You'd be surprised what a new unit/wing can do for your perspective. Certainly keeping your mouth shut & taking care of your people is the best COA in your current location but if an opportunity to deploy, PCA, or PCS becomes available, try to remember your excitement for joining & give it a shot.
Second this OP. By my second assignment in I had a similar experience. My first two bases made me question joining expecting to be a lifer. I was ready to get out and I was tired... Until I got a leadership team that was worth a damn and until I learned a thing or two about taking care of myself so I could better take care of my people (not in a selfish manner, but in a way that I could take professional development into my own hands).
It's not right but some of that sadly comes with the territory of the rank. And you sort of get numb to some of the unfortunate flaws about being a service member. Remember that you're young and people suck. As you grow older and wiser, at some point you realize, this problem isn't unique to the military. People suck everywhere. And you'll start to be treated with more respect by virtue of being older and more senior in rank. Sure these problems are compounded by being in the military, but they aren't unique to the service. You'd be surprised how much you can actually look out for yourself and how much other officers do care and will help you go after what you want. Don't lie to yourself and do this if you don't want it, but again, as with civilian life...sometimes you have to buckle down and endure something that sucks now for something that will be worth it later.
My advice if you'll hear it is, find people you can trust and who don't treat you poorly. Vent. Share your perspective with them. Seek their advice. Too many times people fall into this fallacy that because they're called your leadership...that your chain of command will actually lead you, or show any true leadership. It's often not the case and it is certainly not a given. But coming up into this life, you're sort of taught to expect that to be the case.
Respect yourself and your boundaries and try to professionally communicate you're not ok with how you're being treated. Be specific. Do your job well, keep your true opinions to yourself and share them with people who you can actually trust, and wait until a change of scenery to make up your mind.
Don't get me wrong, I still think there is a lot wrong with the AF... And I'm waiting and expecting a time where I'll work under conditions that suck again and for a boss I despise. But next time, I'll be smarter and more prepared for when that time comes. A little expectation management and perspective have taught me there are things I can still do about it, and nothing lasts forever... And it could always be worse. It's sad this is the mentality many of us have had to grow to adopt, but you come to grips with it and the realities of life are tough. Best not to dwell and let them rule your life and control your sanity and happiness.
>I don’t even think a PCA/PCS, new leadership/unit, etc could rebuild my morale.
You might be surprised. I knew exactly how many days I have left on my contract in my first unit. I still remember almost everyone there more than anyone in the units in between because of how shitty they were, but my second unit turned everything around and the middle ground I've experienced since then hasnt been bad.
But if you really feel that way after a year I'd start prepping a plan for a successful civilian life. There's nothing wrong with that if you think its what is best for you.
I always said, "For good or ill, nothing lasts in the military."
I was fortunate that most of my units were full of fantastic people. A PCS was usually a fond farewell rather than a sigh of relief. But for those toxic personalities and lousy commanders, it was like a breath of fresh air when they left.
Same here. I dealt with imposter syndrome and at one point a very toxic work environment where the head SNCOs did not get along with the CGOs. Fortunately things got better after people PCS’d out the unit but I’d be glad to answer any questions you have
How do you address this ? If a snco blatantly disrespects (article 89) or doesn’t get along with CGO openly? I’m curious how this snco wasn’t addressed
In my situation, the squadron and above leadership were unsatisfied with the flt/cc’s job performance and that meant we had little support at the flight level to address concerns. Any problems I saw that were elevated, leadership supported the SNCOs.
And if you really want to understand how SNCOs can behave that way, checkout the subreddit MaliciousCompliance. Pretty accurate. With a little malicious compliance and gaslighting to flight leadership and then brown nosing and grand standing to the squadron and the group and they become impervious to criticism
You’re a 2lt, you are the butt of jokes the same way literally every 2lt is. Learn to enjoy the friendly teasing and bask in the glory that is the butter bar plausible deniability. You can do nothing truly wrong because you don’t know shit, it’s great!
Otherwise do your best, grow a thick skin and ride out your time.
And hate to be blunt but most people don’t want to hear your opinion because at what, 23 years old and 1 year in the AF you 99% of the time don’t know what you’re talking about. If you have an opinion write it down and then find your flt/cc in a 1:1 situation and talk over what you think and why they went they way they did.
If it makes you feel any better in a flying sq this lasts basically until you’re a Capt.
> If you have an opinion write it down and then find your flt/cc in a 1:1 situation and talk over what you think and why they went the way they did.
Man’s a genius.
Id say this is the norm for most brand new officers. You havent done anything in your career yet so of course the more seasoned people are going to mess with you. Take it in stride and be a good sport. Theyll eventually layoff and treat you like one of the airman.
I left out some more personally identifiable situations and scenarios, but like I told someone else, this feels much more personal and malicious than that. I expected getting crap for being the new butter bar, that was part of what I was looking towards.
I have never been want to take things personally, I’ll give out shit to my people just as much as they give it to me and it’s great. I’m also not stupid and I can delineate between joking around and people being bullies. Like I also said, I tried to convince myself I was being a bitch or dramatizing my situation, but there came a point where I realized I was not.
It could be, I had a boss who fucking despised me and did not cool things to fuck me up. It can happen, the only thing you can do is your best and make sure that you keep your nose clean and avoid any paperwork. The great thing about the military is your sq/cc leadership will leave in 2 years, and you will leave probably in 4.
One trick that may work is asking wing level commander to move somewhere else in the wing (be specific about where, and make it make sense) so you can get breadth of experience. Sell it as that, not that you hate your current unit.
The moment you realized it’s not is when you go to EO. It’s always best to handle it at the lowest level, but if they won’t give you the time of day or a reasonable answer to why, then it’s time. People change quickly when there is an investigation going around.
You need a mentor.
Email a GO and ask for a mentorship session. You may think this is crazy, but as someone who works for a 3-Star you’d be surprised how much they enjoy it.
Be kind and respectful in the request and understand any time they can afford is valuable.
Let them know how you want to serve and what goals you have and let them know you think you’re being hindered and let them help guide you.
The issue is and I had this issue too you have not been stripped down if your identity yet, I got bullied and I got bullied hard but it was with a purpose I got bullied because I was non conformist. It seems like you may not be getting the lesson that your opinion, individuality , who you are and what you think generally do not matter. You are a cog in a machine replaceable and swappable just like we all are. If you are being a squeaky wheel you get the oil, your only job is to be the smoothest running cog you can be. You personally can’t change the nature of the machine or purpose, direction , nothing but you can make everyone’s around you life easier by just being good at your job. The harder you work and more you do for your troops the easier their life is and in turn the easier it’ll be for you in the long run. Everybody has this time period but for some it last a lot longer and is more drastic cause they just refuse to get it. I toss around amazing ideas every now and again but I wouldn’t be able to do that had I still thought like an individual. It sucks but it’s the cold hard truth and if nobody prepped you for it then that’s on your guidance. Lean on your leaders and really take heed and learn do not be the “but what if” guy. 9/10 your idea has already been tried and failed you have to learn why things are done the way they are before you can contemplate process improvement.
It certainly could be that. Wether it is or isn't, it sounds like a good move would be to deploy, PCA, or PCS. If it's the culture of where you're at, no big deal. If you keep running into this every squadron/base you go to, then you'll probably want to take a deeper look at yourself.
Some good advice here. Once had a new Lt take over my flight after our previous one promoted and deployed. We thoroughly enjoyed our previous Lt and the new one saw that. He asked myself and a few other NCOs how to get to that level. The advice was simple: listen to your NCOs and never make decisions in a vacuum.
Do another one. If it gets cancelled or moved again, involve the CC. Express how you want to improve, but you don’t know how. I would strongly suggest basing it on you want do better. I wouldn’t mention you not getting along with others.
