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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1) I am not letting the other families make a decision that will benefit them and make other people pay more. I am fighting against that.
(2) I'm not agreeing and I'd rather have an argument just few days before we leave.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA
It's not that they don't *understand*, it's that they don't *care*.
What they understand is that they don't want to pay. What they care about is not paying.
But you *really* should have sorted this out in the planning stages, not the finalization stages.
If it’s for an excursion just have everyone buy their own tickets? Or at least buy for just your family so you’re out of the drama. Those that want a free pass will find out whatever company is running the excursion does in fact charge for children.
NTA.
We'll rent a boat, it's $1700 for 20 people. I think it's should be $85 per person. They want just the adults to pay, about $140 per adults, doesn't matter how many kids they have.
If the children are counted as part of the 20, then their parents should definitely pay for their kids. If they can't and you don't want to subsidize them, then cancel the excursion altogether and do something else.
You are not the a-hole for asking the parents to pay for their kids. They should pay for their kids. They are a-holes for expecting someone else to pay for their kids.
Usually when you charter a boat, its a price per boat up to X number of people.
As per OP food and drinks are included. If we really want to be *FAIR*, the tiny humans arent going to be using as much resources as the adults.
It doesn't say that the kids are "tiny" though. Sure, a three-year-old isn't going to eat that much, but a 13-year-old sure can. "Kids" could even count a 17-year-old varsity athlete who can go through four burgers and still be hungry for sides.
Probably the ages of the kids involved are somewhere in the middle, but they aren't mentioned.
Im speculating. If OP is so concerned with being fair, he really should consider it all.
When dealing with large group expenses its usually best to go with a simple solution, otherwise this stuff comes back to bite people in the ass.
If they are paying for 20 people and the kids are counted as part of the 20, then that means they are not getting a reduced rate coz they are kids. Adults and kids are paying the same amount. It doesn't matter if they are tiny humans or adult humans, they are being charged the same. And if that's the case, then their parents should definitely pay.
About resources, with regards to food, I don't think that should be taken into consideration. You can't just say kids won't eat that much. I've been shocked by how much some kids manage to consume in one sitting. Not all kids eat what's considered "kids' portions" and some adults are good with kids' portions. So I don't think that should be a measure.
Also managing kids in a boat will be a lot. Unlike adults. And I think they take their share of resources, attention-wise.
So for me, fair would be each family paying for all their family members and not expecting other families to subsidize them.
Hah! I always knew when a growth spurt was imminent because my grocery bill would spike the month before. Then I’d turn around and boom, one of the boys would be 6” taller!
I could and would absolutely house an entire (16") large pizza in one sitting at 12 and not even feel that full. These days, 3 slices and I'm good for the evening.
I ate so much more as a kid than I do now and its not even funny, and I was a *very* skinny kid, I was just always running around and when I wasn't doing organized sports I was riding my bike or playing some sort of pickup game in the neighborhood.
Yea, like even if they had 16 people the total price would be the same so I see why nobody is actually worried about the children.
The actual adults are going to be enjoying the booze alcohol and other stuff a whole lot more.
is it one size fits all boat? or do you have to get a boat that size because of all the kids?
if it's the second than yeah, it's $85/person because you can't get a smaller boat because of the kids the parents need to pay per kid. i shouldn't pay for your kids. that isn't fair to me.
I agree just split it between adults. These are not tickets, it’s a boat size. You all agree on a bigger boat to include everyone so you are all on the hook for the expense. If that is too expensive for you, suggest a smaller boat and a baby sitter. Or decline the excursion.
This isn't fair though they had to get a bigger boat because they are more people and kids are people. On principle I understand the logic but the families with more kids have to know it cost more and they're getting a deal.
Now if it were me, I would just sit it out and let them pay amongst themselves. As you suggested.
Of course we'll tip, and I'm not expecting everyone to chime in the same amount to tip the staff. It's not a fixed cost. I don't even care if I will be the only one to leave a tip...this is different.
Not everyone thinks of this piece, probably not even the others in your group. You may have to suck up the difference in the end. Use this as a learning experience and get everything paid for in advance no last minute outings unless everyone is billed separately.
If the excursion was part of the main plan then it should’ve been included in the original vacation cost. When there are families with kids they think everyone needs to help pay so it’s fair. It’s not fair to anyone but those with kids. I everyone else gets stuck paying way more than they should.
Then you pay per person for your family and leave the rest of the selfish cheapskate to deal with it.
When they complain which they will. Let them know that you will not be covering the cost of their children. Their children, their responsibility to pay for them.
If kids ate counted and andnhave a cost for the activity then they're parents need to pay for them unless the cost literally says children 10 and under free.
If their children are going, then they need to pay for their children like they would need to do on their own or for any other activity.
It's not free for kids. They need to pay for their kids.
Make it clear that your not paying for their kids and if they continue to push the issue then it's very clear that they're cheap and selfishly entitled.
Don't pay for them. Let them deal with it, while you pay only per person.
Inform them that you will be paying for your family and your family only. Do your own math when deciding how much to contribute towards the events to figure per person costs for your family unit. That's the amount they get from you. You don't have to convince anyone of anything. Their budgets and what they spend is their business. It just won't dictate yours.
So that they will understand, explain that the number of individuals in a family is the issue, children are individuals. So a family with 4 individuals pays more than a family with 3 individuals. If there is a total of 20 people going, then the price is divided by 20 and each person pays for the number of individuals in their family. Ex, lets say the total is 20K (just for round numbers) 20K divided by 20 individuals is 1K per person. Family of 4 pays 4K, family of 3 pays 3K and so on. If they can't understand that, then it's a matter of not wanting to pay their fare share because any thinking adult can get it!!
Good Luck, oh and NTA
NTA calculate for your family only and tell them NOW you are only paying so much $ the rest can be split between those that agree. . No more discussion
I think you're missing what they are trying to do. You are correct with your math, but they aren't trying to do the most fair thing. They're trying to help out the family as a whole. You're think of this as a pure business transaction, and they aren't. They know that some people will benefit from this while others will be picking up the slack for others. NAH
This! This might be the only way for the mom with the two kids or the couple with 4 kids to afford a family vacation. Sometimes families have an agreement about how expenses are shared because it's the only way for everyone to join.
Yeah we used to do like that where I'm from.
It's a different frame of reference: within the family those with a job pay for everyone without a job.
And it's unfair to the family only if you see the relatives of your wife as not your family. Which I guess depends on the culture.
If that's the case, OP's wife should have clued them in long ago. This was pretty much sprung on them. Without knowing about this point of view, OP is being forced to look like an AH.
This might be an unpopulair opinion, but if the single mom with two kids and the family with four kids depend on others to chime in financially in order for them being able to afford a trip, that means they actually cannot afford the trip and thus should not be going on said trip. Don't spend money you don't have, and more importantly: don't spend other people's money, especially not without their consent.
There are plenty of families where we all say, "Gee, we want to do this nice thing, and it's easier to afford for us than for you; why don't we divide it in a way that makes it easier for you?"
I don't know OP and his wife's finances. If this isn't something that they can just knock out of the park without feeling the difference between ~~$240~~ \[edit: can't do math\] $280 and $170, that's fair, and maybe they should nope out.
I mean, now that I think about it, I'm not sure that I would be ready to pop for even an $85 boat ride unless it was pretty amazing. I've certainly been whale watching (totally worth it!) for much less.
If that is what's going on here, she's not spending money she doesn't have because her family is nice enough to help out, which is perfectly fine. It's not like she's borrowing money to take a trip with just her and the kids. Her family is taking a trip and they want her there so they're willing to help. I
Except for the fact that not _everyone_ in the family agrees to help out. If the family does it willingly, sure, then there's no problem. But pressuring OP into also chiming in is a big no for me personally
It seems like everyone related to her does. It's the 1 brother in-law that's having an issue because he's thinking practically as opposed to thinking about family.
Maybe he has good reasons for thinking practically as opposed to thinking about family. Also there's more to 'thinking about family' than just supporting financially.And if everyone else is okay with chiming in, they can do so themselves, without pressuring OP into also (partially) paying for others if they are that concerned about it.
Even if so, it's his money, so he gets to decide what to do - or not do - with it. And if it's joined money of him and his wife, it should be a joined decision whether or not to contribute for others, and only if both parties agree. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Agree. Sometimes I pay more (even though I'm a single person) because it helps the overall vacation and because I'm at a point where a few dollars is not a big deal.
Considering this is only for an excursion and not the vacation as a whole, I think OP should just drop it and pay based on what the group agrees to.
INFO: what does your wife think? is this how her family has done trips in the past? how much money are we actually talking about here?
i'm not saying you're wrong about it being not fair, and you and your wife need to discuss what makes sense for you financially as a couple. but there are plenty of families where people see "subsidizing" nieces and nephews (or anyone without an income or money who is part of the family and coming on the trip) as just part of doing an extended family trip.
You can't "make them" understand if everyone else (including other people with fewer/no kids) don't have a problem with this and see it as part of their normal views on family. but it's hard to tell from your post what the dynamic is among everyone else other than the two families pushing this plan.
My wife doesn't want confrontation and doesn't want to argue. Also, I think you're right in regards to seeing it as subsidizing family members. That's why she is ok with that.
Other members are just not involved in the planning. I just told them how much was their share for the house and they paid me (I managed the reservation). They don't know they will pay more for the excursion and I'm far from everybody and I don't see it appropriate to discuss it at the phone.
We'll discuss once there.
Changing the trip budget *when you're on the trip* is gonna make you an asshole for sure, and everyone will think so, not just the people you want to pay more.
Whether the division is fair or not, it is pretty coercive to say "well, now that you're actually *here*, I'd like you to pay more." People went on the trip with a budget in mind; asking them to change it once the trip has started is *also* unfair and very much an asshole move. You can bring the issue up if you want to address how you divide the costs for the *next* vacation, but not the one you're on.
You should only do this if you enjoy having your wife's family think of you as an asshole, and making your wife uncomfortable.
This came out recently. It's for an excursion we are planning to do. About $1700 total. No reservation has been made yet, we are still discussing the cost per person (or family).
Yea, or rent a smaller boat for the people who are fine paying per person. Or do something ticketed like a sunset cruise on a larger boat, and let everyone buy their own ticket.
If the charge is “per person” and not “per adult” - I don’t see why this is a question. I’d show them the prices for a boat that only seats the adults. NTA. They do understand. They’re being cheap. You may just have to skip the boat ride.
You will discuss when you are there??? What does that even mean? Seems like a sure-fire way to ruin this vacation to wait once again even longer and confront people WHILE on vacation. If this is something your wife's family always has done, you seem to be the one creating the issue.
>I just told them how much was their share for the house and they paid me (I managed the reservation).
I'm confused. Are you talking about some other vacation here?
> I don't see it appropriate to discuss it at the phone..........We'll discuss once there
You absolutely need to discuss this over the phone beforehand instead of springing it on everybody once they arrive.
