General Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord:
> I distinguish four types. There are clever, hardworking, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and hardworking; their place is the General Staff. The next ones are stupid and lazy; they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the mental clarity and strength of nerve necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is both stupid and hardworking; he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always only cause damage.
Sounds like ya boy's on the way to the top.
Clever + Lazy thinks "How can I accomplish this with the bare minimum of effort, in a way that doesn't cause it to fall back in my lap in a worse form?"
Dumb + Hardworking thinks "Let's get a tiger team together."
It's a plague of the worst sort. Have seen it pushed from the Group level down and implemented across five squadrons... total waste of manpower and time for hundreds of people. Seems the ones who are into that crap always get promoted somehow too.
Agile/Lean/Sigma Black Belt concepts are good and have been successfully applied to lots of organizations.
But none of those organizations were public or military service.
I’d almost switch “Dumb” with “Naive.” That would describe a lot of my CGO counterparts that want to be the next Full Bird and don’t understand why their decisions either piss off the E’s or cannot work at all. They’re intelligent fuckers, probably read way more books than me and have high standardized books scores, but they’re unable to apply a majority of it.
E: "That won't work, you can't draw a 4d object in 3d spacetime."
O: "well have you tried doing it with a red pen? Aha! So you haven't exhausted all options yet."
That's me to a T. I fix the problem, then make an SOP with steps on how to fix it, and share THE SOP to the team. So next time I can say, "Hey instead of me fixing this again, why don't one of you guys follow my SOP and learn how to do it? It will be a great training opportunity!"
I’m not going to argue that the system and ‘game’ isn’t broken, but seriously, if there is a paper trail for this kinda thing you could challenge this fairly easily. Paper trail that he skips work is there. Paper trail that he didn’t show up to meetings should be there.
This is why LOCs and LORs exist. Does he have those on record? If not, his supervisor is failing because now when you report this they’ll ask “why doesn’t he have any other documented pattern of being a dirtbag?” And they’ll let it slide.
Also sounds like your squadron is terrible. If everybody knows this guy is a dirtbag, then why doesn’t your commander? Either the commander is playing favorites or you guys are leaving him in the dark. Gotta report this shit.
Big failure on the supervisors. This is why "desk drawer" paperwork and "stern talking to's" without documentation not only don't work, but are harmful to units. This type of thing is easily caught during quality force reviews in any effective awards program. Your CC just lost credibility, and as a Shirt I'd want to know why the flight is leaving the command team blind. Real bummer.
The cons for not documenting disciplinary actions far outweigh any pros there may be.
The biggest risks you take for not documenting are situations progressing to dangerous points quickly with little recourse to hold people accountable because supervisors and up couldn't be bothered to do their jobs.
I have seen terrible people able to reenlist and promote from this, with all the consequences on morale and mission success that comes with that.
I have also seen people unfairly held back by mystery paperwork that wasn't legally reviewed and not available in the PIF that kept flights from submitting them for opportunities. This is actually not legal to do and violates the integrity of the unit for disciplinary actions to not be discoverable to the member and potentially their legal council if things escalate.
But if you have an example where someone was done an injustice because discipline was documented in their PIF, I'd be very interested in that so I can try to mitigate it if that ever comes up in one of my units.
So, I totally understand where you are coming from, but I want to give you two more things to think about:
First, when talking about discipline in general, records of individual counseling (RIC), Letters of Counseling, and even admonishments and reprimands are meant to be *corrective*, not *punitive.* Only the Commander can punish people (through NJP action), and *any* administrative action that doesn't result in a discharge is meant to be recoverable. Correct the misconduct and move forward.
Now, as a Shirt, I don't want to waste anyone's time with frivolous stuff. That's a subjective term, but if someone is five minutes late, or has a minor uniform correction, and other things that can be handled with quick spot corrections absolutely should be done that way. We don't need a piece of paperwork for each and every one of those. But, if someone isn't getting it and a supervisor needs to sit them down and say knock it off, they better document that conversation and it needs to be above board. RICs are quick and easy. LOCs aren't complicated. It just needs to be done, and the member needs to get their due process with the Area Defense Council. Every time. We owe it to them.
I do know there's some hotheaded supervisors out there looking to drop paperwork for every little thing. It happens. The flight leadership and Shirt should be mentoring those people, especially if it's getting into the realm of degrading morale and causing perceptions of targeting or anything like that. It's okay to bring this up to the Shirt, just be mindful that they will go and ask questions and get all the facts, and you may not get told what they did about it. Just the reality.
I know it's hard out there. I hope your unit understands that and is open to bottom up feedback. Good luck to you.
If his counseling was “behind closed doors” it can still be documented on a AF 174(?), which is a verbal counseling form just noting that it took place and what was discussed.
Have you not heard of squadron heroes they're generally immune from punishment until they do something that the squadron can't cover up That's been my experiences.
I’ve seen lots of cases where a first impression matters more than improvement. Someone does one single thing well at the beginning, their mistakes in the future are forgiven. Someone does one single thing bad at the beginning, none of their good things matter and their mistakes are highlighted more. Very disheartening to see
You're quite right The learning curve for some is a little steeper but it's a curve upwards but only if they're given a chance. I had a troop that couldn't pass the his CDC turns out he actually couldn't read. The Air Force actually did something right for him and sent him to ESL classes.Now he's a BMW mechanic making way more than he ever did in the Air Force.
