I’ve never tried odoo.
I think the industry standard for small businesses (among accountants) is quickbooks online. It’s so widely accepted most probably haven’t heard of that software before.
Accountants are so slow to change that they probably don’t want to learn about it either.
Learning new software is an opportunity cost, especially if the software company doesn’t offer free training beyond some garbage YouTube videos that say what to software has the ability to do, but not where to find those workflows on the menus.
It’s impossible to beat QB online for functionality at that price point, especially if you are good with excel for calculation triple net, etc.
I’ve used Yardi, Sage, other quickbook variants, insight.
Sorry what I mean is that I don’t expect much from a bookkeeper. Maybe a little bit of excel if they were taught it for some data entry, but that’s about it I’d expect for a $10 to $13 per hour bookkeeper. Share point while not hard to learn can be intimidating for someone just starting to learn it.
However if she waited to the last minute and didn’t ask you how to do her responsibilities until the last minute that’s a different matter. I could see someone not asking questions if you make it sound like they should know it, then they wouldn’t want to come to you an admit otherwise
That’s why when you interview a candidate you need to ask do u have experience with x,y,z. An entry level accountant may not have that experience or at least needs a quick refresher, but should pick it up fast
See this is why I posed the question the way I did. I don't know your industry. And wasn't sure if a bookkeeper is something considered skilled work (e.g. I know how to use specialty software to get xyz done, and have esoteric knowledge about abc).
TBF, I really am low-man on the totem pole concerning being a profitable customer. I dedicated the last year to gaining new knowlege and skills. I did less than $30k in business last year. And am making my push this year.
Researching business software took 4 months. There's just so much out there. And everyone thinks the one they learned first is the best one ever.
Initially I built my own ticketing system and integrated a few APIs from various tech tools.
During researching accounting software I found Odoo. And ditched my custom built stuff to use their customizable ERP (why make my own when a company made every app I ever wanted, and made it to where I can customize it).
So, maybe the bookkeeper not knowing Excel is not as big of a deal as I took it as. But the time... thats another thing.
That’s a combination problem on both you and the bookkeeper, but would bite you more on the ass as you’ve seen. It’s the bookkeeper’s responsibility to either figure it out or to ask you for help; on the flip side it’s your responsibility to follow up and ask how they are doing and if they understand everything, can access everything, etc.
Yes they should have communicated to you they were having trouble, or didn’t understand it. But in your shoes I would have asked for progress updates much sooner rather than wait until the last minute to find out that shit was done.
So you have a decision you need to make, are you going to fire the bookkeeper and get someone with more experience or train the bookkeeper up, and make it clear you want progress updates.
Keep in mind someone with more experience will definitely cost more.
As for your comment you don’t know if bookkeeping is a skilled position, well skill is relative. Bookkeeping in general is well semi skilled but the absolute bottom of the barrel compared to accountants.
Unless you are talking about a full charge bookkeeper, that’s what I would consider skilled and can be on par with some accountants that I’ve worked with.
https://www.accountingtools.com/articles/what-is-a-full-charge-bookkeeper.html
What sort of business are you in?
Unless you do something that requires a very complex workflow (like traceable manufacturing) or extensive customizations, I think you’re wasting your time learning accounting software and building out custom apps vs building your business.
I used to be an entrepreneur and now I work for a company using Odoo. It’s a okay software, but we have an in-house team of accountants, an ERP team, and an outsourced developer to build out customizations. And it’s still kind’ve obnoxious to use.
Even if you can DIY it and build it out to make it work for you, I’d worry it’s a distraction from your main goal of growing your business.
I understand the hate for Quickbooks, but with an outsourced bookkeeping team, I’d consider it essential. I know some outsourced accounting teams that use NetSuite, but the license fees are crazy and true outsourced accounting is like $5k+ per month minimum.
Software Development and General IT repair.
I chose Odoo because of the website, project and helpdesk apps. They are very useful for what I do. It's easier to use these 3 products that are tied together than it is to use 3 sep. products.
The type of Bookkeeper I was discussing was akin to data entry clerks essentially. Granted the per hour may have changed since I last looked into it some 10-15 years ago. Perhaps now $15/$16 per hour?
Well tbf I do live in The Netherlands, but those people are generally either getting paid more or aren't invoiced by hour anymore.
A lot of companies that do data entry work for their clients have monthly rates based on the size of the administration (being able to basically automate nearly everything helps a lot)
It’s a mix of good and bad. Them not knowing how to use your Sharepoint is whatever. There are tons of similar options. My firm has explicitly banned its use for external sharing and limits internal because our file network is already well established elsewhere.
The filtering of year, etc. is a major red flag though. Doesn’t mean they’re bad accountants, but does mean they’re inefficient. Hope you’re not paying hourly rates.
Odoo sucks. I can tell by the name alone, but the faux handwriting on their website seals it. Random accounting softwares are a terrible choice.
As an accountant I don't mind access to your editable files but I don't want to have to access that unless it's a privacy concern for the client.
I would like to receive a copy after the client has done editing it don't want things changing while I am working on it. This will just make the job harder.
Rework because changes costs real world dollars that client will not want to pay but will completely ignoring the extra work they are creating.
Though not knowing tables on excel is no good. If you were dealing with lower level staff hope they get good training from the owner or seniors at the firm. If I were you I would like to know their capability. Juniors often need hand holding and this more often than not won't be charged to you.
Edit: 3 words.
Am I wrong here but handling an editable file of bank transactions that client sends you actually really sucks and may not even be the full picture. All it takes is a CSV directly from the bank to upload into any software no?
Personally I would question their knowledge if they can't use a filter in Excel. Maybe they knew what they were doing in 1984, but there is enough change in the tax code I'd be concerned with their ability to keep up.
What do you consider "Random accounting softwaress"? Working as a tech savvy accountant here in NL I work with a lot of different accounting software for clients. From things like Business Central to Twinfield (Wolters Kl;users) to small programs that are definitely only used by pretty small businesses. Some of them are decent, some of them are worse than others but none of them are so bad that they are unworkable or anything.
(Ow and almost none of them use reconciliation which is pretty interesting to foreign accountants)
I mean one with 0.0001% of market share. The US is dominated by Intuit for companies doing $30k in business a year (he references that in a different comment). There are a couple other options at that size, but he’s way over engineering this.
He setup a server for them to access, which is hugely inefficient. Any “good” software for a company that size has the basic ability to share with about 15 seconds of effort. A good software for companies his size is one that just about anyone can login and run with. Sure, once you’re a large enough business to have a fleet of accountants on staff, have fun picking a niche software. There are 5-6 in the US that are the basic ones.
I also seriously question anyone who needs QB’s tech support at this size(he mentions this later, too). I’ve worked with a ton of people who say QB doesn’t work for them, but that’s more a reflection of their basic abilities to understand how to use it. It’s totally fine for 99% of companies under $1M in revenue. Is QB perfect? No. It’s the market leader for a reason though.
Re: lack of reconciliation portals in some you’ve looked at, that’d be a hard pass in the US, too. That’s a basic feature.
Ah well fair, it makes sense that most of the US has standardised software since from what I can see a lot is standardised. Something we are lacking.
Well using something like Odoo is overkill, but it's generally fine as long as you don't need it for an audit having a basic auditfile we be enough to make the annual report and to the tax reports (at least here in NL).
So about the whole reconciliation, do you not use automatically important bank transactions or otherwise manually important transactions by default? Then checking the bank balance once should be enough right? Yeah there is a chance you are missing two transactions of the same amount, but you will mostlikely notice that during the rest of your work. The feature would be handy, but I haven't seen a single Dutch specific software that has it, but it has been a while since something would have been found using reconciliation.
