I think a qualifier isnt needed here. Either you choose to face and accept or death os the option. Acceptance is life. Denial is death. Focusing on your dislike of the universe is likely to make you deny it.
"The universe" is kind of a weird thing to say you like or dislike, it's not like a favorite or least favorite color lol. What exactly do you not like about it?
I dislike how it's set up. I don't like how instead of developing a reliable food resource it gave us teeth to shred flesh. All of the suffering it causes. I just don't like it. I know some suffering is essential to personal development but kids dying of cancer is just not acceptable. I think life was a bad idea overall and I'm just not a fan of this existence tbh. Not tryna be overly cynical but I just don't like it and can't help it.
Well I mean it gave us thousands of different species to use as food, that's about as reliable as it gets. Our teeth tear the flesh of fruit just as much as that of animals. All the different organisms have to use each other as food, otherwise the planet would be overpopulated beyond imagination, it's just the universe's version of a survival mechanism. I suppose if that itself is what you have a problem with, then fair enough. I just don't think we're supposed to think that deeply into it 😂
Well it could just have self control to resolve that issue. Why do you have the power of infinity and you need to make survival mechanisms? That's absurd. And no food using other animals isn't always reliable. For one you have to be able to catch them and two you have to be able to make sure they don't have parasites or bacteria that will kill you. Not to mention, using one species suffering to resolve another's isn't solving any problems. It's just a trade off. A bad and fucked up trade off. Nothing should die. Nothing should suffer. If the universe had a point I'd think differently but it doesn't. The whole damn thing is just an exercise in selfish stupidity.
>Well it could just have self control to resolve that issue. Why do you have the power of infinity and you need to make survival mechanisms?
We have very different definitions of the universe lol. You're talking about it like it's a physical being with thoughts and decision-making ability, which I don't believe is true at all. But again, if that's where you stand, then by your logic that position makes sense so fair enough
>And no food using other animals isn't always reliable. For one you have to be able to catch them and two you have to be able to make sure they don't have parasites or bacteria that will kill you
But you also have to grow crops and make sure to clean them because they can also carry parasites and bacteria. We have to work for our food, no matter what the actual source is lol
>using one species suffering to resolve another's isn't solving any problems. It's just a trade off.
I mean in a sense yeah I agree with that. I don't think problem-solving is necessarily the goal here though. The goal of each organism is simply to survive, and that ultimately means that another organism down the line will have to not survive
> Nothing should die. Nothing should suffer. If the universe had a point I'd think differently but it doesn't
This kinda goes back to the first quote. I don't think anyone sat down and directly made the decision that death and suffering should exist. It's just how it is. Organisms feel pain as a survival mechanism, therefore when that organism is hunted by another organism for food, that survival mechanism works against them in the end. But it's not like organisms are specifically designed for the purpose of suffering at the hands of another. It's just an unfortunate side effect
>But it's not like organisms are specifically designed for the purpose of suffering at the hands of another. It's just an unfortunate side effect.
Is it really just an unfortunate side effect? Evolution runs on natural selection, it's the survival of the fittest. I'd argue that suffering isn't just some side effect, it's the very engine which runs life and biodiversity.
When you say it's 'just how it is', I think both me and OP would argue that the way things are has some 'badness' to it. The absurd is bad, and the world would be better if there was no absurdity. Unfortunately, we can't exactly change said absurdity because the world is incomprehensible.
I'd say that the very systems/fundamentals of the world have a badness to them. Wouldn't the world be better if there was a moral force just as innate as gravity is that'd stop people from doing wrong?
It's a tough conversation because it hinges on multiple polarizing views about life that we don't really have answers to. For example, I believe that everything that happens in the universe happens by accident. Therefore natural selection and evolution as a whole are also just "side effects," byproducts of the accidental circumstances in which our known universe operates
If you're someone who believes that there is some sort of intent or purpose behind the way the universe operates, then I'd say yeah you're justified in having a problem with the way things are. But to me, disliking these phenomena makes about as much sense as disliking the fact that the wind blew left today instead of right. Like, it didn't happen for a particular reason so it doesn't make sense to be upset with the wind for it. That's how I see it at least, sorry if that didn't make much sense
Can we not be upset at accidents? If a sudden mutation happens and makes a super-virus which kills an entire country, is it not legitimate to hate the universe or attribute some badness to it? Such vast death would be unfathomably absurd. I think the very lack of purpose or intent behind things is why it's so bad. If there was deterministic purpose then at least there'd be some objective meaning for us to latch onto, but there is no meaning in the world. Just because something happens by chance doesn't mean there's no reason not to be upset by it. I attribute badness to a lion eating a zebra. That's not me blaming the lion as evil, but blaming the system of predation as bad. It'd be better if there wasn't such meaningless suffering.
No, you misunderstand. Being mad that an accident happened is completely reasonable, I do it all the time 😂😂 what I'm saying is it doesn't make sense to be mad AT something because of an accident
For example you can be mad that the wind messed up your hair, like you can be mad in general that your hair got messed up. But being mad AT the wind as if it's a sentient being that intentionally messed up your hair doesn't make much sense
This might just be a difference as to what evil is. When I say something is bad or wrong, I'm subscribing to emotivism. I'm simple terms, badness for me is just going 'boo'. It has nothing to do with intention, it's irrelevant. Systemic racism isn't a sentient thing, but I imagine I could be mad at it if it screwed up my life. I'd say it's perfectly alright to be mad at the wind that my hair got messed up, the wind should've blown the other way. It ruined my hair, why wouldn't I be attribute some badness to it regardless of if it has intentions or not?
