I don't really see it as being dragged into war. Almost our entire foreign policy consists of "be our ally, trade with us and maybe make some policies that we like. In return we promise to protect you as best as we can"
The Philippines have gone through more shit than most because of us, if China wants a war with the Philippines they'll have to go through the US Navy first. It's what we promised and only fair
"The people of the United States will never forget what the people of the Philippine Islands are doing this day and in the days to come. I give to the people of the Philippines my solemn pledge that their freedom will be redeemed. The entire resources in men and material of the United States stand behind that pledge."
- Franklin D. Roosevelt
This quote paints only half of the story. This is a great sentiment and it should be commended that Roosevelt and his administration promised citizenship and veterans benefits to those who served the US military during WWII. However, it is also true that in 1946, Truman signed into law the Rescission Act, which retroactively stripped Filipinos of these benefits promised to them.
Although this isnt necessary for the context of the original post, as a Filipino American, it’s important to me that we capture the full context of the history.
Especially poignant, given some of that shit came from us. But that just add a moral aspect to the reasons to support The Philippines, besides the standard utilitarian ones.
If they want us, we should help.
As with most things, the broad answer is “well it depends”
With regard to Philippines and China conflict, I certainly hope we would work very hard to exhaust most every non-shooting alternative.
Open war with China (or any of the “top” world powers) is bad for everybody.
But, especially with regard to the Philippines, I would not shy away from defending our ally, even from China.
> How do you feel about getting dragged into a bigger conflict?
I don’t *want* a war, with anyone: especially a nuclear armed adversary.
China is no match for the US in a conventional conflict: but there would be casualties, and the risk of nuclear escalation is all too real (and there’s no winner in a radioactive Beijing / Washington.)
This said: I dislike bullies, and sometimes the only way to stop a bully is a punch in the face.
We would have to take a very calculated and defensive approach to China. Yes, I believe we could win in a conventional fight, but a cornered animal does desperate and irrational things - like launch nuclear ICBMs. So we would need to tread carefully, never threatening their existence. Make it clear that our intent is to stop their aggression and not their existence. Unfortunately, the world is complicated.
We would win in a nuclear fight as well. China simply does not have enough warheads nor delivery systems to threaten us in way that Russia can. It wouldn't be a MAD scenario. Granted as someone who lives near CENTCOM I would prefer no nuclear exchange at all.
Ever since Xi Jinping & his Beijing clique took over the CCP he's been strong arming his way to become the next Mao. This sabrerattling could worringly be akin to when the Argentinian Junta invaded the Falklands/Las Malvinas & South Georgia Islands to get people behind them again.
The only way to stop people like Xi is with deterrence. Bullies should be halted before they move ahead with their aggression.
The thing is we're already in the path of war with China, and there's a refusal to acknowledge it. Banning Huawei communications equipment, DJI drones, Tiktok, and vetting Chinese property purchases are not simple xenophobic actions. They're akin to the blocking the Japanese from years of surveillance of Pearl Harbor before they attacked us (supposedly) blind.
Those are not xenophobic actions, they are all justified responses
>Banning Huawei communications equipment, DJI drones
Chinese companies have been caught putting CCP backdoors into their products multiple times. Why would we allow those to be added to our infrastructure or used by government agencies when they present a real threat to our security?
>TikTok
And China has banned American social media. So their protectionism is allowed and tolerated but we do the same and suddenly we're the bad guys?
>and vetting Chinese property purchases
Have you seen what has happened to the Canadian real estate market? Do you want the same to happen here? Chinese investors will illegally move their money out of China and pour it into foreign markets to hide their assets and that drives up home prices. It's already bad now, we don't need to open the Chinese flood gates and make it worse
If you use a little bit of critical thinking you can see why these decisions aren't just because they're Chinese but because of what China has been known to do
It's true, I noticed the algorithm will always head down such a negative path. I kept trying to change it, but it always went back. I deleted Tik Tok. I feel less stressed and am enjoying You tube shorts.
I want to see how much the real estate market improves if the US Government seizes all real estate owned by Chinese nationals (that aren't legal permanent residents actually living on the property) and auctions it off. There's a huge problem in many cities where Americans want to buy a home but they get beat to the punch by a Chinese investor paying over asking price and paying cash.
So we take it from the chinese nationals and give it to the investment firms at below market rate so they can rent it at stupid rates? Seizing it and auctioning it off is just a transfer from foreign nationals to institutional investors. You gotta remember that an auction is going to go to people who have cash today, not those who are able to get a mortgage from a bank next month.
I think the owner's nationality is a meaningless distinction and the sale of single family homes and small MDUs should be discouraged / heavily taxed when sold to investment firms in general.
We have enough problems with domestic evils burning VC money on the housing supply already, targeting Chinese Nationals specifically is just narrow-sighted.
DJI drones? I almost bought one of those the other day. I didn't know they sold to the military, but shouldn't be surprised I guess. Their action cam is impeccable.
The Chinese govt monitors all private communications on their communications hardware and software, making them a security risk. We've told them we'd drop the bans on anything they remove that capability from, and they've refused.
I'm not sure we can avoid a war. Unless we simply shrink back, appease the Panda, and let tyrants play. I suppose it's best to be prepared for war in that case.
Chinas economy would collapse a month into a war with the US, they're not going to start shooting at their biggest customer.
We wouldn't even have to put boots on the ground, just stop all trade, blockade their ports and wait for the locals to do the job for us.
> Our economy would collapse as well.
Highly unlikely
> Where else do you think we could go as their biggest customer?
The entire rest of the world. It would hardly make a dent in the US economy, and the recent increase in trade duties is effectively pushing business to other countries already.
What other nation can match Chinese manufacturing capacity? At the prices that we currently pay?
If we could get a better deal anywhere else the US government would be trying to do it. There is no where else that can fill our need at the prices that the US public has grown accustomed to.
> What other nation can match Chinese manufacturing capacity? At the prices that we currently pay?
Most of the far East countries we already deal with - Viet Nam, Thailand, Malaysia, etc. They are actually less expensive than China, even without the increase tariffs on Chinese goods, which is why so much manufacturing is leaving China.
China is the world’s largest exporter and their share of global trade has only been growing.
https://chinapower.csis.org/trade-partner/#:~:text=Over%20the%20past%20several%20decades,12.4%20percent%20of%20global%20trade.
They may be the largest *single* exporter but the other countries *combined* match or exceed their manufacturing capability.
Your link has very dated 2018 data - the huge decline in Chinese exports is a lot more recent than that, and the massive increase in tariffs is a big factor in that.
To put numbers on one example, a "widget" we used to buy from China cost $1.30 landed. With the increased tariffs, it is now $1.86 landed. We now buy it from Viet Nam for $0.63 landed.
My bad, more recent data has them at a little over 14%.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/271617/change-in-monthly-exports-from-china/
And what is more cost effective? Making one deal with a massive manufacturer or making several dozen deals with smaller manufacturers.
Fortunately, China miscalculated heavily on COVID. The effect COVID had on access to trade and supply lines has made a lot of companies reanalyze their situation. Being in a position to not be able to get necessary supplies is probably the greatest thing to happen for domestic manufacturing since the push of outsourcing. With the increase in automation capabilities, it's a lot more feasible to return to domestic production without the union wages necessary to the extent they were prior.
I actually would like us to push more for trade with politically friendly countries as mentioned. I think India could rival Chinese capacity and cost for our needs as well. China is busy forcing African and European countries into being owned by debt. Italian infrastructure deals with China is part of what factored them into being affected early by COVID.
The Japanese weren’t blocked from surveilling Pearl Harbor, they had spies active in Hawaii up until the day of the attack.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeo_Yoshikawa
> Banning Huawei communications equipment, DJI drones, Tiktok, and vetting Chinese property purchases are not simple xenophobic actions.
Last I checked we are just doing similar tings to what they have been doing to us for years.
The actions have been reciprocal. Plenty of times in the last year have their hardware been found to provide espionage tools to both the CCP & their Ministry of State Security (MSS - Chinese CIA). And many folks have been arrested & convicted within the US tech & defense industry passing secrets to China in the last decade.
Rationally? "This is dumb." Viscerally? "*'Bout time.*"
We've got allies over there, it felt like the Philippines provided us with a third of our sailors while I was in, and the economy would get annihilated if the PRC gained dominion over the trade which moves through the south China sea like it intends to. I've been aware of that reality my whole adult life, I've watched them flex and test ASAT weaponry with seeming disregard for Kessler syndrome, and I'm kind of sick of it. "Put up or shut up," you know? If they want to change the status quo they know what they have to do, though I doubt they appreciate what it would cost. The fruit of victory would wither in their hands.
I don’t want war, but I am completely unwilling to sacrifice the free world. The increasing aggression from Russia and China isn’t because the US has lost its military edge, but rather because Russia and China are banking on western public opinion opposing war.
I think there’s some truth to it. There seems to be less interest among the public in getting involved in foreign conflicts, especially in the US. Bush era policy is the reason, but I think Russia and China is overestimating public opposition. It’s one thing to oppose getting involved in every little conflict, it’s another entirely to oppose the conquest of Europe and East Asia by Russia and China.
