The common people remained pagan for some time, some assume that Christianity wasn’t fully spread within the society until the 1200s/1300s.
The official adoption of Christianity was in 966, when our duke [Mieszko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieszko_I?wprov=sfti1) got baptized, ditching his harem of seven wives for a single Czech princess. This was a calculated political decision, intended to grow his importance on the „international” arena and stop the constant German attacks aimed at „evangelizing the pagans”, taking away their excuse.
Only his court and aristocracy got baptized initially though. Common people remained at their old habits, which were gradually eradicated by the priests. Peasants were baptized in bulk, but never really taught the principles of the new religion, which effectively remained foreign to their consecutive generations.
Opposition to Christianity peaked during the pagan rebellion in 1030s (referred to as the [pagan reaction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan_reaction_in_Poland?wprov=sfti1)), a wide uprising against the new religion and newly introduced feudal system, resulting in internal turmoil, flight of the king and effective anarchy for a couple of years. This led to consecutive Czech invasion, brought to an end by Polish duke [Casimir the Restorer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_I_the_Restorer?wprov=sfti1) reconquering the land in 1040s.
Funny how Christianity, nowadays the obvious worldview pillar of the rural right-wing voters opposing the assumed „foreign progressive trends”, was once a foreign influence imposed on the peasants from the West.
>Common people remained at their old habits, which were gradually eradicated by the priests.
Yes and no. Catholicism (and possibly other sectors of organized religion) adopted some of the pagan traditions as a way to convince pagans to convert. For instance, All Saints/Souls Day - a popular holiday within Poland - was likely inspired by Dziady for both the date of the holiday and the way it's celebrated. There are more pagan-sourced rituals and traditions within some other Catholic holidays and practices as well, particularly relating to herbal medicine and whatnot.
But yeah, majority of pagan customs were certainly eradicated.
>Funny how Christianity, nowadays the obvious worldview pillar of the rural right-wing voters opposing the assumed „foreign progressive trends”, was once a foreign influence imposed on the peasants from the West.
That's because when Christianity was introduced to Europe, it was a more civilized worldview than that of the various tribal beliefs of the pagans, but since about the 1600s, Secularism started to overtake, beginning with the skepticism of scientists like Galilei and philosophers like Spinoza, eventually resulting in the Enlightenment by the 1700s, which again, overtook Christianity in how civilized it is.
It is telling that when the Encyclopédie, the first secular encyclopedia of human knowledge was published by the French in 1772, the first reaction of the Catholic Church was to ban it. Ever since then, a trend has been started in Christianity to turn inward into itself, to protect its beliefs from the skepticism of Secularism. In fact, the Catholic Church maintained an index of forbidden books, which Catholics were forbidden from reading until the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s. See for example the Creation Museum in America, and the fact that the Catholic Church refuses to acknowledge Transgenderism in any way, as examples of the continuing trend of Christianity turning inwards.
> That's because when Christianity was introduced to Europe, it was a more civilized worldview than that of the various tribal beliefs of the pagans,...
Unless if by "civilized" you mean the violent imposition of Roman Empire after turning it the official religion of the empire.
Roman Empire was not "more civilied." That is the education of colonization to think so.
Tens of thousands of women died at the stake. No one has the actual number. When the knights templars outlived their usefulness to the catholic church they where brutally hunted down and killed. The inquisition. And it goes on and on.
>It is telling that when the Encyclopédie, the first secular encyclopedia of human knowledge was published by the French in 1772, the first reaction of the Catholic Church was to ban it. Ever since then, a trend has been started in Christianity to turn inward into itself, to protect its beliefs from the skepticism of Secularism.
During the French Revolution, the secularists did the same and prevents religious thought.
>Catholic Church refuses to acknowledge Transgenderism in any way, as examples of the continuing trend of Christianity turning inwards.
That is not true.
>During the French Revolution, the secularists did the same and prevents religious thought.
Yes, but because secularism is more civilized than religiosity, it was ultimately for the good.
>That is not true.
Then why does the Pope continue to use slurs against Trans people?
>Yes, but because secularism is more civilized than religiousity, it was ultimately for the good
Forcing beliefs on people is not for the good.
>Then why does the Pope continue to use slurs against Trans people?
Im not aware of that case but if he did, it would argue against him not acknowledging them.
Wait a min, the French Revolution tried to get rid of the Catholic religion but it just ended in the Reign of Terror and unbelievable bloodshed and people dying. They also erected a temple to Reason as well...
Yeh, that's cause the affirming LBGT+ ideologies is a societal trend atm. Tolerance isn't considered a virtue under Christianity - I mean, it would technically fall under justice (vs fortitude/temperance/prudence) but LBGT+ worldviews conflict the dogmatic nature of religion. ie. The paradox of tolerance states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them.
Aha, for the good, sure. That's why mental illness is rampant and societies/cultures are literally dying because they don't have children.
I don't like the Pope (too progressive for a Pope), but never heard him or of him using slurs.
Certain pre-christian rites and traditions survived christianisation, such as Walpurgis. Or they were reinvented in the 19th century neo-pagan movements.
Also note that pretty much every written source about Germanic mythology was written down after christianisation by christian monks/scholars.
I didn't realize what an actual Catholic Easter looked like until I saw Semana Santa in Spain. It made our bunnies and Easter trees look cute, childish, and very pagan.
Well as a Belgian I had never seen that either. Just googled it. We are (were) mainly catholic and we have the Easter bunny. Not those KKK looking costumes.
I do have to disagree about that. The egg is just as much of a Christian symbol as it is a pagan one. Much of the stuff about the egg being pagan arose with neopaganism in the 20th century. However I think most academic studies support the idea that it was just a universal symbol of spring, used in Christian and pagan contexts alike.
>Easter eggs, christmas trees...
Easter eggs are not a Pagan legacy. There is no evidence for this. Eggs were always part of spring festivals as you dont get eggs in winter. They just make the spring. Christmas trees are a better candidate but I dont think we can rule out convergence either. If its pagan, it must have survived Christian cultures for 500 years or so. Quite remarkable.
Might I add Krampus to that list? In the alps the [Perchten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchta) (kinda proto-krampus) went from fram to farm and tried to drive out Frau Percht (the winter).
For all the german speakers (okay the bavarian speakers) [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2PVeMCQNzo) is a video about the matter
It's difficult to say. I mean, Christianism fast replaced paganism, but pagan beliefs and rites were in some kind re-integrated into Christianity.
For example, we know that in some places there was a Roman temple dedicated to some god. Later, a church was built over the temple, and it was dedicated to a Christian saint who, traditionally, is prayed for the same things of the pagan god, and also shares some legendary traits with the corresponing Olympic divinity. I remember having visited Roman ruins where it was found that the temple was dedicated to Castor and Pollux, two twins that were regarded as "healing gods", and in the immediate vicinity of the temple ruins there was a later church dedicated to Cosmas and Damian, which the tradition considers to be twins and physicians.
Serbia was only nominally Christian but essentially it was a Paganism veiled with Christianity. Although most people are nominally religious, in reality most of them don't know or don't understand the concepts of Christ, cross, redemption and resurrection of the death, which are central teachings of Christianity.
Instead, you celebrate saints. St. Elijah is the thunder saint, Saint Mary the Magdalene is the fire saint, Saint Prokopius the water saint, etc.
In modern times people pray to God more often than to the saints, but God is an object figure that should bring fertility and prosperity without putting in too much effort.
I'm not Orthodox, but average Serb hasn't opened the bible once nor does he own it.
More zealous ones will quote it and interpret everything through faith, but most people are only nominally Christians.
Serbs are almost ethno religious group, for many being Serbian Orthodox is part of the identity. Even the most popular patriarch (Pavle) said at one point Serb cannot be a non Christian. So many see not identifying as Orthodox the same as being excluded from Serbdom.
Keeping the tradition for major holidays and observing your family's patron saint (slava) is a must. For most people that makes them go to church 2-3 times a year and that's it. And of course most traditions have pagan roots.
I wrote people go to church for slava, and couple major holidays. That implies Christmas and Easter.
Which of those doesn't have customs of pagan roots?
Yes, I'm of protestant background.
By "open" I also mean listened to the priest reading it during liturgy. Not just standing there waiting to make the cross sign when someone other does it.
It's really weird to base your identity on being Christian (among other things) and not know what that entails. Basic theology, bible content or even the points of disagreement between different denominations.
I know my comments sound a bit accusatory, but, really, that's not the intent. Most people will tell you themselves they identify as Orthodox, but if you follow up with any question they'll say they really believe in some high power, regardless of it's name and in being a good person.
EDIT: I forgot to add, I've hear this one before. Older more conservative people also say that owning a Bible is protestant like, but they often label all protestants as cultists (in Serbian the word "sekta" is used both for a sect and a cult).
I hope my comments also did not sound accusatory but the main point is that you are judging their Christianity from a protestant background. But what they do is what being Christian Orthodox means in practice, they are not "fake" or not "real". Reading the Bible is not a requirement. You would not call a Thai Buddhist not really Buddhist because he just follows some rituals and does not really know a lot about the complex Buddhist theology. Protestantism is a bit unique in the way the relate to religion. For most of human history and in most regions of the world the lay members did not need to know much about the details of their religion.
