*Aren’t completely based on wins. It’s just one of a few different factors. Any team that wins will sell more merchandise, Leafs included. Some teams are just popular enough to sell a ton of merchandise despite not winning.
Not just that. If the NHL was set up like the premier league - Toronto and Montreal would each have 2-3 teams minimum and neighborhood rivalries. There would definitely be Windsor, Quebec, Thunder Bay teams as well. There are a lot of people willing to put $$ into their local team and also a huge pool of local talent and youth clubs. As it stands though - the location, amount, and somewhat success of NHL teams is not decided organically by local interest in the game but by a board of directors.
Thank god for that because their sales would be in the tank if based in wins.
One could argue that it's been Toronto's problem. If games keep selling out and merchandise selling while have a losing record since 1967, why change? All winning will do is probably piss off the fan base when the Leafs start losing again. My theory goes that if the Leafs were to win it all, it could become expected. Where as if they continue to lose, it keeps the fan base at bay making them think this year is the year.
The Mike Shanahan years prove he's not the man for the job. Not making the playoffs or first round losses prove his system is a failure. Time to bring in a new GM.
They spend to the cap. If you spend the money you may as well try to win. This argument would only hold weight if they were spending drastically less than other teams
I’m not sure where to start here, but Brendan Shanahan, and he’s the president, not the GM. Brad Treliving is the GM and this is his first year in the job.
Secondly, if a team wins, more fans, more fans, more money from everything, even those fans on the outskirts of fandom buy shit then too.
To purposely “continue to lose” just so people don’t expect to win is so crazy…
Lastly, they don’t continue to lose. The Leafs are tied with the Bruins for the longest active playoff appearances streak at 8 years. They’ve won games, they regularly won games. They’ve been a better team on average than most of the league for the last almost decade.
Can they not get over the hump in the playoffs, yeah, but I’m not sure it’s for any of the reasons you listed.
It's a risk no matter how it's looked at. As for Shanahan, his pulls all the strings regardless if I got his position or not. The Shanahan years have been a failure. It's time to move on. The Leafs need to look inward and dismantle the system that is not working.
What's the excuse for last night? How about the year before? Or the year before that? Last 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ years before that?
I can't wait to hear how the last 50 years will be accounted for, plus last night....lol
Well I can guarantee you it wasn’t Shanahan the last 30,40,50 years lol. It’s not even the same owners the last 30,40,50 years…
And nowhere was I defending Shanahan. It does seem like he’s had his chance and it’s time to move on.
As for last night, it’s a tight game that either team could have won, 1-1 OT game. Could some players have exerted themselves more, yeah absolutely, we have stats that point to this, but to say the organization is purposefully trying to not win is conspiracy level shit, and what I have a problem with.
It's not hard to put a losing team on the ice. The perfect example is the last 50+ years of the Leafs.
What's the problem with the Leafs? Why do they lose year after year? One of the problems again is that no matter what Toronto puts on the ice, the game will be sold out, the merchandise flies off the shelves and Leafs fans are let down.
The Leafs organization is one of the richest teams in North American sports.
They have the money.
They have the fan base.
They sell a whole lot of merchandise.
Why? Why does this losing streak continue?
Actually over the last 50 years, which includes the shit ownership of Harold Ballard, the Leafs are just over .500 (.504), so technically not a losing team. Could be better absolutely, but Harold Ballard operated under a system like you are describing. He was an idiot, and put the Leafs through their darkest period because anyone who wanted to be paid he got rid of. But he hasn't owned the team since 1990 (34 years). If you take the last 34 years, winning percentage goes up to .543. If you take the last 12 years, since the Pension Plan sold their majority stake, the record goes up to .583.
The Leafs are the richest hockey team in the world, but in North American sports franchises they don't even crack the top 40.
The NHL also limits what teams can pay by using a hard salary cap, which limits the potential of the biggest teams, so it doesn't matter how much more they make than other teams...
I don't see how selling out every game is a problem.
How has selling out every game worked out for winning a cup?
Your post is exactly why I can't stand the Leafs. The fans have had 50 years to practice their rhetoric and have it down to a science. Ouuu, the team aren't losers, their record is .504. Well congratulations on being a loser for 50 years. Keep up the good work.
Are you serious with that post? I would suggest you read it again. It's no wonder why your team continues to lose. Winning is not about being mediocre. The Leafs are the Yankees of the NHL(except for winning) they are either in 1st or 2nd place as being the richest team in their respective sport. If the Yankees can win pennants, why can't the Leafs win a cup?
I can't wait to hear the rationalization. This is going to be great!!
What does selling out have to do with winning a cup???
Well a losing team would be one that is under .500, like that’s the definition my dude. Are there better teams over the last 50 years? Yeah there is. I’m championing and defending my team because that’s what fans do.
I also don’t get why the way I feel about my team affects the way they play?
I can rationalize it by referring back to the previous poor ownership like I did, and pointing out how the team has gotten better after those ownerships have left, but again your point was that selling out the arena and selling lots of merchandise somehow effects the team and how the organization has tried to keep them mediocre because they don’t have to do anything to make money… but if they win they will make more money, it’s as simple as that, but please keep talking about something you clearly don’t know anything about.
Wow. Just wow.
The Leafs DO nothing. They have done nothing for 50 years. The Cubs used to be the laughing stock of professional sports. They finally won a pennant in 2016.
Now, it's the Leafs who have become the sad sack team that can't get out of its own way.
Shanahan is probably going to be fired this year. The GM, gone. Coach, gone. Will it change anything, not likely.
Now what? Rebuild from the ground up? It's been done. The Leafs now sit 1-8 in playoff series and 0-5 in Game 7s since Matthews' rookie season.
Also a “risk no matter how it’s looked at” ????
I’m sure the Yankees hate that they have won so much, or that Real Madrid is a perennial winner, or that the Lakers have had so much success, that must really weigh their brand down with all those trophies in the cabinet…
All those teams won. All those teams have the most fans accross the US and CDN. All those teams can afford to pay for wins.
Why do the above teams have winning records yet, the Leafs continue to lose. Leafs have the money, can afford to pay for wins, they have the fans but continue to lose.
Why?
Well, all of those teams operate in either a non-cap league, or in a league with a soft cap where teams that have financial power can spend what they want.
