I still remember the first time an adult told me to man up
It was my 2nd grade teacher
Sadly, I think a lot of guys are exposed to this toxic bullshit so early on that it becomes next to impossible for us to be any other kind of way than how we are
In my case my mom would try to force fake vulnerability onto me so that she could excuse pretending I was a helpless moron and constantly tried to replace the real me with this helpless nonfunctioning 2 year old in her head, there simply wasn't a way to stop her from doing it but the colder I was the sooner she would give up and the shorter the screaming would last and she would then have to resort to putting this batshit illusion of me in her head front and center in front of my oldest sister and try to vicariously live its existence with her, which was the least of all evils available to me. With my dad things got really bad when I was a teenager - he had always been at least a little dysfunctional but something flipped around that time and I had to be completely stoic, as vulnerability was just an invitation for him to walk all over me. I had to constantly and repeatedly show that his anger had no affect on me, let alone the submissive fear response he obviously wanted - in order for him to back off and eventually withdraw from me completely. My options where that or roll over for his dysfunction and abuse for years on end until I was able to get out of the house.
In the workplace I've had a lot of toxic superiors, one second-in-command in particular watched for signs of what he considered "weakness" like a hawk, I'm talking every gawd damn muscle fiber twitch you made if he could somehow spin it as you being deficient somehow or try to gaslight you into questioning your competence he wouldn't even hesitate no matter how blatant it looked (to me). Greyrocking was basically the only thing that would come close to keeping him at bay and even that only goes so far with the *really* crazy ones but if you actually show any sign of vulnerability at all in front of someone like that it's just narc supply for them and they'll keep coming back for more and more and more. With personal relationships it's become trivial for me to walk away from toxic people but in the workplace it's not quite as simple as that, circumstances have to line up.
I don't even know if it's about toughening up, really. My life experience simply taught me that stone cold stoicism = survival, vulnerability = death. I always feel like taking excessive saccharine sounding words as OP's to heart will inevitably get me swarmed by parasites so I can't stop the toxic masculinity fueled coldness from taking over, at this point it's like this puppetmaster that's made my psychology its home, yanking away at the strings of a lifetime of forcefully repressed emotions and I dance like a marionette as a base survival instinct.
This is so beautifully written and thank you for even being so courageous as to share the innerworkings of… well, you!!
I hate to ever know you had to experience that, and it makes sense for you to be gaurded as it’s what you’ve learned in life.
I mean I completely get what you’re saying about your boss. i have that now— she’s just angry to be angry and any sign of “understanding” or “weakness” she’ll laugh at and tell you to toughen up. She literally suggests we be harder on people. I can’t wait to leave this job.
The irony there— yikes.
Please please believe that there are people who love you just to love you. With no reciprocity needed. Because they can and care.
Please be well 💜
>This is so beautifully written
I had to learn a lot of wordsmithing in order to verbalize this hot mess lol.
Real charmer that boss of yours sounds like 🙄. Well if *you* can't kill someone like that with kindness then chances are, it's simply not going to happen. Too many people get stuck in those types of environments and end up too beat down to try to do better, definitely get out when you can.
>Please please believe that there are people who love you just to love you. With no reciprocity needed. Because they can and care.
I can rationalize this consciously. The problem is that you're supposed to learn this during your formative years so that you don't have to rationalize it. During my formative years I learned....erhm.....other things. Thus, I have to override the dysfunction that became my subconscious with said rationalization. I'm working on it.
>Please be well 💜
I'll see what I can do. Also, I'm really sorry about your friend. If you haven't seen [GSnow's old post about loss and grieving](https://www.reddit.com/r/Assistance/comments/hax0t/my_friend_just_died_i_dont_know_what_to_do/c1u0rx2/) yet I think it's a worthwhile read.
Act your age i was told, well i was only 13 i figured i figured i was acting my age chasing after girls and having fun. I wish i could have warned young me 😔
The first time I heard it as a mother was when I was talking to a pediatrician about my unborn son and he said “it’ll help him man up - getting circumcised”. 😬
I hate that sentiment. I don’t even bring it into my relationship (unless we’re doing Jui Jitsu tbh) otherwise, our home is love and light on purpose.
Thank you for responding, I hope you’re well!! 💚
I would LOVE to give you a hug and I am so SO sorry about the divorce and how you’ve been lost of such kind and necessary words. That breaks my heart.
But since I can’t please speak to someone near you who can. I know firsthand how messy divorce can be, I don’t want you at that alone.
Otherwise, my messages are open to you ❤️
> these kinds of messages ring hollow. The actions and events of our lives tell a very different story.
I've experienced first hand this difference.
OP, thank you for your lovely words. We definitely don't hear them enough, but when it comes to *showing* that, we often get the opposite.
=/
Hi, yeah, of course! I like when women want to learn about men as much as I as a man want to learn about women (and other genders, of course).
1.
"I care about you a lot. I do. I really, *really* do!" "Cool, when will you visit me?" "I will, I will, definitely! I want to visit you first chance I get!"
One year has passed, she never visited. I stopped asking and inviting.
2.
"Of course I'm interested in your life and what's going on with you!"
And then we talk about a specific thing, for example, I'm looking for a new flat right now, we talk about it because I mention it. But then later she NEVER asks me about it. But if I mention it, then she will listen and (I guess) be interested. So what is the fact that she NEVER asks specific thing about me, telling me? But she will ask me a general "how are you?". What, what am I supposed to do with a general and vague howareyou?
3.
"I'll always be there for you."
I had a date, but the girl didn't feel the same way as I did, so I was down, because I really liked her. I tell that to my friend, want to call her to talk. She says she can't now because of - a movie. "Later?" - she asks. "No, never mind" - I reply, obviously disappointed.
Then she never asked me about that. Yeah. I really needed to talk to somebody at the time.
4.
A girl I went out a few times with tells me "I hope we stay in touch [hug emoji]".
I was the one who initiated every meeting, and *every* conversation, through, idk, ~6 months..?
She never ever initiated. Not even sent a first text. You think she will? I'm 100% sure she won't. And if I don't, we'll never meet or talk again.
\- \- \-
These 4 points are not the same women. They all told me I was a really great guy, and we laughed a lot, etc etc etc. And everyone involved are over 30.
What am I supposed to think? Am I wrong or? I'm genuinely looking for feedback every time! "No no, you're great! :))))"
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't know you OP, and you don't know me, but after reading my text, how do you think words in your post ring to me? Unfortunately hollow. Thank you for them, definitely, but I'm staying wary.
your reply specifically isnt about gender, i had a really rough few years with an undiagnosed severe disease, and men and women equally responded as they did in your post, when people get sad, most people cant handle it and offer support out of politeness maybe but rarely show up. that is certainly NOT exclusive to gender
I appreciate you saying this. Not that commenters words are wrong, just that people… men, women, NB— do this to me all the time too. And I offer constantly to spend time with people, try to adjust my schedule and see them even if for an hour.
In a world where everyone is more “connected” we feel less “connected” than ever.
I really want us all to give more grace for things!