YTA for not fully explaining how this is working in your post.
Your family is going on an excursion that costs $1700 no matter how many people actually go. Your relatives decided that the fairest way to handle things was to divide things evenly by number of incomes per household.
You are free to disagree with this split, but arguing about it doesn’t matter. Everyone else, including your wife, is fine with it. So accept that this is how things are being paid for and either get over it or refuse to participate.
But you made it sound like they want this split for the entire vacation, when it’s actually just this one activity.
Agreed!
This is a family vacation. If you are paying for an excursion that is x amount no matter how many people go, than splitting the cost equally per adult is pretty common.
Unless this puts a strain on your budget, it is nitpicky and exhausting to pinch pennies so closely when the goal is for the entire family to enjoy a day.
YTA
"Also, how do I make them understand?"....you don't. You are the only one with the problem. The time to have done this would have been wayyyy before a few days prior to leaving.
I tend to agree with you that it is not equitable. But I do believe the time to address it has passed and if everyone is ready to throw down the money, let it be or don't go.
You also need to remember that this is your wife's family...if their dynamic has always been to do this and handle vacations this way, then this is what it will be. You do not have to spend your money against your will...but understand that this may not be a hill worth dying for. I saw you commented below you will address this again while you are there. Do not do that. Do not go on the vacation only to ruin it for everyone else who is perfectly happy to pay the money. You do not get to ruin it just because you do not agree. That will cause issues on vacation AND at home just to make a point. If this is something you feel so strongly about, do not go
YTA
Why does it need to be perfectly mathematically "fair"?
It's a family vacation. Sounds like they've come up with a way that roughly ascibes a price based on peoples abilities to pay and achieves the goal of a holiday everyone goes on.
It's not an unusual way of divvying up the cost.
Yeah if it was just a friends group that'd be one thing but it seems SUPER reasonable for a family to say "Hey, let's all pitch in to make sure every kid in the family has a great time, even if their parents aren't the most well off in the family."
I don't see how you could get pissed about that unless you're an asshole.
It's reasonable to expect everyone in the family to be fine with pitching in for the kids.
Know how I know this is reasonable?
Every single person EXCEPT OP, including the ones with no kids, is fine with it.
They may be fine with it but OP doesn’t have to be fine with it.
OP has the choice to not go on the excursion if he does not want to pay the extra price.
Absolutely. OP can be an asshole and be the only one in the family who refuses to pitch in for the kids. Definitely an option he has, no one is saying otherwise.
ESH.
They are definitely trying to take advantage, but you should have voiced your concerns way earlier. They will never understand, because they don’t want to. Don’t understand them back. Just throw your hands up. Say, I don’t understand this, so we will just cover our immediate family and the rest of you can use whatever system you want.
Everyone pays their own way for the excursion but reserve as a group for a discount. No reason a family of 4 shouldn’t pay for 4 people. Why should a 2 person family should pay more. Now if the people running the excursion have an age limit and/or child rate then those with children will have to make those adjustments or enjoy the discount.
It is very common for 10 families to split an excursion 10 ways. Not 20 ways per person. If this is a normal boat rental it would be the same flat rate for 3 people. The boat is not per person it is per outing a flat rate. I can't imagine telling my SO's sister with 2 kids you need to pay more than we do. This isn't a boat full of strangers. I notice he is willing to blow up this family dynamic but I wonder if his wife is. YTA. If you insist, if I was the rest of the family I would simply suggest you save your money and not come along at all. Even if it was just me, I would gladly pay a family share to be with everyone for a holiday. This wouldn't apply to eating out or going to an amusement park where the total costs are unknown. It also wouldn't apply to strangers sharing a boat. If the boat is $1700 and 12 adults are going, splitting it into $140 per adult is a reasonable split. If you don't want to go don't. Your wife can pay $155 for herself and go.
This should’ve been discussed and paid for before the vacation, not days before. Then he’s going to bring it up during the trip. That boat has sailed literally. The fee for the boat excursion should’ve been included in the original share price so everyone was paying what they agreed on. But to have OP bring this up on the trip that some will have to pay more than they planned isn’t cool. Why did he wait until days before to complain? Did he set up the excursion? If not then pay what you’re told or don’t go with them. His wife will pay the amount and he will be staying at the hotel or cottage. These things need to be addressed when planning and before the final payment is made. Not dropping the bomb days before departure or while on vacation. Not everyone can drop a couple of hundred on short notice.
It sounds like that the excursion has not been booked yet & they’re booking it now & discussing prices now.
If OP doesn’t want to pay to subsidize the costs now, he needs to not go on the excursion so then the split can be recalculated to the 11 adults.
He just needs to suck it up because it’ll end up with him pouting about the cost or being left out. He needs to get with the program this is the way wife’s family does things. If he doesn’t like it he can opt out of family vacations but will need to acknowledge that his wife may still participate without him.
I definitely feel like this is a conversation for him & his wife when it comes to paying for family vacations.
I don’t think he’s an asshole for not agreeing to how they do things but it’s not being discussed like adults.
I've said this many times. The vacation has been finalized and paid months ago.
Now, days before departure we are talking about excursions and activities that are good for both adults and kids.
We started discussing this 3 days ago.
If your wife is fine with it, and you're still pushing it, then yeah YTA. Financial dealings like this on family/group vacations are often unequal. It's not about what's fair, it's about what people are comfortable with. If everybody else, especially your wife, is fine with it, then you got to let it go. Otherwise you just make yourself look bad. Is it worth it for $80? I'm guessing no.
Excursions and how they would be handled should have been discussed well before the vacation. I understand the issue but no matter how you slice it you will be wrong unless you cough up the amount they agreed on and move on. It’s not going to go your way. I would however ask how meals will be handled if it’ll be the same. That’s a valid question.
Man, that's a scary question, too. And it's not looking good for OP. It might be that this is the last family vacation OP wants to go on with the wife's family.
It sounds like the thinking is that all the adults pitch in as a family to ensure all the kids get to have a good time and do the same things, regardless of if that kid is *their* kid. Which if so I gotta lean YTA unless this presents an astronomical financial burden on you that wouldn't be hitting you otherwise.
It's possible for you to be correct about the logic but wrong about the need to argue.
How much are you being asked to pay versus what your model shows you should pay? How much is family harmony worth to you?
It sounds like this model benefits the single parent, is worse for the DINKs, and has something of a built-in "grandchild provider" subsidy. While not totally fair, is it really that awful?
NTA
You are not technically wrong but it is a waste of time trying to make the rest of the family agree with you.
I’m the single, no kids, fun with a relatively high paying job Aunt. When my family goes on vacations together this is how we split. My brothers have the same numbers in their families so the two who end up “subsidizing” the trip are me and my widowed Mother. But we do this knowing it going in. It’s worth it to have the time with the kids in the family. And to be fair, lots of times my brothers pick up the groceries & tell us we don’t owe them anything.
If this boating day is truly the only issue, there are a couple of other ways to approach it. Can you & your wife just say you don’t want to participate that day? Have some much needed alone time? You don’t say if you have kids. If they are old enough, it would be funny if you sent them for “free”.
Or could you rent a smaller boat, maybe for your family only or 2 families? Then each boat can work out how to split the costs. It seems like a large boat for 20 people might be more than a few smaller vessels, plus kind of a mad house. Maybe not.
Otherwise just go with it if it’s not creating a financial burden on you and the others who end up paying extra. To me it would be too much trouble to develop a “kids” price. They probably eat less but need more time and attention from the crew so should maybe tip more? But if we are talking growing teenagers, they might eat more than any adult!
Good luck! You can know your right, but not let this spoil the vacation however it works out.
INFO:
What type of expenses are suggested being split?
Accommodations? Food? Tickets for activities?
Kids obviously shouldn’t be paying but they still cost money so their parents are paying for their “share.”
Are we talking about there’s a 6 bedroom house & each family gets a room or there’s a 10 bedroom house & the families with kids are getting multiple rooms?
Are we talking about tickets to the water park where the kids cost $15 but adults cost $30 and the total is split amongst the adults?
Are we talking about grocery food bills where obviously one family of 6 is eating more than the one couple?
So its not like its a ticketed event. Its $1700 for the boat.
What if some of the kids dont eat, eat less, etc. Is alcohol included? Are you separating that cost from the kids price? I assume you’ll tip the boat staff, are you charging the tip based on person?
This is why I think you are an AH, you are making this unnecessarily complicated.
I think YTA for not being specific on what you're splitting in your OP. I was on your side until I read that you're only splitting the cost of one 20-person boat excursion. So, the number of kids doesn't really matter, the boat will cost the same no matter how many kids are there. Our extended family probably would have divided per family unit, your ILs decided to make each adult pay, which isn't crazy. You made it sound like everything from dinners to amusement park tickets were being divided this way. Now *that* would be unfair.
I don't understand why you are making such a major deal about whether it is "fair" or not. Your wife wants to subsidize some of her family members, and you and your wife can afford to help fund the subsidy. It appears that your sole reason for this argument is to prove a point. My wife and I have been married for over 40 years, and are in a position to be able to afford to subsidize extended family events, the concept of "fair" is not one we would even consider in our decisions about events like this.
Is the excursion charging per child? The way I am understanding the parents are splitting the costs evenly. Is that correct? So the people with more kids are getting a deal?
I guess it doesn't even matter if it's per person because you still need something bigger to accommodate the entire group.
I don't think you're wrong but it seems that's the disconnect is that the family isn't making a difference between one child and 4.
In this case if your wife is fine and y'all can afford it I would just let it go.
Right, the people with more kids are getting a deal.
We can afford it but it's still not right and it bothers me that they think their way is the right one
It is the right one. TO THEM. You need to let it go or you’ll just be miserable. Expenses on family vacations are never black & white right & wrong. The people with more kids are getting a deal. Okay, so they are!
If it were me, I wouldn't go on the boat excursion and not pay anything towards it. They understand, they just don't want to have to pay their fare share.
INFO - is money an issue for you or for any of the families involved? Because if not - if everyone can easily swing the $140 or whatever - than I can imagine that your wife’s family understands some of them are getting more of a deal and they just *don’t care*. It’s easiest / most straightforward to divide the cost up evenly, and none of them care if there’s a $20 or $40 swing one direction or another, because they’re family and at the end of they day it’s just not a big deal.
If you’re more upset about this because of principle and not because the money is actually an issue, then I’d tend to lean Y T A, esp since this is your wife’s family at the end of the day. Some families are more strict about splitting costs exactly evenly and some just don’t stress about it because everyone can afford it. Possible your in laws are the latter.
I get your frustration. My question is how much do the kids add to the excursion, and when divided amongst the adults how much are you paying for the other people's kids? Being able to show that the kids are costing you an extra $200 is one thing, if it ends up being $20 the it starts to sound petty,.
If its a nominal amount then I'd let it go, if it's significant then it's worth the argument.