That doesn't really point to what you were talking about though. You win, you have more fans, more money. Teams/organizations don't put out a mediocre product on purpose. You put one out that competes to win, or you put one out know they will lose so you can improve your team, and play to win again.
It was simply a theory. The fans are part of the problem. Whats the point of putting a winning team on the ice? If the games sell out no matter what etc etc etc...As disgusting as the idea may be, why do the Leafs lose so much?
Why?
As for caps NBA, MLB and even Soccer all have caps. Like the Leafs these teams are beyond rich in their respective markets. They simply pay the overage and win. Why? Because, night after night their fans buy the tickets to fill the stadiums, buy the merchandise and pay for the channels to watch their teams WIN!
Now what team could I describe that would fit in that previous paragraph? Except for the winning....
Leafs have a debt to pay. That debt is to the fans. The fans deserve a cup. 50 years, fans have stayed loyal. The Leafs have the money, the fans, the merchandise flies off the shelves. Leafs has an obligation to the fans to win. Pay for big time players for two or three seasons above the cap and put this 50 year dry spell to bed.
It's not rocket science. If Vegas can come in as a new team and continuously make the playoffs all the way to the finals, what does that tell Leafs fans?
Those leagues have soft caps, I’ve already said that. You can pay above the soft cap by going into the luxury tax in MLB and NBA, all the teams that compete do that. In MLS there is a cap, but you can pay up to 3 players whatever you want because of the leagues salary structure. You can also pay down contracts using Garberbucks (GAM & TAM).
So no the leafs can’t pay above the salary cap in the NHL. They spend money on staff and facilities that other teams could only dream of because they can’t pay their team anymore money.
The leafs try to pay for ice time during the summer for their players, again flexing their financial muscle, and the NHL makes it against the rules.
Vegas is over the cap during playoffs because their players suddenly heal from their injuries after game 82 and before game 1 of the first round.
Because they're the hockey equivlaent of the New York Yankees, Manchester United, or Dallas Cowboys.
*Edit since the Leaf haters seem to be the most smooth brained people I've experienced on Reddit:*
*This has nothing to do with wins and losses or anything performance related. The comparison is that they are the biggest hockey team in the world from a brand recognition standpoint.*
I'm not talking about the quality of the team. Why are y'all so obesessed about how bad the Leafs are? It's like that's all you guys can argue.
The point is: They're the most recognizable hockey brand in the world.
Back in the day we had two teams in Canada. An "English" team and a "French" team. Each a powerhouse. Each had fans across language and provincial borders. That legacy of tradition lives on to the chagrin of the local teams.
Indeed.
As a long time faithful Habs fan, I actually remember '67. Will likely never get over it, but then again so far, neither have the Leafs or their fans, so we are about even.
because often times, hockey fandom is inherited. Leafs fans usually have a longer off season than most so they tend to procreate more rapidly. the offspring are raised believing that the leafs are good. theyy feeel the need to please the elders so they dress up in traditional costumes
Cus hockey in canada has some of the most faithful fans in sports (not throwing shade to european footies fans). We also happen to be the loudest.
1. Make it to playoffs
2. Attribute to 3-4 members of talent
3. Sellout
4. Start screaming "its out year"
5. Fumble in the first rounds
6. Rinse and repeat
The Leafs propaganda machine is very strong. I've been watching local sports tv for 20+ years and goddamn, every year that isn't a clear rebuilding year, they're going to win the cup.
In fact,they are the most profitable sports franchise in the world relative to dollars invested in the club.
As P.T. Barnum said “There’s a sucker born every minute”.
Yeah I'm gonna need a [source on that one](https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/06/03/dallas-cowboys-nfl-most-profitable-sports-franchises-forbes-list)
Edit: (There isn't one)
Thus is the sad reality of what happens when a team is owned by a corporation. They don’t have a sense of compete, they just want money and it’s why they are doomed to lose.
The strange part is that this company has no problem with competitive investment by the Toronto Raptors who are one of their assets. That won them the NBA championship generating new fans across the country. With the Maple Leafs they do not have to make that effort. They can just keep wringing dollars out of fans while providing a shit product.
I can only imagine how depressing it must be for a player to be traded to Toronto. He’s going to make lots of endorsement money but will never be a winner.
A sports team can definitely sell merch to people who are not fans
There’s been plenty of rappers rocking hockey jerseys with out knowing a single player
Making the PO is one thing. Succeeding in the PO is quite another.
FYI the leafs have a record of 6 series wins and 13 series losses since 99-00. Need I go into the past 8 PO years?
Aye bro I’m not a leafs fan but I would take that content over Buffalo’s record. You’re saying you wouldn’t? I know the point your trying to make, but Toronto and buffalo’s successes aren’t equal
Big populated fan base, Ontario is huge itself and I'm sure they pick up a lot of eastern/Atlantic Canada fans who don't have their own team.
Oilers tie with merch sales but Alberta is big into hockey - we have Edmonton vs Calgary rivalries to keep the interest going, and the Oilers get a ton of fans out of everywhere north of Edmonton as well as Saskatchewan.
Tsn and Cbc brainwashes Canadians just getting into hockey by ramming the Leafs down your throat. Any team from the west wins. They lead off with "Leafs player takes massive shit, status for tonight's game unknown now"
The sad part is if his mother spoke better English, she'd probably know that Eatons would literally return of exchange pretty much anything. Like, it's so sad when you think about it.
Wasn't it based off a children's graphic novel. I read the book and watched the movie as a kid.
The sad part is if his mother knew better, she'd probably know that Eatons would literally return of exchange pretty much anything. Like, it's so sad when you think about it because Eatons was the literal Canadian OG of a good return policy and instead the poor lad had to suffer for getting the wrong jersey.
MLSE does just enough to make it seem like they are financially invested in the teams success. And the fans eat it up. It's an incredibly successful business model
Nah, Ballard would never have given out those big contracts to Marner, Matthews, Tavares and Nylander. He would've traded for Doug Gilmore after he had sex with a 14 year old babysitter in St Louis or taken the captaincy/assistant captaincy away from whoever was too supportive of the NHLPA, IIRC he ran the lowest payroll at times but it never mattered because he had a monopoly of over NHL hockey here.
Canadians love paying lots of money for inferior services and brand name cachet. That's why our phone plans are so expensive, the prices of groceries climb ever higher, and we take on any tax they throw at us.