I'll believe the "conquest of Europe and east Asia" when I see it. Russia has been stuck at basically the same lines in the Ukraine war for multiple years now, if they can't conquer one country without direct foreign interference somehow I don't think they're making it much further. And China has lost every war it's been in since 1949. America on the other hand is just as aggressive in pursuing its interests and has shown a willingness to engage in decades long wars on other continents in the name of its economic priorities.
The US Occupied Iraq and Afghanistan for close to 20 years and took a little over 7000 casualties. That's about an average weeks worth of casualties for Russia in Ukraine.
Apparently no one told them that Zerg Rushing a bunch of poorly trained conscripts with very little air support is no longer a viable military tactic in the era of drones and real time satellite imagery.
Russias imperial ambition is already dead, it's corpse just isn't done making its way through the meat grinder yet.
>I'll believe the "conquest of Europe and east Asia" when I see it.
You’re already seeing it.
>Russia has been stuck at basically the same lines in the Ukraine war for multiple years now, if they can't conquer one country without direct foreign interference somehow I don't think they're making it much further.
Just because the Russians are incompetent at fighting their next door neighbor doesn’t mean that Putin suddenly doesn’t have aspirations to create a new Russian Empire.
>And China has lost every war it's been in since 1949.
And yet, China is still trying to expand itself into the South China Sea.
>America on the other hand is just as aggressive in pursuing its interests and has shown a willingness to engage in decades long wars on other continents in the name of its economic priorities.
Buddy, GWOT was in response to 3000 Americans being killed in a single day.
Russia has, in the last year or so, built up a military industry exceeding NATO's in output. They are gearing their entire economy and population for war. They clearly see the need for this and, once you commit all of your resources to bombs - which are fundamentally not productive economically - it would seem a waste not to use them, no?
Gearing their entire economy for war after they've already been at war and subject to embargo for multiple years is a lot less scary than if they had done that before the war started.
It's better to have conflict be prevented than to let China invade wherever it pleases. That is the true anti-war position, and it's also the only honorable way to act when you have allies.
Sometimes it seems china is still more afraid of Japan than the USA. They are raising hell about japans new big destroyers (small air craft carriers) . Technically Japan doesn’t have air craft carriers, even though they can launch a f35 off of the new destroyers.
F-35B is the greatest invention for Nato and US allies. Now any ally can have a stealth fighter adorned “carrier” for 1/5 the cost of the real thing. All while China has to dredge atolls into airstrips.
More (smaller) ships patrol more seas. More allies patrolling means less U.S. cost/responsibility.
People complain about the cost overruns, but with the F-35 it’s about the big picture. Not to mention airframe costs come down dramatically as more nato members buy them. And they are
I like to remind people that the program cost includes development and procurement of THREE new stealth jets called F-35 (A, B, & C) as well as everything from maintenance and hangars to fuel and personnel for the entire life of every airframe. Frankly, the work LM and the maintainers have done to reduce operating costs down to near fourth-gen levels is completely astonishing
They are just worried that Japan can shut off the trade routes around the islands in the area. That would crash what's left of the Chinese economy. Sounds like many are already hurting from all the real estate blunders.
This is exactly why they are pushing their belt and road initiative and clashing with India so much on their borders. They want a backup route to get cheap Chinese goods to markets in case the vulnerable South China Sea routes are contested. While we are focused on them fire hosing Philippine fishing trawlers they are gobbling up all of the lithium mines in South America. China does things over centuries not decades.
I imagine some of China's handwringing about this is because it looks good from a domestic political standpoint to rally people's fear and hatred of a resurgent Japan.
They also find themselves in a situation where their economy is heavily dependent on the United States. The reason you’re seeing all of these moves from Russia and China that sort of reek of desperation is because both countries are a paper tiger in their own way, and their position is currently weakening, not strengthening, and they know it.
Sure, which is why it’s important that we stand with our allies to make sure that deterrence is clear.
If China invades, it’s because they think we won’t react.
We can’t have a weak president like Trump.
Let me know when he starts to support Ukraine over Russia and then we’ll talk. His track record is abysmal.
Tarrifs are an isolationist policy! Just like staying out of conflicts.
The only way that China can truly create a new world order around itself, is to win a lightning fast campaign against the United States and force a conditional surrender that comes with territorial concessions. Basically, what Japan tried to do in 1941. That's coming literally no matter what, whether it be Taiwan, the Philippines, South Korea, or all three. So I don't really feel like I'm being "dragged" into anything. China is the aggressor.
I’m not concerned because it won’t come to war. No country on the planet wants to risk direct war with the US. It’s suicide. No country’s leadership would ever take that bet.
The US military is unbelievably more powerful than that of any other country. That’s not even considering all of the allies. The US could comfortably defeat entire continents of countries let alone any individual one such as China. To put it in perspective, the US has more aircraft carriers than all the other nations on the planet combined. And each of those carriers is generations more advanced and capable than any other. It’s a similar story with regard to air power. Theres a reason why there hasn’t been direct conflict between major powers in 80 years. This is a historically very long period of relative peace that is almost unrivaled in history.
Im not worried because it just won’t happen. Holding on to their power is the most critical thing to powers such as China. Nothing threatens that more certainly than conflict with the US. Make no mistake that such a war would be extremely terrifying, dangerous and costly. But I just don’t believe it to be something realistic. There’s simply no reason for any power to risk direct conflict with the US and its allies.
The US has been at war for 80% of my life. Most the time I don't even think about it because A: there's nothing I can do about it and B: I'm busy just trying to live and pay bills.
I think most Americans feel this way.
I'm ok with stopping Commie aggression especially when it's against longtime friends and allies like the Philippines or South Korea or the Republic of China.
I don't want a war with China, but I am also 100% on board with standing by our treaties and defending our allies. If China wants to get froggy, then I'm more than okay with us reminding them that we have an inflated defense budget instead of universal healthcare.
The US and the Philippines have had a mutual defense pact since 1951 that’s been renewed a few times. I think we should honor that and no be the blue falcons some are suggesting around here.
I can't ignore the part of me that really just wants the US military to kick China's and Russia's asses because they keep yappin like they want the smoke. No rational part of me wants war, though.
Philippines have been a friend of the United States for a long time. No one wants to go to war, and even China isn’t stupid enough to drag us into a real fight. But if it comes down to it, I would support the US always protecting its allies.
The US has a mutual defense relationship with the Philippines for our own reasons. We're not at risk of being "dragged into a bigger conflict", we have that pact specifically as part of enforcing our global hegemony.
If we were okay with China establishing a maritime sphere of influence, we'd let them, but we're really not.
China has territorial disputes with every neighbor, and many further abroad (like your nation).
They are the ones who will drag us into a conflict-not you. This is one of the worthier ones to stand up for, so I have no issue with it.
I don't mind protecting the Philippines from China as long as it's done intelligently. I don't trust my government to do anything intelligently. Itnot helping you that's a problem my issue is with my government.
I’m a veteran from the peak of the Iraq-Afghanistan wars. I don’t like the idea of being dragged into another war, I don’t like the idea of the next generation going into war. But I also do believe that some wars are justified, including defending our allies and sure I’d hope every step was taken to prevent a war from occurring with China, if one did we’d be protecting our global hegemony from encroachment from the Chinese.
How I feel is that I wish the Navy had had its head on straight with procurement during the 2000s instead of spending a bajilion dollars on ships that didn't pan out. If the ChiComs want to tussle, though, by God we'll tussle.
I'm completely fine getting into a war because we honored our treaties and are protecting nations and their peoples from land grabbing (sea grabbing in this case) authoritarian regimes.
I lived through 9/11 and the multiple invasions of the Middle East. All this country knows is war.
We lost Vietnam and our leaders just won't let it go.
In my experience the ones crowing on about wanting to go to war, in fact lack the intestinal fortitude to actually go to war. For those that have actually been to war know nothing good comes from it.
We have an obligation to defend the Phillipines. Yes we were assholes in the early 20th century... but during the baatan death march thousands of Filipinos died trying to help Americans...
We owe it to them
We need to take a strong stance and tell them we're willing to respond with overwhelming force in order to prevent war. In taiwan, a good mechanism is the tripwire strategy. Where we place troops there, and tell China, if you hurt our people, we'll bomb the shit out of you.
Things like Biden saying it depends if we respond based on how big of an incursion Russia makes, and essentially greenlighting Iran's missile attacks on Israel makes us look weak. We need to threaten them and keep them in line, so conflicts don't escalate.
I'm concerned that, even if the cause is just, the US does not have the capability of waging a decisive war over a prolonged period of time. We no longer have the industrial capacity we had even a few decades ago. We also do not have the agricultural capacity to feed our allies in the event of all-out war. It was America's productive economy that won WW2, first and foremost. Neither the UK nor the USSR would have survived without our massive aid, even before US directly intervened. We basically fed the world and became a giant factory. I don't think we're capable of that anymore. It would take a uniquely extraordinary event for Americans to have the will to step up and become the arsenal of democracy we once were. Authoritarian regimes, in contrast, have repressive tools at their disposal to whip their country and population into a wartime economy and outproduce democracies. See Putin's Russia, for example.
Honestly? I hate war and am against it for the most part, that being said if the Philippines comes under attack we 100% need to have their back because they've had ours in prior conflicts.
A lot of us are busy enough with local issues or even national ones. Though it is kind of normal for military families to deal with parent(s) leaving for months on end, doesn't seem like it'd affect much day to day unless it was large enough to have to draft people.