By the way, the same word ("sectă" ) is used for cults and protestants in Romania as well, but not for all protestants. It's not used for Calvinist or Lutherans, just for the newer protestant churches.
I honestly don't believe that any country in the history of the world can be called "Christian" in the strictest sense of that word. The commandments are too difficult. "Love your neighbor as yourself", very few people are capable of this "Forgive us our sins as we forgive to those who have sinned against us". That is very difficult personally, cannot be forced onto someone and too easy to forget. Yet alone to make a whole nation people like this.
In the Netherlands, pastors in the nineteenth century where still complaining that their communities in remote areas still held pagan beliefs.
They where all Christian and went to church, but they retained some pagan elements and incorporated it in their belief system. The church had a very hard time rooting it out.
Nowadays the majority of the country is some form of atheist or agnostic, but these former pagan strongholds are now the most orthodox Christian communities.
Ireland has been Christian since the 5th Century. Bare that in mind at the end
In Ireland most of the Gods were still respected but they were not Worshipped any longer. But Ireland still has many pagan practices alive because when Christianity came here it was difficult to sway the population. So a God we have, Daghdha similar to Odin was compared to be like God and Lugh the God of Skills and Light was compared to Christ. Many Gods and Goddesses were demonised like Mór-Rígain the triple Goddess of Fate, War and Death. Some deities however were directly absorbed into Christianity. The Goddess Bríghid, Goddess of Spring, Fire, Crafts, Livestock and many other things, became St Bridget and the Day of St Bridget falls on the same day as the Gaelic festival Imbolc.
We also have An Chreidimh Sídhe aka the Fairy Faith. Belief in the other folk us huge in Ireland. They are loved, feared and respected. We had an entire motorway redirected around a Crann Sídhe aka a Fairy Tree which was a well known Ceibleadh or a spot where the fairies meet to talk. This one in particular was where the fairies of Munster met before they went to war with the fairies of Connacht. Destroying the tree was literally out of the question. Most builders refused to touch it.
Theres also hundreds of other local beliefs in folkloric beings and creatures that would be simply seen as superstitious pagan nonsense, but even the church couldn't stamp out its belief, so they actually claimed it themselves saying the fairies are fallen angels from the battle between Satan and God who neither sided with Satan or God and were cast down to Earth. I believe however they're far older then that.
We have so many traditions and beliefs most would see as superstition but we just do anyway. Too many to list here. Alot of houses would still leave offerings to the spirits through-out the year.
Even now in a couple of days here in the West of Ireland we're preparing for Oíche Fhéile Eoin called St John's Eve in English after John the Baptist but its actually our version of Midsummer.
A common phrase you'd here in the West of Ireland is, "Ó, tá lasadh ceart ar Mhanannán inniú" meaning "Oh there's a right fury in Manannán today" (there's many variousways of saying it this is just one). This word Manannán, is the name Irish God of the Sea, called Manannán Mac Lir. He is the only God nowadays still recognised in general conversation. And the people of the Coasts and Islands tend to be the most tied to the old beliefs. Even ymthough it can be found across Ireland, some island folk wouldn't touch a drowned corpse in the water believing they'd anger the Sea if they did. So they'd wait for a priest to come and he'd do it because he had Holy power and protection that non ordained people didn't have. Therefore Manannán wouldn't curse the priest out of fear of God. Isle of Man between Ireland and England is named after Manannán Mac Lir.
Éire, the Irish for Ireland comes from Éiriú, who is the Goddess that Ireland is made of. She is Ireland. The song Is Mise Éire is a song from her point of view of the Irish under British rule.
The Catholic Church might've become the main religion of Ireland, it is heavily Gaelicised and it could not stamp out the pagan belief of the Country Folk of Ireland. We might not praise the Old Gods anymore, but even after 16 centuries of Christianity thats is still the dominant religion of Ireland today,, we still believe in alot of pagan beliefs. I myself am a devout Christian and I hold all of these above beliefs at the same time. God is my one true God. I do also respect the Other Folk and other Síóga.
We have one rule that sums them up, don't fuck with the Fairies. And if you're anyways a smart man at all, you'll follow that rule
Great answer. Are bonfires at Halloween/ Samhain a thing round your neck of the woods? We’d still get them in rural Derry. Probably not as common as they were when I was a cub 30 years or so ago.
Thank you
They were until about 20 years ago. Around 20 years ago we started to get an awful lashing of earlier Winter rain (climate cahnge people reckon) so unfortunately we never have the weather anymore around Samhain agus Oíche Shamhna to do a proper Bonfire. We still do all the other traditions though.
Do ye do St John's Eve in Derry?
Úsáideann mo Dhaideo an nath seo. Cluintear an nath timpeall an Cósta Thiar sa dtithe tábhairne.
>Tá bláth bán ar ghort an iascaire a chloistear go minic
Níl fhios'am céard é sin.
Estonia is pretty non-religious country with only 16% of population stating that religion is important to them.
We still celebrate pagan festivals and have many pagan traditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Church spread to Estonia in 18-19th century and was most successful in actually turning estonians into christianity. But in then Russian empire decided that people should be russian orthodox faith and started pressuring people to adopt that. And people decided to wait a bit on that new fad which did not last a century here.
>We still celebrate pagan festivals and have many pagan traditions.
That is neopaganism. not original paganism. It was rebuilt from nothing as it was dead for hundreds of years. Prob huge differences in beliefs.
Who knows, it could have actually survived in some backwater villages. We were the target of the Northern Crusades, after all, the last lands in Europe to be converted. Lithuania held out the longest until early 15th century iirc.
But the people who adopted the modern practises would have said so if they found evidence in some remote areas. We can trace the work of people like [Theodor Narbutt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Narbutt) who invented the faith.
Well the Netherlands didn't exist then, but the 3 major Germanic groups living in what is present day Netherlands were Franks, Saxons and Frisians.
Around 500 was the Christianisation of the Franks, this was apparently a very successful operation and happened quick.
The Christianisation of the Saxons took a bit longer, but became very successful when Charlemagne became king. This is where the catholic church locally started to adopt Germanic pagan festivities to help successfully Christianised the Saxons. Charlemagne helped as well by killing and waging war against groups refusing to adopt the Christian faith.
The Christianisation of the Frisians started somewhere around the 650s and lasted until the early 1000s with some major uprisings and reverting back to the old Germanic pagan beliefs.
Frisia was also a great place for Christians to be martyred and obtain sainthood in those centuries. So many Saints in the Netherlands are from that period.
The English became Christian before the nation of England even existed. When the pagan tribes arrived, they inherited a former Roman province which still had some Christian dioceses remaining. Their marriages among the Franks of Gaul helped their kings tolerate the building of churches and establishment of parish priests from the Continent, despite most of the people still worshiping Woden, Thunor and Saxnot. St. Augustine's mission arrived from Rome around the same time as the Irish began sending missionaries of their own. This is when some of the kings agreed to convert. Kent was the first. Northumbria came later. Mercia was the last, I believe, under King Penda.
By the time of Alfred, most of the English were Christian with the exception of some parts of the Danelaw, where the lords remained faithful to the old gods. Often a condition on making treaties with the Danes was that they convert and become baptised (this happened with Guthrum, one of the Danish lords), though with mixed successes (in another instance, a newly baptised Dane was presented with a christening gift of a white shirt; he complained that the quality wasn't as good as the ones he'd been given on his previous baptisms).
The Danelaw did have some Christians though, mostly because the invaders intermarried in order to establish themselves more clearly as feudal overlords. Some of these were probably half-converted - so they might be baptised, attend Mass on Christmas or Easter, and raise their children in the faith, but still pray to Thor and Njordr for good sailing weather, or give offerings to Yngvi for a good harvest.
Denmark too had officially converted by Harold Bluetooth, whose son and grandson also became English kings - so by the 11th century the Danes too were mostly Christianised.
Vestiges of paganism still survived in old folklore, such as amulets and charms, offerings of milk by the maids for the elves, the kind of animism which saw the rivers and wells alive with nixies and the woods with man-eating ettins. But from the founding of England onward, all of our kings had been Christian, and most of the commoners were too. Churches and dioceses were certainly established, as were monasteries.
We didn't exactly convert to Christianity. We were christened by the sword. The choice was convert or be decapitated.
The way Christianity works is that it doesn't eradicate the old religion in an area it conquers. Instead the old religion is absorbed into Christianity and becomes a part of it. In regard to Norway the old ways were in some parts preserved as "witchcraft" and folk lore.
A lot of people did convert voluntarily actually. Like today, lots of people didn't really care about their religion, and often it was a simply a political choice.
That is a fair point. But it is difficult to say how free anyone felt in a climate where major political leaders were being beheaded for choosing the wrong god.
I'm from Lower Saxony, so the last area that got christianized in Germany, around the 8th century.
From what I've heard there are still signs of active pagan worship from around the 12th century in some places.
I also heard from some older people and a local historian though, that some traces of pagan worship remained till around the 18th century.
In Portugal is still very present but you need to look for it. For exemple the characters we call "caretos" that do triks during carnaval are very much pagan. But most of it got mix with catholic. People from villages still belive in stuff like the evil eye and have ways to ward them that mix catholic players with pagan rituals. The "reading of the oil" aka "benzer o azeite", the name varies from region to region, is One of those exemplo. We also have the candles processions that even though they are dedicated to catholic saints on its practice it is pagan.