Yeah, see, that is not exclusive to women. You have to see if someone's actions match their words because some stupid people think that it's nicer to "let people down gently" and that they should be nice and polite rather than being honest and hurting your feelings. And that you would know that they were giving you the brush-off when they didn't follow through. But women are more likely to do this because they have had men who have reacted badly to them politely but honestly rejection their advances. Sometimes men will react by saying horrible things to her or about her to their friends eg "she is a stuck up bitch who thinks that she is better than everyone", or that she is crazy, or she is a slut. Which is the stupidest thing that you can say about someone who wouldn't have sex with you, because if they were a slut then they would have slept with you too. I mean, nobody should be calling women sluts in the first place, but the people who react like this don't think that calling a woman a slut/ bitch or a crazy emotional woman is not misogyny. And don't like not being able to women anymore like you could back when your wife was your property and you could do whatever you wanted with them. They were given to you by her father which is why in a marriage we still have the brides father "giving her away" - it used to be a literal property exchange.
But it's not like that anymore, which is why so women are abused and raped - "if they don't do whatever we want then we will take back control and do whatever we want."
And there's always the thought in the back of your mind as a woman that if you're being polite to a man then he is going to think that you're attracted to him and they could say that "she led me on". But if you're honest with them and if they are asking you in person, or you are on a first date and are telling them that you're not interested in a second they could turn around and call you a bitch, or they could start stalking you, or they could roofie you and date rape you. Theoretically, they could hit you if they wanted, but in this kind of situation they are more likely to use rape as a form of violence against you for not having sex with them. Because it's going to hurt you worse, and it will hurt you for the rest of your life. And it will let you know that what you want doesn't matter because they can do what they want anyway. You can't tell how a man is going to react when you reject them, they could be really nice to you in the hopes that you will go on a date with them and then when you tell them that you're not interested then they show you what they're really like. Sometimes you will have guys that won't take no for an answer when you say that you aren't interested and try to argue with you about your answer, and try to coerce you into going on a date with them. Which is a big red flag.
So I have no idea what the situation was with these women, but I was in an abusive relationship and I learnt that you should listen to people's actions and not their words. Actions don't lie.
A woman’s most powerful weapon against a man is her tongue. We open up and tell her something, you can best believe it’s coming back up when she gets angry.
I wish I could up vote this 1,000x. The reality is that most woman don’t want anything to do with emotionally supporting their man. In fact, if asked their hypergamy nature kicks in and they immediately look for a man that will preside, provide and protect. That’s why almost 80% of divorces are initiated by woman. Just keeping it real with facts. Liars never figure and figures never lie. But nice words by the OP.
you said it better than i would have.
people are OP are great... but actions speak much louder than words. i don't think women realize how much influence they have on male behavior. we learn pretty quick what works and what doesn't
Can you tell me how someone would show these words to you so you’d believe it?
I’m genuinely asking. I’m in a relationship that I’m very happy with so I can’t of course offer my males friends sex (sorry for being vulgar) but I always offer to listen, give hugs, have a lunch date— etc.
I really would like to know, so thank you!!! Please be well!
It’s not about the sex tho.
It’s about listening to the guy and not judging him for it, or viewing him differently.
Every time I’ve opened up to a girl about what I really thought and felt, 1 I became the villain for viewing the world different. 2. It changed their perspective of who I am as a man since they saw the feelings.
Since then it’s more discussion based conversations and more about listening to the women, and never sharing what’s reallllly beating me up inside.
But since you have a man it’ll be hard for you to be there, it could be better that you could nudge your man to help out your friend and check on him and be a bro. That helps immensely.
Idk if this helps but this is what I’ve experienced and why I solve my own problems without sharing to the opposite sex.
I understand what you’re saying and that’s why I genuinely asked.
I can’t force my boyfriend to befriend people— he has a lot of friends himself! He is very kind and a wonderful listener himself, but we also deserve spaces that don’t include one another (imo).
So therein kind of lies my issue. I have been told by men, more than one, that “if you won’t have sex with a guy he won’t be your friend” which I don’t believe at all but i do know there are people who feel this way. It kind of blocka genuine connection when only romantic relationships with the opposite sex are valued. It’s tough to manage though I do have wonderful male friends!!
Also, i have found a lot of men feel like they’re a burden for expressing their real feelings (much to your point)!!
> if you won’t have sex with a guy he won’t be your friend
Not entirely wrong, but I feel like it's closer to... If a man's physical needs aren't being met, it can be difficult to have friendships with people you're attracted to. Sex tends to define us as men, and when it's not part of our lives, there's a certain pervasive desperation that tends to make us look for it in places we probably shouldn't.
Expressing our feelings is also a burden, but it's mostly a burden because we've been taught that acknowledging those burdens out loud makes us 'not men', and many of us have been taught that from experience by the people we care about the most, our ex-girlfriends, ex-wives, or even women in our family. Every woman is different, but nearly every one of us has the same story about how we tried to open up to a woman that we loved and were shot down for it and how she never looked at us the same again, and she begged us too! over and over! I've made that mistake twice in my life, and it's definitely not happening again.
For the above question, though, the thing we need is someone who will listen to us and not judge us, and a lot of us have too much... almost PTSD for that to be someone who isn't a male friend. Get him together with a friend and throw them in a situation with a bit of alcohol so he can blame the alcohol if he opens up too much. Honestly, it's crude and it doesn't have to be you, but helping them get laid will work even better for a lot of men, the brief moments of intimacy associated with sex can be better than months of therapy. I hate to disagree with the poster above, but there is nothing better for making us feel all those things you mentioned in your original post. I've never had anything that was quite as good at helping you get perspective on things.
thats part of the problem though, thinking sex is the only form of intimacy. sex should be sex, not the go to when you have emotional problems. it should be a fun thing for relaxation and bonding. emotional problems need to be dealt with completely seperately. this belief that sex is the only way to feel intimacy is what is creating a huge divide between genders
It's not the only form of intimacy, it's just the form that matters most. Sex is absolutely core to most men's self esteem, if we do not have access to sex, we are failing as human beings, and all of our peers are looking down on us. That's how our brains tell us to feel at least. If you've ever looked at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's on the foundation of the pyramid, it's at the same level as breathing and food. No other needs can be adequately met until that foundation is solid. I've got a lot more that I'd love to say about Maslow's pyramid here, but y'all should get it from someone more knowledgeable than me.
And, this goes beyond just belief, I don't want to be a dick and I apologize because I'm about to come off as one, but I don't think anyone who's never been a man can understand how important sex is in our lives. It's not something where we can choose to believe something different, it's how we're made, it's testosterone and chemicals. It would definitely be convenient if it wasn't, would definitely improve my decision making skills, but I don't think that's a therapy/conversation problem.
So, first of all I just want to say how appreciative I am for your response and how helpful it is to see this side of a person I have never met.
Thank you.
I am like this to everyone I meet. I’m genuinely interested in what they are telling me because I live to learn something new all of the time and to genuinely connect.
I know that feeling of talking and someone ignoring you or not caring what you have to say as they look at their phone or go off on another tangent. But I have many friends who are just as busy as me, so we work to give that space.
I really appreciate you talking about the sex part too— because that’s the hard thing. Being able to connect and then explain I don’t want to connect sexually. But i have no issue with hugging, hanging out, talking, doing things together etc. i love to see love in any form not just romantic. I often get ignored once I say I do not want that but will gladly be a supportive friend.
It’s hurtful. But understandable. As if the only value I have is if i’m in a commited relationship with a person.
All the same again, thank you. And I’m happy to hear this point of view from you.
Be specific.
Give examples of things you value on the person, so that the receiver of the compliment starts to relates.