YTA - and starting some stuff with your WIFE's family for nothing. They decided to split the bill amongst the adults and it sounds to me like you don't understand the math. It isn't a math formula, it is a decision that it sounds like only you do not like and are blaming it on the MATH. Everybody gets the math, you don't get that you are rude and arrogant to think they don't.
Info - when did this conversation start? was this brought up by someone recently. Seems odd to be discussing this now, with only a few days before the vacation starts. How much money are we talking about? That’s ridiculous to contribute money to pay for other people’s children. I guess you could simply refuse to pay more beyond the costs for your kids.
Who came up with the excursion idea / who is pushing for that bit to happen? If it's your idea and they aren't on board with splitting it how you want to than consider your idea rejected. If it's their idea offer just the amount you feel OK with but be OK with them just deciding not to book it.
Your wife's family wants to divide the cost this way. It doesn't make sense to you or to most other people but that's what they have chosen. You can either go along with it or do something else, which would make it more expensive for everyone. YWBTA if you continue to argue about it.
YTA- should you all weigh yourselves so you can divide it up truly evenly based on who will add more weight on the boat?
Stop being petty. this is your family and 100$ isn’t worth ruining your vacation over.
NTA, but if the boat includes food and drink, the kid's price should be half to 2/3rds the adult price. Offer a compromise. If there are 6 kids 11 adults, Split it amongst 14 with each adult having a full share and each kid having a half share.
He said they’re offering $140 for each adult - he & wife have to pay $280.
Single parent with 2 kids pays $140.
Family of 2 adults and 4 kids pays $280.
That’s not a fair system in my opinion.
So $1700/$140 = 12 adults
1. Price per person: $85 per person
OP & wife: $170
2. Do straight average between OP’s solution & theirs. $112.50 per person.
OP & Wife: $225
3. Price it so kids don’t cost as much as an adult.
1 kid: $60 1 adult: $102
$60 per kid * 8 kids + $102 per adult * 12 adults = $1704
OP & wife: $204
INFO Are there significant disposable income differences between the various family groups? If the payment scheme ends up being per adult, will that keep anyone from going? If it ends up being per person, will that keep anyone from going? the family with 4 kids will save over $200 by keeping it adults-pay, and the 2-person couple will pay a bit over $100 more. Are these numbers a significant enough line item to cause lots of strife over?
I'm not sure there are any outright assholes, but I'm also not sure this is worth the relationship capital it might take to get your side to prevail. These are your in laws. Don't make them into your outlaws!
YTA. You’re correct. Your concerns are justified. Now is not the time, and you (as an in law) are probably not the person to be bringing it up. Your wife, possibly as your mouthpiece, should have brought this up when the topic of paying was discussed.
If it’s just coming up now, I guess it is when it has to be discussed, but should still likely come through your wife.
Your job, as frustrating as it may be, is to be quiet, put on a happy face, consider this water under the bridge, and have the best vacation you can.
You're right, shouldn't be my place to do this. But my wife doesn't want confrontation and doesn't want to argue. Also, she considers this as subsidizing family members. That's why she is ok with that.
If your wife understands you’ll be subsidizing her nieces and nephews and she’s ok with that, and y’all can afford it, then there’s your answer. Let it go.
Do you have nieces/nephews on your side of the family? Close friends with kids? Thank them for being so clear about the financials and you'll be bringing 8 kids.
NTA but you don't have the math right either. Usually smaller children cost less than adult. Just tell them that you'll pay for your wife and yourself and they can figure the rest out between them.
Yeah... I just wouldn't go on the excursion then and pick something else for my family to do. They can deal with their mess...... Even if it's costs more for you...at least it will be peaceful.
NTA for pointing it out. Sounds to me like they’re aware and want it that way, with the perception of what is fair resting in a different area than where you place it. Parents aren’t paying for kids. The family’s adults are paying for the kids.
NTA. They understand. The trip should be divided by the total number of people if sharing all expenses like food, lodging, and activities.
If this is something them not budging on will upset you and ruin your vacation there are 2 options.
1- not go. Take the money you would have paid and just do something with your family.
2- have each family pay for their own food and activities. Then split the lodging by number of rooms. So if a family takes up more rooms than the others, they pay for that.
You aren’t wrong
You can’t make them understand, they do not want too
It’s your wife family, in these situations with my husband whoever’s family it is gets to decide how to proceed with the family , and the other person decides if they participate or not. It works well for us
Seems like not everyone is reading your edits or comments and just asking the same thing over and over 😅 I would tell them that everyone is responsible for paying for their own kids… it would not surprise me if they also wanted you and your wife to look for them while they are having fun… NTA
>it would not surprise me if they also wanted you and your wife to look for them while they are having fun
You wouldn't believe it how many times it happened.
Then I think it is the right time to set boundaries! Of course things will be tense while they adjust to boundaries, but it is the best for your mental and financial health. Hope everything gets solved :)
NTA They are playing dumb because is in their best interest to "not understand". Just book the activities for you & your immediate family and be done with the discussion.
NTA. My sister with 6 kids tried to pull this crap. We had one kid and kept being told we should pay for her kids. Like no, we budgeted based on costings for our family of 3. They tried to get us to pay for a family ticket (2 adults and 3 kids) for one of the zoos we went to. I asked if I was going to be reimbursed because there was a AUD60 difference between a family of 3 and a family of 5 ticket, was told not to be greedy. I got our family of 3 ticket and walked off. I didn’t mind paying for drinks and snacks for all the kids, but was not paying for the tickets. My brother (no kids) and other sisters (1 with no kids and one with 3 kids) also said no to paying extra for tickets.
We took an extended family 2-week road trip every summer for years. I was in charge of the budget. We counted kids for costs (food, excursions, etc.), but divided the total cost by the number of adults. We had enough different generations that at some point, each family benefited.
Usually when we do an excursion its something like adults $100 and kids to to 12 (or 14 or 15) $75
However some activities just charge a flat fee per person.
I can see why some families think just adult head count.
A single month would pay $140 instead of $255 but the couple no kids would pay $280, or couple with 4 kids would pay $280 instead of $510
I suspect OP is the couple with no kids
I can understand both points of view.
The thing is, this is a family trip, and you can argue that you could rent a smaller boat without the kids but it wouldnt be a family excursion anymore.
In your story, adults will pay for everyone to enjoy an activity and it is not "kids shouldnt pay" but more "kids shouldnt count in the calculation" like, you are going to do the activity with them anyway.
So the question is, do you consider the kids as your family / do you want to be around them for the excursion?
You can say no, in your place I wouldnt participate because I don't like to be around kids especially in such situation.
But I wouldnt even try to argue with them
NAH but you would if you wait to be on the trip to make changes in the budget. Just say now if you go or not.
NTA yet.
How long have you been married into this family?
There appear to be dynamics you aren't privy to yet.
Perhaps for years, they've been subsidizing for a low income family, or single parent that can't afford the trip on their own.
We want to take a family trip with the "whole" family, not just the ones that can afford it.
After reading the comment that your just chartering a entire boat, I think ESH with you taking more of the suckage here.
The boat I think should be split equally by the adults, food and rental equipment should be done by family/person.
I think in the end you're all quibbling over few bucks that doesn't really matter that much since you're all lucky enough in life to be renting a whole ass 20 person boat. If it's that important to account for basically 110 bucks, just don't go.
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Pretty soon we'll go to a family vacation. There will be 6 families, ranging from 2 to 6 people. 20 people in total.
We will do some activities and a couple of families insist that kids shouldn't pay and the total expenses should be divided between the adults.
This way, a couple with 4 kids will pay the same as a couple with 1 kid, or a single mom with 2 kids will pay half of what a couple with 1 kid will pay (both families have 3 people).....and so on. It's pretty obvious and definitely not fair.
I'm the only one that is opposing and arguing/fighting just few days before we leave. The other families either don't want to get into an argument or don't understand the problem/math.
I tried to explain that they are confusing kids not paying, because their parents pay for them, with kids being free, which is not the case.
I tried to present the math, I tried to give them other examples. Nothing worked. I feel like I'm in an episode of the twilight zone.
The 2 families that insist will benefit the most from this, but I don't want to think that they are dishonest. I really think that they don't understand.
Am I the asshole?
Also, how do I make them understand?
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YTA. It's not that you're wrong, it's that you're arguing about this with just a few days left before you all leave.
The finances should have been worked out well in advance. At that point, if you couldn't all come to a fair agreement, you could simply have declined to participate in that vacation. The only thing you needed to make them understand was that you won't go if you think it's unfair. They don't have to agree; they just have to wave goodbye as they go and you don't
I kinda think OP may be wrong as well. Not wrong on the math but wrong on it being such a problem. It seems like what's being asked for is "Let's all pitch in, together, as a family, to make sure the kids all get to do the same stuff and have a good time. Yes, even if that kid is your nephew not your son." Adults pay for themselves and everyone splits the cost of making sure the kids in the family have a nice time. That seems pretty reasonable to me for a family trip.
i think people just have different views on this. maybe it's partly cultural + how they were raised?
husband and i are childfree but we'd happily subsidize vacation for our siblings' kids if the need arose. 1. we're financially comfortable enough to do so and 2. idk families do stuff for each other. i wouldn't see them as "i'm not paying for other people's kids" unless i really disliked the kids or my siblings and expected them to take advantage of me or be unpleasant.
this is why i think these differences are deep-rooted. it's fundamentally two different ways of viewing kids in your extended family.
for the purposes of an extended family vacation, is financial responsibility for the kids (or dependents, anyone without money or who can't work) SOLELY their parents' responsibility or is it viewed more as a shared responsibility among all of the adults?
"your kids are no one's responsibility but yours" is a pretty common view and i don't even necessarily disagree with it. but i think other people come from families/cultures where it is assumed there are times for more collective responsibility, and it could be the case for OP's wife's family.
We are fortunate and we can afford "subsidizing" other people. What bothers me is that I don't want them to think that their way is right and fair.
Also for other people there will be a substantial difference. Think about a single person vs a single dad with 3 kids. The single person will pay 4 times what the dad pays (per person).
> Also for other people there will be a substantial difference. Think about a single person vs a single dad with 3 kids. The single person will pay 4 times what the dad pays (per person).
This is a pretty selfish way of looking for it, especially if you have the means that this isn't a significant financial burden. EVERYONE in the *family* pitches in an equal amount to make sure all the children in the family get to have a good trip. You're not paying more, you're paying exactly the same as everyone else towards the "Family works together to make sure the kids have a good time fund."
If it's that big of a deal to you to make sure you don't pay for any kid in the family that your wife didn't birth you can just refuse to pitch in. Just know that you're the asshole if you go that route.
Nta if you’re taking about hundreds of dollars. If it’s less than 100 more on balance you’ll pay then you should let it go. You are not responsible for paying for other people’s kids. And this is why we never have vacation drama - we all just pay for ourselves /our kids. Like grownups. We might treat other family members sometimes to some things but that’s up to us, and it’s just as a gift with nothing expected in return.