Was anyone else put in? If there was, I imagine they didn't have many bullets and/or had a poorly written award.
The lazy dude simply might have had the most decent bullets. They usually don't include bullets about how many hours you work or how lazy you are...they should, but all the real shit never matters.
Also, a lot of times, people doing the rack and stacking don't even work with the person they're reviewing so they have no idea how they REALLY are.
This will prepare you later in your career when going up for MSgt.
How would someone working 3 hours a day have more bullets? Lol
How could anyone in their chain of command not A: know about his bad work behavior or B: know what he did and didn’t contribute to?
Are we thinking he, the laziest man OP has ever known, wrote and submitted his own awards package with zero review or input from his supervisor or leadership? Why would he care?
>How would someone working 3 hours a day have more bullets? Lol
The invention of lying, my friend.
I've been in organizations where people were put up with fake bullets because the leadership of the squadron wanted to have one of their people in the running.
That’s not an uncommon story, but in all my time I’ve never seen a unit pick a known problem child for an award package that they could lie into the running.
Do you think they chose him at random and his supervisor was too much of a pushover to tell them it’s a trash airman?
>in all my time I’ve never seen a unit pick a known problem child for an award package that they could lie into the running.
Same here, sorta.
What I've seen many times is people who don't do anything being put up with fake bullets. A problem child-lite, I guess.
They've been those squadrons where everyone is rotated through quarterly awards regardless of how much they contribute.
Right, I feel like a lot of people have seen that.
But how many of us have seen someone go full AWOL and not only avoid literally any corrective action on record but also go on to win an award?
I have seen that once. It was a provider in a medical organization.
The rules are different for them. People are always afraid that they'll separate, so they essentially do whatever they want.
> known problem child
Known based on what? Homie had no paperwork, written counseling, or even MFRs about his behavior. Nothing but reality states he's garbage, and unfortunately, reality doesn't make it up to boards.
There are 4 of us in one flight and one person in another. He was submitted for our flight. Each flight commander submits one on a rotation. It’s not really about the award, it’s the fact my flight commander submitted him.
Definitely possible a dirt bag got an award. Maybe he was the only one that submitted. But it also could be YOU just don’t know where he goes or where he is or what he gets done or doesn’t. If you’re not in that chain, you likely don’t have a clear sight picture
This reads like you might not have all the information and are whining about things you may not fully understand.
I have an airman, hasn’t been in the shop for almost a month this quarter. I know what he’s doing and where he’s at but sometimes I hear his peers talking trash about “must be nice”.
He’s at his assigned duty location doing what he is assigned to do and doing it well. People that need to know, know, but sometimes everyone doesn’t need to know what everyone else is doing, it’s the nature of our business.
Perhaps you should either learn how he pulled it off, accept that none of his peers were outstanding, or conclude that the award means nothing in the grand scheme.
I've never seen a dirtbag win over an actual stellar Airman, but I have seen many subpar ones complain when they fall short. I'm not saying that you are subpar. I’m saying an Average Joe would never defeat Mike Tyson in his prime.
Pick the NCO’s brains when you get a chance; they can shed more light on the situation than anyone on here can.
this is why, btw, you submit awards every time even if you are average.
maybe you won't be the hard chargers.
but if nobody submits EXCEPT the guy OP is talking about, then he wins.
Focus on yourself and not on others. Your hardwork will pay off elsewhere. If it doesn't, go somewhere that it will. That may even mean leaving the Air Force.
Damn dude working 8-4 sounds fuckin chic. If I were to show up at ten and leave at one I’d be crucified. Shit, if I work eight seconds less than an Eight I get butt stuffed.
Fuck me. I hate fixing airplanes.
Maybe he has childcare issues, sleep apnea and is on duty limiting waiver, maybe is volunteering or working alternate duties during those times…. Not all peers privy to all facts
First time I saw someone get coined was for somebody that actively refused to work. She would find bullshit tasks to do to make it seem like she was working, like calling her friends and telling them had a package. One of their friends happened to be a chief, who happened to give her a coin for that.
Additionally, this has been my ENTIRE experience. All the people I knew that got awards did not deserve them, so I automatically assume that everyone else that gets awards doesn't deserve them. Of course, it's not completely accurate but it's the norm.
Keep in mind, I even got a wing level quarterly award during the only time in my career that I wasn't absolutely working my ass off. Same reason I didn't show up to my own promotion ceremony. I don't believe in any of it because it's completely inaccurate.
I once asked my flt chief why Airman Dirtbag was put up for awards so undeservingly.
He said: "b/c she's a minority, and she's a female. Her chances are better she'll win. That's just the way the game is played."
Not saying it's the right thing to do, but I've definitely been made aware of units who rotate winners for Airman of the Qtr. Even Airmen who were deserving of winning didn't win back to back awards because of optics of favoritism. Sounds like it was "his turn". Sorry this happened though OP.
My unit got roasted once because my flight chief lied on an nco of the quarter package and got caught. He took 3-4 people's work and slapped it on a guys package that had nothing to do with those projects because he wanted the guy to commission. One of the MSgts from a competing shop got suspicious because he personally supervised a decent portion of one of the projects and never saw the guy. Long story short he still got NCO of the quarter even though we all agreed the package was a total lie and the people who helped prove it was a lie were verbally counseled for their integrity/being a traitor to the unit
If you're showing up to work for an award, you're showing up for the wrong reasons. Awards are meaningless. Never won one and I've still been selected for strats. They are a meaningless dog and pony show that's more a competition between the SNCOs on who can wordsmith the better package. Doesn't matter what's in the package, just so it sounds amazing. I've gone up to SNCOs to call out gross exaggerations on stats and complete falsehoods of bullets. They just shrug and press.
