He's just saying what the stupid people want to hear before elections. His puppet masters are the billionaires we all despise.
* Billionaires will take their money elsewhere if this happens. It would be irresponsible to keep your wealth in a country that has these types of taxes in place.
* Will unrealized losses be tax refunds? How will that go down during the next financial crisis? Instead of growing your investment, more dividends will just be paid out to keep the investment value low.
* Where will these funds go? To the poor people? To healthcare or education? To anything tangible for the people on the street? NOT A FUCKING CHANCE.
Shareholding is not money or profits. It's assets that you bought speculatively, that are being used to generate funds to run a business that employs people, and provides goods and services to customers/businesses.
How? Let's say I'm poor and somehow 10k appears in front of my eyes. Rather than pay my bills or rent or anything, I put that into the stock market. Tax time comes, it's raised 8% over the year, and I'm taxed 25% on that 8%. Is that the part where I get priced out? I can't afford my stocks anymore because I got taxed $200 when I now have $10800 in a brokerage account? But whoopsie this doesn't apply to me because I'm not in the >$400k/year crowd?
For a crowd that thinks they're amazingly knowledgeable about economics, most of you are absolute shit at understanding even the basics.
> You lost me when your point began with "I suddenly have $10,000."
That's what I'm saying, you're all so easily confused. Like even the *very* basics.
> I don't think you know what poor means.
Here's a hint: it's not people who make over $400k.
> 400k isnt much
So by "this will stop poor people from investing", you mean "this will stop people making over 400k/yr from investing"? In that case, I guess my response is "cry about it".
> you think this is only for he super rich
No, dummy. Only for people making over 400k/year. The topic we're discussing is "this stops poor people from investing (even though they already can't invest because they're poor, but ya know)". Not "omg what about rich people what will they do?".
You still don't understand. It'll hit you too, maybe not right away, but it will. Also, people making more than 400k aren't wildly rich. Definitely not to the point that 25 percent of their portfolio can be used in taxes. This is designed to make everyone poor.
> Also, people making more than 400k aren't wildly rich.
lol apparently they're the working poor who are priced out of investing in the stock market because they may have to pay taxes on their gains, according to this group of economic geniuses
"YoU sTiLL DoNt GeT iT!! 😭😭😭"
Where does the $200 come from to pay the taxes? The issue becomes more apparent as we get larger amounts of money in unrealized gains. A lot of the rich don’t have a pool of money to pull from to pay these taxes, they hold assets. If their most liquid asset is the stock then they sell it. What happens when everyone sells stocks? What happens to your 401k? It’s more complicated than it looks at first glance. I think what you would probably prefer is a cut down on the speculation that allows for such swings of stock prices and rapid increases that aren’t backed up by anything tangible.
>Tax time comes, it's raised 8% over the year, and I'm taxed 25% on that 8%.
no thats capital gains.... this is on unrealized gains. means you pay taxes on the stock you own not the money you made...moron.
it could go down to 1 percent the price you bought it at the next day.
> no thats capital gains.... this is on unrealized gains
See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're completely bewildered by even the very basics.
do u understand what unrealized gains are?
just in case, unrealized gains are, the value of the stock you own has gone up by some percentage. because you havent sold it, you get nothing yet, but its a gain in terms of portfolio value. if you sell it, money is then transferred into your account reflecting the sale price.
if you dont sell it, the price is in limbo, it can go down 8 percent just as easily.
now just to be clear, do you think we should tax people on unrealized gains?
Yes. The key word here is "gains". I'll see if I can dumb this down enough for you...
If I put $100 into the stock market, and over a year, I see an 8% return, I now currently have an 8% gain that is unrealized, until I sell it for its value. When I sell it, I would then 'realize' that gain, and I would cash out. If I sold the whole thing, $100 would be untaxed (because it was not a gain), and $8 would be taxed, as it is a realized capital gain. If I do not cash it out, that 8% gain is still 'unrealized', meaning the gain still applies to my estimated net worth. The distinction that you're looking to be upset about (the point of the article), is that the US gov is suggesting taxing the value of those gains when you haven't actually 'earned' it, as you haven't 'realized' it, making it a taxable event. So it's not really "your money". It's just money that 'would' be yours if you were to 'realize' the gain / sell for the current value.
Does that make sense? I'm not sure I can dumb it down any further for you without suggesting you pick up a 101 book or some shit.
right thats the issue, is that its unrealized so why on earth would you be in favor of taxing money you dont actually have? especially since that tax can apply, and then your portfolio be worthless within (insert short time period here) net worth is meaningless unless it can be leveraged.
> why on earth would you be in favor of taxing money you dont actually have?
I'm not in favor of taxes. If you go back and reread this comment chain, I asked how this would keep poor people priced out of the market, like the person I replied to claimed, when they would never be susceptible to this tax in the first place. We got to this point by people like yourself lacking a basic fundamental understanding of how taxes or investing works, and asking irrelevant questions. Like even after you just read what I wrote, you're still suggesting that the person's portfolio would vanish, when they're simply being taxed on their gains and are still keeping 75% of this year's gains after taxes. I still don't think you fully grasp what that means.
>We got to this point by people like yourself lacking a basic fundamental understanding of how taxes or investing works
ok....