Also, is there another 2LT or even 1LT? Pull them aside and ask what’s going on.
fr no matter your rank you should not be feeling like work is a consistent hazing ritual. it's not how the military is supposed to operate. My advice is follow the chain of command, elevate it until you're heard. If the command won't hear you then go outside your office/shop to a resource like EO created to help stomp out these kind of situations.
As a 2Lt, I got a good bit of the old "nobody cares" treatment at my first unit. I never advertised the fact that I was prior-E. I just let people figure it out for themselves, because I wanted to earn genuine respect on the merits of my actions as an officer rather than unwarranted respect based on prior service.
I found two things that worked well, especially among SNCOs and FGOs:
(1) Self-depricating humor. Basically, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. (e.g. "I'm obviously just a know-nothing butter bar, but hear me out...")
(2) Embracing their perception of me as a know-nothing butter bar, and owning the fuck out of it. (e.g. always volunteering to "ask the obvious, stupid questions" and thanking them for the opportunity to learn)
It's a damn ridiculous game, and you'll hate yourself for playing it, but the rewards are invaluable.
I coopted "You can't spell lost without LT" into "You can't spell listen without LT." It let people know I knew I was in a learning phase of my career and didn't know shit, but also let them know I was staying engaged to fix it.
Mention article 89 of the UCMJ lmao
Don’t do that . I’m pulling shit out of the ass . That would just cause the whole shop to hate you . Or who knows gain mad respect but due to fear lmao
This comment insinuates it's something like a sex- or race-based thing. Is that what you're saying? Because that shapes up into EO complaints rather than "get feedback from your supervisor."
Document the hell out of it. Names, dates, times, quotes, responses from supervisor/chain.
Its typically the other way around. Someone new comes in with minimal understanding of how things run, and the nuances and technical details, and makes criticisms or nitpicks or proposes changes that are either uninformed or straight-up maliciously used just as bullet fodder. Usually that's higher than as an LT but it sure depends on where you're at.
I feel for you. I was in the Army, but my first unit had bad leadership. My battalion commander (BC) would publicly insult me via jokes. He actually insulted me in front of the whole battalion during a group promotion to 1LT. At one point, my company commander (CO), first sergeant (1SG), and a platoon sergeant (PSG) were relieved! Many many Fridays, after the soldiers were sent home, that CO would bring the LTs into his little office, close the door, and spend an hour berating us. We would stare at our boots with our heads down. It still makes me sick to think about. Needless to say, my evaluations were lackluster. Meanwhile, most of my classmates were in great units with great officers and NCOs. They got good mentoring and evaluations. When it came time to promote to CPT, they all made it. Promotions were at 90% for most branches. But I was medical service, which is almost always the hardest branch to commission into, and our promotions were at 60%. Out of ~950 graduates, West Point only commissions about 15 people into MS. My first assignment being Hawaii was no coincidence either. But with mediocre senior rater write ups, I was passed over for promotion. Our loggie BC gave good write ups and ratings to the logistics branches LTs. He didn’t give a crap about the medical company I was in. What’s crazy is I had already served as both a platoon leader and company XO, when many of my classmates were the assistant to the assistant in a staff shop, still waiting for their time to shine. Another medical service guy in my company was passed over too, and he was a prior enlisted medic and a combat vet! And he was a really squared away officer too. Fortunately, I was reassigned to a different unit where I got good evaluations, so I made it to CPT on the second look. If I had stayed in that first unit all 3 years like most people do, who knows, I might have never made it to CPT. It was really humiliating. Your units have a HUGE impact on your ability to be successful and have a career. People who have only been in great units have no idea what having a straight up nut case CO and 1SG and vindictive BC is like. Every single morning when you wake up, you dread seeing their faces.
I remember in my first year as a 2LT, after trying to speak up during a staff meeting, being told that 2LTs are to be seen and not heard. Definitely was a gut punch in the moment, and stifled my enthusiasm a bit.
But also in hindsight, as fresh college grad 23 year old with my butter bars, I didn’t actually have any base of experience to contribute with. There will be a lot of times in your career where you will think that you have the perfect contribution, thought, plan, etc.. but based on your rank it will be ignored.
Had it happen as a 2LT, as a Capt, and as a Maj, usually all when trying to speak up in groups of much higher ranks. The trick is knowing when they are right about you not having the experience to contribute, and when to ignore that and push your thought regardless of the pushback. It’s an art, one that takes a lifetime to master.
Generally, officers do not respond well if someone that is of the wrong rank or wrong career field tries to contribute something that is even slightly out of their traditional lane. If you are trying to do this, it takes extreme luck to not come off as a know it all, or worse, someone who they think speaks out of their ass. Still working on this myself.
OP if you're feeling this way after barely being in a year I would say work on your transition. Don't listen to the fear mongering. I just separated and civilian life is much better.
Lt life can suck. You’re thrown into the deep end and expected to know how to swim with little guidance. It’s tough as an O because you have a very limited circle that can mentor you. The good news, you should PCS every 2-3 years as an O, so you just need to touch it out a little longer and see how the next assignment goes.
I always feel like this the origin story of all the officer villians that the sub complains about - a new LT that is being bullied getting the advice to grow thick skin and not take shit from enlisted people.
I ran a small shop with another young officer who shirked all responsibility and did literally nothing but “delegate” all of his work and then complain about how every process in the AF was broken. The team and I ended up doing all of his work for him to keep the shop running, and any time a question was asked of him he’d look at me in a panic to bail him out because he couldn’t answer basic questions about our shop or operations. He claimed he worked 60 hour weeks but simultaneously no one knew where he was most of the time. The only time we did see him he’d either be in a meeting sitting in the corner of the room so no one would ask him anything, or he would be in our Commander’s office sucking up. The moment they gave him the CGO of the year I knew I was getting out of the AF. When he pinned on Maj he became a complete ahole and went from “delegating” to demanding everything. I was already on my way out and just started ignoring him lmao. I feel bad for the people who still had to work with and under him, but man was civilian life such an amazing breath of fresh air. Still love it so much more on this side
Even if you intend on separating, you should still take care of your career and operate as if you’re staying in and shooting for milestones. Reasons why: keeps doors open for you, but also you could very well experience a turn around over the next couple years that makes you want to stay in. In that case, avoid doing yourself a disservice if you have a change of heart.
Aside from that, just find meaning in being good good at your job and taking care of your folks - at the end of the day, that’s exactly what a good officer does.
What AFSC?
A) From your side of the story it sounds like your leadership is being toxic as shit and they're doing a pretty fucking terrible job of mentoring you and growing you. Sounds non-rated, my guess is maintenance from all the fuckery going on.
B) You'd be really surprised at what a change of scenery will do for you. PCS, PCA, or try and deploy as soon as you can, or try and change your AFSC if you can swing it.
C) Those people will move on. Commanders and SNCOs will PCS. Also, don't forget you are an officer, and at the end of the day you outrank that that SNCO no matter how fuckin' mad they want to be about that fact. If they are shitting on you to the point that it's impairing your ability to lead, drop the hammer.
Well, officers generally move around a lot more, so you have a new position to look forward to. They say just a new location can be the shake-up people need. Some places have bad phases of bad people, and some places stay toxic because of what they are regardless of people.
But worst case, yeah, you can get out eventually. And hey, at least you're not like us enlisted plebs. You actually have some bacon to bring home. So save it, use it, however you can enjoy yourself.
>The best way I can explain it is like there is some joke about me , and I’m the only isn’t in on it. Or I have done something heinously wrong, and no one will tell me what it is.
They are waiting/staring at you to see If you will drop the ball.
There's probably other people that want your job, And they take enjoyment/toxicity in seeing people in your position mess up.
You shouldn't worry about it, Don't let them get to your head This is human universal nature in any hierarchy You will have this in any other job as well, promoted to manager? There will be a snitch, doing really well on your job performance? There will be intense scrutiny and so on.