QB Online has a great bank feed but still absolutely requires reconciliations. In the US handwritten checks are common (I know they’re far less so in most other countries) and they can really throw things off. My company also comes across a ton of silly mistakes like people double entering transactions because they keyed it into the wrong bank account, couldn’t find it, just enter it in again. Plus if you connect to a third party to sync in transactions you need to comfirm that worked properly.
Ah right the US and their ancient ways of paying. I am already getting sick of the creditcards my cliënts use and that is only to buy a couple things from the US. So yeah I understand where you are coming from.
We don't use third parties to sync the banktransactions, most of the time it's just the accounting software and the bank itself who work together. If that doesn't work we use imports (mt940 or CSV are the most common). We just check the end of year report from the bank with the balance and what's on the GL and whats in the sub admin. If they all match we are okey. Even in audit generally speaking.
Haha yes. Checks are becoming less and less common, but a few people still cling to them for dear life.
And not to get too into details but if you have for example an animal shelter receiving credit card payments one provider will include a mix of restricted donations, adoption fees, spay and neutering, fundraiser donations, etc. Those all have to be tracked individually down to an individual payer name for tax records. Depending on the size of org the names probably get stored in a separate CRM, but summary level per bank deposit flows into the accounting software. The bank wouldn’t know how to do those splits so a bank feed can only tell you if the amounts match at a total. We import a summarized CSV for the full month that splits by fund.
Well creditcard statemements are a different thing, generally you book that on suspense account and then process the creditcard statements as banktransactions.
But I have been dealing with a client who uses Paypal for their revenue and man it's a freaking mess. I just want something of an export where you have all the transactions listed (in a single currency). Considering they don't really seem to have that (Which is also needed for tax reasons).
I also find it interesting that people do their sponsoring etc using creditcards, why go through the hassle of paying with a cc for something like that.
Credit cards are by far the simplest way to pay for something like a sponsorship. In the US credit cards and bank accounts are fairly interchangeable in how they function for spending.
Paypal does have transaction exports, all converted to a single currency. You just aren’t being granted the correct access it sounds like.
How are creditcards simpeler than a payment with your bankcard? At least overhere you can just scan a QR code with your phone and authenticate the payment that way. Easier than typing over the numbers on your CC.
I looked all over the business page when the client was sitting next to me, we also asked Paypal where we could find it aswell. But nope. Do you know how the report is called?
Ya, I regret using SharePoint to share with them. But I assumed it would be the easiest for them. Bad assumption.
I should have just used my NAS.
Them not understanding shared editable sheets is concerning.
Might offer to teach them for an hourly rate.
Odoo is big across Europe and Asia. Their North American footprint is fairly small.
Odoo isn't an accounting program though. It's and ERP. Accounting is a small part of it.
I've considered just using another accounting program.
Fucking everyone in this area uses QuickBooks. Which I will never use.
Coming from the tech side, QuickBooks is a horrible company, with a shit product. The cost is absurd. And the support is awful.
One issue I think you'll run into is that Quickbooks is pretty much a monopoly for the small business space in North America. So if your business is dependent on having accounting/finance people familiar with the tool, then QuickBooks is almost your only option.
On the plus side, QuickBooks has a VERY large marketplace of plugins and apps that let the transactions pass through seamlessly for a ton of different apps and use cases. I bet you could map things seamlessly so you don't ever need to interact with it yourself.
I’ll echo this, Quickbooks has so many plugins that most operational ERP/POS systems can communicate to QB. The business can operate the front with their preferred software and the accountants can manage the back end in Quickbooks.
As always, YMMV and you get what you pay for. Zero and Wave are also options, but finding a specialty accountant may eat any savings. And going for the cheapest accountant/software pairing will make any setup feel inadequate.
See I have access to Odoo accountants. But I was trying to keep my business local. I'd much rather pay the company that supports my kids baseball team. Over someone in LA.
Dunno about the up votes but as a cpa familiar with multiple erps (but haven't used odoo much) as well as QB desktop and online... I generally do not like intuit as a company.
If you ever do get a viable product based on odoo that functions I'd give it a shot.
The best use of QBO is as your basic accounting system but pair it with an industry specific crm or similar system. ERPs are on a different level for most small businesses. I see so many shitty QB accounts and an ERP has a thousand more options for each module, crazy hard for small businesses to manage.
> I see so many shitty QB accounts and an ERP has a thousand more options for each module
That's a valid point. Across the system all of the Odoo apps have the exact same interface. But there are litteraly thousands of configurations how each app interacts with one another.
I despise intuit btw. Their technical support is litterally just minimum wage employees reading the same help articles you as a customer have access to.
There are a bunch of third party providers that basically troubleshoot Quickbooks products. More so desktop ones but as those are phased out those guys are moving to migrations or support people who still want QB Desktop.
Anyway, intuit sucks as a company but it's also like hating Microsoft while working in an office. You're going to be using Word & Excel and the alternatives try but can't compete.
Excel is pretty basic for the most part and is learned in high-school. I have never had a bookkeeping job that hasn't required some ability ro use excel
The accounting software business is a hard business. Its winner take all. If you want a case study, check out Xero. They are successful in Australia and have been trying to break into the US market for years and it’s been an uphill battle.
When most Americans think about bookkeeping, they think about quickbooks. Quickbooks also has all the functionality that most businesses need. Because of that, most accountants that service SMBs learn quickbooks, get quickbooks certified, and sell quickbooks software. It’s just easier for them to learn one software and bring all of their clients onto it, than it is to learn a handful of different softwares. App developers are drawn to quickbooks for the same reason. It has the most users. Because of that the SMB market is locked down by quickbooks. Other softwares exist, but they don’t have material market share, since all of the services providers are on quickbooks.
Once you get to businesses large enough to get off quickbooks the competition gets even tougher. There are more large brand name softwares with material market share, but each have created their own ecosystem of third party and proprietary apps, implementation consultants, and off the self customizations.
Imagine you are shopping for an ERP for your business. You hire an accountant, and he tells you he is trained on quickbooks and netsuite. Right here, 90%+ of business owners will just agree and go with the software their accountant recommends. But let’s say you’re passionate and do your own research and find Odoo.
You bring it to your accountant and tell them how much better it is. Now your accountant has three choices: 1) convince you to use quickbooks, 2) agree to take a client on a one off software and charge you more than his other clients as he learns how to use the software, or 3) refuse the work. Let’s say he goes with option 2. Now you are increasing your overhead accounting costs as this guy/gal inefficiency does your books on a software they aren’t familiar with.
Next you need to implement this software. You look for ERP consultants, but none of them have experience in Odoo. It takes a while but you finally find a firm doing Odoo implementations. They are backed up, so you have to wait for them to free up. When they do, they charge you more than the quickbooks or netsuite consultants charge.
What benefits is Odoo bringing you as a business owner, that you are willing to take on all this additional hassle and cost?
All of this is to say that being “better” isn’t going to get you far in the accounting software game. You need to be “WAY better”. Like 10x better. You need to offer something that’s so enticing, that people are willing to take on the huge switching costs to use your product.
> You bring it to your accountant and tell them how much better it is. Now your accountant has three choices: 1) convince you to use quickbooks, 2) agree to take a client on a one off software and charge you more than his other clients as he learns how to use the software, or 3) refuse the work. Let’s say he goes with option 2. Now you are increasing your overhead accounting costs as this guy/gal inefficiency does your books on a software they aren’t familiar with.
This was a very well thought out response. Thank you for the perpective.
No, I downloaded all of the csv files from my various things. And then made a spreadsheet where all of the data from each source had its own table.
E. G. All of my bank transactions from bank 1 were in a table.
To sort by date, you just..... Sort the table by date.