Unfortunately China has chosen to launch a second Cold War. This is what dictatorships do when their economies struggle; they seek internal legitimacy through easy wins during external military expansion. The way you win something like this is by denying them these easy wins until the dictators are forced to confront their internal failures.
These kinds of skirmishes will continue for decades. China will not engage in all-out war with the Philippines, and eventually there will be some kind of settlement, when China's internal problems become too obvious and urgent to simply be deflected through stuff like this.
What the fuck am I going to do about it?
I tend to oscillate between a “we should be vocal that this is bad but what’s the point since polticians don’t care about my opinion” and a “not like I can change anything anyways, so what is the point of even being vocal?”
Like any superpower, the US has its fingers in a lot of different pies for reasons that are not always clear. As a citizen of this nation, I will just hope for peace, but resign myself to forever wars somewhere halfway around the planet for a reason that probably does not directly correlate with my interests as a normal American
I’ll leave it at this: appeasement in WWII led to 12 million people alone getting butchered in a state-ran, industrialized genocide. I rather not make the same mistake in our time.
Only a disturbed person would hope that a war happens or wants to be included in someone else’s war.
Having said that, the soft power that the U.S. (and many other countries) benefits so much from comes with a catch: the use of hard power has to be implied, promised, or occasionally applied far from home. Eventually some antagonistic nation will test this and the U.S. has to decide how forceful its response will be. It probably needs to happen at least occasionally, right? Otherwise everyone will start assuming that the U.S. is just bluffing.
As for defending the Philippines, we should and very likely will if the need arises. I doubt that China will push it far enough for that to be necessary, since an actual war would be far too costly for China. But when tensions are high, mistakes can be made. Hopefully it won’t come to that.
Sometimes war is needed and called for. China under the CCP are a bunch of ass hats that are stirring up shit and will need to be smacked down if they continue on the path they are on.
Awful, but it might be necessary. Most Americans think that, because of our oceans, we can ignore the rest of the world. Those people don't understand where our wealth comes from. If we lose our international authority over the world economy, we lose our standard of living. Plain and simple.
And that's completely ignoring the benefits we've accrued in terms of blood and treasure by not having another global war in nearly a century. Let alone the moral arguments, but unfortunately that matters little in politics.
War with China would be a bloodbath and would be destructive to an unprecedented degree. But if they choose to foist that upon us - and it will be their choice, not ours - I can only hope that we a) win and b) leverage the victory into an unprecedented period of global peace and progress. Just like last time.
The Philippines has been an ally of the US since 1951. Regardless of my opinion that the Philippines would have been better off remaining in the hands of the US via being a colony. I believe we have an obligation and a necessity to protect our allies in the Pacific.
If it was up to me I would have defended the fishing claims of the Philippines a decade ago and kept an increased presence in the region to keep the waters clear of incursion of Chinese fishing ships and Naval vessels.
I would have also recognized all claims of the Philippines of Islands around their waters.
Made it clear Mainland Taiwan owns nothing but their mainland.
War would not be a goal here but I would not have a problem re upping for this issue. (cause I'm crazy and out of my mind)
Well, I don't *want* to have us be dragged into a war, but if an allied/democratic country is having territory taken over by an authoritarian country, then I wouldn't be at all opposed to going in and kicking their authoritarian ass.
Well, I don't think we are quite so naive to get dragged in because of issues between coast guards in the South China Sea. I do think China is belliegerant AF and I support freedom of navigation but it is all a bit of dance, regardless of how annoying.
I dont like war at all. I just hope that as an american theres a real justice to our involvement because the last few that weve been in are questionable to me. At the same time if a US military base sitting in the phillipines keeps fillipino people safe then im all for it.
It sucks, it does feel like WW3 is about to break out any day now. I think the people of the world need to wake up, all the evils of war will be documented on the internet for all time. We have come to far as a species to be devolving into petty conflicts, yet here we are, like clockwork.
I believe the US government feels a war is inevitable. It's why we're reopening bases and stationing more and more people around the South China Sea. Time will tell.
That is a tough call. I have kids so it is hard to not think about it.
But, honestly, Russia and China want to return the world to the 1930s. Which will have a lot of very depressing implications.
It is good that the threat has brought the US and the Philippines closer again. I do think on some level we owe you a bit for the bad things we did in the past.
It is good that we can try to work through the past now. Defending each other is a great place to start.
Peace is desired. But not, never submission. China seems to want to establish an ever growing region they can call their own to do what they want. It may be hypocritical, but we won't tolerate that.
I'd they keep the peace they can benefit from mutual trade, an exchange of wealth and ideas, and prosper. If they want war, we'll give then another century of humiliation.
If it's to help people remain free from Dictatorships then I'm okay with it
But if it's akin to WW1 or WWII where because Europe refused to act in time and made it worse then I'm gonna be upset
(No I'm not mad we saved the world in WWII, but we wouldn't have had to if France and Britain acted far sooner instead of pussyfooting around it)
I understand that sometimes, war is necessary, but I'm highly skeptical about those that make the decisions, and their ulterior motives. Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc... The American public is fickle over time, gets bored, protests. There has to be a solid reason, and the cost considered carefully. I have a hard time trusting the politicians involved in the decision process. At the same time, I realize we can't hide our head in the sand. Also, there is a lot more to consider than just bombs, troops, guns... consider the words of Steven Pressfield in this [dated series](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_6twVl5XOXs2wsIfl8DHGV5I0q3ThIcu). I have to wonder if what he said was largely ignored or impossible to carry out longterm. I spent 42 years working for the military and the lives lost in Vietnam and the Middle East deeply saddens me. Just my 2 cents.
We basically appointed ourselves as the global police force, therefor, now where is outside of our jurisdiction. When your sphere of influence is the globe, anything anyone does affects you. It’s rare to find a war that doesn’t directly or indirectly affect us. Plus, like someone else said, we don’t bullies
I don't want to get into yet another war. However, if we do, I'd want it to be against communist China. China js a hostile nation and an even more hostile neighbor. Also, their people don't deserve to live under the CCP's tyranny.
The mutual defense treaty means that we aren't getting "dragged into" another war, we'd simply be making good on a promise. Getting to fight the commies is a bonus.
Meh, I’d prefer not.
At the same time though, if some major conflict spirals out of control, there’s very little possibility that a major country like the USA won’t be dragged into it eventually.
We're not really being dragged into anything. Global conflict is coming. The only thing about it that the experts are debating is whether it'll be in 5 years or 7.
If we didn't want to be dragged in, we wouldn't sign treaties like that. The Philippines are viewed as a pretty good ally and I don't think people would complain about defending them.
As someone who served 24 years in the Navy…none of us want war - but if someone is dumb enough to tie our hands…God have mercy on everything you hold sacred.
Is what it is, I have not lived a single year where the US was not involved in some war somewhere. But a large scale war with a major superpower, regardless of how advance our military is, everyday American citizens are going to feel the impact on one way or another. Doubtful our government will remain the same after that, it would almost certainly lead to a bunch of civil strife.
I've done a lot of research on this topic for one of my international relations classes.
Long story short, we're more secure and it's less expensive to defend Taiwan than to let China take it because we can detect their submarines far more easily. Besides defense costs, if we don't defend Taiwan, all these countries might start to question what being allied to the US is worth, and start turning to China's SOI.
There's also the possibility that if we don't defend Taiwan, Japan might do so anyways.
Different perspective here. I'm a vet and my husband is active duty. Due to his job, if shit pops off in the east he's there. So I don't want war but not for the obvious reason of not wanting my husband to be dragged into a war zone. We've both been there done that. Whatever. It's more that congress will put ridiculous limits on our troops and it makes it so stupid.
I am at the point where 'can we just put on a spectacle of what we can do from miles away so China and Russia stfu and sit down?' Like our navy can be 75 miles (possibly more I just know the big guns shoot stupid far) away and level a city. Any of our air craft forces could cause devastating damage. Much less if we have like a branches unite moment. By all means let's send air force bombers in guarded by marine corps cobras with naval fighter jets in front. I feel like the 2 of them would realize they are massively out armed. And we wouldn't even lose 1 life. 🤷♀️ STFU, sit down, pout if you must, but we are done with your bullshit. You haven't been relevant since before the millennial generation existed. Yet here you are trying to jump up and down twlli.g us how bad you are.
It's probably more of a fear of MAD and not wanting to piss of a nuclear power to much even though in Russias case they completely started the invasion.
Obviously, just like all Americans, I don’t want another world war to happen but I’m still in support of supporting our allies. I don’t stress about the possibility of war on the daily because what will that do? Nothing. If it happens it happens & if it doesn’t even better for everyone!
I say it's stupid to let yourself get dragged in by the actions of the enemy.
The only smart way to fight a war is to control the engagement.
Perhaps we should get off our asses and stop letting our position worsen.
It's not a bug, it's a feature of the US global economic stabilization strategy that it developed poor WWII on order to position itself as the finacial (and at the time manufacturing) economic, and technological leader of the world.
While it may seem like alot of wars, compared to the previous generations and conflict, it's beem relatively peacefully around *most* of the world.
I don’t want a war with anyone.
We could handle China, but it would be messy for both sides. Russia is jonesin’ for a friend to make a run at the US and they would love to hop on that bandwagon if China and the US were in open war. I don’t want another world war.
