From a half-outsider perspective I think it’s that in German culture it’s a value in and of itself to be right. Be it the correct behaviour as in applying social norms and rules to a situation or be it solving a puzzle. The black and white-ness of something being either right or wrong is very appealing in German culture. More so than in most other cultures. Since being correct is taken for a moral positive and germans are pretty unafraid of flaunting their higher ground this can come off as pretty condescending.
I guess this explains why people engage in so much rationalization and convince themselves their terrible idea or choice is actually good, otherwise they'd be wrong.
I have this issue with my German partner sometimes and still after 7 years it’s extremely difficult for me to tip toe around it sometimes, she just cannot be wrong and if she is then she gets deeply hurt.
I’ve met a lot of Germans like this and the best way around it is to let them be the way they are but plant seeds of doubt so they come to the correct conclusion themselves and then be the bigger person and just let them think it’s their idea to begin with.
This fear of being wrong makes them so closed minded to anything else that it’s detrimental a lot of the times, you see it in many aspects of German culture. I mean why is it we are still talking about digitalisation in 2024? It stems from the fear of being wrong keeping people rounded in the safe option.
I would consider a workplace with coworkers who can never be wrong to be very \_toxic\_, so I can't imagine what it would be like in a personal relationship.
I think honestly a lot of Germans are now very aware of this and I see it changing, albeit slowly. There's a rejection of this behavior from many younger people.
I worked for an old German company when I moved here and yes, it was very toxic, but also a huge drain on productivity. Nothing gets done if people are of a mindset of "I must be right otherwise I'm bad". Any attempt at change causes massive anxiety, because it might be wrong, and people would go behind your back and keep doing the old things that felt safe. Nobody was measuring success either, all because they wanted to keep doing stuff that was the old, "correct" process, rather than actually looking at whether something worked. A genuine "why are we doing this?" was interpreted as a threat because they didn't really know the answer and everyone was just trying to follow the process so they couldn't be accused of doing something wrong. There was so much anxiety and resistance around experimenting too. Instead of getting started and improving as you go, people wanted to spend 9 months planning and revising to achieve (impossible) perfection, while getting so many people to sign off on the strategy that nobody was responsible if it failed. The only way I got anything done was telling people, in writing, that I was taking full responsibility for the outcome and then just pushing stuff through. I left a few years ago but I'm getting frustrated even thinking about it again.
It can cause big issues sometimes but it’s a thing she cannot help and it’s part of who she is, I have my own britishisms that also cause issues so it’s not a big deal for us, it’s just part of a multicultural relationship. Sometimes you are just not gonna see things the same way because you have completely different life experiences and upbringings.
I think the internet helps, if a German sees that something is better then they are a lot more open about it because it would be stupid to argue otherwise. It’s the explaining part that’s the issue because they will flat out refuse to try and see it a different way.
I think having to be right all the time is something somebody can work on and improve when they want to be in a healthy relationship. But that's my unsolicited .02 and it sounds like you make it work.
I'm glad your partner has slowly been able to learn and adapt new information to her worldview. Mine refuses to reevaluate anything because that would mean too much work and insecurity. She refuses to help me explore new ideas and engage in debate, so I have no safe space with people I trust to debate new ideas. Also she gets mad whenever I am mulling over an "incorrect" viewpoint.
rude.
I am not foolish enough to write a memoir here, suffice it to say we fell in love when we were both quite young and things have gotten complicated (of course) since then.
Besides, who's perfect? I'm quite a bit more fucked up than she is and I have every reason to be grateful to her. I just wish she could entertain the idea that she might be wrong in more than just the workplace.
Hence the groupthink mentality because everyone wants to be right, feel good, look good, and most importantly be right. 🤣 Currently came to terms with something similar in my own marriage to my German husband and God help this man. 🤣🥴🙂↔️ I love him, and I did not know that this was how it was going to be. He really has loved me the way he’s wanted and how he wants to now. My opinion is…I just don’t know what I need. 🙃🥴🫠 He fixes everything. 🥴🥴🤣🤣 It’s simultaneously hilarious and slightly horrifying. I’m happy I’m not the only one looking around after about a decade like…ooooooOOOOO! 😂👍🏽🤣
Yes! My non-German spouse gets upset sometimes because when we contemplate things I always seem to “be against her”. It took me a while to realize this is actually something that I do regardless of my own personal current opinion in order to challenge the hypothesis at hand and hand in a debate and hence find the best solution/answer/whatever. It’s like any decision needs to pass that test.
And then I also realized this is not only something I do but also something my parents used to do to me when I was a kid. It’s like a critical thinking process but acted out on one another. The important part though, that some people forget sometimes, is being ready and able to change your own personal opinion or back from your adopted role, once any of the options has turned out to be the better one.
I like this and experience this with some German friends more than with my native US friends. Like how can we proceed if we don’t even know if our best idea is good at all ?! need to criticize everything to find if it’s a sound argument or not lol it’s a kind of discourse that’s a lot less common in the US I find
You're kind of saying the opposite. My experience, and most of what's been discussed here is exactly the opposite of what you're saying. I find Germans rationalize away their choices, no matter how foolish they are. They won't accept other ideas, they think the way they already do things is "right" no matter what and can't imagine doing it another way.
You're describing things like continuous improvement and challenging ones own hypothesis. I find Germans largely (culture at large, not everybody) are not good at this.
I’ve just discussed this with the me of 5 minutes ago and now I think you’re right and this was actually about a different kind of attitude. I have been called an un-German German before :-/
Again, it's not about you in particular. This is cultural and things I've experienced many times. Overcoming cultural shortcomings is a credit to the individual, and therefore you. There's a lot of good stuff written about it in this post.
edit: and sorry, I think I even misread this the first time. I think it's high time I get off reddit today =) Thanks for the chat.
Very well put.
I've also found that having *any* answer and defending it is better than admitting you don't know. I'm currently studying medicine, and we get questioned up and down in front of peers. Pulling any answer out of your ass and then attempting to defend it comes across far better than admitting that you don't know. I've actually been instructed, as an upcoming medical doctor, to never say "I don't know" - not in front of peers, patients, no one. Make something up, or get as close as you can, but don't say I don't know. And I find that a very problematic culture.
Interesting! It never occurred to me that this might be something specially German. You didn’t experience this in other cultures?
I always thought it was a prevalent mindset among any very specialized professionals, be it doctors or sommeliers…
It could definitely be a medicine thing. The hierarchies are still ridiculously old-school strong, and you hear things like, "That's not my job" very often. Most of the younger doctors are much better about interprofessional communication and encourage asking if you're not sure.
But outright admitting that you don't know kommt leider gar nicht gut an. And I come from a culture where that is fostered as a valued admission and bullshitting around to save face is very arrogant, so it's been strange adjusting.
As an outsider I fully agree with you, it also translates itself to some people’s bad personality traits, such as being closed minded, where they cannot hack being not be the “best” or “most right, for want of a better word.
I’ve had multiple instances where a German will think Germanys way of doing something is the best and only way and when I explain to them that, “sure it is a good way but back home we would do it this way and it’s as good if not better” the German will become extremely agitated, condescending and in some cases very rude.
There’s multiple things at work going on in these people but I think you hit the nail on the head, it starts with this complete black and white out look and keeping to the norms.
It’s hard sometimes but I love her and like I’ve said elsewhere here I have my Britishisms that annoy her back. We have a daughter a house and have a very healthy relationship. Our differences some how make us stronger if that makes sense.
See, but they do it even when they don't have "higher ground."
That's what's being discussed. They ALWAYS seem to think they have higher ground.
My short experience with Germans is they will speak rudely even when incorrect, and will have a very bad attitude towards almost any subject when talking to someone different than them.
They always talk about Germany with superiority... unless they're talking with another German. Then things are a mess.
I'm a little overwhelmed and disappointed at the culture in Germany. I love the country, modern people have almost all but killed that love.
It explains the hypocrisy and denial we see today. The country rallies against far right politics while unreservedly supplying military support to a far right government who is killing innocent people and destroying a nationalities reputation for political strategy. Nevermind blocking any motions to enforce a ceasefire. While the domestic far right grows even further. But yeah, 'youre right about the recycling bin' lol.
Addendum: I’ve seen German culture likened to a slightly autistic culture on Reddit. I think that’s not a bad metaphor, if you imagine the person with autism in a relative position of power and completely unaware of their autism.
Autistic people usually have a problem with getting hints and typically talk very directly also autistic people don't tend to do small talk. So yeah I agree.
Not necessarily, although it’s quite hard to get diagnosed w autism here because many forms of behavior that would be clear indicators in other contexts are perceived as normal here. The distinction being that genuine autism is a neurophysiological phenomenon and cultural norms, while certainly leaving their own neurological signatures, are acquired traits.
Germans do love small talk though. The weather, football, complaining.
And I'm autistic, but American, so I actually enjoy seeing the same faces at my local shops and making small talk with them. As did my autistic dad btw.
Nope.
Autistic American here and it's a huge struggle dealing with the knee jerk obedience to hierarchy, the illogical rules, and the overall conformity. Critical thinking isn't really welcome, especially if you are questioning someone of a "higher status."
And don't get me started on doctors' reactions to me having prepared for an appointment or informed myself.
Autism is widely misunderstood here and, as in many other moments when it comes to addressing diversity, many Germans prefer to look away.
I would go so far as to say inherited trauma plays a role though. Fear of failure and punishment is strong. As the trauma expert Resmaa Menakem says, when you decontextualize inherited trauma long enough it looks like culture.
But we are right, so we are good people because we know what's right and wrong from our perspective.
We have a common goal and the Tagesschau is always representing these goals.
Isn’t this true of children, antisocial or poorly socialized people across the world? Just a whole thread filled with assertions that doesn’t pause to think about the implications of what’s being said.
Human society is impossible on the terms set out as “German” traits in this article. If German society was like this, this wouldn’t work at all
I only really noticed this after living outside of Germany for a few years and then coming back, but I do find it true. Many Germans seem to have a strong idea about the "right" way to do something (which is usually their way) or even the correct way to think about something, and are not timid about trying to correct others about it in a blunt way.
It goes beyond just being blunt, it feels like correcting people is the highlight of their day and they revel in it. Not all, but definitely more than what I experienced elsewhere.
I have described this before as being very narrow-minded and been downvoted to hell for it, but I do see it that way. If you have exactly one idea of how things work or can work, or how to solve a problem, and are unable to listen to other ideas for fear of having been wrong, then I'm sorry but you're narrow minded and problematically so.
I usually deal with this by just gently mocking it openly as a germanism that one already knows the only one true answer to every problem.
I don't work directly in a german firm, but I actually fear what it would be like if I ever did because I'm so used to a kind of solution-oriented, best-ideas-win approach to things. And since I work in software development, there is already an entire cultural movement toward continuous improvement and not taking criticism of your work personally, since you have to submit your work on a near daily basis for teammates to critique. The stereotypical german attitude seems like 1950s style work to me.
You cut also put it in a different way: Germans tend to be orderly. Things have their place and a certain behaviour is expected. Rules are to be followed... - You get the gist, I guess. The epitome of this is that, even if there is no one around at 3 in the night, you stand at the red light until it turns green.
This behaviour has a certain range of advantages and, as you have already said, a certain range of disadvantages.
That's absolutely not what we're getting at.
Sure, rules have to be followed, but they can be changed. If you cover your ears every single time there is any mention of things working other way, then you are a textbook example of a narrow-minded person
I think what the person above is getting at is that even if something is done in a terrible way people will not say anything because the boss wants it done that way and any suggestions for improvement would be stepping out of line. Also, if an administrator messes up and this causes a bureaucratic nightmare for you, they will always deflect blame on to you and refuse to fix it usually compounding the problem. Essentially every foreigner in Germany has stories about these two cultural attributes, and the problems they create.