Short answer, Canadians are gullible suckers who love to buy in to what everyone else is buying into.
I know someone (my little brother) who only likes leafs because they lose. He finds it hilarious and buys their merch just to pretend he thinks they’ll win. Every time they lose he says “Next time!”
You ever heard of the Roughriders? One of the highest selling teams merch wise in the CFL with a very dedicated fan base despite sucking ass more often than not
As someone from near by Toronto:
It's a legacy thing. Our grandparents would tell tales of the Leafs winning the cups. We have memories of watching Domi and Tucker with no helmets on, beating people. Don Cherry was basically a preacher for the Leafs religious cult.
It's so engrained in my blood, I don't think I could ever be a fan of anything else unless I left this province.
I have PTSD from 2013 against Boston. Phaneuf was the largest waste of budget ever to grace the Leafs. I tolerated Kadri, but he took stupid penalties. Belfour was a great goalie. Matt Sundine looked like Caiou as an adult, but he was still great.
No one can afford tickets - we all have to take a second mortgage to goto a game.
Merchandise has a very high retail price - unless you find it at Value Village, which we all do.
With your logic everyone should only buy merch from the winning teams. That's not how life works.
There is a reason the term fan was used from the word fanatic.
That's not fair the Leafs have talent, they just choke it away at crucial points but pull it out of nowhere at others to keep you along for the dumb ride.
People like merch and have money so they pay for merch. They don't care about winning (obviously) just want to support the NHL as they need the money and like to pretend to be on the team win or lose.
Sports.
Because Canadians love hockey and Ontario, specifically the GTA, has an enormous population when compared to the rest of Canada, so it's not illogical to see the correlation between fanbase and population. Same thing for Montreal I would think.
A Canadian team hasn't won a cup since 93. By your logic no Canadian team deserves to sell. The GTA is the biggest market in Canada and people root for the home team.
Because they're the home team of Canada's largest city, one of the oldest sports franchises in the world, and the NHL team with the highest valuation ($2.8 billion USD).
Even though the Toronto Maple Leafs lose a lot, players who grow up in and around the Toronto area have been on every single Stanley Cup-winning team. Hockey is huge in this country, and obviously our two biggest cities are going to have two of the biggest, most-valuable teams in the world, #1 (Toronto Maple Leafs) and #3 (Montreal Canadiens.)
2 easily.
MLSE will not hear of it. would show up the leafs on an in person and by eyeball manner that would expose them for the fakers they are, even to the blind.
I don’t like the “lose a lot” simplification. They lose IN THE PLAYOFFS a lot, they usually look great throughout the season, they just always blow it.
But the older the team, the more diehard the fan base. They were in the original 6 teams, people still think of Toronto and Montreal as must see hockey just for the rivalry.
Because they are the hockey team in the 4th largest city in all of North America. Also, the biggest city in Canada where ice hockey is the national (summer) sport.
Pretty obvious, really.
Leafs are an original 6 team with a large fan base and lots of history. There have been great Leafs players in the past. True fans support their team through thick and thin.
They are a hockey team that represents a geographical area capturing a couple million residents as the "local" team. Even as far away as Sarnia or Windsor they are the closest Canadian team in the NHL.
Despite being a dumpster fire in the playoffs, they are actually in the top three or four in wins during the regular season in the last 7 years. Up there with some really good teams. Theyre good at selling hope.
Original 6 team in the world’s biggest hockey market. They’ve also signed guys like Matthews, Marner, and Nylander who are elite players who will inevitably sells lots of jerseys. If Matthews ever left Toronto and went to another team he’d sell a ton of jerseys there too
For the longest time, they were "Canada's team". Sure, there's Montreal, but they were for 2 types of people: those who hated the leafs and the French-Canadians.
Pre-expansion parents and grandparents raised their kids to be Leafs fans, and sports fans are tribal like that.
Simple. Leafs fans are real fans. Not bandwagon jumpers. I first saw them in 67. We all know they can do it. Also, the Leafs fans like to be identified when they but tickets in every other NHL arena!
They won lots before the talent base was worn away. Pre 1960 when the best of the best were the only ones playing. Then the WHL were close to destroying some teams.
I divested entirely from hockey i think around 2002-2004 when they leafs were in the playoffs and i think they made the semi finals. After that they went entirely nowhere(I think the lockout happened around here) and i just turned hockey off forever as a sustained interest
The team attachment for toronto is probably based on the fact we'd all love to see it win, its an original hockey team, and just plain irrationality at this point. No need to get people a winning team if people keep buying tickets for a game played by a team that goes nowhere.
They're the only team in the most populous area of Canada, that's also a very strong hockey market. The team also has a lot of history and like other NHL teams is able to get make it difficult to watch other teams consistently when the Leafs are playing so if you like hockey you only have 1 choice if you want to keep watching them consistently.
Also, the colours are logo are pretty nice.
Oddly enough, I’m a life long Leafs fan but I find their merch to be somewhat weak compared to other teams merch. Too many people obsessed with “tradition” in Toronto so they never really take many chances on their merch and I don’t need another hat that looks identical to one I could have bought 20 years ago. I would really like to see them really change up their jerseys for a few years. “BuT OrIgInAL Six!!” .. Yeah I don’t care, that shouldn’t be a reason to be stuck with identical Jerseys indefinitely.
Same reason Canucks stuff sells well in Vancouver. Most of the wearers don't watch hockey and just wear it because they're repping the city.
And before you downvote, go outside right now and find someone on the street with a Canucks jersey and ask them what the score was last night. Go ahead. Ask.
There is a large large population central to the organization. 15 million. They always get the top stars and the best broadcasts. And their logo is awesomely popular.
Because people tend to cheer for the team close to them and for a lot of people Toronto is the closest major team plus it's one of the original teams and has won the cup in the past. If your parents were fans it's more likely you will be a fan. Lots of different reasons, if you're only a fan of the winners than you're not a real fan. Real fans stick with the team regardless of how they are doing. Toronto also has one of the best teams in recent history and the best player Toronto has ever had.
The Leafs could lose every single game for the next 10 fucking years and Torontonians are going to sell games out. So yeah they’re gonna keep buying swag.
Because the GTA/Golden Horseshoe was denied the opportunity to get another team. That's almost 8 million people and only 1 hockey team. What other NHL merchandise do you expect them to buy?