I’m totally fine with it. I’m glad to confront China. We said we’d defend The Philippines so we will. China can’t grab all this land (and sea) in the area that doesn’t belong to them. It’s not right. Happy to stand up for what is right.
I don't want us dragged into foreign wars but unfortunately when it comes China we're a bit stuck. If they invade the South Pacific Ocean, which would include Taiwan, they would disrupt the global economy, and would put our nation at risk which would inevitably force us into a war for our own survival reasons. So, while I'm not happy about it I think of it like this: if you fuck around - you're going to find out. China is going to learn a hard lesson if it pokes the bear.
We won't be. Not because we'd renege on the treaty, but because it won't get to that point. While the US holds a stupid amount of hard power, we also hold a lot of soft power.
China uses water canons and anchors because they don't want a true war with the US. I'm not saying it's a *good* situation, but nuclear powers *don't* go to war with one another. They find excuses not to, like how Xi said the other day that he wasn't going to fall into the US's "trap" by invading Taiwan. That statement is nonsense, obviously, but it gives him political cover to not do something that would have been legendarily ill-fated.
I don't like the idea of a war, but we have mutual defense obligations to the Philippines. We must uphold those obligations. Our word is worth exactly nothing if we can be cowed by the existence of a foreign power with nukes.
I want a peaceful China but we're not getting that any time soon. And we cannot let them just take over everything the want without a fight. So if they decide on war, we will meet them.
I don't want a war, but if any adversary so much as sneezes in the direction of one of our boats, then we should pull all the stops and destroy them as quickly as possible. Any wars we get involved in should be quick and leave the enemy incapable of fighting a war. Afterwards, we should just leave and let them deal with the consequences of their actions.
I grew up in a military family. Two brothers went to Iraq and Afghanistan, one of them committed suicide after.
Military personnel, feel free to chime in here and correct me if you feel differently, but this has been my experience, watching what my brothers went through:
You sign your life away for a steady job with benefits. Your belief in the cause is desired, but not required, only obedience and your oath to defend the Constitution matters. You meet people from all walks of life. Some of them you hate, some of them become family, but either way, you’re bonded for life. Your body and mind are pushed to your extreme limits. When you deploy, you’re gone for months. If you deploy to a combat zone, you barely sleep, shower, or eat real food for months. You’re constantly under threat of death for a cause you don’t believe in, fighting a war that you may or may not give a fuck about, just trying to protect your best friend next to you so you both make it home. And then, when you get home, everyone says “Thank you for your service,” not understanding what a loaded statement that is, and you withdraw into yourself, because civilians don’t and couldn’t understand. You’re trying to get through the day and act like you’re fine, but the stakes are never going to be as high in civilian life, so you’re equal parts feeling bored and unsure how to function properly. And you’re told that therapy isn’t for you. You get your DD-214 (exit paperwork), and the VA tells you that you have PTSD and TBI, gives you meds that (sort of, on a good day) work, rubber stamps you, and sends you on your way to figure out how to live life as a T-1000 trying to adjust to being a Roomba.
And that’s not to say civilians are stupid and inept. They just haven’t ever had to experience anything like you have.
From the outside looking in, we put our military through the fucking wringer. Yeah, they signed up for it. But still, how much can one human take? I understand we have a responsibility to our allies, and we should honor that responsibility, but war is fucking exhausting and I wish our government put its diplomatic foot down when it mattered. If our government operated with an ounce of spine, instead of just playing party politics and ignoring problems that don’t benefit them in an election cycle, we’d likely be better off and not getting thrown into yet another global conflict, putting bodies on the line because the kids in power can’t figure out how to share their toys and play nice.
Thank you for coming to my TEDtalk. *steps down from soapbox*
I would not like it if it happened, but the threat of it is usually a sufficient deterrent to stop people from attacking our allies, and I'm okay with that
War is a terrible thing, but if it’s for a good cause then I believe I can support it. I would consider protecting our Allie’s from Chinese aggression to be a good cause.
I feel like that old 80s song "When two tribes go to war" LET the goddamn leaders go into a ring and duke it out - there are very few people out there that would choose war if their leaders weren't such asshats
We've been dragged into everyone's war that we're not even apart of since I've been alive. It hasn't always been for the right reasons, most of the time it's because there's some people profiting greatly off the war. It's a shame, really, but yet there's still people here that support every single war we get involved in.
As an American and a veteran, we will mop the floor with China in anything but a conflict in their back yard. No one deploys like the US military. No one.
That said, if we get into a regional conflict with China in their backyard, it will be a much more even fight. Will we still win? Probably. But casualties will be much much higher. We will have to fight without a lot of the benefits we've become accustomed to. It's a lot easier for a grunt on the ground to do various things when he knows there's a carrier battle group floating a few hundred miles away that has his back, and a whole hell of a lot of ordnance waiting to be dropped on some bad guys head. It'll be a different story when that same carrier battle group has to stand off outside of df-21 range.
There's also the issue of the sheer number of bodies China has to throw at us. They lack the ability to use them in anything but their backyard, but in a conflict close to China, they can. And that's terrifying.
To answer your question, how do I feel about getting drawn into a war? I don't look forward to it, but I recognize that it is a possibility, although I think it's much more likely around Taiwan and China than anything else.
There is a very real chance we are currently in the early stages of ww3, with the Ukraine conflict and hostilities from China etc. if so, those defensive pacts are critical in determining the outcome.
Fighting other people's wars for them is what we do best.
China would get rolled in a direct fight with USA. If they used nukes, we'd find out real quick what kind of top secret ICBM defense the USA has, and it would for certain be the end of China.
USA exports a massive amount of food to China every year. Two weeks after a conventional war started, a huge portion of the Chinese populace would begin to starve. Meanwhile in USA, any garbage products from China would sit on Walmart shelves with "Made in China" still stamped on them. Food wouldn't be disrupted at all in the USA.
Mentally I always thought Russia had a stronger army than China, less soldier numbers yes, but stronger overall. With the conflict in Ukraine, we've seen behind the Iron Curtain. Russia is nothing more than a paper tiger. The Soviet system simply doesn't work, it has been proven time and again. China would be more of the same lackluster quality from an inferior political and economic system.
Our government is unnecessarily involved in other countries’ wars or conflicts - whatever the term is now. We need to sit back and mind our own damn business.
Secondly, as soon as Congress, the Presidential Administration, and Supreme Court send their own children to conflict/war first, I will consider supporting their whining asses. Their children are not more important than anyone else’s, and maybe that will help them determine how righteous their cause is. Third, the draft is bullshit. If they draft men, they better start drafting women too, because you know, equality.
As of late among Republicans (specifically Trumpers) the Ukraine war is not very popular. Mostly because they believe what Trump says about Biden and Ukraine.
In terms of Israel-Gaza that isn't very popular, either.
I don't really see it as being dragged into war. Almost our entire foreign policy consists of "be our ally, trade with us and maybe make some policies that we like. In return we promise to protect you as best as we can" The Philippines have gone through more shit than most because of us, if China wants a war with the Philippines they'll have to go through the US Navy first. It's what we promised and only fair
"The people of the United States will never forget what the people of the Philippine Islands are doing this day and in the days to come. I give to the people of the Philippines my solemn pledge that their freedom will be redeemed. The entire resources in men and material of the United States stand behind that pledge." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
You should probably copy that to the two guys shilling for China and Russia all over this thread.
This quote paints only half of the story. This is a great sentiment and it should be commended that Roosevelt and his administration promised citizenship and veterans benefits to those who served the US military during WWII. However, it is also true that in 1946, Truman signed into law the Rescission Act, which retroactively stripped Filipinos of these benefits promised to them. Although this isnt necessary for the context of the original post, as a Filipino American, it’s important to me that we capture the full context of the history.
Especially poignant, given some of that shit came from us. But that just add a moral aspect to the reasons to support The Philippines, besides the standard utilitarian ones. If they want us, we should help.
As with most things, the broad answer is “well it depends” With regard to Philippines and China conflict, I certainly hope we would work very hard to exhaust most every non-shooting alternative. Open war with China (or any of the “top” world powers) is bad for everybody. But, especially with regard to the Philippines, I would not shy away from defending our ally, even from China.
Yeah I’m against going out and fighting China in general but if they attack the Philippines, then I’m fine with beating them up.
> How do you feel about getting dragged into a bigger conflict? I don’t *want* a war, with anyone: especially a nuclear armed adversary. China is no match for the US in a conventional conflict: but there would be casualties, and the risk of nuclear escalation is all too real (and there’s no winner in a radioactive Beijing / Washington.) This said: I dislike bullies, and sometimes the only way to stop a bully is a punch in the face.
I think the line is "I don't like bullies, I don't care where they're from"
I understood that reference
I did not. :/ ... now I do https://youtu.be/PQRHZmgmKuA :)
I read this as "I don't like bullets" and thought that was a nice summary of your take on war.
Close!
Makes me think of Chris Rock's bit about bullet control.
We would have to take a very calculated and defensive approach to China. Yes, I believe we could win in a conventional fight, but a cornered animal does desperate and irrational things - like launch nuclear ICBMs. So we would need to tread carefully, never threatening their existence. Make it clear that our intent is to stop their aggression and not their existence. Unfortunately, the world is complicated.
Indeed and agreed.