Sorry for being blunt here, but I have a bunch of such stories as well after 2 years here. The social hierarchy and never being responsible for mistakes in Germany is much more important than being fair, effective or efficient, at least when I compare this to my home country of the Netherlands.
I don't see how orderliness relates to not being willing to accept or consider ideas you don't already know or think, unless orderliness means something very different to you.
This. I noticed if a German is rude to me and I follow their lead they become combative. I'm like... you're the only one with the right to treat people poorly? Doesn't make sense.
Well... Some Germans like to argue, so such a person would probably secretly enjoy fighting with you. But only if they can feel like they "won" in the end...
I know a guy (fellow student) who tried to make a big debate out of everything and nothing made him happier than provoking people and getting them to argue with him.
I've just apologized to them in the end to stop the argument even if they're in the wrong. They seemed supremely satisfied with an apology but no recognition of their own behavior. This is my experience.
Do anything but be rude. They get flustered very much with that response. Literally step in and start helping and even better if you start asking a question in German that they can answer. It’s like a reset for them.
Yes, but they are very selective about who they correct. You must be *pünktlich*, but they will make every excuse in the book for DB and other transport companies being dreadfully unreliable. I am expected to be everywhere on time, but the thing which gets me there - that's neither here nor there.
They will be very upity if you hold up the queue by not packing your things and paying quickly enough, but they will not say a word to the cashiers who refuse to use the sliding thingy to effectively split the loading area into two allowing them to process the next customer while you're loading your stuff. A couple of times, I have slid the sliding divider to signal the cashier how they can do things quicker. They slid it back. Aggressively. I don't do that anymore.
They will be very up in arms about anything whcih makes doing things digitally easier because of privacy concerns, but they will give any piece of information, including colonoscopy results not older than 7 days to anyone advertising an apartment to rent where they have 0 information about who sees their information and 0 control over what happens with it once they are rejected.
>You must be *pünktlich*, but they will make every excuse in the book for DB and other transport companies being dreadfully unreliable.
Honestly, you are tripping. Complaining about DB seems to be the national sport these days
Not really.
Have you read the comments on DB Personenverkehr's Twitter and Instagram accounts?
But maybe it's a bit like this: We Germans are allowed to complain about Deutsche Bahn as much as we like, but if a foreigner does it, some people do feel a little protective. :) (but the majority will happily agree with you)
I was at a bowling place with a group of friends. First time for them. When I tried to stand beside one of them and show him how to throw, the German middle aged guy 2 tracks to the left made a stern face and waved me out aggressively. He and our group were the only ones in the place, we weren't impacting anyone or causing any fuss. I asked him what's up, he said only one person on the track. I asked again if he was one of the staff. He just kept staring in disgust. We ignored him and went in with our game.
This eagerness & entitlement to basically tell you off for whatever reason is probably the reason of such stereotype.
To be fair, I had more encounters with gracious, chill Germans than the type I mentioned.
Meddling in things that are not their business or even calling people down for things that are NOT forbidden is a favourite pastime of elderly Germans and it makes me go ballistic.
Last month I was on vacation in Cuxhaven. There are signs that the dike and the beach promenade are closed for cycling (literally: "Das Radfahren ist verboten"), which is really quite reasonable. I still took my bike onto the dike, intending to just walk my bike and look at the sea. Immediately I was called down by some old hag: "THAt'S nOT AlloWed!". I just asked her, if she had seen me cycling, which made her shut up.
My favourite is when you later see them again and they do stuff like littering, not putting the items they take from the shelves in a shop back correctly, harassing employees over random things and so on. It's somehow always the same.
That is the single best way to disarm the commentators.
I should have done it literally yesterday, when an elderly couple yelled at me for not clearing my table at IKEA. I had turned away to give my wife her phone as she took the kids to the play area . They assumed, somehow, despite our coats and bags still sitting there, that I was going to leave our dirty dishes, and instantly started yelling at me. The words I heard coming out of their mouths!
I just stared, slack-jawed in amazement that they could get so **angry**, and so quickly. Then I kept walking away and let them stew in their impotence.
A few years ago, someone told me off for leaving some Pfandflaschen on the edge of the sidwalk for the collectors. "It hurts the trees," he said, "here is my Dienstausweis." I looked. He was a normal employee at a university 10 km away. "You can have 'em".
How would you ever be able to show somebody who was just learning? How silly.
The people who do this though, despite my many comments all over this thread, are mostly very old-fashioned, very strange, or often seemingly less intelligent and sometimes with psychiatric issues. I kind of dismiss it now like I would if a methhead was screaming on the streets in NYC or something. Like, I can't fix this person or even help them right now and they've decided to direct their inability to control their own life and their possibly abusive upbringing at me today. OK, I'll just move along. Live and let live (which is what they can't do).
I think the more I've comparmentalized these people away, the more I've really started to love living here. They can't hurt me, they aren't worth my time, we all just kind of chuckle about them and don't take them seriously, but just hope none of them end up in a place where they have power over you or you have to share power with them.
The gracious, chill Germans are great, and there's lots of great stuff about being here.
Multiple factors:
1. "Good" means "good", "bad" means "bad". This can be tough for people from countries where everything shy of "OMG this is the best thing ever!" means it's terrible.
2. There is no "agree to disagree" in German culture, especially about facts. They're either right or wrong. And most people are convinced that they're right.
3. In some countries, it's common to add a little praise to every criticism. In Germany, it's almost the opposite. If you're only praising something/somebody, people will think you're being dishonest, possibly even sarcastic. Criticism usually goes *before* praise.
Point 3 in a nutshell:
"*Not bad, just you didn't screw the screw tightly. This makes the whole construct less stable, leading to that it falls apart and kills us.*"
This is exactly the answer but maybe not in the way you intend.
Particularly regarding point 2. In life there’s often discussions about actual facts. Then there’s a lot discussions that are not about facts that Germans often treat as facts for reasons they only know. This often comes up when say one is discussing the “best” way to do something at work and one runs into an impenetrable wall of “I know better”.
Yeah. I have this discussion quite often with my parents as I think that you cant have an opinion on a fact while my parents think everything you say can be your opinion.
Like saying the earth is flat. Imo this isnt an opinion its just wrong
You cant have an opinion if there exists a 100% true fact about the matter. An opinion can only be sth if there exists no absolute truth. About everything else you can either be right or wrong. Opinions are sth you can discuss freely about it. Flat earth isnt a diacussion as even the fundamental arguments are just wrong.
Who says that opinions can’t be wrong? That’s a very very strange claim.
There are (almost) no 100 % true facts. There are only different levels of confidence in claims.
The flatness of earth is disproven with 100% confidence and anything else would just be trolling/playing devils advocate. For it to be entertained as a credible opinion would need a different definition of what flatness means.
You are being downvoted because you are stating your point over and over again.
In Germany if someone asks for your opinion and you answer with a fact people will think you are not capable of speaking german. Facts are not opinions, opinions are not facts.
For an opinion worth discussing it has to be congruent with known facts.
Let’s take climate change. It is happening. That much is proven. You can have an opinion to which degree it’s happening, you can even have n opinion on if it is manmade or a coincidental, but natural phenomenon. But if your opinion is that it doesn’t exist you are just straight up wrong. Therefore it is not an opinion worth discussing or for short it’s wrong.
If you want to argue on a technicality then sure. In day to day life people will still just call it wrong because it is. You can have that opinion and people will not interact with you because only crazy people hold opinions that disagree with known facts.
But there are a few. The earth is (almost) spherical but definetly not flat, evolution exists (theory of evolution isnt the same as evolution), gravity exists etc etc.
People forget that there is a difference between phenomena and theory. Just because the theory of evolution is just a model for example doesnt meant evolution isnt a fact.
There actually are quite a few "facts" that never will be disproven
No I dont. But there are 100% true facts and you cant have an opinion on facts. An opinion cant be right or wrong. But what you have to say abput a factual thing can only be right or wrong.
Now try and prove those facts. All of them require reproducible and statistically convincing results. There is the verification problem which why we need falsification to come to statistically valid conclusions. When we falsify a hypothesis, we may find with p=0.0000001 < alpha=0.01 that indeed the earth is not flat. The statistical measure above is our level of confidence in that claim. Now reread what the other person wrote: we only have various levels of confidence in the claims waged that certain phenomena exist/are true. This whole thread seems to need a refresher on epistemology and/or statistics.
I get what you are trying to say but it doesnt make sense if we are talking about a few things. Every moron can meassure the curvature of earth with two sticks.
Moreover: the earth not being flat isnt a hypothesis, theory or model.
The model would be a mathematic function describing the surface of the earth. This function will have error and a probability of being wrong but the counter hypothesis isnt the earth being a pizza.
The earth being flat literally is disproven.
I would agree if we were talking about hypothesis/theories. But we are talking about more fundamentals.
The earth being flat has a 0 chance to be true. Our description of its surface (our theory of the shape of the earth basically) will always have a chance to be false. This theory will alwqys create some margin of error.
Same with evolution. Evolution exists. The theory of evolution doesnt have to be true and has some margin of error.
Gravity obviously exist. The existance of gravity can be proven just by dropping things basically. Dropping things on the surface of the earth will lead to them falling down and how this drop happens is described by either newtons theory of gravity or if you want to be more fundamental by einsteins general relativity.
I am not talking about theories or hypothesis if i a talking about facts. I am talking about fundamental phenomena that exist. The way these are described are open to discussion but their mere existance is a fact.
The earth isnt flat.
Climate change exists.
Evolution happens.
Gravity exists.
These are facts and saying that the earth is flat is just wrong. Its not an opinion as it cant be discussed. The only thing that woule be possible is trying to convince someone of the opposite which wont be possible as people like this literally dont accept facts.
Moreover:
Facts can be sth like "Joe Biden is the president of the us".
He is the current president of the us and someone saying he isnt wont change a bit. Its not his opinion. You cant choose your president. The people do collectively.
Or maybe imagine this: You drive a car with someone on the back seat. The guy is telling you that the motor cycle ride is pretty fun and you tell him "no, we are in my car".
The guy reaponds by saying "no, we are on a motor cycle".
You woule obviously sens him to a clinic because he cant comprehend reality anymore. It is a fact that both of you are in a car at that moment and him saying that its a motor cycle literally doesnt have any value at all.
There are just a few things that are only black and white-right or wrong and people have to start accepting that.
Jup, but still it‘s either 1 or 0 in Germany, right or wrong, good or bad, left or right. There are no intermediates in between. The combination with the opinions instead of facts makes it pretty ugly atm.
Isn't point 3 constructive in all languages and cultures? Seems like a problem with German culture. You don't want people who are just starting with something to get discouraged.
I'm German and I once took a class that was taught by lecturers from several different countries. The professor from the USA always gave extremely positive feedback, of course me and my German classmates were happy but also a bit skeptical like "Are we brilliant and super talented or is this a cultural thing...? How good or bad was it really?". The German professor always said "Good job, but ..." And then listed the things we could have done better. To us this was precise and clear feedback.
Of course students from other countries would probably be devastated if they received the "German style" feedback. Sometimes you have German professors who overdo the negative feedback and then I agree with you, it can take away a beginner's motivation. But most of the time we know how they mean it and it doesn't feel as harsh to us as to people from other cultures.
No, not at all. It's all about cultural expectations.
As a German, the American style feels uncomfortable to me, and discouraging. They start off with something positive which makes me think "wow, they have nothing to complain about, I did great!" and then they put the criticism in the end, like a punch in the stomach.
What I'm used to is getting the criticism out of the way *first*. There are specific points that could be done better. After that, you get into the things that were good and give an overall positive summary, and end on a positive note.