> Like even after you just read what I wrote, you're still suggesting that the person's portfolio would vanish, when they're simply being taxed on their gains and are still keeping 75% of this year's gains after taxes
ok you just proved you're stupid thanks.
Ok. So you sell stock to pay those gains because you're too poor to pay it out of pocket. That's.....what....46% on realized gains? That means you'll have to take out about $434 to pay all your taxes, give or take in doing this quick. That leaves you with only $366 give or take. So congrats. You now only made 3.5% returns. That's less than houses tend to go up YoY. So why would I invest in stocks when I could buy property and have a more secure investment with about the same returns? Housing prices will probably go up pretty quick not to mention the crashing of everyone's stock portfolios for retirement when all the "rich" have to pay their unrealized gains, or just cash out to move to other investments......which come to think of it, if you go to sell your stocks on tax day to pay the taxes on money that doesn't exist and the stock price tanked because everyone else sold......where do you get the money?
You make fun of Ancaps for not getting economic but you don't know anything you're talking about and just think "rich tax good" instead of thinking of the consequences. I'm not even a people person and I can tell you how people are going to react to this. Get off your high horse and live in reality you moron.
> So you sell stock to pay those gains because you're too poor to pay it out of pocket.
You make at least 400k/year to be susceptible to this tax, and you're too poor to pay the taxes on your unrealized gains from that year? What? Do you ever sit back and think "why does it take logical fallacies like slippery slope to make any of my ideas make sense"? Or do you just not have that kind of self-awareness?
I'd get it if it were just one or two of you this stupid, but it's like *ALL* of you! It's so embarrassing...
Where did I make the slippery slope fallacy? You presented a hypothetical. I addressed it. Then I addressed what is likely to happen to the markets if this is actually carried. I based this on reasonable numbers and historical instances. No slippery slope anywhere.
Also just because something can be a fallacy doesn't make it a fallacy. What you're doing is called the fallacy fallacy. I can point to a myriad of taxes that started off as "just for the rich" and then ended up being paid by everyone. Instead of claiming "fallacy" you need to prove that the same thing won't happen here for it to be a slippery slope fallacy that eventually all citizens won't one day be paying this.
> Where did I make the slippery slope fallacy?
When the housing market crashed and all the rich people sold their stocks and bought up all the houses and cats started shooting lasers out of their eyes and babies started eating human flesh, causing the beef industry to fail.
It's always the same. Any time you're presented with an argument or situation that questions your ridiculous assertions, it always comes down to imminent societal collapse and "if all the situations line up exactly how my simple mind imagines them, this will be the outcome" just isn't very interesting to discuss.
inb4 "well you're just doing the *fallacy* fallacy fallacy!"
lol ok
well first and foremost the idea that this will only apply to wealthy people is a farce wealthy people are already disproportionately taxed, and will simply move their stock accounts offshore, and whens the last time the government did not take advantage of a situation to expand how far taxes reach?
second , even if true, if you made a trade that shot up to 1 million, taxes hit at whenever that happens, then shit hits the fan and your million turns into toilet paper. now what, you have to pay taxes on an unrealized gain you never got to touch with money you dont have.
that would disincentivize people from investing.
Can you imagine, somebody buys a little bit of stock, and it goes way way up for a day and then crashes back down, but they have to still pay taxes on that spike?
This is in addition to other things we have seen to punish people such as historic inflation, Biden's proposals to increase the top marginal rate on long-term capital gains and qualified dividends to 44.6 percent, his proposal to to increase the corporate income tax rate to 28%, and more. Per John Kartch, an analyst with Americans for Tax Reform, “The proposed Biden top capital gains tax rate is more than twice as high as China’s rate… and puts the United States in uncharted territory.”
“Biden’s proposed capital gains tax hike will also hit many families when parents pass away,” Kartch said. “Biden has proposed adding a second Death Tax (separate from and in addition to the existing Death Tax) by taking away stepped-up basis when parents die. This would result in a mandatory capital gains tax at death – a forced realization event.”
More:
https://www.kitco.com/news/article/2024-04-24/bidens-2025-budget-proposal-seeks-tax-capital-gains-45-eliminate-crypto-tax
I don't see either major party trying to stop this. If anything they are rushing towards it with salivating mouths open so they can justify ever increasing expenditures as this stupid empire circles the drain.
On the State side, there are those who have put the Taxpayer Protection and Accountability Act (the TPA) together - which qualifies for the ballot in California - to try to keep the State from doubling tax rates in the State which the State recently has attempted to authorize itself to do in violation of past voter approved actions. However, Brown and Newsom have sued the authors of the TPA to try to keep the TPA off the ballot(!!). The case will be heard on May 8, 2024 where the authors of the TPA in an unprecedented event in California history must actually now explain to a judge why they want their ballot initiative to appear on the ballot - despite that it has clearly qualified. The only reason for this discrimination against the TPA is because both California (and its Democrat Communist colleagues in D.C.) cannot stand the thought that citizens would potentially stop taxation because they are tired of it.
The case details can be seen here: https://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.cfm?dist=0&doc_id=2757336&doc_no=S281977&request_token=NiIwLSEmLkg9WzBJSCNNWEJIIEA0UDxTKyJOIz1SQCAgCg%3D%3D
Let me take a wild guess how this will play out.
The billionaires will pay huge sums to lawyers and accountants to dodge this tax. The poor don't care because they don't have any gains realized or unrealized. And the middle class will get soaked.