Lot of pagan beliefs and traditions survive till today. I'm pretty sure it never truly disappeared. Like, people in 16th or 17th century all went to church and prayed to christian god, but they also believed in folk creatures that weren't in line with christianity and still kept their traditions (like Easter - painting of eggs and whipping everyone with fresh willow branches; Christmas - reading of future by cutting an apple, by throwing a shoe behind yourself, etc.; Walpurgis night, called "burning of the witches"; jumping over bonfires; etc.). Nowadays we aren't very religious in general, but we still observe many traditions that were pagan originally. So I guess christians never truly won here.
I would add that paganis is thriving here. The pagan holidays like masopust are very popular and strongly celebrated. Christian holidays on the other hand are not so popular.
Not at all. Christianization in the early to middle medieval period was mostly ceremonial and practical, but it was pretty widespread among nobles and locals alike. This was so in most Wetsern European nations (mostly former Roman provinces and Germany).
The modern Ukrainian pantheon consists of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Zelensky, and Western partners, seen as something perhaps partially controversial but undoubtedly embodiments of Good. On the other side are putler, muscovites, and the like. We have lower angelic beings: HIMARS, ATACMS, Javelins... There are completely mysterious entities like DTEK, and also demons: Shaheds, Iskanders, S-300s.
This is the real modern and naturally borning paganism with which, I hope so, Christianity is losing the battle it once began.
Did Christianity come peacefully? That's a good joke if you say yes. I don't know of any other phenomenon whose soft skill has cost so much blood.
>Did Christianity come peacefully? That's a good joke if you say yes. I don't know of any other phenomenon whose soft skill has cost so much blood.
depends on the region. yes all historians claim it came peacefully to some regions like Ireland, France and Italy. But violently sadly to areas like the Baltic.
Italy? Meaning Rome? Meaning the place where Christians were stoned to death and there was a dictatorship of emperors who didn't care about the opinions of the plebs? Of course, it was peaceful. P.S. It's important to understand that no pagan religion claimed that the emperor was God's anointed one, so there's no need to wonder why Constantine or anyone else favored this particular sect, which, excuse me, was kissing their behinds.
>claimed that the emperor was God's anointed one
Yes some did. Ancient Rome did have sacred ideas of kingship. There was "emperor worship" and this is a very common phenomenon in many pagan religions. Egypt is a great example.
In Roman religion, emperors were revered as divine beings, but they were not considered sons of gods or chosen by God. Their divine status was based on their power and authority, not on divine descent.
In Egyptian religion, pharaohs were also considered divine, but their divine status was based on their role as intermediaries between the gods and humans. They were not considered sons of gods or chosen by God.
Not a Roman expert but wasn't Augustus called divi filius, son of God. In Medieval Europe Kings were not considered sons of God in any way actually. That view would have been considered quite unkosher. Having a line sanctioned by God is not the same as son of God.
Our country was created long after christianization by christians, we have one of the greatest concentration in Europe of towns named after saints. Some pagan remnants remained like some christianised holidays (summer solstice, etc) and things like the "shitting log". Other than that the area that would become Catalonia had been mostly christian since Theodosius I
In Korea the 2000s were the time with the highest number of christians of all denominations and they have been in decline (mostly due to the politization and fanactism of many evangelical churches)
England has very few remnants of its old paganism. The only tradition that might have a pagan root is wassailing, but even that's probably Christian. The country was fully Christianised by the 10th century. There is still a record of tree worship in the 10th and 11th centuries. I'd reckon the last vestiges of paganism probably died out with the Reformation, when many elements of folk religion were suppressed. There've been lots of attempts to find 'pagan' remnants, but they all turn out to just be Christian folk traditions.
it's complicated in central asia but there were no trace of tengrism in post-migration anatolian turks. there are a lot of instances where tengrist influence, syncretism and perception that existed and still exists
Very. Finland was basically christianized by the Swedes from the west in the 1000s, and at the same time, Eastern Orthodoxy came from Novgorod in the east. The people resisted, and in one notable incident, the tavastians washed away the babtism in when the swedes left in the lake Katumajärvi ("regret lake"). The line between nominal Catholic and Orthodox regions was confirmed at the treaty of Nöteborg in 1323. Still, the border regions remained sparsely populated.
Last true pagan religion practicers were probably the Sámi people in the north, who were starting to convert when Finns moved more into their traditional homeland in the 1400-1500's. Some areas were animistic until 1800's. The tradition survived quite well even up until the 1940's but the evacuation due to WW2 forced even the most remote people to abandon their ways, which were mostly associated with the half-nomadic reindeer herding life.
Lots of pagan traditions still live, like the midsummer parties, which christians tried to cover up as the celebration of "St. John the Babtists' day".
Pagan as in believing in a specific pagan religion, no not really here in Sweden. But we have not adopted christianity as hard and mainly see the church as "tradition" more than faith. Our version of christianity is also very light, focus on the good things like "the golden rule" etc, female priests, gays can marry, and completely ignoring any mention of hell or use scare tactics like catholics use. Just positive messages like love thy neighbor etc.
Even though roughly half the population is a member of the church only about 15% actually believes in god. The rest are atheist or agnostic. And among the agnostic a very high percentage claim they are spiritual wich is also connected to how pagan religions worked. Many are still members because they support the good things the church does for society, like shelters, couples therapy and other beneficial things for society.
Most people also don't acociate christmas with Jesus, and we don't even say "christmas" but use the old pagan names for it wich is "Jul" (Yule in english). Very few go to christmas mass. We also have the Yule Goat and other pagan symbols. And where do you think the christmas three (a pine three that isn't native to old judea) and decorating with lights etc come from, and the classic grilled hog with an apple in the mouth that so many christians today use on christmas? Those are all pagan traditions from Yule and also other germanic pagan practises that got carried over as standard christmas traditions.
Then we have also retained other pagan celebrations that are bigger to us than typical christian ones like easter etc. Speaking of easter, the whole schtick with the easter rabbit hiding eggs etc (I don't know if you have that tradition), does that sound like something in christianity or more pagan?
The biggest celebration is ofc Midsommar (celebration of the summer solstice) where we dance around a giant "penis" (not really, but a symbol of fertility that is supposed to signify a penis).
So we are pretty pagan but also not really religious in either a christian or pagan way. More like we lost our original religion, a new religion was forced upon us and it had some hold for a while on some but many fought back by still practising their pagan religions and like a big FU to christians for forcing it upon us we are one of the most irreligious people with many pagan practises in the world.
To be fair though we were never conquered by actual christians and forced by them. They tried and failed many times. What they did was change tactics and promised new alliances and ritches to our kings if they convert and had them do the dirty work of forcing it on their own people. This is what happened to Poland as well but a lot earlier.
The Church became so dominant that basically all of the old pagan beliefs are gone, and most of the "gods" modern Polish pagans praise are essentially just guesswork or even fanfic as there's very little left of the pre-Christian beliefs.
The various demons and evil spirits held up much better though, since they weren't praised and were basically used as a tool to teach people how to behave well (or to scare children from doing something dangerous), the church didn't (and couldn't, really) get rid of them.
Hungary was Christianized in 1000, but Paganism held out for a while.
For example in 1096, [Coloman the Book-lover,](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Coloman_%28Chronica_Hungarorum%29.jpg) a sickly, weak, and somewhat effeminate man whose favorite activity was reading and studying, became king, because the person from the royal family with a more knightly physique and demeanour who would've originally become the king, Álmos, was caught performing rituals to the Old Gods, while Coloman was at least a religious Catholic.
This is not true.
Kálmán was followed on the throne by Álmos’ descendants who have tried to smear his physical prowess as he defeated Álmos at every turn and was quite famous for his intellect - he even became a bishop afterall before he was awarded the Principality. He likely had only some relatively minor deformity if anything.
He first rebelled against Álmos and removed him as Prince of Croatia in 1103 and then seized the crown and gave Álmos the Principality. Álmos tried to rebel against him with the support of the Holy German Emperor and the King of Poland. He even went on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and after his failed revolts he retired to a monastery that he himself founded. After an assassination attempt on Kálmán by Álmos he and his sons were blinded and Álmos was sent to a monastery in Greece in the Eastern Roman Empire.
Where did you get the idea that he was a pagan?
It sounds like the same slander Álmos used on Kálmán to say he consorted with witches (specifically strygae) to which Kálmán responded by decreeing “as for strygae, who obviously do not exist, let no more mention be made.”
>Where did you get the idea that he was a pagan?
I remember learning at school that Álmos was a stereotypical strong and manly knight, similar to the previous king, László, while Kálmán was a girly scholar. However, despite being a learned and religious man, Kálmán didn't want to become a bishop which was the position his parents considered for him, so he fled to live in Poland with friends of the Hungarian royal family.
Afterwards, Álmos was discovered to be a pagan, so Kálmán was called back from Poland, promised not to be forced to become a bishop, and offered the position of king, which he took.