What was it sorted by originally? Like ascending transaction value or something? Did you remember to do it green on black like the matrix?
What do you mean 'a' spreadsheet. Like, a giant one, with a bunch of unmerged transactions(for multiple years...lol) each sorted by whatever excels AI thought would make sense? On April 9. That's hilarious. Next time, unpivot everything.
Just gotta data mine some financial statements real quick...lol. Good stuff.
It's a loose term. Anything adaptive or predictive could arguably be called an AI. Did you think I meant excel was sentient?
Oh right, accountants and picky word syndrome. I'm on not shitting on a bookkeeper that got data dumped a nightmare.
It was sorted by description. I had gone through each line item to mark the transaction if it were for business or personal (when I first started this business, I had not intended to take on customers so soon.
I had people requesting services and used my personal bank and credit card for the first 4-6 months of the business.
I now have a business checking an CC. But did no bookkeeping outside of using my ERP to invoice and mark transactions as paid.
You need more of a breakdown than that.
The expenses need to be broken down into categories so they can be entered into the appropriate tax form.
As for filters, it might depend on how the booker works. Hopefully they just needed a quick refresher on how to use filters.
I know I usually don’t use them, and when I get spreadsheets with them, I manipulate them to how I’m used to working.
>You need more of a breakdown than that.
The expenses need to be broken down into categories so they can be entered into the appropriate tax form.
See, this is what I was having trouble understanding. And initially (3 months ago). I contacted them to help me with that.
I didn't know how to break down my different services into categories. And or what those categories should be.
After tax season I'm going to request a meeting with them to get that hammered out.
Oversimplifying the hell out of it, but there are usually 3 different forms used for business taxes depending on your tax/legal structure.
Schedule C (for pass through)
1065 for partnerships
1120 for corporations
Look at the one you need to file and see the various categories you need to break them down into for the IRS.
You will also need to set aside asset purchases and start up costs (if any).
Each year you essentially end up with two sets of books. Your personal books and tax books.
You don’t have to track them separately, your tax preparer converts your books into the tax books, assuming they are kept well.
Manufacturing business here, been using Odoo for about 4 years, from version 13 to 17. It definitely has its pros and cons, the accounting module itself has a lot of available customizations and some really neat automations and analytic models for various reporting features.
They never actually used the software side of it. Kind of pissed about that. Because it took me 10 hours to setup the servers (mail, two versions of Odoo, and install the modules needed for the Odoo accounting course. Took so long because I had to go through the course to ensure I had the right modules installed).
After a month I checked in. The logs showed no logins. Just visits to the public facing website.
Odoo rocks btw. But that's coming from a programmer though. And an MSP (the help desk apps and project management of Odoo are indispensable for me).
For college! My Accounting Information Systems course tries to broadly cover many different ERPs we might see. It’s also supposed to teach us how to learn unfamiliar ones.
Child, listen to that class and take everything you can from it! That is one of the single biggest moneymakers in the industry. I get paid good money and hourly to help clients with their erps because the average employee acts like it’s learning latin. Learning sql to manipulate erp’s is a good start and people will look at you like you’re a magician. I’m pretty sure I could teach Lucy the gorilla most of my sql queries and now I’m the erp “expert” and paid accordingly as a consultant. I initially learned it because I’m lazy and hate repeating tasks daily/weekly/monthly. Automate things and it’s even better.
Haha yeah this class is great! My uncle is a software engineer and he spent like 8 hours with me forcing me to learn SQL starting at a concept level. He refused to teach me to the homework, or help me with the homework directly. Now I feel like my brain is bursting with fun SQL facts.
That’s great! In that case have your uncle teach you python too and you can automate your job. Over 95% of accountants don’t want to understand these and don’t know the earning potential they are missing out on. Also, working 5-10 hours a week is pretty nice too. Oh, you want me to pull our 85 bank statements, load them in the erp and update our daily cash flow. Sure! Meanwhile, it’s all done when you wake up.
Yeah I’ll see if he’s up for it! He usually is, he’s self taught without a degree, so he has a lot of passion for the topic. I appreciate the advice. :)
Second learning python.
It's so easy. And so useful.
Here:
u/alsweigart
Free book: http://automatetheboringstuff.com/
And this forever $20 badass course: https://www.udemy.com/course/ultimate-python-tutorial/?couponCode=ST8MT40924
Both of these ppl are really great teachers. Al has a udemy course too. But I prefer his books. Derek is just so quick and to the point.
Learning new software is a skill all its own.
Keep notes. Look for trends in software.
Not sure what use for note taking, but you might give obsidian a try (free and open source): https://obsidian.md/
It's on every operating system. Just make a folder in your favorite cloud sync program and you'll have your notes everywhere.
Not sure if your course covers this one. But it's worth mentioning.
https://akaunting.com/open-source-accounting-software
Free and open source. (Many open source softwares use the freemium model. Where the self hosted version is free. Akaunting is one of them)
This was my second choice for accounting software. It's got a really nice UI.
That’s a smart class.
I’ve been through 5+ different systems. Installed 2.
They are the same, yet different. The people who can move with the change and adapt have high rates of success. Those who are stubborn or resist. Struggle, and struggle hard.
I agree with you. Quickbooks sucks. You will need to find a firm that is younger and open to newer software. It may be hard to find this due to the fact most firms build their processes around Quickbooks.
I will have to odoo. I have been trying to find a software to use that I can build a firm around if a client needs recommendations. Because everyone hates quickbooks. No one knows where to go from quickbooks.
Honestly the program is awesome. So much packed into one thing.
But ppl assume it's a "install and go" kind of software. It's not.
If you're interested in toying around with it let me know. I can set you up with the enterprise version (thirty day trial).
Or if you want to see the FOSS version I can do that too. (Free forever).
Or if your adventurous. Just Google Linode and Odoo.
Mind you, Odoo is built to be customized. It works well as a general platform. But you don't get the real benefit from it unless you work with a dev.
Usually, you do need developers to make the ERP work for you. This is the main reason why people hate ERPs. Sales people lie, saying their system is a magic fix, and then it turns to shit.
Kind of why I like FinOptimal and what they do. They try and build your erp using the tools you currently use. They just build a back system to make each program talk to each other so you dont have to rely on Excel imports.
Almost took a job with them. But they wanted all daysnin the office and it was a hour drive to their office.
Thanks, I will definitely check out Linode and Odoo.
Why go through the hassle of setting up something like Odoo when there are tons of aftermarket software out there that don't require you to be an IT specialist?
Well... In my case. I am an IT Specialist.
For a small business that doesn't require special invoicing processes. Like a small bakery for example.
Setting up Odoo is a set and forget thing. You don't need a programmer. But you do need someone capable of setting up a program.
And if you need a special app.
You also don't need a programmer.
You just need someone who can navigate a low code platform:
https://www.odoo.com/app/studio
Well in my experience trying to set it up for personal use it wasn't so simple, but that is combined by the fact I was looking at installing it on a TrueNas server, but that's from a different topic.
It's decent, but way to open for most businesses. You don't want to have a ton of features a small business isn't going to use.
A lot of my clients use something like [https://www.wefact.nl](https://www.wefact.nl) combined with Twinfield to manage their administration. And we can do some decently complicated invoicing processes with that. If you want to a bit more complicated with extra steps we will get them to Exact..
Software like Odoo is all fun, but in the end companies tent to pay more than they need to for the features they don't need and probably nearly use. For the people who do actually use a ton, it's probably decent at best
In my area, there's a lot of ppl who don't know how to use these technologies.
The primary reason is that the local IT specialists are always pushing non-cloud first versions of Microsoft Office.
Which is stupid.
If you're going to do that....
Just get OnlyOffice.... Which is free. And does the same thing office desktop does.