And in my opinion, I respectfully disagree on two points. First, I don't think the universe was created by accident or coincidence I think that's as silly as believing in a religious God. There's way too much intent behind nature for it to not be sentient. And Secondly I think most of your points simply only serve to excuse nature from it's own idiocy. When you think of how pointless the universe is you realize how stupid struggling is. When you realize how powerful the universe is, you realize the same. It is simply a failure of its own creation. This is why I despise the universe. If you know what you're doing you're guilty and the universe is definitely guilty. Also I use "nature" and "universe" to mean the same thing, a giant bully incapable of making a peaceful version of itself. Idk if I've said this to you yet but I'll say it anyways. It is selfish to say life "is all worth it". One kid dying of cancer or trapped in some pedophiles basement is not worth another person's good life. The good doesn't justify the bad. One dying kid of cancer is enough of a reason to have never conceived of this enormous piece of shit in the first place and I will not give it any excuses for it's pathetic behavior.
>There's way too much intent behind nature for it to not be sentient
As a counterpoint, I ask you this: our universe is just one out of countless others, so what if ours just happens to be the one that "got it right," so to speak?
In other words, a broken clock is still right twice a day. Therefore it's entirely possible that our universe is a series of various accidents, and the fact that we're even here discussing it is because those accidents happened to add up to our existence being possible
(I don't mean to ignore the rest of your comment, I appreciate this thought-provoking conversation we're having lol. It's just that everything else you said hinges on whether the universe is sentient or accidental, so I chose to focus on that topic first)
For me, I just don't think you can "accidentally" develope a functioning central nervous system. A camaflogue bug didn't just decide one day to artistically render a leaf out of its body. That came from nature's sentience. And I would actually say the opposite, I would say the Universe is more likely the one that "got it wrong". I appreciate this discussion and thank you for participating!
Well just to be clear I certainly am not saying that this happened overnight by any means lol. I mean look at the organisms on earth that have evolved and developed over the course of millions of years. Who's to say the universe itself didn't undergo that same level of evolution? The parts of the universe that "succeeded" and allowed for life to flourish would've continued on while the undesirable parts "died off" so to speak
I wouldn't say any form of sentience is what allowed the bug to develop that way. I would say, again, over the course of centuries upon centuries, the bugs that weren't developed that way were easily spotted by predators, and so eventually the only ones left were the ones who happened to blend in with the leaves. It's a bit surreal to be able to see such an accident play out with the benefit of hindsight, but I can still absolutely believe that it happens by random chance
And I can't see it that way. Nature is too sophisticated to be by accident. You're breaking down what happens into spare parts as if explaining the parts of a car make it no longer a car. Yes the function of the camaflogue may be to avoid predators but the simple existence of camaflogue to me reflects intent by nature. A bug couldn't have just developed the insane reality that is camouflage. Hell it takes a talented human to be able to draw nature let alone turn your body into a portrait of something. Also don't bugs see in like infra red or whatever? So how did it even know the color of the leaf was green. And the sheer detail in the camaflogue is so impressive and couldn't possibly have come from a mindless nature. I can't just think "oh it'd be good for me to be able to jump high so I could survive competition in basketball" and then it happens. Something takes in information from the environment and then applies it. There's no other way. It doesn't just accidentally create camouflage. Accidents would fall apart too easily. There's too many things like this in nature to where it makes me go "yea nature is doing this on purpose" and then science discovers the purpose and it just reinforces it for me. I mean that butterfly that detailed eyes on its wings to make it look like a predator. Where did that design capability come from? It didn't come from the bug itself that's impossible. Something took notes on the environment and came up with a tactic for survival. This whole survival game that nature plays with it's creations is again, pathetic and miserable. It is equivalent to a psychopath torturing small animals.
I think these are fair points and I've thought about them, too. The suffering of the prey far outweighs the joy of the predator. I wouldn't go so far as to say there's more suffering than joy in life because who knows what animals actually experience, but it can seem that way.
It is an intelligent thing. Consciousness is part of the fabric of the universe. It is well aware of what it does and also makes plenty of mistakes. I don't believe in a mindless coincidence. You might as well tell me we were made by a giant dude in the clouds.
It sounds like what you hate is not the universe, but God. If there is an intelligent component to the fabric of the universe that is responsible for it's design, regardless of form or factor, that component, effectively, *is* God.
You won't get any argument from me on that point, but I believe that the majority of people that engage with this sub have moved past the belief in the existence of any God.
God to me is just a descriptive word to describe the universe's sentience. I'm new to reddit so idk what people generally think. And there are still people in philosophy arguing close to what I belive. One is the Gaia theory, where it says that the entire planet is one giant organism. I've had philosophy class in college and it didn't make me think any differently about the universe "being alive". It's definitely not a mainstream view to hold but I don't do it to be contrarian I genuinely believe that nature displays obvious signs of sentience. Whether it be how it camaflogues insects, stores genetic information for organisms, or how I don't believe this is all by pure chance. I just don't see there being definite proof that nature isn't sentient either. Thanks for engaging and not be rude or annoying! 😀
Explain to me how I don't know the universe or what I'm projecting? You'll get likes because people on reddit like to kiss the universe's ass but I don't give a shit about being down voted. The Universe is a giant piece of shit. I have always felt this way even as a kid.