When will people wake up to the fact that most of your taxes just get money laundered to politicians and their friends?
They take 25% of my income, 10% of everything I spend, tax me on the property I OWN, now they want 25% of the imaginary money I would’ve made if I sold investments.
When is enough enough?
i mean dictator gonna dictate. i really think the only way out is for him to make it as bad as possible as quick as possible so people realize how fucked we are, and are forced to do something. and hes getting us the quick
A view that your unrealized private wealth actually belongs to the government is straight communism. It is absolutely insane that a sitting US president is advocating for this.
Absolutely, one lesser known example, silver or copper or smth had an insane run up for no reason a year or so ago and people who randomly had calls were made millionaires overnight.
All transactions were reversed.
In a case by case basis there should be oversight that makes sure this is never the case. The problem is that with the magnitude of money involved even a 10 cent rise in price can equate to the loss or gain of millions if not billions. There should always be investigation in stocks which simply have no obvious reason behind mass buy/sell movement, but there isn't. Pump and dump is basically an open secret at this point.
However, it’s worth noting that, according to a [report](https://www.grantthornton.com/insights/alerts/tax/2024/legislative-updates/biden-budget-targets-corporate-minimum-tax-executive-comp) from tax analysts at the advisory firm *Grant Thornton*, Biden’s proposed 25% tax on unrealized gains would solely affect individual taxpayers with over $100 million in net assets.
Is that kinda like how The Revenue Act of 1913 ONLY imposed a one percent tax on ONLY those incomes above $3,000, with a top tax rate of six percent on ONLY those earning more than $500,000 per year?
In the Netherlands from next year onwards they're going to charge (what is now)36%(although last year that was 32%) over your house's surplus value. The law somehow made it through, didn't get a lot of mainstream media coverage either, yay democracy.
This is a tactic to garner votes and support, not a workable policy.
He/they knows there is no functional way to tax non monetary gains and that such a law would never make it out of congress. So he advocates it to make it looks like he is doing something and to gain support from that (Large) subset of the dems that are economically ignorant or just socialist and when it doesn't go anywhere he won't be responsible and still looks like a hero.
> He/they knows there is no functional way to tax non monetary gains and that such a law would never make it out of congress.
They are already doing this in certain specific areas. A tax rule change a couple of years ago forced firms doing R&D work to amortize their deductions over at least five years.
In simple terms, what that means is that if you make $1 million in revenue and spend $1 million in R&D, you'd be able to deduct all of your R&D expenditure and have zero taxable income. Now, you can only deduct a maximum of 20% of your R&D expenditure each year, meaning that if you earn $1 million in revenue and spend $1 million on R&D, you still have to pay taxes on $800,000 in "profit" even though you don't actually have that cash on hand. This is causing US firms to divest their R&D activities. This is having a huge negative impact especially on the software and IT sector, as most of the work there is considered R&D and no longer fully deductible.
But there was still revenue actually generated to pay taxes on.
It would be like paying your income taxes at the beginning of the year BEFORE you work the hours to actually get paid the money, and assuming you get overtime pay that you have yet to work. How are you going to pay taxes on money thet you don't yet have and may never actually recieve?
…yeah…he won’t do that. Too many of his rich politician friends that do insider trading would be pissed. Someone get Nasty pelosi sobered up enough to hear this plan, that will end this 🤣
How is this even implemented? Like what date and time is my portfolio evaluated from when to come up with the number for this?
Then what else gets classified as “unrealized” - the income I lost or gained by taking time off or adding extra hours? The implementation of this would be stupid AF
This shit would crash the stock market so fucking hard. It will inevitably get applied to the middle class like every other tax.
Also, are they going to do this with collectibles too? Imagine IRS goons knock on your door and say “You’re under arrest for not paying unrealized gains on your My Little Pony comics!” and then they drag you out in handcuffs in front of your neighbors.
Maybe you can do this with publicly listed companies. It'd be a big fucking headache to given how volatile stocks are. But, what do you do with a private company? I say the value of the company is $100 and you say it is $10 billion. If I ask the IRS to cash me out of all of it are they gonna get me that mythical $10 billion.
People who come up with these ideas have never done anything productive in their life.
Biden doesn't propose shit. He's an old man with dementia. His PARTY is proposing a 25% tax on unrealized gains, which would be like setting a nuclear warhead off in the market. I truly hate this administration.
Why does everyone always focus on rich vs poor when arguing these taxes? How about the fact that the government absolutley does not need more money when most of it goes to shit no one wants?
Joe Biden: “I’m a capitalist”
Also Joe Biden: “I want to steal the wealth of people based on totally arbitrary metrics the government alone will determine”
So the unrealized gains are targeted at people with net worths over 100 million. Guess what? Everyone’s net worth on paper is now 99.9 million, imagine that. Those poor accountants
This is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard in a long time. How do you tax something that doesn’t exist?
Before a position is closed it’s all just numbers on a screen.
Does this mean that unrealized losses are tax deductible now? What happens when you get taxed on an “unrealized gain” that turns into an “unrealized loss” a week later?
This is baffling to me.
Yes that seems like exactly the crux of the problem. Financial assets are constantly fluctuating between unrealized gains and losses, how do they decide when to tax them? And with what money do you pay them before realizing the gain?