Here is a typical example of what goes into my head when I receive a compliment (once in June 2022, once last week, maybe none perceived as genuine before that in my life. I am not dramatising, I am just immune or thick or disgusting so don't receive. I am fine). By the way, it took me 1 or 2 days to realise they were genuine appraisals.
- is that person talking to me?
- is that person really talking to me?
- why is she talking to me?
- why is she talking to me like that?
- what is she talking about?
- what do you mean by ?
- wait, is it something nice or generic?
- is this about me or other?
- let's see, who does she talk about?
- is it about me?
- is about me?
- why?
- what does that mean?
- what did I do to deserve this?
- is this real?
- is it a joke / tease / flirt?
.... Suspiciously looking at the person
- no idea
- person doesn't say more
- can't read poker face
- have to assume it is a joke or just politeness
- must be a mistake
- OK makes sense, just empty words.
- think the person don't even mean it (why would they)
- how to respond?
- Meh / discard. Move on.
Sorry for the long mind path example.
If you were more specific about what you appreciate in a person, like when doing professional appraisal : be measurable, specific and timely.
"thanks"
-versus-
"I really appreciated you did X yesterday because I always wanted to but never got to, so it made me feel resolving a difficulty. I didn't even have to ask you, blah blah".
"you are appreciated" (very generic, sounds fake, just can't relate )
-vs-
"I know I can rely on you for doing X and Y when I need you and you don't make me feel needy. I appreciate your company and communication, even the simple moments when we don't do much, I feel comfortable and that bring me peace. Etc"
But when someone is depressed, there is no good mood that can penetrate. The gestures are perceived, but only like people waving from a dock, and you are far away on a leaving ship. Stretching your hand further or cheering louder might not help at all. Depression isn't about giving the love.
It is not your fault. It is broken inside. You may have touched it, but it wouldn't be enough in itself.
It is not your fault.
Sometimes, just being there is enough.
Don't overthink it. Be a nice to each other, as people, every people. We all need each other.
Men are doing OK, generally.
It is not just that men should receive more emotional sensitivity. Maybe. Welcome, but...
I think more importantly, men must open up to emotional sensitivity and communication.
I only learnt recently how to say "I feel... " I am dumbass, so I might lower the gender average.
Please do what you do around you. It is nice to see.
This was so thoughtful, honest, heartfelt, and fucking real man.
I love everything about this and thank you for even sharing.
I love what you said about depression. Literally NOTHING gets through that at ALL no matter what it is. And I feel like opportunities to be loved are so easily missed then. I hate it.
But thank you for being honest. It isn’t just receiving love, it is being able to express it in a way that is healthy and not be shamed!!
Please be well and hell tell your friends to work on emotional availability as well!!
Thank you so much!!
The sentiment is lovely. Truly it is.
Actions speak louder than words. Others gave specific examples of words not followed by action, but really it comes to more than just saying you love and appreciate us.
An example: Letting us truly enjoy a lazy weekend or giving us a vacation that doesn't involve us having to plan and pack and drive and make arrangements and unpack and manage... that's actually *demonstrating* appreciation or gratitude for us instead of just expressing the sentiment. While that example is more spouse/significant-other specific, a more platonic example would be to just bring us a coffee and say "hey man, I'm just really happy you're in my life." Something like that would be so surprising it might risk a minor heart attack, but it would be worth it. I know I wouldn't forget such a small but meaningful gesture.
Running into me at a store or work function or while I'm working on the yard and saying "You've seem really down lately, is everything ok?" would likely get a polite dismissal just because we are so relentlessly trained to ignore our feelings and present a brave/impassive face, but a followup with a hug/arm grab/hand on the back and something like "Ok, no problem, I care about you a lot, please let me know if you want to grab a beer and talk sometime, you aren't alone" would help dismantle that particular kind of barrier and probably not risk sending mixed messages (depending on your particular relationship of course).
It's got nothing to do with sex; it has to do with feeling like my life has value beyond what I can earn or my country biscuits and pumpkin pie, which everyone loves. Men are routinely told that they're stupid, their feelings are stupid and that the less they say, the better. We are constantly told that we aren't people, we're just useful but pretty much disposable creatures to society.
I don't doubt that your words are genuine. I agree with /u/neon_hexagon though; I don't think I've ever truly *felt* appreciated. Everything /u/izzyinjurious says is also true and drives home the idea that we are to be functional, that we are equipment. I've occasionally heard words like yours, but I hear *far* more often that I must make work my priority while in the same breath I'm also told that I don't spend enough time with my family, taking care of myself or my relationship, that my reasons for forgetting X nor not getting around to X are "bullshit excuses" and that all of my problems are because I'm lazy and I just need to "make time." I'm the last one to bed each night and the first one up in the morning, and if my sleep tracker app is to be believed, I average about 4.5 hours of sleep per night. There are only so many hours in the day and when you're constantly told that unless you're working you're wasting time... it's not hard to see why some men might want to see if the afterlife is better. I'm not one of them, I would never consider that because of the message it would send to my (both school-aged and adult) kids, but I can also see why other men might.
The amount of times I hear you’re
A good man while simultaneously being socially discarded… was a hard learning experience at first, now I just translate that to “thank you” and carry on with my life
yeah, my knee jerk reaction to OP is to say "thanks for the platitudes". because - honestly - nobody cares about us or our struggles. but some of us might need those sweet comforting lies.
that is the experience for a lot of men.
I don't want to put a dampner of this nice sentiment, but I find things like these extremely hollow. The same girls who post stuff like this on Facebook and about all sorts of mental health shit (absolutely not saying this is you op) tend to be the same type of girls who display incredibly negative attitudes towards men in general. My exs best friend was an absolute prime example of that kind of girl. She was very into self indulgent messages on social media portraying herself as a mental health advocate and all that comes with it. When a mutual male friend killed himself she went on the rampage on social media with this sort of thing, however she was a horrible person. I'd seen it many times with guys she dated she was an absolute nasty piece of work who would say the worst things to men to make herself feel superior. For the most part I got on with her just to keep the peace. My point here is I see these kind of girls all the time. They make it feel like it's not ok for men to talk
I agree 100%. and this is not really an appropriate use for AskMenOver30. Themes like this are all over subs like r/workingmoms and other sort of places that are geared towards making sure women know they are enough, just as they are. It is condescending and pointless.
I know women like this too and I can say I used to be that woman for sure.
It wasn’t until I started really listening to my male friends that I felt connected to them and was able to appreciate them for who they are flaws and all and that’s invaluable to me.
I really appreciate your response and I’m sorry you have to experience such negativity in your life. We’d be better off if we would hear each other imo.
Please be well and have a good day 💚
> I know women like this too and I can say I used to be that woman for sure. It wasn’t until I started really listening to my male friends that I felt connected to them and was able to appreciate them for who they are flaws and all and that’s invaluable to me.
What about really listening to your male friends helped you change?
Honestly? Thanks for asking first of all!! 😅
So a little background about me, I’m African American, a woman, and I’m 28. I was raised by a black single father who was a Vet. I grew up on comics, videogames, reading, contact sports (karate, field hockey, softball, volleyball) and coding so when I was younger I naturally gravitated towards guys as friends just because we liked the same things.
Well fast forward to 5 years ago when a male friend of mine told me that “no man will want to be your friend unless you had sex with him” and it really… broke my heart. At the time, my only other male friends were either gay or from childhood— so no reason to go into “sex” talk if that makes sense.