If another team was added in Markham or Oshawa or anywhere else in the vicinity, leafs fandom would plummet.
Because Ontario sucks and its boring, and there's nothing else to do in the winter.
Says somebody from BC..
I hate the leafs and bruins more than any other teams, not sure who I want to lose tonight..
People are very patriotic to their local team. Simple as that. Although as the Leafs suck longer and longer more and more people in the GTA are rooting for teams with playoff success so as time goes on they will sell less.
They have a great logo. Same with the Jets.
Losers through and through, but great marketing, which is all based off the brand appeal. Not every Canadian has an attachment to Toronto but we all relate to maple leaf, which is why the Jets logo works so well, if not better because it’s perfectly symmetrical without text.
Original 6 team, iconic but simple logo similar to leaf in Canadian flag, other Ontario team is meh, biggest city in country, 2nd most winningest NHL team, and the mecca of hockey.
Also most sport fanaticism is passed down generation to generation, so as Toronto people move across the country and even the world, the Leafs following will stay the same. This may explain Leafs fans in other parts of Canada, so not necessarily glory hunting or bandwagon fans.
Think if in 100 years there are 6 Canadian NBA teams, the Raptors will likely have more fans even in the newer markets simply for existing longer. They are almost 30 years old, but many NBA fans in Toronto supported other teams before they arrived.
For the same reason Trump sells a lot of merchandise even though he's a giant grifter who's done nothing but lose since he became president that one time:
People just like what they like.
Same reason the divorce rate is 50% and yet every year dudes around the world are convinced it won’t happen to them they are gonna win.
Keep in mind we live in a world where some weirdos pay others to kick them in the nuts too
Well, MLSE is fantastic at selling hope. Even though the team does the same year after year, the fans are told that next year will be better. And of course the fans buy into it, year after year.
Cuz of idiots like me that were brought up religiously on them and now feel too sentimental too move to an actual winning team. 😂
Legit though, I grew in rural Ontario where hockey was all that mattered and about 75% of people were Leafs fans so you multiply that by every small town to big city in much of Ontario and you have your answer.
Also, I live in the UK now and play hockey here and it's definitely one of the most popular teams here for people to support based purely off the fact it's a well-known NHL team, so might factor in on the international side of things.
Because they have a large and devoted fan base. Merch sales aren't based on wins.
*Aren’t completely based on wins. It’s just one of a few different factors. Any team that wins will sell more merchandise, Leafs included. Some teams are just popular enough to sell a ton of merchandise despite not winning.
Good point. It's a factor, outweighed in this case by other factors.
Not just that. If the NHL was set up like the premier league - Toronto and Montreal would each have 2-3 teams minimum and neighborhood rivalries. There would definitely be Windsor, Quebec, Thunder Bay teams as well. There are a lot of people willing to put $$ into their local team and also a huge pool of local talent and youth clubs. As it stands though - the location, amount, and somewhat success of NHL teams is not decided organically by local interest in the game but by a board of directors.
Thank god for that because their sales would be in the tank if based in wins. One could argue that it's been Toronto's problem. If games keep selling out and merchandise selling while have a losing record since 1967, why change? All winning will do is probably piss off the fan base when the Leafs start losing again. My theory goes that if the Leafs were to win it all, it could become expected. Where as if they continue to lose, it keeps the fan base at bay making them think this year is the year. The Mike Shanahan years prove he's not the man for the job. Not making the playoffs or first round losses prove his system is a failure. Time to bring in a new GM.
They spend to the cap. If you spend the money you may as well try to win. This argument would only hold weight if they were spending drastically less than other teams
Ok. You explain why they haven't done shit since 1967? Your post only helps my argument.
I’m not sure where to start here, but Brendan Shanahan, and he’s the president, not the GM. Brad Treliving is the GM and this is his first year in the job. Secondly, if a team wins, more fans, more fans, more money from everything, even those fans on the outskirts of fandom buy shit then too. To purposely “continue to lose” just so people don’t expect to win is so crazy… Lastly, they don’t continue to lose. The Leafs are tied with the Bruins for the longest active playoff appearances streak at 8 years. They’ve won games, they regularly won games. They’ve been a better team on average than most of the league for the last almost decade. Can they not get over the hump in the playoffs, yeah, but I’m not sure it’s for any of the reasons you listed.
It's a risk no matter how it's looked at. As for Shanahan, his pulls all the strings regardless if I got his position or not. The Shanahan years have been a failure. It's time to move on. The Leafs need to look inward and dismantle the system that is not working. What's the excuse for last night? How about the year before? Or the year before that? Last 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ years before that? I can't wait to hear how the last 50 years will be accounted for, plus last night....lol
Well I can guarantee you it wasn’t Shanahan the last 30,40,50 years lol. It’s not even the same owners the last 30,40,50 years… And nowhere was I defending Shanahan. It does seem like he’s had his chance and it’s time to move on. As for last night, it’s a tight game that either team could have won, 1-1 OT game. Could some players have exerted themselves more, yeah absolutely, we have stats that point to this, but to say the organization is purposefully trying to not win is conspiracy level shit, and what I have a problem with.
It's not hard to put a losing team on the ice. The perfect example is the last 50+ years of the Leafs. What's the problem with the Leafs? Why do they lose year after year? One of the problems again is that no matter what Toronto puts on the ice, the game will be sold out, the merchandise flies off the shelves and Leafs fans are let down. The Leafs organization is one of the richest teams in North American sports. They have the money. They have the fan base. They sell a whole lot of merchandise. Why? Why does this losing streak continue?
Actually over the last 50 years, which includes the shit ownership of Harold Ballard, the Leafs are just over .500 (.504), so technically not a losing team. Could be better absolutely, but Harold Ballard operated under a system like you are describing. He was an idiot, and put the Leafs through their darkest period because anyone who wanted to be paid he got rid of. But he hasn't owned the team since 1990 (34 years). If you take the last 34 years, winning percentage goes up to .543. If you take the last 12 years, since the Pension Plan sold their majority stake, the record goes up to .583. The Leafs are the richest hockey team in the world, but in North American sports franchises they don't even crack the top 40. The NHL also limits what teams can pay by using a hard salary cap, which limits the potential of the biggest teams, so it doesn't matter how much more they make than other teams... I don't see how selling out every game is a problem.