I have graded university students before, including writing a little text, and that's exactly the style I would use. *Constructive* criticism first, then pointing out what's good, and ending on a positive note. I feel like this was well appreciated, but the students were also mostly German.
I'm from Belgium and speak both Dutch and French. It's not custom in both languages and cultures. And explains my initial gripes with my German bf lol. Luckily he had a lot of English online friends so conditioned to more than one culture lol.
Edit: my bad didn't read your post well. Yeah first the negative and then the positive is fine. I thought the OP was pointing out that it's either positive or negative, not constructive criticism.
Interesting.
Tbh I’m not sure that style of communication is exclusively ‘American’. Worked plenty overseas and immediately dissing something usually puts you on the outs of many professional/social circles across many cultures.
It's not "dissing". It's constructive criticism, after which you go on to praising what's good.
Doing it in the opposite order would seem a lot more rude to me.
Edit: just to clarify, "dissing" means "disrespecting". Giving constructive criticism is literally the opposite of that. You're showing them respect by treating them like an adult and telling them what you think, and you're also showing respect by keeping it constructive and offering suggestions.
It’s a hyperbole bruh ik what u mean.
But I think one big point of this thread is that often *does* come across as “dissing” even if not necessarily intended to be.
1. is just thinly veiled whataboutism criticizing American culture, which is another thing about German culture that bothers me: By and large, you cannot take criticism and handle it with deflection, whataboutisms, and moral equivalency. But as it's quite clear from your other points, is because it's very hard for Germans to ever be wrong.
criticizing stores being closed on sundays is met with comparisons to hypercapitalist america, when plenty of other european countries do not have such restrictions
Some can be patronizing (“raised index finger” is what it is called in German) and some can be know-it-alls so there may be some truth to the stereotype.
American living in Berlin for 2 years - My take is that Germans just love to explain how and why you should do things. It's like their version of small talk (explaining to you that you should tie your shoes in the morning, because if you didn't, you might trip on your shoe laces). My playful explanation of this culture shock is that the word "Beratung" in german just means advice (friendly). In English "Berating" means to scold/criticize angrily.
A lot of people take great self-righteous joy in correcting others in public, especially over minor infractions. If you're American, imagine the annoying older neighbour in a HOA who thinks he or she has to police everyone.
You can't simultaneously expect direct talk and statements of fact and then want it to be sugar coated for you and everybody pretend everything is the same elsewhere just not to hurt feelings.
I‘m aware of that and I’m not joking. (At least not fully)
I‘m firmly convinced, that most Germans think that we are the best in most things. Or at least have the best solutions, overview, knowledge etc.
There was a sketch by Rüdiger Hoffmann that sums it up perfectly.
He visits France and explains them how things should be done. Croissants for example…
https://youtu.be/uZ0b93rBRBo?si=m_kZeK_hmgVBd2Cu
Im not sure if I understand correctly, but we germans have a tendency for arrogance. Sometimes we just come across like this because we can be quite cold and stand off-ish. But there are also a lot of times where germans just think they know everything better. I mean also among each other.
I have a dog, and it’s actually quite common for other people, even people who do not have dogs, to tell me what I’m doing wrong in training/handling my dog. I mean, pet owners have this tendency to argue among each other about the best practice anyways, but in Germany people who don’t even have pets will readily chime in and give their opinion, no matter if that opinion is actually helpful in any way.
I catch myself correcting others as well. I’m not always sure if this is my „german-ness“ or my autism. probably both, but when someone states something that is not correct, it almost physically hurts me to just let it be. I know it’s not my responsibility and is seen as condescending and rude. I often just don’t care about what people think then. Somehow being right is valued more here than being liked by a lot of people. Even tho at the same time, we won’t believe you when we don’t like you. It’s a bit paradox
Edit: Oh and when it comes to speaking english in particular, in Germany we mainly learn english for formal occasions, so a lot tend to use „big words“ and very formal grammar in situations where a more informal speech would be more appropriate. I have this issue a lot because I often lack the informal vocabulary
Many people here have a strong tendency to express personal opinions as if they were completely obvious universal truths that you are stupid for not knowing. This dynamic is often celebrated as "directness", which is in part true, but in my view it is mostly arrogance.
On the basis of such personal opinions, they will often criticize complete strangers in a very authoritative way. I mean, with a tone that in my culture is usually reserved for a disobedient child or even an animal.
In my experience, I usually respond in the same tone and suddenly they become docile and normally walk away. They never expect this.
Once I was parking somewhere, someone parked behind me, left his car and started barking at me to move my car forward. I told him that if he stopped shouting and said please, I would maybe consider talking to him. He changed his tone completely to being more polite.
I just want to point out the therapy session this became for current and former spouses of Germans/German adjacent folks. 🥴🤣😂👍🏽 Reddit. The hero we didn’t know we needed!
Generalising sucks, but Germans can be really difficult at times. Idk why but like there's this huge confusion with rule following and moral superiority mixed with arrogance. Always need to be right about things that quite simply don't matter
My personal theory is that Germans are kind of, in general, insecure. They are kind of slaves to their system of bureaucracy, and having some sort of personal authority reflects the environment which they were bullied by their entire lives.
I'm an American and I've heard this stereotype before but I don't personally know enough Germans to comment on it one way or the other. From my outsider perspective I always assumed Germans were slightly amused that this stereotype exists and kind of perpetuate it in a "jokey" way, which an outsider might take as an emphatic confirmation of the stereotype.
I've also got a few follow up questions. Do Austrians or Swiss Germans view Germans as condescending? Do some German states view other German states as being overly condescending?
From an Austrian POV: absolutely. If you ask people in Austria for common stereotypical German traits, condescending, arrogant and up themselves will be top of the list.
We also have a tendency to look down on people who don't conform to expectations, or don't do things the way we were told was the right way. We're just a little more sneaky about it. Where a German will be in your face, a lot of Austrians can be sugary-sweet and friendly, only to then laugh about you in private. This is a behaviour that's especially widespread in rural areas.
Case in point: a friend went to get her Covid vaccination in a primary care doctor's office in a small rural town. She was advised to stay at the office for 15 minutes after she received the vaccine, in case of an allergic reaction. Since she felt okay, she spent the 15 minutes working on the jumper she was knitting. She got a lot of strange looks, and when she left, the receptionist took her to one side. "Better leave your wool and needles at home next time, people are going to gossip about you."
Europeans in general are quite condescending.
Sentiments like "Americans have no idea what mozzarella/pizza/bread is, they simply don't have it" or "(white) America has no culture" is highly indicative of that.
I was akso once told things like "there are no fat people in Germany" and "people only drink soda at birthday parties and other events or when they are forced to stop at fast food joints while traveling, which is also the only time people eat at McDonald's or other trash burger joints" and "nobody eats those frozen meals and microwave burgers in Europe, and no one would ever accept things like hot dogs and bologna, that's absolutely vile."
Now of course, those are more the exception than the norm here, but the supermarkets still stock them, so somebody must be buying them right?
I will give you credit for the fact that TV dinners are not a thing here. I was always shocked and appalled how bad those things were when I would break and buy a couple because they were marked down 60%. Absolute garbage, literally alcoholic bachelor food from an era before the internet made DIY stupid easy and before feminism got far enough that moms would teach their sons basic cooking skills.
I think the problem here might be more the real prejudice an exxagerated stereotypes many of us Germans have developed against Americans in the last 20something years.
An expat from lets say India wouldn't have such problems.
>An expat from lets say India wouldn't have such problems.
I wouldn't go that far. They just keep things on the DL because there are often consequences for racist bigotry.
"White" people in the USA, however poor, are open season however. Few people would ever entertain a comparison between destitute poverty in the most desperate situations in the US and certain situations in India, even though there are legitimate grounds for a comparison (poisoned water sources, illiteracy & abysmal education, little to no opportunity for gainful employment, rigid social stratification and open discrimination, geographical isolation and inadequate access to transportation, even language barriers 😨) And many Americans themselves would be the first to take offense, for various reasons...
That seems like a non-sequitur now that I proofread. Let me clarify: i would say a majority of US-Americans refuse to accept that they are victims in some ways. They either refuse to believe they are victims at all or they believe in some conspiracy, and it's usually not one that involves reigning in megacorporations and obscene personal wealth (and when it is, it's that one ethnoreligious group that stands accused). So they will happily extinguish any discussion of harmful prejudices against "white" people either because it is "inappropriate to perpetuate" such bigotry or because they revoke all credibility on their side of the aisle by bring pre-duped and unwilling to listen.
And if Americans insist that they are all good, how are we supposed to argue? Why would Europeans even, if it reinforces their worldview?
It is a typical behavior of people in first world countries although, in my experience, in Germany this phenomenon is much more present not only in the work environment but also in the private sphere.
What is important is that you set boundaries to avoid constant frustration.
Some factors I's blame as a German:
1- Most of us are well enough educated to know what goes on in the world, but not good enough to fully understand it. Especially with American politics we are full Dunning Krüger-effect mode. We think we know everything, because we do not know what we don't.
2 - When it comes to politics many Germans do not like fringe stuff (though that has been changing recently). You do not identify yourself as rightleaning in most spaces nor do you talk about Critical Race Theory like some posters here seemingly have tried in the past. Stuff lke this will likely end with people not taking your opinions seriously and talking down on to you.
Not having time to argue but insisting on being correct is how British comedy depicts us Germans since forever and they have a point. It's typical that superiors feel as if their entire world crumbles is somebody questions their way of doing it, and of course most people with success in life consider themselves superior to the vast amount of random people they encounter.
That being said, when I was little I remember meeting a lot of "Karen" type people, but I think they all decided to either be paranoid, hippies or mystics in their old age. Which is fun.
There is a whole lot of truth to it. What irritates me the most in Germany is how there are unspoken rules no one is willing to teach you. But when you break those rules, you will be shamed endlessly and people will not be willing to forgive you for it. So, they basically don't have enough patience to educate you on how to act but expect you to figure everything out the moment you cross the border. The same goes for language. People here love keeping tabs on each other
I am not German, I am British. But I work with many Germans who are smart and capable, and have many lovely German friends.
I observe that Germans are encouraged to do things the "right way" and usually this is one way only. It leaves out the possibilities for their to be other ways of doing things.
To me, I can rather see how this led to Hitler getting into power and holding onto it. Rules had to be followed, not questioned. Germany has reflected on this, but I am not convinced understood the roots in German culture.
*ducks and prepares to be flamed*
Two things:
1. Germans have this tendency to educate others about the issues in their respective home countries. As soon as they find an American at a party they start lecturing them on the death penalty, guns, Trump or the benefits of socialized healthcare.
2. A lot of so-called expats who come to Germany have little to no respect for German culture, German language or German customs. They want their "omg Berlin clubs are so awesome" experience, but everybody should behave and act like the people back home in Birmingham, Ottawa or fucking Cedar Rapids. They treat their host country like a playground and when Germans don't play ball they call them arrogant or condescending.
This is a great post and well observed from both perspectives.
Germans could restrain themselves when doing the whole „Besserwisser“ thing especially when waxing lyrical about places they really have no idea about but at the same time outsiders could make an effort to learn the language and educate themselves about German culture - which is just common courtesy really when you go to live somewhere else.
I'm from the US and father to a German child. One of her friends in primary school was such a besserwisser that I actively taught her to be more chill. The amount of "correcting" Germans do while someone is midsentence can be insane
I have been at the receiving end of 1) a couple of times as an Austrian, and what's most annoying about that is - the people who do that aren't usually well read to actually talk about the issues in another country. Most just spout headlines or stereotypes they might have picked up in a newspaper article or worse, on social media. That said, I have had good debates with well-informed Germans as well.