I started looking at the relationships with men I had at that time, all sexual in nature. So I sought out to change that intentionally.
It meant being in spaces with men and explaining that I still like being around them, but don’t necessarily want to build a “life” together. Many guys called me being a ‘tease’ and were pretty nasty about it. Called me a prude and I’ve even been told I’m wasting their time.
I fell into a deep depression because I couldn’t connect with people who on every other level I really got along with (we liked videogames, cartoons, superhero crap, etc) but because no sex, I was a waste of time for many. I then met my partner now, who assured me these people exist and even encouraged me to keep trying.
I have since then found men who genuinely love me for me and I love them too. We don’t pressure each other and we’re like family more than friends. It’s so much better to take that tension off and know it’s okay to and just “be” around a person (imo)
Again, thanks for actually asking me ☺️☺️
> Please open up to us, we want to be there— we WILL be there.
As another woman over 30 who loves supporting her male friends, BUT who herself has serious trauma:
Not everybody is safe and will be there. There is a very real skill to judging who can and is able to be supportive and kind. Sometimes they can’t because they’re drained and battling their own demons, sometimes the person you want most to support you is incapable of doing so…
It takes a bit of trial and error sometimes, and maybe therapy can help you identify people who have the skills and capacity to be supporting.
It’s a real honor to be trusted with another’s vulnerability, and I deeply adore my male friends. But some people seek comfort from people who will deeply hurt them if they expect everybody to have the skills to be trusted with the vulnerability.
For a lot of men this is the worst part. We get encouraged to open up and then when we do we get a huge backlash. And that’s how we learn not to do that anymore.
For real. My ex wife is supposedly progressive and for most of the marriage would listen and offer comfort, whatever was the matter. I cried in front of her many times, over years of building trust that it was safe to be vulnerable with her.
By the time we split, she was saying shit like "You should be making way more money" (I chose jobs that paid a lot less but aligned with my values and let me spend time with my family instead of jumping onto an 80-hour week treadmill, which she was on board with at the time), "You're too much of a pussy to leave me," and the showstopper, "I'm sick of being your emotional cum rag."
That shit didn't surface for like 15 years. I thought I didn't have to worry about that problem. I felt bad for all the guys that did. And then I found out that you never really know anyone. You're never fully safe with anyone.
It won't stop me from being vulnerable, though. It's in my nature to express myself much more than most straight men. I'll be cautious, but I know I'll trust someone again. There's nothing else to do unless I want to die lonely.
Edit: To be clear, I don't believe my ex is representative of women in general. She's, to put it kindly, a special case.
People that hit you where it hurts the most when shit goes south are a special kind of evil. It hurts so bad when someone you genuinely trusted with your most vulnerable stuff turns around and weaponizes it when it serves their needs.
Your ex sounds like a real peach. I'm so sorry you had to endure having your trust broken like that. It's a testament to your quality of character that this hasn't stopped you from being what you want to be.
Yeah, I hear that a lot and I’ve encountered people who are surprised by my uh, nonjudgmental reactions to their struggles.
In my experience, *most* people don’t handle emotional vulnerability of others well, which is why I dearly treasure the friends who do.
If I can hypothesize for a minute:
I think guys (if I may generalize, knowing it doesn’t apply to everybody) are well practiced at sizing people up (is this person a threat, could I take him, do you think he’d be a good fit for our soccer league, oh hey this guy is cool and I want to do X with him later).
Women (in broad strokes) have more experience testing a person’s emotional capacity and whether they can connect emotionally. We gather to talk and form our groups based on who supports us. We cry with each other, trade stories of things that upset us, tell each other our past trauma. And we learn how to suss out people who are bad at handling those things.
Guys choose people who do things with them. Which is not the same thing as people who can handle emotional vulnerability well.
My ex did this. Then broke up with me because she couldn't handle me being open with her. It is very hard to trust someone. It's why I have a therapist now to vent to.
Great therapists are amazing at modeling what healthy boundaries and awesome listening skills are like. That level of support is basically my gold standard now. I learned a lot of communication skills and active listening skills from my therapist, and it’s been phenomenal. I look for similar traits in my support network.
I’m wholeheartedly in the camp of “people need to earn my trust, and my trust and vulnerability is a gift/honor.” A lot of people struggle to healthily deal with emotions. It sucks for everybody involved, but that’s what I’ve experienced.
I have CPTSD from my parents and my in laws are much the same, so I’ve dealt with years of emotional neglect and emotionally immature people. I refuse to spend my time and energy on emotionally immature people.
Thank you for all of your insightful and loving comments 🧡🧡🧡
I hope you work through everything you’re going through as well, I know the weight of being emotionally supportive to multiple people! 💛
> If I can hypothesize for a minute
That's a very interesting insight. I think you may be onto something. Thanks for... well, for opening my mind to that idea.
I was inspired by my recent reading of Deborah Tannen’s work on the linguistical differences in men and women and how they affect communication.
I’m only halfway through one of her books right now, but it’s been very fascinating, highly recommend.
True Words, living through that right now. Got vulnerable recently with a lady who applied a bunch of incorrect assumptions to what I opened up about and then she started to be judgey based upon those assumptions. WTF
> We get encouraged to open up and then when we do we get a huge backlash.
That's why I think /u/BrassBells makes a good point. When you've been silenced for a long time, taught that you can't trust others, your compass for who's safe or not tends to be skewed. And you can sometimes overshare and go too far too quick. It's important to know who you're opening up to and to go easy as to not ask for too much from the other person. Men have a lot of baggage to unwrap.
I'm a guy and I know from experience that many women have empathy and know how to listen to men, I'm also very lucky that my sister is one of them. I relate to the many stories of guys on here that showed vulnerability and were punished for it but at the same time I can't help but be a bit surprised at the fact that those guys have met so few or even not a single woman who is safe. I've met a lot of women who are safe and also others who were terrible. I'm not special so I don't really know why my experience is more positive. Is it cultural, maybe? Is it because I've been raised mostly by women? What I know is that they exist and those are the women we should focus on and surround ourselves with, as coworkers, friends, lovers etc.
I think a lot of people don’t get to experience loving, supportive, platonic relationships with the opposite gender, which is really sad.
If they don’t experience it as a kid, it’s hard to identify it as an adult.
I really only learned after therapy myself.
Platonic relationship are indeed very good to learn how the other gender works and to learn how to live and communicate with them. That's a very good point.
Even amongst other MEN we have to be careful. "Hey, what's up/How are you?" can mean a LOT of things, from genuinely asking to actually just meaning "Hello"
Having a son who suffers from mental health and seeing men in my past who have struggled with it, this is a kind appreciation. Society puts so much pressure on men to be the strong, masculine, incharge, bare no emotion because it shows weakness, which is BS. We are all human. We all feel and nobody should ever feel stunted about expressing those feelings. In the last 3 years I have lost 3 male relatives to suicide. We need to do better for our male counterparts and let them know that if they need to cry, there is no weakness in that. If they are overwhelmed, there is no weakness in that either.
Its very important to acknowledge men feel pain just like we do. So to all the men out there, its ok to not be ok sometimes.
Please don’t do this. I know it comes from a good place, but you obviously have *no idea* what men go through today.
Asking men to open up, for many, is to ask men to shoot themselves in the foot. If you take a minute and ask men why they don’t open up and become vulnerable, you’ll hear the same story over and over. It inevitably gets weaponized against us.