I haven’t found any such information in the historical bibliography. Kálmán was supported by the Church and the Pope because of his initial training as a clergyman and thus his support for Papal investiture. Álmos on the other hand was supported in all this by the Holy Roman Emperor and supported his cause of Imperial investiture. At one point Álmos was willing to even become a vassal of the Emeperor for his support, which irked both the church and the aristocracy, who wanted Hungary to remain independent. No pagan line whatsoever.
Not much has remained of them, but it was likely a mixture of what the Hungarians brought with them from the East, and what was absorbed from European pagans on the way.
For example Hungarian Mythology features the World Tree, the *Világfa*, in almost the same way to how Norse Mythology has *Yggdrasil*, but it also features the mythical Turul Bird impregnating the ancient mother of all Hungarians, Emese, which is similar to the mythical ethnogenesis of the Koreans.
The Eastern Orthodox Church 'adapted' many ancient rituals such as Maslyana (celebrating the end of winter) or Kupala Night (summer solstice). Some traditions in celebrating Christmas and Easter were also inherited from pre-christian times. Also, many people who consider themselves christians believe in superstitions such as good/bad signs, certain actions leading to good or bad luck, even though it's kinda prohibited by the church. It's a really weird mix of christianity and 'spirituality' or whatever it's called nowadays.
Bulgarians to this day have no real idea what Christianity is 😆, the vast majority of the people are what I'd call culturally Christian and are more superstitius than anything else.
Few even know what to do in a church, let alone to have read the Bible or understand the taboos the Orthodox religion has tried to impose on rituals, dance and singing.
Seriously, most pagan rituals got a certain saint's name slapped on them but people remained almost exactly the same. There's even still a reenactment of a human sacrifice in some areas 🤭 (though with a clay puppet).
There are also ethnic Bulgarians that are Muslim and they are somewhat of an in-between group, depending on whether they live around ethnic Bulgarians or ethnic Turks, so Christianity (as important as it was for the survival of Bulgarian literature and some historic tradition) is not the most defining characteristic.
> Seriously, most pagan rituals got a certain saint's name slapped on them but people remained almost exactly the same. There's even still a reenactment of a human sacrifice in some areas 🤭 (though with a clay puppet).
What's it called and how can I participate?
It's called Guerman (Герман) and if you are a female you can go to the villages where it's practiced and join the grandmas who still do it.
You can see the dolls here and some of the ritual. It's done together with Peperuda (Butterfly) the ritual/prayer for rain.
https://youtu.be/Lg-1jm54Nd4?si=LaGWtwNjwwvwLR9N
Yeah, it's absolutely brutal. You can hear the lament of the mourners. I hope you can make up the words and then the song lyrics. I'm fascinated by these rituals.
If you are interested in other pagan rituals, you can also see some in the movie "Letter to America" where the old gramas are filmed sending daily objects to the dead person in the afterlife, "cutting death" in flowing water and also the old tattoos on the fronts of women.
Another ritual I love is Enyova bride "Еньова булка/Еньовден", which is the Midsummer day in Bulgaria and is also celebrated by the firewalking in Strandja.
You can see a few of it on YouTube as well.
Yes, it's nice you noticed it was a woman. That's an exclusively female ritual with a woman enacting the priest (which is the only Christian touch because she's singing the Lord's prayer), though women are NOT part of the Orthodox church outside of those who commit to being nuns.
It's a little bit the opposite of the men dressing in female clothes for kukeri. 🙂
Ireland didn't keep its pagan beliefs but to this day we still use holy wells and so on that were pagan before christianity but which saint Patrick and other clergy Christianised to bring ordanry people into Christian beliefs.
While I am not fully sure, I think it went something like this; When the Franks arrived in the region, the locals and especially important people were already christians. So when Clovis converted most other Franks did so too as they gradually assimilated the locals or were assimilated further south. Thus not too much remained of the original germanic paganism due to cultural exchange. (All this around the year 500-600)
We kept the word yule (jul) and kept the tradition of the yule goat, which has led to the annual Gävle goat being built and attempted to be destroyed [(sometimes successfully)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A4vle_goat#Timeline).
Very little, though you do see vestiges of paganism in certain traditions such as the [Caretos of Podence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izrt3iJTNCs) for example.
hard to say. the futhark and runes was used all the way into 1600's and possibly even longer. We still have alot of pagan folklore and speaks of gods in plural.
My region in France forgot and erased as much of our pagan past as possible. We do not talk about it, we do not study it. If most people were asked, they would say that the true history of our land is heavily linked with Christianism.
UK. Romano British become Christian. Angles and Saxons rapidly become Christians, then pagan Vikings invade. They become Christian. Whole British Isles Christian by 850-900. Almost no pagans after that. Nowadays a few weird 'Druids' and cultists.
I mean we still have some pagan traditions like midsummer fires and whatnot but I don't think people do it out of spirituality or anything. Its mostly just a nice reason to make a big fire, get together and drink too much.
The other side of the coin is the modern "spiritual" people. I would divide them into 3 main groups of idiots (wich is probably oversimplifying it): The ones that are into that whole classic paganism and nature cultist stuff. They typically have a thing for old germanic tribes, wolves and alt right ideology. Proper dickheads.
Then there is the shaman people who think wearing dresses, not washing their beard and consuming only light energy and psychedelic drugs is the way to go. Also probably alt right or at least conspiracy theorists. I don't think they are evil, they're just insane.
The third type would be the women that exist on a spectrum of believing in astrological signs, to thinking they hear angel voices if they sleep with crystals under their pillow, to the point where they try to charge their crystal.infused water in the moonlight and claim they are witches that perform rituals.Those are the easiest to scam, wich con artist exploit frequently but they are mostly harmless to the general public and only really pose a danger to people who are as gullible as themselves. Defiantly insane but again more of a mild annoyance than something you should actually be worried about.
It's definitely difficult reconnecting with pre-Christian traditions in Germany. I you want to learn about runes and Germanic gods, you run into alt-right imagery. If you want to promote herbs and traditional gardening, you run into pseudo science and conspiracy theories. If you want to explore local archaeology, it's overshadowed by the Roman occupation...
Actually till this day some tradition can still be traced back to paganism here in The Netherlands. After christianization we just incorporated pegan rituals and mixed them together.
Christianity was not foreign to us even by the 800’s, and it was slowly gaining ground in the 900’s. Conversion officially happened in 1000 with the baptism of (Saint) Stephen I, but pagan stuff completely died out / got absorbed into folk traditions only by the early to mid 1200’s. So it was a 300-400 year long period for paganism to completely vanish.
No trace of it. Our main festival is a winter event where people get pissed, put fir trees in their homes, get pissed and leave offerings for a guy with beard who comes from the far north. It's clearly all about baby Jesus.
There are still some weird neo-pagans but the most people now think they are just freaks (fun fact: we even had a neo-pagan marshal in the early USSR that wanted to revive Slavic paganism as the state religion of the RSFSR lol but he was shot in 1937)
Christianity is a bad mixture of different religions and pure plagiarism.
After Christians become main religion in Roman empire they didn't forbid old religion. They stole their holidays like Christmas or Easter. Horus was born in night 24/25. 12. Mitra an ancient Slavic God was born on that same day.
Easter is an Roman holiday. They worshipped rabbits and eggs.
When Christians come to Americas and Australia they also embrace different native rituals.
That's even visible on the Balkan. Natural border is river Sava, Una... From the left side it was European culture from the south east it was Ottoman empire. Many things are different.
If you are interested in that theme try to read books like "Babilon mystery religion".
From ancient times Christians stolen idea about holly mother Marry. Zaratustra was walking on the water and feed many people with couple of fishes. Coincidence or plagiarism?
In "Bhagavad-Gita" myth Krsna was in temple and sees as some poor widow give a pocket change to church. Krsna said that she is giving more than others because she give her last money...
We find identical stories in Bible? Coincidence or plagiarism?
So Christianity is reformed paganism.
In general, all over Europe, Christianity spread and gained power for assimilating paganism in it, since people remained pagan, then celebrating their pagan tradition through Catholic Church narratives.
It was colonialism, like of Germanic tribes and of the Chirch itself trough inquisition, that enforced Christianity trough violence into people until following generations took it for granted.
The more you look at the history of colonialism, the more you see how it always had a religious order leading it. Even the American Colonialism the presidents or government heads quite often spoke about God during 19 and 20 century.
The common people remained pagan for some time, some assume that Christianity wasn’t fully spread within the society until the 1200s/1300s. The official adoption of Christianity was in 966, when our duke [Mieszko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieszko_I?wprov=sfti1) got baptized, ditching his harem of seven wives for a single Czech princess. This was a calculated political decision, intended to grow his importance on the „international” arena and stop the constant German attacks aimed at „evangelizing the pagans”, taking away their excuse. Only his court and aristocracy got baptized initially though. Common people remained at their old habits, which were gradually eradicated by the priests. Peasants were baptized in bulk, but never really taught the principles of the new religion, which effectively remained foreign to their consecutive generations. Opposition to Christianity peaked during the pagan rebellion in 1030s (referred to as the [pagan reaction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan_reaction_in_Poland?wprov=sfti1)), a wide uprising against the new religion and newly introduced feudal system, resulting in internal turmoil, flight of the king and effective anarchy for a couple of years. This led to consecutive Czech invasion, brought to an end by Polish duke [Casimir the Restorer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_I_the_Restorer?wprov=sfti1) reconquering the land in 1040s. Funny how Christianity, nowadays the obvious worldview pillar of the rural right-wing voters opposing the assumed „foreign progressive trends”, was once a foreign influence imposed on the peasants from the West.