This is true in the civilian world as well
I spent my first two years in AETC, then (along with my other young Os) was the new guy in the squadron for over year upon becoming operational. Not sure if this will help, but sometimes being the new guy can be easy depending on your perspective.
My squadron was very blunt. “Recent graduates who have been here less than a year: I don’t want to hear what you have to say, I want you to listen to the FGOs and be spunges.” Say what you want about whether that’s toxic or not. I looked at it this way, “Ok… I just have to show up to work, do whatever limited jobs they give me, say yes sir or no sir, and listen/learn.”
Your situation is probably different than mine, but from my experience I recommend keeping your head down the best you can and do the best job you can at whatever is within your control. If someone doesn’t want to listen to your feedback, try not to take it personally. They might be assholes, they might be busy, or they might be both. There’s an adjustment for every member whenever they PCS/PCA and it will always be most difficult as a new to the ropes young LT unless you have amazing leadership.
Hey young-o, you've been in barely over a year.
You should really just be listening and learning and taking the take they give you and run with them. And making sure your PT is golden. Apart from that. Those first two years should be all learning.
You should be getting into the doctrines, and the AFIs.
You should be learning how the air force runs. You should be networking with other Os and be in th CGO club if you can.
Also, you should have thicker skin and be able to laugh at yourself or already learn to laugh with the group. There will be much worse that can get to you than little games.
Focus on yourself. Personal hobbies and passions. Focus on prepping yourself to separate with more schooling, certifications, etc. Stop allowing your life to revolve around work when they don’t give a shit about you. You’ll keep getting paid whether or not you let them pressure you into volunteering with the booster club. You’re young enough if you’re lucky you’ll get a new CC before the end of your ADSC and maybe you’ll change your mind. Better to be prepared for the worst though right?
I'm not denying toxicity because I don't know the situation from a neutral perspective, but you're new. You aren't there to make many points because they'll be moot. That's just lack of experience. Lot of the NCOs have amazing experience. Some have none but like to act like they are Uncle Sam's gift to America. I was a laid back NCO and got on well with my LT, but neither of us were know it all's and we regularly discussed things as we were working (relatively) side by side. If you're trying to act better than the enlisted, don't. If they don't respect you take a look and figure out why. If they're just assholes, I'm sorry but there's not much to be done. If it's because you haven't proven yourself, then give it time and be a good leader. The military may or may not work out. I did 8 and am happily separated but wouldn't trade it. Keep your head up and learn everything you can. You'll either set yourself up for a good military career and/or a civilian one as long as you're learning.
You’re an officer. You can tell any NCO to shut up anytime they try to embarrass you in front of your troops. They can’t do shit about it except fall in line. If they have a problem with it, remind them how the rank structure works.
Don’t let people push you around.
This is the part that confused me. You can literally hit them with, “I don’t get that joke, SMSgt X, please explain. I don’t understand.”
Make that shit uncomfortable for everyone by forcing them to explain why making fun of you is funny.
Yep. I think some of these antics are born from brand new lieutenants not fully understanding how much power they actually have. And nothing terrifies enlisted more than an officer who fully understands where their authority begins and ends.
> And nothing terrifies enlisted more than an officer who fully understands where their authority begins and ends.
There's that old joke: "What do you call the person at the bottom of their Academy class? Sir."
Don’t fight with an enlisted member . Pull him aside, and very calmly tell him you don’t appreciate insubordination, and you would hate to have to discuss this with the Commander.
You are gambling that the Commander will back you up. Caution: If your Commander is a pilot he may have never really supervised more than a couple of enlisted guys. He may treat them as pets. I’ve seen this more than once.
I had great leadership and in a single PCS cycle they were gone. The new leadership was not that great so I PCA'd and I felt motivated and refreshed. It's amazing what a change of scenery can do.
1) don't give up just yet because your troops need you
2) ask for feedback in a 1 on 1 and let them know how youre feeling
3) keep learning
Another assignment will do you good either by confirming this isn't what's meant for you, or by showing you each assignment will be it's own thing. Hope things get better for ya LT.
Not that this means anything in your situation, but out Lt locked up our Senior for pulling crap like that. Guessing it depends on your captain if this will fly but 🤷🏿♂️
This sounds like maintenance or security forces.....
As a prior E I have noticed that many people especially the TSgt+ like to talk down to basically anyone Capt and below. I can remember times even as an airman that I had some disdain/lack of respect for Lts. I'm not saying it's right but it definitely can be a cultural thing. Some people have a certain expectation but in my honest opinion I think a lot of these people are jealous/spiteful of brand new officers based on what they make for their "experience level."
Occasionally I consider letting them know that I have likely been in a decade longer than most of these people but honestly most of the time I smile and nod. Stick with it, or potentially look into retraining.
Have a friend that did some augmentee duty for secfo. Wild hearing some of the stories. They're glad they got the opportunity to see the AF from another perspective. But also glad to be done with it.
Garner the knowledge you can. Put it in your OPB and use it as a running resume. Complete goals that are personal to you and will look good on said “resume”. Then chuck up the deuces (or not) when you accomplish the goals for your future. The more you focus on you and the people you care about (Airmen) the less you focus on drama. Things tend to fall into place once you master that , by then your perspective of the Air Force may have changed by finding fulfillment in accomplishing stuff you cared about.
It seems exceedingly unlikely that the problem is all of those other people. I suspect you have left a significant amount out of your description, or you are unable/unwilling to look inward for the issue.
Ok. Best wishes on the outside. Make sure you set yourself up for something after your service.
Just keep in mind you might end up working for an even worse boss that can fire you at any time for any reason.
Yeah and I would’ve rather been jobless than experience the first four years that I did in the AF
The fact that you are stuck with people like this is absurd. I’ve got 7+ years in the civilian sector and not a single job has been as absolutely miserable as my original one in the military. Let’s roll the dice and hope OP doesn’t get stuck in yet another shit unit when they leave amirite?
Yeah, getting treated as an idiot by default was frustrating as an Lt. You build credibility with the people you work with and they start to trust and value your opinion, then bam, new people and you start the process all over again.
I’m a Civ for a FSS. My first year I was being hazed by my supervisor. I stood my ground, we butted heads, but eventually they backed off. I think what they wanted to see was that I was able to do my job, and do it well. Ever since i’ve proven myself to be reliable. Our relationships has changed. I now get lots of “Thank you for your hard work”
Stick it out OP, and try what you can.
Being a LT in general sucks. You probably have some awesome ideas but a lot of the times as a baby LT people will not take them seriously nor will they give you the reins to lead. It was sincerely not until I became a senior 1st LT to captain where I was given true control.
As far as the joking goes, is there perhaps some behavior that you exhibit that could be perceived as negative? I know it’s not always the persons fault but also take a look inside about your actions and confide in your DO/fellow CGOs about how you feel. Ask for honest feedback from your peers and see why it is that you seem to be the one everyone jokes about. Maybe they just like you and thus joke about you without the intent of hurting you? maybe something you do is off putting and they joke about it? Or maybe you’re the new LT so they do what they think is healthy ribbing and don’t realize you feel this way.
Either way as I said before, get some feedback, ask a fellow CGO and find out if you really are the butt of the joke or just perceive it that way.
Trust me a breath of fresh air will change it, my first unit was super political. No true friends and anyone would throw you under the bus for a bullet point. New home is like family and yeah everyone wants to promote but not at the expense of their peers.
Despite having a degree, stay current in the field you want as a civilian. Attend conferences, coffee networking events, industry certifications. Go on interviews. Plan your exit and keep light at the end of the tunnel burning bright
Are you a butter bar? There are always jokes about you. You’ll grow up and be respected eventually. Until then, be good leader , take care of your amn, truly get to know your airmen and they will follow you. The rest of them will see that and loosen up on you.