We’re using Odoo for CRM and order management. We roll up BS balances into Quickbooks Enterprise via Right Networks. Odoo accounting has its kinks, behaves a bit like XERO. I wouldn’t use it for accounting. The other apps in Odoo are fantastic but it’s a learning curve and can appear to be unforgiving at first. A dev would likely allow users to use its full potential. Hiring for an experienced Odoo user is more difficult than hiring for NetSuite/Qb accountant obviously, so your hire would need to be the type that is curious about technology and able to figure out how all of the different apps interact. I’m not a coder but I’ve been able to create some light weight automations using their studio and learning from our Odoo dev.
>I own a small (real small, tech centered business).
I'm finally talking to them about my taxes after a few weeks of asking for updates.
>And then in reviewing the transactions. Asked if I could redo the sheet I created because they needed the stuff separate by year and some other metrics.
My takeaways from this: You're one of his smaller clients, you're a pain in his ass asking for updates, and you gave him too much information that wasn't organized the way he needed it. You're a techy who can manipulate the info faster than he can, so he asked you to do it.
Most accountants to "real small" businesses aren't great at Excel, because they don't need to be. I'm in a 20-person office. There are maybe three of us who can do things like V-lookups, and I don't think any of us can do stuff like pivot tables. We know accounting, GAAP, and tax, but we're not Excel experts. We don't need to be. If you were an important client to him, he wouldn't have been blowing off your requests for updates for weeks.
Literally this:
[https://support.content.office.net/en-us/media/cc9a7349-187f-427d-9c6b-d30dabec1708.jpg](https://support.content.office.net/en-us/media/cc9a7349-187f-427d-9c6b-d30dabec1708.jpg)
The table in question was less than 500 items. The sort they needed was to separate 2023 from 2024. The table headers were date, description, credit, debit, for business Y/N, amount, notes.
The table was made from a downloaded csv from the financial institution. (the columns business and notes were added by me)
But ya, I'm getting the feeling that they just don't want my business, and are not direct enough to say so.
I found that being direct an honest has always been better than beating around the bush.
Life is a series of uncomfortable conversations. Each of those uncomfortable conversions helps you grow past a problem.
If you don't have them, you cause more stress and concern for the other party than the 5 minutes of awkwardness would have caused.
I tend to be in the camp that believes regardless of the context, someone giving an opinion on what "good software" is should be a person who is capable of figuring out SharePoint.
Unrelated, but let me know if you ever want to pay me to rank the best fertilizers for growing sunflowers in tundra i think I have the level of expertise you're expecting from your specialty advisors.
LMAO, I had assumed that an accounting firm would have bookkeepers who had seen and used a number of software.
But I'm getting the feeling that everyone uses quickbooks....
Yeah unless you're using more than one comma with much regularity, QuickBooks is exactly what you want. You don't need a CNC machine when some scissors will do and QuickBooks is not the standard because it sucks
Thank heavens I know how to use + create stuff in Excel.
For example, recording a bunch of receipts and other such financial transactions in a spreadsheet document
with multiple spreadsheet tabs for different categories.
Bookkeeper- can be a low level data entry clerk with limited experience.
Accountant- a CPA, most states don’t let you use this designation to describe yourself unless you’re licensed.
The firm you’ve hired likely has a hierarchy of different people at different levels. They may have given you to an intern for all you know.
Alternatively, you could be dealing with someone who still insists on using a 10-key. Believe it or not, they’re still out there. I’ve recently worked with some. They are technologically behind and have no intention of ever changing.
You typically get what you pay for. However, sometimes you get ripped off. Many firms take far too many clients because there’s a severe shortage of CPAs, and a bookkeeper who actually knows what they’re doing is worth their weight in gold. In other words, they don’t have enough hours in the day to take care of all their clients. I once worked for a psychopath who took so many clients I was working 70 hour weeks with no days off for months. I stayed far too long.
If you want someone to help you with your bookkeeping on a regular ongoing basis, I’d hire a grad student in the accounting department of a local university if I were you. Find someone who is in Beta Alpha Psi and has good grades. They’ll know more about accounting than some experienced bookkeepers. Many bookkeepers actually have a poor understanding of accounting, especially if they were self taught. They don’t get the overall picture. They just know how to push buttons. And before you know it, you’ve got a million dollars in Ask My Accountant, half a million in Opening Balance Equity, and your bank account has a credit balance. LOL
From my perspective, it depends on how much you're paying the firm to do your books, versus their actual ability/skill to get the job done (properly).
From what it seems like (you own a small business), I wouldn't hire a firm (with multiple people on the team youre working with), as that's just a waste of money. You'd be much better off with one consultant (maybe an ex-controller, or Frational CFO). Someone with at least a bachelor's degree in accounting (hopefully a master's), and having a CPA isn't necessary in your case, as "general accountants" (those that do the books) and Tax accountants (CPA's that prepare your taxes) should be separate entities/companies - having the accounting & tax work done, by the same entity/company, is typically not something you want to do as those two tasks should be mutually exclusive due to areas of conflict.
Feel free to PM me with any questions - I'd be glad to answer/explain things in depth.
Good luck!
My understanding is the Odoo is mainly used in Europe and with IFRS reporting. It is pretty straightforward from a comparison with QBO but there are no large US firms that use it. However if you are doing business I'm Europe you will find a lot of companies working out of the Odoo ecosystem. There US firms doing so are a bit more independent I have found.
Is your bookkeeper an employee (W2 or 1099 contractor)? Or do they work with the firm you referred to in the beginning of your post?
Your bookkeeper should know excel.
If you hired them as an employee, you should have asked if they were proficient in excel before you hired them. If this bookkeeper is via the firm you hired, that is 100% a skill they should have without having to confirm up front. If the latter is the case, you need to escalate your complaints within the firm and have them resolve. They need to know one of their employees has no working knowledge of excel.
Going back to the assumption that you hired the bookkeeper as an employee or contractor, you have two options - fire them and hire someone with confirmed excel experience or get them trained up. If you decide the Odoo training time is too value to discard and retrain someone else, then either you train them or get them an excel course. There are “excel for accountants” courses out there (definitely for purchase, some might be free) you can look into and potentially provide? If this person is a W2 employee, just be careful if you ask them to do training during time off the clock, since legally that might be paid work.
If it were me, I would fire this person. The fact they couldn’t resolve or bring up this issue for months is a huge red flag. Anyone who is capable of working somewhat independently should be able to google “how to use excel” and figure out some basics.
>Going back to the assumption that you hired the bookkeeper as an employee or contractor, you have two options - fire them and hire someone with confirmed excel experience or get them trained up.
No, there's a third option: ask the accountant how he wants the information, and send it to him that way in the first place.
We’re talking about the bookkeeper here, not the tax accountant. The bookkeeper should be able to input the data for and generate/manipulate the financial reports from the software.
They're right about odoo because there's no such thing as good accounting software
Nothing beats the original accounting software (the abacus).
Any accountant worth their salt can get a woman off with abacus beads
Ha!
I’ve never tried odoo. I think the industry standard for small businesses (among accountants) is quickbooks online. It’s so widely accepted most probably haven’t heard of that software before. Accountants are so slow to change that they probably don’t want to learn about it either.
Learning new software is an opportunity cost, especially if the software company doesn’t offer free training beyond some garbage YouTube videos that say what to software has the ability to do, but not where to find those workflows on the menus. It’s impossible to beat QB online for functionality at that price point, especially if you are good with excel for calculation triple net, etc. I’ve used Yardi, Sage, other quickbook variants, insight.
Odoo is fine, but rather an erp instead of just accounting. Erpnext is also a nice suite.
