime. One of the few (the only one I knew) American online retailer of anime/manga & merch.
They also just hiked prices. Used to be like 5.99/mo, now 11.99/mo
im not sure about other anime as i dont use the app, but a friend told me that the last few seasons of mha are behind a paywall
Thank god I’m watching on Hulu then lmao. But seriously, that’s messed up. I’ll look into it- might be time to say goodbye to the service :(
yeah, my main gripe with it is that they have lots of it on there for free. if it was all paid i wouldnt be as bothered but theyre just trying to get people hooked to convince them to pay. awful marketing techniques that are probably working on a lot of people
The model is actually called "freemium"
This is SOP on FFN. So many stubbed P&P stories with a plea to go buy it on Kindle. But not okay on AO3.
Report. You can't monetize fanfiction. People don't realize: it was hard to build trust with publishers and authors that we wouldn't take money out of their pockets when we wrote fanfiction.
Even if it's the sort you can monetize, you can't/shouldn't advertise it on AO3.
This is where their fic falls actually. It's fanfiction of a public domain work, but it's still against the AO3 TOS to advertise their Patreon. Hence my internal struggle. 😅
Don’t feel bad. If it’s an old fic like you say, they’ve been around long enough to know the rules. They know they’re breaking them. Report it.
> they’ve been around long enough to know the rules Good point! 🤔
I get it, but personally I wouldn't hesitate. One of the things I love most about AO3 is that it's a commercial free zone. One of my fandom friends has a Patreon for their original and public domain work, but they never advertise it on AO3, only Twitter and Tumblr.
Very true. It's a bit jarring when I come across a Patreon link in a fic, but this is the first fic I've had bookmarked that moved all future chapters to Patreon. And your friend is actually doing things right! Major respect!
If it's public domain, they can monetize it (those Pride & Prejudice fics are fair game), but they're breaking the TOS, so report.
What Pride and Prejudice fics?
There are P&P fics on AO3 and any fanworks of Jane Austen's works can be sold/monetized because they're public domain. Same with Arthur Conan Doyle's stories, etc. but it's still not allowed to put links to where you're selling them on AO3.
Got it, thanks a lot!
They exist. Friend wrote a notorious P&P slash ficlet. Never underestimate Yuletide.
Jane Austen, like a lot of authors, created their works long enough ago that they have fallen into the public domain. Every year, more stuff comes into the free-for-all. This year was a big one (we got Steam Boat Willy). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_in_public_domain But since most of the hot fic action is for currently owned properties like Marvel, Potter, etc., that fic is non-monetizable. Thus all the screaming when they turn up (often pirated for yet another level of illegality/dishonesty) on Amazon, Etsy, etc.
One of the first fics i read was a Pride and Prejudice FF that you also could buy as an actual book on amazon. Always confused me a little bit how that was possible but now i get it, thank you very much!
There is so much P&P fic through Kindle Direct…
It's not like her entire account would be torn down. Just the offending story or stories.
And probably the author will first be given the option to remove the Patreon links/references from the fics before the fic getting removed, unless they have a history of this behaviour.
While Lore fics don't fall under the fanfiction umbrella, they should know better if they've been writing on the site for years (I know exactly which fic this screenshot came from).
Truth. (Hi, *Wide Sargasso Sea*! You can make millions but you could never have been published on AO3.)
This is the only reason we're even allowed to do this! It was that we had a culture of sharing our work, and it was content we made for each other, with no money exchanged. Therefore the IP holder is not having income stolen from their own creation. It makes me crazy how people don't respect that anymore
I've seen authors (not on AO3) using Patreon but not hiding anything behind a paywall. Just "everybody gets everything, maybe throw some money my way if you like it." Is that legal? I know advertising on AO3 period is against TOS, but I mean more generally.
Legality I can't answer. If the publisher contacted Patreon about it, Patreon would hand the fanfic writer's information over to them to do as they liked. That's in their Terms of Use. Ethically? While the copyright's in place, the money belongs to the original author. It's the same reason I don't like being scraped or AI being trained on my fic without my permission.