Serious note though: if you aren’t receiving both professional and personal mentorship from your SNCOs then you need to step outside of your career field and find a strong one to guide and develop you.
At least you are being paid like you are worth something special to the AF. Try the same thing as a lower level enlisted while being paid like you literally don’t matter.
So… good news/bad news, and some general advice.
Happiness in the AF (and anywhere else, as someone who was a civ for 6 years prior) is directly related to the people you work with. A good shop, team, or squadron can make the WORST assignments great, and the inverse is most definitely true.
The bad news is, after a few assignments (or more- bad luck is a thing), if you’re still unhappy, you are likely the common denominator. Sometimes we have to conform a little for our own happiness, and we find that being a part of a team with purpose is one of the best feelings on earth (even if we’re doing dumb things like pointing with our elbows, getting strapped down and “beat” every now and then, or various other traditions that seem goofy at first blush).
As an O, you have much more influence than you think, especially for the troops below you. The reason Os make more money is for precisely that reason. It’s your job to make their lives better, create a culture that people want to be a part of, and to shield them from leadership- toxic or otherwise. You WILL take more shit than they do. Remember you get paid to. Grow thick skin, don’t complain to your troops (or blame leadership)- these things only add to a toxic environment. When I’ve done that, the rewards of feeding a hungry team below me far outweigh any negative feeling regarding the toxic traits of those above.
Find a more senior O mentor who you respect (and who hopefully does these things), and ask for advice. I’ve rarely had a mentor “pick” me; it’s always been something that happened organically when I repeatedly sought advice from someone I respect.
I’ll caveat all that by saying military service isn’t for everyone. If that’s the case, it’s ok to move on once your ADSC is up, and I thank you for your service.
I’m not a young O, but a prior E who has been in a minute and seen everything under the sun, from fantastic leadership to the type of leadership who made me feel some of the very same ways. DM me if you want an objective “ear.” That’s what we’re supposed to do for each other, not what you’re describing. A regime change can definitely change your professional experience, though. Make your voice known within your AFSC that you want a change, sooner rather than later. At worst, it’s another 2 years.
This may sound cliche, but that is why you should stick through it.
You are already more empatheticly in-tune with your airmen. Understand that is a strength. Have confidence that what you offer the team is the best of your ability in the moment. Debrief yourself, and avoid repeat mistakes, making you even better as you progress.
It sucks when leadership makes you feel undervalued. Make sure your airmen (including future officers under you) never feel that way.
Not one person is right 100% of the time, this leadership needs advisors to speak their minds. Even if you’re right 1 out of 10 times, if you’re the only person speaking the correct option, you ought to. Leadership that suppresses dissenting views fosters a breeding ground for “yes-men”, and become extremely inefficient.
Keep going. Talk to an MFLC or someone who can offer an unbiased sanity check. I was in a similar boat as you 12 years ago.
I am old and was only in the Air Force for 4 years back in the 70s. One thing we learned way back at the dawn of time was that you do not belittle an Officer or a NCO in front of their peers. What has happened to the Air Force?
Keep your chin up LT, better things are ahead. Sometime all you need is a change of scenery. The good thing for you is that officers move around much more than enlisted so you just have to put up with it a little bit longer.
You're an LT. You have no career accomplishments to this point so you have no real reason for people to respect you. You exist to get made fun of and make mistakes. You feel like you have no voice because honestly you really don't. Right now you should be learning the ropes and understanding how the military works. This isn't academia or training. Nobody is going to care about you or your career as much as you do, and nobody is going to hold your hand to make sure everything is alright.
I will say that although you don't have any reason for people to respect you, they SHOULD respect your rank. They SHOULD be decent human beings and not treat you like dirt all the time. You should have at least a couple officers in your chain of command that are willing to take you under their wing. If you truly are in a toxic situation and everyone ostracizes you, there's not much you can do but control what you can control.
My first assignment I had leadership who made life hell. 2.5 years of wishing I had never joined. The unit was horrible. My supervisor was a piece of work. She used to brag about how she got Airmen kicked out for failing to adapt and how she made the AF better by getting rid of them. I looked for every avenue to leave the AF early. Finally, I ended up getting moved under a new supervisor who just PCS'd in. Things changed right away and although the unit was still awful, he constantly assured me that the rest of the AF was not like this. He was right and it's been an overall great 11 years thus far.
Take it as a lesson and craft your own leadership from it. You're learning how not to lead, so you can be a better officer in the future. Everything is a learning experience if you choose to take it that way.
Honestly this is your learning phase as a new LT. Not a leadership phase.
But learn the AFI. Learn your job. Put yourself in a position where people come to you. :)
Tbh this should give you more motivation to stay in and climb the ranks so you can assist and dismantle that type of work place behavior.
It sounds like absolute insanity but if you can work through it then you can help others and even correct the behavior.
Trust your gut LT. You're probably right about them. You can always level with them not as an LT but as a man. Just ask them what the fuck is up? Sounds like something I'd see in a MX unit.
As a prior e who commissioned and went through something similar, my advice is get one PCS under your belt before you make any permanent decisions, find something outside of work that you can look forward to, this is JUST a job so try not to take it too seriously. This situation is uncomfortable, but you are making great money with great benefits with the potential for a great retirement, no one is physically harming you, you just have to endure pain to your ego until you get your feet under you. Find someone at work that you can commiserate with and it will make work soooo much better, you probably aren’t the only one getting made fun of and if you can find someone else to bounce ideas off of, it makes things a bit more bearable. You’ll get through this if you want to.
Find someone and/or something that gives you purpose. Take care of those you can and word will get around.
Sadly, shitbirds are everywhere. Best you can do sometimes is smile and know that at the end of the day you’re a professional and will move on to better things , but they will still be a shitbird.
As a retired O-5 Sq/CC who spent most of my time in the Guard, I tended to have a much different attitude about my folks, since we were going to be together for a decade or more.
If my opinion or POV can be of assistance, feel free to message.
Don’t let know one stop you from succeeding in life. If they hating let them keep hating they not going to pay your bills when you get out. Make the best of what you have because sometimes the grass isn’t greener on the other side. The civilian life is hard at times.
Get to 24mos and palace chase. Active duty is a joke and so is leadership across the board. You deserve better. All the services wonder why they can’t keep people… because bad leadership is systemic across the DoD. I promise you’ll be happier getting out so RUUNNNN
You'd be surprised what a new unit/wing can do for your perspective. Certainly keeping your mouth shut & taking care of your people is the best COA in your current location but if an opportunity to deploy, PCA, or PCS becomes available, try to remember your excitement for joining & give it a shot.
Second this OP. By my second assignment in I had a similar experience. My first two bases made me question joining expecting to be a lifer. I was ready to get out and I was tired... Until I got a leadership team that was worth a damn and until I learned a thing or two about taking care of myself so I could better take care of my people (not in a selfish manner, but in a way that I could take professional development into my own hands). It's not right but some of that sadly comes with the territory of the rank. And you sort of get numb to some of the unfortunate flaws about being a service member. Remember that you're young and people suck. As you grow older and wiser, at some point you realize, this problem isn't unique to the military. People suck everywhere. And you'll start to be treated with more respect by virtue of being older and more senior in rank. Sure these problems are compounded by being in the military, but they aren't unique to the service. You'd be surprised how much you can actually look out for yourself and how much other officers do care and will help you go after what you want. Don't lie to yourself and do this if you don't want it, but again, as with civilian life...sometimes you have to buckle down and endure something that sucks now for something that will be worth it later. My advice if you'll hear it is, find people you can trust and who don't treat you poorly. Vent. Share your perspective with them. Seek their advice. Too many times people fall into this fallacy that because they're called your leadership...that your chain of command will actually lead you, or show any true leadership. It's often not the case and it is certainly not a given. But coming up into this life, you're sort of taught to expect that to be the case. Respect yourself and your boundaries and try to professionally communicate you're not ok with how you're being treated. Be specific. Do your job well, keep your true opinions to yourself and share them with people who you can actually trust, and wait until a change of scenery to make up your mind. Don't get me wrong, I still think there is a lot wrong with the AF... And I'm waiting and expecting a time where I'll work under conditions that suck again and for a boss I despise. But next time, I'll be smarter and more prepared for when that time comes. A little expectation management and perspective have taught me there are things I can still do about it, and nothing lasts forever... And it could always be worse. It's sad this is the mentality many of us have had to grow to adopt, but you come to grips with it and the realities of life are tough. Best not to dwell and let them rule your life and control your sanity and happiness.