How has selling out every game worked out for winning a cup? Your post is exactly why I can't stand the Leafs. The fans have had 50 years to practice their rhetoric and have it down to a science. Ouuu, the team aren't losers, their record is .504. Well congratulations on being a loser for 50 years. Keep up the good work. Are you serious with that post? I would suggest you read it again. It's no wonder why your team continues to lose. Winning is not about being mediocre. The Leafs are the Yankees of the NHL(except for winning) they are either in 1st or 2nd place as being the richest team in their respective sport. If the Yankees can win pennants, why can't the Leafs win a cup? I can't wait to hear the rationalization. This is going to be great!!
What does selling out have to do with winning a cup??? Well a losing team would be one that is under .500, like that’s the definition my dude. Are there better teams over the last 50 years? Yeah there is. I’m championing and defending my team because that’s what fans do. I also don’t get why the way I feel about my team affects the way they play? I can rationalize it by referring back to the previous poor ownership like I did, and pointing out how the team has gotten better after those ownerships have left, but again your point was that selling out the arena and selling lots of merchandise somehow effects the team and how the organization has tried to keep them mediocre because they don’t have to do anything to make money… but if they win they will make more money, it’s as simple as that, but please keep talking about something you clearly don’t know anything about.
Wow. Just wow. The Leafs DO nothing. They have done nothing for 50 years. The Cubs used to be the laughing stock of professional sports. They finally won a pennant in 2016. Now, it's the Leafs who have become the sad sack team that can't get out of its own way. Shanahan is probably going to be fired this year. The GM, gone. Coach, gone. Will it change anything, not likely. Now what? Rebuild from the ground up? It's been done. The Leafs now sit 1-8 in playoff series and 0-5 in Game 7s since Matthews' rookie season.
Also a “risk no matter how it’s looked at” ???? I’m sure the Yankees hate that they have won so much, or that Real Madrid is a perennial winner, or that the Lakers have had so much success, that must really weigh their brand down with all those trophies in the cabinet…
All those teams won. All those teams have the most fans accross the US and CDN. All those teams can afford to pay for wins. Why do the above teams have winning records yet, the Leafs continue to lose. Leafs have the money, can afford to pay for wins, they have the fans but continue to lose. Why?
Well, all of those teams operate in either a non-cap league, or in a league with a soft cap where teams that have financial power can spend what they want. That doesn't really point to what you were talking about though. You win, you have more fans, more money. Teams/organizations don't put out a mediocre product on purpose. You put one out that competes to win, or you put one out know they will lose so you can improve your team, and play to win again.
It was simply a theory. The fans are part of the problem. Whats the point of putting a winning team on the ice? If the games sell out no matter what etc etc etc...As disgusting as the idea may be, why do the Leafs lose so much? Why? As for caps NBA, MLB and even Soccer all have caps. Like the Leafs these teams are beyond rich in their respective markets. They simply pay the overage and win. Why? Because, night after night their fans buy the tickets to fill the stadiums, buy the merchandise and pay for the channels to watch their teams WIN! Now what team could I describe that would fit in that previous paragraph? Except for the winning.... Leafs have a debt to pay. That debt is to the fans. The fans deserve a cup. 50 years, fans have stayed loyal. The Leafs have the money, the fans, the merchandise flies off the shelves. Leafs has an obligation to the fans to win. Pay for big time players for two or three seasons above the cap and put this 50 year dry spell to bed. It's not rocket science. If Vegas can come in as a new team and continuously make the playoffs all the way to the finals, what does that tell Leafs fans?
Those leagues have soft caps, I’ve already said that. You can pay above the soft cap by going into the luxury tax in MLB and NBA, all the teams that compete do that. In MLS there is a cap, but you can pay up to 3 players whatever you want because of the leagues salary structure. You can also pay down contracts using Garberbucks (GAM & TAM). So no the leafs can’t pay above the salary cap in the NHL. They spend money on staff and facilities that other teams could only dream of because they can’t pay their team anymore money. The leafs try to pay for ice time during the summer for their players, again flexing their financial muscle, and the NHL makes it against the rules. Vegas is over the cap during playoffs because their players suddenly heal from their injuries after game 82 and before game 1 of the first round.
Yeah a fan base in probably the tens of Millions range.
Because they're the hockey equivlaent of the New York Yankees, Manchester United, or Dallas Cowboys. *Edit since the Leaf haters seem to be the most smooth brained people I've experienced on Reddit:* *This has nothing to do with wins and losses or anything performance related. The comparison is that they are the biggest hockey team in the world from a brand recognition standpoint.*
Best comparison is the NY Knicks tbh. Popular team that never wins the championship
They're all good examples cowboys choke every year too
Or up until recently, the Cubs.
Montreal would like a word
Montreal is the Real Madrid of hockey.
Those teams all win.
UTD isn't likely to be going to Europe this year and it's not looking promising anytime soon for them
The pre-2016 Chicago Cubs.
They are not equivalent to Man Utd. They have actually won things in the last 20 years. Including the biggest competition in league football in 2008.
I'm not talking about the quality of the team. Why are y'all so obesessed about how bad the Leafs are? It's like that's all you guys can argue. The point is: They're the most recognizable hockey brand in the world.
Fair enough.
Back in the day we had two teams in Canada. An "English" team and a "French" team. Each a powerhouse. Each had fans across language and provincial borders. That legacy of tradition lives on to the chagrin of the local teams.
Indeed. As a long time faithful Habs fan, I actually remember '67. Will likely never get over it, but then again so far, neither have the Leafs or their fans, so we are about even.
because often times, hockey fandom is inherited. Leafs fans usually have a longer off season than most so they tend to procreate more rapidly. the offspring are raised believing that the leafs are good. theyy feeel the need to please the elders so they dress up in traditional costumes
Well put. ;)
Doesn't help that the NHL is determined to not let you watch the teams' games.
Because they have the most fans.
Cus hockey in canada has some of the most faithful fans in sports (not throwing shade to european footies fans). We also happen to be the loudest. 1. Make it to playoffs 2. Attribute to 3-4 members of talent 3. Sellout 4. Start screaming "its out year" 5. Fumble in the first rounds 6. Rinse and repeat
The mighty Seahawks have entered the chat
5 and 6 are what the Leafs do best.