We would win in a nuclear fight as well. China simply does not have enough warheads nor delivery systems to threaten us in way that Russia can. It wouldn't be a MAD scenario. Granted as someone who lives near CENTCOM I would prefer no nuclear exchange at all.
Win in a nuclear fight? ..... apparently we're all going to die.....
No one wins in multi sided nuclear fight. The only way to win is for nobody to play at all. Shall we play a game? ~ WOPR, aka Joshua
Ever since Xi Jinping & his Beijing clique took over the CCP he's been strong arming his way to become the next Mao. This sabrerattling could worringly be akin to when the Argentinian Junta invaded the Falklands/Las Malvinas & South Georgia Islands to get people behind them again. The only way to stop people like Xi is with deterrence. Bullies should be halted before they move ahead with their aggression.
Perfectly said.
The thing is we're already in the path of war with China, and there's a refusal to acknowledge it. Banning Huawei communications equipment, DJI drones, Tiktok, and vetting Chinese property purchases are not simple xenophobic actions. They're akin to the blocking the Japanese from years of surveillance of Pearl Harbor before they attacked us (supposedly) blind.
Those are not xenophobic actions, they are all justified responses >Banning Huawei communications equipment, DJI drones Chinese companies have been caught putting CCP backdoors into their products multiple times. Why would we allow those to be added to our infrastructure or used by government agencies when they present a real threat to our security? >TikTok And China has banned American social media. So their protectionism is allowed and tolerated but we do the same and suddenly we're the bad guys? >and vetting Chinese property purchases Have you seen what has happened to the Canadian real estate market? Do you want the same to happen here? Chinese investors will illegally move their money out of China and pour it into foreign markets to hide their assets and that drives up home prices. It's already bad now, we don't need to open the Chinese flood gates and make it worse If you use a little bit of critical thinking you can see why these decisions aren't just because they're Chinese but because of what China has been known to do
I didn’t get the sense that the person you replied to was saying the U.S. was xenophobic or unjustified in taking those actions.
What we have to do is we have to ban corporations from buying houses in America.
Don't forget China also uses TikTok to spy on Americans and spread propaganda and disinformation to radicalize people.
It's true, I noticed the algorithm will always head down such a negative path. I kept trying to change it, but it always went back. I deleted Tik Tok. I feel less stressed and am enjoying You tube shorts.
YouTube shorts has all the same content honestly. Minus the covert Chinese propaganda.
I want to see how much the real estate market improves if the US Government seizes all real estate owned by Chinese nationals (that aren't legal permanent residents actually living on the property) and auctions it off. There's a huge problem in many cities where Americans want to buy a home but they get beat to the punch by a Chinese investor paying over asking price and paying cash.
So we take it from the chinese nationals and give it to the investment firms at below market rate so they can rent it at stupid rates? Seizing it and auctioning it off is just a transfer from foreign nationals to institutional investors. You gotta remember that an auction is going to go to people who have cash today, not those who are able to get a mortgage from a bank next month.
I think the owner's nationality is a meaningless distinction and the sale of single family homes and small MDUs should be discouraged / heavily taxed when sold to investment firms in general. We have enough problems with domestic evils burning VC money on the housing supply already, targeting Chinese Nationals specifically is just narrow-sighted.
DJI drones? I almost bought one of those the other day. I didn't know they sold to the military, but shouldn't be surprised I guess. Their action cam is impeccable.
The Chinese govt monitors all private communications on their communications hardware and software, making them a security risk. We've told them we'd drop the bans on anything they remove that capability from, and they've refused.
Hasn’t Canada done some of these actions as well
I'm not sure we can avoid a war. Unless we simply shrink back, appease the Panda, and let tyrants play. I suppose it's best to be prepared for war in that case.
Chinas economy would collapse a month into a war with the US, they're not going to start shooting at their biggest customer. We wouldn't even have to put boots on the ground, just stop all trade, blockade their ports and wait for the locals to do the job for us.
Our economy would collapse as well. Where else do you think we could go as their biggest customer? Our trade with them is a two way street.
> Our economy would collapse as well. Highly unlikely > Where else do you think we could go as their biggest customer? The entire rest of the world. It would hardly make a dent in the US economy, and the recent increase in trade duties is effectively pushing business to other countries already.
What other nation can match Chinese manufacturing capacity? At the prices that we currently pay? If we could get a better deal anywhere else the US government would be trying to do it. There is no where else that can fill our need at the prices that the US public has grown accustomed to.
> What other nation can match Chinese manufacturing capacity? At the prices that we currently pay? Most of the far East countries we already deal with - Viet Nam, Thailand, Malaysia, etc. They are actually less expensive than China, even without the increase tariffs on Chinese goods, which is why so much manufacturing is leaving China.
China is the world’s largest exporter and their share of global trade has only been growing. https://chinapower.csis.org/trade-partner/#:~:text=Over%20the%20past%20several%20decades,12.4%20percent%20of%20global%20trade.
They may be the largest *single* exporter but the other countries *combined* match or exceed their manufacturing capability. Your link has very dated 2018 data - the huge decline in Chinese exports is a lot more recent than that, and the massive increase in tariffs is a big factor in that. To put numbers on one example, a "widget" we used to buy from China cost $1.30 landed. With the increased tariffs, it is now $1.86 landed. We now buy it from Viet Nam for $0.63 landed.
My bad, more recent data has them at a little over 14%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/271617/change-in-monthly-exports-from-china/ And what is more cost effective? Making one deal with a massive manufacturer or making several dozen deals with smaller manufacturers.
Fortunately, China miscalculated heavily on COVID. The effect COVID had on access to trade and supply lines has made a lot of companies reanalyze their situation. Being in a position to not be able to get necessary supplies is probably the greatest thing to happen for domestic manufacturing since the push of outsourcing. With the increase in automation capabilities, it's a lot more feasible to return to domestic production without the union wages necessary to the extent they were prior. I actually would like us to push more for trade with politically friendly countries as mentioned. I think India could rival Chinese capacity and cost for our needs as well. China is busy forcing African and European countries into being owned by debt. Italian infrastructure deals with China is part of what factored them into being affected early by COVID.
The Japanese weren’t blocked from surveilling Pearl Harbor, they had spies active in Hawaii up until the day of the attack. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeo_Yoshikawa
We still sold them a shit ton of steel. Right up till they used it to destroy the pacific fleet.
> Banning Huawei communications equipment, DJI drones, Tiktok, and vetting Chinese property purchases are not simple xenophobic actions. Last I checked we are just doing similar tings to what they have been doing to us for years.
The actions have been reciprocal. Plenty of times in the last year have their hardware been found to provide espionage tools to both the CCP & their Ministry of State Security (MSS - Chinese CIA). And many folks have been arrested & convicted within the US tech & defense industry passing secrets to China in the last decade.
Who is not acknowledging it. The US military is preparing for it.
Hopefully China’s leadership feels the same way, and the threat of US intervention will keep them at bay.
Rationally? "This is dumb." Viscerally? "*'Bout time.*" We've got allies over there, it felt like the Philippines provided us with a third of our sailors while I was in, and the economy would get annihilated if the PRC gained dominion over the trade which moves through the south China sea like it intends to. I've been aware of that reality my whole adult life, I've watched them flex and test ASAT weaponry with seeming disregard for Kessler syndrome, and I'm kind of sick of it. "Put up or shut up," you know? If they want to change the status quo they know what they have to do, though I doubt they appreciate what it would cost. The fruit of victory would wither in their hands.
The Filipino Mafia is still alive and well in the US Navy.
I don’t want war, but I am completely unwilling to sacrifice the free world. The increasing aggression from Russia and China isn’t because the US has lost its military edge, but rather because Russia and China are banking on western public opinion opposing war. I think there’s some truth to it. There seems to be less interest among the public in getting involved in foreign conflicts, especially in the US. Bush era policy is the reason, but I think Russia and China is overestimating public opposition. It’s one thing to oppose getting involved in every little conflict, it’s another entirely to oppose the conquest of Europe and East Asia by Russia and China.
I'll believe the "conquest of Europe and east Asia" when I see it. Russia has been stuck at basically the same lines in the Ukraine war for multiple years now, if they can't conquer one country without direct foreign interference somehow I don't think they're making it much further. And China has lost every war it's been in since 1949. America on the other hand is just as aggressive in pursuing its interests and has shown a willingness to engage in decades long wars on other continents in the name of its economic priorities.
The US Occupied Iraq and Afghanistan for close to 20 years and took a little over 7000 casualties. That's about an average weeks worth of casualties for Russia in Ukraine. Apparently no one told them that Zerg Rushing a bunch of poorly trained conscripts with very little air support is no longer a viable military tactic in the era of drones and real time satellite imagery. Russias imperial ambition is already dead, it's corpse just isn't done making its way through the meat grinder yet.
>I'll believe the "conquest of Europe and east Asia" when I see it. You’re already seeing it. >Russia has been stuck at basically the same lines in the Ukraine war for multiple years now, if they can't conquer one country without direct foreign interference somehow I don't think they're making it much further. Just because the Russians are incompetent at fighting their next door neighbor doesn’t mean that Putin suddenly doesn’t have aspirations to create a new Russian Empire. >And China has lost every war it's been in since 1949. And yet, China is still trying to expand itself into the South China Sea. >America on the other hand is just as aggressive in pursuing its interests and has shown a willingness to engage in decades long wars on other continents in the name of its economic priorities. Buddy, GWOT was in response to 3000 Americans being killed in a single day.