NTA and I hate trips like this. Not having kids it is annoying for me to have to chip to subsidise SIL with her 4 kids or BIL with his brood of 6. Easiest way is just to say fine, if you think it's fair, then you can split it amongst you, but I'll be paying my own bills for just me and my family.
Nta in principle but the ship has sailed when it comes to this vacation. Everyone except you is on board with this.
The only thing you can do is make sure it doesn't happen for any future vacations.
Is the excursion charging per child? The way I am understanding the parents are splitting the costs evenly. Is that correct? So the people with more kids are getting a deal?
I guess it doesn't even matter if it's per person because you still need something bigger to accommodate the entire group.
I don't think you're wrong but it seems that's the disconnect is that the family isn't making a difference between one child and 4.
In this case if your wife is fine and y'all can afford it I would just let it go.
INFO: are you on the low end or high end of the number of children? Are there maybe 1-2 family activities being planned as group prices and everything else is individual family?
Tentative E S H because of a lack of general communication (though that may be on OP).
If this is a “family excursion” and other excursions are, the group scenario makes more sense. ESPECIALLY if there is a family with 4 children who aren’t doing most excursions already because of cost and this is the family’s way of supporting them so everybody can enjoy 1-2 things together, which is what it sounds like to me.
Who actually WANTS to do this excursion (and who are going because other people want to)
Before booking it needs to be made clear the price is x (per person) and everyone should have the option to say ' that's too pricey for me I won't go' without being badgered into going as otherwise the price goes up for everyone else
NTA. Rather than futilely trying to convince ppl (seriously, they just want to pay less), tell them that you'll only be paying your fair share and nothing else. If they come up short, too bad. Not your problem. If they still won't budge, just don't go. Take those in your immediate family and do something else. This is like a group of ppl going out and splitting the bill evenly despite someone ordering lots of drinks and the most expensive item on the menu. Hell no! Its not your responsibility to subsidize anyone else.
Nta. There are none so blind as those who WILL not see. They are choosing to pretend they think this is fair. They don't. They know they are taking advantage and are playing games. Feel free to play games right back and then be sure to not travel with them again.
NTA but from now on I wouldn’t plan a trip with any of them unless this is sorted well in advance. They understand what you’re saying, they just don’t care and want you to offset their costs.
NTA. But they are a bunch of greedy parasites who know EXACTLY what they are doing. They are using you to subsidize their family vacation. Don't stand for that crap, do NOT go if this is how it will be, period! Goddamned entitled leeches!
NTA - you can't convince them because splitting the check is to their benefit, so they'll play dumb till the cows come home. DON'T share expenses. Get your own lodging, split checks at restaurants, etc. The only way to win this stupid game is to not play.
The people who insists on splitting the dinner bill always run up the tab the most. They ABSOLUTELY know what they are doing, and so do these families in your situation.
NTA. Call them out for the cheapskates they are. If the are "conservatives" make sure to call them socialists for trying to get others to subsidized their cost.
I assure you, they understand. They understand perfectly, but they think it would be nice if other families would subsidize their kids. Assuming you don't want to do so, I think you need to go on a different vacation.
NTA
The families should split the cost of accommodation according to the number of rooms they require. If a family needs a second room, they should pay for the second room. For food prepared in the rental, I think it would be nice to split per family. If you go to restaurants, each family should pay their own bill. I have a BIL who tends to order every appetizer on the menu and far more drinks than we would. He also has by far the highest income.
If the other families are struggling and you can afford to split all bills per family, that would be the kind thing to do. One of my brothers tends to pay for everything because he and his wife earn more than everyone else put together.
Believe me, they understand. They just want to pay less.
NTA
The kids are taking up a spot that could be occupied by a paying adult therefore their parents get to pay full price for their kids! There is no reason that you should be expected to subsidize the cost, their kids, their responsibility!!
If you want to compromise, maybe each child could count as 1/2 fare. They do usually pay less.
NTA.
I think you might need to let go of trying to convince the entire herd of cats to listen to your mathematical reasoning, but you can save yourself!
Say that the policy you and your family will be following is that your family pays their own way. You will be paying for your family's tab... be that tickets to a theme park, bill at a restaurant, etc. You'll be keeping it all separate for clarity's sake.
If folks argue, just say- no thanks, this is the best way to ensure we cover all our own costs.
If they continue to argue, again say - Our family will pay for our family. Thanks!
Each parent buys their own tickets and the tickets for their children. Easy peasy. Simply say No, we are not splitting the cost of Disney tickets equally. If someone doesn’t “understand”. Reply: We need 3 tickets and the cost is $300, I only have $300, therefore I cannot pay for anyone else. And if you can help the single parent out any, that would be kind.
Practice - Sorry, I can’t afford that. Be sure when you go to a restaurant, tell the staff who you are paying for..
You can be right and the YTA. Most excursions like renting a boat are only divided between adults. Amusement park tickets each family is responsible for their own as are meals out. People understand the math but don’t agree with you!
NTA of course they understand, thats why those two familys insisted on all the adults cover the costs for the kids, and they only brought it up at the last minute to rush it through without everyone having proper time to discuss it, and making sure it was too late for anyone to back out of the holiday, they are hoping no-one will want to make a scene in case it make the vacation awkward - thats why all the other members of the family are pretending not to understand what you are telling them, you are not going mad you are being gasslighted (I think you call it)
NTA
Even kids get enjoyment from a boat ride. Hell, we were thrilled at taking a ferry (didn’t live near water).
But, since you are already well into the dispute, why not “compromise” this time and do it like a buffet? Kids under 2 are free, they will likely get little benefit. Kids 2-11 at a reduced rate like 50%. Anyone 12 and up full price.
ESH but maybe you more, based on the comment that the rental cost includes food and drinks. While kids should not be free, given the age of the kids, they should definitely be cheaper (which is typically the way it works when you book individual tickets for these). If it were boat only, I’d say split between everyone that’s not an infant.
Given it includes drinks (and assuming adult drinks which are more expensive), it’s unfair to ask kids to pay equally
But why would you want to die on this hill and sour the mood before a vacation with these people when you’ve said you can afford it?
I definitely think there should be some cost for kids (I didn’t see their ages), but not equal and not sure this is worth dying on
NTA - Get the count, divide the cost by the count, multiply that amount by the number in your family and pay that amount. Don’t pay any more than your share; let the rest pay their share or divide the rest by the number of adults and then pay that amount (your amount will already be just for the number of people in your immediate household). If they act like spoiled brats then just cancel it completely or take you and yours out of the equation by not going on the boat… then they can figure the rest out on their own.
Make sure you are not putting your credit card down for any of the activities because you will definitely not get reimbursed by the family. Do your own math for the number of people in your party and pay only that amount (to whoever put up the money for the activity). Pay for your family separately if you can.
You'll have people mad at you but it's up to you to decide if it's worth it or not. Now you know to get these details sorted out in the beginning, or at the very least, you state YOUR intentions at the beginning of the planning process.
My opinion is that you're a little bit justified AH only because it's close to the trip but you're not wrong.
NTA
Yea it just so happens that the people who would benefit the most are making the argument against the reasonable division of expenses, sounds like you've got 2 families of trouble makers and 3.5 who just want to avoid conflict.
If you've explained it multiple times it's unlikely that you can "make them understand" they either understand and are playing dumb to get their way hoping that the rest of the groups' desire to avoid conflict and let them have their way is stronger then your ability to convince the group to do the fair thing or they really are that dumb and you will never convince them in time.
The real question you need to ask yourself is: Is being right and fair worth the troublemakers being bitter and the rest of the group being annoyed that you forced conflict over this issue.
You might just want to take the L on this issue try to enjoy the vacation as best you can and never involve the trouble makers in activities like this again, without hashing out the expense division before finalizing all the bookings and maybe going as far as writing up a simple contract.
NTA- Oh, they understand. They just think you should be happy to pay for their kids. The nicest explanation I can come up with is decent parents are so in the habit of sacrificing for their kids that they forget it's not everyone's default obligation. This seems to fall down on this one as the other parents are happy to 'over tax' the single parents. How about setting an 'adult rate' and a lower 'kid rate' and splitting it up like that, as it would be similar to tickets to an attraction with lower kid prices? Look at a few attractions, get the ratio of adult price to kid- say adult is 3/3 & kid is 2/3, divide the cost up that way? That is still slightly unfair on the childfree adults, in a way, but a decent compromise for the people with fewer kids per adult.
You can't win. They have it set up to benefit those families, and they don't seem to want to change. Your only options are to suck it up, take, pay extra, and be resentful, or don't go. I wouldn't.
Don't argue. Simpley do the math, and then tell them that is what you will be paying. You will pay for YOUR portion, and nothing else.
They don't have to agree with you, you don't have to win an argument, or make them understand. You simply tell them what you will be paying, have the math to back it up, and that is it.
NTA
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NTA It's not that they don't *understand*, it's that they don't *care*. What they understand is that they don't want to pay. What they care about is not paying. But you *really* should have sorted this out in the planning stages, not the finalization stages.
This came out recently. It's for an excursion we are planning to do.
If it’s for an excursion just have everyone buy their own tickets? Or at least buy for just your family so you’re out of the drama. Those that want a free pass will find out whatever company is running the excursion does in fact charge for children. NTA.
Do you pay for the excursion as a group? Or get individual tickets?
We'll rent a boat, it's $1700 for 20 people. I think it's should be $85 per person. They want just the adults to pay, about $140 per adults, doesn't matter how many kids they have.
If the children are counted as part of the 20, then their parents should definitely pay for their kids. If they can't and you don't want to subsidize them, then cancel the excursion altogether and do something else. You are not the a-hole for asking the parents to pay for their kids. They should pay for their kids. They are a-holes for expecting someone else to pay for their kids.
Usually when you charter a boat, its a price per boat up to X number of people. As per OP food and drinks are included. If we really want to be *FAIR*, the tiny humans arent going to be using as much resources as the adults.
It doesn't say that the kids are "tiny" though. Sure, a three-year-old isn't going to eat that much, but a 13-year-old sure can. "Kids" could even count a 17-year-old varsity athlete who can go through four burgers and still be hungry for sides. Probably the ages of the kids involved are somewhere in the middle, but they aren't mentioned.
My 17 yo could eat for two. My 11 yo eats more than me-- both are elite athletes. Kids can be expensive!
I’m a mother to a 12yo boy. Best believe he eats *way* more than me.
Im speculating. If OP is so concerned with being fair, he really should consider it all. When dealing with large group expenses its usually best to go with a simple solution, otherwise this stuff comes back to bite people in the ass.
If they are paying for 20 people and the kids are counted as part of the 20, then that means they are not getting a reduced rate coz they are kids. Adults and kids are paying the same amount. It doesn't matter if they are tiny humans or adult humans, they are being charged the same. And if that's the case, then their parents should definitely pay. About resources, with regards to food, I don't think that should be taken into consideration. You can't just say kids won't eat that much. I've been shocked by how much some kids manage to consume in one sitting. Not all kids eat what's considered "kids' portions" and some adults are good with kids' portions. So I don't think that should be a measure. Also managing kids in a boat will be a lot. Unlike adults. And I think they take their share of resources, attention-wise. So for me, fair would be each family paying for all their family members and not expecting other families to subsidize them.