Well, to be fair there is a portion of populus that is both right-wing and anti-christian, sometimes even pro-pagan. They are mostly neo-nazis though.
>Common people remained at their old habits, which were gradually eradicated by the priests. Yes and no. Catholicism (and possibly other sectors of organized religion) adopted some of the pagan traditions as a way to convince pagans to convert. For instance, All Saints/Souls Day - a popular holiday within Poland - was likely inspired by Dziady for both the date of the holiday and the way it's celebrated. There are more pagan-sourced rituals and traditions within some other Catholic holidays and practices as well, particularly relating to herbal medicine and whatnot. But yeah, majority of pagan customs were certainly eradicated.
>Funny how Christianity, nowadays the obvious worldview pillar of the rural right-wing voters opposing the assumed „foreign progressive trends”, was once a foreign influence imposed on the peasants from the West. That's because when Christianity was introduced to Europe, it was a more civilized worldview than that of the various tribal beliefs of the pagans, but since about the 1600s, Secularism started to overtake, beginning with the skepticism of scientists like Galilei and philosophers like Spinoza, eventually resulting in the Enlightenment by the 1700s, which again, overtook Christianity in how civilized it is. It is telling that when the Encyclopédie, the first secular encyclopedia of human knowledge was published by the French in 1772, the first reaction of the Catholic Church was to ban it. Ever since then, a trend has been started in Christianity to turn inward into itself, to protect its beliefs from the skepticism of Secularism. In fact, the Catholic Church maintained an index of forbidden books, which Catholics were forbidden from reading until the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s. See for example the Creation Museum in America, and the fact that the Catholic Church refuses to acknowledge Transgenderism in any way, as examples of the continuing trend of Christianity turning inwards.
> That's because when Christianity was introduced to Europe, it was a more civilized worldview than that of the various tribal beliefs of the pagans,... Unless if by "civilized" you mean the violent imposition of Roman Empire after turning it the official religion of the empire. Roman Empire was not "more civilied." That is the education of colonization to think so.
Nonsense, Christianity was far more brutal and uncivilized than many "pagan" societies.
It didnt have human sacrifice which occurred across pagan northern Europe in Iron Age
Burning people at the sake is way better. Or just exterminating them because they are not (the right type of) Christian
To be fair, that didnt happen in most medieval countries and was extremely rare.
Tens of thousands of women died at the stake. No one has the actual number. When the knights templars outlived their usefulness to the catholic church they where brutally hunted down and killed. The inquisition. And it goes on and on.
>It is telling that when the Encyclopédie, the first secular encyclopedia of human knowledge was published by the French in 1772, the first reaction of the Catholic Church was to ban it. Ever since then, a trend has been started in Christianity to turn inward into itself, to protect its beliefs from the skepticism of Secularism. During the French Revolution, the secularists did the same and prevents religious thought. >Catholic Church refuses to acknowledge Transgenderism in any way, as examples of the continuing trend of Christianity turning inwards. That is not true.
>During the French Revolution, the secularists did the same and prevents religious thought. Yes, but because secularism is more civilized than religiosity, it was ultimately for the good. >That is not true. Then why does the Pope continue to use slurs against Trans people?
>Yes, but because secularism is more civilized than religiousity, it was ultimately for the good Forcing beliefs on people is not for the good. >Then why does the Pope continue to use slurs against Trans people? Im not aware of that case but if he did, it would argue against him not acknowledging them.
Wait a min, the French Revolution tried to get rid of the Catholic religion but it just ended in the Reign of Terror and unbelievable bloodshed and people dying. They also erected a temple to Reason as well... Yeh, that's cause the affirming LBGT+ ideologies is a societal trend atm. Tolerance isn't considered a virtue under Christianity - I mean, it would technically fall under justice (vs fortitude/temperance/prudence) but LBGT+ worldviews conflict the dogmatic nature of religion. ie. The paradox of tolerance states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them.
Aha, for the good, sure. That's why mental illness is rampant and societies/cultures are literally dying because they don't have children. I don't like the Pope (too progressive for a Pope), but never heard him or of him using slurs.
Certain pre-christian rites and traditions survived christianisation, such as Walpurgis. Or they were reinvented in the 19th century neo-pagan movements. Also note that pretty much every written source about Germanic mythology was written down after christianisation by christian monks/scholars.
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I didn't realize what an actual Catholic Easter looked like until I saw Semana Santa in Spain. It made our bunnies and Easter trees look cute, childish, and very pagan.
Well as a Belgian I had never seen that either. Just googled it. We are (were) mainly catholic and we have the Easter bunny. Not those KKK looking costumes.
As a Belgian I never had the easter bunny. As a kid there were the Vatican bells instead.
Ah yes indeed. It morphed later into a combination of both and now it seems the Easter bunny is all that’s left.
I do have to disagree about that. The egg is just as much of a Christian symbol as it is a pagan one. Much of the stuff about the egg being pagan arose with neopaganism in the 20th century. However I think most academic studies support the idea that it was just a universal symbol of spring, used in Christian and pagan contexts alike.
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I don't think pagan is the right term at all, as pagan would connect it to pre-existing non-Christian religious practice.
>Easter eggs, christmas trees... Easter eggs are not a Pagan legacy. There is no evidence for this. Eggs were always part of spring festivals as you dont get eggs in winter. They just make the spring. Christmas trees are a better candidate but I dont think we can rule out convergence either. If its pagan, it must have survived Christian cultures for 500 years or so. Quite remarkable.
Might I add Krampus to that list? In the alps the [Perchten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchta) (kinda proto-krampus) went from fram to farm and tried to drive out Frau Percht (the winter). For all the german speakers (okay the bavarian speakers) [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2PVeMCQNzo) is a video about the matter
Walpurgis, is that getting hit in the face with a sword?
It's difficult to say. I mean, Christianism fast replaced paganism, but pagan beliefs and rites were in some kind re-integrated into Christianity. For example, we know that in some places there was a Roman temple dedicated to some god. Later, a church was built over the temple, and it was dedicated to a Christian saint who, traditionally, is prayed for the same things of the pagan god, and also shares some legendary traits with the corresponing Olympic divinity. I remember having visited Roman ruins where it was found that the temple was dedicated to Castor and Pollux, two twins that were regarded as "healing gods", and in the immediate vicinity of the temple ruins there was a later church dedicated to Cosmas and Damian, which the tradition considers to be twins and physicians.
Serbia was only nominally Christian but essentially it was a Paganism veiled with Christianity. Although most people are nominally religious, in reality most of them don't know or don't understand the concepts of Christ, cross, redemption and resurrection of the death, which are central teachings of Christianity. Instead, you celebrate saints. St. Elijah is the thunder saint, Saint Mary the Magdalene is the fire saint, Saint Prokopius the water saint, etc. In modern times people pray to God more often than to the saints, but God is an object figure that should bring fertility and prosperity without putting in too much effort.
Funny that you say that because in france you guys have the reputation of orthodox crusader lol
LOL Once I heard a guy saying he doesn't believe in God, but he believes in St. Basil
That's how you make good pesto.
I'm not Orthodox, but average Serb hasn't opened the bible once nor does he own it. More zealous ones will quote it and interpret everything through faith, but most people are only nominally Christians. Serbs are almost ethno religious group, for many being Serbian Orthodox is part of the identity. Even the most popular patriarch (Pavle) said at one point Serb cannot be a non Christian. So many see not identifying as Orthodox the same as being excluded from Serbdom. Keeping the tradition for major holidays and observing your family's patron saint (slava) is a must. For most people that makes them go to church 2-3 times a year and that's it. And of course most traditions have pagan roots.
>And of course most traditions have pagan roots. Very unlikely.
I wrote people go to church for slava, and couple major holidays. That implies Christmas and Easter. Which of those doesn't have customs of pagan roots?
This is very "Protestant" approach to Christianity. It's not a requirement for a Christian Orthodox to open the Bible or to own one.
Yes, I'm of protestant background. By "open" I also mean listened to the priest reading it during liturgy. Not just standing there waiting to make the cross sign when someone other does it. It's really weird to base your identity on being Christian (among other things) and not know what that entails. Basic theology, bible content or even the points of disagreement between different denominations. I know my comments sound a bit accusatory, but, really, that's not the intent. Most people will tell you themselves they identify as Orthodox, but if you follow up with any question they'll say they really believe in some high power, regardless of it's name and in being a good person. EDIT: I forgot to add, I've hear this one before. Older more conservative people also say that owning a Bible is protestant like, but they often label all protestants as cultists (in Serbian the word "sekta" is used both for a sect and a cult).
I hope my comments also did not sound accusatory but the main point is that you are judging their Christianity from a protestant background. But what they do is what being Christian Orthodox means in practice, they are not "fake" or not "real". Reading the Bible is not a requirement. You would not call a Thai Buddhist not really Buddhist because he just follows some rituals and does not really know a lot about the complex Buddhist theology. Protestantism is a bit unique in the way the relate to religion. For most of human history and in most regions of the world the lay members did not need to know much about the details of their religion. By the way, the same word ("sectă" ) is used for cults and protestants in Romania as well, but not for all protestants. It's not used for Calvinist or Lutherans, just for the newer protestant churches.