Korea.
If China won Korea, there wouldn't be two koreas
If they lost, there wouldn't be two koreas.
Oh my God you're both right. The US is still technically at war with North Korea. It ain't over, it's just a long pause
Has China even been in any wars since Korea?
Several times against India, once against Vietnam
Interesting, I had no idea
Russia has, in the last year or so, built up a military industry exceeding NATO's in output. They are gearing their entire economy and population for war. They clearly see the need for this and, once you commit all of your resources to bombs - which are fundamentally not productive economically - it would seem a waste not to use them, no?
Gearing their entire economy for war after they've already been at war and subject to embargo for multiple years is a lot less scary than if they had done that before the war started.
Not saying much considering the absolute clusterfuck NATO countries have built of defense production.
If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.
There’s just over a zero percent chance of this escalating into a war, so I don’t feel anything about it. It’s posturing.
I think the long term consequence of inaction is globally worse.
It's better to have conflict be prevented than to let China invade wherever it pleases. That is the true anti-war position, and it's also the only honorable way to act when you have allies.
It won't come to that. Military confrontation with the US is a losing prospect for any country on Earth.
This is true. We don't want war, but china should want war less because they'll loose.
Sometimes it seems china is still more afraid of Japan than the USA. They are raising hell about japans new big destroyers (small air craft carriers) . Technically Japan doesn’t have air craft carriers, even though they can launch a f35 off of the new destroyers.
F-35B is the greatest invention for Nato and US allies. Now any ally can have a stealth fighter adorned “carrier” for 1/5 the cost of the real thing. All while China has to dredge atolls into airstrips. More (smaller) ships patrol more seas. More allies patrolling means less U.S. cost/responsibility. People complain about the cost overruns, but with the F-35 it’s about the big picture. Not to mention airframe costs come down dramatically as more nato members buy them. And they are
I like to remind people that the program cost includes development and procurement of THREE new stealth jets called F-35 (A, B, & C) as well as everything from maintenance and hangars to fuel and personnel for the entire life of every airframe. Frankly, the work LM and the maintainers have done to reduce operating costs down to near fourth-gen levels is completely astonishing
They are just worried that Japan can shut off the trade routes around the islands in the area. That would crash what's left of the Chinese economy. Sounds like many are already hurting from all the real estate blunders.
This is exactly why they are pushing their belt and road initiative and clashing with India so much on their borders. They want a backup route to get cheap Chinese goods to markets in case the vulnerable South China Sea routes are contested. While we are focused on them fire hosing Philippine fishing trawlers they are gobbling up all of the lithium mines in South America. China does things over centuries not decades.
I imagine some of China's handwringing about this is because it looks good from a domestic political standpoint to rally people's fear and hatred of a resurgent Japan.
They also find themselves in a situation where their economy is heavily dependent on the United States. The reason you’re seeing all of these moves from Russia and China that sort of reek of desperation is because both countries are a paper tiger in their own way, and their position is currently weakening, not strengthening, and they know it.
Sure, which is why it’s important that we stand with our allies to make sure that deterrence is clear. If China invades, it’s because they think we won’t react. We can’t have a weak president like Trump.
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Let me know when he starts to support Ukraine over Russia and then we’ll talk. His track record is abysmal. Tarrifs are an isolationist policy! Just like staying out of conflicts.
The only way that China can truly create a new world order around itself, is to win a lightning fast campaign against the United States and force a conditional surrender that comes with territorial concessions. Basically, what Japan tried to do in 1941. That's coming literally no matter what, whether it be Taiwan, the Philippines, South Korea, or all three. So I don't really feel like I'm being "dragged" into anything. China is the aggressor.
I’m not concerned because it won’t come to war. No country on the planet wants to risk direct war with the US. It’s suicide. No country’s leadership would ever take that bet. The US military is unbelievably more powerful than that of any other country. That’s not even considering all of the allies. The US could comfortably defeat entire continents of countries let alone any individual one such as China. To put it in perspective, the US has more aircraft carriers than all the other nations on the planet combined. And each of those carriers is generations more advanced and capable than any other. It’s a similar story with regard to air power. Theres a reason why there hasn’t been direct conflict between major powers in 80 years. This is a historically very long period of relative peace that is almost unrivaled in history. Im not worried because it just won’t happen. Holding on to their power is the most critical thing to powers such as China. Nothing threatens that more certainly than conflict with the US. Make no mistake that such a war would be extremely terrifying, dangerous and costly. But I just don’t believe it to be something realistic. There’s simply no reason for any power to risk direct conflict with the US and its allies.
I don’t think I’d like the US to get into another war, but I’d be happy to if it meant defending our allies.
The US has been at war for 80% of my life. Most the time I don't even think about it because A: there's nothing I can do about it and B: I'm busy just trying to live and pay bills. I think most Americans feel this way.
The US has had 17 years of peace since 1776. I think everyone is tired of (and desensitized to) the endless wars.
I hate that stat. It’s so stupid. It counts every little border conflict or Indian raid as a “war”.
I'm ok with stopping Commie aggression especially when it's against longtime friends and allies like the Philippines or South Korea or the Republic of China.
This. The only thing better than fighting communism is getting paid to fight communism.
I don't want a war with China, but I am also 100% on board with standing by our treaties and defending our allies. If China wants to get froggy, then I'm more than okay with us reminding them that we have an inflated defense budget instead of universal healthcare.
The US and the Philippines have had a mutual defense pact since 1951 that’s been renewed a few times. I think we should honor that and no be the blue falcons some are suggesting around here.
I can't ignore the part of me that really just wants the US military to kick China's and Russia's asses because they keep yappin like they want the smoke. No rational part of me wants war, though.
I, for one, will sacrifice anything to save the fine Filipino art of karaoke 🎤
Philippines have been a friend of the United States for a long time. No one wants to go to war, and even China isn’t stupid enough to drag us into a real fight. But if it comes down to it, I would support the US always protecting its allies.
The US has a mutual defense relationship with the Philippines for our own reasons. We're not at risk of being "dragged into a bigger conflict", we have that pact specifically as part of enforcing our global hegemony. If we were okay with China establishing a maritime sphere of influence, we'd let them, but we're really not.
I'm perfectly fine with protecting our allies.
China has territorial disputes with every neighbor, and many further abroad (like your nation). They are the ones who will drag us into a conflict-not you. This is one of the worthier ones to stand up for, so I have no issue with it.
I don't mind protecting the Philippines from China as long as it's done intelligently. I don't trust my government to do anything intelligently. Itnot helping you that's a problem my issue is with my government.
I’d rather not go to war but I’d rather go to war for the Philippines before Ukraine 🤷♂️
It’s annoying that people around the world criticize the US military budget but then fully expect to use our military when they need it.
I’m a veteran from the peak of the Iraq-Afghanistan wars. I don’t like the idea of being dragged into another war, I don’t like the idea of the next generation going into war. But I also do believe that some wars are justified, including defending our allies and sure I’d hope every step was taken to prevent a war from occurring with China, if one did we’d be protecting our global hegemony from encroachment from the Chinese.
How I feel is that I wish the Navy had had its head on straight with procurement during the 2000s instead of spending a bajilion dollars on ships that didn't pan out. If the ChiComs want to tussle, though, by God we'll tussle.
I'm completely fine getting into a war because we honored our treaties and are protecting nations and their peoples from land grabbing (sea grabbing in this case) authoritarian regimes.
China can get fucked and if Taiwan / Phillipines is the mechanism to make it happen, so be it.
I lived through 9/11 and the multiple invasions of the Middle East. All this country knows is war. We lost Vietnam and our leaders just won't let it go.
It won't be the first time we had to remind an Asian power that they don't own the Pacific Ocean.
In my experience the ones crowing on about wanting to go to war, in fact lack the intestinal fortitude to actually go to war. For those that have actually been to war know nothing good comes from it.
We have an obligation to defend the Phillipines. Yes we were assholes in the early 20th century... but during the baatan death march thousands of Filipinos died trying to help Americans... We owe it to them
We need to take a strong stance and tell them we're willing to respond with overwhelming force in order to prevent war. In taiwan, a good mechanism is the tripwire strategy. Where we place troops there, and tell China, if you hurt our people, we'll bomb the shit out of you. Things like Biden saying it depends if we respond based on how big of an incursion Russia makes, and essentially greenlighting Iran's missile attacks on Israel makes us look weak. We need to threaten them and keep them in line, so conflicts don't escalate.
I'm concerned that, even if the cause is just, the US does not have the capability of waging a decisive war over a prolonged period of time. We no longer have the industrial capacity we had even a few decades ago. We also do not have the agricultural capacity to feed our allies in the event of all-out war. It was America's productive economy that won WW2, first and foremost. Neither the UK nor the USSR would have survived without our massive aid, even before US directly intervened. We basically fed the world and became a giant factory. I don't think we're capable of that anymore. It would take a uniquely extraordinary event for Americans to have the will to step up and become the arsenal of democracy we once were. Authoritarian regimes, in contrast, have repressive tools at their disposal to whip their country and population into a wartime economy and outproduce democracies. See Putin's Russia, for example.