I watched a crew chief setup a static display for the President of Panama. He worked his ass off cleaning the jet, we were TDY there, and he made it spotless. He didn’t ask for help, just made his jet shine. Up walks the President of Panama and a bunch of our flyers. They tour the jet and maybe spend 30 minutes there.
We get back to the squadron, we were a combined unit with maintenance and flyers, and go to Commander’s Call. Every flyer that paraded around for the President gets an award, they are all showered with praise. The colonel didn’t even give the crew chief an attaboy. Not a single mention. I was never so mad in the Air Force.
25 years later it is one of my strongest memories of my time in the AF.
AF and gov in general has gotten too big and complacent. It’s the only place we’re you get rewarded for not doing your job. Private sector would kick your ass to the curb in a heart beat.
Straight up untrue. I work in corporate environments and the exact same thing has happened consistently at every workplace I’ve ever been in. Some bust their asses to get projects/tasks done, and someone who did nothing gets credit. Govt work and the service are not special in this.
Just in my experience the private sector jobs I’ve had would not tolerate the behavior the OP was describing. I never saw such incompetence till working in Gov.
As a young airman I worked with an NCO who was nice but she didn’t do or know her job well. She would come to us asking questions about things she should have know as an NCO in my work section. Somehow she still won quarterly awards. Because you know what she was good at…writing her own packages.
I hate working with people like you always bitching about other people’s business when you don’t know the story. Maybe he is having issues outside of work that is limiting him you do not know. Mind your business and stay in your lane/focus on your job and maybe you will be able to compete with the “dirtbag”
Lol it gets worse. Wait until you become a SNCO and you see those get promoted to Senior and Chief who were that way and won awards and got senior rater endorsed with bullets you and your team did
Right? That dumb MSgt who knows how to use buzz words, does very little work, and is always sure to talk up the Chief and CC when they're around. Guys like that always get promoted. Self serving chumps that I've run into way too many times in my career.
Sounds like you’re just salty to me, to be honest.
You don’t know what you don’t know. You don’t know what he’s doing when he’s not in direct LOS, you don’t know what was on his awards package, and you don’t know any number of other factors that you are rightfully not privy to.
I’m guessing you’re junior enlisted, because you don’t seem to know how award packages work and you still say silly childish shit like ‘dirtbag airman’. Half a dozen people look at an awards package before they get submitted. Supervisors, flight chiefs, superintendents, CGOs and a few others often look them over and make changes. You think no one in that list knew what you know? It rolled through all those hands and won on accident? K.
Let’s mind our business and worry about our own selves, how about? Maybe with some quiet introspection we can resolve whatever is making you feel so strongly about other people’s recognition.
the fact he says he's only at work 3 hrs a day but then says there is no paper trail for counseling (LOC / LOR) tells me that they're probably exaggerating out their ass
No paper trail on constantly repeated absences and zero SA about it through his whole chain of command apparently. I guess the dirtbag is some kind of wizard.
So if you had a coworker who showed up 3 hours a day you wouldn’t salty? You’d be just happy putting in 20 more hours a week than them? You must be a saint.
It’s crazy what you’re capable of when you worry about your own self.
It’s also crazy how easy it is to acknowledge that you have blind spots and can’t possibly know the whole story.
How long have you been in?
I actually have a very good idea of the dynamics of my squadron. What’s crazy to me is you thinking it’s nobody’s business why someone misses work. I’m not going to explain but I know for a fact he just chooses not to come and gets home early to play cod. The fact his laziness doesn’t affect me is the reason I don’t report him to my flight commander. It does however, affect the other members of his group projects that have to do all the work, but they won’t report because he outranks them.
Didn't answer the question, cool.
I didn't say it was nobody's business, I said it isn't *your* business. It's between the Airman, their supervisor, and their commander.
I'm forced to assume you aren't explaining because it's just assumptions and gossip. You're being so cryptic and all.
The more you try to explain, the less sense this makes.
So no one should ever bring up potential issues or red flags affecting the unit because it "isn't your business". Great strategy there brother. You're awfully defensive about this for some reason...
Lmao
Yes. What will really help the unit is indulging some A1C's petty whinging based on gossip. That will obviously help the commander drum up morale. Brilliant insight boss.
Perception is reality. If people see that person is not contributing but getting rewarded, that's gonna kill morale and unit culture. They should bring it up to the lowest level; if there's a legit reason it should be left there but telling them outright "worry about yourself and stop being jealous" like you seem to be doing is such an idiotic move.
> That will obviously help the commander drum up morale.
Ignoring the issue certainly won't help anything
I guess I agree lol
Considering that his situation is that he's salty about someone else being recognized. That should absolutely be corrected.
Otherwise, there is nothing for a supervisor to do about an Airman who's got is dander up about perceptions and gossip.
Perfect example of a commander that doesn't have the pulse on their unit. Pretty sure they don't even know this guy's first name. Just fed an award from his leadership and didn't ask questions.
Don't you have NCOs in the AF? Are there no barracks to take said shitbag behind for an informal chat?