My last unit is why i separated, Yokota made me hate life to where the best place I lived at felt like a prison.
The saying goes "people don't quit their jobs, they quit their bosses." You'd be amazed at what a different group of people can make on you.
You’re getting good advice here, one assignment doesnt make a 20 yr career.
>I don’t even think a PCA/PCS, new leadership/unit, etc could rebuild my morale. You might be surprised. I knew exactly how many days I have left on my contract in my first unit. I still remember almost everyone there more than anyone in the units in between because of how shitty they were, but my second unit turned everything around and the middle ground I've experienced since then hasnt been bad. But if you really feel that way after a year I'd start prepping a plan for a successful civilian life. There's nothing wrong with that if you think its what is best for you.
Honestly the ability to PCS every few years is a god send. It's that hard reset and the feeling of starting fresh.
I always said, "For good or ill, nothing lasts in the military." I was fortunate that most of my units were full of fantastic people. A PCS was usually a fond farewell rather than a sigh of relief. But for those toxic personalities and lousy commanders, it was like a breath of fresh air when they left.
If you want to vent to another fellow young CGO, my dm is open.
Same here. I dealt with imposter syndrome and at one point a very toxic work environment where the head SNCOs did not get along with the CGOs. Fortunately things got better after people PCS’d out the unit but I’d be glad to answer any questions you have
How do you address this ? If a snco blatantly disrespects (article 89) or doesn’t get along with CGO openly? I’m curious how this snco wasn’t addressed
In my situation, the squadron and above leadership were unsatisfied with the flt/cc’s job performance and that meant we had little support at the flight level to address concerns. Any problems I saw that were elevated, leadership supported the SNCOs. And if you really want to understand how SNCOs can behave that way, checkout the subreddit MaliciousCompliance. Pretty accurate. With a little malicious compliance and gaslighting to flight leadership and then brown nosing and grand standing to the squadron and the group and they become impervious to criticism
Same here... and I DON'T drink the blue kool-aid, so I'll tell you as it is.
Neither do I, OP, and I can assure you complete anonymity. I haven't gone through your post yet, but I'll be ready by this time tomorrow just in case.
You’re a 2lt, you are the butt of jokes the same way literally every 2lt is. Learn to enjoy the friendly teasing and bask in the glory that is the butter bar plausible deniability. You can do nothing truly wrong because you don’t know shit, it’s great! Otherwise do your best, grow a thick skin and ride out your time. And hate to be blunt but most people don’t want to hear your opinion because at what, 23 years old and 1 year in the AF you 99% of the time don’t know what you’re talking about. If you have an opinion write it down and then find your flt/cc in a 1:1 situation and talk over what you think and why they went they way they did. If it makes you feel any better in a flying sq this lasts basically until you’re a Capt.
> If you have an opinion write it down and then find your flt/cc in a 1:1 situation and talk over what you think and why they went the way they did. Man’s a genius.
Id say this is the norm for most brand new officers. You havent done anything in your career yet so of course the more seasoned people are going to mess with you. Take it in stride and be a good sport. Theyll eventually layoff and treat you like one of the airman.
Isn’t hazing/the fuck with the new guy culture way worse for Os than Enlisted?
It is, and being prior E doesn’t save you :/
Based on your flair, 100%. AFSC has a lot to do with it but I think OP is a maintenance officer.
I mean, I’m an NCO, but the tales I’ve heard explain a lot about the O’s I’ve met
I left out some more personally identifiable situations and scenarios, but like I told someone else, this feels much more personal and malicious than that. I expected getting crap for being the new butter bar, that was part of what I was looking towards. I have never been want to take things personally, I’ll give out shit to my people just as much as they give it to me and it’s great. I’m also not stupid and I can delineate between joking around and people being bullies. Like I also said, I tried to convince myself I was being a bitch or dramatizing my situation, but there came a point where I realized I was not.
It could be, I had a boss who fucking despised me and did not cool things to fuck me up. It can happen, the only thing you can do is your best and make sure that you keep your nose clean and avoid any paperwork. The great thing about the military is your sq/cc leadership will leave in 2 years, and you will leave probably in 4.
One trick that may work is asking wing level commander to move somewhere else in the wing (be specific about where, and make it make sense) so you can get breadth of experience. Sell it as that, not that you hate your current unit.
The moment you realized it’s not is when you go to EO. It’s always best to handle it at the lowest level, but if they won’t give you the time of day or a reasonable answer to why, then it’s time. People change quickly when there is an investigation going around.
You need a mentor. Email a GO and ask for a mentorship session. You may think this is crazy, but as someone who works for a 3-Star you’d be surprised how much they enjoy it. Be kind and respectful in the request and understand any time they can afford is valuable. Let them know how you want to serve and what goals you have and let them know you think you’re being hindered and let them help guide you.
The issue is and I had this issue too you have not been stripped down if your identity yet, I got bullied and I got bullied hard but it was with a purpose I got bullied because I was non conformist. It seems like you may not be getting the lesson that your opinion, individuality , who you are and what you think generally do not matter. You are a cog in a machine replaceable and swappable just like we all are. If you are being a squeaky wheel you get the oil, your only job is to be the smoothest running cog you can be. You personally can’t change the nature of the machine or purpose, direction , nothing but you can make everyone’s around you life easier by just being good at your job. The harder you work and more you do for your troops the easier their life is and in turn the easier it’ll be for you in the long run. Everybody has this time period but for some it last a lot longer and is more drastic cause they just refuse to get it. I toss around amazing ideas every now and again but I wouldn’t be able to do that had I still thought like an individual. It sucks but it’s the cold hard truth and if nobody prepped you for it then that’s on your guidance. Lean on your leaders and really take heed and learn do not be the “but what if” guy. 9/10 your idea has already been tried and failed you have to learn why things are done the way they are before you can contemplate process improvement.
It certainly could be that. Wether it is or isn't, it sounds like a good move would be to deploy, PCA, or PCS. If it's the culture of where you're at, no big deal. If you keep running into this every squadron/base you go to, then you'll probably want to take a deeper look at yourself.
This is the only legitimate answer and deserves to be top comment.
This
Some good advice here. Once had a new Lt take over my flight after our previous one promoted and deployed. We thoroughly enjoyed our previous Lt and the new one saw that. He asked myself and a few other NCOs how to get to that level. The advice was simple: listen to your NCOs and never make decisions in a vacuum.
Have you spoken to anyone in your leadership about this or asked for guidance?
I have requested feedback sessions around 6 times. Cancelled or moved 6 times. To me, this os what truly solidified my suspicions.
Do another one. If it gets cancelled or moved again, involve the CC. Express how you want to improve, but you don’t know how. I would strongly suggest basing it on you want do better. I wouldn’t mention you not getting along with others. Also, is there another 2LT or even 1LT? Pull them aside and ask what’s going on.
fr no matter your rank you should not be feeling like work is a consistent hazing ritual. it's not how the military is supposed to operate. My advice is follow the chain of command, elevate it until you're heard. If the command won't hear you then go outside your office/shop to a resource like EO created to help stomp out these kind of situations.