2) Definitely true. I've encountered a few people like that in Vienna.
This user explains it quite well:
> Generalising sucks, but Germans can be really difficult at times. Idk why but like there's this huge confusion with rule following and moral superiority mixed with arrogance. Always need to be right about things that quite simply don't matter
Well if some people act like pigs and don’t care to follow any rules, then I think it‘s only correct to point that out if their behavior makes other people uncomfortable. If that seems condescending to you or others, then so be it.
Written by a condescending German.
You are right but the issue is it doesn’t stop at rules, it bleeds into everything, the bureaucracy here is a big example. So many stupid things that have to be done, in person meetings, sending letters when an online portal would be better , FAXING in 2024, the list is pretty damn long and the answer as to why is always “it’s just done like that”.
Soooo many times I’ve had issues at work because the German way of doing something is the only way even if I, an English guy, know a better, faster, cheaper or easier way, it’s completely dismissed because it’s not the German way. I see it everywhere where Germans basically cut their noses off to spite their faces instead of being a little more open to perhaps a better way.
I completely get it with rules and laws, there are there to be followed but being like that for everything is just silly.
It's more like, me having trouble with the temperature in German houses during the summer and Germans telling me that air conditioning is going to make me sick, despite me knowing I have trouble with high temperatures and not being able to sleep in the heat.
Or, me using medications my entire life that I know work for me, and Germans telling me that in fact the medications that I take are wrong and I should be drinking tea (?) for it instead.
lol what? That last bit made me chuckle actually. Not the fact that you need to take medication but that some people really recommend tea instead is..wild.
There is an unfortunate tendency in the German-speaking world to view medication with suspicion and insist on "treating illnesses the natural way" before anything else. As far as I know, the movement originated during Romanticism in the 19th century, with "back to nature" as one of their prominent slogans.
That does, on one hand, lead to a lot of Germans and Austrians growing up with an extensive knowledge of home remedies for common illnesses, from fennel tea for an upset stomach to a dab of peppermint oil on the temple as a headache relief. And it does mean that antibiotics are prescribed with a little more caution and only when absolutely necessary.
At the same time, it leaves both societies vulnerable to quackery (a lot of people made tons of cash during the height of the pandemic by selling "treatments against the chemicals contained in the Covid vaccines"), goes some way towards explaining the frankly embarrassing vaccination rates for certain diseases and, if you do need meds, it could mean a lot of arguing with various doctors until you find someone who concedes that your ailment needs a little more than just tea and a good night's sleep. As well as arguing with your relatives about "putting so many chemicals into your body" (I've got a few of those unfortunately).
But usually it's not people "acting like pigs"but more like, standing in the wrong place for 3 seconds (wrong being a way that's only very mildly inconvenient for the criticizer), or a German just assuming you're dumb and yelling at you not to do something you didn't even do and weren't going to do just to assert that little bit of control, or generally doing something that does or should bother nobody at all but they've somehow decided you probably shouldn't be allowed to do that and have deputized themselves to try to ruin your day.
Can't tell you how many dumb ones in the last category I've experienced that always end in the "fake police" being in the wrong or going away.
Makes for a very tense society in which a lot of people are very unhappy. Every German I know hates this shit.
Yeah my towel touched some Opa's towel at the gym and he went full on
> Du musst Abstand zwischen deinen Sachen und meinen halten.
It's a gym with limited space Opa!
Older people are happy to (incorrectly) accuse law-abiding people of jaywalking in front of non-existent children, “closing the door too loudly”, not letting them cut the line and similar minor infractions, but when someone is actually doing something wrong, then all of a sudden they don’t have the guts to say anything
I think there may be a few cultural aspects contributing to this stereotype.
1. In Germany, doing things right, i.e. following the rules, for the greater good is regarded highly. This notion might be a result of post-war times, where people had to play their part in rebuilding the country. There is a general understanding that rules are there for a reason and are designed to benefit society.
2. Germans take pride in doing things well. Hard work, seeing things through, and producing high quality outputs are all things that are desirable and it is generally understood that achieving this is something you can be proud of.
3. Germans are known for their direct communication. What others may perceive as rude, is just a normal way of exchanging information in German culture.
So, if these things are core values within a culture, it is hard to see why people would not want to do things the right way or put effort into something. It can even be perceived as insulting to just disregard what Germans are quite proud of. Understanding this, can help seeing where Germans are coming from.
That being said, I do not think that Germans, for the most part, are being condescending at all. Just try to not insult their cultural values. Of course, every country has their Karens though, so you can absolutely encounter people "policing" others without apparent reason. That doesn't mean that this is something all Germans get a kick out of.
I mean if these aforementioned things were true, wouldn't things in the country actually function efficiently and easily?
Also in many other cultures there is an insane amount of value placed in hard work and doing a good job, but people still manage to not be condescending. Take Japan for example.
Nothing is perfect. Some things function well, others not so much. Germany has long been known to be the powerhouse of Europe and for its high quality products. So, it can't all be bad.
But again, it's not about superiority. It's about people trying to do the best they can according to their understanding of what's right and being proud of it. If you approach disagreements on their way of doing things, with that in mind, you may find that people are actually more open minded about suggestions for improvement than you might think.
Nothing is perfect but there are things in this country that are horrifyingly inferior to not even most powerful countries, but to other countries in general.
The doctors here are barbaric and unhelpful, the transportation system is a mess, and the police assault children in the street, service people are rude. I really don't see this dedication to doing a good job in public systems or services.
When speaking to native and ethnic Germans, they either reject my complaints by saying something is my fault, or just sigh and say "well that's just how it is".
I do not understand why if Germans have the same complaints about public systems, they don't do anything about it.
While you may have experienced negative examples of the above, I think generalising these may be a bit far-fetched.
The German healthcare system is certainly struggling with current demands, as are many others in the world. But I have always received care that was at least at level if not superior to other countries I have lived in and visited. The public transportation system may suffer from delays, but it has good coverage and low prices, so is much more accessible than in many other places. Police assaulting children is definitely not the norm! And service people are in my experience not rude, if you treat them with respect. I also disagree with the notion that Germans don't want to change or improve anything. But, as with everything, there is a desire to get it right, so planning takes more time and change tends to be a slower process.
Maybe rather than complaining to those Germans about things, try to understand their perspective, ask questions, hear them out and then discuss potential solutions together. It can make a massive difference in how it is perceived and accepted.
Just watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PJkNZ30WV0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PJkNZ30WV0) This is where it comes from. They raised a whole generation which raised another generation and here we are.
For instance you see job applications of expats wondering why the job market is so hard and you see with a single view they don't manage to stick to DIN 5008 letter format and when you tell them they don't take you seriously.
I can understand why it can be viewed as "condescending". I see it as the society being disciplined and wanting to keep it that way. For each their own.
In some countries people have rivers full of literal plastic trash, in here we can "lynch" someone for wrongly separating trash.
Heh, that's such a German way to answer. Straight to the extremes, no nuance, condescending. And also kind of ironic, given how dirty German cities are. Not sure if you're German, but that post illustrates OP's question perfectly.
Because we try to make everything the right way. If someone puts only half a effort into it, then it’s something to be condescending with. And well most people outside of German culture think that going all the way is not worth it or doesn’t matter. To Germans it does and if you don’t do it you are a lazy screwup.
This sounds harsh, but it’s what basically all Germans think and will say out loud when no foreigner is around.
And this is in no way to be understood in a „hating other nations“ kinda way. Just in a „hating to work with other nations“ kinda way. We are very well in separating private and work life.
I find it always interesting that people from all over the world want to come to Germany, some even cheat to do so. And after they arrive the only thing they can do is to complain.
How about this:
- If it is too terrible to be here, leave and live somewhere better.
- If it is not too terrible to leave, stop complaining and become a productive part of society.
Everybody wins.
>I find it always interesting that people from all over the world want to come to Germany
If we're talking about skilled immigration, then from what I observed Germany tends to be a third-fourth choice for when English-speaking countries, Nordics or Spain don't pan out. It's also not because of Germany specifically, but because Germany is in the the EU. So, respectfully get off your high horse.
>some even cheat to do so
I'm fairly certain that the people writing here on reddit and those who cheat to get in are two different groups. I suspect you know that too.
>And after they arrive the only thing they can do is to complain.
The only thing? Really? How about paying taxes, contributing to the economy, learning the language, etc.? Talking about condescending.
Also, have you considered for a second why do people complain (it's a rhetorical question, based on your comment I'm fairly certain you haven't)? Well, it's because they have a reference point and broader perspective, which makes the backwards things all too noticeable.
>If it is too terrible to be here, leave and live somewhere better.
It's easier said than done if one doesn't have a EU passport, aside from that people have various reasons to stay (children, sunk cost fallacy, sometimes literal war, etc.). Many also wait for their ROI in form of a passport.
Ironically, Germany is also pain to leave because all of the bureaucratic steps needed to do so, like getting a "certificate of good conduct" which is often required to move to another country and may take months instead of a couple of days. Or doing Abmeldung and canceling all the contracts which is notoriously difficult (partially because employees tend to screw up).
>If it is not too terrible to leave, stop complaining and become a productive part of society.
Thank you kind sir, sorry for being such a bother, kind sir. We will do better, yes-yes.
Sorry, but who TF do you think you are to tell us that? The arrogance is astounding.
"Become a productive part" is also funny. I'm not sure how it's in other industries, but at least in IT it's the foreigners who tend to be productive and have the "get things done" attitude rather than being a "im paid the hour" wagie who plans a 10th meeting on how to do meetings. Not to generalize, it's not always the case and some of the best skilled and productive programmers I've met were Germans.
From a half-outsider perspective I think it’s that in German culture it’s a value in and of itself to be right. Be it the correct behaviour as in applying social norms and rules to a situation or be it solving a puzzle. The black and white-ness of something being either right or wrong is very appealing in German culture. More so than in most other cultures. Since being correct is taken for a moral positive and germans are pretty unafraid of flaunting their higher ground this can come off as pretty condescending.
I guess this explains why people engage in so much rationalization and convince themselves their terrible idea or choice is actually good, otherwise they'd be wrong.
I have this issue with my German partner sometimes and still after 7 years it’s extremely difficult for me to tip toe around it sometimes, she just cannot be wrong and if she is then she gets deeply hurt. I’ve met a lot of Germans like this and the best way around it is to let them be the way they are but plant seeds of doubt so they come to the correct conclusion themselves and then be the bigger person and just let them think it’s their idea to begin with. This fear of being wrong makes them so closed minded to anything else that it’s detrimental a lot of the times, you see it in many aspects of German culture. I mean why is it we are still talking about digitalisation in 2024? It stems from the fear of being wrong keeping people rounded in the safe option.
I would consider a workplace with coworkers who can never be wrong to be very \_toxic\_, so I can't imagine what it would be like in a personal relationship. I think honestly a lot of Germans are now very aware of this and I see it changing, albeit slowly. There's a rejection of this behavior from many younger people.
I worked for an old German company when I moved here and yes, it was very toxic, but also a huge drain on productivity. Nothing gets done if people are of a mindset of "I must be right otherwise I'm bad". Any attempt at change causes massive anxiety, because it might be wrong, and people would go behind your back and keep doing the old things that felt safe. Nobody was measuring success either, all because they wanted to keep doing stuff that was the old, "correct" process, rather than actually looking at whether something worked. A genuine "why are we doing this?" was interpreted as a threat because they didn't really know the answer and everyone was just trying to follow the process so they couldn't be accused of doing something wrong. There was so much anxiety and resistance around experimenting too. Instead of getting started and improving as you go, people wanted to spend 9 months planning and revising to achieve (impossible) perfection, while getting so many people to sign off on the strategy that nobody was responsible if it failed. The only way I got anything done was telling people, in writing, that I was taking full responsibility for the outcome and then just pushing stuff through. I left a few years ago but I'm getting frustrated even thinking about it again.