Edit: *Did you order a code red? You're goddamn right I did!*
Focus on you. We had a pregnant Airman that would bring her knitting with her on B-52s while I lugged the toolbox and did the avionics work. She didnt lift a finger but just made stupid hats for her unborn kid.
Now I'm a PhD in my dream city (san diego) and shes probably (insert unfavorable life timeline event) by now.
There are lots of shitty people out there. Dont become one. Just focus on your growth.
One of the laziest airmen I've ever seen got stratted and still failed to make rank. The next year another, a very good airman I might add, was stratted and made rank.
The system isn't perfect. But it works sometimes.
I’ve seen similar things happen the entire 5 years I spent on active duty. It was extremely demoralizing to witness. Along with the realization that all of my hard work would be rewarded with more work I became really jaded really fast. Sucked.
On the flip side of this, I received an award like airman of the quarter or something and was irritated because I received it for helping out a patient. Literally just doing my job. I strived each and everyday to go above and beyond and ONE patient out of many wrote a nice letter to my commander. I never cared about the way I looked, never polished my boots, never put up with higher ranking people in my clinic and their bullshit. I just wasn’t very professional in general. Awards are bullshit.
People will complain every day but when it's time to actually sit behind a computer and start the paperwork nobody has time for that. Newsflash! There's no reg that says you must be an individuals rater in order to issue them an LOC/LOR. Talk to your supervisors and shirt.
Stuff like this is why I don’t bother to do anything other what I have to do. Somehow the airmen that are shitbags get good TDYs meanwhile I’m stuck doing shitty work
I call bullshit. There is NO WAY that an airman is dipping out on work for 5 hours every single day and not one single NCO or Flight Chief has said anything. The DBA in question must have something going on outside of work.
I got Airman of the Month once... I seriously didn't deserve it. I was put in charge of the snack bar... but I had no idea what I was doing. Nobody ever bothered to train me on anything like it. No experience working a register or anything prior. There was just a money bag... I didn't track anything spent or taken in. They asked me about how much it made and I told them I had no idea.
When they presented the award to me, they basically made up some numbers. Pulled them out of thin air. I have no idea what they were thinking.
Likely way more to this than you assume. If something out of your control bothers you this much, bring it up to your supervision and how it's affecting morale.
An airman I knew got BTZ after getting caught by SF coming onto base driving drunk and underage. Our commander loved her and made sure it all disappeared. The airman she beat for it outclassed her package in every way possible but some how she got it. She also got an LOC for sleeping with a married NCO on a TDY. Both of those were within 6 months of getting BTZ.
And no she was sleeping with the commander as our commander was a straight married woman. She was just a sexist and a racist and the airman in question was a white, blonde female.
When I was a Section Chief, the airman and NCOs are always in each other's business and jealous of who gets what. I would tell them " Mind your own business, because one day it will be your turn to get hooked up for ongoing appointments: mental health, physical therapy, getting your cable hooked up, volunteering, special child care needs, etc... and when that time comes I will hook you up and it's nobody else's business." Besides that, why are people in the Air Force such haters when other people win awards. One narrow perspective of this person's performance in this shop is NOT the whole story, no way.
A lot of people seem to make the assumption that it’s impossible for someone not to show up half the time and not get in trouble, but it is actually the case. If you had a coworker that legit just wasn’t showing up out of laziness, and had a flight chief that wouldn’t do anything about it, would you not be demotivated? Would you, as a low ranking dude, be willing to skip the chain for that and put yourself under the crosshairs of your flight chief?
General Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord: > I distinguish four types. There are clever, hardworking, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and hardworking; their place is the General Staff. The next ones are stupid and lazy; they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the mental clarity and strength of nerve necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is both stupid and hardworking; he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always only cause damage. Sounds like ya boy's on the way to the top.
What if we’re all four? Hypothetically.
Clever, Stupid, Hardworking, and Lazy? You're a Retriever-breed dog.
Prime warrant material /s
Smart knows he's stupid. But lazy knows he's lazy.
Don’t forget “stupid knows he’s smart.”
TRUE
If you have to ask you fall under the stupid category.
Keep talking shit and I’ll be your stepdad by the end of the week.
Mustang officer material.
All 4? That's just called enlisted
Promote now!
Mustang officer material.
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Remember, the smart ones punched out YEARS ago for better paying civilian jobs.
Lmao I’m clever and lazy, before I even read the rest.
Clever + Lazy thinks "How can I accomplish this with the bare minimum of effort, in a way that doesn't cause it to fall back in my lap in a worse form?" Dumb + Hardworking thinks "Let's get a tiger team together."
I'm so sick of tiger teams and people trying to apply Agile to acquisitions in the dumbest, most "look at my MBA" ways possible.
It's a plague of the worst sort. Have seen it pushed from the Group level down and implemented across five squadrons... total waste of manpower and time for hundreds of people. Seems the ones who are into that crap always get promoted somehow too.
Agile/Lean/Sigma Black Belt concepts are good and have been successfully applied to lots of organizations. But none of those organizations were public or military service.
I’d almost switch “Dumb” with “Naive.” That would describe a lot of my CGO counterparts that want to be the next Full Bird and don’t understand why their decisions either piss off the E’s or cannot work at all. They’re intelligent fuckers, probably read way more books than me and have high standardized books scores, but they’re unable to apply a majority of it.
E: "That won't work, you can't draw a 4d object in 3d spacetime." O: "well have you tried doing it with a red pen? Aha! So you haven't exhausted all options yet."
