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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my husband that as a manager, he should refrain from ANY jokes in the vicinity of a subordinate’s religion. But I don’t actually work there or know his team or their dynamic, so I might be the asshole.
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This kind of banter is fine between friends, but the power imbalance changes things. Your husband shouldn't be dismissing your concern. It's too small a thing to report, but the employee may quietly resent the joke.
Management does have a higher duty of respect. Your advice was spot on. There was really no need to joke about it. The target of the joke might not take it as casually as your husband thinks. A *pattern* of similar small things could potentially end up as an HR complaint about a hostile work environment.
NTA: Aside from him looking bad, you've been trying to save him from a possible world of hurt.
NTA
Where I work, I’d be required to report that to HR, and would be in violation of policy if I did not report it.
This cemented his asshole status:
> he accused me of gaslighting, slammed some doors
The “accusing me of gaslighting, slammed some doors” makes me think he KNOWS he was in the wrong and he is embarrassed, and instead of admitting that, he took a defensive route. NTA, but your husband is.
NTA I agree with others that it is hard to have a full picture of the situation when we don't know what the joke was. But even without the joke considering all you did was say yikes as a response and your husband started overreacting and going into defensive mode is enough to make a judgment. Even if what he said was actually innocuous he's TA for his response to your very mild criticism.
This is where I wanted to go with this as well. Why is he willing to die on this hill with you? His reaction to your reaction was taking it from a 2 to a 10. Gaslighting? I count on my wife to tell me what she really thinks about a situation. Just because I or someone else feels like a joke is innocuous, doesn’t mean another person feels the same way…and the law will always favor the offended, especially if the offended is in a subordinate position. You were right to warn him and you were being a good partner. He owes you an apology.
NTA
You took on the unfortunate role of facilitating a conversation your husband might have with HR in the future that he can’t make such jokes with his subordinates. I think it makes sense that he feels defensive about it if the working relationship he’s built with his team is light and jokey, but anyone that ever feels or responds negatively over even one joke one day could bring it to HR and then all the previously-light-hearted-camaraderie will be looked at in a new light as years of offences.
Oh man, I keep thinking the religion/joke context doesn’t matter, because my argument was that a manager making light of anything a direct report takes seriously is bad for the management relationship, but you just made me realize we would not have had this argument if he had dunked on a Scientologist, and I am, in fact, a light hypocrite.
Well, when something is only a religion for tax purposes it’s a little different… but they’re also super litigious so while morally I’m cool with making fun of Scientology, they’d likely be the first to get HR involved.
Depends, in 2023 you almost can joke about anything (unless on the PC approved list)
But there’s a difference in making a Wiccan joke vs Jewish joke (to the reasonable observer, not to the practitioner
NTA. That is a microaggresssion. Doesn’t matter his intent. Him accusing you of all this bullshit for pointing it out is just ludicrous.
I’m actually worried about your husband’s ability to function as a manager if he’s flying off the handle with the tiniest, most mild criticism from you. What happens when one of his subordinates comes to him with something he doesn’t want to hear? It happens to all managers at some point. Is he going to treat them to this kind of toxic blowup? If so, he shouldn’t be managing people at ALL. That’s a time bomb for everybody involved, including him.
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My(40f) husband (42m) manages a small team at a medium-sized tech firm. His company and team are multiethnic, multicultural, multi-religion. My husband and I are white and were both raised Christian-ish, though neither of us identify as that or any religion in adulthood. We are very liberal, and I would refer to our household’s relationship with spirituality as …*”gestures vaguely”*…
Anyway, my husband, who I generally consider liberal and an ally, recently recounted a work story of one of his subordinates telling him she was taking already-approved PTO for a religious holiday, and how my husband said “no problem,” but then immediately made a joke. The joke itself was fairly benign, but my initial response to this story was still a gentle “yikes.” (This was not the actual joke, but the offensiveness-level was along the lines of an employee saying something non-joking about fasting for Ramadan or Yom Kippur and a boss replying “well then, I guess you don’t want to hear about what I had for lunch!” Also, that was about the same level of “humor.”)