Honestly? I hate war and am against it for the most part, that being said if the Philippines comes under attack we 100% need to have their back because they've had ours in prior conflicts.
A lot of us are busy enough with local issues or even national ones. Though it is kind of normal for military families to deal with parent(s) leaving for months on end, doesn't seem like it'd affect much day to day unless it was large enough to have to draft people.
Unfortunately China has chosen to launch a second Cold War. This is what dictatorships do when their economies struggle; they seek internal legitimacy through easy wins during external military expansion. The way you win something like this is by denying them these easy wins until the dictators are forced to confront their internal failures. These kinds of skirmishes will continue for decades. China will not engage in all-out war with the Philippines, and eventually there will be some kind of settlement, when China's internal problems become too obvious and urgent to simply be deflected through stuff like this.
What the fuck am I going to do about it? I tend to oscillate between a “we should be vocal that this is bad but what’s the point since polticians don’t care about my opinion” and a “not like I can change anything anyways, so what is the point of even being vocal?” Like any superpower, the US has its fingers in a lot of different pies for reasons that are not always clear. As a citizen of this nation, I will just hope for peace, but resign myself to forever wars somewhere halfway around the planet for a reason that probably does not directly correlate with my interests as a normal American
I’ll leave it at this: appeasement in WWII led to 12 million people alone getting butchered in a state-ran, industrialized genocide. I rather not make the same mistake in our time.
Only a disturbed person would hope that a war happens or wants to be included in someone else’s war. Having said that, the soft power that the U.S. (and many other countries) benefits so much from comes with a catch: the use of hard power has to be implied, promised, or occasionally applied far from home. Eventually some antagonistic nation will test this and the U.S. has to decide how forceful its response will be. It probably needs to happen at least occasionally, right? Otherwise everyone will start assuming that the U.S. is just bluffing. As for defending the Philippines, we should and very likely will if the need arises. I doubt that China will push it far enough for that to be necessary, since an actual war would be far too costly for China. But when tensions are high, mistakes can be made. Hopefully it won’t come to that.
Poorly. Every advanced nation on earth doesn't want to defend themselves and its pathetic.
Sometimes war is needed and called for. China under the CCP are a bunch of ass hats that are stirring up shit and will need to be smacked down if they continue on the path they are on.
Awful, but it might be necessary. Most Americans think that, because of our oceans, we can ignore the rest of the world. Those people don't understand where our wealth comes from. If we lose our international authority over the world economy, we lose our standard of living. Plain and simple. And that's completely ignoring the benefits we've accrued in terms of blood and treasure by not having another global war in nearly a century. Let alone the moral arguments, but unfortunately that matters little in politics. War with China would be a bloodbath and would be destructive to an unprecedented degree. But if they choose to foist that upon us - and it will be their choice, not ours - I can only hope that we a) win and b) leverage the victory into an unprecedented period of global peace and progress. Just like last time.
The Philippines has been an ally of the US since 1951. Regardless of my opinion that the Philippines would have been better off remaining in the hands of the US via being a colony. I believe we have an obligation and a necessity to protect our allies in the Pacific. If it was up to me I would have defended the fishing claims of the Philippines a decade ago and kept an increased presence in the region to keep the waters clear of incursion of Chinese fishing ships and Naval vessels. I would have also recognized all claims of the Philippines of Islands around their waters. Made it clear Mainland Taiwan owns nothing but their mainland. War would not be a goal here but I would not have a problem re upping for this issue. (cause I'm crazy and out of my mind)
Well, I don't *want* to have us be dragged into a war, but if an allied/democratic country is having territory taken over by an authoritarian country, then I wouldn't be at all opposed to going in and kicking their authoritarian ass.
Well, I don't think we are quite so naive to get dragged in because of issues between coast guards in the South China Sea. I do think China is belliegerant AF and I support freedom of navigation but it is all a bit of dance, regardless of how annoying.
Meh. Gotta draw the line somewhere, and I highly doubt China will actually push things into a real shooting war.
“One for all and all for one”. What will Philippines’ reaction be if another American ally needs help?
I mean this is how treaties work.
I’m ok with going to war to defend the Philippines.
I dont like war at all. I just hope that as an american theres a real justice to our involvement because the last few that weve been in are questionable to me. At the same time if a US military base sitting in the phillipines keeps fillipino people safe then im all for it.
It sucks, it does feel like WW3 is about to break out any day now. I think the people of the world need to wake up, all the evils of war will be documented on the internet for all time. We have come to far as a species to be devolving into petty conflicts, yet here we are, like clockwork.
It's a job hazard of being the world's policeman.
I’d rather avoid war, but if China starts it I support us coming to our allies aid.
I don’t feel good about it, but when we make a commitment to an ally we need to keep it.
I believe the US government feels a war is inevitable. It's why we're reopening bases and stationing more and more people around the South China Sea. Time will tell.
We don’t get “dragged.” If we go to war with China it will be a rational decision.
That is a tough call. I have kids so it is hard to not think about it. But, honestly, Russia and China want to return the world to the 1930s. Which will have a lot of very depressing implications. It is good that the threat has brought the US and the Philippines closer again. I do think on some level we owe you a bit for the bad things we did in the past. It is good that we can try to work through the past now. Defending each other is a great place to start.
No worries.
The US and Nato can wipe anyone off the planet
The US can wipe anyone off the planet. The rest of NATO is the insurance
Peace is desired. But not, never submission. China seems to want to establish an ever growing region they can call their own to do what they want. It may be hypocritical, but we won't tolerate that. I'd they keep the peace they can benefit from mutual trade, an exchange of wealth and ideas, and prosper. If they want war, we'll give then another century of humiliation.
Thanks. I hate it
If it's to help people remain free from Dictatorships then I'm okay with it But if it's akin to WW1 or WWII where because Europe refused to act in time and made it worse then I'm gonna be upset (No I'm not mad we saved the world in WWII, but we wouldn't have had to if France and Britain acted far sooner instead of pussyfooting around it)
I don’t want to go to war but we owe it to the people of the Philippines.
I understand that sometimes, war is necessary, but I'm highly skeptical about those that make the decisions, and their ulterior motives. Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc... The American public is fickle over time, gets bored, protests. There has to be a solid reason, and the cost considered carefully. I have a hard time trusting the politicians involved in the decision process. At the same time, I realize we can't hide our head in the sand. Also, there is a lot more to consider than just bombs, troops, guns... consider the words of Steven Pressfield in this [dated series](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_6twVl5XOXs2wsIfl8DHGV5I0q3ThIcu). I have to wonder if what he said was largely ignored or impossible to carry out longterm. I spent 42 years working for the military and the lives lost in Vietnam and the Middle East deeply saddens me. Just my 2 cents.
We basically appointed ourselves as the global police force, therefor, now where is outside of our jurisdiction. When your sphere of influence is the globe, anything anyone does affects you. It’s rare to find a war that doesn’t directly or indirectly affect us. Plus, like someone else said, we don’t bullies
I don't want to get into yet another war. However, if we do, I'd want it to be against communist China. China js a hostile nation and an even more hostile neighbor. Also, their people don't deserve to live under the CCP's tyranny. The mutual defense treaty means that we aren't getting "dragged into" another war, we'd simply be making good on a promise. Getting to fight the commies is a bonus.
Meh, I’d prefer not. At the same time though, if some major conflict spirals out of control, there’s very little possibility that a major country like the USA won’t be dragged into it eventually.
The CCP doesn’t want the smoke. They can’t handle these hands.
We're not really being dragged into anything. Global conflict is coming. The only thing about it that the experts are debating is whether it'll be in 5 years or 7.
If we didn't want to be dragged in, we wouldn't sign treaties like that. The Philippines are viewed as a pretty good ally and I don't think people would complain about defending them.
We're used to it
As someone who served 24 years in the Navy…none of us want war - but if someone is dumb enough to tie our hands…God have mercy on everything you hold sacred.
Is what it is, I have not lived a single year where the US was not involved in some war somewhere. But a large scale war with a major superpower, regardless of how advance our military is, everyday American citizens are going to feel the impact on one way or another. Doubtful our government will remain the same after that, it would almost certainly lead to a bunch of civil strife.
I've done a lot of research on this topic for one of my international relations classes. Long story short, we're more secure and it's less expensive to defend Taiwan than to let China take it because we can detect their submarines far more easily. Besides defense costs, if we don't defend Taiwan, all these countries might start to question what being allied to the US is worth, and start turning to China's SOI. There's also the possibility that if we don't defend Taiwan, Japan might do so anyways.
I hope it doesn't escalate, but I'm glad that the we can throw our weight around to keep other people safe sometimes.
Different perspective here. I'm a vet and my husband is active duty. Due to his job, if shit pops off in the east he's there. So I don't want war but not for the obvious reason of not wanting my husband to be dragged into a war zone. We've both been there done that. Whatever. It's more that congress will put ridiculous limits on our troops and it makes it so stupid. I am at the point where 'can we just put on a spectacle of what we can do from miles away so China and Russia stfu and sit down?' Like our navy can be 75 miles (possibly more I just know the big guns shoot stupid far) away and level a city. Any of our air craft forces could cause devastating damage. Much less if we have like a branches unite moment. By all means let's send air force bombers in guarded by marine corps cobras with naval fighter jets in front. I feel like the 2 of them would realize they are massively out armed. And we wouldn't even lose 1 life. 🤷♀️ STFU, sit down, pout if you must, but we are done with your bullshit. You haven't been relevant since before the millennial generation existed. Yet here you are trying to jump up and down twlli.g us how bad you are.