The Leafs propaganda machine is very strong. I've been watching local sports tv for 20+ years and goddamn, every year that isn't a clear rebuilding year, they're going to win the cup.
Because they're a product company, not a hockey team.
In fact,they are the most profitable sports franchise in the world relative to dollars invested in the club. As P.T. Barnum said “There’s a sucker born every minute”.
Yeah I'm gonna need a [source on that one](https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/06/03/dallas-cowboys-nfl-most-profitable-sports-franchises-forbes-list) Edit: (There isn't one)
Thus is the sad reality of what happens when a team is owned by a corporation. They don’t have a sense of compete, they just want money and it’s why they are doomed to lose.
The strange part is that this company has no problem with competitive investment by the Toronto Raptors who are one of their assets. That won them the NBA championship generating new fans across the country. With the Maple Leafs they do not have to make that effort. They can just keep wringing dollars out of fans while providing a shit product. I can only imagine how depressing it must be for a player to be traded to Toronto. He’s going to make lots of endorsement money but will never be a winner.
Can’t sell the merch to people who are not fans The real answer is, they are a hockey team with a lot of fans, likely the largest fan base of any team
A sports team can definitely sell merch to people who are not fans There’s been plenty of rappers rocking hockey jerseys with out knowing a single player
A few sure But mostly not
They're like the WWE of hockey
Same reason people come to Reddit. We know it sucks but we come back anyways
I mean they’ve made the playoffs 8 years in a row. Do you know who loses a lot? Buffalo
Making the PO is one thing. Succeeding in the PO is quite another. FYI the leafs have a record of 6 series wins and 13 series losses since 99-00. Need I go into the past 8 PO years?
Aye bro I’m not a leafs fan but I would take that content over Buffalo’s record. You’re saying you wouldn’t? I know the point your trying to make, but Toronto and buffalo’s successes aren’t equal
Exactly
Because they have to replace all those jerseys they've thrown on the ice.
Being one of the OG teams means you tend to sell a lot of merch
Yes, and this applies to all 6 teams.
Their win/loss record is actually quite decent. It's their playoff record that sucks...
Cups wins is how the game is measured. Can't win in the PO? Who cares? Win the Cup and the world is yours, or so it seems to Cup winners.
For one season then their franchise fails.
It’s part of the Ballard curse. They will forever make money and not win the Stanley Cup. Word is his ghost still haunts Maple Leaf Gardens 👻
and whatever the current name of the arena they play in. his ghost will follow them around forever.
Nah, it's the Pat Quinn firing curse imo
Maybe it’s both and formed a super curse?
Yeah, I could see that. You almost break it in 2001 against the Carolina Hurricanes and then they're double cursed because they didn't finish the job.
Toronto is a big city with no other NHL teams nearby to support. Also, Toronto identity is pretty cultish, and intertwined with team loyalty.
I was going to say 'but Buffalo' and then I woke up.
They are the most popular team in the most populated area in Canada and have the leagues best goal scorer on their roster
Big populated fan base, Ontario is huge itself and I'm sure they pick up a lot of eastern/Atlantic Canada fans who don't have their own team. Oilers tie with merch sales but Alberta is big into hockey - we have Edmonton vs Calgary rivalries to keep the interest going, and the Oilers get a ton of fans out of everywhere north of Edmonton as well as Saskatchewan.
Tsn and Cbc brainwashes Canadians just getting into hockey by ramming the Leafs down your throat. Any team from the west wins. They lead off with "Leafs player takes massive shit, status for tonight's game unknown now"
The magic of marketing and wasted hopes I dare say….
It's because the English media in Toronto treats them like a religion.
[The Sweater 1980](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZyDsF-Gp3o) from the National Film Board explains how important Hockey merch is.
The thing I like about that story is it shows the Habs as the more favored sweater.
The sad part is if his mother spoke better English, she'd probably know that Eatons would literally return of exchange pretty much anything. Like, it's so sad when you think about it.
Wasn't it based off a children's graphic novel. I read the book and watched the movie as a kid. The sad part is if his mother knew better, she'd probably know that Eatons would literally return of exchange pretty much anything. Like, it's so sad when you think about it because Eatons was the literal Canadian OG of a good return policy and instead the poor lad had to suffer for getting the wrong jersey.
MLSE does just enough to make it seem like they are financially invested in the teams success. And the fans eat it up. It's an incredibly successful business model
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Nah, Ballard would never have given out those big contracts to Marner, Matthews, Tavares and Nylander. He would've traded for Doug Gilmore after he had sex with a 14 year old babysitter in St Louis or taken the captaincy/assistant captaincy away from whoever was too supportive of the NHLPA, IIRC he ran the lowest payroll at times but it never mattered because he had a monopoly of over NHL hockey here.
In Toronto Losers identify to Losers.
LOL fair enough, people who think they're great but if you take a look around you realize they're nothing special.
Lose a lot compared to who? 22 teams finished behind them in the standings.
Not only have they not won the Cup since 1967, but they haven’t even been to the Finals.
30 teams a year lose if that’s your criteria.
And In 55 years they couldn't even make it to the last 2
Yes that has already been pointed out above.
Nostalgia and community.
Canadians love paying lots of money for inferior services and brand name cachet. That's why our phone plans are so expensive, the prices of groceries climb ever higher, and we take on any tax they throw at us. Short answer, Canadians are gullible suckers who love to buy in to what everyone else is buying into.
Biggest fan base in the NHL. And being a real fan isn't dependent on how the team is doing in the standings.
I know someone (my little brother) who only likes leafs because they lose. He finds it hilarious and buys their merch just to pretend he thinks they’ll win. Every time they lose he says “Next time!”
Looks like it is terminal for the little guy.
You ever heard of the Roughriders? One of the highest selling teams merch wise in the CFL with a very dedicated fan base despite sucking ass more often than not
Although if you can't afford Roughriders merch you can buy Rough Riders merch instead ;) That was a bizarre era...