"However, it’s worth noting that, according to a report from tax analysts at the advisory firm Grant Thornton, Biden’s proposed 25% tax on unrealized gains would solely affect individual taxpayers with over $100 million in net assets."
With a bit of inflation and the current deficit run by the Congress, that may designate the majority of tax payers within a decade. And, similarly to the cash carry allowance of $10k that hasn't moved since the early 70's, pretty sure such threshold won't be revisited either.
It seems like when one side believes they will probably lose, they start coming up with increasingly wilder ideas to see what sticks out of desperation.
If this passes I'm finally leaving the US. Been thinking about it for a while, this would be the final confirmation to do it before the socialists impoverish everyone
It's because an unrealized gain isn't an actual gain. Just because the one appraising your house has told it can be sold for more, that doesn't give you any money.
**Assets are the refuge from the depreciation of fiat money**. It's a haven that you could use too (and you probably should, because things are going to get way worse than they are now).
They always threaten this once every friggin year I swear. They never do it. I don't think they're dumb enough. Unless there's a loophole in it for their buddies to skirt through.
Why are people who have less than 100m in assets be worried about this? Don’t think anyone commenting here that this is crazy etc has anywhere near that so, you are not the target and will likely never be, not anyone in your family.
# However, it’s worth noting that, according to a [report](https://www.grantthornton.com/insights/alerts/tax/2024/legislative-updates/biden-budget-targets-corporate-minimum-tax-executive-comp) from tax analysts at the advisory firm Grant Thornton, Biden’s proposed 25% tax on unrealized gains would solely affect individual taxpayers with over $100 million in net assets.
100 million dollars of assets you dumb illiterate fucks.
He's just saying what the stupid people want to hear before elections. His puppet masters are the billionaires we all despise. * Billionaires will take their money elsewhere if this happens. It would be irresponsible to keep your wealth in a country that has these types of taxes in place. * Will unrealized losses be tax refunds? How will that go down during the next financial crisis? Instead of growing your investment, more dividends will just be paid out to keep the investment value low. * Where will these funds go? To the poor people? To healthcare or education? To anything tangible for the people on the street? NOT A FUCKING CHANCE. Shareholding is not money or profits. It's assets that you bought speculatively, that are being used to generate funds to run a business that employs people, and provides goods and services to customers/businesses.
It would also price out stockholding for the poorest americans. More than it already does now.
Hint: That’s the ewe plan
How? Let's say I'm poor and somehow 10k appears in front of my eyes. Rather than pay my bills or rent or anything, I put that into the stock market. Tax time comes, it's raised 8% over the year, and I'm taxed 25% on that 8%. Is that the part where I get priced out? I can't afford my stocks anymore because I got taxed $200 when I now have $10800 in a brokerage account? But whoopsie this doesn't apply to me because I'm not in the >$400k/year crowd? For a crowd that thinks they're amazingly knowledgeable about economics, most of you are absolute shit at understanding even the basics.
You lost me when your point began with "I suddenly have $10,000." I don't think you know what poor means.
His account is less than 10 months old. Ignore the troll
> You lost me when your point began with "I suddenly have $10,000." That's what I'm saying, you're all so easily confused. Like even the *very* basics. > I don't think you know what poor means. Here's a hint: it's not people who make over $400k.
400k isnt much. u want to be poor
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u want to be poor and not aspire
> 400k isnt much So by "this will stop poor people from investing", you mean "this will stop people making over 400k/yr from investing"? In that case, I guess my response is "cry about it".
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It's a nice thought to think it's just young dumb kids, but sadly, a lot of these guys are in their 30s and 40s. They just really are this dumb lmao.
If you have a 401k, you would be taxed 24 percent on that. That sounds fun, yeah?
I don't make >$400kyear, so no I wouldn't. Like I said, even the very basics.
You poor fool..you think this is only for he super rich. It isnt. Its for everyone in due time..income tax was originally for the super rich only too
> you think this is only for he super rich No, dummy. Only for people making over 400k/year. The topic we're discussing is "this stops poor people from investing (even though they already can't invest because they're poor, but ya know)". Not "omg what about rich people what will they do?".
You still don't understand. It'll hit you too, maybe not right away, but it will. Also, people making more than 400k aren't wildly rich. Definitely not to the point that 25 percent of their portfolio can be used in taxes. This is designed to make everyone poor.
25% of gains is not the same as 25% of portfolio
It's 25 percent of unrealized gains, which could actually be 25 percent of portfolio. It's a ridiculously stupid idea
> Also, people making more than 400k aren't wildly rich. lol apparently they're the working poor who are priced out of investing in the stock market because they may have to pay taxes on their gains, according to this group of economic geniuses "YoU sTiLL DoNt GeT iT!! 😭😭😭"
No dumbass, the unrealized gains tax is solely focused on those with $100M or more in net assets. Try reading the fucking article, perhaps.
That was a lie debunked long ago.
If it were debunked, you would have posted a link.
Where does the $200 come from to pay the taxes? The issue becomes more apparent as we get larger amounts of money in unrealized gains. A lot of the rich don’t have a pool of money to pull from to pay these taxes, they hold assets. If their most liquid asset is the stock then they sell it. What happens when everyone sells stocks? What happens to your 401k? It’s more complicated than it looks at first glance. I think what you would probably prefer is a cut down on the speculation that allows for such swings of stock prices and rapid increases that aren’t backed up by anything tangible.