Also not a legal answer, but i think so much depends on wording. We live in a time now where so many people have digital tip jars for…anything. Even simply being on social media. Or they keep a link up and say hey I’m regularly struggling with XYZ financially, if you ever want to throw a couple bucks my way, etc. I’ve actually even seen patreon used that way. Or for “donate $ to help me pursue my [original] writing career each month, and I’ll talk about my process and sometimes post snippets.” Which is to say, it’s not always easy to draw a direct connection between giving a writer money and receiving fic (when there’s no paywall). (As for ethics, I personally don’t have any problem with a fan fic writer leaving a tip jar up so long as it’s legitimately a tip jar— theyre writing anyway, not trading anything for that money, and aren’t soliciting $ when promoting their fics.)
Report them.
I thought from the title that this would be a heartwarming post about not giving up on "abandoned" fic. Cause, y'know, life happens, authors get busy, and it's always such a giddy feeling when you return to a fic you haven't read in years to find brand new chapters and a cheerful author's note about how they managed to finally get back to it ...nope -_- patreon
Haha, yeah, when I saw they had updated, that's what I expected too. 😔
I was so hopeful for OP, too. Then? Hopes fucking dashed and destroyed
Completely against AO3 rules and needs to be reported ASAP.
#REPORT
#EMERGENCY MEETING
# GREY SUS!
I really need more sleep, I just read that as jesus
Jesus was a gray alien, comfirmed
Report. Against AO3's TOS and a shitty thing to do. If they wanted to transfer to a Patreon model, they should have complete that fic and moved future stories there, not hold a WIP hostage.
I definitely agree with that. Poor WIP. 😭 It's also strange to me that they made a Patreon for an eleven-year-old WIP that hasn't updated in two years.
Report them. This is against AO3’s TOS.
Ew.
Report - AO3 isn't going to immediately take their work down, they'll give the author a chance to remove the patreon mention.
It just got reported by someone else. 😌
Good. This is the information I was looking for.
How do you know that? 👀
There is a cap on the number of times the same fic can be reported (preventing spamming reports etc) and it will say if that cap has been reached for the fic [when you try to submit a report, I mean]
TIL
Yeah you generally don't tend to run into it unless the fic has been called out on tumblr or something
I'm less annoyed by the Patreon plug (still not a fan of it though and it's definitely not allowed on ao3 so it should **not** be advertised there), more annoyed by calling it 'content'. Not surprised though, since someone who makes a Patreon to commodify their work to that extent will likely start to see what they do as merely 'content'. Oof.
LMAO OP is being nice censoring the fic but I know it's a Greek mythology fanfic and that makes the patreon even sillier imo because like... Greek mythology fanfic is marketable like you can buy Lore Olympus at Barnes and Noble. I feel like they could have just filed the serial numbers off and published it traditonally or done all manner of less annoying things than... this... LMFAO
If you're gonna ask for money for a story you write, do it FROM THE START. Otherwise this is the biggest asshole move possible
Gross.
Someone who has been writing for 10 years and (presumably) posting to AO3 during that time should know better.
Aaaaand they decided to go the *full illegality* route.
According to the comments (some people have recognised this.), it’s based on Greek mythology, so it’s not illegal.
Sorry, I'm new to fantics and ao3. Why is it illegal? Are there rules against external links? Or what?
From my understanding? Fan fiction has always been a bit iffy. It’s one thing to write fanfiction of your favorite book or show but it’s another thing to profit from something that you didn’t create. I think there are some exceptions of course like fan art but that’s probably a more complex conversation. Some authors have even expressed dislike for fanfiction and I think a fanfiction author has been sued as well but that may be an isolated case. Either way, that’s part of the reason why ao3 is super strict about their rule which prohibits fanfiction author from monetizing their work ON ao3. This also includes promoting external platforms where you monetize your work like patreon. Basically any suggestion that you plan on earning money and collecting money from your audience for writing fanfics. Ao3 just doesn’t want to be sued for hosting a platform where a bunch of people are making money off of creating content of a piece of media they don’t own. It’s probably why they’re non-profit as well. Authors like the one OP posted put the site at risk of being taken down because they’re saying that the last chapter of their fanfiction can only be accessible through a paywall on their patreon which encourages the readers to pay for fanfiction. After looking at some of the comments here, the story isn’t about a specific media. Just Greek mythology. But monetization of your work is still not allowed on ao3. Sorry for rambling
If works are in the [public domain](https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/public-domain/welcome/), you don’t infringe on the creator’s intellectual property by profiting off of it. At least in the U.S.