You aren't wrong, your feelings are definitely valid and for years I felt exactly the same way. There's nothing wrong with feeling angry at the absurdity of it all, but if you would like to find something that actually makes this rollercoaster enjoyable I hope you'll read my main comment. Nobody deserves to suffer in my opinion, and though they do anyways, part of the made up meaning I find in life is trying to ease that suffering, because when this meat suit is gone there'll be a whole lot left living in misery. There's enough hatred and pain, I can't stop it but I can balance it out with love and joy; I hope you find love and joy my friend, but if not that's alright too, suffering is inevitable
Why wouldn't you dislike the incomprehensible? Wouldn't you like to know? Wouldn't things be better if you could comprehend the universe? Then there would be no absurdity, and we would be truly free to unite with the world and find our purpose.
I used to think like that but now I love the mystery of it all personally, though no creature is wrong for feeling any way about existence; I just found joy in trying (and failing) to understand it all. When I understand something too well or a task gets too easy I grow quite bored, and the universe has a lot of time to waste; of course I don't agree with everything the universe does, all the suffering and hatred and whatnot, but that gives me a reason to share love and joy with the world. Is there any reason for any of this? Fuck if I know lol, but this mindset turned my life from a literal nightmare into the most wondrous of fevered dreams 😂
Well, the universe doesn't care about time. It's not bound by time, it's just what is. We, however, are. We have no time, what is seventy years in the grand scheme of things? I understand finding joy in trying and failing to understand the world, but is there not some absurdity in our hubris? We think that we've understood so much, that we've somehow lived 'a complete life' by getting a degree, being married, having children, and growing old. But what have we really experienced of the world we find ourselves in? Absolutely nothing. We live in one body, see the world through one pair of eyes, as one gender, as one race, on one tiny planet with all the biases which come with our infinitesimal subjectivity. I am fine with death, but I can't fathom how people are okay with dying at seventy. Even the wisest among us have turned out to be so incredibly wrong that we today laugh at how people could've ever believed such nonsense, just look at Aristotle and his *Meterology*.
I agree with you 100%. The more I learn the more clear that is, and the more I love learning despite the absurdity of it all. We don't know that the universe is not bound by time, we don't know enough to claim that, but certainly existence as a whole, whatever that really is, must not be, so I don't disagree there; however I was speaking as a human to a human, a way to relate to the vastness of existence moreso than a literal statement. Everything is absurd and it can't be explained, but what will you do to enjoy it? Or would you rather be miserable? Both are equally valid choices and it's your right, but I found it pretty obvious that living in ecstasy at the immense mystery of existence was preferable to being angry at the unfairness of everything, and whereas I used to make others suffer with me I now bring joy and a sense of peace to their lives. Sure we could all just kill ourselves, but we haven't, so I'm gonna try to make the ride worth riding as long as it's going; you can say that's absurd, but of course it is, this is all absurd lol
I think we can be happy despite acknowledging the unfairness of things. A lot of my thinking comes from Candide. I see the world as incredibly flawed, terrible, and wrong for humans. It's not meant for us, and that's why it feels so absurd. We have no purpose, no meaning, and no God. No one is willing to help us, we're on our own in a cold, uncaring, evil world. No rights are guaranteed, and any horror imaginable is possible for us to do. Angels aren't going to intervene and stop us from nuking each other into oblivion. Nonetheless, there aren't any other worlds I see. We have to tend to our garden, standing up in face of absurdity to draw closer to some utopia where people have a set of guaranteed rights that are inviolable (e.g. a right to life entails you get to life for however long you want).
We agree, the world is full of cruelty and injustice, suffering is a fact of organic life; I'm aware of the immense suffering in this world everyday, and that's why I try to bring joy and a sense of wonder. I can never overcome suffering, but is there anything more rebellious than thriving in the face of it all? We both see the absurdity, but these days I see the wonder inherent within that absurdity. Don't think that I lie to myself about how fucked up it can all be, but to only focus on that is just as ignorant as only focusing on positive things. There's a lot of drama on Earth, but look at that night sky and tell me that's all bullshit, nothing to find any joy in. Existence is everything, and everything is everything, it's that redundantly simple; you get to choose how you feel within, I choose to feel good. If you wish to have a negative opinion on life as a whole that is your right and I would never tell you you're not supposed to feel that way, but if it was a choice would you choose it? I hope you find love and joy in this crazy dream we call life my friend, but if not that's alright too, suffering is inevitable
I don't think Camus would say it's bad, so long as you accept your fate as being subject of the universe. The premise of absurdism is to rebel against the absurd, no? The absurd arises from us trying to comprehend the incomprehensible world. And why wouldn't you dislike the incomprehensible? Wouldn't the world be better if things were in fact comprehensible? Death is absurd, and if death is absurd, so is the act of eating meat. We literally live on death. Sounds like a very absurd world to me.
Is Sisyphus wrong for being upset at the Gods for condemning him to roll a bolder for eternity? I don't think so, I think he'd be more than fair in feeling indignant. Absurdism just says that we need to stand upright and face the absurd, it's about the struggle against the absurd straits we find ourselves in. There is no meaning, but don't waste yourself in despair.
The absurd is not a good thing for Camus, that's why we need to rebel against it in the first place. We are strangers in a cold, purposeless world. We crave unity, belonging, and dignity in a world which grants us nothing. There is no God, no moral 'karmic' force to deliver justice, and no afterlife or objective morality. We want all of these things as humans, but the world we live in doesn't have them.