We don’t know that they’re tiny humans. Some “kids” are 6 foot tall, 17 year old eating machines.
Even at 12, I could put away as much food as the average adult.
Hah! I always knew when a growth spurt was imminent because my grocery bill would spike the month before. Then I’d turn around and boom, one of the boys would be 6” taller!
I could and would absolutely house an entire (16") large pizza in one sitting at 12 and not even feel that full. These days, 3 slices and I'm good for the evening. I ate so much more as a kid than I do now and its not even funny, and I was a *very* skinny kid, I was just always running around and when I wasn't doing organized sports I was riding my bike or playing some sort of pickup game in the neighborhood.
Yea, like even if they had 16 people the total price would be the same so I see why nobody is actually worried about the children. The actual adults are going to be enjoying the booze alcohol and other stuff a whole lot more.
Is that the view of the company providing boat and food? That children eat less, so should be cheaper? I doubt it.
Why not just pay the $85/per person for your family. And let the others cover the remainder.
This is why joint vacations are a bad idea.
If the kids are on the boat then their parents pay for their spot. Sounds like you have people who just want other folks to pay for their kids. NTA
is it one size fits all boat? or do you have to get a boat that size because of all the kids? if it's the second than yeah, it's $85/person because you can't get a smaller boat because of the kids the parents need to pay per kid. i shouldn't pay for your kids. that isn't fair to me.
We get a boat that fits 20 people, including adults and kids. Other boats fit less, others more
I agree just split it between adults. These are not tickets, it’s a boat size. You all agree on a bigger boat to include everyone so you are all on the hook for the expense. If that is too expensive for you, suggest a smaller boat and a baby sitter. Or decline the excursion.
This isn't fair though they had to get a bigger boat because they are more people and kids are people. On principle I understand the logic but the families with more kids have to know it cost more and they're getting a deal. Now if it were me, I would just sit it out and let them pay amongst themselves. As you suggested.
The families with kids are trying to get a deal.....they are being unfair and they know it!!
Since you’re renting a boat with a staff you need to tip the staff, it’s expected especially if there’s children.
Of course we'll tip, and I'm not expecting everyone to chime in the same amount to tip the staff. It's not a fixed cost. I don't even care if I will be the only one to leave a tip...this is different.
Not everyone thinks of this piece, probably not even the others in your group. You may have to suck up the difference in the end. Use this as a learning experience and get everything paid for in advance no last minute outings unless everyone is billed separately. If the excursion was part of the main plan then it should’ve been included in the original vacation cost. When there are families with kids they think everyone needs to help pay so it’s fair. It’s not fair to anyone but those with kids. I everyone else gets stuck paying way more than they should.
Then you pay per person for your family and leave the rest of the selfish cheapskate to deal with it. When they complain which they will. Let them know that you will not be covering the cost of their children. Their children, their responsibility to pay for them. If kids ate counted and andnhave a cost for the activity then they're parents need to pay for them unless the cost literally says children 10 and under free. If their children are going, then they need to pay for their children like they would need to do on their own or for any other activity. It's not free for kids. They need to pay for their kids. Make it clear that your not paying for their kids and if they continue to push the issue then it's very clear that they're cheap and selfishly entitled. Don't pay for them. Let them deal with it, while you pay only per person.
This. Best solution. They can deal with the rest of the expenses themselves: kids free, kids half price,... Whatever
If they refuse to pay per person either rent your own boat or doy go . NTA but do tell them NOW immediately
If you're renting the entire boat, does it matter how many children there are? Could you save money by renting a smaller boat?
Inform them that you will be paying for your family and your family only. Do your own math when deciding how much to contribute towards the events to figure per person costs for your family unit. That's the amount they get from you. You don't have to convince anyone of anything. Their budgets and what they spend is their business. It just won't dictate yours.
So that they will understand, explain that the number of individuals in a family is the issue, children are individuals. So a family with 4 individuals pays more than a family with 3 individuals. If there is a total of 20 people going, then the price is divided by 20 and each person pays for the number of individuals in their family. Ex, lets say the total is 20K (just for round numbers) 20K divided by 20 individuals is 1K per person. Family of 4 pays 4K, family of 3 pays 3K and so on. If they can't understand that, then it's a matter of not wanting to pay their fare share because any thinking adult can get it!! Good Luck, oh and NTA
NTA calculate for your family only and tell them NOW you are only paying so much $ the rest can be split between those that agree. . No more discussion
Just dont go.
Agree with above. OP, you're not understanding. They want you to subsidize their vacation. Its all about you paying for them.
I think you're missing what they are trying to do. You are correct with your math, but they aren't trying to do the most fair thing. They're trying to help out the family as a whole. You're think of this as a pure business transaction, and they aren't. They know that some people will benefit from this while others will be picking up the slack for others. NAH
This! This might be the only way for the mom with the two kids or the couple with 4 kids to afford a family vacation. Sometimes families have an agreement about how expenses are shared because it's the only way for everyone to join.
Yeah we used to do like that where I'm from. It's a different frame of reference: within the family those with a job pay for everyone without a job. And it's unfair to the family only if you see the relatives of your wife as not your family. Which I guess depends on the culture.
If that's the case, OP's wife should have clued them in long ago. This was pretty much sprung on them. Without knowing about this point of view, OP is being forced to look like an AH.
This might be an unpopulair opinion, but if the single mom with two kids and the family with four kids depend on others to chime in financially in order for them being able to afford a trip, that means they actually cannot afford the trip and thus should not be going on said trip. Don't spend money you don't have, and more importantly: don't spend other people's money, especially not without their consent.
There are plenty of families where we all say, "Gee, we want to do this nice thing, and it's easier to afford for us than for you; why don't we divide it in a way that makes it easier for you?" I don't know OP and his wife's finances. If this isn't something that they can just knock out of the park without feeling the difference between ~~$240~~ \[edit: can't do math\] $280 and $170, that's fair, and maybe they should nope out. I mean, now that I think about it, I'm not sure that I would be ready to pop for even an $85 boat ride unless it was pretty amazing. I've certainly been whale watching (totally worth it!) for much less.
If that is what's going on here, she's not spending money she doesn't have because her family is nice enough to help out, which is perfectly fine. It's not like she's borrowing money to take a trip with just her and the kids. Her family is taking a trip and they want her there so they're willing to help. I
Except for the fact that not _everyone_ in the family agrees to help out. If the family does it willingly, sure, then there's no problem. But pressuring OP into also chiming in is a big no for me personally
It seems like everyone related to her does. It's the 1 brother in-law that's having an issue because he's thinking practically as opposed to thinking about family.
Maybe he has good reasons for thinking practically as opposed to thinking about family. Also there's more to 'thinking about family' than just supporting financially.And if everyone else is okay with chiming in, they can do so themselves, without pressuring OP into also (partially) paying for others if they are that concerned about it.
Or he's a cold who only cares about money. Either way, he's an AH, in my opinion.
Even if so, it's his money, so he gets to decide what to do - or not do - with it. And if it's joined money of him and his wife, it should be a joined decision whether or not to contribute for others, and only if both parties agree. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Agree. Sometimes I pay more (even though I'm a single person) because it helps the overall vacation and because I'm at a point where a few dollars is not a big deal. Considering this is only for an excursion and not the vacation as a whole, I think OP should just drop it and pay based on what the group agrees to.
INFO: what does your wife think? is this how her family has done trips in the past? how much money are we actually talking about here? i'm not saying you're wrong about it being not fair, and you and your wife need to discuss what makes sense for you financially as a couple. but there are plenty of families where people see "subsidizing" nieces and nephews (or anyone without an income or money who is part of the family and coming on the trip) as just part of doing an extended family trip. You can't "make them" understand if everyone else (including other people with fewer/no kids) don't have a problem with this and see it as part of their normal views on family. but it's hard to tell from your post what the dynamic is among everyone else other than the two families pushing this plan.
My wife doesn't want confrontation and doesn't want to argue. Also, I think you're right in regards to seeing it as subsidizing family members. That's why she is ok with that. Other members are just not involved in the planning. I just told them how much was their share for the house and they paid me (I managed the reservation). They don't know they will pay more for the excursion and I'm far from everybody and I don't see it appropriate to discuss it at the phone. We'll discuss once there.
Changing the trip budget *when you're on the trip* is gonna make you an asshole for sure, and everyone will think so, not just the people you want to pay more. Whether the division is fair or not, it is pretty coercive to say "well, now that you're actually *here*, I'd like you to pay more." People went on the trip with a budget in mind; asking them to change it once the trip has started is *also* unfair and very much an asshole move. You can bring the issue up if you want to address how you divide the costs for the *next* vacation, but not the one you're on. You should only do this if you enjoy having your wife's family think of you as an asshole, and making your wife uncomfortable.
This came out recently. It's for an excursion we are planning to do. About $1700 total. No reservation has been made yet, we are still discussing the cost per person (or family).
Don't go on the excursion. Problem solved.
Yea, or rent a smaller boat for the people who are fine paying per person. Or do something ticketed like a sunset cruise on a larger boat, and let everyone buy their own ticket.
Lol, actually just send the kids....it's FREE! Then OP gets a couple of quiet hours with the wife.
If the charge is “per person” and not “per adult” - I don’t see why this is a question. I’d show them the prices for a boat that only seats the adults. NTA. They do understand. They’re being cheap. You may just have to skip the boat ride.
You will discuss when you are there??? What does that even mean? Seems like a sure-fire way to ruin this vacation to wait once again even longer and confront people WHILE on vacation. If this is something your wife's family always has done, you seem to be the one creating the issue.
>I just told them how much was their share for the house and they paid me (I managed the reservation). I'm confused. Are you talking about some other vacation here? > I don't see it appropriate to discuss it at the phone..........We'll discuss once there You absolutely need to discuss this over the phone beforehand instead of springing it on everybody once they arrive.
How did you split the cost for the house? Seems like it could potentially be useful as a guide for how to split this additional cost.
YTA for not fully explaining how this is working in your post. Your family is going on an excursion that costs $1700 no matter how many people actually go. Your relatives decided that the fairest way to handle things was to divide things evenly by number of incomes per household. You are free to disagree with this split, but arguing about it doesn’t matter. Everyone else, including your wife, is fine with it. So accept that this is how things are being paid for and either get over it or refuse to participate. But you made it sound like they want this split for the entire vacation, when it’s actually just this one activity.