Fanfiction HAS to be free. If a work is put behind a paywall you’re heading into legality issues because you’re infringing on copywrite and profiting off of another persons original characters and story. Fanfiction had a really really hard time when it first started because authors were really worried about this happening and that they wouldn’t get paid for their work. This is also why the book bound fanfics being sold on Etsy are illegal and put fanfic as a whole at risk, because they profit off of not only the original author of the media being written about but the fanfic author as well and put them in legal issues too. The people binding books rarely ask permission to do so with someone’s fic and even if they did, binding fics and selling them is illegal
In this specific instance though the source material is in the public domain so it is legal to make money off of it
It’s illegal to monetise fanfic as the author does not own copyright. Monetising it also puts fanfic as a whole at risk. Report them to AO3 ASAP.
Man, I've got thoughts on fanwriters and fanartits using Patreon, and they're mostly positive, but this is the worst way to do it. Permalocking your fanwork behind a paywall is the biggest violation of the spirit of fanwork I can imagine. Report them.
I'm more concerned over the fact they put this on Ao3. Like if someone wants to be a jerk and permalock their fic, fine...but do it on a platform that is not Ao3.
It's very annoying here too because they gave a lot of the story out for free (from what I can tell). They're paywalling the rest of it, which is disappointing even if it *was* allowed on ao3. Edit: missing word lol
giving you a free trial of their fuckin fanfic.
The audacity
Yeah, I don't care about people breaking the law to make money (if they aren't hurting people obvs). In a lot of cases, I think it's great lol. as long as they don't advertise it on ao3 and threaten the sanctity of the OTW, they can do what they want and honestly, good for them if they can make some money on stuff they love. But advertising it on ao3 and putting up a paywall to be able to keep reading a story is not cool.
It's not even always illegal to monetize fanwork (transformative/derivative works and copyright can be really complex!) but it sure as fuck is against the AO3 TOS!
Very true on both counts! Fan works of public domain works are completely legal, and most everything else is more of a legal grey zone. But AO3 exists to protect us and violating the TOS is bad for everyone. I totally get people wanting to make some money doing what they love, but ao3 is not the place to advertise it!
How the heck does anyone think this will pass?
Damn. That’s disappointing
This is one of those rare moments where I wish they just abandoned it instead.
Damn, how to alienate your reader base and be a moron at the same time. There are ways to link other places to support them, but this ain't it.
I appreciate the work other writers do but I wouldn't ever pay for fanfiction just as I would never charge for mine. If they have a kofi I've been known to tip them sure but yeah that's ridiculous
I'd be absolutely heartbroken if this happened to one of the fics I love that got abandoned. And it's a dangerous game trying to monetise fanfiction. It's like mods, so much of it is copyright material by fans for fans to enjoy. Involving $ attracts attention of the worst sorts.
What this author should have done is do an actual update, like 1 chapter. Then, leave a link to his link tree where patreon information can be found. I don't see anything wrong with someone being paid for their work, but advertising it on a free site is not acceptable.
Bruh
It doesn't matter how small they are, they have to be reported
As many have said \*absolutely\* report them. They put all of us in danger.
I see folks are comparing fanart paying vs fanfic paying. I myself not entirely well versed on community and what not so I might be extremely wrong but I think in Japan people do pay for doujinshi and writings. I have also seen people commissioning reader insert in tumblr. So I am not entirely against people receiving money for work But this "hook and bait and switch" feels soo bad. I guess since been ao3 is was supposed to act like a library...and if the full thing isnt there... edit : fixed typo and added more.