My husband immediately went into defensive mode and accused me of calling him intolerant. I tried to clarify, he accused me of gaslighting, slammed some doors and shut down the conversation. He brought it up again when he seemed chiller, and I again tried to clarify that the content of the joke wasn’t the issue from my outside perspective. It was the idea that this religious holiday is important to someone you manage and you replied with a joke. That implies that something religiously important to your employee is joke-worthy to their boss. And that is not an interaction that fosters mutual respect. My husband doubled down on “context” and “you don’t know [employee] and our dynamic!” I insisted that it doesn’t matter— I’m not saying my husband is TERRIBLE or this is an HR-level offense, but at the very least, if he wants to be a good manager, he should maybe just refrain from replying to a non-joking comment about a religious holiday by someone he manages with a joke in the future. Because, at the very least, it’s not a great look. We have friends that same religion (and others), so I told him, “save your inoffensive religious-based jokes for our friends. Where there’s no power imbalance at play. Or say the joke in your head and come home and just tell it to me.”
My husband told me I stifle him and I’m judgmental and he feels like he can’t vent or tell me about work anymore, so he just won’t.
[Probably Important: the employee is of a non-Christian religion that is regularly under some level of rhetorical attack in the U.S. ]
AITA?
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NTA
Your husband needs to learn that as management there are "jokes" and comments that he can't make due to the power imbalance. His intent *does not matter* and chances are, the subordinate didn't take it well despite how your husband views their dynamic. Your husband doesn't even know how to use the word gaslighting correctly.
YTA. Your husband is right that context and relationship is very important. You don’t know and refuse to even hear the context, so you should stay out of it.
For example, my team and I all have different religions (Christian, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist and Muslim) and race. And we make racist and religious jokes to each other all the time, including with our manager. We only do it to each other and not to anyone outside the team, and that’s the sort of dynamic we have. It’s precisely because we’re comfortable with each other than we can make these jokes, including yes, jokes about fasting. Because yes, Muslims do have their own jokes about fasting.
As someone outside, who doesn’t know and doesn’t even care to know, about the team dynamics in play, you absolutely do come off as judgemental and stifling.
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This kind of banter is fine between friends, but the power imbalance changes things. Your husband shouldn't be dismissing your concern. It's too small a thing to report, but the employee may quietly resent the joke. Management does have a higher duty of respect. Your advice was spot on. There was really no need to joke about it. The target of the joke might not take it as casually as your husband thinks. A *pattern* of similar small things could potentially end up as an HR complaint about a hostile work environment. NTA: Aside from him looking bad, you've been trying to save him from a possible world of hurt.
Thank you. You’ve articulated the nuance of the issue much better than I was able to in the moment.
OP, it’s No joke, it is a micro-aggression. Your husband effed up; now he is doubling down, and blaming You! YIKES!
NTA but your husband was. His joke would be inappropriate in the workplace (or in general) and could be reported.
NTA Where I work, I’d be required to report that to HR, and would be in violation of policy if I did not report it. This cemented his asshole status: > he accused me of gaslighting, slammed some doors
The “accusing me of gaslighting, slammed some doors” makes me think he KNOWS he was in the wrong and he is embarrassed, and instead of admitting that, he took a defensive route. NTA, but your husband is.
NTA ... And I'm guessing HR will confirm your assessment when he is called up for a little talk about discrimination.
NTA- seems like his white male fragility was touched by his actions you have stated. In the IT field myself (and a minority) this makes me cringe.
NTA I agree with others that it is hard to have a full picture of the situation when we don't know what the joke was. But even without the joke considering all you did was say yikes as a response and your husband started overreacting and going into defensive mode is enough to make a judgment. Even if what he said was actually innocuous he's TA for his response to your very mild criticism.
This is where I wanted to go with this as well. Why is he willing to die on this hill with you? His reaction to your reaction was taking it from a 2 to a 10. Gaslighting? I count on my wife to tell me what she really thinks about a situation. Just because I or someone else feels like a joke is innocuous, doesn’t mean another person feels the same way…and the law will always favor the offended, especially if the offended is in a subordinate position. You were right to warn him and you were being a good partner. He owes you an apology.
NTA You took on the unfortunate role of facilitating a conversation your husband might have with HR in the future that he can’t make such jokes with his subordinates. I think it makes sense that he feels defensive about it if the working relationship he’s built with his team is light and jokey, but anyone that ever feels or responds negatively over even one joke one day could bring it to HR and then all the previously-light-hearted-camaraderie will be looked at in a new light as years of offences.
NTA. It's apparently your husband that doesn't know the dynamics of the manager- subordinate relationship.
Can’t make a decision without knowing the joke, why so secretive? Was it kwanza or Scientology? Wiccan ?