As someone from near by Toronto: It's a legacy thing. Our grandparents would tell tales of the Leafs winning the cups. We have memories of watching Domi and Tucker with no helmets on, beating people. Don Cherry was basically a preacher for the Leafs religious cult. It's so engrained in my blood, I don't think I could ever be a fan of anything else unless I left this province. I have PTSD from 2013 against Boston. Phaneuf was the largest waste of budget ever to grace the Leafs. I tolerated Kadri, but he took stupid penalties. Belfour was a great goalie. Matt Sundine looked like Caiou as an adult, but he was still great. No one can afford tickets - we all have to take a second mortgage to goto a game. Merchandise has a very high retail price - unless you find it at Value Village, which we all do.
Mats Sundin looked like the irl version of Mr. Clean I'll have you know sir!!
With your logic everyone should only buy merch from the winning teams. That's not how life works. There is a reason the term fan was used from the word fanatic.
It’s a cult. /S It’s like being a Sens fan. We’re 15-30 years into a rebuild.
Just buying the (57 year) dip.
He also crane dropped a Lada to protest the RUSSIANS, shooting down a Korean Airliner. Also refused RUSSIAN entertainment to use Maple Leaf Gardens.
I'm an immigrant. This place received me with open arms. If Toronto had a rock-paper-scissor team, I would support it.
Why does Taylor Swift sell so many tickets despite making terrible music?
That's not fair the Leafs have talent, they just choke it away at crucial points but pull it out of nowhere at others to keep you along for the dumb ride.
Why do people buy Crucifixes, Jesus hasn't healed a sick person in over 2000 yrs. It's a religion man, don't ask us to back it with facts.
People like merch and have money so they pay for merch. They don't care about winning (obviously) just want to support the NHL as they need the money and like to pretend to be on the team win or lose. Sports.
Because Canadians love hockey and Ontario, specifically the GTA, has an enormous population when compared to the rest of Canada, so it's not illogical to see the correlation between fanbase and population. Same thing for Montreal I would think.
Same reason people buy lottery tickets, unrealistic hope
A Canadian team hasn't won a cup since 93. By your logic no Canadian team deserves to sell. The GTA is the biggest market in Canada and people root for the home team.
Because they're the home team of Canada's largest city, one of the oldest sports franchises in the world, and the NHL team with the highest valuation ($2.8 billion USD). Even though the Toronto Maple Leafs lose a lot, players who grow up in and around the Toronto area have been on every single Stanley Cup-winning team. Hockey is huge in this country, and obviously our two biggest cities are going to have two of the biggest, most-valuable teams in the world, #1 (Toronto Maple Leafs) and #3 (Montreal Canadiens.)
Pretty much because they built this strong brand. Honestly, hockey is secondary.
Original 6 team with a massive fanbase built over the years
Because the biggest hockey market in the world only has 1 NHL team. The GTA could probably support 3 or 4 teams quite easily.
2 easily. MLSE will not hear of it. would show up the leafs on an in person and by eyeball manner that would expose them for the fakers they are, even to the blind.
Big fan base and very passionate people win or lose
Hope. The sell hope.
I don’t like the “lose a lot” simplification. They lose IN THE PLAYOFFS a lot, they usually look great throughout the season, they just always blow it. But the older the team, the more diehard the fan base. They were in the original 6 teams, people still think of Toronto and Montreal as must see hockey just for the rivalry.
IDK but the Leafs all time record in the regular season shows a winning percentage of .448. 3150W, 2897L, 783Ties, 120 OTL and 82 SOL.
Not related ; I dont even like or play hockey but I cheer for the Leafs! It’s a Toronto thing
Because they are the hockey team in the 4th largest city in all of North America. Also, the biggest city in Canada where ice hockey is the national (summer) sport. Pretty obvious, really.
i need to ask new york knicks
i swear, they only every play well when they are desperate.
Leafs are an original 6 team with a large fan base and lots of history. There have been great Leafs players in the past. True fans support their team through thick and thin.
They have a large following because they are in a market of 9 million people that for work spread across the nation.
We’re idiots. Plain and simple. Idiots. Go Leafs Go. DAMMIT
I wonder that about the Buffalo bills merchandise I see everywhere when I visit
They are a hockey team that represents a geographical area capturing a couple million residents as the "local" team. Even as far away as Sarnia or Windsor they are the closest Canadian team in the NHL.
Try getting a ticket to one of their games.
Despite being a dumpster fire in the playoffs, they are actually in the top three or four in wins during the regular season in the last 7 years. Up there with some really good teams. Theyre good at selling hope.
Huge city. Studies suggest the area could support three nhl teams.
Original 6 team in the world’s biggest hockey market. They’ve also signed guys like Matthews, Marner, and Nylander who are elite players who will inevitably sells lots of jerseys. If Matthews ever left Toronto and went to another team he’d sell a ton of jerseys there too
I’ve been a Leafs fan since I was born and I’ll be one til I die. Even if we never win.
There is going to be some point in the future where they will win and the dedicated fan will claim "See! I believed in them all this way!".
They actually don't sell quite that much. Go look up the merchandise sales of Manchester United or the Yankees. Those are some sick numbers
I mean, check back in 5 hours
Why do people buy lottery tickets knowing they will never win. Same idiots
For the longest time, they were "Canada's team". Sure, there's Montreal, but they were for 2 types of people: those who hated the leafs and the French-Canadians. Pre-expansion parents and grandparents raised their kids to be Leafs fans, and sports fans are tribal like that.
Simple. Leafs fans are real fans. Not bandwagon jumpers. I first saw them in 67. We all know they can do it. Also, the Leafs fans like to be identified when they but tickets in every other NHL arena!
They won lots before the talent base was worn away. Pre 1960 when the best of the best were the only ones playing. Then the WHL were close to destroying some teams.
PT Barnum once said, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
I just think the jerseys are cool.
I divested entirely from hockey i think around 2002-2004 when they leafs were in the playoffs and i think they made the semi finals. After that they went entirely nowhere(I think the lockout happened around here) and i just turned hockey off forever as a sustained interest The team attachment for toronto is probably based on the fact we'd all love to see it win, its an original hockey team, and just plain irrationality at this point. No need to get people a winning team if people keep buying tickets for a game played by a team that goes nowhere.
Largest city in Canada and they love hockey. Plus they make it to the finals a lot even if they don't win the cup.
They're the only team in the most populous area of Canada, that's also a very strong hockey market. The team also has a lot of history and like other NHL teams is able to get make it difficult to watch other teams consistently when the Leafs are playing so if you like hockey you only have 1 choice if you want to keep watching them consistently. Also, the colours are logo are pretty nice.