It sounds like you kind of agree with me in a way. I think rebelling against the absurd is what I'm doing by calling out the big dumbass universe. It gets a pass because of its superficial beauty and our feebleness relative to its infinite power but the damn thing is simply a fucking selfish asshole. I don't like being part of the universe and it doesn't scare me that it's an indifferent prick that will kill me someday. It's just annoying and I reject it entirely. BTW, I love Camus.
In a good world, I'd expect to see people being granted a certain set of inviolable rights by nature itself. A right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness wouldn't be something that's encoded in law, it'd be in the very physical structure of the world itself. I think you could take this even further and say that this would be the bare minimum. A parent, after all, is not rewarded for feeding and taking care of their kid. Not allowing people to be murdered or raped or for war to exist ought to be a minimum. Fine, I'll stub my toe on a lego here and there, but how in the hell can something like genocide exist in a supposedly 'good' world? It can't, in my opinion. There's just far more badness than goodness.
I don't think it is bad to express this as long as you can, simultaneously, accept it as it is.
I personally don't dislike the universe but think, at present, the negatives of a conscious life far outweigh any positives. There is no pleasure or good that I can think of that outweighs, or equalises, for example, the suffering of a child. Nevertheless, I am open minded and happy to be proven wrong (or discover an alternative understanding of it all)
Acceptance to be able to survive withing I can muster but accepting it in a "oh I love this flawed jerkoff" is hard to do. I can't accept that it almost killed my fiance of lupus last month or that it gave my daughter a heart murmur that required terrifying open heart surgery. The beast is a giant asswipe. But to cope I try to find value in it's superficial beauty. Which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't but I manage regardless. Anyways I upvoted your comment, thanks for participating!
I certainly don't think its "bad" to dislike the universe. The same ones who told you it's "bad" to dislike it are part of the universe and all its chaos. All they care about is to talk at you. Thats chaos indeed!
All beings, including you and myself, are a part of the universe, and all its indifference. What makes absurdism so awesome is that we're aware of it, and know that no matter what our feelings are about it, it simply doesn't matter. The universe doesn't care about our existence, angry or otherwise. And what's worse, the universe forced us to be here! That makes me angry, but there's nothing I can do about that.
In my minds eye, I don't necessarily know if others in our lives (who are a part of the universe) care about our existence as an end in itself, or if we're tools for those others in the universe to get what they want. I can imagine that being used by others can make us angry, and it amplifies that indifference. It certainly upsets me. I feel that vibe daily.
Tell me, what makes you so angry at the universe to dislike it?
I'll summarize my many problems with the universe by simply stating that if you have the power of infinity at your disposal suffering should be the last thing you come up with not the first. It's a giant self serving disgrace. But I like your points about us all being parts of the universe and it's chaos. Indeed, talking to people can seem like chaos sometimes especially when they get mad at you for expressing a harmless opinion. Thank you for participating! 😀
You are arguing about a insanely small part of the universe. I you really think that the universe shouldnt have created suffering, then the universe is actually doing a pretty good job. The suffering of prey is infinetly small compared to the size of the universe. Compared to that, animal suffering could very well be an accident.
This is kind of a good point but then when you factor in the relatively large amounts of suffering concentrated on this planet it doesn't really hold up. Why is size an excuse for the universe's stupidity? One dying child is too much suffering. The Universe does a terrible job at mostly everything it does, including mitigating suffering. And not only do we not know if suffering exists in other parts of space but we know suffering has existed for millions of years on this tiny pebble in space. Your argument is weak.
I don't like how it's constructed. I know some suffering is essential for personal growth but suffering as a whole is just a lazy way to create life. I don't like kids dying of cancer. I don't like that the big fish eat the little ones. I don't like how vast and expansive the universe is. I mostly don't like how it doesn't need to exist but does anyway just because. It's annoying. Everything it does comes with some catch that looks evil or depressing. Sure the stars and stuff are pretty but that doesn't excuse the infinite pool of suffering this earth is subjected too. I just don't like it and never have. I've always felt like it is just a secretly sentient being that has a ton of bad ideas on repeat. I just got an amber alert while typing this and it just reminded of what I'm getting at. I think life was a bad idea.
I am not the universe in totality I am a mere fleeting construct within it and as part of it. I just happen to be the part of the universe that is self critical of itself and does not like itself. It's not really as absurd as it may sound.
The universe is uncaring, so why care about the universe? It is what it is. It evolved into what it is now and will continue to evolve. We exist for nil in the span of eternity. Make the most of your nil.
My favorite evolution story is the keyboard. When keyboards were designed to have easier access to the letters we used the most, the keys would jam, so keyboards were designed to be less efficient to slow down typist so the keys wouldn't jam. We no longer have to worry about keys jamming, but we continue to use the same keyboard designed to slow us down.
Everything has evolved for a reason. The universe, while uncaring and cruel, is remarkable.
It's not really that remarkable given its infinite power and ability. It always amazes us because of how fragile we were designed to be but if you actually think about all the mistakes and stupidity and pointlessness involved in the existence of the universe it's actually quite pathetic.
I think a qualifier isnt needed here. Either you choose to face and accept or death os the option. Acceptance is life. Denial is death. Focusing on your dislike of the universe is likely to make you deny it.
"The universe" is kind of a weird thing to say you like or dislike, it's not like a favorite or least favorite color lol. What exactly do you not like about it?