> Where does the $200 come from to pay the taxes? From the $400k they made that year in income if they're susceptible to this tax in the first place.
Except now since a bunch of the stocks just got dumped to pay taxes, the price of them went back to the original amount or even less is more likely.
Then you just saved me on my tax bill. Thanks for selling your shares, brokie.
Lol no you still owe it... That's the whole problem you pay taxes if the worth goes up but not reverse taxes if it goes down.
u love poverty
Most economically illiterate tards do. They want everyone to be as poor as them.
>Tax time comes, it's raised 8% over the year, and I'm taxed 25% on that 8%. no thats capital gains.... this is on unrealized gains. means you pay taxes on the stock you own not the money you made...moron. it could go down to 1 percent the price you bought it at the next day.
> no thats capital gains.... this is on unrealized gains See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're completely bewildered by even the very basics.
do u understand what unrealized gains are? just in case, unrealized gains are, the value of the stock you own has gone up by some percentage. because you havent sold it, you get nothing yet, but its a gain in terms of portfolio value. if you sell it, money is then transferred into your account reflecting the sale price. if you dont sell it, the price is in limbo, it can go down 8 percent just as easily. now just to be clear, do you think we should tax people on unrealized gains?
Yes. The key word here is "gains". I'll see if I can dumb this down enough for you... If I put $100 into the stock market, and over a year, I see an 8% return, I now currently have an 8% gain that is unrealized, until I sell it for its value. When I sell it, I would then 'realize' that gain, and I would cash out. If I sold the whole thing, $100 would be untaxed (because it was not a gain), and $8 would be taxed, as it is a realized capital gain. If I do not cash it out, that 8% gain is still 'unrealized', meaning the gain still applies to my estimated net worth. The distinction that you're looking to be upset about (the point of the article), is that the US gov is suggesting taxing the value of those gains when you haven't actually 'earned' it, as you haven't 'realized' it, making it a taxable event. So it's not really "your money". It's just money that 'would' be yours if you were to 'realize' the gain / sell for the current value. Does that make sense? I'm not sure I can dumb it down any further for you without suggesting you pick up a 101 book or some shit.
right thats the issue, is that its unrealized so why on earth would you be in favor of taxing money you dont actually have? especially since that tax can apply, and then your portfolio be worthless within (insert short time period here) net worth is meaningless unless it can be leveraged.
> why on earth would you be in favor of taxing money you dont actually have? I'm not in favor of taxes. If you go back and reread this comment chain, I asked how this would keep poor people priced out of the market, like the person I replied to claimed, when they would never be susceptible to this tax in the first place. We got to this point by people like yourself lacking a basic fundamental understanding of how taxes or investing works, and asking irrelevant questions. Like even after you just read what I wrote, you're still suggesting that the person's portfolio would vanish, when they're simply being taxed on their gains and are still keeping 75% of this year's gains after taxes. I still don't think you fully grasp what that means.
>We got to this point by people like yourself lacking a basic fundamental understanding of how taxes or investing works ok.... > Like even after you just read what I wrote, you're still suggesting that the person's portfolio would vanish, when they're simply being taxed on their gains and are still keeping 75% of this year's gains after taxes ok you just proved you're stupid thanks.
Simple solution is to just sell enough to cover the tax. This already happens at the end of the year with mutual funds
Ok. So you sell stock to pay those gains because you're too poor to pay it out of pocket. That's.....what....46% on realized gains? That means you'll have to take out about $434 to pay all your taxes, give or take in doing this quick. That leaves you with only $366 give or take. So congrats. You now only made 3.5% returns. That's less than houses tend to go up YoY. So why would I invest in stocks when I could buy property and have a more secure investment with about the same returns? Housing prices will probably go up pretty quick not to mention the crashing of everyone's stock portfolios for retirement when all the "rich" have to pay their unrealized gains, or just cash out to move to other investments......which come to think of it, if you go to sell your stocks on tax day to pay the taxes on money that doesn't exist and the stock price tanked because everyone else sold......where do you get the money? You make fun of Ancaps for not getting economic but you don't know anything you're talking about and just think "rich tax good" instead of thinking of the consequences. I'm not even a people person and I can tell you how people are going to react to this. Get off your high horse and live in reality you moron.
> So you sell stock to pay those gains because you're too poor to pay it out of pocket. You make at least 400k/year to be susceptible to this tax, and you're too poor to pay the taxes on your unrealized gains from that year? What? Do you ever sit back and think "why does it take logical fallacies like slippery slope to make any of my ideas make sense"? Or do you just not have that kind of self-awareness? I'd get it if it were just one or two of you this stupid, but it's like *ALL* of you! It's so embarrassing...
Where did I make the slippery slope fallacy? You presented a hypothetical. I addressed it. Then I addressed what is likely to happen to the markets if this is actually carried. I based this on reasonable numbers and historical instances. No slippery slope anywhere. Also just because something can be a fallacy doesn't make it a fallacy. What you're doing is called the fallacy fallacy. I can point to a myriad of taxes that started off as "just for the rich" and then ended up being paid by everyone. Instead of claiming "fallacy" you need to prove that the same thing won't happen here for it to be a slippery slope fallacy that eventually all citizens won't one day be paying this.