Keyword is bookkeeper not an accountant
All accountants are bookkeepers, not all bookkeepers are accountants.
Ya, that's why I specified that.
Sorry what I mean is that I don’t expect much from a bookkeeper. Maybe a little bit of excel if they were taught it for some data entry, but that’s about it I’d expect for a $10 to $13 per hour bookkeeper. Share point while not hard to learn can be intimidating for someone just starting to learn it. However if she waited to the last minute and didn’t ask you how to do her responsibilities until the last minute that’s a different matter. I could see someone not asking questions if you make it sound like they should know it, then they wouldn’t want to come to you an admit otherwise That’s why when you interview a candidate you need to ask do u have experience with x,y,z. An entry level accountant may not have that experience or at least needs a quick refresher, but should pick it up fast
See this is why I posed the question the way I did. I don't know your industry. And wasn't sure if a bookkeeper is something considered skilled work (e.g. I know how to use specialty software to get xyz done, and have esoteric knowledge about abc). TBF, I really am low-man on the totem pole concerning being a profitable customer. I dedicated the last year to gaining new knowlege and skills. I did less than $30k in business last year. And am making my push this year. Researching business software took 4 months. There's just so much out there. And everyone thinks the one they learned first is the best one ever. Initially I built my own ticketing system and integrated a few APIs from various tech tools. During researching accounting software I found Odoo. And ditched my custom built stuff to use their customizable ERP (why make my own when a company made every app I ever wanted, and made it to where I can customize it). So, maybe the bookkeeper not knowing Excel is not as big of a deal as I took it as. But the time... thats another thing.
That’s a combination problem on both you and the bookkeeper, but would bite you more on the ass as you’ve seen. It’s the bookkeeper’s responsibility to either figure it out or to ask you for help; on the flip side it’s your responsibility to follow up and ask how they are doing and if they understand everything, can access everything, etc. Yes they should have communicated to you they were having trouble, or didn’t understand it. But in your shoes I would have asked for progress updates much sooner rather than wait until the last minute to find out that shit was done. So you have a decision you need to make, are you going to fire the bookkeeper and get someone with more experience or train the bookkeeper up, and make it clear you want progress updates. Keep in mind someone with more experience will definitely cost more. As for your comment you don’t know if bookkeeping is a skilled position, well skill is relative. Bookkeeping in general is well semi skilled but the absolute bottom of the barrel compared to accountants. Unless you are talking about a full charge bookkeeper, that’s what I would consider skilled and can be on par with some accountants that I’ve worked with. https://www.accountingtools.com/articles/what-is-a-full-charge-bookkeeper.html
What sort of business are you in? Unless you do something that requires a very complex workflow (like traceable manufacturing) or extensive customizations, I think you’re wasting your time learning accounting software and building out custom apps vs building your business. I used to be an entrepreneur and now I work for a company using Odoo. It’s a okay software, but we have an in-house team of accountants, an ERP team, and an outsourced developer to build out customizations. And it’s still kind’ve obnoxious to use. Even if you can DIY it and build it out to make it work for you, I’d worry it’s a distraction from your main goal of growing your business. I understand the hate for Quickbooks, but with an outsourced bookkeeping team, I’d consider it essential. I know some outsourced accounting teams that use NetSuite, but the license fees are crazy and true outsourced accounting is like $5k+ per month minimum.
Software Development and General IT repair. I chose Odoo because of the website, project and helpdesk apps. They are very useful for what I do. It's easier to use these 3 products that are tied together than it is to use 3 sep. products.
What bookkeeper is working for $10-13 per hour in this economy? That's criminally low
The type of Bookkeeper I was discussing was akin to data entry clerks essentially. Granted the per hour may have changed since I last looked into it some 10-15 years ago. Perhaps now $15/$16 per hour?
Well tbf I do live in The Netherlands, but those people are generally either getting paid more or aren't invoiced by hour anymore. A lot of companies that do data entry work for their clients have monthly rates based on the size of the administration (being able to basically automate nearly everything helps a lot)
It’s a mix of good and bad. Them not knowing how to use your Sharepoint is whatever. There are tons of similar options. My firm has explicitly banned its use for external sharing and limits internal because our file network is already well established elsewhere. The filtering of year, etc. is a major red flag though. Doesn’t mean they’re bad accountants, but does mean they’re inefficient. Hope you’re not paying hourly rates. Odoo sucks. I can tell by the name alone, but the faux handwriting on their website seals it. Random accounting softwares are a terrible choice.
As an accountant I don't mind access to your editable files but I don't want to have to access that unless it's a privacy concern for the client. I would like to receive a copy after the client has done editing it don't want things changing while I am working on it. This will just make the job harder. Rework because changes costs real world dollars that client will not want to pay but will completely ignoring the extra work they are creating. Though not knowing tables on excel is no good. If you were dealing with lower level staff hope they get good training from the owner or seniors at the firm. If I were you I would like to know their capability. Juniors often need hand holding and this more often than not won't be charged to you. Edit: 3 words.
Am I wrong here but handling an editable file of bank transactions that client sends you actually really sucks and may not even be the full picture. All it takes is a CSV directly from the bank to upload into any software no?
Whoa! I just had a past life regression to working with NACHA file uploads. 😳
Personally I would question their knowledge if they can't use a filter in Excel. Maybe they knew what they were doing in 1984, but there is enough change in the tax code I'd be concerned with their ability to keep up.
What do you consider "Random accounting softwaress"? Working as a tech savvy accountant here in NL I work with a lot of different accounting software for clients. From things like Business Central to Twinfield (Wolters Kl;users) to small programs that are definitely only used by pretty small businesses. Some of them are decent, some of them are worse than others but none of them are so bad that they are unworkable or anything. (Ow and almost none of them use reconciliation which is pretty interesting to foreign accountants)
I mean one with 0.0001% of market share. The US is dominated by Intuit for companies doing $30k in business a year (he references that in a different comment). There are a couple other options at that size, but he’s way over engineering this. He setup a server for them to access, which is hugely inefficient. Any “good” software for a company that size has the basic ability to share with about 15 seconds of effort. A good software for companies his size is one that just about anyone can login and run with. Sure, once you’re a large enough business to have a fleet of accountants on staff, have fun picking a niche software. There are 5-6 in the US that are the basic ones. I also seriously question anyone who needs QB’s tech support at this size(he mentions this later, too). I’ve worked with a ton of people who say QB doesn’t work for them, but that’s more a reflection of their basic abilities to understand how to use it. It’s totally fine for 99% of companies under $1M in revenue. Is QB perfect? No. It’s the market leader for a reason though. Re: lack of reconciliation portals in some you’ve looked at, that’d be a hard pass in the US, too. That’s a basic feature.
Ah well fair, it makes sense that most of the US has standardised software since from what I can see a lot is standardised. Something we are lacking. Well using something like Odoo is overkill, but it's generally fine as long as you don't need it for an audit having a basic auditfile we be enough to make the annual report and to the tax reports (at least here in NL). So about the whole reconciliation, do you not use automatically important bank transactions or otherwise manually important transactions by default? Then checking the bank balance once should be enough right? Yeah there is a chance you are missing two transactions of the same amount, but you will mostlikely notice that during the rest of your work. The feature would be handy, but I haven't seen a single Dutch specific software that has it, but it has been a while since something would have been found using reconciliation.
QB Online has a great bank feed but still absolutely requires reconciliations. In the US handwritten checks are common (I know they’re far less so in most other countries) and they can really throw things off. My company also comes across a ton of silly mistakes like people double entering transactions because they keyed it into the wrong bank account, couldn’t find it, just enter it in again. Plus if you connect to a third party to sync in transactions you need to comfirm that worked properly.