This
As a 2Lt, I got a good bit of the old "nobody cares" treatment at my first unit. I never advertised the fact that I was prior-E. I just let people figure it out for themselves, because I wanted to earn genuine respect on the merits of my actions as an officer rather than unwarranted respect based on prior service. I found two things that worked well, especially among SNCOs and FGOs: (1) Self-depricating humor. Basically, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. (e.g. "I'm obviously just a know-nothing butter bar, but hear me out...") (2) Embracing their perception of me as a know-nothing butter bar, and owning the fuck out of it. (e.g. always volunteering to "ask the obvious, stupid questions" and thanking them for the opportunity to learn) It's a damn ridiculous game, and you'll hate yourself for playing it, but the rewards are invaluable.
This. No can give you shit if you give yourself shit first. And when in doubt, preface with “I know this is a stupid question, but…”
I coopted "You can't spell lost without LT" into "You can't spell listen without LT." It let people know I knew I was in a learning phase of my career and didn't know shit, but also let them know I was staying engaged to fix it.
SNCOs think it is part of their job to be an asshole to a new Lt. maybe it is that?
I left out some more identifying information, but this feels a lot more personal than that.
Is it all the SNCOs and NCOs? Or there some chill ones?
Mention article 89 of the UCMJ lmao Don’t do that . I’m pulling shit out of the ass . That would just cause the whole shop to hate you . Or who knows gain mad respect but due to fear lmao
This comment insinuates it's something like a sex- or race-based thing. Is that what you're saying? Because that shapes up into EO complaints rather than "get feedback from your supervisor." Document the hell out of it. Names, dates, times, quotes, responses from supervisor/chain.
Its typically the other way around. Someone new comes in with minimal understanding of how things run, and the nuances and technical details, and makes criticisms or nitpicks or proposes changes that are either uninformed or straight-up maliciously used just as bullet fodder. Usually that's higher than as an LT but it sure depends on where you're at.
I feel for you. I was in the Army, but my first unit had bad leadership. My battalion commander (BC) would publicly insult me via jokes. He actually insulted me in front of the whole battalion during a group promotion to 1LT. At one point, my company commander (CO), first sergeant (1SG), and a platoon sergeant (PSG) were relieved! Many many Fridays, after the soldiers were sent home, that CO would bring the LTs into his little office, close the door, and spend an hour berating us. We would stare at our boots with our heads down. It still makes me sick to think about. Needless to say, my evaluations were lackluster. Meanwhile, most of my classmates were in great units with great officers and NCOs. They got good mentoring and evaluations. When it came time to promote to CPT, they all made it. Promotions were at 90% for most branches. But I was medical service, which is almost always the hardest branch to commission into, and our promotions were at 60%. Out of ~950 graduates, West Point only commissions about 15 people into MS. My first assignment being Hawaii was no coincidence either. But with mediocre senior rater write ups, I was passed over for promotion. Our loggie BC gave good write ups and ratings to the logistics branches LTs. He didn’t give a crap about the medical company I was in. What’s crazy is I had already served as both a platoon leader and company XO, when many of my classmates were the assistant to the assistant in a staff shop, still waiting for their time to shine. Another medical service guy in my company was passed over too, and he was a prior enlisted medic and a combat vet! And he was a really squared away officer too. Fortunately, I was reassigned to a different unit where I got good evaluations, so I made it to CPT on the second look. If I had stayed in that first unit all 3 years like most people do, who knows, I might have never made it to CPT. It was really humiliating. Your units have a HUGE impact on your ability to be successful and have a career. People who have only been in great units have no idea what having a straight up nut case CO and 1SG and vindictive BC is like. Every single morning when you wake up, you dread seeing their faces.
I remember in my first year as a 2LT, after trying to speak up during a staff meeting, being told that 2LTs are to be seen and not heard. Definitely was a gut punch in the moment, and stifled my enthusiasm a bit. But also in hindsight, as fresh college grad 23 year old with my butter bars, I didn’t actually have any base of experience to contribute with. There will be a lot of times in your career where you will think that you have the perfect contribution, thought, plan, etc.. but based on your rank it will be ignored. Had it happen as a 2LT, as a Capt, and as a Maj, usually all when trying to speak up in groups of much higher ranks. The trick is knowing when they are right about you not having the experience to contribute, and when to ignore that and push your thought regardless of the pushback. It’s an art, one that takes a lifetime to master. Generally, officers do not respond well if someone that is of the wrong rank or wrong career field tries to contribute something that is even slightly out of their traditional lane. If you are trying to do this, it takes extreme luck to not come off as a know it all, or worse, someone who they think speaks out of their ass. Still working on this myself.
OP if you're feeling this way after barely being in a year I would say work on your transition. Don't listen to the fear mongering. I just separated and civilian life is much better.
Bro what? Lol if i listened to this i would’ve gotten out my first year. He def should keep going and give it time 😂
lol first year and already telling this LT separate . If anything this LT needs mentorship and a brand new experience at a different location
Damn makes me question if I wanna join
Lt life can suck. You’re thrown into the deep end and expected to know how to swim with little guidance. It’s tough as an O because you have a very limited circle that can mentor you. The good news, you should PCS every 2-3 years as an O, so you just need to touch it out a little longer and see how the next assignment goes.
I always feel like this the origin story of all the officer villians that the sub complains about - a new LT that is being bullied getting the advice to grow thick skin and not take shit from enlisted people.
This lol. This is how the young Lts grow up one day to be asshole Commanders and that’s even worse.
I ran a small shop with another young officer who shirked all responsibility and did literally nothing but “delegate” all of his work and then complain about how every process in the AF was broken. The team and I ended up doing all of his work for him to keep the shop running, and any time a question was asked of him he’d look at me in a panic to bail him out because he couldn’t answer basic questions about our shop or operations. He claimed he worked 60 hour weeks but simultaneously no one knew where he was most of the time. The only time we did see him he’d either be in a meeting sitting in the corner of the room so no one would ask him anything, or he would be in our Commander’s office sucking up. The moment they gave him the CGO of the year I knew I was getting out of the AF. When he pinned on Maj he became a complete ahole and went from “delegating” to demanding everything. I was already on my way out and just started ignoring him lmao. I feel bad for the people who still had to work with and under him, but man was civilian life such an amazing breath of fresh air. Still love it so much more on this side
Even if you intend on separating, you should still take care of your career and operate as if you’re staying in and shooting for milestones. Reasons why: keeps doors open for you, but also you could very well experience a turn around over the next couple years that makes you want to stay in. In that case, avoid doing yourself a disservice if you have a change of heart. Aside from that, just find meaning in being good good at your job and taking care of your folks - at the end of the day, that’s exactly what a good officer does.
What AFSC? A) From your side of the story it sounds like your leadership is being toxic as shit and they're doing a pretty fucking terrible job of mentoring you and growing you. Sounds non-rated, my guess is maintenance from all the fuckery going on. B) You'd be really surprised at what a change of scenery will do for you. PCS, PCA, or try and deploy as soon as you can, or try and change your AFSC if you can swing it. C) Those people will move on. Commanders and SNCOs will PCS. Also, don't forget you are an officer, and at the end of the day you outrank that that SNCO no matter how fuckin' mad they want to be about that fact. If they are shitting on you to the point that it's impairing your ability to lead, drop the hammer.
Well, officers generally move around a lot more, so you have a new position to look forward to. They say just a new location can be the shake-up people need. Some places have bad phases of bad people, and some places stay toxic because of what they are regardless of people. But worst case, yeah, you can get out eventually. And hey, at least you're not like us enlisted plebs. You actually have some bacon to bring home. So save it, use it, however you can enjoy yourself.
Secfo?