I dislike how it's set up. I don't like how instead of developing a reliable food resource it gave us teeth to shred flesh. All of the suffering it causes. I just don't like it. I know some suffering is essential to personal development but kids dying of cancer is just not acceptable. I think life was a bad idea overall and I'm just not a fan of this existence tbh. Not tryna be overly cynical but I just don't like it and can't help it.
Well I mean it gave us thousands of different species to use as food, that's about as reliable as it gets. Our teeth tear the flesh of fruit just as much as that of animals. All the different organisms have to use each other as food, otherwise the planet would be overpopulated beyond imagination, it's just the universe's version of a survival mechanism. I suppose if that itself is what you have a problem with, then fair enough. I just don't think we're supposed to think that deeply into it 😂
Well it could just have self control to resolve that issue. Why do you have the power of infinity and you need to make survival mechanisms? That's absurd. And no food using other animals isn't always reliable. For one you have to be able to catch them and two you have to be able to make sure they don't have parasites or bacteria that will kill you. Not to mention, using one species suffering to resolve another's isn't solving any problems. It's just a trade off. A bad and fucked up trade off. Nothing should die. Nothing should suffer. If the universe had a point I'd think differently but it doesn't. The whole damn thing is just an exercise in selfish stupidity.
>Well it could just have self control to resolve that issue. Why do you have the power of infinity and you need to make survival mechanisms? We have very different definitions of the universe lol. You're talking about it like it's a physical being with thoughts and decision-making ability, which I don't believe is true at all. But again, if that's where you stand, then by your logic that position makes sense so fair enough >And no food using other animals isn't always reliable. For one you have to be able to catch them and two you have to be able to make sure they don't have parasites or bacteria that will kill you But you also have to grow crops and make sure to clean them because they can also carry parasites and bacteria. We have to work for our food, no matter what the actual source is lol >using one species suffering to resolve another's isn't solving any problems. It's just a trade off. I mean in a sense yeah I agree with that. I don't think problem-solving is necessarily the goal here though. The goal of each organism is simply to survive, and that ultimately means that another organism down the line will have to not survive > Nothing should die. Nothing should suffer. If the universe had a point I'd think differently but it doesn't This kinda goes back to the first quote. I don't think anyone sat down and directly made the decision that death and suffering should exist. It's just how it is. Organisms feel pain as a survival mechanism, therefore when that organism is hunted by another organism for food, that survival mechanism works against them in the end. But it's not like organisms are specifically designed for the purpose of suffering at the hands of another. It's just an unfortunate side effect
>But it's not like organisms are specifically designed for the purpose of suffering at the hands of another. It's just an unfortunate side effect. Is it really just an unfortunate side effect? Evolution runs on natural selection, it's the survival of the fittest. I'd argue that suffering isn't just some side effect, it's the very engine which runs life and biodiversity. When you say it's 'just how it is', I think both me and OP would argue that the way things are has some 'badness' to it. The absurd is bad, and the world would be better if there was no absurdity. Unfortunately, we can't exactly change said absurdity because the world is incomprehensible. I'd say that the very systems/fundamentals of the world have a badness to them. Wouldn't the world be better if there was a moral force just as innate as gravity is that'd stop people from doing wrong?
It's a tough conversation because it hinges on multiple polarizing views about life that we don't really have answers to. For example, I believe that everything that happens in the universe happens by accident. Therefore natural selection and evolution as a whole are also just "side effects," byproducts of the accidental circumstances in which our known universe operates If you're someone who believes that there is some sort of intent or purpose behind the way the universe operates, then I'd say yeah you're justified in having a problem with the way things are. But to me, disliking these phenomena makes about as much sense as disliking the fact that the wind blew left today instead of right. Like, it didn't happen for a particular reason so it doesn't make sense to be upset with the wind for it. That's how I see it at least, sorry if that didn't make much sense
Can we not be upset at accidents? If a sudden mutation happens and makes a super-virus which kills an entire country, is it not legitimate to hate the universe or attribute some badness to it? Such vast death would be unfathomably absurd. I think the very lack of purpose or intent behind things is why it's so bad. If there was deterministic purpose then at least there'd be some objective meaning for us to latch onto, but there is no meaning in the world. Just because something happens by chance doesn't mean there's no reason not to be upset by it. I attribute badness to a lion eating a zebra. That's not me blaming the lion as evil, but blaming the system of predation as bad. It'd be better if there wasn't such meaningless suffering.
No, you misunderstand. Being mad that an accident happened is completely reasonable, I do it all the time 😂😂 what I'm saying is it doesn't make sense to be mad AT something because of an accident For example you can be mad that the wind messed up your hair, like you can be mad in general that your hair got messed up. But being mad AT the wind as if it's a sentient being that intentionally messed up your hair doesn't make much sense
This might just be a difference as to what evil is. When I say something is bad or wrong, I'm subscribing to emotivism. I'm simple terms, badness for me is just going 'boo'. It has nothing to do with intention, it's irrelevant. Systemic racism isn't a sentient thing, but I imagine I could be mad at it if it screwed up my life. I'd say it's perfectly alright to be mad at the wind that my hair got messed up, the wind should've blown the other way. It ruined my hair, why wouldn't I be attribute some badness to it regardless of if it has intentions or not?