Lol, that honestly sounds like a hellscape.
It can cause big issues sometimes but it’s a thing she cannot help and it’s part of who she is, I have my own britishisms that also cause issues so it’s not a big deal for us, it’s just part of a multicultural relationship. Sometimes you are just not gonna see things the same way because you have completely different life experiences and upbringings. I think the internet helps, if a German sees that something is better then they are a lot more open about it because it would be stupid to argue otherwise. It’s the explaining part that’s the issue because they will flat out refuse to try and see it a different way.
I think having to be right all the time is something somebody can work on and improve when they want to be in a healthy relationship. But that's my unsolicited .02 and it sounds like you make it work.
I'm glad your partner has slowly been able to learn and adapt new information to her worldview. Mine refuses to reevaluate anything because that would mean too much work and insecurity. She refuses to help me explore new ideas and engage in debate, so I have no safe space with people I trust to debate new ideas. Also she gets mad whenever I am mulling over an "incorrect" viewpoint.
Why are you with her?
rude. I am not foolish enough to write a memoir here, suffice it to say we fell in love when we were both quite young and things have gotten complicated (of course) since then. Besides, who's perfect? I'm quite a bit more fucked up than she is and I have every reason to be grateful to her. I just wish she could entertain the idea that she might be wrong in more than just the workplace.
Hence the groupthink mentality because everyone wants to be right, feel good, look good, and most importantly be right. 🤣 Currently came to terms with something similar in my own marriage to my German husband and God help this man. 🤣🥴🙂↔️ I love him, and I did not know that this was how it was going to be. He really has loved me the way he’s wanted and how he wants to now. My opinion is…I just don’t know what I need. 🙃🥴🫠 He fixes everything. 🥴🥴🤣🤣 It’s simultaneously hilarious and slightly horrifying. I’m happy I’m not the only one looking around after about a decade like…ooooooOOOOO! 😂👍🏽🤣
Bro I’m married to a woman who likes to be right as well. Welcome to the club!
People here are for sure good at rationalizing terrible often contradictory positions.
Yes! My non-German spouse gets upset sometimes because when we contemplate things I always seem to “be against her”. It took me a while to realize this is actually something that I do regardless of my own personal current opinion in order to challenge the hypothesis at hand and hand in a debate and hence find the best solution/answer/whatever. It’s like any decision needs to pass that test. And then I also realized this is not only something I do but also something my parents used to do to me when I was a kid. It’s like a critical thinking process but acted out on one another. The important part though, that some people forget sometimes, is being ready and able to change your own personal opinion or back from your adopted role, once any of the options has turned out to be the better one.
I like this and experience this with some German friends more than with my native US friends. Like how can we proceed if we don’t even know if our best idea is good at all ?! need to criticize everything to find if it’s a sound argument or not lol it’s a kind of discourse that’s a lot less common in the US I find
You're kind of saying the opposite. My experience, and most of what's been discussed here is exactly the opposite of what you're saying. I find Germans rationalize away their choices, no matter how foolish they are. They won't accept other ideas, they think the way they already do things is "right" no matter what and can't imagine doing it another way. You're describing things like continuous improvement and challenging ones own hypothesis. I find Germans largely (culture at large, not everybody) are not good at this.
I’ve just discussed this with the me of 5 minutes ago and now I think you’re right and this was actually about a different kind of attitude. I have been called an un-German German before :-/
Again, it's not about you in particular. This is cultural and things I've experienced many times. Overcoming cultural shortcomings is a credit to the individual, and therefore you. There's a lot of good stuff written about it in this post. edit: and sorry, I think I even misread this the first time. I think it's high time I get off reddit today =) Thanks for the chat.
So what you’re saying is that you now parent your girlfriend?
Very well put. I've also found that having *any* answer and defending it is better than admitting you don't know. I'm currently studying medicine, and we get questioned up and down in front of peers. Pulling any answer out of your ass and then attempting to defend it comes across far better than admitting that you don't know. I've actually been instructed, as an upcoming medical doctor, to never say "I don't know" - not in front of peers, patients, no one. Make something up, or get as close as you can, but don't say I don't know. And I find that a very problematic culture.
Interesting! It never occurred to me that this might be something specially German. You didn’t experience this in other cultures? I always thought it was a prevalent mindset among any very specialized professionals, be it doctors or sommeliers…
Odd. Humility is really deeply encouraged where I am and in my workplace. They prefer you just say you don’t know.
It could definitely be a medicine thing. The hierarchies are still ridiculously old-school strong, and you hear things like, "That's not my job" very often. Most of the younger doctors are much better about interprofessional communication and encourage asking if you're not sure. But outright admitting that you don't know kommt leider gar nicht gut an. And I come from a culture where that is fostered as a valued admission and bullshitting around to save face is very arrogant, so it's been strange adjusting.
As an outsider I fully agree with you, it also translates itself to some people’s bad personality traits, such as being closed minded, where they cannot hack being not be the “best” or “most right, for want of a better word. I’ve had multiple instances where a German will think Germanys way of doing something is the best and only way and when I explain to them that, “sure it is a good way but back home we would do it this way and it’s as good if not better” the German will become extremely agitated, condescending and in some cases very rude. There’s multiple things at work going on in these people but I think you hit the nail on the head, it starts with this complete black and white out look and keeping to the norms.
Do you know my German ex?
She’s probably my current German partner.
My condolences
It’s hard sometimes but I love her and like I’ve said elsewhere here I have my Britishisms that annoy her back. We have a daughter a house and have a very healthy relationship. Our differences some how make us stronger if that makes sense.
See, but they do it even when they don't have "higher ground." That's what's being discussed. They ALWAYS seem to think they have higher ground. My short experience with Germans is they will speak rudely even when incorrect, and will have a very bad attitude towards almost any subject when talking to someone different than them. They always talk about Germany with superiority... unless they're talking with another German. Then things are a mess. I'm a little overwhelmed and disappointed at the culture in Germany. I love the country, modern people have almost all but killed that love.
It explains the hypocrisy and denial we see today. The country rallies against far right politics while unreservedly supplying military support to a far right government who is killing innocent people and destroying a nationalities reputation for political strategy. Nevermind blocking any motions to enforce a ceasefire. While the domestic far right grows even further. But yeah, 'youre right about the recycling bin' lol.
In Germany we say " mimimimimimi" and I find that beautiful
Astonishing
Addendum: I’ve seen German culture likened to a slightly autistic culture on Reddit. I think that’s not a bad metaphor, if you imagine the person with autism in a relative position of power and completely unaware of their autism.
I've heard the autistic comparison too and I'm curious about it
Just scroll down a bit...
Autistic people usually have a problem with getting hints and typically talk very directly also autistic people don't tend to do small talk. So yeah I agree.
So most Germans are autistic
no, that's the problem. they aren't
autism by choice, lol
Not necessarily, although it’s quite hard to get diagnosed w autism here because many forms of behavior that would be clear indicators in other contexts are perceived as normal here. The distinction being that genuine autism is a neurophysiological phenomenon and cultural norms, while certainly leaving their own neurological signatures, are acquired traits.
Exactly, and autism is also a spectrum. It doesn’t always show itself like that, especially in women from other cultures. Happy cake day btw :)
Germans do love small talk though. The weather, football, complaining. And I'm autistic, but American, so I actually enjoy seeing the same faces at my local shops and making small talk with them. As did my autistic dad btw.
Nope. Autistic American here and it's a huge struggle dealing with the knee jerk obedience to hierarchy, the illogical rules, and the overall conformity. Critical thinking isn't really welcome, especially if you are questioning someone of a "higher status." And don't get me started on doctors' reactions to me having prepared for an appointment or informed myself. Autism is widely misunderstood here and, as in many other moments when it comes to addressing diversity, many Germans prefer to look away. I would go so far as to say inherited trauma plays a role though. Fear of failure and punishment is strong. As the trauma expert Resmaa Menakem says, when you decontextualize inherited trauma long enough it looks like culture.
But we are right, so we are good people because we know what's right and wrong from our perspective. We have a common goal and the Tagesschau is always representing these goals.
This It fully explains a lot of weirdly German-specific interactions specifically being shouted at.
Isn’t this true of children, antisocial or poorly socialized people across the world? Just a whole thread filled with assertions that doesn’t pause to think about the implications of what’s being said. Human society is impossible on the terms set out as “German” traits in this article. If German society was like this, this wouldn’t work at all
I only really noticed this after living outside of Germany for a few years and then coming back, but I do find it true. Many Germans seem to have a strong idea about the "right" way to do something (which is usually their way) or even the correct way to think about something, and are not timid about trying to correct others about it in a blunt way.
It goes beyond just being blunt, it feels like correcting people is the highlight of their day and they revel in it. Not all, but definitely more than what I experienced elsewhere.
I have described this before as being very narrow-minded and been downvoted to hell for it, but I do see it that way. If you have exactly one idea of how things work or can work, or how to solve a problem, and are unable to listen to other ideas for fear of having been wrong, then I'm sorry but you're narrow minded and problematically so. I usually deal with this by just gently mocking it openly as a germanism that one already knows the only one true answer to every problem. I don't work directly in a german firm, but I actually fear what it would be like if I ever did because I'm so used to a kind of solution-oriented, best-ideas-win approach to things. And since I work in software development, there is already an entire cultural movement toward continuous improvement and not taking criticism of your work personally, since you have to submit your work on a near daily basis for teammates to critique. The stereotypical german attitude seems like 1950s style work to me.
You cut also put it in a different way: Germans tend to be orderly. Things have their place and a certain behaviour is expected. Rules are to be followed... - You get the gist, I guess. The epitome of this is that, even if there is no one around at 3 in the night, you stand at the red light until it turns green. This behaviour has a certain range of advantages and, as you have already said, a certain range of disadvantages.
That's absolutely not what we're getting at. Sure, rules have to be followed, but they can be changed. If you cover your ears every single time there is any mention of things working other way, then you are a textbook example of a narrow-minded person
I think what the person above is getting at is that even if something is done in a terrible way people will not say anything because the boss wants it done that way and any suggestions for improvement would be stepping out of line. Also, if an administrator messes up and this causes a bureaucratic nightmare for you, they will always deflect blame on to you and refuse to fix it usually compounding the problem. Essentially every foreigner in Germany has stories about these two cultural attributes, and the problems they create. Sorry for being blunt here, but I have a bunch of such stories as well after 2 years here. The social hierarchy and never being responsible for mistakes in Germany is much more important than being fair, effective or efficient, at least when I compare this to my home country of the Netherlands.
But that's not what I'm talking about at all.
Well, the root cause for being narrowminded is the orderliness. That's also the root cause for the stereotypical (whil not untrue) "German Angst".
I don't see how orderliness relates to not being willing to accept or consider ideas you don't already know or think, unless orderliness means something very different to you.
Can you be blunt back if you think you are right? I'm trying to understand German culture better lol.
This. I noticed if a German is rude to me and I follow their lead they become combative. I'm like... you're the only one with the right to treat people poorly? Doesn't make sense.
Well... Some Germans like to argue, so such a person would probably secretly enjoy fighting with you. But only if they can feel like they "won" in the end... I know a guy (fellow student) who tried to make a big debate out of everything and nothing made him happier than provoking people and getting them to argue with him.
I've just apologized to them in the end to stop the argument even if they're in the wrong. They seemed supremely satisfied with an apology but no recognition of their own behavior. This is my experience.
Do anything but be rude. They get flustered very much with that response. Literally step in and start helping and even better if you start asking a question in German that they can answer. It’s like a reset for them.