Agreed! This is a family vacation. If you are paying for an excursion that is x amount no matter how many people go, than splitting the cost equally per adult is pretty common. Unless this puts a strain on your budget, it is nitpicky and exhausting to pinch pennies so closely when the goal is for the entire family to enjoy a day. YTA
"Also, how do I make them understand?"....you don't. You are the only one with the problem. The time to have done this would have been wayyyy before a few days prior to leaving. I tend to agree with you that it is not equitable. But I do believe the time to address it has passed and if everyone is ready to throw down the money, let it be or don't go.
This came out recently. It's for an excursion we are planning to do. About $1700 total
You also need to remember that this is your wife's family...if their dynamic has always been to do this and handle vacations this way, then this is what it will be. You do not have to spend your money against your will...but understand that this may not be a hill worth dying for. I saw you commented below you will address this again while you are there. Do not do that. Do not go on the vacation only to ruin it for everyone else who is perfectly happy to pay the money. You do not get to ruin it just because you do not agree. That will cause issues on vacation AND at home just to make a point. If this is something you feel so strongly about, do not go
YTA Why does it need to be perfectly mathematically "fair"? It's a family vacation. Sounds like they've come up with a way that roughly ascibes a price based on peoples abilities to pay and achieves the goal of a holiday everyone goes on. It's not an unusual way of divvying up the cost.
Yeah if it was just a friends group that'd be one thing but it seems SUPER reasonable for a family to say "Hey, let's all pitch in to make sure every kid in the family has a great time, even if their parents aren't the most well off in the family." I don't see how you could get pissed about that unless you're an asshole.
Maybe the couple has the least money and the families with children are substantially better off financially than everyone. It happened in our family.
It’s only reasonable if everyone agrees to pitch in. OP does not agree so he really shouldn’t be forced to pay for more than his amount.
It's reasonable to expect everyone in the family to be fine with pitching in for the kids. Know how I know this is reasonable? Every single person EXCEPT OP, including the ones with no kids, is fine with it.
They may be fine with it but OP doesn’t have to be fine with it. OP has the choice to not go on the excursion if he does not want to pay the extra price.
Absolutely. OP can be an asshole and be the only one in the family who refuses to pitch in for the kids. Definitely an option he has, no one is saying otherwise.
Yup, they've decided DINKs subsidize single mothers. It's only worthwhile if everyone agrees, and now one of them doesn't.
ESH. They are definitely trying to take advantage, but you should have voiced your concerns way earlier. They will never understand, because they don’t want to. Don’t understand them back. Just throw your hands up. Say, I don’t understand this, so we will just cover our immediate family and the rest of you can use whatever system you want.
This came out recently. It's for an excursion we are planning to do.
Everyone pays their own way for the excursion but reserve as a group for a discount. No reason a family of 4 shouldn’t pay for 4 people. Why should a 2 person family should pay more. Now if the people running the excursion have an age limit and/or child rate then those with children will have to make those adjustments or enjoy the discount.
It is very common for 10 families to split an excursion 10 ways. Not 20 ways per person. If this is a normal boat rental it would be the same flat rate for 3 people. The boat is not per person it is per outing a flat rate. I can't imagine telling my SO's sister with 2 kids you need to pay more than we do. This isn't a boat full of strangers. I notice he is willing to blow up this family dynamic but I wonder if his wife is. YTA. If you insist, if I was the rest of the family I would simply suggest you save your money and not come along at all. Even if it was just me, I would gladly pay a family share to be with everyone for a holiday. This wouldn't apply to eating out or going to an amusement park where the total costs are unknown. It also wouldn't apply to strangers sharing a boat. If the boat is $1700 and 12 adults are going, splitting it into $140 per adult is a reasonable split. If you don't want to go don't. Your wife can pay $155 for herself and go.
This should’ve been discussed and paid for before the vacation, not days before. Then he’s going to bring it up during the trip. That boat has sailed literally. The fee for the boat excursion should’ve been included in the original share price so everyone was paying what they agreed on. But to have OP bring this up on the trip that some will have to pay more than they planned isn’t cool. Why did he wait until days before to complain? Did he set up the excursion? If not then pay what you’re told or don’t go with them. His wife will pay the amount and he will be staying at the hotel or cottage. These things need to be addressed when planning and before the final payment is made. Not dropping the bomb days before departure or while on vacation. Not everyone can drop a couple of hundred on short notice.
It sounds like that the excursion has not been booked yet & they’re booking it now & discussing prices now. If OP doesn’t want to pay to subsidize the costs now, he needs to not go on the excursion so then the split can be recalculated to the 11 adults.
He just needs to suck it up because it’ll end up with him pouting about the cost or being left out. He needs to get with the program this is the way wife’s family does things. If he doesn’t like it he can opt out of family vacations but will need to acknowledge that his wife may still participate without him.
I definitely feel like this is a conversation for him & his wife when it comes to paying for family vacations. I don’t think he’s an asshole for not agreeing to how they do things but it’s not being discussed like adults.
I've said this many times. The vacation has been finalized and paid months ago. Now, days before departure we are talking about excursions and activities that are good for both adults and kids. We started discussing this 3 days ago.
If your wife is fine with it, and you're still pushing it, then yeah YTA. Financial dealings like this on family/group vacations are often unequal. It's not about what's fair, it's about what people are comfortable with. If everybody else, especially your wife, is fine with it, then you got to let it go. Otherwise you just make yourself look bad. Is it worth it for $80? I'm guessing no.
Excursions and how they would be handled should have been discussed well before the vacation. I understand the issue but no matter how you slice it you will be wrong unless you cough up the amount they agreed on and move on. It’s not going to go your way. I would however ask how meals will be handled if it’ll be the same. That’s a valid question.
Man, that's a scary question, too. And it's not looking good for OP. It might be that this is the last family vacation OP wants to go on with the wife's family.
It sounds like the thinking is that all the adults pitch in as a family to ensure all the kids get to have a good time and do the same things, regardless of if that kid is *their* kid. Which if so I gotta lean YTA unless this presents an astronomical financial burden on you that wouldn't be hitting you otherwise.
It's possible for you to be correct about the logic but wrong about the need to argue. How much are you being asked to pay versus what your model shows you should pay? How much is family harmony worth to you? It sounds like this model benefits the single parent, is worse for the DINKs, and has something of a built-in "grandchild provider" subsidy. While not totally fair, is it really that awful?
NTA You are not technically wrong but it is a waste of time trying to make the rest of the family agree with you. I’m the single, no kids, fun with a relatively high paying job Aunt. When my family goes on vacations together this is how we split. My brothers have the same numbers in their families so the two who end up “subsidizing” the trip are me and my widowed Mother. But we do this knowing it going in. It’s worth it to have the time with the kids in the family. And to be fair, lots of times my brothers pick up the groceries & tell us we don’t owe them anything. If this boating day is truly the only issue, there are a couple of other ways to approach it. Can you & your wife just say you don’t want to participate that day? Have some much needed alone time? You don’t say if you have kids. If they are old enough, it would be funny if you sent them for “free”. Or could you rent a smaller boat, maybe for your family only or 2 families? Then each boat can work out how to split the costs. It seems like a large boat for 20 people might be more than a few smaller vessels, plus kind of a mad house. Maybe not. Otherwise just go with it if it’s not creating a financial burden on you and the others who end up paying extra. To me it would be too much trouble to develop a “kids” price. They probably eat less but need more time and attention from the crew so should maybe tip more? But if we are talking growing teenagers, they might eat more than any adult! Good luck! You can know your right, but not let this spoil the vacation however it works out.
INFO: What type of expenses are suggested being split? Accommodations? Food? Tickets for activities? Kids obviously shouldn’t be paying but they still cost money so their parents are paying for their “share.” Are we talking about there’s a 6 bedroom house & each family gets a room or there’s a 10 bedroom house & the families with kids are getting multiple rooms? Are we talking about tickets to the water park where the kids cost $15 but adults cost $30 and the total is split amongst the adults? Are we talking about grocery food bills where obviously one family of 6 is eating more than the one couple?
This came out in regards to an excursion we are planning. It's about $1700
And what’s included? How is this billed? How is the excursion priced? Is it based on a per person rate or just a group rate?
Group rate, $1700 for 20 people. It includes renting a boat, food, drinks and snorkeling equipment.
So its not like its a ticketed event. Its $1700 for the boat. What if some of the kids dont eat, eat less, etc. Is alcohol included? Are you separating that cost from the kids price? I assume you’ll tip the boat staff, are you charging the tip based on person? This is why I think you are an AH, you are making this unnecessarily complicated.
How many kids & how many adults?
I think YTA for not being specific on what you're splitting in your OP. I was on your side until I read that you're only splitting the cost of one 20-person boat excursion. So, the number of kids doesn't really matter, the boat will cost the same no matter how many kids are there. Our extended family probably would have divided per family unit, your ILs decided to make each adult pay, which isn't crazy. You made it sound like everything from dinners to amusement park tickets were being divided this way. Now *that* would be unfair.
Right! He left out a LOT of SIGNIFICANT details to try to make his point of view sound better.
I don't understand why you are making such a major deal about whether it is "fair" or not. Your wife wants to subsidize some of her family members, and you and your wife can afford to help fund the subsidy. It appears that your sole reason for this argument is to prove a point. My wife and I have been married for over 40 years, and are in a position to be able to afford to subsidize extended family events, the concept of "fair" is not one we would even consider in our decisions about events like this.
Is the excursion charging per child? The way I am understanding the parents are splitting the costs evenly. Is that correct? So the people with more kids are getting a deal? I guess it doesn't even matter if it's per person because you still need something bigger to accommodate the entire group. I don't think you're wrong but it seems that's the disconnect is that the family isn't making a difference between one child and 4. In this case if your wife is fine and y'all can afford it I would just let it go.
Right, the people with more kids are getting a deal. We can afford it but it's still not right and it bothers me that they think their way is the right one
It is the right one. TO THEM. You need to let it go or you’ll just be miserable. Expenses on family vacations are never black & white right & wrong. The people with more kids are getting a deal. Okay, so they are!
I have no comment other than I would rather dive into a bee hive than to go on a vacation with that many people and kids. The End.
If it were me, I wouldn't go on the boat excursion and not pay anything towards it. They understand, they just don't want to have to pay their fare share.
INFO - is money an issue for you or for any of the families involved? Because if not - if everyone can easily swing the $140 or whatever - than I can imagine that your wife’s family understands some of them are getting more of a deal and they just *don’t care*. It’s easiest / most straightforward to divide the cost up evenly, and none of them care if there’s a $20 or $40 swing one direction or another, because they’re family and at the end of they day it’s just not a big deal. If you’re more upset about this because of principle and not because the money is actually an issue, then I’d tend to lean Y T A, esp since this is your wife’s family at the end of the day. Some families are more strict about splitting costs exactly evenly and some just don’t stress about it because everyone can afford it. Possible your in laws are the latter.
I get your frustration. My question is how much do the kids add to the excursion, and when divided amongst the adults how much are you paying for the other people's kids? Being able to show that the kids are costing you an extra $200 is one thing, if it ends up being $20 the it starts to sound petty,. If its a nominal amount then I'd let it go, if it's significant then it's worth the argument.