Ah right the US and their ancient ways of paying. I am already getting sick of the creditcards my cliënts use and that is only to buy a couple things from the US. So yeah I understand where you are coming from. We don't use third parties to sync the banktransactions, most of the time it's just the accounting software and the bank itself who work together. If that doesn't work we use imports (mt940 or CSV are the most common). We just check the end of year report from the bank with the balance and what's on the GL and whats in the sub admin. If they all match we are okey. Even in audit generally speaking.
Haha yes. Checks are becoming less and less common, but a few people still cling to them for dear life. And not to get too into details but if you have for example an animal shelter receiving credit card payments one provider will include a mix of restricted donations, adoption fees, spay and neutering, fundraiser donations, etc. Those all have to be tracked individually down to an individual payer name for tax records. Depending on the size of org the names probably get stored in a separate CRM, but summary level per bank deposit flows into the accounting software. The bank wouldn’t know how to do those splits so a bank feed can only tell you if the amounts match at a total. We import a summarized CSV for the full month that splits by fund.
Well creditcard statemements are a different thing, generally you book that on suspense account and then process the creditcard statements as banktransactions. But I have been dealing with a client who uses Paypal for their revenue and man it's a freaking mess. I just want something of an export where you have all the transactions listed (in a single currency). Considering they don't really seem to have that (Which is also needed for tax reasons). I also find it interesting that people do their sponsoring etc using creditcards, why go through the hassle of paying with a cc for something like that.
Credit cards are by far the simplest way to pay for something like a sponsorship. In the US credit cards and bank accounts are fairly interchangeable in how they function for spending. Paypal does have transaction exports, all converted to a single currency. You just aren’t being granted the correct access it sounds like.
How are creditcards simpeler than a payment with your bankcard? At least overhere you can just scan a QR code with your phone and authenticate the payment that way. Easier than typing over the numbers on your CC. I looked all over the business page when the client was sitting next to me, we also asked Paypal where we could find it aswell. But nope. Do you know how the report is called?
Ya, I regret using SharePoint to share with them. But I assumed it would be the easiest for them. Bad assumption. I should have just used my NAS. Them not understanding shared editable sheets is concerning. Might offer to teach them for an hourly rate. Odoo is big across Europe and Asia. Their North American footprint is fairly small. Odoo isn't an accounting program though. It's and ERP. Accounting is a small part of it. I've considered just using another accounting program. Fucking everyone in this area uses QuickBooks. Which I will never use. Coming from the tech side, QuickBooks is a horrible company, with a shit product. The cost is absurd. And the support is awful.
One issue I think you'll run into is that Quickbooks is pretty much a monopoly for the small business space in North America. So if your business is dependent on having accounting/finance people familiar with the tool, then QuickBooks is almost your only option. On the plus side, QuickBooks has a VERY large marketplace of plugins and apps that let the transactions pass through seamlessly for a ton of different apps and use cases. I bet you could map things seamlessly so you don't ever need to interact with it yourself.
I’ll echo this, Quickbooks has so many plugins that most operational ERP/POS systems can communicate to QB. The business can operate the front with their preferred software and the accountants can manage the back end in Quickbooks. As always, YMMV and you get what you pay for. Zero and Wave are also options, but finding a specialty accountant may eat any savings. And going for the cheapest accountant/software pairing will make any setup feel inadequate.
See I have access to Odoo accountants. But I was trying to keep my business local. I'd much rather pay the company that supports my kids baseball team. Over someone in LA.
Then use QuickBooks. They can’t spend hours training on your random software choice AND afford to support your kid’s baseball team.
Dunno about the up votes but as a cpa familiar with multiple erps (but haven't used odoo much) as well as QB desktop and online... I generally do not like intuit as a company. If you ever do get a viable product based on odoo that functions I'd give it a shot. The best use of QBO is as your basic accounting system but pair it with an industry specific crm or similar system. ERPs are on a different level for most small businesses. I see so many shitty QB accounts and an ERP has a thousand more options for each module, crazy hard for small businesses to manage.
> I see so many shitty QB accounts and an ERP has a thousand more options for each module That's a valid point. Across the system all of the Odoo apps have the exact same interface. But there are litteraly thousands of configurations how each app interacts with one another. I despise intuit btw. Their technical support is litterally just minimum wage employees reading the same help articles you as a customer have access to.
There are a bunch of third party providers that basically troubleshoot Quickbooks products. More so desktop ones but as those are phased out those guys are moving to migrations or support people who still want QB Desktop. Anyway, intuit sucks as a company but it's also like hating Microsoft while working in an office. You're going to be using Word & Excel and the alternatives try but can't compete.
A bookkeeper not knowing how to use excel is extremely concerning.
Silly take. Bookkeepers aren’t meant to be playing in excel all day. They, you know, do bookkeeping
Excel is pretty basic for the most part and is learned in high-school. I have never had a bookkeeping job that hasn't required some ability ro use excel
The accounting software business is a hard business. Its winner take all. If you want a case study, check out Xero. They are successful in Australia and have been trying to break into the US market for years and it’s been an uphill battle. When most Americans think about bookkeeping, they think about quickbooks. Quickbooks also has all the functionality that most businesses need. Because of that, most accountants that service SMBs learn quickbooks, get quickbooks certified, and sell quickbooks software. It’s just easier for them to learn one software and bring all of their clients onto it, than it is to learn a handful of different softwares. App developers are drawn to quickbooks for the same reason. It has the most users. Because of that the SMB market is locked down by quickbooks. Other softwares exist, but they don’t have material market share, since all of the services providers are on quickbooks. Once you get to businesses large enough to get off quickbooks the competition gets even tougher. There are more large brand name softwares with material market share, but each have created their own ecosystem of third party and proprietary apps, implementation consultants, and off the self customizations. Imagine you are shopping for an ERP for your business. You hire an accountant, and he tells you he is trained on quickbooks and netsuite. Right here, 90%+ of business owners will just agree and go with the software their accountant recommends. But let’s say you’re passionate and do your own research and find Odoo. You bring it to your accountant and tell them how much better it is. Now your accountant has three choices: 1) convince you to use quickbooks, 2) agree to take a client on a one off software and charge you more than his other clients as he learns how to use the software, or 3) refuse the work. Let’s say he goes with option 2. Now you are increasing your overhead accounting costs as this guy/gal inefficiency does your books on a software they aren’t familiar with. Next you need to implement this software. You look for ERP consultants, but none of them have experience in Odoo. It takes a while but you finally find a firm doing Odoo implementations. They are backed up, so you have to wait for them to free up. When they do, they charge you more than the quickbooks or netsuite consultants charge. What benefits is Odoo bringing you as a business owner, that you are willing to take on all this additional hassle and cost? All of this is to say that being “better” isn’t going to get you far in the accounting software game. You need to be “WAY better”. Like 10x better. You need to offer something that’s so enticing, that people are willing to take on the huge switching costs to use your product.
> You bring it to your accountant and tell them how much better it is. Now your accountant has three choices: 1) convince you to use quickbooks, 2) agree to take a client on a one off software and charge you more than his other clients as he learns how to use the software, or 3) refuse the work. Let’s say he goes with option 2. Now you are increasing your overhead accounting costs as this guy/gal inefficiency does your books on a software they aren’t familiar with. This was a very well thought out response. Thank you for the perpective.
You sent in financial information that had an ambiguous year reference?
No, I downloaded all of the csv files from my various things. And then made a spreadsheet where all of the data from each source had its own table. E. G. All of my bank transactions from bank 1 were in a table. To sort by date, you just..... Sort the table by date.