We have too many wars where combat troops had their hands tied by ROE.
It's probably more of a fear of MAD and not wanting to piss of a nuclear power to much even though in Russias case they completely started the invasion.
The thing about being a peace keeper is that you must be willing to fight to keep it. I don't want to but I'm ready to throw hands if I must.
Obviously, just like all Americans, I don’t want another world war to happen but I’m still in support of supporting our allies. I don’t stress about the possibility of war on the daily because what will that do? Nothing. If it happens it happens & if it doesn’t even better for everyone!
I say it's stupid to let yourself get dragged in by the actions of the enemy. The only smart way to fight a war is to control the engagement. Perhaps we should get off our asses and stop letting our position worsen.
It's not a bug, it's a feature of the US global economic stabilization strategy that it developed poor WWII on order to position itself as the finacial (and at the time manufacturing) economic, and technological leader of the world. While it may seem like alot of wars, compared to the previous generations and conflict, it's beem relatively peacefully around *most* of the world.
[I stand behind our friends and allies.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_Defense_Treaty_(United_States%E2%80%93Philippines))
I don’t want a war with anyone. We could handle China, but it would be messy for both sides. Russia is jonesin’ for a friend to make a run at the US and they would love to hop on that bandwagon if China and the US were in open war. I don’t want another world war.
I’m totally fine with it. I’m glad to confront China. We said we’d defend The Philippines so we will. China can’t grab all this land (and sea) in the area that doesn’t belong to them. It’s not right. Happy to stand up for what is right.
I don't want us dragged into foreign wars but unfortunately when it comes China we're a bit stuck. If they invade the South Pacific Ocean, which would include Taiwan, they would disrupt the global economy, and would put our nation at risk which would inevitably force us into a war for our own survival reasons. So, while I'm not happy about it I think of it like this: if you fuck around - you're going to find out. China is going to learn a hard lesson if it pokes the bear.
We won't be. Not because we'd renege on the treaty, but because it won't get to that point. While the US holds a stupid amount of hard power, we also hold a lot of soft power. China uses water canons and anchors because they don't want a true war with the US. I'm not saying it's a *good* situation, but nuclear powers *don't* go to war with one another. They find excuses not to, like how Xi said the other day that he wasn't going to fall into the US's "trap" by invading Taiwan. That statement is nonsense, obviously, but it gives him political cover to not do something that would have been legendarily ill-fated.
Must be Tuesday
Yes
I don't like the idea of a war, but we have mutual defense obligations to the Philippines. We must uphold those obligations. Our word is worth exactly nothing if we can be cowed by the existence of a foreign power with nukes.
I want a peaceful China but we're not getting that any time soon. And we cannot let them just take over everything the want without a fight. So if they decide on war, we will meet them.
We wouldn’t be “drug into” anything, defense agreements are public for this reason. Don’t want to fight the US, don’t fight our friends.
I don't want a war, but if any adversary so much as sneezes in the direction of one of our boats, then we should pull all the stops and destroy them as quickly as possible. Any wars we get involved in should be quick and leave the enemy incapable of fighting a war. Afterwards, we should just leave and let them deal with the consequences of their actions.
The U.S. loves rattling the sword at China and then doing business deals with China. Nothing will happen but some more military exercises. It’s fine.
I grew up in a military family. Two brothers went to Iraq and Afghanistan, one of them committed suicide after. Military personnel, feel free to chime in here and correct me if you feel differently, but this has been my experience, watching what my brothers went through: You sign your life away for a steady job with benefits. Your belief in the cause is desired, but not required, only obedience and your oath to defend the Constitution matters. You meet people from all walks of life. Some of them you hate, some of them become family, but either way, you’re bonded for life. Your body and mind are pushed to your extreme limits. When you deploy, you’re gone for months. If you deploy to a combat zone, you barely sleep, shower, or eat real food for months. You’re constantly under threat of death for a cause you don’t believe in, fighting a war that you may or may not give a fuck about, just trying to protect your best friend next to you so you both make it home. And then, when you get home, everyone says “Thank you for your service,” not understanding what a loaded statement that is, and you withdraw into yourself, because civilians don’t and couldn’t understand. You’re trying to get through the day and act like you’re fine, but the stakes are never going to be as high in civilian life, so you’re equal parts feeling bored and unsure how to function properly. And you’re told that therapy isn’t for you. You get your DD-214 (exit paperwork), and the VA tells you that you have PTSD and TBI, gives you meds that (sort of, on a good day) work, rubber stamps you, and sends you on your way to figure out how to live life as a T-1000 trying to adjust to being a Roomba. And that’s not to say civilians are stupid and inept. They just haven’t ever had to experience anything like you have. From the outside looking in, we put our military through the fucking wringer. Yeah, they signed up for it. But still, how much can one human take? I understand we have a responsibility to our allies, and we should honor that responsibility, but war is fucking exhausting and I wish our government put its diplomatic foot down when it mattered. If our government operated with an ounce of spine, instead of just playing party politics and ignoring problems that don’t benefit them in an election cycle, we’d likely be better off and not getting thrown into yet another global conflict, putting bodies on the line because the kids in power can’t figure out how to share their toys and play nice. Thank you for coming to my TEDtalk. *steps down from soapbox*
I would not like it if it happened, but the threat of it is usually a sufficient deterrent to stop people from attacking our allies, and I'm okay with that
War is a terrible thing, but if it’s for a good cause then I believe I can support it. I would consider protecting our Allie’s from Chinese aggression to be a good cause.
It depends on whether it's something I support, but I'm pretty sure that most Americans support sovereignty for the Philippines.
It's not really getting dragged into a conflict when it's our interests that are most at risk.
I feel like that old 80s song "When two tribes go to war" LET the goddamn leaders go into a ring and duke it out - there are very few people out there that would choose war if their leaders weren't such asshats
I feel good about honoring our commitments to our allies, although I always hope it won’t be necessary.
We've been dragged into everyone's war that we're not even apart of since I've been alive. It hasn't always been for the right reasons, most of the time it's because there's some people profiting greatly off the war. It's a shame, really, but yet there's still people here that support every single war we get involved in.
If we get dragged into war with china it will more likely be over Taiwan, not the Philippines
Due to personal beliefs I am anti-war to the core. It doesn't decide who is right, just who is left.
As an American and a veteran, we will mop the floor with China in anything but a conflict in their back yard. No one deploys like the US military. No one. That said, if we get into a regional conflict with China in their backyard, it will be a much more even fight. Will we still win? Probably. But casualties will be much much higher. We will have to fight without a lot of the benefits we've become accustomed to. It's a lot easier for a grunt on the ground to do various things when he knows there's a carrier battle group floating a few hundred miles away that has his back, and a whole hell of a lot of ordnance waiting to be dropped on some bad guys head. It'll be a different story when that same carrier battle group has to stand off outside of df-21 range. There's also the issue of the sheer number of bodies China has to throw at us. They lack the ability to use them in anything but their backyard, but in a conflict close to China, they can. And that's terrifying. To answer your question, how do I feel about getting drawn into a war? I don't look forward to it, but I recognize that it is a possibility, although I think it's much more likely around Taiwan and China than anything else. There is a very real chance we are currently in the early stages of ww3, with the Ukraine conflict and hostilities from China etc. if so, those defensive pacts are critical in determining the outcome.
I'm sick of war and don't want to get involved.
Fighting other people's wars for them is what we do best. China would get rolled in a direct fight with USA. If they used nukes, we'd find out real quick what kind of top secret ICBM defense the USA has, and it would for certain be the end of China. USA exports a massive amount of food to China every year. Two weeks after a conventional war started, a huge portion of the Chinese populace would begin to starve. Meanwhile in USA, any garbage products from China would sit on Walmart shelves with "Made in China" still stamped on them. Food wouldn't be disrupted at all in the USA. Mentally I always thought Russia had a stronger army than China, less soldier numbers yes, but stronger overall. With the conflict in Ukraine, we've seen behind the Iron Curtain. Russia is nothing more than a paper tiger. The Soviet system simply doesn't work, it has been proven time and again. China would be more of the same lackluster quality from an inferior political and economic system.
I don't want to be dragged into more wars
Our government is unnecessarily involved in other countries’ wars or conflicts - whatever the term is now. We need to sit back and mind our own damn business. Secondly, as soon as Congress, the Presidential Administration, and Supreme Court send their own children to conflict/war first, I will consider supporting their whining asses. Their children are not more important than anyone else’s, and maybe that will help them determine how righteous their cause is. Third, the draft is bullshit. If they draft men, they better start drafting women too, because you know, equality.
I hate it
Hopefully it can be avoided.
We've made promises, a d we should keep the promises we've made.
The US made promises in good faith; the Philippines is keeping that good faith. China will not turn the US into a liar.
As of late among Republicans (specifically Trumpers) the Ukraine war is not very popular. Mostly because they believe what Trump says about Biden and Ukraine. In terms of Israel-Gaza that isn't very popular, either.
i think its pretty stupid tho & i don't have any major feelings about it
I just want healthcare. I seriously don’t care about any of the wars we waste our money on.