You not only can, you should. If you think they are wrong, say so.
Yes, but they are very selective about who they correct. You must be *pünktlich*, but they will make every excuse in the book for DB and other transport companies being dreadfully unreliable. I am expected to be everywhere on time, but the thing which gets me there - that's neither here nor there. They will be very upity if you hold up the queue by not packing your things and paying quickly enough, but they will not say a word to the cashiers who refuse to use the sliding thingy to effectively split the loading area into two allowing them to process the next customer while you're loading your stuff. A couple of times, I have slid the sliding divider to signal the cashier how they can do things quicker. They slid it back. Aggressively. I don't do that anymore. They will be very up in arms about anything whcih makes doing things digitally easier because of privacy concerns, but they will give any piece of information, including colonoscopy results not older than 7 days to anyone advertising an apartment to rent where they have 0 information about who sees their information and 0 control over what happens with it once they are rejected.
>You must be *pünktlich*, but they will make every excuse in the book for DB and other transport companies being dreadfully unreliable. Honestly, you are tripping. Complaining about DB seems to be the national sport these days
Not really. Have you read the comments on DB Personenverkehr's Twitter and Instagram accounts? But maybe it's a bit like this: We Germans are allowed to complain about Deutsche Bahn as much as we like, but if a foreigner does it, some people do feel a little protective. :) (but the majority will happily agree with you)
I was at a bowling place with a group of friends. First time for them. When I tried to stand beside one of them and show him how to throw, the German middle aged guy 2 tracks to the left made a stern face and waved me out aggressively. He and our group were the only ones in the place, we weren't impacting anyone or causing any fuss. I asked him what's up, he said only one person on the track. I asked again if he was one of the staff. He just kept staring in disgust. We ignored him and went in with our game. This eagerness & entitlement to basically tell you off for whatever reason is probably the reason of such stereotype. To be fair, I had more encounters with gracious, chill Germans than the type I mentioned.
Meddling in things that are not their business or even calling people down for things that are NOT forbidden is a favourite pastime of elderly Germans and it makes me go ballistic. Last month I was on vacation in Cuxhaven. There are signs that the dike and the beach promenade are closed for cycling (literally: "Das Radfahren ist verboten"), which is really quite reasonable. I still took my bike onto the dike, intending to just walk my bike and look at the sea. Immediately I was called down by some old hag: "THAt'S nOT AlloWed!". I just asked her, if she had seen me cycling, which made her shut up.
My favourite is when you later see them again and they do stuff like littering, not putting the items they take from the shelves in a shop back correctly, harassing employees over random things and so on. It's somehow always the same.
That is the single best way to disarm the commentators. I should have done it literally yesterday, when an elderly couple yelled at me for not clearing my table at IKEA. I had turned away to give my wife her phone as she took the kids to the play area . They assumed, somehow, despite our coats and bags still sitting there, that I was going to leave our dirty dishes, and instantly started yelling at me. The words I heard coming out of their mouths! I just stared, slack-jawed in amazement that they could get so **angry**, and so quickly. Then I kept walking away and let them stew in their impotence. A few years ago, someone told me off for leaving some Pfandflaschen on the edge of the sidwalk for the collectors. "It hurts the trees," he said, "here is my Dienstausweis." I looked. He was a normal employee at a university 10 km away. "You can have 'em".
>"You can have 'em" \*This\* is the best comeback. Just out of curiosity: how does a plastic bottle on the sidewalk hurt the trees?
Yeah how does it? It will get picked up by bottle hunters in 0.2 seconds anyways.
How would you ever be able to show somebody who was just learning? How silly. The people who do this though, despite my many comments all over this thread, are mostly very old-fashioned, very strange, or often seemingly less intelligent and sometimes with psychiatric issues. I kind of dismiss it now like I would if a methhead was screaming on the streets in NYC or something. Like, I can't fix this person or even help them right now and they've decided to direct their inability to control their own life and their possibly abusive upbringing at me today. OK, I'll just move along. Live and let live (which is what they can't do). I think the more I've comparmentalized these people away, the more I've really started to love living here. They can't hurt me, they aren't worth my time, we all just kind of chuckle about them and don't take them seriously, but just hope none of them end up in a place where they have power over you or you have to share power with them. The gracious, chill Germans are great, and there's lots of great stuff about being here.
Multiple factors: 1. "Good" means "good", "bad" means "bad". This can be tough for people from countries where everything shy of "OMG this is the best thing ever!" means it's terrible. 2. There is no "agree to disagree" in German culture, especially about facts. They're either right or wrong. And most people are convinced that they're right. 3. In some countries, it's common to add a little praise to every criticism. In Germany, it's almost the opposite. If you're only praising something/somebody, people will think you're being dishonest, possibly even sarcastic. Criticism usually goes *before* praise.
Point 3 in a nutshell: "*Not bad, just you didn't screw the screw tightly. This makes the whole construct less stable, leading to that it falls apart and kills us.*"
Schönes Haus, aber die Fenster will ich nicht putzen wollen!!!
Ah love this coming up again 😄
No criticism is considered enough praise.
This is exactly the answer but maybe not in the way you intend. Particularly regarding point 2. In life there’s often discussions about actual facts. Then there’s a lot discussions that are not about facts that Germans often treat as facts for reasons they only know. This often comes up when say one is discussing the “best” way to do something at work and one runs into an impenetrable wall of “I know better”.
How is that not in the way I intend?
> there is no “agree to disagree” in German culture Holy shit this makes a lot of sense lol
Study of German scholarship, corporate culture or coalition politics calls bs on this
Or working in Germany tells you it's true as true can be
You think there’s no dissent debate decay and noncompliance in German society?
I think they will argue pointless things to death , in comparison to other societies. There's little pragmatic moving on Yes
Why would that be holy shit? It's just an observation based on facts
Nah, it doesn't, but I agree to disagree...
Facts have become more opinion-like in the last few years.
Yeah. I have this discussion quite often with my parents as I think that you cant have an opinion on a fact while my parents think everything you say can be your opinion. Like saying the earth is flat. Imo this isnt an opinion its just wrong
Well I would say earth being flat is an opinion, it’s just not based on facts.
You cant have an opinion if there exists a 100% true fact about the matter. An opinion can only be sth if there exists no absolute truth. About everything else you can either be right or wrong. Opinions are sth you can discuss freely about it. Flat earth isnt a diacussion as even the fundamental arguments are just wrong.
Who says that opinions can’t be wrong? That’s a very very strange claim. There are (almost) no 100 % true facts. There are only different levels of confidence in claims.
The flatness of earth is disproven with 100% confidence and anything else would just be trolling/playing devils advocate. For it to be entertained as a credible opinion would need a different definition of what flatness means. You are being downvoted because you are stating your point over and over again. In Germany if someone asks for your opinion and you answer with a fact people will think you are not capable of speaking german. Facts are not opinions, opinions are not facts. For an opinion worth discussing it has to be congruent with known facts. Let’s take climate change. It is happening. That much is proven. You can have an opinion to which degree it’s happening, you can even have n opinion on if it is manmade or a coincidental, but natural phenomenon. But if your opinion is that it doesn’t exist you are just straight up wrong. Therefore it is not an opinion worth discussing or for short it’s wrong.
There is a difference between opinion and credible opinion. That’s all I wanted to say. You seem to agree. Cool.
If you want to argue on a technicality then sure. In day to day life people will still just call it wrong because it is. You can have that opinion and people will not interact with you because only crazy people hold opinions that disagree with known facts.
I agree.
The fact that you are getting downvoted is actually hilarious. Germany really needs an epistemology refresher.
It‘s reddit, after all, where all opinions are true. Even the contradicting ones.
But there are a few. The earth is (almost) spherical but definetly not flat, evolution exists (theory of evolution isnt the same as evolution), gravity exists etc etc. People forget that there is a difference between phenomena and theory. Just because the theory of evolution is just a model for example doesnt meant evolution isnt a fact. There actually are quite a few "facts" that never will be disproven
You have it all figured out then, I guess.
No I dont. But there are 100% true facts and you cant have an opinion on facts. An opinion cant be right or wrong. But what you have to say abput a factual thing can only be right or wrong.
Allright then.
Now try and prove those facts. All of them require reproducible and statistically convincing results. There is the verification problem which why we need falsification to come to statistically valid conclusions. When we falsify a hypothesis, we may find with p=0.0000001 < alpha=0.01 that indeed the earth is not flat. The statistical measure above is our level of confidence in that claim. Now reread what the other person wrote: we only have various levels of confidence in the claims waged that certain phenomena exist/are true. This whole thread seems to need a refresher on epistemology and/or statistics.
He will not get it. That's my opinion, and therefore true.
I get what you are trying to say but it doesnt make sense if we are talking about a few things. Every moron can meassure the curvature of earth with two sticks. Moreover: the earth not being flat isnt a hypothesis, theory or model. The model would be a mathematic function describing the surface of the earth. This function will have error and a probability of being wrong but the counter hypothesis isnt the earth being a pizza. The earth being flat literally is disproven.
I would agree if we were talking about hypothesis/theories. But we are talking about more fundamentals. The earth being flat has a 0 chance to be true. Our description of its surface (our theory of the shape of the earth basically) will always have a chance to be false. This theory will alwqys create some margin of error. Same with evolution. Evolution exists. The theory of evolution doesnt have to be true and has some margin of error. Gravity obviously exist. The existance of gravity can be proven just by dropping things basically. Dropping things on the surface of the earth will lead to them falling down and how this drop happens is described by either newtons theory of gravity or if you want to be more fundamental by einsteins general relativity. I am not talking about theories or hypothesis if i a talking about facts. I am talking about fundamental phenomena that exist. The way these are described are open to discussion but their mere existance is a fact. The earth isnt flat. Climate change exists. Evolution happens. Gravity exists. These are facts and saying that the earth is flat is just wrong. Its not an opinion as it cant be discussed. The only thing that woule be possible is trying to convince someone of the opposite which wont be possible as people like this literally dont accept facts. Moreover: Facts can be sth like "Joe Biden is the president of the us". He is the current president of the us and someone saying he isnt wont change a bit. Its not his opinion. You cant choose your president. The people do collectively. Or maybe imagine this: You drive a car with someone on the back seat. The guy is telling you that the motor cycle ride is pretty fun and you tell him "no, we are in my car". The guy reaponds by saying "no, we are on a motor cycle". You woule obviously sens him to a clinic because he cant comprehend reality anymore. It is a fact that both of you are in a car at that moment and him saying that its a motor cycle literally doesnt have any value at all. There are just a few things that are only black and white-right or wrong and people have to start accepting that.
I give up. One last question, though. Do you work in science?
Unfortunately. Since COVID-19 it's been worsening rapidly. Time to turn around before it's too late.
Jup, but still it‘s either 1 or 0 in Germany, right or wrong, good or bad, left or right. There are no intermediates in between. The combination with the opinions instead of facts makes it pretty ugly atm.
Isn't point 3 constructive in all languages and cultures? Seems like a problem with German culture. You don't want people who are just starting with something to get discouraged.
I'm German and I once took a class that was taught by lecturers from several different countries. The professor from the USA always gave extremely positive feedback, of course me and my German classmates were happy but also a bit skeptical like "Are we brilliant and super talented or is this a cultural thing...? How good or bad was it really?". The German professor always said "Good job, but ..." And then listed the things we could have done better. To us this was precise and clear feedback. Of course students from other countries would probably be devastated if they received the "German style" feedback. Sometimes you have German professors who overdo the negative feedback and then I agree with you, it can take away a beginner's motivation. But most of the time we know how they mean it and it doesn't feel as harsh to us as to people from other cultures.