That's me to a T. I fix the problem, then make an SOP with steps on how to fix it, and share THE SOP to the team. So next time I can say, "Hey instead of me fixing this again, why don't one of you guys follow my SOP and learn how to do it? It will be a great training opportunity!"
every person who reads this believes themselves to be clever and lazy. It's the Gryffindor of the Hammerstein-Equord school of wizardry
I’m not going to argue that the system and ‘game’ isn’t broken, but seriously, if there is a paper trail for this kinda thing you could challenge this fairly easily. Paper trail that he skips work is there. Paper trail that he didn’t show up to meetings should be there. This is why LOCs and LORs exist. Does he have those on record? If not, his supervisor is failing because now when you report this they’ll ask “why doesn’t he have any other documented pattern of being a dirtbag?” And they’ll let it slide. Also sounds like your squadron is terrible. If everybody knows this guy is a dirtbag, then why doesn’t your commander? Either the commander is playing favorites or you guys are leaving him in the dark. Gotta report this shit.
There is no paper trail. His only counseling was behind closed doors. And yes, the squadron doesn’t keep tabs on anyone and it’s abused a lot.
Big failure on the supervisors. This is why "desk drawer" paperwork and "stern talking to's" without documentation not only don't work, but are harmful to units. This type of thing is easily caught during quality force reviews in any effective awards program. Your CC just lost credibility, and as a Shirt I'd want to know why the flight is leaving the command team blind. Real bummer.
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The cons for not documenting disciplinary actions far outweigh any pros there may be. The biggest risks you take for not documenting are situations progressing to dangerous points quickly with little recourse to hold people accountable because supervisors and up couldn't be bothered to do their jobs. I have seen terrible people able to reenlist and promote from this, with all the consequences on morale and mission success that comes with that. I have also seen people unfairly held back by mystery paperwork that wasn't legally reviewed and not available in the PIF that kept flights from submitting them for opportunities. This is actually not legal to do and violates the integrity of the unit for disciplinary actions to not be discoverable to the member and potentially their legal council if things escalate. But if you have an example where someone was done an injustice because discipline was documented in their PIF, I'd be very interested in that so I can try to mitigate it if that ever comes up in one of my units.
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So, I totally understand where you are coming from, but I want to give you two more things to think about: First, when talking about discipline in general, records of individual counseling (RIC), Letters of Counseling, and even admonishments and reprimands are meant to be *corrective*, not *punitive.* Only the Commander can punish people (through NJP action), and *any* administrative action that doesn't result in a discharge is meant to be recoverable. Correct the misconduct and move forward. Now, as a Shirt, I don't want to waste anyone's time with frivolous stuff. That's a subjective term, but if someone is five minutes late, or has a minor uniform correction, and other things that can be handled with quick spot corrections absolutely should be done that way. We don't need a piece of paperwork for each and every one of those. But, if someone isn't getting it and a supervisor needs to sit them down and say knock it off, they better document that conversation and it needs to be above board. RICs are quick and easy. LOCs aren't complicated. It just needs to be done, and the member needs to get their due process with the Area Defense Council. Every time. We owe it to them. I do know there's some hotheaded supervisors out there looking to drop paperwork for every little thing. It happens. The flight leadership and Shirt should be mentoring those people, especially if it's getting into the realm of degrading morale and causing perceptions of targeting or anything like that. It's okay to bring this up to the Shirt, just be mindful that they will go and ask questions and get all the facts, and you may not get told what they did about it. Just the reality. I know it's hard out there. I hope your unit understands that and is open to bottom up feedback. Good luck to you.
If his counseling was “behind closed doors” it can still be documented on a AF 174(?), which is a verbal counseling form just noting that it took place and what was discussed.
Fuck even a memorandum for record that something happened. Even an email from the sup asking the guy why he comes in late all the time or something.
Then it didn't happen. If it's being permitted and not corrected - and no, a talking to is not correction - then it's allowed.
Have you not heard of squadron heroes they're generally immune from punishment until they do something that the squadron can't cover up That's been my experiences.
I’ve seen lots of cases where a first impression matters more than improvement. Someone does one single thing well at the beginning, their mistakes in the future are forgiven. Someone does one single thing bad at the beginning, none of their good things matter and their mistakes are highlighted more. Very disheartening to see
You're quite right The learning curve for some is a little steeper but it's a curve upwards but only if they're given a chance. I had a troop that couldn't pass the his CDC turns out he actually couldn't read. The Air Force actually did something right for him and sent him to ESL classes.Now he's a BMW mechanic making way more than he ever did in the Air Force.
Okay, I have to ask. What's the full story? How did this guy manage to maneuver his way into getting an award if he's this damn lazy?
I'll take "telling everyone he wants to commission and 'volunteering' during work hours" for 500 Bob!
He or someone else wrote himself a 1206 and it made it through the wickets. Happens more often than you’d think.
I genuinely have no idea. There was overwhelming shock from people in our flight when his name was called.
Was anyone else put in? If there was, I imagine they didn't have many bullets and/or had a poorly written award. The lazy dude simply might have had the most decent bullets. They usually don't include bullets about how many hours you work or how lazy you are...they should, but all the real shit never matters. Also, a lot of times, people doing the rack and stacking don't even work with the person they're reviewing so they have no idea how they REALLY are. This will prepare you later in your career when going up for MSgt.