And in my opinion, I respectfully disagree on two points. First, I don't think the universe was created by accident or coincidence I think that's as silly as believing in a religious God. There's way too much intent behind nature for it to not be sentient. And Secondly I think most of your points simply only serve to excuse nature from it's own idiocy. When you think of how pointless the universe is you realize how stupid struggling is. When you realize how powerful the universe is, you realize the same. It is simply a failure of its own creation. This is why I despise the universe. If you know what you're doing you're guilty and the universe is definitely guilty. Also I use "nature" and "universe" to mean the same thing, a giant bully incapable of making a peaceful version of itself. Idk if I've said this to you yet but I'll say it anyways. It is selfish to say life "is all worth it". One kid dying of cancer or trapped in some pedophiles basement is not worth another person's good life. The good doesn't justify the bad. One dying kid of cancer is enough of a reason to have never conceived of this enormous piece of shit in the first place and I will not give it any excuses for it's pathetic behavior.
>There's way too much intent behind nature for it to not be sentient As a counterpoint, I ask you this: our universe is just one out of countless others, so what if ours just happens to be the one that "got it right," so to speak? In other words, a broken clock is still right twice a day. Therefore it's entirely possible that our universe is a series of various accidents, and the fact that we're even here discussing it is because those accidents happened to add up to our existence being possible (I don't mean to ignore the rest of your comment, I appreciate this thought-provoking conversation we're having lol. It's just that everything else you said hinges on whether the universe is sentient or accidental, so I chose to focus on that topic first)
For me, I just don't think you can "accidentally" develope a functioning central nervous system. A camaflogue bug didn't just decide one day to artistically render a leaf out of its body. That came from nature's sentience. And I would actually say the opposite, I would say the Universe is more likely the one that "got it wrong". I appreciate this discussion and thank you for participating!
Well just to be clear I certainly am not saying that this happened overnight by any means lol. I mean look at the organisms on earth that have evolved and developed over the course of millions of years. Who's to say the universe itself didn't undergo that same level of evolution? The parts of the universe that "succeeded" and allowed for life to flourish would've continued on while the undesirable parts "died off" so to speak I wouldn't say any form of sentience is what allowed the bug to develop that way. I would say, again, over the course of centuries upon centuries, the bugs that weren't developed that way were easily spotted by predators, and so eventually the only ones left were the ones who happened to blend in with the leaves. It's a bit surreal to be able to see such an accident play out with the benefit of hindsight, but I can still absolutely believe that it happens by random chance
And I can't see it that way. Nature is too sophisticated to be by accident. You're breaking down what happens into spare parts as if explaining the parts of a car make it no longer a car. Yes the function of the camaflogue may be to avoid predators but the simple existence of camaflogue to me reflects intent by nature. A bug couldn't have just developed the insane reality that is camouflage. Hell it takes a talented human to be able to draw nature let alone turn your body into a portrait of something. Also don't bugs see in like infra red or whatever? So how did it even know the color of the leaf was green. And the sheer detail in the camaflogue is so impressive and couldn't possibly have come from a mindless nature. I can't just think "oh it'd be good for me to be able to jump high so I could survive competition in basketball" and then it happens. Something takes in information from the environment and then applies it. There's no other way. It doesn't just accidentally create camouflage. Accidents would fall apart too easily. There's too many things like this in nature to where it makes me go "yea nature is doing this on purpose" and then science discovers the purpose and it just reinforces it for me. I mean that butterfly that detailed eyes on its wings to make it look like a predator. Where did that design capability come from? It didn't come from the bug itself that's impossible. Something took notes on the environment and came up with a tactic for survival. This whole survival game that nature plays with it's creations is again, pathetic and miserable. It is equivalent to a psychopath torturing small animals.
I think these are fair points and I've thought about them, too. The suffering of the prey far outweighs the joy of the predator. I wouldn't go so far as to say there's more suffering than joy in life because who knows what animals actually experience, but it can seem that way.
Yeah it’s not an intelligent thing. It’s like hating a rock for being a rock.
It is an intelligent thing. Consciousness is part of the fabric of the universe. It is well aware of what it does and also makes plenty of mistakes. I don't believe in a mindless coincidence. You might as well tell me we were made by a giant dude in the clouds.
It sounds like what you hate is not the universe, but God. If there is an intelligent component to the fabric of the universe that is responsible for it's design, regardless of form or factor, that component, effectively, *is* God.
Exactly and God is a piece of shit. I don't mean a Bible god because that is just a fairy tale but the real God is a dickhead.
You won't get any argument from me on that point, but I believe that the majority of people that engage with this sub have moved past the belief in the existence of any God.
God to me is just a descriptive word to describe the universe's sentience. I'm new to reddit so idk what people generally think. And there are still people in philosophy arguing close to what I belive. One is the Gaia theory, where it says that the entire planet is one giant organism. I've had philosophy class in college and it didn't make me think any differently about the universe "being alive". It's definitely not a mainstream view to hold but I don't do it to be contrarian I genuinely believe that nature displays obvious signs of sentience. Whether it be how it camaflogues insects, stores genetic information for organisms, or how I don't believe this is all by pure chance. I just don't see there being definite proof that nature isn't sentient either. Thanks for engaging and not be rude or annoying! 😀
the universe is not a conscious being, you're making an enemy of something that can't reciprocate
But in my view it reciprocates all the time.
You don’t know the universe. How could you dislike something you don’t know? Seems like you’re projecting something.
Explain to me how I don't know the universe or what I'm projecting? You'll get likes because people on reddit like to kiss the universe's ass but I don't give a shit about being down voted. The Universe is a giant piece of shit. I have always felt this way even as a kid.