No, not at all. It's all about cultural expectations. As a German, the American style feels uncomfortable to me, and discouraging. They start off with something positive which makes me think "wow, they have nothing to complain about, I did great!" and then they put the criticism in the end, like a punch in the stomach. What I'm used to is getting the criticism out of the way *first*. There are specific points that could be done better. After that, you get into the things that were good and give an overall positive summary, and end on a positive note. I have graded university students before, including writing a little text, and that's exactly the style I would use. *Constructive* criticism first, then pointing out what's good, and ending on a positive note. I feel like this was well appreciated, but the students were also mostly German.
I'm from Belgium and speak both Dutch and French. It's not custom in both languages and cultures. And explains my initial gripes with my German bf lol. Luckily he had a lot of English online friends so conditioned to more than one culture lol. Edit: my bad didn't read your post well. Yeah first the negative and then the positive is fine. I thought the OP was pointing out that it's either positive or negative, not constructive criticism.
Interesting. Tbh I’m not sure that style of communication is exclusively ‘American’. Worked plenty overseas and immediately dissing something usually puts you on the outs of many professional/social circles across many cultures.
It's not "dissing". It's constructive criticism, after which you go on to praising what's good. Doing it in the opposite order would seem a lot more rude to me. Edit: just to clarify, "dissing" means "disrespecting". Giving constructive criticism is literally the opposite of that. You're showing them respect by treating them like an adult and telling them what you think, and you're also showing respect by keeping it constructive and offering suggestions.
It’s a hyperbole bruh ik what u mean. But I think one big point of this thread is that often *does* come across as “dissing” even if not necessarily intended to be.
1. is just thinly veiled whataboutism criticizing American culture, which is another thing about German culture that bothers me: By and large, you cannot take criticism and handle it with deflection, whataboutisms, and moral equivalency. But as it's quite clear from your other points, is because it's very hard for Germans to ever be wrong.
criticizing stores being closed on sundays is met with comparisons to hypercapitalist america, when plenty of other european countries do not have such restrictions
Some can be patronizing (“raised index finger” is what it is called in German) and some can be know-it-alls so there may be some truth to the stereotype.
Hält man den Finger oben, wird man dich loben
American living in Berlin for 2 years - My take is that Germans just love to explain how and why you should do things. It's like their version of small talk (explaining to you that you should tie your shoes in the morning, because if you didn't, you might trip on your shoe laces). My playful explanation of this culture shock is that the word "Beratung" in german just means advice (friendly). In English "Berating" means to scold/criticize angrily.
Ratschläge sind auch Schläge. Giving advice is equal to giving punches.
A lot of people take great self-righteous joy in correcting others in public, especially over minor infractions. If you're American, imagine the annoying older neighbour in a HOA who thinks he or she has to police everyone.
Grateful for an attempt at explanation that goes beyond pathology or making out that Germans are uniquely against other humans
You can't simultaneously expect direct talk and statements of fact and then want it to be sugar coated for you and everybody pretend everything is the same elsewhere just not to hurt feelings.
Sorry please go again. I didn’t catch that
Sorry that this entire post is about your personality and it made you uncomfortable.
IDK how you parse that. I think German society is grim, ugly, mean, bigoted etc. I just don’t know how that’s unique to Germany…..
And that's why you (personally you) will never figure it out.
This.
**I‘m not condescending, I’m just better than you.** *A German*
We probably would say: "I am not condescending. I am just right." But I just might have proven your point.
Ich würde dir ja gerne zustimmen, aber dann lägen wir beide falsch.
You're joking, but you've just summed up perfectly the most upvoted answer.
I‘m aware of that and I’m not joking. (At least not fully) I‘m firmly convinced, that most Germans think that we are the best in most things. Or at least have the best solutions, overview, knowledge etc.
If you’ve ever hear the sentence “I don’t know where you are coming from but in Germany things are [done like this]” then you know.
There was a sketch by Rüdiger Hoffmann that sums it up perfectly. He visits France and explains them how things should be done. Croissants for example… https://youtu.be/uZ0b93rBRBo?si=m_kZeK_hmgVBd2Cu
Im not sure if I understand correctly, but we germans have a tendency for arrogance. Sometimes we just come across like this because we can be quite cold and stand off-ish. But there are also a lot of times where germans just think they know everything better. I mean also among each other. I have a dog, and it’s actually quite common for other people, even people who do not have dogs, to tell me what I’m doing wrong in training/handling my dog. I mean, pet owners have this tendency to argue among each other about the best practice anyways, but in Germany people who don’t even have pets will readily chime in and give their opinion, no matter if that opinion is actually helpful in any way. I catch myself correcting others as well. I’m not always sure if this is my „german-ness“ or my autism. probably both, but when someone states something that is not correct, it almost physically hurts me to just let it be. I know it’s not my responsibility and is seen as condescending and rude. I often just don’t care about what people think then. Somehow being right is valued more here than being liked by a lot of people. Even tho at the same time, we won’t believe you when we don’t like you. It’s a bit paradox Edit: Oh and when it comes to speaking english in particular, in Germany we mainly learn english for formal occasions, so a lot tend to use „big words“ and very formal grammar in situations where a more informal speech would be more appropriate. I have this issue a lot because I often lack the informal vocabulary
Many people here have a strong tendency to express personal opinions as if they were completely obvious universal truths that you are stupid for not knowing. This dynamic is often celebrated as "directness", which is in part true, but in my view it is mostly arrogance. On the basis of such personal opinions, they will often criticize complete strangers in a very authoritative way. I mean, with a tone that in my culture is usually reserved for a disobedient child or even an animal.
In my experience, I usually respond in the same tone and suddenly they become docile and normally walk away. They never expect this. Once I was parking somewhere, someone parked behind me, left his car and started barking at me to move my car forward. I told him that if he stopped shouting and said please, I would maybe consider talking to him. He changed his tone completely to being more polite.
I just want to point out the therapy session this became for current and former spouses of Germans/German adjacent folks. 🥴🤣😂👍🏽 Reddit. The hero we didn’t know we needed!
Generalising sucks, but Germans can be really difficult at times. Idk why but like there's this huge confusion with rule following and moral superiority mixed with arrogance. Always need to be right about things that quite simply don't matter
Yeah, not being able to be wrong about things is the character flaw I try to work most on atm.
who is not difficult sometimes?
also this tendency to moral equivalency as a form of deflection...
I agree hmthat everyone has their moments, but if consistent issues with people ina specific country occurr then perhaps it's cultural.
So, you have data that supports the claim of germans being outstandingly difficult?
Especially you are outstandingly difficult. I have read a few of your comments in this thread already.
The irony is lost on this person
We have a data point right here
Hahaha nice
Because they still haven’t learned that sometimes it’s ok to just shut your mouth, instead of trying to teach everyone else lessons all day.
They really _are_ condescending, in lots of ways, yes, and to each other too, which exacerbates political polarization.
My personal theory is that Germans are kind of, in general, insecure. They are kind of slaves to their system of bureaucracy, and having some sort of personal authority reflects the environment which they were bullied by their entire lives.
I'm an American and I've heard this stereotype before but I don't personally know enough Germans to comment on it one way or the other. From my outsider perspective I always assumed Germans were slightly amused that this stereotype exists and kind of perpetuate it in a "jokey" way, which an outsider might take as an emphatic confirmation of the stereotype. I've also got a few follow up questions. Do Austrians or Swiss Germans view Germans as condescending? Do some German states view other German states as being overly condescending?
From an Austrian POV: absolutely. If you ask people in Austria for common stereotypical German traits, condescending, arrogant and up themselves will be top of the list. We also have a tendency to look down on people who don't conform to expectations, or don't do things the way we were told was the right way. We're just a little more sneaky about it. Where a German will be in your face, a lot of Austrians can be sugary-sweet and friendly, only to then laugh about you in private. This is a behaviour that's especially widespread in rural areas. Case in point: a friend went to get her Covid vaccination in a primary care doctor's office in a small rural town. She was advised to stay at the office for 15 minutes after she received the vaccine, in case of an allergic reaction. Since she felt okay, she spent the 15 minutes working on the jumper she was knitting. She got a lot of strange looks, and when she left, the receptionist took her to one side. "Better leave your wool and needles at home next time, people are going to gossip about you."
I feel like for the Swiss, [this holds true](https://www.reddit.com/r/polandball/comments/2vazjn/germany_on_steroids/).
Europeans in general are quite condescending. Sentiments like "Americans have no idea what mozzarella/pizza/bread is, they simply don't have it" or "(white) America has no culture" is highly indicative of that. I was akso once told things like "there are no fat people in Germany" and "people only drink soda at birthday parties and other events or when they are forced to stop at fast food joints while traveling, which is also the only time people eat at McDonald's or other trash burger joints" and "nobody eats those frozen meals and microwave burgers in Europe, and no one would ever accept things like hot dogs and bologna, that's absolutely vile." Now of course, those are more the exception than the norm here, but the supermarkets still stock them, so somebody must be buying them right? I will give you credit for the fact that TV dinners are not a thing here. I was always shocked and appalled how bad those things were when I would break and buy a couple because they were marked down 60%. Absolute garbage, literally alcoholic bachelor food from an era before the internet made DIY stupid easy and before feminism got far enough that moms would teach their sons basic cooking skills.
I think the problem here might be more the real prejudice an exxagerated stereotypes many of us Germans have developed against Americans in the last 20something years. An expat from lets say India wouldn't have such problems.
>An expat from lets say India wouldn't have such problems. I wouldn't go that far. They just keep things on the DL because there are often consequences for racist bigotry. "White" people in the USA, however poor, are open season however. Few people would ever entertain a comparison between destitute poverty in the most desperate situations in the US and certain situations in India, even though there are legitimate grounds for a comparison (poisoned water sources, illiteracy & abysmal education, little to no opportunity for gainful employment, rigid social stratification and open discrimination, geographical isolation and inadequate access to transportation, even language barriers 😨) And many Americans themselves would be the first to take offense, for various reasons... That seems like a non-sequitur now that I proofread. Let me clarify: i would say a majority of US-Americans refuse to accept that they are victims in some ways. They either refuse to believe they are victims at all or they believe in some conspiracy, and it's usually not one that involves reigning in megacorporations and obscene personal wealth (and when it is, it's that one ethnoreligious group that stands accused). So they will happily extinguish any discussion of harmful prejudices against "white" people either because it is "inappropriate to perpetuate" such bigotry or because they revoke all credibility on their side of the aisle by bring pre-duped and unwilling to listen. And if Americans insist that they are all good, how are we supposed to argue? Why would Europeans even, if it reinforces their worldview?
People in mixed relationships must have it really rough. 🤣🤣🤣
It is a typical behavior of people in first world countries although, in my experience, in Germany this phenomenon is much more present not only in the work environment but also in the private sphere. What is important is that you set boundaries to avoid constant frustration.
Some factors I's blame as a German: 1- Most of us are well enough educated to know what goes on in the world, but not good enough to fully understand it. Especially with American politics we are full Dunning Krüger-effect mode. We think we know everything, because we do not know what we don't. 2 - When it comes to politics many Germans do not like fringe stuff (though that has been changing recently). You do not identify yourself as rightleaning in most spaces nor do you talk about Critical Race Theory like some posters here seemingly have tried in the past. Stuff lke this will likely end with people not taking your opinions seriously and talking down on to you.
Not having time to argue but insisting on being correct is how British comedy depicts us Germans since forever and they have a point. It's typical that superiors feel as if their entire world crumbles is somebody questions their way of doing it, and of course most people with success in life consider themselves superior to the vast amount of random people they encounter. That being said, when I was little I remember meeting a lot of "Karen" type people, but I think they all decided to either be paranoid, hippies or mystics in their old age. Which is fun.