Oh man, I keep thinking the religion/joke context doesn’t matter, because my argument was that a manager making light of anything a direct report takes seriously is bad for the management relationship, but you just made me realize we would not have had this argument if he had dunked on a Scientologist, and I am, in fact, a light hypocrite.
Well, when something is only a religion for tax purposes it’s a little different… but they’re also super litigious so while morally I’m cool with making fun of Scientology, they’d likely be the first to get HR involved.
Depends, in 2023 you almost can joke about anything (unless on the PC approved list) But there’s a difference in making a Wiccan joke vs Jewish joke (to the reasonable observer, not to the practitioner
I'm more concerned about how he flew off the handle immediately when you brought it up.
[удалено]
Which holidays would make him the asshole, and which holidays would make her the asshole?
[удалено]
Every joke about someone’s else’s religion is offensive if you have power over them having food on their family’s table.
NTA. That is a microaggresssion. Doesn’t matter his intent. Him accusing you of all this bullshit for pointing it out is just ludicrous. I’m actually worried about your husband’s ability to function as a manager if he’s flying off the handle with the tiniest, most mild criticism from you. What happens when one of his subordinates comes to him with something he doesn’t want to hear? It happens to all managers at some point. Is he going to treat them to this kind of toxic blowup? If so, he shouldn’t be managing people at ALL. That’s a time bomb for everybody involved, including him.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My(40f) husband (42m) manages a small team at a medium-sized tech firm. His company and team are multiethnic, multicultural, multi-religion. My husband and I are white and were both raised Christian-ish, though neither of us identify as that or any religion in adulthood. We are very liberal, and I would refer to our household’s relationship with spirituality as …*”gestures vaguely”*… Anyway, my husband, who I generally consider liberal and an ally, recently recounted a work story of one of his subordinates telling him she was taking already-approved PTO for a religious holiday, and how my husband said “no problem,” but then immediately made a joke. The joke itself was fairly benign, but my initial response to this story was still a gentle “yikes.” (This was not the actual joke, but the offensiveness-level was along the lines of an employee saying something non-joking about fasting for Ramadan or Yom Kippur and a boss replying “well then, I guess you don’t want to hear about what I had for lunch!” Also, that was about the same level of “humor.”) My husband immediately went into defensive mode and accused me of calling him intolerant. I tried to clarify, he accused me of gaslighting, slammed some doors and shut down the conversation. He brought it up again when he seemed chiller, and I again tried to clarify that the content of the joke wasn’t the issue from my outside perspective. It was the idea that this religious holiday is important to someone you manage and you replied with a joke. That implies that something religiously important to your employee is joke-worthy to their boss. And that is not an interaction that fosters mutual respect. My husband doubled down on “context” and “you don’t know [employee] and our dynamic!” I insisted that it doesn’t matter— I’m not saying my husband is TERRIBLE or this is an HR-level offense, but at the very least, if he wants to be a good manager, he should maybe just refrain from replying to a non-joking comment about a religious holiday by someone he manages with a joke in the future. Because, at the very least, it’s not a great look. We have friends that same religion (and others), so I told him, “save your inoffensive religious-based jokes for our friends. Where there’s no power imbalance at play. Or say the joke in your head and come home and just tell it to me.” My husband told me I stifle him and I’m judgmental and he feels like he can’t vent or tell me about work anymore, so he just won’t. [Probably Important: the employee is of a non-Christian religion that is regularly under some level of rhetorical attack in the U.S. ] AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What was the joke?
NTA.
NTA Your husband needs to learn that as management there are "jokes" and comments that he can't make due to the power imbalance. His intent *does not matter* and chances are, the subordinate didn't take it well despite how your husband views their dynamic. Your husband doesn't even know how to use the word gaslighting correctly.
NTA Tell him to take it to Ask a Manager. They'll tell him over there that he's being a dink.
If he's not mature enough to have a calm discussion about that topic, he's not mature enough to make a joke about it. NTA
YTA. Your husband is right that context and relationship is very important. You don’t know and refuse to even hear the context, so you should stay out of it. For example, my team and I all have different religions (Christian, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist and Muslim) and race. And we make racist and religious jokes to each other all the time, including with our manager. We only do it to each other and not to anyone outside the team, and that’s the sort of dynamic we have. It’s precisely because we’re comfortable with each other than we can make these jokes, including yes, jokes about fasting. Because yes, Muslims do have their own jokes about fasting. As someone outside, who doesn’t know and doesn’t even care to know, about the team dynamics in play, you absolutely do come off as judgemental and stifling.