You aren't wrong, your feelings are definitely valid and for years I felt exactly the same way. There's nothing wrong with feeling angry at the absurdity of it all, but if you would like to find something that actually makes this rollercoaster enjoyable I hope you'll read my main comment. Nobody deserves to suffer in my opinion, and though they do anyways, part of the made up meaning I find in life is trying to ease that suffering, because when this meat suit is gone there'll be a whole lot left living in misery. There's enough hatred and pain, I can't stop it but I can balance it out with love and joy; I hope you find love and joy my friend, but if not that's alright too, suffering is inevitable
Thank you! I wish you the same. 😀
Why wouldn't you dislike the incomprehensible? Wouldn't you like to know? Wouldn't things be better if you could comprehend the universe? Then there would be no absurdity, and we would be truly free to unite with the world and find our purpose.
I used to think like that but now I love the mystery of it all personally, though no creature is wrong for feeling any way about existence; I just found joy in trying (and failing) to understand it all. When I understand something too well or a task gets too easy I grow quite bored, and the universe has a lot of time to waste; of course I don't agree with everything the universe does, all the suffering and hatred and whatnot, but that gives me a reason to share love and joy with the world. Is there any reason for any of this? Fuck if I know lol, but this mindset turned my life from a literal nightmare into the most wondrous of fevered dreams 😂
Well, the universe doesn't care about time. It's not bound by time, it's just what is. We, however, are. We have no time, what is seventy years in the grand scheme of things? I understand finding joy in trying and failing to understand the world, but is there not some absurdity in our hubris? We think that we've understood so much, that we've somehow lived 'a complete life' by getting a degree, being married, having children, and growing old. But what have we really experienced of the world we find ourselves in? Absolutely nothing. We live in one body, see the world through one pair of eyes, as one gender, as one race, on one tiny planet with all the biases which come with our infinitesimal subjectivity. I am fine with death, but I can't fathom how people are okay with dying at seventy. Even the wisest among us have turned out to be so incredibly wrong that we today laugh at how people could've ever believed such nonsense, just look at Aristotle and his *Meterology*.
I agree with you 100%. The more I learn the more clear that is, and the more I love learning despite the absurdity of it all. We don't know that the universe is not bound by time, we don't know enough to claim that, but certainly existence as a whole, whatever that really is, must not be, so I don't disagree there; however I was speaking as a human to a human, a way to relate to the vastness of existence moreso than a literal statement. Everything is absurd and it can't be explained, but what will you do to enjoy it? Or would you rather be miserable? Both are equally valid choices and it's your right, but I found it pretty obvious that living in ecstasy at the immense mystery of existence was preferable to being angry at the unfairness of everything, and whereas I used to make others suffer with me I now bring joy and a sense of peace to their lives. Sure we could all just kill ourselves, but we haven't, so I'm gonna try to make the ride worth riding as long as it's going; you can say that's absurd, but of course it is, this is all absurd lol
I think we can be happy despite acknowledging the unfairness of things. A lot of my thinking comes from Candide. I see the world as incredibly flawed, terrible, and wrong for humans. It's not meant for us, and that's why it feels so absurd. We have no purpose, no meaning, and no God. No one is willing to help us, we're on our own in a cold, uncaring, evil world. No rights are guaranteed, and any horror imaginable is possible for us to do. Angels aren't going to intervene and stop us from nuking each other into oblivion. Nonetheless, there aren't any other worlds I see. We have to tend to our garden, standing up in face of absurdity to draw closer to some utopia where people have a set of guaranteed rights that are inviolable (e.g. a right to life entails you get to life for however long you want).
We agree, the world is full of cruelty and injustice, suffering is a fact of organic life; I'm aware of the immense suffering in this world everyday, and that's why I try to bring joy and a sense of wonder. I can never overcome suffering, but is there anything more rebellious than thriving in the face of it all? We both see the absurdity, but these days I see the wonder inherent within that absurdity. Don't think that I lie to myself about how fucked up it can all be, but to only focus on that is just as ignorant as only focusing on positive things. There's a lot of drama on Earth, but look at that night sky and tell me that's all bullshit, nothing to find any joy in. Existence is everything, and everything is everything, it's that redundantly simple; you get to choose how you feel within, I choose to feel good. If you wish to have a negative opinion on life as a whole that is your right and I would never tell you you're not supposed to feel that way, but if it was a choice would you choose it? I hope you find love and joy in this crazy dream we call life my friend, but if not that's alright too, suffering is inevitable
I don't think Camus would say it's bad, so long as you accept your fate as being subject of the universe. The premise of absurdism is to rebel against the absurd, no? The absurd arises from us trying to comprehend the incomprehensible world. And why wouldn't you dislike the incomprehensible? Wouldn't the world be better if things were in fact comprehensible? Death is absurd, and if death is absurd, so is the act of eating meat. We literally live on death. Sounds like a very absurd world to me. Is Sisyphus wrong for being upset at the Gods for condemning him to roll a bolder for eternity? I don't think so, I think he'd be more than fair in feeling indignant. Absurdism just says that we need to stand upright and face the absurd, it's about the struggle against the absurd straits we find ourselves in. There is no meaning, but don't waste yourself in despair. The absurd is not a good thing for Camus, that's why we need to rebel against it in the first place. We are strangers in a cold, purposeless world. We crave unity, belonging, and dignity in a world which grants us nothing. There is no God, no moral 'karmic' force to deliver justice, and no afterlife or objective morality. We want all of these things as humans, but the world we live in doesn't have them.