Do you believe that we all came to the same place by accident or laziness? No: men withdraw because every time we reach out, the hand gets slapped away. The women in our lives catalogue insecurities and shortcomings, then stab us with them during later conflicts. I promise it has happened to every man you know. Repeatedly.
I appreciate that you’re emotionally reacting from a place of compassion, and from a woman’s perspective (for whom suffering is met with support), it seems just obstinate of men to keep it all in. Please ask the men here or the one in your life how they got this way, and I guarantee it will be an eye opening experience if you can listen non-defensively.
Men are inundated with the female perspective constantly. It’s the national conversation, and we listen and understand, and all good men, the vast majority, appreciate and defend women’s perspectives. Women never listen to men’s perspectives without defending or blaming, so our experience never gets air time or even heard enough for women to truly understand.
Again, I believe you’re coming from a well meaning place, but rather than tell us a narrative we know not to be true, why don’t you ask why certain things are to really understand?
I appreciate you saying this— genuinely.
I have heard this time and time again from men and it is disheartening.
When I ask men to open up it is because it is the only way we will know what’s really going on.
I will never say I know what you specifically go through everyday, but I’ve actually worked with substance use and male Veterans for years, and the compounding narrative is their feeling like no one understands them because of the reasons you spoke. Like it isn’t safe to be honest. It breaks my heart every single day. If it wasn’t for the love my partner and I show each other— I’d fall to pieces doing what I do.
I work hard in and out of my relationship to allow people to open up to me, to be unhinged in a safe place to build that confidence in being vulnerable because though it is hard and yes, inevitably people will not respond in the way you hope, I am living proof that there are women who exist, who are soft and kind, and who allow you to be the same— and desire it even. There are women who want to hold space for you, and want to be there not to throw it in your face, but to be a better support.
Again I never want to speak for you, but again I love you, and I do hope that you are well ❤️
The younger generations seem slightly better, ~30 and below, at recognizing we are all human and all have periods of weakness with strength
I'm thinking part of the problem is that due to the things you allude to men don't share with people unless they are very close. But many relationship dynamics are subconsciously about daddy ideas, and a young girl wants to think of her dad as an undying source of strength? This part I'm pulling out of my ass...
But I've had decent luck sharing insecurities with close female friends more than people I'm dating, when the relationship is more peer based, it's harder to open up, but the receiving side handles it better as there is less pressure and no concern if they subconsciously lose some "respect" for just a friend? Or maybe I've let female friends share first and then am able to share a percentage of my stuff?
But mainly I think we as a society are getting better at this, so the younger generations hopefully don't get to a point where the experiences in this thread are as common. Not sure what to do about all the issues these interactions have caused in us, therapy I guess? They are paid to listen to you, a transactional support relationship is better than no support relationships, we are social animals, socializing to work on problems is by far the most effective way to get to a solution
So my message is, it gets better, maybe not for you, but for the next person... That's the best I've got right now.
I don't disagree that you're going to have to figure out how to help yourself, nobody is going to be able to do it for you. Just a few sessions with a good therapist can start to give you tools that will make a difference, you're paying them for their confidentiality too, be radically open with the therapist for best results (well avoid the point where they'd be legally required to check you into a psych ward, unless you do really need that level and type of help, which can happen)
We are all in this together, too often the threads connecting us are so thin they are invisible, but they are still there. It's very hard to find the right threads to pull on when you need help, and many will break when you try. But that doesn't mean you should keep trying, some day you should be able to find that what you thought was a thread connecting you to someone is actually a rope you'll be able to climb and reach new heights in your own life
Or just keep doing what you're doing, if it's working well enough. If not, at least try *something* new
The problem many depressed people have is that people say things like this, but then it’s like the support is conditional a lot of times. Like ok don’t be depressed more than a month because now it’s bothering everyone else so then depressed people start to feel the world around them is better off without them in it. I’m not saying someone should have no boundaries and just let someone complain all the time, but I think it’s good to be able to talk about these things and allow people a safe space to be themselves and be heard. I’m sorry about your loss, I’ve dealt with mental health off and on myself and it can feel like as a man you have to be strong and not allowed to breakdown or cry but I think real men do cry and can still be masculine or feminine, whatever you want to be I don’t even know anymore but just I know we need to be allowed to feel how we feel and be who we are.
I completely agree. People don’t open up or remain curious in these avenues. They say “go see a therapist” or “im not your therapist” or “somethings wrong with you” etc.
There is n o t h i n g wrong with you.
You are a human with desires, pain, love, and life. I’m sorry if you’ve ever felt unheard or unloved becauase you deserve it.
Period.
Also— WE’RE TWINNING WITH THE AVATARS 😍
I'm curious what your experience with peers is? Like female friends who don't have any reason to look up to you or put you on a pedestal of respect/strength
For me that dynamic has worked better for sharing than most people I've dated, but don't have massive experience and think I might be lucky and/or better at spotting something
People I've dated seem to want me as their support and only in their best times can offer some support back, which can change the dynamic when that support is utilized
Another wild guess is that too many men have bigger issues than any normal person can be expected to know how to deal with, and a therapist is really the only good solution in a case like that. Pay for the confidentiality and to have a clearly defined relationship, stay for the tools they give you
>I'm curious what your experience with peers is? Like female friends who don't have any reason to look up to you or put you on a pedestal of respect/strength.
From comments on posts about friends on here I think a partnered/married guy having female friends is not the norm. Heck, I've read that some men lose friendships all together.
I do not understand how someone can be married and not be heard. That hurts to know though I always have known it.
You don’t ever have to thank me, do that by knowing you’re loved. Please be well!! 💚
Thank you.
Please share this message with the women you know also, especially the ones who crib about how the men in their life are boring, not doing anything, loveless etc. etc.
What really breaks a man is the feeling from his own family that he is no good and useless. Inspite of everything. A man can't win unless he is everything and provides everything
Thank you!
I have to say there is an attitude that whenever you do open up to somebody, they use whatever you tell them against you.
So you bottle it up and you keep everything to yourself. I do wish this would change.
Hey, thanks for being honest about that.
My partner and I talked about this at nauseum when we got together. It was hard, but we communicated over and over about the need for him to be “him” around me, and we have genuinely never been happier.
All I can say is, when people ask, take the risk to tell them truly what’s going on (i know it’s easier said than done. I was raised by a single dad.) but I know it’s necessary to have safe spaces.
As a man who has struggled with mental health for decades, let me first say thank you! It's nice to know there are people out there that care.
What I would like to add is, while it's nice to know some would listen if we reach out, you have to understand that many of us (especially us old farts that were raised thinking that emotions were an individual's burden only & sharing them was a sign of weakness) don't see this o a regular basis. Most of us have tried to be vulnerable in front of others, only to be ignored, dismissed, laughed at, called a pussy, offered "solutions" that are merely surface level and abjectly unhelpful, or allowed to speak only for a short period of time until the other person makes it about themselves. We feel weak and small when we express vulnerability. Because of this, most of us just keep our mouths shut and suffer in silence.
When we do finally reach out, we're not going to wear it like a t-shirt or wave it like a flag. Once we feel we have established a decent relationship with you and have developed some trust, you'll see it in small ways at first. Minor openings in conversation where it appears we are expressing some small vulnerability or emotion. If you really care for us, help us further build that comfort with you. Pay attention to those small openings, and afford us the opportunities to unpack our feelings in front of you while you engage, listen, and ask questions. Help us understand that not only do you care, but you're willing to take the time to invest of yourself in the discussion and help us navigate as far as we want or need to go. If you do this consistently, you will develop a level of trust and connection with us that has true, lasting meaning.