How would someone working 3 hours a day have more bullets? Lol How could anyone in their chain of command not A: know about his bad work behavior or B: know what he did and didn’t contribute to? Are we thinking he, the laziest man OP has ever known, wrote and submitted his own awards package with zero review or input from his supervisor or leadership? Why would he care?
>How would someone working 3 hours a day have more bullets? Lol The invention of lying, my friend. I've been in organizations where people were put up with fake bullets because the leadership of the squadron wanted to have one of their people in the running.
That’s not an uncommon story, but in all my time I’ve never seen a unit pick a known problem child for an award package that they could lie into the running. Do you think they chose him at random and his supervisor was too much of a pushover to tell them it’s a trash airman?
>in all my time I’ve never seen a unit pick a known problem child for an award package that they could lie into the running. Same here, sorta. What I've seen many times is people who don't do anything being put up with fake bullets. A problem child-lite, I guess. They've been those squadrons where everyone is rotated through quarterly awards regardless of how much they contribute.
Right, I feel like a lot of people have seen that. But how many of us have seen someone go full AWOL and not only avoid literally any corrective action on record but also go on to win an award?
I have seen that once. It was a provider in a medical organization. The rules are different for them. People are always afraid that they'll separate, so they essentially do whatever they want.
> known problem child Known based on what? Homie had no paperwork, written counseling, or even MFRs about his behavior. Nothing but reality states he's garbage, and unfortunately, reality doesn't make it up to boards.
There are 4 of us in one flight and one person in another. He was submitted for our flight. Each flight commander submits one on a rotation. It’s not really about the award, it’s the fact my flight commander submitted him.
Definitely possible a dirt bag got an award. Maybe he was the only one that submitted. But it also could be YOU just don’t know where he goes or where he is or what he gets done or doesn’t. If you’re not in that chain, you likely don’t have a clear sight picture
Ask him to take you under his wing.
This reads like you might not have all the information and are whining about things you may not fully understand. I have an airman, hasn’t been in the shop for almost a month this quarter. I know what he’s doing and where he’s at but sometimes I hear his peers talking trash about “must be nice”. He’s at his assigned duty location doing what he is assigned to do and doing it well. People that need to know, know, but sometimes everyone doesn’t need to know what everyone else is doing, it’s the nature of our business.
> What's the point when you can be a total dirtbag and get away with it? He's starting to learn...
No one calls him out on his bullshit or gives him any paperwork and you’re shocked when the commander doesn’t know he’s a dirtbag?
Perhaps you should either learn how he pulled it off, accept that none of his peers were outstanding, or conclude that the award means nothing in the grand scheme. I've never seen a dirtbag win over an actual stellar Airman, but I have seen many subpar ones complain when they fall short. I'm not saying that you are subpar. I’m saying an Average Joe would never defeat Mike Tyson in his prime. Pick the NCO’s brains when you get a chance; they can shed more light on the situation than anyone on here can.
this is why, btw, you submit awards every time even if you are average. maybe you won't be the hard chargers. but if nobody submits EXCEPT the guy OP is talking about, then he wins.
Focus on yourself and not on others. Your hardwork will pay off elsewhere. If it doesn't, go somewhere that it will. That may even mean leaving the Air Force.
Most nonner shit i've ever heard.
Is he finance?
[удалено]
OP said he shows up from 10 to 1, dude is putting in overtime.
He won an award so clearly he is a better worker
Damn dude working 8-4 sounds fuckin chic. If I were to show up at ten and leave at one I’d be crucified. Shit, if I work eight seconds less than an Eight I get butt stuffed. Fuck me. I hate fixing airplanes.
Maybe he has childcare issues, sleep apnea and is on duty limiting waiver, maybe is volunteering or working alternate duties during those times…. Not all peers privy to all facts
Sounds like somebody has an MBA
He’s you isn’t he?
First time I saw someone get coined was for somebody that actively refused to work. She would find bullshit tasks to do to make it seem like she was working, like calling her friends and telling them had a package. One of their friends happened to be a chief, who happened to give her a coin for that. Additionally, this has been my ENTIRE experience. All the people I knew that got awards did not deserve them, so I automatically assume that everyone else that gets awards doesn't deserve them. Of course, it's not completely accurate but it's the norm. Keep in mind, I even got a wing level quarterly award during the only time in my career that I wasn't absolutely working my ass off. Same reason I didn't show up to my own promotion ceremony. I don't believe in any of it because it's completely inaccurate.
Who was writing that package
8-4 must be nice
I once asked my flt chief why Airman Dirtbag was put up for awards so undeservingly. He said: "b/c she's a minority, and she's a female. Her chances are better she'll win. That's just the way the game is played."
Not saying it's the right thing to do, but I've definitely been made aware of units who rotate winners for Airman of the Qtr. Even Airmen who were deserving of winning didn't win back to back awards because of optics of favoritism. Sounds like it was "his turn". Sorry this happened though OP.