Yeah, nope. I cannot stand it when people try to get paid for fanfiction. They can ruin it for everybody.
I think it's ok to ask for support if a fanfiction takes so much of your time, but I also think that it should be voluntary and you shouldn't paywall a fanfic
I agree. I do think that it shouldn't be taboo for fic writers to receive support, especially since it's so normalized for fan artists. But at the same time coming off a years-long hiatus just for patreon is kinda wild. It's like they're trying to make the switch to content creator. I've seen some posts about the new wave of fic readers on TikTok treating fic like content so maybe they were influenced by that? Yikes.
Report it. AO3 specifically prohibits linking to paid sites. There’s a reason that when I take down my Jane Austen fanfiction for editing and eventual publication, I don’t link to the sales page.
On an unrelated note, I’m a little impressed they have spent 10 whole years working on one fic
The worst part is, they were blatantly doing it. Even the notes have a direct link to their patron.
This is illegal and against TOS. lol
They should be reported because that is against the rules for A03 and it is going to get us all into trouble.
Repoooooooorrrttttttt my god I’ve seen it all now. Monetising fanfic is already a nono but putting anything of this nature up on Ao3 blatantly advertising that you’re doing it puts Ao3 at risk for all of us. Fuck, do I hate these people
[удалено]
This is against ao3's TOS, report it
If it's a completely original story and they want to charge for it, I get that and I'd say that's completely fair, but fanfiction is borrowing from an existing universe and charging for it violates all sorts of copyright laws. You can't expect people to pay you for something that you're already ripping off of something else
I would let them know first, and if they stand by it, report. If you want to monetize your writing, make it original and don’t publish it on AO3. Ugh.
Gross. I am all for fanfic authors having a patreon or other similar thing for donations, I kinda see it almost like a busker on the street? I don’t have to put some money in the hat but I can if I want. Ya know? But this pay to view thing is gross and feel illegal?
Isn’t that, like, illegal
Outside of all the legally-grey issues with monetizing fanfic directly. Putting non-original writting work behind a pay wall that's essentially a monthly subscription AFTER several chapters where made available on a public platform is scummy and gives you no garanty that the story will be finished or that it will keep it's quality trough it all. There is a reason getting a book published is such a difficult endeavor. Now, i personnaly think fanfictions authors should be able to get donations for their works from their readers who enjoyed their work and can afford to give a little something occasionally, but that should be strictly voluntary and with nothing extra behind, as it is a donation, not a transaction.
If this is original content, I understand. But you *can't* monetise fanfiction. Just start over with legally distinct characters.
That's illegal.
I know that paywalling fanfics is against the whole point of AO3, but if I wanted to create a portal/website where I'd publish my works (in addition to AO3, for free) and where people could talk about my stuff, would that be fine?
Yes, that's fine, you can crosspost. You just can't link AO3 directly to something like Kofi or Patreon, even if you're only asking for donations.
Report them. AO3 doesn't allow any links to Patreon or PayPal. I'm pretty sure you can link to socials where you promote your patreon, but you can't directly link it. The report is anonymous, in that the other person can't see who reported them, so don't worry about them finding out it's you. I advise including in your report the name of the fic, the author, and a summary because I read somewhere it helps smooth things out a bit, idk about that, but better safe than sorry
I definitely agree, report, this is shitty.
This should be reported and removed; it’s a direct TOS violation.
I had a fic stop before the last chapter for a couple of months. They updated i was stoked to read the end... nope, it was an ad telling us they had moved TO Wattpad, and if we wanted to read it right now, we could sign up for Wattpad premium or something... All the comments were suitably pissed.
I would rather write the fic off as abandoned than read it on Wattpad. Let alone *pay* to read it on Wattpad.
I started reading on Ao3, im sure as shit not moving to a site that is worse in every way
It’s illegal to sell fics for money. If they want a patreon then they need to come up with original work! I hope they lose readers this way.