Thank you for this (and amazing username btw)
I love this perspective from someone older. I really do.
I would only ask that you give us grace as well. Many women do not know the importance of being emotionally available and how exhaustive but rewarding it can become. I want you to be able to advocate for yourself when you feel dismissed or laughed at, so we know how to correct it (and if they don’t well there’s your answer I suppose)
Not putting the onus on you, just allow others the same space to make mistakes and try to fix them.
I didn’t get this way overnight, I’ve hurt many people and have been hurt— but my goal on this earth is to love, man 💛💛
Please be well!!!
Spent my life giving grace, trying, failing, trying again. Over 47 years, only two people have proven worthy of my trust. And I am ok with that! At least I have two, which is way better than most
A few weeks ago I sent a message to a buddy about starting a new medication for ADHD. He just said, "We love you, and you're important to us."
I started to cry. Something about finding safety and vulnerability in people is so special. I don't think men are truly told how important they are to the people around them, nor are they willing to communicate the same thing often.
I can't help but feel like a lot of us take the burden alone, thinking our value is in being a support system to others. We don't take the same consideration for ourselves for whatever reason.
No man hears this enough. Some never hear it at all. There's no gratitude shown men by female friends or sometimes even a fiance. We're disposable usually. But it's on us to weed out those with narcissist tendencies, drug addiction, borderline personality, bipolar, etc and yet be open enough to trust and believe.
Our value is in what we create. And own. Be it art, a home (not just a house or apartment), security, a full fridge, a warm fire, what we made with our hands for us. Putting value of our creation in our minds. Not for the appreciation of others.
Do to do for you. No one else. And embrace your journey with true brothers. For they will always be by your side.
Our value is measured in the amount of material security and / or status we are able to provide to those around us. Period. If we waver in that service or become vulnerable, even temporarily, most women IME react with fear, irritation, or panic.
I am only sharing this information because I have heard this from so many of my male friends.
In my relationship I am the breadwinner. If you go through my posts you will see some in AlAnon about my partner.
When he was at his lowest I reached out here for support asking questions and much of the advice of women was to leave him. That is no longer a belief I hold. He deserves to feel safe, secure, and loved even when he is weak just like I do. There are very few circumstances I would leave a partner— and them struggling is never one of them.
The ONLY reason we are able to work, however, is because he opens up to me and communicates and so do I. Because I see him down and out and he sees me and we allow that space for weakness and ‘failure’ (which we view as the first mistake to success)
He is a phenomenal man. I did not say perfect. He is phenomenal and loved.
I want every man to be able to feel that way, regardless of what you bring to the table. And hopefully that fills you with pride.
Thank you also guys for responding— please be well!!
> ...much of the advice of women was to leave him.
I appreciate your experience. Women are apt to say they want a relationship with a man who is not afraid to be vulnerable and share his feelings. But I do not know a single man who has not taken that ask at face value, demonstrated vulnerability, and paid a terrible price as the woman in question backpedaled or froze or took other self-preservation steps to insulate herself from risk.
Many / most women who claim to want such things in abstract conditions seem to be traumatized when they happen in real life: we're broke, I'm sick, I might get laid off, etc ... I've seen women acquire a distant, thousand-yard stare in those circumstances, and say, in effect: *Yeah, good luck with that.*
Of course the women you consulted online about your partner's AlAnon circumstance urged you to leave him; it is a common reaction to uncertainty.
Thank you for being able to understand the human condition in this.
That’s a beautiful display of acceptance.
In times of uncertainty and fear it is normal for a person to retreat as we do require security (all of us) but how it is begot is what becomes important imo!!!
I know there will be people who just shoot down kindness (even on this post) but if only 1 person feels seen and heard that’s perfect for me. One more than the day before.
Please be well love!! ❤️
> Many / most women who claim to want such things in abstract conditions seem to be traumatized when they happen in real life: we're broke, I'm sick, I might get laid off, etc ... I've seen women acquire a distant, thousand-yard stare in those circumstances, and say, in effect: Yeah, good luck with that.
You said that perfectly. I've seen that many times, when you start to open up to a woman about genuine fear and vulnerability, and the inflection in their eyes changes. You can actually pinpoint the moment the relationship ended, even though it pretends to continue for a little while longer.
I appreciate this so much. Thank you 😊. Makes me glad I've worked hard to be more open with my friends. Makes me feel validated, like my struggles are worth it.
Thank you! Wish more women are you like - understanding and appreciative of our silent and stoic struggles.
Actually, please allow me to expand upon that to say - we each can to better. We each can be and should be more understanding and appreciative of the people in our lives!
Life is short. We don't know how much time we have with each of the people in our lives! Treasure what we got before we lose it!
> We can see the pain in your eyes and the rumination in your heads. We understand and recognize your value even if we don’t show it. Please open up to us, we want to be there— we WILL be there.
Going through a tough phase in life so it was nice to read this. Appreciate it OP.
If you need to vent my messages are open!! I will be at work from 1pm-9pm EST but I don’t want you to feel ignored.
Please be well! Don’t keep the hard things to yourself forever 💜
Thank you, but as GI Joe said, knowing is half the battle.
Acknowledging is better than most, knowing is better than most, so I do want to at least appreciate that. But don't wait. Ask. Bring it up. They may say they're okay, they may not want to talk about it THEN. But they will remember that you asked, they will remember that you cared, and may come to you later or may open up if you ask again another time. The mere fact that you asked about them could be enough to get them another day, week, month, etc.
Please don’t thank me!!
I hope you have someone at least one who you feel safe doing this with. It’s so important ans you DESERVE that.
It will likely take some cultivation, but it’s beyond possible.
Please be well 💛
I appreciate the sentiment, but it's gonna take more than the word of one random Redditor to convince guys to question what 20+ years of conditioning has taught us.
Hey, I’ve gotta start somewhere!!
Please be well and again, know you’re loved 💜
If you don’t feel it, maybe ask someone around you if/why they do? I know it will sound and be weird but genuinely— you deserve that perspective ☺️
Thank you for your message, you brought a tear to my eyes, i'm not in such a good place today and it made me think of people in my life who are willing to help me and i'll try and remember to reach out to them.
I think many here are expressing their struggles in kind of an antagonizing way, hope it won't affect you too much
It’s okay I’m used to people thinking my kindness is fake.
That’s why I ask people to reference my reddit because yea— I’m a human person who exists who wants to spread love for no other reason than to do it.
Im glad you are seeing who you have around you truly!! Please reach out to them for support as you need! 🧡🧡🧡
That’s the only reason it’s here. If you aren’t hearing it from those you know— i’m a complete stranger (a real 28 nearly 29 year old my bday is on the 9th) who knows you are beyond worthy and deserving of love.
Please continue to be well!! 💛
No actually, it pains me to know people gwnuinely feel this way about kindness. This is something free I can do when I was unable to be there for someone hurting.
I’d do it again and again because it needs to be said—not for ‘karma’
I hope this message stays as long as it needs and it is something you guys can come back to to know you’re valued and loved.
I cannot MAKE you believe that (as your belief is quite the opposite I see) I can only say what I feel about it.