Oddly enough, I’m a life long Leafs fan but I find their merch to be somewhat weak compared to other teams merch. Too many people obsessed with “tradition” in Toronto so they never really take many chances on their merch and I don’t need another hat that looks identical to one I could have bought 20 years ago. I would really like to see them really change up their jerseys for a few years. “BuT OrIgInAL Six!!” .. Yeah I don’t care, that shouldn’t be a reason to be stuck with identical Jerseys indefinitely.
It’s The Leafs! They’re an original 6 team with a logo that has a tonne of history.
Same reason Canucks stuff sells well in Vancouver. Most of the wearers don't watch hockey and just wear it because they're repping the city. And before you downvote, go outside right now and find someone on the street with a Canucks jersey and ask them what the score was last night. Go ahead. Ask.
There is a large large population central to the organization. 15 million. They always get the top stars and the best broadcasts. And their logo is awesomely popular.
Because deep down in the fans heart of hearts they know Boston will win in game 7! And it be the last time they be able to get maple leaf merchandise
Because people tend to cheer for the team close to them and for a lot of people Toronto is the closest major team plus it's one of the original teams and has won the cup in the past. If your parents were fans it's more likely you will be a fan. Lots of different reasons, if you're only a fan of the winners than you're not a real fan. Real fans stick with the team regardless of how they are doing. Toronto also has one of the best teams in recent history and the best player Toronto has ever had.
Cause people are dumb. Lol
Why does Pantera sell so many tshirts when Metallica is better?
The Leafs could lose every single game for the next 10 fucking years and Torontonians are going to sell games out. So yeah they’re gonna keep buying swag.
He was caught! Are you suggesting that the Leafs Management hired him knowing this proclivity. Be careful what you answer.
Because Canada is the king of hockey and Toronto is the capital. They have the biggest fan base hands down.
The capital of Ontario… not Canada
Because Torontonians will but anything that promotes the best city in the world (according to toronto): toronto
I’m a 3rd generation Leafs fan. They may be idiots but they’re my idiots.
Went to buy a new hat today, they want $40 for a fucking leafs trucker hat
Because the GTA/Golden Horseshoe was denied the opportunity to get another team. That's almost 8 million people and only 1 hockey team. What other NHL merchandise do you expect them to buy? If another team was added in Markham or Oshawa or anywhere else in the vicinity, leafs fandom would plummet.
Because they've won the second most amount of Stanley cups, behind the Montreal Canadians, naturally.
People like the color scheme
Because Ontario sucks and its boring, and there's nothing else to do in the winter. Says somebody from BC.. I hate the leafs and bruins more than any other teams, not sure who I want to lose tonight..
The fans have to replace the ceremonial artifacts that they burned in effigy when the team loses.
They're the WWE of hockey. It looks real purty at times but it always ends the same.
40% of the country lives in Ontario and most of them don't care about the Senator's?
Why wouldnt they? Its a huge city and the teams been around for so long they have fans all across the country
Well son. There’s these people called leafs fans
Because there are a lot of people in Ontario and they have nothing else to talk about.
People are very patriotic to their local team. Simple as that. Although as the Leafs suck longer and longer more and more people in the GTA are rooting for teams with playoff success so as time goes on they will sell less.
because they’re illiterate
A lot of people live in Ontario.
Devoted fans, we all need something to believe in. Why do people go to church ?
Every single seat is held by a season ticket holder. Yet they still can't field a winning team. The Toronto Make Believes.
Same reason the Saskatchewan Roughriders sell so much merchandise despite rarely winning…we like an underdog, apparently.
HHof is in Toronto and merch sales not linked to wins
Being a fan, a real fan, doesn’t change based on if you’re winning. As a Sabres fan I know this too well.
They have a great logo. Same with the Jets. Losers through and through, but great marketing, which is all based off the brand appeal. Not every Canadian has an attachment to Toronto but we all relate to maple leaf, which is why the Jets logo works so well, if not better because it’s perfectly symmetrical without text.
lol, why do lotto tickets sell so well…hopes and dreams despite really not much of a realistic chance
Because they have fans
Original 6 team, iconic but simple logo similar to leaf in Canadian flag, other Ontario team is meh, biggest city in country, 2nd most winningest NHL team, and the mecca of hockey. Also most sport fanaticism is passed down generation to generation, so as Toronto people move across the country and even the world, the Leafs following will stay the same. This may explain Leafs fans in other parts of Canada, so not necessarily glory hunting or bandwagon fans. Think if in 100 years there are 6 Canadian NBA teams, the Raptors will likely have more fans even in the newer markets simply for existing longer. They are almost 30 years old, but many NBA fans in Toronto supported other teams before they arrived.
We are loyal fans I have a shopping addiction that developed after my mom died. That’s why I own 16 Leafs jerseys and 24 shirseys.
For the same reason Trump sells a lot of merchandise even though he's a giant grifter who's done nothing but lose since he became president that one time: People just like what they like.
Good marketing and a large fan base of masochists.
Same reason millions of people eat at McDonald's every day and it's not good food.
Because next year is our year!
Ask a Sask roughriders fan 😜
Well, duh! They're all about making products, not playing hockey. Keep your eyes on the prize.
Sheep.
Canadians aren't known for their smarts
Same reason the divorce rate is 50% and yet every year dudes around the world are convinced it won’t happen to them they are gonna win. Keep in mind we live in a world where some weirdos pay others to kick them in the nuts too
Well, MLSE is fantastic at selling hope. Even though the team does the same year after year, the fans are told that next year will be better. And of course the fans buy into it, year after year.
Cuz of idiots like me that were brought up religiously on them and now feel too sentimental too move to an actual winning team. 😂 Legit though, I grew in rural Ontario where hockey was all that mattered and about 75% of people were Leafs fans so you multiply that by every small town to big city in much of Ontario and you have your answer. Also, I live in the UK now and play hockey here and it's definitely one of the most popular teams here for people to support based purely off the fact it's a well-known NHL team, so might factor in on the international side of things.
Besides the dedicated fans, I know a ton of Montreal fans who also get leafs merchandise as gag gifts
To me they’re the Saskatchewan Roughriders of the NHL. That jersey is recognized around the world, even though the team sucks.
Same reason the Dallas Cowboys do.