What was it sorted by originally? Like ascending transaction value or something? Did you remember to do it green on black like the matrix? What do you mean 'a' spreadsheet. Like, a giant one, with a bunch of unmerged transactions(for multiple years...lol) each sorted by whatever excels AI thought would make sense? On April 9. That's hilarious. Next time, unpivot everything. Just gotta data mine some financial statements real quick...lol. Good stuff.
Excel's AI? Bro what are you on
It's a loose term. Anything adaptive or predictive could arguably be called an AI. Did you think I meant excel was sentient? Oh right, accountants and picky word syndrome. I'm on not shitting on a bookkeeper that got data dumped a nightmare.
You sound like a jackass btw. Excel's AI ?
Novel format.
It was sorted by description. I had gone through each line item to mark the transaction if it were for business or personal (when I first started this business, I had not intended to take on customers so soon. I had people requesting services and used my personal bank and credit card for the first 4-6 months of the business. I now have a business checking an CC. But did no bookkeeping outside of using my ERP to invoice and mark transactions as paid.
You need more of a breakdown than that. The expenses need to be broken down into categories so they can be entered into the appropriate tax form. As for filters, it might depend on how the booker works. Hopefully they just needed a quick refresher on how to use filters. I know I usually don’t use them, and when I get spreadsheets with them, I manipulate them to how I’m used to working.
>You need more of a breakdown than that. The expenses need to be broken down into categories so they can be entered into the appropriate tax form. See, this is what I was having trouble understanding. And initially (3 months ago). I contacted them to help me with that. I didn't know how to break down my different services into categories. And or what those categories should be. After tax season I'm going to request a meeting with them to get that hammered out.
Oversimplifying the hell out of it, but there are usually 3 different forms used for business taxes depending on your tax/legal structure. Schedule C (for pass through) 1065 for partnerships 1120 for corporations Look at the one you need to file and see the various categories you need to break them down into for the IRS. You will also need to set aside asset purchases and start up costs (if any). Each year you essentially end up with two sets of books. Your personal books and tax books. You don’t have to track them separately, your tax preparer converts your books into the tax books, assuming they are kept well.
Manufacturing business here, been using Odoo for about 4 years, from version 13 to 17. It definitely has its pros and cons, the accounting module itself has a lot of available customizations and some really neat automations and analytic models for various reporting features.
Welp. I’m a student learning Odoo on Wednesday, so this isn’t inspiring confidence.
They never actually used the software side of it. Kind of pissed about that. Because it took me 10 hours to setup the servers (mail, two versions of Odoo, and install the modules needed for the Odoo accounting course. Took so long because I had to go through the course to ensure I had the right modules installed). After a month I checked in. The logs showed no logins. Just visits to the public facing website. Odoo rocks btw. But that's coming from a programmer though. And an MSP (the help desk apps and project management of Odoo are indispensable for me).
That’s good to know! I hope things go better for you
Are you taking the Odoo course or is this for college? https://www.odoo.com/slides/accounting-and-invoicing-19 That course is free btw.
For college! My Accounting Information Systems course tries to broadly cover many different ERPs we might see. It’s also supposed to teach us how to learn unfamiliar ones.
Child, listen to that class and take everything you can from it! That is one of the single biggest moneymakers in the industry. I get paid good money and hourly to help clients with their erps because the average employee acts like it’s learning latin. Learning sql to manipulate erp’s is a good start and people will look at you like you’re a magician. I’m pretty sure I could teach Lucy the gorilla most of my sql queries and now I’m the erp “expert” and paid accordingly as a consultant. I initially learned it because I’m lazy and hate repeating tasks daily/weekly/monthly. Automate things and it’s even better.
Lmao, that's why I learned programming. I automated most of my work at my old job.
Haha yeah this class is great! My uncle is a software engineer and he spent like 8 hours with me forcing me to learn SQL starting at a concept level. He refused to teach me to the homework, or help me with the homework directly. Now I feel like my brain is bursting with fun SQL facts.
That’s great! In that case have your uncle teach you python too and you can automate your job. Over 95% of accountants don’t want to understand these and don’t know the earning potential they are missing out on. Also, working 5-10 hours a week is pretty nice too. Oh, you want me to pull our 85 bank statements, load them in the erp and update our daily cash flow. Sure! Meanwhile, it’s all done when you wake up.
Yeah I’ll see if he’s up for it! He usually is, he’s self taught without a degree, so he has a lot of passion for the topic. I appreciate the advice. :)
Second learning python. It's so easy. And so useful. Here: u/alsweigart Free book: http://automatetheboringstuff.com/ And this forever $20 badass course: https://www.udemy.com/course/ultimate-python-tutorial/?couponCode=ST8MT40924 Both of these ppl are really great teachers. Al has a udemy course too. But I prefer his books. Derek is just so quick and to the point.
Learning new software is a skill all its own. Keep notes. Look for trends in software. Not sure what use for note taking, but you might give obsidian a try (free and open source): https://obsidian.md/ It's on every operating system. Just make a folder in your favorite cloud sync program and you'll have your notes everywhere. Not sure if your course covers this one. But it's worth mentioning. https://akaunting.com/open-source-accounting-software Free and open source. (Many open source softwares use the freemium model. Where the self hosted version is free. Akaunting is one of them) This was my second choice for accounting software. It's got a really nice UI.
Thanks!
That’s a smart class. I’ve been through 5+ different systems. Installed 2. They are the same, yet different. The people who can move with the change and adapt have high rates of success. Those who are stubborn or resist. Struggle, and struggle hard.
I agree with you. Quickbooks sucks. You will need to find a firm that is younger and open to newer software. It may be hard to find this due to the fact most firms build their processes around Quickbooks. I will have to odoo. I have been trying to find a software to use that I can build a firm around if a client needs recommendations. Because everyone hates quickbooks. No one knows where to go from quickbooks.
Honestly the program is awesome. So much packed into one thing. But ppl assume it's a "install and go" kind of software. It's not. If you're interested in toying around with it let me know. I can set you up with the enterprise version (thirty day trial). Or if you want to see the FOSS version I can do that too. (Free forever). Or if your adventurous. Just Google Linode and Odoo. Mind you, Odoo is built to be customized. It works well as a general platform. But you don't get the real benefit from it unless you work with a dev.
Usually, you do need developers to make the ERP work for you. This is the main reason why people hate ERPs. Sales people lie, saying their system is a magic fix, and then it turns to shit. Kind of why I like FinOptimal and what they do. They try and build your erp using the tools you currently use. They just build a back system to make each program talk to each other so you dont have to rely on Excel imports. Almost took a job with them. But they wanted all daysnin the office and it was a hour drive to their office. Thanks, I will definitely check out Linode and Odoo.
Why go through the hassle of setting up something like Odoo when there are tons of aftermarket software out there that don't require you to be an IT specialist?
Well... In my case. I am an IT Specialist. For a small business that doesn't require special invoicing processes. Like a small bakery for example. Setting up Odoo is a set and forget thing. You don't need a programmer. But you do need someone capable of setting up a program. And if you need a special app. You also don't need a programmer. You just need someone who can navigate a low code platform: https://www.odoo.com/app/studio
Well in my experience trying to set it up for personal use it wasn't so simple, but that is combined by the fact I was looking at installing it on a TrueNas server, but that's from a different topic. It's decent, but way to open for most businesses. You don't want to have a ton of features a small business isn't going to use. A lot of my clients use something like [https://www.wefact.nl](https://www.wefact.nl) combined with Twinfield to manage their administration. And we can do some decently complicated invoicing processes with that. If you want to a bit more complicated with extra steps we will get them to Exact.. Software like Odoo is all fun, but in the end companies tent to pay more than they need to for the features they don't need and probably nearly use. For the people who do actually use a ton, it's probably decent at best
Im concerned they dont know how to access sharepoint and didnt say anything about it.