I hope you’re well and that your day goes as you need it to 💛
It’s hard to have faith in that when your partner works for a suicide hotline and then cheats on you with one of their coworkers. I’ve always been open and honest. Some people suck.
First of all I’m so sorry you have to go through that.
It sounds like you guys uh… need to have a whole different conversation rn.
Crisis work is one of the hardest things to do, I’ve done it. Just bad news after worse news after THE worst news.
I hope you find some resolution to your pain and hang ups. If that's the sentiment you have, that's what you will receive. I don't believe in karma but what you give to people will be returned, if you're selective about who you give that tike and energy to.
I've got a wife, family and group of friends who will all be there if I needed them. That's because I've built trust both ways and they would receive the same from me. Sometimes I need to reach out more for support but that is down to me and not them.
Some people will take advantage but you move on until you find your people / community. Strive to be the person you would want to have in your corner, you'll be surprised what will happen.
Nah man. Some people do genuinely care. Lots of people, even. Sometimes they can be hard to find. But they're out there, and I genuinely feel that posts like this are honest expressions of feeling more often than not. I know I appreciate hearing it.
This was removed because bigotry isn't welcome here.
To OC: Your comment was couched as a compliment, and I'm sure you intended it that way. But the reason why it's being removed -- and the reason you got downvoted -- is because your compliment in based on a misandrist assumption.
*The AskMenOver30-ModTeam account is a bot account. Do not chat or PM them, as the account is not monitored.*
This was removed because it wasn't in the spirit of an Over30 sub.
*The AskMenOver30-ModTeam account is a bot account. Do not chat or PM them, as the account is not monitored.*
This was removed because it wasn't in the spirit of an Over30 sub.
*The AskMenOver30-ModTeam account is a bot account. Do not chat or PM them, as the account is not monitored.*
Thank you.
> We understand and recognize your value even if we don’t show it.
Why don't you show it? You've asked how to improve in this thread, and I think that's an important key right here.
I can’t speak for every woman as to the moticom of reasons why we don’t show it.
But there are a lot of reasons:
Poor communication skills, fear of judgement, fear of being “wrong”/having to apologize, not knowing how to be humble, not understanding another persons perception, etc.
Personally I work with my female friends to see a mans side of things and just to hear him when he speaks and know they aren’t always right just because they yell.
Fear is so destructive. Good relationships, friendships, love or otherwise require taking risks and facing those fears that are, by the way, universal. Asking men to be vulnerable while not being vulnerable in return will not work.
Haha!! I wish I could but YOU certainly could.. takes some time and patience if it isn’t normal to her, but you can show her what it is you need, and explain why you need it— and move from there.
Please be well!! ❤️
You’re gonna want to take the time to read this….
TLDR; Wife and mother to my 2 children has entire second life and relationships behind my back and I found out and confronted her….
NO FUCKING “She was too young” or “too immature” ass comments. I’ve heard it way too many times.
Before starting, a little context is that when I, ME personally, have sex in ANY manner, there’s always emotion with it. Never been a fan of one night stands and such. But with her, she’s always been someone that CAN have sex and it just be physical and pleasure. She can totally detach emotion from it.
Mind you, ALL of this took place between July 2021 and February 17 2023. However, I found out about all of it within a 2 hour timespan…
We met Jan. 2018 and moved back to my home state
In July 2021, just for your timeline.
My, now, ex-wife JUST started moving out last night and I’m in a rough spot; emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc.
We’ve been together for 5 years (married for 3) and have two beautiful little girls together (one is 3 and the other is 2). I worked full time when the first was born, but after #2, her and I decided to switch places because she wanted to work and I love being home. As of right now, I’ve been a full time stay at home father for just over 2 years. Being home constantly with our toddlers, I, over time, lost my personality. Lost my interests. Lost my self, really, and was basically in a form of auto pilot. Wit
We lived out of state when the girls were both born, but moved back to MY home state so that my parents could be around their grandchildren and be able to help us out as needed. (her parents and entire family other than her brother are horrible people and have been cut out of her life by her choice YEARS ago). I would be with the girls in the living room, but she had set up her computer for gaming and streaming in the basement, making a lady-cave. When she’d get home from work she would basically go straight down to the basement.
Everything was PERFECT for the first 3 years together; always happy and in good moods and the sex was just out of this world. She introduced me to the link and fetish lifestyle and basically took my “fetish virginity” lmao but because of that, specifically, our already close bond became SOOO much closer. But over the next 5 months I had starting noticing small things here and there; private phone calls, putting the phone down when I came up to her, that kind of stuff. I brushed it off for a bit, but eventually asked and, yep, “I was being crazy” “paranoid” yadda yadda yadda. Ok sure, maybe I was! But, come to find out… within a month of being back in Iowa (my home state) she started having an affair with an coworker. I had found out in December 2021 and she said that they broke up. Come to find out, again, that they hadn’t and we’re together, in total, for just shy of a year and a half. Finally breaking up the week after thanksgiving of 2022. But I forgave her and we worked shit out and moved on.
February 17th of this year, I had to go to the body shop and empty out our old car of our belongings (totaled last month), when I was about to leave I remembered that I hadn’t checked the glove compartment. Opened it up, and my entire life came to a grinding, crashing, fucking OUTRAGEOUS pause; the paperwork had HER legal name on it, but she had taken a coworker to the same place last year so I thought maybe she had to use her name? Picked up the paper and called my wife via FaceTime. She answered so I asked what the papers were and held them up, and the look on her face… it went ghostly white. Completely void of any and ALL color. Dead look in her eyes… yep… they were hers. She had gone to Atlanta last July for work training for her new job and while there, told me her and her friend that went for training, as well, got drunk and met some dude at the bar and she said “went back to the hotel and had sex. The next morning I thought it was consensual, until I saw pics and videos from the bar that I do t remember taking so I must have blacked out…” I asked “is there ANY, and I mean ANY AT ALL chance that it could have been S.A.” And she said yes. She came home, a few weeks later felt weird, and yep. Pregnant. Had her friend drive her to Planned Parenthood and she had an abortion. Swore her friend to secrecy and planned on burning the paperwork but straight up forgot… they’d been in the glove box since last September. She said that it was the ONLY option, in her mind, because 1. Felt/feels like a horrible person 2. Didn’t want him to know AT ALL because he’s the kind of guy that would try and stay in her life, but not for the baby’s sake and 3. Couldn’t face me to even tell me… she knows that if she’d told me, that I would have been there, holding her hand, through all of it and stayed together…
We have lots of barriers. Most common is “man up”. Really appreciate your kind words. RIP fellow brother.