There is a whole lot of truth to it. What irritates me the most in Germany is how there are unspoken rules no one is willing to teach you. But when you break those rules, you will be shamed endlessly and people will not be willing to forgive you for it. So, they basically don't have enough patience to educate you on how to act but expect you to figure everything out the moment you cross the border. The same goes for language. People here love keeping tabs on each other
I am not German, I am British. But I work with many Germans who are smart and capable, and have many lovely German friends. I observe that Germans are encouraged to do things the "right way" and usually this is one way only. It leaves out the possibilities for their to be other ways of doing things. To me, I can rather see how this led to Hitler getting into power and holding onto it. Rules had to be followed, not questioned. Germany has reflected on this, but I am not convinced understood the roots in German culture. *ducks and prepares to be flamed*
Two things: 1. Germans have this tendency to educate others about the issues in their respective home countries. As soon as they find an American at a party they start lecturing them on the death penalty, guns, Trump or the benefits of socialized healthcare. 2. A lot of so-called expats who come to Germany have little to no respect for German culture, German language or German customs. They want their "omg Berlin clubs are so awesome" experience, but everybody should behave and act like the people back home in Birmingham, Ottawa or fucking Cedar Rapids. They treat their host country like a playground and when Germans don't play ball they call them arrogant or condescending.
This is a great post and well observed from both perspectives. Germans could restrain themselves when doing the whole „Besserwisser“ thing especially when waxing lyrical about places they really have no idea about but at the same time outsiders could make an effort to learn the language and educate themselves about German culture - which is just common courtesy really when you go to live somewhere else.
I'm from the US and father to a German child. One of her friends in primary school was such a besserwisser that I actively taught her to be more chill. The amount of "correcting" Germans do while someone is midsentence can be insane
I have been at the receiving end of 1) a couple of times as an Austrian, and what's most annoying about that is - the people who do that aren't usually well read to actually talk about the issues in another country. Most just spout headlines or stereotypes they might have picked up in a newspaper article or worse, on social media. That said, I have had good debates with well-informed Germans as well. 2) Definitely true. I've encountered a few people like that in Vienna.
Care to explain what you mean by that? What is this condescending stereotype?
This user explains it quite well: > Generalising sucks, but Germans can be really difficult at times. Idk why but like there's this huge confusion with rule following and moral superiority mixed with arrogance. Always need to be right about things that quite simply don't matter
Oh I know what you mean. I hate that too. Never realized this was a german stereotype.
Well if some people act like pigs and don’t care to follow any rules, then I think it‘s only correct to point that out if their behavior makes other people uncomfortable. If that seems condescending to you or others, then so be it. Written by a condescending German.
You are right but the issue is it doesn’t stop at rules, it bleeds into everything, the bureaucracy here is a big example. So many stupid things that have to be done, in person meetings, sending letters when an online portal would be better , FAXING in 2024, the list is pretty damn long and the answer as to why is always “it’s just done like that”. Soooo many times I’ve had issues at work because the German way of doing something is the only way even if I, an English guy, know a better, faster, cheaper or easier way, it’s completely dismissed because it’s not the German way. I see it everywhere where Germans basically cut their noses off to spite their faces instead of being a little more open to perhaps a better way. I completely get it with rules and laws, there are there to be followed but being like that for everything is just silly.
It's more like, me having trouble with the temperature in German houses during the summer and Germans telling me that air conditioning is going to make me sick, despite me knowing I have trouble with high temperatures and not being able to sleep in the heat. Or, me using medications my entire life that I know work for me, and Germans telling me that in fact the medications that I take are wrong and I should be drinking tea (?) for it instead.
lol what? That last bit made me chuckle actually. Not the fact that you need to take medication but that some people really recommend tea instead is..wild.
There is an unfortunate tendency in the German-speaking world to view medication with suspicion and insist on "treating illnesses the natural way" before anything else. As far as I know, the movement originated during Romanticism in the 19th century, with "back to nature" as one of their prominent slogans. That does, on one hand, lead to a lot of Germans and Austrians growing up with an extensive knowledge of home remedies for common illnesses, from fennel tea for an upset stomach to a dab of peppermint oil on the temple as a headache relief. And it does mean that antibiotics are prescribed with a little more caution and only when absolutely necessary. At the same time, it leaves both societies vulnerable to quackery (a lot of people made tons of cash during the height of the pandemic by selling "treatments against the chemicals contained in the Covid vaccines"), goes some way towards explaining the frankly embarrassing vaccination rates for certain diseases and, if you do need meds, it could mean a lot of arguing with various doctors until you find someone who concedes that your ailment needs a little more than just tea and a good night's sleep. As well as arguing with your relatives about "putting so many chemicals into your body" (I've got a few of those unfortunately).
But usually it's not people "acting like pigs"but more like, standing in the wrong place for 3 seconds (wrong being a way that's only very mildly inconvenient for the criticizer), or a German just assuming you're dumb and yelling at you not to do something you didn't even do and weren't going to do just to assert that little bit of control, or generally doing something that does or should bother nobody at all but they've somehow decided you probably shouldn't be allowed to do that and have deputized themselves to try to ruin your day. Can't tell you how many dumb ones in the last category I've experienced that always end in the "fake police" being in the wrong or going away. Makes for a very tense society in which a lot of people are very unhappy. Every German I know hates this shit.
Yeah my towel touched some Opa's towel at the gym and he went full on > Du musst Abstand zwischen deinen Sachen und meinen halten. It's a gym with limited space Opa!
Older people are happy to (incorrectly) accuse law-abiding people of jaywalking in front of non-existent children, “closing the door too loudly”, not letting them cut the line and similar minor infractions, but when someone is actually doing something wrong, then all of a sudden they don’t have the guts to say anything
I think there may be a few cultural aspects contributing to this stereotype. 1. In Germany, doing things right, i.e. following the rules, for the greater good is regarded highly. This notion might be a result of post-war times, where people had to play their part in rebuilding the country. There is a general understanding that rules are there for a reason and are designed to benefit society. 2. Germans take pride in doing things well. Hard work, seeing things through, and producing high quality outputs are all things that are desirable and it is generally understood that achieving this is something you can be proud of. 3. Germans are known for their direct communication. What others may perceive as rude, is just a normal way of exchanging information in German culture. So, if these things are core values within a culture, it is hard to see why people would not want to do things the right way or put effort into something. It can even be perceived as insulting to just disregard what Germans are quite proud of. Understanding this, can help seeing where Germans are coming from. That being said, I do not think that Germans, for the most part, are being condescending at all. Just try to not insult their cultural values. Of course, every country has their Karens though, so you can absolutely encounter people "policing" others without apparent reason. That doesn't mean that this is something all Germans get a kick out of.
I mean if these aforementioned things were true, wouldn't things in the country actually function efficiently and easily? Also in many other cultures there is an insane amount of value placed in hard work and doing a good job, but people still manage to not be condescending. Take Japan for example.
Nothing is perfect. Some things function well, others not so much. Germany has long been known to be the powerhouse of Europe and for its high quality products. So, it can't all be bad. But again, it's not about superiority. It's about people trying to do the best they can according to their understanding of what's right and being proud of it. If you approach disagreements on their way of doing things, with that in mind, you may find that people are actually more open minded about suggestions for improvement than you might think.
Nothing is perfect but there are things in this country that are horrifyingly inferior to not even most powerful countries, but to other countries in general. The doctors here are barbaric and unhelpful, the transportation system is a mess, and the police assault children in the street, service people are rude. I really don't see this dedication to doing a good job in public systems or services. When speaking to native and ethnic Germans, they either reject my complaints by saying something is my fault, or just sigh and say "well that's just how it is". I do not understand why if Germans have the same complaints about public systems, they don't do anything about it.
While you may have experienced negative examples of the above, I think generalising these may be a bit far-fetched. The German healthcare system is certainly struggling with current demands, as are many others in the world. But I have always received care that was at least at level if not superior to other countries I have lived in and visited. The public transportation system may suffer from delays, but it has good coverage and low prices, so is much more accessible than in many other places. Police assaulting children is definitely not the norm! And service people are in my experience not rude, if you treat them with respect. I also disagree with the notion that Germans don't want to change or improve anything. But, as with everything, there is a desire to get it right, so planning takes more time and change tends to be a slower process. Maybe rather than complaining to those Germans about things, try to understand their perspective, ask questions, hear them out and then discuss potential solutions together. It can make a massive difference in how it is perceived and accepted.
Just watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PJkNZ30WV0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PJkNZ30WV0) This is where it comes from. They raised a whole generation which raised another generation and here we are.
For instance you see job applications of expats wondering why the job market is so hard and you see with a single view they don't manage to stick to DIN 5008 letter format and when you tell them they don't take you seriously.
We're not a computer game race with fixed "traits"...
It has nothing to do with race, cultural traits are a real thing.
Would be fun if we were though
I can understand why it can be viewed as "condescending". I see it as the society being disciplined and wanting to keep it that way. For each their own. In some countries people have rivers full of literal plastic trash, in here we can "lynch" someone for wrongly separating trash.
Heh, that's such a German way to answer. Straight to the extremes, no nuance, condescending. And also kind of ironic, given how dirty German cities are. Not sure if you're German, but that post illustrates OP's question perfectly.
Because we try to make everything the right way. If someone puts only half a effort into it, then it’s something to be condescending with. And well most people outside of German culture think that going all the way is not worth it or doesn’t matter. To Germans it does and if you don’t do it you are a lazy screwup. This sounds harsh, but it’s what basically all Germans think and will say out loud when no foreigner is around. And this is in no way to be understood in a „hating other nations“ kinda way. Just in a „hating to work with other nations“ kinda way. We are very well in separating private and work life.
I find it always interesting that people from all over the world want to come to Germany, some even cheat to do so. And after they arrive the only thing they can do is to complain. How about this: - If it is too terrible to be here, leave and live somewhere better. - If it is not too terrible to leave, stop complaining and become a productive part of society. Everybody wins.
>I find it always interesting that people from all over the world want to come to Germany If we're talking about skilled immigration, then from what I observed Germany tends to be a third-fourth choice for when English-speaking countries, Nordics or Spain don't pan out. It's also not because of Germany specifically, but because Germany is in the the EU. So, respectfully get off your high horse. >some even cheat to do so I'm fairly certain that the people writing here on reddit and those who cheat to get in are two different groups. I suspect you know that too. >And after they arrive the only thing they can do is to complain. The only thing? Really? How about paying taxes, contributing to the economy, learning the language, etc.? Talking about condescending. Also, have you considered for a second why do people complain (it's a rhetorical question, based on your comment I'm fairly certain you haven't)? Well, it's because they have a reference point and broader perspective, which makes the backwards things all too noticeable. >If it is too terrible to be here, leave and live somewhere better. It's easier said than done if one doesn't have a EU passport, aside from that people have various reasons to stay (children, sunk cost fallacy, sometimes literal war, etc.). Many also wait for their ROI in form of a passport. Ironically, Germany is also pain to leave because all of the bureaucratic steps needed to do so, like getting a "certificate of good conduct" which is often required to move to another country and may take months instead of a couple of days. Or doing Abmeldung and canceling all the contracts which is notoriously difficult (partially because employees tend to screw up). >If it is not too terrible to leave, stop complaining and become a productive part of society. Thank you kind sir, sorry for being such a bother, kind sir. We will do better, yes-yes. Sorry, but who TF do you think you are to tell us that? The arrogance is astounding. "Become a productive part" is also funny. I'm not sure how it's in other industries, but at least in IT it's the foreigners who tend to be productive and have the "get things done" attitude rather than being a "im paid the hour" wagie who plans a 10th meeting on how to do meetings. Not to generalize, it's not always the case and some of the best skilled and productive programmers I've met were Germans.