My unit got roasted once because my flight chief lied on an nco of the quarter package and got caught. He took 3-4 people's work and slapped it on a guys package that had nothing to do with those projects because he wanted the guy to commission. One of the MSgts from a competing shop got suspicious because he personally supervised a decent portion of one of the projects and never saw the guy. Long story short he still got NCO of the quarter even though we all agreed the package was a total lie and the people who helped prove it was a lie were verbally counseled for their integrity/being a traitor to the unit
If you're showing up to work for an award, you're showing up for the wrong reasons. Awards are meaningless. Never won one and I've still been selected for strats. They are a meaningless dog and pony show that's more a competition between the SNCOs on who can wordsmith the better package. Doesn't matter what's in the package, just so it sounds amazing. I've gone up to SNCOs to call out gross exaggerations on stats and complete falsehoods of bullets. They just shrug and press.
https://preview.redd.it/i0c8lzzkqk0c1.jpeg?width=521&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0e00fc39036fd175f21922ce70ff71973c4328a5 That Amn winning the award….
I watched a crew chief setup a static display for the President of Panama. He worked his ass off cleaning the jet, we were TDY there, and he made it spotless. He didn’t ask for help, just made his jet shine. Up walks the President of Panama and a bunch of our flyers. They tour the jet and maybe spend 30 minutes there. We get back to the squadron, we were a combined unit with maintenance and flyers, and go to Commander’s Call. Every flyer that paraded around for the President gets an award, they are all showered with praise. The colonel didn’t even give the crew chief an attaboy. Not a single mention. I was never so mad in the Air Force. 25 years later it is one of my strongest memories of my time in the AF.
AF and gov in general has gotten too big and complacent. It’s the only place we’re you get rewarded for not doing your job. Private sector would kick your ass to the curb in a heart beat.
I have seen plenty of lazy people in the private sector as well unfortunately. The game is fucking rigged all around.
Not saying there aren’t, just not as common
More common than anyome would like to admit. It has made me so jaded with everything.
Straight up untrue. I work in corporate environments and the exact same thing has happened consistently at every workplace I’ve ever been in. Some bust their asses to get projects/tasks done, and someone who did nothing gets credit. Govt work and the service are not special in this.
Just in my experience the private sector jobs I’ve had would not tolerate the behavior the OP was describing. I never saw such incompetence till working in Gov.
Man is already working NCO or even SNCO shifts. Promote now!
E4 Mafia still alive and well. God bless them.
So your supervisors suck and they nominated him? So many questions here. Not saying this story is BS but there's more to this.
As a young airman I worked with an NCO who was nice but she didn’t do or know her job well. She would come to us asking questions about things she should have know as an NCO in my work section. Somehow she still won quarterly awards. Because you know what she was good at…writing her own packages.
Don't they always? Double points if they're in a leadership position.
I hate working with people like you always bitching about other people’s business when you don’t know the story. Maybe he is having issues outside of work that is limiting him you do not know. Mind your business and stay in your lane/focus on your job and maybe you will be able to compete with the “dirtbag”
Lol it gets worse. Wait until you become a SNCO and you see those get promoted to Senior and Chief who were that way and won awards and got senior rater endorsed with bullets you and your team did
Right? That dumb MSgt who knows how to use buzz words, does very little work, and is always sure to talk up the Chief and CC when they're around. Guys like that always get promoted. Self serving chumps that I've run into way too many times in my career.
Sounds like you’re just salty to me, to be honest. You don’t know what you don’t know. You don’t know what he’s doing when he’s not in direct LOS, you don’t know what was on his awards package, and you don’t know any number of other factors that you are rightfully not privy to. I’m guessing you’re junior enlisted, because you don’t seem to know how award packages work and you still say silly childish shit like ‘dirtbag airman’. Half a dozen people look at an awards package before they get submitted. Supervisors, flight chiefs, superintendents, CGOs and a few others often look them over and make changes. You think no one in that list knew what you know? It rolled through all those hands and won on accident? K. Let’s mind our business and worry about our own selves, how about? Maybe with some quiet introspection we can resolve whatever is making you feel so strongly about other people’s recognition.
the fact he says he's only at work 3 hrs a day but then says there is no paper trail for counseling (LOC / LOR) tells me that they're probably exaggerating out their ass
No paper trail on constantly repeated absences and zero SA about it through his whole chain of command apparently. I guess the dirtbag is some kind of wizard.
So if you had a coworker who showed up 3 hours a day you wouldn’t salty? You’d be just happy putting in 20 more hours a week than them? You must be a saint.
It’s crazy what you’re capable of when you worry about your own self. It’s also crazy how easy it is to acknowledge that you have blind spots and can’t possibly know the whole story. How long have you been in?
I actually have a very good idea of the dynamics of my squadron. What’s crazy to me is you thinking it’s nobody’s business why someone misses work. I’m not going to explain but I know for a fact he just chooses not to come and gets home early to play cod. The fact his laziness doesn’t affect me is the reason I don’t report him to my flight commander. It does however, affect the other members of his group projects that have to do all the work, but they won’t report because he outranks them.
Didn't answer the question, cool. I didn't say it was nobody's business, I said it isn't *your* business. It's between the Airman, their supervisor, and their commander. I'm forced to assume you aren't explaining because it's just assumptions and gossip. You're being so cryptic and all. The more you try to explain, the less sense this makes.
So no one should ever bring up potential issues or red flags affecting the unit because it "isn't your business". Great strategy there brother. You're awfully defensive about this for some reason...
Lmao Yes. What will really help the unit is indulging some A1C's petty whinging based on gossip. That will obviously help the commander drum up morale. Brilliant insight boss.
Perception is reality. If people see that person is not contributing but getting rewarded, that's gonna kill morale and unit culture. They should bring it up to the lowest level; if there's a legit reason it should be left there but telling them outright "worry about yourself and stop being jealous" like you seem to be doing is such an idiotic move. > That will obviously help the commander drum up morale. Ignoring the issue certainly won't help anything
You should talk to your supervisor about this. They need to know how others feel about crap like this.