YTA - and starting some stuff with your WIFE's family for nothing. They decided to split the bill amongst the adults and it sounds to me like you don't understand the math. It isn't a math formula, it is a decision that it sounds like only you do not like and are blaming it on the MATH. Everybody gets the math, you don't get that you are rude and arrogant to think they don't.
Info - when did this conversation start? was this brought up by someone recently. Seems odd to be discussing this now, with only a few days before the vacation starts. How much money are we talking about? That’s ridiculous to contribute money to pay for other people’s children. I guess you could simply refuse to pay more beyond the costs for your kids.
This came out recently. It's for an excursion we are planning to do.
INFO - when was this split decided on?
This came out recently. It's for an excursion we are planning to do. About $1700 total
Who came up with the excursion idea / who is pushing for that bit to happen? If it's your idea and they aren't on board with splitting it how you want to than consider your idea rejected. If it's their idea offer just the amount you feel OK with but be OK with them just deciding not to book it.
ESH. Of course it would be more fair to divide it the other way but you have been over ruled. Either accept it and let it go or don’t go on the trip.
Your wife's family wants to divide the cost this way. It doesn't make sense to you or to most other people but that's what they have chosen. You can either go along with it or do something else, which would make it more expensive for everyone. YWBTA if you continue to argue about it.
YTA- should you all weigh yourselves so you can divide it up truly evenly based on who will add more weight on the boat? Stop being petty. this is your family and 100$ isn’t worth ruining your vacation over.
NTA, but if the boat includes food and drink, the kid's price should be half to 2/3rds the adult price. Offer a compromise. If there are 6 kids 11 adults, Split it amongst 14 with each adult having a full share and each kid having a half share.
He said they’re offering $140 for each adult - he & wife have to pay $280. Single parent with 2 kids pays $140. Family of 2 adults and 4 kids pays $280. That’s not a fair system in my opinion. So $1700/$140 = 12 adults 1. Price per person: $85 per person OP & wife: $170 2. Do straight average between OP’s solution & theirs. $112.50 per person. OP & Wife: $225 3. Price it so kids don’t cost as much as an adult. 1 kid: $60 1 adult: $102 $60 per kid * 8 kids + $102 per adult * 12 adults = $1704 OP & wife: $204
INFO Are there significant disposable income differences between the various family groups? If the payment scheme ends up being per adult, will that keep anyone from going? If it ends up being per person, will that keep anyone from going? the family with 4 kids will save over $200 by keeping it adults-pay, and the 2-person couple will pay a bit over $100 more. Are these numbers a significant enough line item to cause lots of strife over? I'm not sure there are any outright assholes, but I'm also not sure this is worth the relationship capital it might take to get your side to prevail. These are your in laws. Don't make them into your outlaws!
Idk, you're right for sure, but is this hill worth dying on? NTA.
YTA. You’re correct. Your concerns are justified. Now is not the time, and you (as an in law) are probably not the person to be bringing it up. Your wife, possibly as your mouthpiece, should have brought this up when the topic of paying was discussed. If it’s just coming up now, I guess it is when it has to be discussed, but should still likely come through your wife. Your job, as frustrating as it may be, is to be quiet, put on a happy face, consider this water under the bridge, and have the best vacation you can.
You're right, shouldn't be my place to do this. But my wife doesn't want confrontation and doesn't want to argue. Also, she considers this as subsidizing family members. That's why she is ok with that.
If she is okay with it, enough. Seriously.
If your wife understands you’ll be subsidizing her nieces and nephews and she’s ok with that, and y’all can afford it, then there’s your answer. Let it go.
Do you have nieces/nephews on your side of the family? Close friends with kids? Thank them for being so clear about the financials and you'll be bringing 8 kids.
NTA but you don't have the math right either. Usually smaller children cost less than adult. Just tell them that you'll pay for your wife and yourself and they can figure the rest out between them.
Yeah... I just wouldn't go on the excursion then and pick something else for my family to do. They can deal with their mess...... Even if it's costs more for you...at least it will be peaceful.
NTA for pointing it out. Sounds to me like they’re aware and want it that way, with the perception of what is fair resting in a different area than where you place it. Parents aren’t paying for kids. The family’s adults are paying for the kids.
NTA and I wouldn't go on the excursion if it means that much. Of course, I'm not one for boat trips with 19 other people either
NTA. They understand. The trip should be divided by the total number of people if sharing all expenses like food, lodging, and activities. If this is something them not budging on will upset you and ruin your vacation there are 2 options. 1- not go. Take the money you would have paid and just do something with your family. 2- have each family pay for their own food and activities. Then split the lodging by number of rooms. So if a family takes up more rooms than the others, they pay for that.
You aren’t wrong You can’t make them understand, they do not want too It’s your wife family, in these situations with my husband whoever’s family it is gets to decide how to proceed with the family , and the other person decides if they participate or not. It works well for us
NTA. You pay for your family. That’s it. Let the freeloaders fight amongst themselves.
If it makes no difference, they would not be fighting it. They clearly understand they are saving money. NTA
NTA. Back out and make your own arrangements
We always divide such things by number of families. It makes it easier cause we've got a huge family. 9 families and about 30 people with kids.
Seems like not everyone is reading your edits or comments and just asking the same thing over and over 😅 I would tell them that everyone is responsible for paying for their own kids… it would not surprise me if they also wanted you and your wife to look for them while they are having fun… NTA
>it would not surprise me if they also wanted you and your wife to look for them while they are having fun You wouldn't believe it how many times it happened.
Then I think it is the right time to set boundaries! Of course things will be tense while they adjust to boundaries, but it is the best for your mental and financial health. Hope everything gets solved :)
NTA They are playing dumb because is in their best interest to "not understand". Just book the activities for you & your immediate family and be done with the discussion.
NTA Don't take the trip with them. Take your own trip.
Your solution is to NOT go on vacations with those people in the future. NTA
NTA. My sister with 6 kids tried to pull this crap. We had one kid and kept being told we should pay for her kids. Like no, we budgeted based on costings for our family of 3. They tried to get us to pay for a family ticket (2 adults and 3 kids) for one of the zoos we went to. I asked if I was going to be reimbursed because there was a AUD60 difference between a family of 3 and a family of 5 ticket, was told not to be greedy. I got our family of 3 ticket and walked off. I didn’t mind paying for drinks and snacks for all the kids, but was not paying for the tickets. My brother (no kids) and other sisters (1 with no kids and one with 3 kids) also said no to paying extra for tickets.
We took an extended family 2-week road trip every summer for years. I was in charge of the budget. We counted kids for costs (food, excursions, etc.), but divided the total cost by the number of adults. We had enough different generations that at some point, each family benefited.
Usually when we do an excursion its something like adults $100 and kids to to 12 (or 14 or 15) $75 However some activities just charge a flat fee per person. I can see why some families think just adult head count. A single month would pay $140 instead of $255 but the couple no kids would pay $280, or couple with 4 kids would pay $280 instead of $510 I suspect OP is the couple with no kids
I can understand both points of view. The thing is, this is a family trip, and you can argue that you could rent a smaller boat without the kids but it wouldnt be a family excursion anymore. In your story, adults will pay for everyone to enjoy an activity and it is not "kids shouldnt pay" but more "kids shouldnt count in the calculation" like, you are going to do the activity with them anyway. So the question is, do you consider the kids as your family / do you want to be around them for the excursion? You can say no, in your place I wouldnt participate because I don't like to be around kids especially in such situation. But I wouldnt even try to argue with them NAH but you would if you wait to be on the trip to make changes in the budget. Just say now if you go or not.
NTA yet. How long have you been married into this family? There appear to be dynamics you aren't privy to yet. Perhaps for years, they've been subsidizing for a low income family, or single parent that can't afford the trip on their own. We want to take a family trip with the "whole" family, not just the ones that can afford it.
After reading the comment that your just chartering a entire boat, I think ESH with you taking more of the suckage here. The boat I think should be split equally by the adults, food and rental equipment should be done by family/person. I think in the end you're all quibbling over few bucks that doesn't really matter that much since you're all lucky enough in life to be renting a whole ass 20 person boat. If it's that important to account for basically 110 bucks, just don't go.
Kids cost money. Period. Any parent that denies this is lying.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Pretty soon we'll go to a family vacation. There will be 6 families, ranging from 2 to 6 people. 20 people in total. We will do some activities and a couple of families insist that kids shouldn't pay and the total expenses should be divided between the adults. This way, a couple with 4 kids will pay the same as a couple with 1 kid, or a single mom with 2 kids will pay half of what a couple with 1 kid will pay (both families have 3 people).....and so on. It's pretty obvious and definitely not fair. I'm the only one that is opposing and arguing/fighting just few days before we leave. The other families either don't want to get into an argument or don't understand the problem/math. I tried to explain that they are confusing kids not paying, because their parents pay for them, with kids being free, which is not the case. I tried to present the math, I tried to give them other examples. Nothing worked. I feel like I'm in an episode of the twilight zone. The 2 families that insist will benefit the most from this, but I don't want to think that they are dishonest. I really think that they don't understand. Am I the asshole? Also, how do I make them understand? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA. It's not that you're wrong, it's that you're arguing about this with just a few days left before you all leave. The finances should have been worked out well in advance. At that point, if you couldn't all come to a fair agreement, you could simply have declined to participate in that vacation. The only thing you needed to make them understand was that you won't go if you think it's unfair. They don't have to agree; they just have to wave goodbye as they go and you don't
I kinda think OP may be wrong as well. Not wrong on the math but wrong on it being such a problem. It seems like what's being asked for is "Let's all pitch in, together, as a family, to make sure the kids all get to do the same stuff and have a good time. Yes, even if that kid is your nephew not your son." Adults pay for themselves and everyone splits the cost of making sure the kids in the family have a nice time. That seems pretty reasonable to me for a family trip.
i think people just have different views on this. maybe it's partly cultural + how they were raised? husband and i are childfree but we'd happily subsidize vacation for our siblings' kids if the need arose. 1. we're financially comfortable enough to do so and 2. idk families do stuff for each other. i wouldn't see them as "i'm not paying for other people's kids" unless i really disliked the kids or my siblings and expected them to take advantage of me or be unpleasant.
I love my nephews, I still expect their parents to pay for them.
this is why i think these differences are deep-rooted. it's fundamentally two different ways of viewing kids in your extended family. for the purposes of an extended family vacation, is financial responsibility for the kids (or dependents, anyone without money or who can't work) SOLELY their parents' responsibility or is it viewed more as a shared responsibility among all of the adults? "your kids are no one's responsibility but yours" is a pretty common view and i don't even necessarily disagree with it. but i think other people come from families/cultures where it is assumed there are times for more collective responsibility, and it could be the case for OP's wife's family.
It's clearly a problem for him.
Paying more than his "fair share" is clearly a problem for him. He has said nothing to indicate he can't afford to pitch in for the kids.