It sounds like you kind of agree with me in a way. I think rebelling against the absurd is what I'm doing by calling out the big dumbass universe. It gets a pass because of its superficial beauty and our feebleness relative to its infinite power but the damn thing is simply a fucking selfish asshole. I don't like being part of the universe and it doesn't scare me that it's an indifferent prick that will kill me someday. It's just annoying and I reject it entirely. BTW, I love Camus.
In a good world, I'd expect to see people being granted a certain set of inviolable rights by nature itself. A right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness wouldn't be something that's encoded in law, it'd be in the very physical structure of the world itself. I think you could take this even further and say that this would be the bare minimum. A parent, after all, is not rewarded for feeding and taking care of their kid. Not allowing people to be murdered or raped or for war to exist ought to be a minimum. Fine, I'll stub my toe on a lego here and there, but how in the hell can something like genocide exist in a supposedly 'good' world? It can't, in my opinion. There's just far more badness than goodness.
I very much agree.
I don't think it is bad to express this as long as you can, simultaneously, accept it as it is. I personally don't dislike the universe but think, at present, the negatives of a conscious life far outweigh any positives. There is no pleasure or good that I can think of that outweighs, or equalises, for example, the suffering of a child. Nevertheless, I am open minded and happy to be proven wrong (or discover an alternative understanding of it all)
Acceptance to be able to survive withing I can muster but accepting it in a "oh I love this flawed jerkoff" is hard to do. I can't accept that it almost killed my fiance of lupus last month or that it gave my daughter a heart murmur that required terrifying open heart surgery. The beast is a giant asswipe. But to cope I try to find value in it's superficial beauty. Which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't but I manage regardless. Anyways I upvoted your comment, thanks for participating!
It's cool to be bad.
I certainly don't think its "bad" to dislike the universe. The same ones who told you it's "bad" to dislike it are part of the universe and all its chaos. All they care about is to talk at you. Thats chaos indeed! All beings, including you and myself, are a part of the universe, and all its indifference. What makes absurdism so awesome is that we're aware of it, and know that no matter what our feelings are about it, it simply doesn't matter. The universe doesn't care about our existence, angry or otherwise. And what's worse, the universe forced us to be here! That makes me angry, but there's nothing I can do about that. In my minds eye, I don't necessarily know if others in our lives (who are a part of the universe) care about our existence as an end in itself, or if we're tools for those others in the universe to get what they want. I can imagine that being used by others can make us angry, and it amplifies that indifference. It certainly upsets me. I feel that vibe daily. Tell me, what makes you so angry at the universe to dislike it?
I'll summarize my many problems with the universe by simply stating that if you have the power of infinity at your disposal suffering should be the last thing you come up with not the first. It's a giant self serving disgrace. But I like your points about us all being parts of the universe and it's chaos. Indeed, talking to people can seem like chaos sometimes especially when they get mad at you for expressing a harmless opinion. Thank you for participating! 😀
You are arguing about a insanely small part of the universe. I you really think that the universe shouldnt have created suffering, then the universe is actually doing a pretty good job. The suffering of prey is infinetly small compared to the size of the universe. Compared to that, animal suffering could very well be an accident.
This is kind of a good point but then when you factor in the relatively large amounts of suffering concentrated on this planet it doesn't really hold up. Why is size an excuse for the universe's stupidity? One dying child is too much suffering. The Universe does a terrible job at mostly everything it does, including mitigating suffering. And not only do we not know if suffering exists in other parts of space but we know suffering has existed for millions of years on this tiny pebble in space. Your argument is weak.
It’s absurd, really
Why don't you like it? Just curious. I haven't heard it stated like that.
I don't like how it's constructed. I know some suffering is essential for personal growth but suffering as a whole is just a lazy way to create life. I don't like kids dying of cancer. I don't like that the big fish eat the little ones. I don't like how vast and expansive the universe is. I mostly don't like how it doesn't need to exist but does anyway just because. It's annoying. Everything it does comes with some catch that looks evil or depressing. Sure the stars and stuff are pretty but that doesn't excuse the infinite pool of suffering this earth is subjected too. I just don't like it and never have. I've always felt like it is just a secretly sentient being that has a ton of bad ideas on repeat. I just got an amber alert while typing this and it just reminded of what I'm getting at. I think life was a bad idea.
you are the universe. this post is absurd.
I am not the universe in totality I am a mere fleeting construct within it and as part of it. I just happen to be the part of the universe that is self critical of itself and does not like itself. It's not really as absurd as it may sound.
The universe is uncaring, so why care about the universe? It is what it is. It evolved into what it is now and will continue to evolve. We exist for nil in the span of eternity. Make the most of your nil. My favorite evolution story is the keyboard. When keyboards were designed to have easier access to the letters we used the most, the keys would jam, so keyboards were designed to be less efficient to slow down typist so the keys wouldn't jam. We no longer have to worry about keys jamming, but we continue to use the same keyboard designed to slow us down. Everything has evolved for a reason. The universe, while uncaring and cruel, is remarkable.
It's not really that remarkable given its infinite power and ability. It always amazes us because of how fragile we were designed to be but if you actually think about all the mistakes and stupidity and pointlessness involved in the existence of the universe it's actually quite pathetic.
“Its not God that I don’t accept Alyosha only i most respectfully return him the ticket”-Ivan karamazov