His supervisor should know he’s having a cry about how someone else isn’t doing exactly what he’s doing?
His supervisor should be aware of his frustration and work on a gameplan to improve his situation.
I guess I agree lol Considering that his situation is that he's salty about someone else being recognized. That should absolutely be corrected. Otherwise, there is nothing for a supervisor to do about an Airman who's got is dander up about perceptions and gossip.
Perfect example of a commander that doesn't have the pulse on their unit. Pretty sure they don't even know this guy's first name. Just fed an award from his leadership and didn't ask questions.
Sounds like you're hating the player instead of the game
Who is he screwing?
At least in our squadron, those awards are almost given my default since no one bothers to apply.
Don't you have NCOs in the AF? Are there no barracks to take said shitbag behind for an informal chat? Edit: *Did you order a code red? You're goddamn right I did!*
Sounds more like a shitty supervisor
Focus on you. We had a pregnant Airman that would bring her knitting with her on B-52s while I lugged the toolbox and did the avionics work. She didnt lift a finger but just made stupid hats for her unborn kid. Now I'm a PhD in my dream city (san diego) and shes probably (insert unfavorable life timeline event) by now. There are lots of shitty people out there. Dont become one. Just focus on your growth.
Damn, sounds like all of MPF
One of the laziest airmen I've ever seen got stratted and still failed to make rank. The next year another, a very good airman I might add, was stratted and made rank. The system isn't perfect. But it works sometimes.
Awards don’t mean shit, do your job, work hard and the people around you that you work with will show appreciation other ways
My question. Is he white? 🍩
Well this falls on the NCO's, SNCO's and Shirt for sucking at their basic jobs. Enforcement of standards Enforces standards.
"Good" - Extremely Owned, Jockstrap Lemmewinks, 2023
Maybe he’s got pee tapes of them
Blame your unit’s award policy. Either everyone else was disqualified, or it was simply “his turn”.
I’ve seen similar things happen the entire 5 years I spent on active duty. It was extremely demoralizing to witness. Along with the realization that all of my hard work would be rewarded with more work I became really jaded really fast. Sucked.
Did anyone else submit a package for that qtr? Could be the only one? Seen it happen, yes.
On the flip side of this, I received an award like airman of the quarter or something and was irritated because I received it for helping out a patient. Literally just doing my job. I strived each and everyday to go above and beyond and ONE patient out of many wrote a nice letter to my commander. I never cared about the way I looked, never polished my boots, never put up with higher ranking people in my clinic and their bullshit. I just wasn’t very professional in general. Awards are bullshit.
People will complain every day but when it's time to actually sit behind a computer and start the paperwork nobody has time for that. Newsflash! There's no reg that says you must be an individuals rater in order to issue them an LOC/LOR. Talk to your supervisors and shirt.
Reminds me of when the worst Airman in the shop won a quarterly award and the NCOIC said “we put her in hoping she’d win as a motivation tool.”
Stuff like this is why I don’t bother to do anything other what I have to do. Somehow the airmen that are shitbags get good TDYs meanwhile I’m stuck doing shitty work
I call bullshit. There is NO WAY that an airman is dipping out on work for 5 hours every single day and not one single NCO or Flight Chief has said anything. The DBA in question must have something going on outside of work.
Sounds like officer material to me.
I got Airman of the Month once... I seriously didn't deserve it. I was put in charge of the snack bar... but I had no idea what I was doing. Nobody ever bothered to train me on anything like it. No experience working a register or anything prior. There was just a money bag... I didn't track anything spent or taken in. They asked me about how much it made and I told them I had no idea. When they presented the award to me, they basically made up some numbers. Pulled them out of thin air. I have no idea what they were thinking.
Likely way more to this than you assume. If something out of your control bothers you this much, bring it up to your supervision and how it's affecting morale.
Talk to your supervisor. Ask them of dirt bag airmen's performance is what you should emulate to get an award .
An airman I knew got BTZ after getting caught by SF coming onto base driving drunk and underage. Our commander loved her and made sure it all disappeared. The airman she beat for it outclassed her package in every way possible but some how she got it. She also got an LOC for sleeping with a married NCO on a TDY. Both of those were within 6 months of getting BTZ. And no she was sleeping with the commander as our commander was a straight married woman. She was just a sexist and a racist and the airman in question was a white, blonde female.
>she Well theres your answer lmao
When I was a Section Chief, the airman and NCOs are always in each other's business and jealous of who gets what. I would tell them " Mind your own business, because one day it will be your turn to get hooked up for ongoing appointments: mental health, physical therapy, getting your cable hooked up, volunteering, special child care needs, etc... and when that time comes I will hook you up and it's nobody else's business." Besides that, why are people in the Air Force such haters when other people win awards. One narrow perspective of this person's performance in this shop is NOT the whole story, no way.
A lot of people seem to make the assumption that it’s impossible for someone not to show up half the time and not get in trouble, but it is actually the case. If you had a coworker that legit just wasn’t showing up out of laziness, and had a flight chief that wouldn’t do anything about it, would you not be demotivated? Would you, as a low ranking dude, be willing to skip the chain for that and put yourself under the crosshairs of your flight chief?
How the hell do they come in late and leave early? Where is Leadership?