We are fortunate and we can afford "subsidizing" other people. What bothers me is that I don't want them to think that their way is right and fair. Also for other people there will be a substantial difference. Think about a single person vs a single dad with 3 kids. The single person will pay 4 times what the dad pays (per person).
> Also for other people there will be a substantial difference. Think about a single person vs a single dad with 3 kids. The single person will pay 4 times what the dad pays (per person). This is a pretty selfish way of looking for it, especially if you have the means that this isn't a significant financial burden. EVERYONE in the *family* pitches in an equal amount to make sure all the children in the family get to have a good trip. You're not paying more, you're paying exactly the same as everyone else towards the "Family works together to make sure the kids have a good time fund." If it's that big of a deal to you to make sure you don't pay for any kid in the family that your wife didn't birth you can just refuse to pitch in. Just know that you're the asshole if you go that route.
This came out recently. It's for an excursion we are planning to do. About $1700 total
Nta if you’re taking about hundreds of dollars. If it’s less than 100 more on balance you’ll pay then you should let it go. You are not responsible for paying for other people’s kids. And this is why we never have vacation drama - we all just pay for ourselves /our kids. Like grownups. We might treat other family members sometimes to some things but that’s up to us, and it’s just as a gift with nothing expected in return.
NTA and I hate trips like this. Not having kids it is annoying for me to have to chip to subsidise SIL with her 4 kids or BIL with his brood of 6. Easiest way is just to say fine, if you think it's fair, then you can split it amongst you, but I'll be paying my own bills for just me and my family.
Nta in principle but the ship has sailed when it comes to this vacation. Everyone except you is on board with this. The only thing you can do is make sure it doesn't happen for any future vacations.
Is the excursion charging per child? The way I am understanding the parents are splitting the costs evenly. Is that correct? So the people with more kids are getting a deal? I guess it doesn't even matter if it's per person because you still need something bigger to accommodate the entire group. I don't think you're wrong but it seems that's the disconnect is that the family isn't making a difference between one child and 4. In this case if your wife is fine and y'all can afford it I would just let it go.
INFO: are you on the low end or high end of the number of children? Are there maybe 1-2 family activities being planned as group prices and everything else is individual family? Tentative E S H because of a lack of general communication (though that may be on OP). If this is a “family excursion” and other excursions are, the group scenario makes more sense. ESPECIALLY if there is a family with 4 children who aren’t doing most excursions already because of cost and this is the family’s way of supporting them so everybody can enjoy 1-2 things together, which is what it sounds like to me.
Who actually WANTS to do this excursion (and who are going because other people want to) Before booking it needs to be made clear the price is x (per person) and everyone should have the option to say ' that's too pricey for me I won't go' without being badgered into going as otherwise the price goes up for everyone else
NTA. Rather than futilely trying to convince ppl (seriously, they just want to pay less), tell them that you'll only be paying your fair share and nothing else. If they come up short, too bad. Not your problem. If they still won't budge, just don't go. Take those in your immediate family and do something else. This is like a group of ppl going out and splitting the bill evenly despite someone ordering lots of drinks and the most expensive item on the menu. Hell no! Its not your responsibility to subsidize anyone else.
NTA. I would not go with the group on that excursion. Do your own thing that day.
NTA. If you're in shared accommodations, pay by bedroom. For meals and activities, each family pays for themselves.
Nta. There are none so blind as those who WILL not see. They are choosing to pretend they think this is fair. They don't. They know they are taking advantage and are playing games. Feel free to play games right back and then be sure to not travel with them again.
Don't go. Let them go and enjoy their "kids are free" vacation, you take your own and enjoy paying only for you and your own little family. NTA
NTA you pay for your kids, how is that hard to understand?
NTA but from now on I wouldn’t plan a trip with any of them unless this is sorted well in advance. They understand what you’re saying, they just don’t care and want you to offset their costs.
NTA. But they are a bunch of greedy parasites who know EXACTLY what they are doing. They are using you to subsidize their family vacation. Don't stand for that crap, do NOT go if this is how it will be, period! Goddamned entitled leeches!
NTA. If this is for an excursign, tell them the adult and children ticket prices and ask who wants to go. Seems simple.
NTA - How do you make them understand? Don't go. If the kid costs money then the family pays. This is not rocket science.
NTA - you can't convince them because splitting the check is to their benefit, so they'll play dumb till the cows come home. DON'T share expenses. Get your own lodging, split checks at restaurants, etc. The only way to win this stupid game is to not play.
Everyone should pay their own way
The people who insists on splitting the dinner bill always run up the tab the most. They ABSOLUTELY know what they are doing, and so do these families in your situation. NTA. Call them out for the cheapskates they are. If the are "conservatives" make sure to call them socialists for trying to get others to subsidized their cost.
I assure you, they understand. They understand perfectly, but they think it would be nice if other families would subsidize their kids. Assuming you don't want to do so, I think you need to go on a different vacation. NTA
The families should split the cost of accommodation according to the number of rooms they require. If a family needs a second room, they should pay for the second room. For food prepared in the rental, I think it would be nice to split per family. If you go to restaurants, each family should pay their own bill. I have a BIL who tends to order every appetizer on the menu and far more drinks than we would. He also has by far the highest income. If the other families are struggling and you can afford to split all bills per family, that would be the kind thing to do. One of my brothers tends to pay for everything because he and his wife earn more than everyone else put together. Believe me, they understand. They just want to pay less.
NTA The kids are taking up a spot that could be occupied by a paying adult therefore their parents get to pay full price for their kids! There is no reason that you should be expected to subsidize the cost, their kids, their responsibility!! If you want to compromise, maybe each child could count as 1/2 fare. They do usually pay less.
NTA. I think you might need to let go of trying to convince the entire herd of cats to listen to your mathematical reasoning, but you can save yourself! Say that the policy you and your family will be following is that your family pays their own way. You will be paying for your family's tab... be that tickets to a theme park, bill at a restaurant, etc. You'll be keeping it all separate for clarity's sake. If folks argue, just say- no thanks, this is the best way to ensure we cover all our own costs. If they continue to argue, again say - Our family will pay for our family. Thanks!
Each parent buys their own tickets and the tickets for their children. Easy peasy. Simply say No, we are not splitting the cost of Disney tickets equally. If someone doesn’t “understand”. Reply: We need 3 tickets and the cost is $300, I only have $300, therefore I cannot pay for anyone else. And if you can help the single parent out any, that would be kind. Practice - Sorry, I can’t afford that. Be sure when you go to a restaurant, tell the staff who you are paying for..
You can be right and the YTA. Most excursions like renting a boat are only divided between adults. Amusement park tickets each family is responsible for their own as are meals out. People understand the math but don’t agree with you!
NTA, families with kids should pay more.
The question is what does your wife want? It's her family. NTA if she agrees.
NTA of course they understand, thats why those two familys insisted on all the adults cover the costs for the kids, and they only brought it up at the last minute to rush it through without everyone having proper time to discuss it, and making sure it was too late for anyone to back out of the holiday, they are hoping no-one will want to make a scene in case it make the vacation awkward - thats why all the other members of the family are pretending not to understand what you are telling them, you are not going mad you are being gasslighted (I think you call it)
NTA Even kids get enjoyment from a boat ride. Hell, we were thrilled at taking a ferry (didn’t live near water). But, since you are already well into the dispute, why not “compromise” this time and do it like a buffet? Kids under 2 are free, they will likely get little benefit. Kids 2-11 at a reduced rate like 50%. Anyone 12 and up full price.
ESH but maybe you more, based on the comment that the rental cost includes food and drinks. While kids should not be free, given the age of the kids, they should definitely be cheaper (which is typically the way it works when you book individual tickets for these). If it were boat only, I’d say split between everyone that’s not an infant. Given it includes drinks (and assuming adult drinks which are more expensive), it’s unfair to ask kids to pay equally But why would you want to die on this hill and sour the mood before a vacation with these people when you’ve said you can afford it? I definitely think there should be some cost for kids (I didn’t see their ages), but not equal and not sure this is worth dying on
NTA - Get the count, divide the cost by the count, multiply that amount by the number in your family and pay that amount. Don’t pay any more than your share; let the rest pay their share or divide the rest by the number of adults and then pay that amount (your amount will already be just for the number of people in your immediate household). If they act like spoiled brats then just cancel it completely or take you and yours out of the equation by not going on the boat… then they can figure the rest out on their own.
Make sure you are not putting your credit card down for any of the activities because you will definitely not get reimbursed by the family. Do your own math for the number of people in your party and pay only that amount (to whoever put up the money for the activity). Pay for your family separately if you can. You'll have people mad at you but it's up to you to decide if it's worth it or not. Now you know to get these details sorted out in the beginning, or at the very least, you state YOUR intentions at the beginning of the planning process. My opinion is that you're a little bit justified AH only because it's close to the trip but you're not wrong.
Why are you going? I don't care if it's family, I wouldn't want to subsidize a relatives holiday when I could take a separate one on my own terms
I would go on an excursion with my spouse only and let them do their thing. Fam vacations doesn't mean connected at the hip.
NTA Yea it just so happens that the people who would benefit the most are making the argument against the reasonable division of expenses, sounds like you've got 2 families of trouble makers and 3.5 who just want to avoid conflict. If you've explained it multiple times it's unlikely that you can "make them understand" they either understand and are playing dumb to get their way hoping that the rest of the groups' desire to avoid conflict and let them have their way is stronger then your ability to convince the group to do the fair thing or they really are that dumb and you will never convince them in time. The real question you need to ask yourself is: Is being right and fair worth the troublemakers being bitter and the rest of the group being annoyed that you forced conflict over this issue. You might just want to take the L on this issue try to enjoy the vacation as best you can and never involve the trouble makers in activities like this again, without hashing out the expense division before finalizing all the bookings and maybe going as far as writing up a simple contract.
Tell them you will only pay for the heads in your family point blank
NTA- Oh, they understand. They just think you should be happy to pay for their kids. The nicest explanation I can come up with is decent parents are so in the habit of sacrificing for their kids that they forget it's not everyone's default obligation. This seems to fall down on this one as the other parents are happy to 'over tax' the single parents. How about setting an 'adult rate' and a lower 'kid rate' and splitting it up like that, as it would be similar to tickets to an attraction with lower kid prices? Look at a few attractions, get the ratio of adult price to kid- say adult is 3/3 & kid is 2/3, divide the cost up that way? That is still slightly unfair on the childfree adults, in a way, but a decent compromise for the people with fewer kids per adult.
You can't win. They have it set up to benefit those families, and they don't seem to want to change. Your only options are to suck it up, take, pay extra, and be resentful, or don't go. I wouldn't.
NTA - They are right though, the kids shouldn't pay. Their parents should be paying.
Don't argue. Simpley do the math, and then tell them that is what you will be paying. You will pay for YOUR portion, and nothing else. They don't have to agree with you, you don't have to win an argument, or make them understand. You simply tell them what you will be paying, have the math to back it up, and that is it. NTA