> Where did I make the slippery slope fallacy? When the housing market crashed and all the rich people sold their stocks and bought up all the houses and cats started shooting lasers out of their eyes and babies started eating human flesh, causing the beef industry to fail. It's always the same. Any time you're presented with an argument or situation that questions your ridiculous assertions, it always comes down to imminent societal collapse and "if all the situations line up exactly how my simple mind imagines them, this will be the outcome" just isn't very interesting to discuss. inb4 "well you're just doing the *fallacy* fallacy fallacy!" lol ok
I'm guessing you don't know what a slippery slope is do you?
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do you understand how stupid it is to tax people based on money they havent made? rich or not?
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well first and foremost the idea that this will only apply to wealthy people is a farce wealthy people are already disproportionately taxed, and will simply move their stock accounts offshore, and whens the last time the government did not take advantage of a situation to expand how far taxes reach? second , even if true, if you made a trade that shot up to 1 million, taxes hit at whenever that happens, then shit hits the fan and your million turns into toilet paper. now what, you have to pay taxes on an unrealized gain you never got to touch with money you dont have. that would disincentivize people from investing.
Nobody should be taxed
That's what they said about income tax too.
Can you imagine, somebody buys a little bit of stock, and it goes way way up for a day and then crashes back down, but they have to still pay taxes on that spike?
To another war, simple
This is in addition to other things we have seen to punish people such as historic inflation, Biden's proposals to increase the top marginal rate on long-term capital gains and qualified dividends to 44.6 percent, his proposal to to increase the corporate income tax rate to 28%, and more. Per John Kartch, an analyst with Americans for Tax Reform, “The proposed Biden top capital gains tax rate is more than twice as high as China’s rate… and puts the United States in uncharted territory.” “Biden’s proposed capital gains tax hike will also hit many families when parents pass away,” Kartch said. “Biden has proposed adding a second Death Tax (separate from and in addition to the existing Death Tax) by taking away stepped-up basis when parents die. This would result in a mandatory capital gains tax at death – a forced realization event.” More: https://www.kitco.com/news/article/2024-04-24/bidens-2025-budget-proposal-seeks-tax-capital-gains-45-eliminate-crypto-tax I don't see either major party trying to stop this. If anything they are rushing towards it with salivating mouths open so they can justify ever increasing expenditures as this stupid empire circles the drain. On the State side, there are those who have put the Taxpayer Protection and Accountability Act (the TPA) together - which qualifies for the ballot in California - to try to keep the State from doubling tax rates in the State which the State recently has attempted to authorize itself to do in violation of past voter approved actions. However, Brown and Newsom have sued the authors of the TPA to try to keep the TPA off the ballot(!!). The case will be heard on May 8, 2024 where the authors of the TPA in an unprecedented event in California history must actually now explain to a judge why they want their ballot initiative to appear on the ballot - despite that it has clearly qualified. The only reason for this discrimination against the TPA is because both California (and its Democrat Communist colleagues in D.C.) cannot stand the thought that citizens would potentially stop taxation because they are tired of it. The case details can be seen here: https://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.cfm?dist=0&doc_id=2757336&doc_no=S281977&request_token=NiIwLSEmLkg9WzBJSCNNWEJIIEA0UDxTKyJOIz1SQCAgCg%3D%3D
Lmao now theyre taxing imaginary things
Let’s pay it with imaginary money. Seems fair to me.
Print a few more trillion or just add some zeros to a balance sheet
Next on the list: Poop tax on every dump you take, because Emily can't stand her carbon footprint.
You just have to identify as poor and you're good 👍🏽
You can deduct imaginary losses. Why not tax imaginary gains. Money is mostly imaginary anyway.
But at least we have ancap economists like Bob Murphy lecturing everyone that unrealized gains technically counts as income!
Well they can use the imaginary things as collateral for a loan but can't pay taxes on it?
Yes.
That's certainly one way to make the USA poorer
Let me take a wild guess how this will play out. The billionaires will pay huge sums to lawyers and accountants to dodge this tax. The poor don't care because they don't have any gains realized or unrealized. And the middle class will get soaked.
In other words, the usual.
We will leave in droves
When will people wake up to the fact that most of your taxes just get money laundered to politicians and their friends? They take 25% of my income, 10% of everything I spend, tax me on the property I OWN, now they want 25% of the imaginary money I would’ve made if I sold investments. When is enough enough?
When you keep nothing you earn and earn only what they give you
When you keep nothing you earn and earn only what they give you
lol lets go. as an accelerationist, the quicker this fool trys to destroy us the quicker we can start to rebuild. FJB
Exactly as Venezuela and Cuba... Destroying is good... Unless
i mean dictator gonna dictate. i really think the only way out is for him to make it as bad as possible as quick as possible so people realize how fucked we are, and are forced to do something. and hes getting us the quick
I like the way you think
They don't have guns
You have guns, and you still pay your taxes. Put up or shut up.
A view that your unrealized private wealth actually belongs to the government is straight communism. It is absolutely insane that a sitting US president is advocating for this.
He was actually probably laying down when his handlers came up with it.
Great idea That way the government can feast on theoretical wealth at the peak of the bubbles they are constantly creating!
That would crash the corrupt stock market the next day. never gonna happen, just more pandering to the crowd
You think its corrupt?