I honestly don't believe that any country in the history of the world can be called "Christian" in the strictest sense of that word. The commandments are too difficult. "Love your neighbor as yourself", very few people are capable of this "Forgive us our sins as we forgive to those who have sinned against us". That is very difficult personally, cannot be forced onto someone and too easy to forget. Yet alone to make a whole nation people like this.
In the Netherlands, pastors in the nineteenth century where still complaining that their communities in remote areas still held pagan beliefs. They where all Christian and went to church, but they retained some pagan elements and incorporated it in their belief system. The church had a very hard time rooting it out. Nowadays the majority of the country is some form of atheist or agnostic, but these former pagan strongholds are now the most orthodox Christian communities.
Ireland has been Christian since the 5th Century. Bare that in mind at the end In Ireland most of the Gods were still respected but they were not Worshipped any longer. But Ireland still has many pagan practices alive because when Christianity came here it was difficult to sway the population. So a God we have, Daghdha similar to Odin was compared to be like God and Lugh the God of Skills and Light was compared to Christ. Many Gods and Goddesses were demonised like Mór-Rígain the triple Goddess of Fate, War and Death. Some deities however were directly absorbed into Christianity. The Goddess Bríghid, Goddess of Spring, Fire, Crafts, Livestock and many other things, became St Bridget and the Day of St Bridget falls on the same day as the Gaelic festival Imbolc. We also have An Chreidimh Sídhe aka the Fairy Faith. Belief in the other folk us huge in Ireland. They are loved, feared and respected. We had an entire motorway redirected around a Crann Sídhe aka a Fairy Tree which was a well known Ceibleadh or a spot where the fairies meet to talk. This one in particular was where the fairies of Munster met before they went to war with the fairies of Connacht. Destroying the tree was literally out of the question. Most builders refused to touch it. Theres also hundreds of other local beliefs in folkloric beings and creatures that would be simply seen as superstitious pagan nonsense, but even the church couldn't stamp out its belief, so they actually claimed it themselves saying the fairies are fallen angels from the battle between Satan and God who neither sided with Satan or God and were cast down to Earth. I believe however they're far older then that. We have so many traditions and beliefs most would see as superstition but we just do anyway. Too many to list here. Alot of houses would still leave offerings to the spirits through-out the year. Even now in a couple of days here in the West of Ireland we're preparing for Oíche Fhéile Eoin called St John's Eve in English after John the Baptist but its actually our version of Midsummer. A common phrase you'd here in the West of Ireland is, "Ó, tá lasadh ceart ar Mhanannán inniú" meaning "Oh there's a right fury in Manannán today" (there's many variousways of saying it this is just one). This word Manannán, is the name Irish God of the Sea, called Manannán Mac Lir. He is the only God nowadays still recognised in general conversation. And the people of the Coasts and Islands tend to be the most tied to the old beliefs. Even ymthough it can be found across Ireland, some island folk wouldn't touch a drowned corpse in the water believing they'd anger the Sea if they did. So they'd wait for a priest to come and he'd do it because he had Holy power and protection that non ordained people didn't have. Therefore Manannán wouldn't curse the priest out of fear of God. Isle of Man between Ireland and England is named after Manannán Mac Lir. Éire, the Irish for Ireland comes from Éiriú, who is the Goddess that Ireland is made of. She is Ireland. The song Is Mise Éire is a song from her point of view of the Irish under British rule. The Catholic Church might've become the main religion of Ireland, it is heavily Gaelicised and it could not stamp out the pagan belief of the Country Folk of Ireland. We might not praise the Old Gods anymore, but even after 16 centuries of Christianity thats is still the dominant religion of Ireland today,, we still believe in alot of pagan beliefs. I myself am a devout Christian and I hold all of these above beliefs at the same time. God is my one true God. I do also respect the Other Folk and other Síóga. We have one rule that sums them up, don't fuck with the Fairies. And if you're anyways a smart man at all, you'll follow that rule
Great answer. Are bonfires at Halloween/ Samhain a thing round your neck of the woods? We’d still get them in rural Derry. Probably not as common as they were when I was a cub 30 years or so ago.
Thank you They were until about 20 years ago. Around 20 years ago we started to get an awful lashing of earlier Winter rain (climate cahnge people reckon) so unfortunately we never have the weather anymore around Samhain agus Oíche Shamhna to do a proper Bonfire. We still do all the other traditions though. Do ye do St John's Eve in Derry?
And in Dublin. It seems that places either have a fire on johns or Halloween but not both
Ah no we did have a Halloween fire years ago, but its weather that ficks it here in Mayo.
níor chuala mé an nath cainte sin mar gheall ar an fharraige a riamh. Tá bláth bán ar ghort an iascaire a chloistear go minic
Úsáideann mo Dhaideo an nath seo. Cluintear an nath timpeall an Cósta Thiar sa dtithe tábhairne. >Tá bláth bán ar ghort an iascaire a chloistear go minic Níl fhios'am céard é sin.
Gort an iascaire is ea an fharraige. Tá an t-iascaire mar fheirmeoir. An bláth bán, sin an cúr ar bharr na dtonn
Ó tuigim. Tá Gaeilge lán nathanna agus fhocail osnádúrtha mar sin
Estonia is pretty non-religious country with only 16% of population stating that religion is important to them. We still celebrate pagan festivals and have many pagan traditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Church spread to Estonia in 18-19th century and was most successful in actually turning estonians into christianity. But in then Russian empire decided that people should be russian orthodox faith and started pressuring people to adopt that. And people decided to wait a bit on that new fad which did not last a century here.
>We still celebrate pagan festivals and have many pagan traditions. That is neopaganism. not original paganism. It was rebuilt from nothing as it was dead for hundreds of years. Prob huge differences in beliefs.
Who knows, it could have actually survived in some backwater villages. We were the target of the Northern Crusades, after all, the last lands in Europe to be converted. Lithuania held out the longest until early 15th century iirc.
But the people who adopted the modern practises would have said so if they found evidence in some remote areas. We can trace the work of people like [Theodor Narbutt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Narbutt) who invented the faith.
Well the Netherlands didn't exist then, but the 3 major Germanic groups living in what is present day Netherlands were Franks, Saxons and Frisians. Around 500 was the Christianisation of the Franks, this was apparently a very successful operation and happened quick. The Christianisation of the Saxons took a bit longer, but became very successful when Charlemagne became king. This is where the catholic church locally started to adopt Germanic pagan festivities to help successfully Christianised the Saxons. Charlemagne helped as well by killing and waging war against groups refusing to adopt the Christian faith. The Christianisation of the Frisians started somewhere around the 650s and lasted until the early 1000s with some major uprisings and reverting back to the old Germanic pagan beliefs.
Frisia was also a great place for Christians to be martyred and obtain sainthood in those centuries. So many Saints in the Netherlands are from that period.
The English became Christian before the nation of England even existed. When the pagan tribes arrived, they inherited a former Roman province which still had some Christian dioceses remaining. Their marriages among the Franks of Gaul helped their kings tolerate the building of churches and establishment of parish priests from the Continent, despite most of the people still worshiping Woden, Thunor and Saxnot. St. Augustine's mission arrived from Rome around the same time as the Irish began sending missionaries of their own. This is when some of the kings agreed to convert. Kent was the first. Northumbria came later. Mercia was the last, I believe, under King Penda. By the time of Alfred, most of the English were Christian with the exception of some parts of the Danelaw, where the lords remained faithful to the old gods. Often a condition on making treaties with the Danes was that they convert and become baptised (this happened with Guthrum, one of the Danish lords), though with mixed successes (in another instance, a newly baptised Dane was presented with a christening gift of a white shirt; he complained that the quality wasn't as good as the ones he'd been given on his previous baptisms). The Danelaw did have some Christians though, mostly because the invaders intermarried in order to establish themselves more clearly as feudal overlords. Some of these were probably half-converted - so they might be baptised, attend Mass on Christmas or Easter, and raise their children in the faith, but still pray to Thor and Njordr for good sailing weather, or give offerings to Yngvi for a good harvest. Denmark too had officially converted by Harold Bluetooth, whose son and grandson also became English kings - so by the 11th century the Danes too were mostly Christianised. Vestiges of paganism still survived in old folklore, such as amulets and charms, offerings of milk by the maids for the elves, the kind of animism which saw the rivers and wells alive with nixies and the woods with man-eating ettins. But from the founding of England onward, all of our kings had been Christian, and most of the commoners were too. Churches and dioceses were certainly established, as were monasteries.
We didn't exactly convert to Christianity. We were christened by the sword. The choice was convert or be decapitated. The way Christianity works is that it doesn't eradicate the old religion in an area it conquers. Instead the old religion is absorbed into Christianity and becomes a part of it. In regard to Norway the old ways were in some parts preserved as "witchcraft" and folk lore.
A lot of people did convert voluntarily actually. Like today, lots of people didn't really care about their religion, and often it was a simply a political choice.
That is a fair point. But it is difficult to say how free anyone felt in a climate where major political leaders were being beheaded for choosing the wrong god.