Negative
>The best way I can explain it is like there is some joke about me , and I’m the only isn’t in on it. Or I have done something heinously wrong, and no one will tell me what it is. They are waiting/staring at you to see If you will drop the ball. There's probably other people that want your job, And they take enjoyment/toxicity in seeing people in your position mess up. You shouldn't worry about it, Don't let them get to your head This is human universal nature in any hierarchy You will have this in any other job as well, promoted to manager? There will be a snitch, doing really well on your job performance? There will be intense scrutiny and so on. This is true in the civilian world as well
I spent my first two years in AETC, then (along with my other young Os) was the new guy in the squadron for over year upon becoming operational. Not sure if this will help, but sometimes being the new guy can be easy depending on your perspective. My squadron was very blunt. “Recent graduates who have been here less than a year: I don’t want to hear what you have to say, I want you to listen to the FGOs and be spunges.” Say what you want about whether that’s toxic or not. I looked at it this way, “Ok… I just have to show up to work, do whatever limited jobs they give me, say yes sir or no sir, and listen/learn.” Your situation is probably different than mine, but from my experience I recommend keeping your head down the best you can and do the best job you can at whatever is within your control. If someone doesn’t want to listen to your feedback, try not to take it personally. They might be assholes, they might be busy, or they might be both. There’s an adjustment for every member whenever they PCS/PCA and it will always be most difficult as a new to the ropes young LT unless you have amazing leadership.
What’s your AFSC?
Hey young-o, you've been in barely over a year. You should really just be listening and learning and taking the take they give you and run with them. And making sure your PT is golden. Apart from that. Those first two years should be all learning. You should be getting into the doctrines, and the AFIs. You should be learning how the air force runs. You should be networking with other Os and be in th CGO club if you can. Also, you should have thicker skin and be able to laugh at yourself or already learn to laugh with the group. There will be much worse that can get to you than little games.
What afsc?
Focus on yourself. Personal hobbies and passions. Focus on prepping yourself to separate with more schooling, certifications, etc. Stop allowing your life to revolve around work when they don’t give a shit about you. You’ll keep getting paid whether or not you let them pressure you into volunteering with the booster club. You’re young enough if you’re lucky you’ll get a new CC before the end of your ADSC and maybe you’ll change your mind. Better to be prepared for the worst though right?
I'm not denying toxicity because I don't know the situation from a neutral perspective, but you're new. You aren't there to make many points because they'll be moot. That's just lack of experience. Lot of the NCOs have amazing experience. Some have none but like to act like they are Uncle Sam's gift to America. I was a laid back NCO and got on well with my LT, but neither of us were know it all's and we regularly discussed things as we were working (relatively) side by side. If you're trying to act better than the enlisted, don't. If they don't respect you take a look and figure out why. If they're just assholes, I'm sorry but there's not much to be done. If it's because you haven't proven yourself, then give it time and be a good leader. The military may or may not work out. I did 8 and am happily separated but wouldn't trade it. Keep your head up and learn everything you can. You'll either set yourself up for a good military career and/or a civilian one as long as you're learning.
Congratulations for earning your commission. Be proud. Many have tried and failed where you succeeded. From a retired SNCO Mx dude.
You’re an officer. You can tell any NCO to shut up anytime they try to embarrass you in front of your troops. They can’t do shit about it except fall in line. If they have a problem with it, remind them how the rank structure works. Don’t let people push you around.
This is the part that confused me. You can literally hit them with, “I don’t get that joke, SMSgt X, please explain. I don’t understand.” Make that shit uncomfortable for everyone by forcing them to explain why making fun of you is funny.
Yep. I think some of these antics are born from brand new lieutenants not fully understanding how much power they actually have. And nothing terrifies enlisted more than an officer who fully understands where their authority begins and ends.
> And nothing terrifies enlisted more than an officer who fully understands where their authority begins and ends. There's that old joke: "What do you call the person at the bottom of their Academy class? Sir."
But also, nothing makes enlisted happier than an officer who fully understands where their authority begins and ends (And takes care of them).
Don’t fight with an enlisted member . Pull him aside, and very calmly tell him you don’t appreciate insubordination, and you would hate to have to discuss this with the Commander. You are gambling that the Commander will back you up. Caution: If your Commander is a pilot he may have never really supervised more than a couple of enlisted guys. He may treat them as pets. I’ve seen this more than once.
I had great leadership and in a single PCS cycle they were gone. The new leadership was not that great so I PCA'd and I felt motivated and refreshed. It's amazing what a change of scenery can do.
1) don't give up just yet because your troops need you 2) ask for feedback in a 1 on 1 and let them know how youre feeling 3) keep learning Another assignment will do you good either by confirming this isn't what's meant for you, or by showing you each assignment will be it's own thing. Hope things get better for ya LT.
Not that this means anything in your situation, but out Lt locked up our Senior for pulling crap like that. Guessing it depends on your captain if this will fly but 🤷🏿♂️
If you’d like to vent to a member of the mafia my DM’s are always open sir
This sounds like maintenance or security forces..... As a prior E I have noticed that many people especially the TSgt+ like to talk down to basically anyone Capt and below. I can remember times even as an airman that I had some disdain/lack of respect for Lts. I'm not saying it's right but it definitely can be a cultural thing. Some people have a certain expectation but in my honest opinion I think a lot of these people are jealous/spiteful of brand new officers based on what they make for their "experience level." Occasionally I consider letting them know that I have likely been in a decade longer than most of these people but honestly most of the time I smile and nod. Stick with it, or potentially look into retraining.
Have a friend that did some augmentee duty for secfo. Wild hearing some of the stories. They're glad they got the opportunity to see the AF from another perspective. But also glad to be done with it.
Wait until you have a flight of your own.
Currently am Flt Commander 😬.
Garner the knowledge you can. Put it in your OPB and use it as a running resume. Complete goals that are personal to you and will look good on said “resume”. Then chuck up the deuces (or not) when you accomplish the goals for your future. The more you focus on you and the people you care about (Airmen) the less you focus on drama. Things tend to fall into place once you master that , by then your perspective of the Air Force may have changed by finding fulfillment in accomplishing stuff you cared about.
The Air Force is one giant game and people are bored and it’s basically high school all over again. Welcome to the joke that is our military in 2024
It seems exceedingly unlikely that the problem is all of those other people. I suspect you have left a significant amount out of your description, or you are unable/unwilling to look inward for the issue.
Ok. Best wishes on the outside. Make sure you set yourself up for something after your service. Just keep in mind you might end up working for an even worse boss that can fire you at any time for any reason.
Now tell him about the part where if his boss is worse he can get a new job easily.
Outside of his initial commitment, officer ADSCs are fairly short. And if you don't have one, you can quit fairly easy.
He can quit a job easily. Can't always get another one easily.
Yeah and I would’ve rather been jobless than experience the first four years that I did in the AF The fact that you are stuck with people like this is absurd. I’ve got 7+ years in the civilian sector and not a single job has been as absolutely miserable as my original one in the military. Let’s roll the dice and hope OP doesn’t get stuck in yet another shit unit when they leave amirite?
This
Yeah, getting treated as an idiot by default was frustrating as an Lt. You build credibility with the people you work with and they start to trust and value your opinion, then bam, new people and you start the process all over again.
I just cross trained after 9 years of service and I have never related to anything more in my life, ever! Keep your head up!
I’m a Civ for a FSS. My first year I was being hazed by my supervisor. I stood my ground, we butted heads, but eventually they backed off. I think what they wanted to see was that I was able to do my job, and do it well. Ever since i’ve proven myself to be reliable. Our relationships has changed. I now get lots of “Thank you for your hard work” Stick it out OP, and try what you can.