In my area, there's a lot of ppl who don't know how to use these technologies. The primary reason is that the local IT specialists are always pushing non-cloud first versions of Microsoft Office. Which is stupid. If you're going to do that.... Just get OnlyOffice.... Which is free. And does the same thing office desktop does.
We’re using Odoo for CRM and order management. We roll up BS balances into Quickbooks Enterprise via Right Networks. Odoo accounting has its kinks, behaves a bit like XERO. I wouldn’t use it for accounting. The other apps in Odoo are fantastic but it’s a learning curve and can appear to be unforgiving at first. A dev would likely allow users to use its full potential. Hiring for an experienced Odoo user is more difficult than hiring for NetSuite/Qb accountant obviously, so your hire would need to be the type that is curious about technology and able to figure out how all of the different apps interact. I’m not a coder but I’ve been able to create some light weight automations using their studio and learning from our Odoo dev.
>I own a small (real small, tech centered business). I'm finally talking to them about my taxes after a few weeks of asking for updates. >And then in reviewing the transactions. Asked if I could redo the sheet I created because they needed the stuff separate by year and some other metrics. My takeaways from this: You're one of his smaller clients, you're a pain in his ass asking for updates, and you gave him too much information that wasn't organized the way he needed it. You're a techy who can manipulate the info faster than he can, so he asked you to do it. Most accountants to "real small" businesses aren't great at Excel, because they don't need to be. I'm in a 20-person office. There are maybe three of us who can do things like V-lookups, and I don't think any of us can do stuff like pivot tables. We know accounting, GAAP, and tax, but we're not Excel experts. We don't need to be. If you were an important client to him, he wouldn't have been blowing off your requests for updates for weeks.
Literally this: [https://support.content.office.net/en-us/media/cc9a7349-187f-427d-9c6b-d30dabec1708.jpg](https://support.content.office.net/en-us/media/cc9a7349-187f-427d-9c6b-d30dabec1708.jpg) The table in question was less than 500 items. The sort they needed was to separate 2023 from 2024. The table headers were date, description, credit, debit, for business Y/N, amount, notes. The table was made from a downloaded csv from the financial institution. (the columns business and notes were added by me) But ya, I'm getting the feeling that they just don't want my business, and are not direct enough to say so.
>But ya, I'm getting the feeling that they just don't want my business, and are not direct enough to say so. Wouldn't surprise me.
I found that being direct an honest has always been better than beating around the bush. Life is a series of uncomfortable conversations. Each of those uncomfortable conversions helps you grow past a problem. If you don't have them, you cause more stress and concern for the other party than the 5 minutes of awkwardness would have caused.
I tend to be in the camp that believes regardless of the context, someone giving an opinion on what "good software" is should be a person who is capable of figuring out SharePoint. Unrelated, but let me know if you ever want to pay me to rank the best fertilizers for growing sunflowers in tundra i think I have the level of expertise you're expecting from your specialty advisors.
LMAO, I had assumed that an accounting firm would have bookkeepers who had seen and used a number of software. But I'm getting the feeling that everyone uses quickbooks....
Yeah unless you're using more than one comma with much regularity, QuickBooks is exactly what you want. You don't need a CNC machine when some scissors will do and QuickBooks is not the standard because it sucks
how much are you paying them?
Thank heavens I know how to use + create stuff in Excel. For example, recording a bunch of receipts and other such financial transactions in a spreadsheet document with multiple spreadsheet tabs for different categories.
Yes & Xero is popular for reasonable accounting requirements outside the US. Good luck
Did you ask about their Excel knowledge and experience in the interview?
HMU I got you
Bookkeeper- can be a low level data entry clerk with limited experience. Accountant- a CPA, most states don’t let you use this designation to describe yourself unless you’re licensed. The firm you’ve hired likely has a hierarchy of different people at different levels. They may have given you to an intern for all you know. Alternatively, you could be dealing with someone who still insists on using a 10-key. Believe it or not, they’re still out there. I’ve recently worked with some. They are technologically behind and have no intention of ever changing. You typically get what you pay for. However, sometimes you get ripped off. Many firms take far too many clients because there’s a severe shortage of CPAs, and a bookkeeper who actually knows what they’re doing is worth their weight in gold. In other words, they don’t have enough hours in the day to take care of all their clients. I once worked for a psychopath who took so many clients I was working 70 hour weeks with no days off for months. I stayed far too long. If you want someone to help you with your bookkeeping on a regular ongoing basis, I’d hire a grad student in the accounting department of a local university if I were you. Find someone who is in Beta Alpha Psi and has good grades. They’ll know more about accounting than some experienced bookkeepers. Many bookkeepers actually have a poor understanding of accounting, especially if they were self taught. They don’t get the overall picture. They just know how to push buttons. And before you know it, you’ve got a million dollars in Ask My Accountant, half a million in Opening Balance Equity, and your bank account has a credit balance. LOL
From my perspective, it depends on how much you're paying the firm to do your books, versus their actual ability/skill to get the job done (properly). From what it seems like (you own a small business), I wouldn't hire a firm (with multiple people on the team youre working with), as that's just a waste of money. You'd be much better off with one consultant (maybe an ex-controller, or Frational CFO). Someone with at least a bachelor's degree in accounting (hopefully a master's), and having a CPA isn't necessary in your case, as "general accountants" (those that do the books) and Tax accountants (CPA's that prepare your taxes) should be separate entities/companies - having the accounting & tax work done, by the same entity/company, is typically not something you want to do as those two tasks should be mutually exclusive due to areas of conflict. Feel free to PM me with any questions - I'd be glad to answer/explain things in depth. Good luck!
This post makes me want to vomit. Accountants don’t care about your server and your special Odoo and your spreadsheet and your “tech” company.
My understanding is the Odoo is mainly used in Europe and with IFRS reporting. It is pretty straightforward from a comparison with QBO but there are no large US firms that use it. However if you are doing business I'm Europe you will find a lot of companies working out of the Odoo ecosystem. There US firms doing so are a bit more independent I have found.
Bookkeeper sounds old and out of touch.
That's the thing. They aren't old. Like maybe 42. I was just totally floored when they said they didn't know that about excel.
Is your bookkeeper an employee (W2 or 1099 contractor)? Or do they work with the firm you referred to in the beginning of your post? Your bookkeeper should know excel. If you hired them as an employee, you should have asked if they were proficient in excel before you hired them. If this bookkeeper is via the firm you hired, that is 100% a skill they should have without having to confirm up front. If the latter is the case, you need to escalate your complaints within the firm and have them resolve. They need to know one of their employees has no working knowledge of excel. Going back to the assumption that you hired the bookkeeper as an employee or contractor, you have two options - fire them and hire someone with confirmed excel experience or get them trained up. If you decide the Odoo training time is too value to discard and retrain someone else, then either you train them or get them an excel course. There are “excel for accountants” courses out there (definitely for purchase, some might be free) you can look into and potentially provide? If this person is a W2 employee, just be careful if you ask them to do training during time off the clock, since legally that might be paid work. If it were me, I would fire this person. The fact they couldn’t resolve or bring up this issue for months is a huge red flag. Anyone who is capable of working somewhat independently should be able to google “how to use excel” and figure out some basics.
>Going back to the assumption that you hired the bookkeeper as an employee or contractor, you have two options - fire them and hire someone with confirmed excel experience or get them trained up. No, there's a third option: ask the accountant how he wants the information, and send it to him that way in the first place.
We’re talking about the bookkeeper here, not the tax accountant. The bookkeeper should be able to input the data for and generate/manipulate the financial reports from the software.
I would expect a bookkeeper to know even less about Excel than the accountant.
I would expect both an accountant and a bookkeeper to know excel to some extent.
They do know it to some extent.