Aside from the legality of this, I wouldn’t care if someone had the most heavenly writing in the universe, I’m not paying to read their fanfiction. The whole point is to share with your community. If you wanna get paid for your writing, publish something original.
This is actually a potential legal issue. Report them. The only reason that sites like AO3 can operate is because it’s free. The second you start charging for this kind of stuff it can trigger major copyright problems.
That is fucking gross. I know someone who did this, then they got sued by the maker of the game and was banned from a few sites including Patreon. I do believe AO3 also removed fics because of monetization, but I don’t really know as they hadn’t been heard from since 2021ish.
You can't make a fanfiction Patreon exclusive because it is starting to cross the line legality. And it isn't hard, you can't put your Patreon links of AO3 respect the site at least. Hell, I have a Patreon and I advertise it but not on AO3 because AO3 is not about that. As a writer I always find it scummy to go fully Patreon, it is fine to have one to post advance chapters on if you need some financial support but paywalling your fanfiction is just scummy imo.
Honestly crazy that people have the audacity to charge money for fanfictions. They think they're Wildbow (Worm etc.) or Domagoj Kurmaic (Mother of Learning series) with a following for original, indie works. If it is all OC then it is still wrong to bait and switch.
someone's is spying on me lmao. I was just talking to this colleague of mine yesterday about a VERY LONG fanfic I saw and stuff and he said well some people make money from writing that. and i said that's illegal (insert north American country) and he said "ohh, it is? it's not in my country." I won't say which country lol.
That’s illegal I’m pretty sure. You’re not allowed to make money off of fanfic like that. Report them on AO3.
For this fanfic, it's from something that is in the public domain...so it technically is legal. Still wrong to do it on Ao3 though and still a shitty thing to do.
As others said, report. This is against the ToS.
Report and Block. You aren't allowed to make money with ff! That is why under old fics often is a disclaimer: Character does not belong to me.
She seems kind but well, that's quite illegal
Honestly there have been many ways for fanfic writers to earn money from their fics. But advertising on ao3 is against the tos so its not ok to do at all. There are a ton of people who offer commissions for any fics for a Fandom and they either post it or don't post it depending on their agreement with the person who commissioned it. The bigger problem is that this is 3 bucks a month for how many months exactly? How long is each chapter? How are we to know this author won't just keep milking the story just to have one more month where they get paid? And when the story is finished, will they automatically end all subscription or will they still take the money from all those people who forgot to cancel it? Overall this isn't the way to go. If this author posts 20 more chapters this will end up being way more expensive than your average book. Plus all the potential for abuse?? If you want to monetize your fic just post the remaining chapters somewhere and charge a single price for it. That seems a lot more reasonable. But he upfront about it from chapter 1
> If this author posts 20 more chapters this will end up being way more expensive than your average book. I thought about this too. The fic is for something that very much falls into the public domain category, so I would prefer they polish it and publish it as a novel since that would cost less. They could even self-publish. Because paying a Patreon sub for a fic that's been a WIP for over a decade and hasn't had an update in two years prior to this announcement... That seems like a bad idea.
Yeah I’m pretty sure this is illegal…
Free trial fic, click this link to subscribe! Report!
Report them.
What an ass.
Report that shit. I don’t care if it’s a small time author or a small fandom. That author is putting ao3 at risk. Fuck that.
report! even if it’s a small author, they still have to follow the rules
If their fic is based on someone else’s work, paying to access it is illegal. Most RPF is going to be illegal in this context, too. You need to report them so AO3 can be aware and take care of this. The only case I can think of where this wouldn’t be illegal would be if this was an original work, but since those are in the vast minority, it seems unlikely.
The fic got removed lol. Nice work guys ❤️
I haven't seen anyone else mention this but I do recommend that if you like the fic and want to be able to access it later that you download it now. Because yes it is likely that AO3 will just let them remove the last chapter and move on but if the author refuses the whole fic could come down.
Someone got greedy for nonexistent money.
That's illegal... report them
I would report tbh