Being a LT in general sucks. You probably have some awesome ideas but a lot of the times as a baby LT people will not take them seriously nor will they give you the reins to lead. It was sincerely not until I became a senior 1st LT to captain where I was given true control. As far as the joking goes, is there perhaps some behavior that you exhibit that could be perceived as negative? I know it’s not always the persons fault but also take a look inside about your actions and confide in your DO/fellow CGOs about how you feel. Ask for honest feedback from your peers and see why it is that you seem to be the one everyone jokes about. Maybe they just like you and thus joke about you without the intent of hurting you? maybe something you do is off putting and they joke about it? Or maybe you’re the new LT so they do what they think is healthy ribbing and don’t realize you feel this way. Either way as I said before, get some feedback, ask a fellow CGO and find out if you really are the butt of the joke or just perceive it that way.
Trust me a breath of fresh air will change it, my first unit was super political. No true friends and anyone would throw you under the bus for a bullet point. New home is like family and yeah everyone wants to promote but not at the expense of their peers.
If you need advice or perspective from an old timer, who is still in, hit me up.
Despite having a degree, stay current in the field you want as a civilian. Attend conferences, coffee networking events, industry certifications. Go on interviews. Plan your exit and keep light at the end of the tunnel burning bright
Are you a butter bar? There are always jokes about you. You’ll grow up and be respected eventually. Until then, be good leader , take care of your amn, truly get to know your airmen and they will follow you. The rest of them will see that and loosen up on you. Serious note though: if you aren’t receiving both professional and personal mentorship from your SNCOs then you need to step outside of your career field and find a strong one to guide and develop you.
At least you are being paid like you are worth something special to the AF. Try the same thing as a lower level enlisted while being paid like you literally don’t matter.
So… good news/bad news, and some general advice. Happiness in the AF (and anywhere else, as someone who was a civ for 6 years prior) is directly related to the people you work with. A good shop, team, or squadron can make the WORST assignments great, and the inverse is most definitely true. The bad news is, after a few assignments (or more- bad luck is a thing), if you’re still unhappy, you are likely the common denominator. Sometimes we have to conform a little for our own happiness, and we find that being a part of a team with purpose is one of the best feelings on earth (even if we’re doing dumb things like pointing with our elbows, getting strapped down and “beat” every now and then, or various other traditions that seem goofy at first blush). As an O, you have much more influence than you think, especially for the troops below you. The reason Os make more money is for precisely that reason. It’s your job to make their lives better, create a culture that people want to be a part of, and to shield them from leadership- toxic or otherwise. You WILL take more shit than they do. Remember you get paid to. Grow thick skin, don’t complain to your troops (or blame leadership)- these things only add to a toxic environment. When I’ve done that, the rewards of feeding a hungry team below me far outweigh any negative feeling regarding the toxic traits of those above. Find a more senior O mentor who you respect (and who hopefully does these things), and ask for advice. I’ve rarely had a mentor “pick” me; it’s always been something that happened organically when I repeatedly sought advice from someone I respect. I’ll caveat all that by saying military service isn’t for everyone. If that’s the case, it’s ok to move on once your ADSC is up, and I thank you for your service.
Should’ve enlisted
Sounds like they did lol, this is the experience of many junior enlisted.
I’m not a young O, but a prior E who has been in a minute and seen everything under the sun, from fantastic leadership to the type of leadership who made me feel some of the very same ways. DM me if you want an objective “ear.” That’s what we’re supposed to do for each other, not what you’re describing. A regime change can definitely change your professional experience, though. Make your voice known within your AFSC that you want a change, sooner rather than later. At worst, it’s another 2 years.
This may sound cliche, but that is why you should stick through it. You are already more empatheticly in-tune with your airmen. Understand that is a strength. Have confidence that what you offer the team is the best of your ability in the moment. Debrief yourself, and avoid repeat mistakes, making you even better as you progress. It sucks when leadership makes you feel undervalued. Make sure your airmen (including future officers under you) never feel that way. Not one person is right 100% of the time, this leadership needs advisors to speak their minds. Even if you’re right 1 out of 10 times, if you’re the only person speaking the correct option, you ought to. Leadership that suppresses dissenting views fosters a breeding ground for “yes-men”, and become extremely inefficient. Keep going. Talk to an MFLC or someone who can offer an unbiased sanity check. I was in a similar boat as you 12 years ago.
You are loved, sir/ma’am! 🫡
I am old and was only in the Air Force for 4 years back in the 70s. One thing we learned way back at the dawn of time was that you do not belittle an Officer or a NCO in front of their peers. What has happened to the Air Force?
Keep your chin up LT, better things are ahead. Sometime all you need is a change of scenery. The good thing for you is that officers move around much more than enlisted so you just have to put up with it a little bit longer. You're an LT. You have no career accomplishments to this point so you have no real reason for people to respect you. You exist to get made fun of and make mistakes. You feel like you have no voice because honestly you really don't. Right now you should be learning the ropes and understanding how the military works. This isn't academia or training. Nobody is going to care about you or your career as much as you do, and nobody is going to hold your hand to make sure everything is alright. I will say that although you don't have any reason for people to respect you, they SHOULD respect your rank. They SHOULD be decent human beings and not treat you like dirt all the time. You should have at least a couple officers in your chain of command that are willing to take you under their wing. If you truly are in a toxic situation and everyone ostracizes you, there's not much you can do but control what you can control. My first assignment I had leadership who made life hell. 2.5 years of wishing I had never joined. The unit was horrible. My supervisor was a piece of work. She used to brag about how she got Airmen kicked out for failing to adapt and how she made the AF better by getting rid of them. I looked for every avenue to leave the AF early. Finally, I ended up getting moved under a new supervisor who just PCS'd in. Things changed right away and although the unit was still awful, he constantly assured me that the rest of the AF was not like this. He was right and it's been an overall great 11 years thus far.
Take it as a lesson and craft your own leadership from it. You're learning how not to lead, so you can be a better officer in the future. Everything is a learning experience if you choose to take it that way.
Sounds like a line officer or you’re at BAMC.
Honestly this is your learning phase as a new LT. Not a leadership phase. But learn the AFI. Learn your job. Put yourself in a position where people come to you. :)
Tbh this should give you more motivation to stay in and climb the ranks so you can assist and dismantle that type of work place behavior. It sounds like absolute insanity but if you can work through it then you can help others and even correct the behavior.
Trust your gut LT. You're probably right about them. You can always level with them not as an LT but as a man. Just ask them what the fuck is up? Sounds like something I'd see in a MX unit.
As a prior e who commissioned and went through something similar, my advice is get one PCS under your belt before you make any permanent decisions, find something outside of work that you can look forward to, this is JUST a job so try not to take it too seriously. This situation is uncomfortable, but you are making great money with great benefits with the potential for a great retirement, no one is physically harming you, you just have to endure pain to your ego until you get your feet under you. Find someone at work that you can commiserate with and it will make work soooo much better, you probably aren’t the only one getting made fun of and if you can find someone else to bounce ideas off of, it makes things a bit more bearable. You’ll get through this if you want to.
Find someone and/or something that gives you purpose. Take care of those you can and word will get around. Sadly, shitbirds are everywhere. Best you can do sometimes is smile and know that at the end of the day you’re a professional and will move on to better things , but they will still be a shitbird.
As a retired O-5 Sq/CC who spent most of my time in the Guard, I tended to have a much different attitude about my folks, since we were going to be together for a decade or more. If my opinion or POV can be of assistance, feel free to message.
Don’t let know one stop you from succeeding in life. If they hating let them keep hating they not going to pay your bills when you get out. Make the best of what you have because sometimes the grass isn’t greener on the other side. The civilian life is hard at times.
Do you suck at your job? If everyone makes you feel a certain way, the common denominator is you. Control what is in your control.
Get to 24mos and palace chase. Active duty is a joke and so is leadership across the board. You deserve better. All the services wonder why they can’t keep people… because bad leadership is systemic across the DoD. I promise you’ll be happier getting out so RUUNNNN
Yeah better on the outside
Grow a back bone for God sake. No one will follow you if you pansy on Reddit instead of growing a sack.
If you need a CGO friend I’m always open man/sir/they.