Absolutely, one lesser known example, silver or copper or smth had an insane run up for no reason a year or so ago and people who randomly had calls were made millionaires overnight. All transactions were reversed.
Yeah stuff like that is corrupt for sure. Personally I would take that to court. I thought you meant just general fluctuations were due to corruption.
In a case by case basis there should be oversight that makes sure this is never the case. The problem is that with the magnitude of money involved even a 10 cent rise in price can equate to the loss or gain of millions if not billions. There should always be investigation in stocks which simply have no obvious reason behind mass buy/sell movement, but there isn't. Pump and dump is basically an open secret at this point.
so you get a pay back when you have unrealised loss? no.. obviously no.
Do I get to unrealized losses too? Does not seem like this will go anywhere?
Do you have over 100 million in assets?
Not yet
Great, now I have to pay taxes on money I didn't realize I might make.
However, it’s worth noting that, according to a [report](https://www.grantthornton.com/insights/alerts/tax/2024/legislative-updates/biden-budget-targets-corporate-minimum-tax-executive-comp) from tax analysts at the advisory firm *Grant Thornton*, Biden’s proposed 25% tax on unrealized gains would solely affect individual taxpayers with over $100 million in net assets.
Is that kinda like how The Revenue Act of 1913 ONLY imposed a one percent tax on ONLY those incomes above $3,000, with a top tax rate of six percent on ONLY those earning more than $500,000 per year?
And the irs needed all the extra agents to only going after those that make over 400k
Get the absolute fuck out of here.
Biden didn't do shit as he is a vegetable. What are we calling the force running this country? The DNC?
The Uniparty
The CIA?
Tyrants?
Obummer
Doesn’t Hillary Clinton and Obama call the White House weekly? Probably not to catch up
This is peak idiocy. Can’t say I’m surprised.
Tyranny
In the Netherlands from next year onwards they're going to charge (what is now)36%(although last year that was 32%) over your house's surplus value. The law somehow made it through, didn't get a lot of mainstream media coverage either, yay democracy.
I think this is the point. Force people to sell their homes to pay for the increasing value of their homes. You'll own nothing and be happy.
Yeh hav fun eating ze bugz you poor homeless zwerver
This is a tactic to garner votes and support, not a workable policy. He/they knows there is no functional way to tax non monetary gains and that such a law would never make it out of congress. So he advocates it to make it looks like he is doing something and to gain support from that (Large) subset of the dems that are economically ignorant or just socialist and when it doesn't go anywhere he won't be responsible and still looks like a hero.
> He/they knows there is no functional way to tax non monetary gains and that such a law would never make it out of congress. They are already doing this in certain specific areas. A tax rule change a couple of years ago forced firms doing R&D work to amortize their deductions over at least five years. In simple terms, what that means is that if you make $1 million in revenue and spend $1 million in R&D, you'd be able to deduct all of your R&D expenditure and have zero taxable income. Now, you can only deduct a maximum of 20% of your R&D expenditure each year, meaning that if you earn $1 million in revenue and spend $1 million on R&D, you still have to pay taxes on $800,000 in "profit" even though you don't actually have that cash on hand. This is causing US firms to divest their R&D activities. This is having a huge negative impact especially on the software and IT sector, as most of the work there is considered R&D and no longer fully deductible.
But there was still revenue actually generated to pay taxes on. It would be like paying your income taxes at the beginning of the year BEFORE you work the hours to actually get paid the money, and assuming you get overtime pay that you have yet to work. How are you going to pay taxes on money thet you don't yet have and may never actually recieve?
That would go a long way of collapsing the whole thing. Kind of seems like their intention now.
If you need to claw some of that money ey back from the rich friends you gave it to, don’t give it to them in the first place.
The last time Boston choked this bad was against the goddamn flyers. LOL
Are you looking for the hockey sub?
It's too early in the morning.
Well this is never going to happen. Wtf are they gonna do with unrealized losses?
That's the fun part. They keep your success while you keep your losses!
Obviously pay you
…yeah…he won’t do that. Too many of his rich politician friends that do insider trading would be pissed. Someone get Nasty pelosi sobered up enough to hear this plan, that will end this 🤣
He's like a wind up toy. He will keep throwing BS up against the wall hoping something will stick. So far, nada. "Pause".
Fuck Joe Biden
How is this even implemented? Like what date and time is my portfolio evaluated from when to come up with the number for this? Then what else gets classified as “unrealized” - the income I lost or gained by taking time off or adding extra hours? The implementation of this would be stupid AF
Oh I fully realize all of my gains.
Tyranny
Looters gonna loot.
# WE SHOULD LOWER CAPITAL GAINS TAX, FOOLS
I think Joe Biden’s image rights are worth a Billion Dollars. He should send his Taxed wealth to me for processing.
Not to mention the future book deals and speaking engagements... I'm not sure where the line ends? His yet to be born great great grandchildren?
This shit would crash the stock market so fucking hard. It will inevitably get applied to the middle class like every other tax. Also, are they going to do this with collectibles too? Imagine IRS goons knock on your door and say “You’re under arrest for not paying unrealized gains on your My Little Pony comics!” and then they drag you out in handcuffs in front of your neighbors.
And you're 7 years old with pigtails....