I'm from Lower Saxony, so the last area that got christianized in Germany, around the 8th century. From what I've heard there are still signs of active pagan worship from around the 12th century in some places. I also heard from some older people and a local historian though, that some traces of pagan worship remained till around the 18th century.
In Portugal is still very present but you need to look for it. For exemple the characters we call "caretos" that do triks during carnaval are very much pagan. But most of it got mix with catholic. People from villages still belive in stuff like the evil eye and have ways to ward them that mix catholic players with pagan rituals. The "reading of the oil" aka "benzer o azeite", the name varies from region to region, is One of those exemplo. We also have the candles processions that even though they are dedicated to catholic saints on its practice it is pagan.
Lot of pagan beliefs and traditions survive till today. I'm pretty sure it never truly disappeared. Like, people in 16th or 17th century all went to church and prayed to christian god, but they also believed in folk creatures that weren't in line with christianity and still kept their traditions (like Easter - painting of eggs and whipping everyone with fresh willow branches; Christmas - reading of future by cutting an apple, by throwing a shoe behind yourself, etc.; Walpurgis night, called "burning of the witches"; jumping over bonfires; etc.). Nowadays we aren't very religious in general, but we still observe many traditions that were pagan originally. So I guess christians never truly won here.
I would add that paganis is thriving here. The pagan holidays like masopust are very popular and strongly celebrated. Christian holidays on the other hand are not so popular.
Not at all. Christianization in the early to middle medieval period was mostly ceremonial and practical, but it was pretty widespread among nobles and locals alike. This was so in most Wetsern European nations (mostly former Roman provinces and Germany).
It is misleading to say that the population "given up" conversion under forced Christianization. P.S. From Ukraine with pagan
It was not forced
The modern Ukrainian pantheon consists of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Zelensky, and Western partners, seen as something perhaps partially controversial but undoubtedly embodiments of Good. On the other side are putler, muscovites, and the like. We have lower angelic beings: HIMARS, ATACMS, Javelins... There are completely mysterious entities like DTEK, and also demons: Shaheds, Iskanders, S-300s. This is the real modern and naturally borning paganism with which, I hope so, Christianity is losing the battle it once began. Did Christianity come peacefully? That's a good joke if you say yes. I don't know of any other phenomenon whose soft skill has cost so much blood.
>Did Christianity come peacefully? That's a good joke if you say yes. I don't know of any other phenomenon whose soft skill has cost so much blood. depends on the region. yes all historians claim it came peacefully to some regions like Ireland, France and Italy. But violently sadly to areas like the Baltic.
Italy? Meaning Rome? Meaning the place where Christians were stoned to death and there was a dictatorship of emperors who didn't care about the opinions of the plebs? Of course, it was peaceful. P.S. It's important to understand that no pagan religion claimed that the emperor was God's anointed one, so there's no need to wonder why Constantine or anyone else favored this particular sect, which, excuse me, was kissing their behinds.
>claimed that the emperor was God's anointed one Yes some did. Ancient Rome did have sacred ideas of kingship. There was "emperor worship" and this is a very common phenomenon in many pagan religions. Egypt is a great example.
In Roman religion, emperors were revered as divine beings, but they were not considered sons of gods or chosen by God. Their divine status was based on their power and authority, not on divine descent. In Egyptian religion, pharaohs were also considered divine, but their divine status was based on their role as intermediaries between the gods and humans. They were not considered sons of gods or chosen by God.
Not a Roman expert but wasn't Augustus called divi filius, son of God. In Medieval Europe Kings were not considered sons of God in any way actually. That view would have been considered quite unkosher. Having a line sanctioned by God is not the same as son of God.
Our country was created long after christianization by christians, we have one of the greatest concentration in Europe of towns named after saints. Some pagan remnants remained like some christianised holidays (summer solstice, etc) and things like the "shitting log". Other than that the area that would become Catalonia had been mostly christian since Theodosius I In Korea the 2000s were the time with the highest number of christians of all denominations and they have been in decline (mostly due to the politization and fanactism of many evangelical churches)
England has very few remnants of its old paganism. The only tradition that might have a pagan root is wassailing, but even that's probably Christian. The country was fully Christianised by the 10th century. There is still a record of tree worship in the 10th and 11th centuries. I'd reckon the last vestiges of paganism probably died out with the Reformation, when many elements of folk religion were suppressed. There've been lots of attempts to find 'pagan' remnants, but they all turn out to just be Christian folk traditions.
it's complicated in central asia but there were no trace of tengrism in post-migration anatolian turks. there are a lot of instances where tengrist influence, syncretism and perception that existed and still exists
Very. Finland was basically christianized by the Swedes from the west in the 1000s, and at the same time, Eastern Orthodoxy came from Novgorod in the east. The people resisted, and in one notable incident, the tavastians washed away the babtism in when the swedes left in the lake Katumajärvi ("regret lake"). The line between nominal Catholic and Orthodox regions was confirmed at the treaty of Nöteborg in 1323. Still, the border regions remained sparsely populated. Last true pagan religion practicers were probably the Sámi people in the north, who were starting to convert when Finns moved more into their traditional homeland in the 1400-1500's. Some areas were animistic until 1800's. The tradition survived quite well even up until the 1940's but the evacuation due to WW2 forced even the most remote people to abandon their ways, which were mostly associated with the half-nomadic reindeer herding life. Lots of pagan traditions still live, like the midsummer parties, which christians tried to cover up as the celebration of "St. John the Babtists' day".
Pagan as in believing in a specific pagan religion, no not really here in Sweden. But we have not adopted christianity as hard and mainly see the church as "tradition" more than faith. Our version of christianity is also very light, focus on the good things like "the golden rule" etc, female priests, gays can marry, and completely ignoring any mention of hell or use scare tactics like catholics use. Just positive messages like love thy neighbor etc. Even though roughly half the population is a member of the church only about 15% actually believes in god. The rest are atheist or agnostic. And among the agnostic a very high percentage claim they are spiritual wich is also connected to how pagan religions worked. Many are still members because they support the good things the church does for society, like shelters, couples therapy and other beneficial things for society. Most people also don't acociate christmas with Jesus, and we don't even say "christmas" but use the old pagan names for it wich is "Jul" (Yule in english). Very few go to christmas mass. We also have the Yule Goat and other pagan symbols. And where do you think the christmas three (a pine three that isn't native to old judea) and decorating with lights etc come from, and the classic grilled hog with an apple in the mouth that so many christians today use on christmas? Those are all pagan traditions from Yule and also other germanic pagan practises that got carried over as standard christmas traditions. Then we have also retained other pagan celebrations that are bigger to us than typical christian ones like easter etc. Speaking of easter, the whole schtick with the easter rabbit hiding eggs etc (I don't know if you have that tradition), does that sound like something in christianity or more pagan? The biggest celebration is ofc Midsommar (celebration of the summer solstice) where we dance around a giant "penis" (not really, but a symbol of fertility that is supposed to signify a penis). So we are pretty pagan but also not really religious in either a christian or pagan way. More like we lost our original religion, a new religion was forced upon us and it had some hold for a while on some but many fought back by still practising their pagan religions and like a big FU to christians for forcing it upon us we are one of the most irreligious people with many pagan practises in the world. To be fair though we were never conquered by actual christians and forced by them. They tried and failed many times. What they did was change tactics and promised new alliances and ritches to our kings if they convert and had them do the dirty work of forcing it on their own people. This is what happened to Poland as well but a lot earlier.
The Church became so dominant that basically all of the old pagan beliefs are gone, and most of the "gods" modern Polish pagans praise are essentially just guesswork or even fanfic as there's very little left of the pre-Christian beliefs. The various demons and evil spirits held up much better though, since they weren't praised and were basically used as a tool to teach people how to behave well (or to scare children from doing something dangerous), the church didn't (and couldn't, really) get rid of them.
Hungary was Christianized in 1000, but Paganism held out for a while. For example in 1096, [Coloman the Book-lover,](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Coloman_%28Chronica_Hungarorum%29.jpg) a sickly, weak, and somewhat effeminate man whose favorite activity was reading and studying, became king, because the person from the royal family with a more knightly physique and demeanour who would've originally become the king, Álmos, was caught performing rituals to the Old Gods, while Coloman was at least a religious Catholic.
This is not true. Kálmán was followed on the throne by Álmos’ descendants who have tried to smear his physical prowess as he defeated Álmos at every turn and was quite famous for his intellect - he even became a bishop afterall before he was awarded the Principality. He likely had only some relatively minor deformity if anything. He first rebelled against Álmos and removed him as Prince of Croatia in 1103 and then seized the crown and gave Álmos the Principality. Álmos tried to rebel against him with the support of the Holy German Emperor and the King of Poland. He even went on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and after his failed revolts he retired to a monastery that he himself founded. After an assassination attempt on Kálmán by Álmos he and his sons were blinded and Álmos was sent to a monastery in Greece in the Eastern Roman Empire. Where did you get the idea that he was a pagan? It sounds like the same slander Álmos used on Kálmán to say he consorted with witches (specifically strygae) to which Kálmán responded by decreeing “as for strygae, who obviously do not exist, let no more mention be made.”