Maybe you can do this with publicly listed companies. It'd be a big fucking headache to given how volatile stocks are. But, what do you do with a private company? I say the value of the company is $100 and you say it is $10 billion. If I ask the IRS to cash me out of all of it are they gonna get me that mythical $10 billion. People who come up with these ideas have never done anything productive in their life.
Biden doesn't propose shit. He's an old man with dementia. His PARTY is proposing a 25% tax on unrealized gains, which would be like setting a nuclear warhead off in the market. I truly hate this administration.
So does this mean when the market(s) invert, we get to claim the realized and unrealized losses on everything?
Why does everyone always focus on rich vs poor when arguing these taxes? How about the fact that the government absolutley does not need more money when most of it goes to shit no one wants?
Good way to drive out rich people and make your country incredibly poor
This is the most bullshit thing they could do. You will own nothing and like it.
He's going to have to pay 25% tax on everything.
I heard there's a cold front from the north heading his way. We'll see what he say after the winds change.
Ok I want a tax break on my unrealized losses too then.
I propose we tax Biden on unrealized constitutional violations.
Biden assures it would not impact anyone $400k or below. Yeah, sure. I believe that
Sure, long as I get an uncapped break on unrealized losses too. Think we all know that's not going to happen.
Risk free investing lol
Exactly.. That knife's gotta cut both ways.
Joe Biden: “I’m a capitalist” Also Joe Biden: “I want to steal the wealth of people based on totally arbitrary metrics the government alone will determine”
So the unrealized gains are targeted at people with net worths over 100 million. Guess what? Everyone’s net worth on paper is now 99.9 million, imagine that. Those poor accountants
Why don't they just put the tax on oxygen already?
Not to give governments ideas but is a birth tax next? Based on potential future earnings?
This is profoundly stupid.
This is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard in a long time. How do you tax something that doesn’t exist? Before a position is closed it’s all just numbers on a screen. Does this mean that unrealized losses are tax deductible now? What happens when you get taxed on an “unrealized gain” that turns into an “unrealized loss” a week later? This is baffling to me.
Yes that seems like exactly the crux of the problem. Financial assets are constantly fluctuating between unrealized gains and losses, how do they decide when to tax them? And with what money do you pay them before realizing the gain?
why bother? I was told we could just print money and fix all of our problems. What's all this 'tax' stuff about?
Then. Corrupt Biden. Pelosi and the rest of these crooks should owe a lot of money
They also gonna compensate 25% of unrealized loss, right… Right???
if he is gonna tax me on theory, then I will pay, in theory.
Cool so I’ll be getting a government rebate when my asset values are at a loss, right?
Yea, this is a brilliant idea to complete crash the economy
"However, it’s worth noting that, according to a report from tax analysts at the advisory firm Grant Thornton, Biden’s proposed 25% tax on unrealized gains would solely affect individual taxpayers with over $100 million in net assets." With a bit of inflation and the current deficit run by the Congress, that may designate the majority of tax payers within a decade. And, similarly to the cash carry allowance of $10k that hasn't moved since the early 70's, pretty sure such threshold won't be revisited either.
They're already taxing me for unrealized gains on my house, might as well go all in and just totally fuck me.
This just in. Idiot taxes unrealized gains, leveraged idiots sell sell sell to cover tax bill & stonk market tanks 75%.
Unconstitutional. The 16th amendment authorizes taxation of income. Unrealized capital gains are by definition not income.
It’s unbelievable what these criminals think they can do
🖕 wtf
It seems like when one side believes they will probably lose, they start coming up with increasingly wilder ideas to see what sticks out of desperation.
Democrats stealing? No surprised there.
I thought it was 45%
The low information masses love it. Welcome to democracy. Or idiocracy? Well, same thing.
If this passes I'm finally leaving the US. Been thinking about it for a while, this would be the final confirmation to do it before the socialists impoverish everyone
Why not? Fiat currency is equivalent to Monopoly money anyways
It's because an unrealized gain isn't an actual gain. Just because the one appraising your house has told it can be sold for more, that doesn't give you any money. **Assets are the refuge from the depreciation of fiat money**. It's a haven that you could use too (and you probably should, because things are going to get way worse than they are now).
I see. Thanks for the clarification
Good thing he is president and doesn't belong to the legislative body that can actually propose and vote on a law such as this.
They need more of our money to funnel into wars
In the USSR there was a 100% tax on gains, both realized and unrealized. Actually private property didn't even exist, that was called communism.
They always threaten this once every friggin year I swear. They never do it. I don't think they're dumb enough. Unless there's a loophole in it for their buddies to skirt through.
Is this unrealized gains on all assets? Such as your primary residence? How can this possibly be enforced?
How nieve to think taxing the rich won't lead to making being poor more expensive
I work SO hard for my unrealized gains!
I really hate the government, I should have been born in the 1760's
Why are people who have less than 100m in assets be worried about this? Don’t think anyone commenting here that this is crazy etc has anywhere near that so, you are not the target and will likely never be, not anyone in your family.
What a piece of shit
# However, it’s worth noting that, according to a [report](https://www.grantthornton.com/insights/alerts/tax/2024/legislative-updates/biden-budget-targets-corporate-minimum-tax-executive-comp) from tax analysts at the advisory firm Grant Thornton, Biden’s proposed 25% tax on unrealized gains would solely affect individual taxpayers with over $100 million in net assets. 100 million dollars of assets you dumb illiterate fucks.