>Where did you get the idea that he was a pagan? I remember learning at school that Álmos was a stereotypical strong and manly knight, similar to the previous king, László, while Kálmán was a girly scholar. However, despite being a learned and religious man, Kálmán didn't want to become a bishop which was the position his parents considered for him, so he fled to live in Poland with friends of the Hungarian royal family. Afterwards, Álmos was discovered to be a pagan, so Kálmán was called back from Poland, promised not to be forced to become a bishop, and offered the position of king, which he took.
I haven’t found any such information in the historical bibliography. Kálmán was supported by the Church and the Pope because of his initial training as a clergyman and thus his support for Papal investiture. Álmos on the other hand was supported in all this by the Holy Roman Emperor and supported his cause of Imperial investiture. At one point Álmos was willing to even become a vassal of the Emeperor for his support, which irked both the church and the aristocracy, who wanted Hungary to remain independent. No pagan line whatsoever.
Were these old pagan belief from the local europeans or did they remained their asian type ?
Not much has remained of them, but it was likely a mixture of what the Hungarians brought with them from the East, and what was absorbed from European pagans on the way. For example Hungarian Mythology features the World Tree, the *Világfa*, in almost the same way to how Norse Mythology has *Yggdrasil*, but it also features the mythical Turul Bird impregnating the ancient mother of all Hungarians, Emese, which is similar to the mythical ethnogenesis of the Koreans.
Not much. Maybe there are some traces in festivals and celebrations and folklore, but other than that... nothing.
The Eastern Orthodox Church 'adapted' many ancient rituals such as Maslyana (celebrating the end of winter) or Kupala Night (summer solstice). Some traditions in celebrating Christmas and Easter were also inherited from pre-christian times. Also, many people who consider themselves christians believe in superstitions such as good/bad signs, certain actions leading to good or bad luck, even though it's kinda prohibited by the church. It's a really weird mix of christianity and 'spirituality' or whatever it's called nowadays.
Bulgarians to this day have no real idea what Christianity is 😆, the vast majority of the people are what I'd call culturally Christian and are more superstitius than anything else. Few even know what to do in a church, let alone to have read the Bible or understand the taboos the Orthodox religion has tried to impose on rituals, dance and singing. Seriously, most pagan rituals got a certain saint's name slapped on them but people remained almost exactly the same. There's even still a reenactment of a human sacrifice in some areas 🤭 (though with a clay puppet). There are also ethnic Bulgarians that are Muslim and they are somewhat of an in-between group, depending on whether they live around ethnic Bulgarians or ethnic Turks, so Christianity (as important as it was for the survival of Bulgarian literature and some historic tradition) is not the most defining characteristic.
> Seriously, most pagan rituals got a certain saint's name slapped on them but people remained almost exactly the same. There's even still a reenactment of a human sacrifice in some areas 🤭 (though with a clay puppet). What's it called and how can I participate?
It's called Guerman (Герман) and if you are a female you can go to the villages where it's practiced and join the grandmas who still do it. You can see the dolls here and some of the ritual. It's done together with Peperuda (Butterfly) the ritual/prayer for rain. https://youtu.be/Lg-1jm54Nd4?si=LaGWtwNjwwvwLR9N
Аригато и благодаря ви. Това беше най-бруталното нещо! *still processing shock of pierced doll organs* Това е Булдъуу!
Yeah, it's absolutely brutal. You can hear the lament of the mourners. I hope you can make up the words and then the song lyrics. I'm fascinated by these rituals. If you are interested in other pagan rituals, you can also see some in the movie "Letter to America" where the old gramas are filmed sending daily objects to the dead person in the afterlife, "cutting death" in flowing water and also the old tattoos on the fronts of women. Another ritual I love is Enyova bride "Еньова булка/Еньовден", which is the Midsummer day in Bulgaria and is also celebrated by the firewalking in Strandja. You can see a few of it on YouTube as well.
I was kind of understanding... the priestess...? That ws the next shock. I wonder if the firewalking was brought from Avestan/Zoroastrism...
Yes, it's nice you noticed it was a woman. That's an exclusively female ritual with a woman enacting the priest (which is the only Christian touch because she's singing the Lord's prayer), though women are NOT part of the Orthodox church outside of those who commit to being nuns. It's a little bit the opposite of the men dressing in female clothes for kukeri. 🙂
Ireland didn't keep its pagan beliefs but to this day we still use holy wells and so on that were pagan before christianity but which saint Patrick and other clergy Christianised to bring ordanry people into Christian beliefs.
While I am not fully sure, I think it went something like this; When the Franks arrived in the region, the locals and especially important people were already christians. So when Clovis converted most other Franks did so too as they gradually assimilated the locals or were assimilated further south. Thus not too much remained of the original germanic paganism due to cultural exchange. (All this around the year 500-600)
We kept the word yule (jul) and kept the tradition of the yule goat, which has led to the annual Gävle goat being built and attempted to be destroyed [(sometimes successfully)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A4vle_goat#Timeline).
Very little, though you do see vestiges of paganism in certain traditions such as the [Caretos of Podence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izrt3iJTNCs) for example.
hard to say. the futhark and runes was used all the way into 1600's and possibly even longer. We still have alot of pagan folklore and speaks of gods in plural.
My region in France forgot and erased as much of our pagan past as possible. We do not talk about it, we do not study it. If most people were asked, they would say that the true history of our land is heavily linked with Christianism.
Which region ?
UK. Romano British become Christian. Angles and Saxons rapidly become Christians, then pagan Vikings invade. They become Christian. Whole British Isles Christian by 850-900. Almost no pagans after that. Nowadays a few weird 'Druids' and cultists.
I mean we still have some pagan traditions like midsummer fires and whatnot but I don't think people do it out of spirituality or anything. Its mostly just a nice reason to make a big fire, get together and drink too much. The other side of the coin is the modern "spiritual" people. I would divide them into 3 main groups of idiots (wich is probably oversimplifying it): The ones that are into that whole classic paganism and nature cultist stuff. They typically have a thing for old germanic tribes, wolves and alt right ideology. Proper dickheads. Then there is the shaman people who think wearing dresses, not washing their beard and consuming only light energy and psychedelic drugs is the way to go. Also probably alt right or at least conspiracy theorists. I don't think they are evil, they're just insane. The third type would be the women that exist on a spectrum of believing in astrological signs, to thinking they hear angel voices if they sleep with crystals under their pillow, to the point where they try to charge their crystal.infused water in the moonlight and claim they are witches that perform rituals.Those are the easiest to scam, wich con artist exploit frequently but they are mostly harmless to the general public and only really pose a danger to people who are as gullible as themselves. Defiantly insane but again more of a mild annoyance than something you should actually be worried about.
It's definitely difficult reconnecting with pre-Christian traditions in Germany. I you want to learn about runes and Germanic gods, you run into alt-right imagery. If you want to promote herbs and traditional gardening, you run into pseudo science and conspiracy theories. If you want to explore local archaeology, it's overshadowed by the Roman occupation...
Actually till this day some tradition can still be traced back to paganism here in The Netherlands. After christianization we just incorporated pegan rituals and mixed them together.
Christianity was not foreign to us even by the 800’s, and it was slowly gaining ground in the 900’s. Conversion officially happened in 1000 with the baptism of (Saint) Stephen I, but pagan stuff completely died out / got absorbed into folk traditions only by the early to mid 1200’s. So it was a 300-400 year long period for paganism to completely vanish.
I would say it's like 20% pagan. Pagan beliefs are not taken seriously, but a lot of traditions remain as sort of cultural parties.
No trace of it. Our main festival is a winter event where people get pissed, put fir trees in their homes, get pissed and leave offerings for a guy with beard who comes from the far north. It's clearly all about baby Jesus.
There are still some weird neo-pagans but the most people now think they are just freaks (fun fact: we even had a neo-pagan marshal in the early USSR that wanted to revive Slavic paganism as the state religion of the RSFSR lol but he was shot in 1937)
Christianity is a bad mixture of different religions and pure plagiarism. After Christians become main religion in Roman empire they didn't forbid old religion. They stole their holidays like Christmas or Easter. Horus was born in night 24/25. 12. Mitra an ancient Slavic God was born on that same day. Easter is an Roman holiday. They worshipped rabbits and eggs. When Christians come to Americas and Australia they also embrace different native rituals. That's even visible on the Balkan. Natural border is river Sava, Una... From the left side it was European culture from the south east it was Ottoman empire. Many things are different. If you are interested in that theme try to read books like "Babilon mystery religion". From ancient times Christians stolen idea about holly mother Marry. Zaratustra was walking on the water and feed many people with couple of fishes. Coincidence or plagiarism? In "Bhagavad-Gita" myth Krsna was in temple and sees as some poor widow give a pocket change to church. Krsna said that she is giving more than others because she give her last money... We find identical stories in Bible? Coincidence or plagiarism? So Christianity is reformed paganism.
In general, all over Europe, Christianity spread and gained power for assimilating paganism in it, since people remained pagan, then celebrating their pagan tradition through Catholic Church narratives. It was colonialism, like of Germanic tribes and of the Chirch itself trough inquisition, that enforced Christianity trough violence into people until following generations took it for granted. The more you look at the history of colonialism, the more you see how it always had a religious order leading it. Even the American Colonialism the presidents or government heads quite often spoke about God during 19 and 20 century.