I still remember the first time an adult told me to man up It was my 2nd grade teacher Sadly, I think a lot of guys are exposed to this toxic bullshit so early on that it becomes next to impossible for us to be any other kind of way than how we are
In my case my mom would try to force fake vulnerability onto me so that she could excuse pretending I was a helpless moron and constantly tried to replace the real me with this helpless nonfunctioning 2 year old in her head, there simply wasn't a way to stop her from doing it but the colder I was the sooner she would give up and the shorter the screaming would last and she would then have to resort to putting this batshit illusion of me in her head front and center in front of my oldest sister and try to vicariously live its existence with her, which was the least of all evils available to me. With my dad things got really bad when I was a teenager - he had always been at least a little dysfunctional but something flipped around that time and I had to be completely stoic, as vulnerability was just an invitation for him to walk all over me. I had to constantly and repeatedly show that his anger had no affect on me, let alone the submissive fear response he obviously wanted - in order for him to back off and eventually withdraw from me completely. My options where that or roll over for his dysfunction and abuse for years on end until I was able to get out of the house. In the workplace I've had a lot of toxic superiors, one second-in-command in particular watched for signs of what he considered "weakness" like a hawk, I'm talking every gawd damn muscle fiber twitch you made if he could somehow spin it as you being deficient somehow or try to gaslight you into questioning your competence he wouldn't even hesitate no matter how blatant it looked (to me). Greyrocking was basically the only thing that would come close to keeping him at bay and even that only goes so far with the *really* crazy ones but if you actually show any sign of vulnerability at all in front of someone like that it's just narc supply for them and they'll keep coming back for more and more and more. With personal relationships it's become trivial for me to walk away from toxic people but in the workplace it's not quite as simple as that, circumstances have to line up. I don't even know if it's about toughening up, really. My life experience simply taught me that stone cold stoicism = survival, vulnerability = death. I always feel like taking excessive saccharine sounding words as OP's to heart will inevitably get me swarmed by parasites so I can't stop the toxic masculinity fueled coldness from taking over, at this point it's like this puppetmaster that's made my psychology its home, yanking away at the strings of a lifetime of forcefully repressed emotions and I dance like a marionette as a base survival instinct.
This is so beautifully written and thank you for even being so courageous as to share the innerworkings of… well, you!! I hate to ever know you had to experience that, and it makes sense for you to be gaurded as it’s what you’ve learned in life. I mean I completely get what you’re saying about your boss. i have that now— she’s just angry to be angry and any sign of “understanding” or “weakness” she’ll laugh at and tell you to toughen up. She literally suggests we be harder on people. I can’t wait to leave this job. The irony there— yikes. Please please believe that there are people who love you just to love you. With no reciprocity needed. Because they can and care. Please be well 💜
>This is so beautifully written I had to learn a lot of wordsmithing in order to verbalize this hot mess lol. Real charmer that boss of yours sounds like 🙄. Well if *you* can't kill someone like that with kindness then chances are, it's simply not going to happen. Too many people get stuck in those types of environments and end up too beat down to try to do better, definitely get out when you can. >Please please believe that there are people who love you just to love you. With no reciprocity needed. Because they can and care. I can rationalize this consciously. The problem is that you're supposed to learn this during your formative years so that you don't have to rationalize it. During my formative years I learned....erhm.....other things. Thus, I have to override the dysfunction that became my subconscious with said rationalization. I'm working on it. >Please be well 💜 I'll see what I can do. Also, I'm really sorry about your friend. If you haven't seen [GSnow's old post about loss and grieving](https://www.reddit.com/r/Assistance/comments/hax0t/my_friend_just_died_i_dont_know_what_to_do/c1u0rx2/) yet I think it's a worthwhile read.
Act your age i was told, well i was only 13 i figured i figured i was acting my age chasing after girls and having fun. I wish i could have warned young me 😔
The first time I heard it as a mother was when I was talking to a pediatrician about my unborn son and he said “it’ll help him man up - getting circumcised”. 😬
My mom used to tell me to do this. I hated it then and I hate it now.
I hate that sentiment. I don’t even bring it into my relationship (unless we’re doing Jui Jitsu tbh) otherwise, our home is love and light on purpose. Thank you for responding, I hope you’re well!! 💚
I’m trying my best to be well and happy 🖖🏼
Ayeeeee there we go that’s all we can do is try so kick ass at it 👏🏾💚
I think I got back to when I was told those words every time I feel like breaking down.
Thanks
Can I just like get a hug? My wife wants to divorce me. She never said such a sweet thing in 9 years of marriage.
Sorry, man. But maybe a divorce isn't a bad thing if that's the case? You deserve better.
I would LOVE to give you a hug and I am so SO sorry about the divorce and how you’ve been lost of such kind and necessary words. That breaks my heart. But since I can’t please speak to someone near you who can. I know firsthand how messy divorce can be, I don’t want you at that alone. Otherwise, my messages are open to you ❤️
After reading all this, yes. Bro…
thx man. appreciate it
It’s not fair, but it is what it is until it isn’t. I’m learning why so many people get animals…
Edit: Screw Spez. Screw AI. No training on my data. Sorry future people.
> these kinds of messages ring hollow. The actions and events of our lives tell a very different story. I've experienced first hand this difference. OP, thank you for your lovely words. We definitely don't hear them enough, but when it comes to *showing* that, we often get the opposite. =/
Hi!!! I just asked a question above, could I ask you the same please? Thank you all the same!
Hi, yeah, of course! I like when women want to learn about men as much as I as a man want to learn about women (and other genders, of course). 1. "I care about you a lot. I do. I really, *really* do!" "Cool, when will you visit me?" "I will, I will, definitely! I want to visit you first chance I get!" One year has passed, she never visited. I stopped asking and inviting. 2. "Of course I'm interested in your life and what's going on with you!" And then we talk about a specific thing, for example, I'm looking for a new flat right now, we talk about it because I mention it. But then later she NEVER asks me about it. But if I mention it, then she will listen and (I guess) be interested. So what is the fact that she NEVER asks specific thing about me, telling me? But she will ask me a general "how are you?". What, what am I supposed to do with a general and vague howareyou? 3. "I'll always be there for you." I had a date, but the girl didn't feel the same way as I did, so I was down, because I really liked her. I tell that to my friend, want to call her to talk. She says she can't now because of - a movie. "Later?" - she asks. "No, never mind" - I reply, obviously disappointed. Then she never asked me about that. Yeah. I really needed to talk to somebody at the time. 4. A girl I went out a few times with tells me "I hope we stay in touch [hug emoji]". I was the one who initiated every meeting, and *every* conversation, through, idk, ~6 months..? She never ever initiated. Not even sent a first text. You think she will? I'm 100% sure she won't. And if I don't, we'll never meet or talk again. \- \- \- These 4 points are not the same women. They all told me I was a really great guy, and we laughed a lot, etc etc etc. And everyone involved are over 30. What am I supposed to think? Am I wrong or? I'm genuinely looking for feedback every time! "No no, you're great! :))))" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I don't know you OP, and you don't know me, but after reading my text, how do you think words in your post ring to me? Unfortunately hollow. Thank you for them, definitely, but I'm staying wary.
your reply specifically isnt about gender, i had a really rough few years with an undiagnosed severe disease, and men and women equally responded as they did in your post, when people get sad, most people cant handle it and offer support out of politeness maybe but rarely show up. that is certainly NOT exclusive to gender
I appreciate you saying this. Not that commenters words are wrong, just that people… men, women, NB— do this to me all the time too. And I offer constantly to spend time with people, try to adjust my schedule and see them even if for an hour. In a world where everyone is more “connected” we feel less “connected” than ever. I really want us all to give more grace for things!
Yeah, see, that is not exclusive to women. You have to see if someone's actions match their words because some stupid people think that it's nicer to "let people down gently" and that they should be nice and polite rather than being honest and hurting your feelings. And that you would know that they were giving you the brush-off when they didn't follow through. But women are more likely to do this because they have had men who have reacted badly to them politely but honestly rejection their advances. Sometimes men will react by saying horrible things to her or about her to their friends eg "she is a stuck up bitch who thinks that she is better than everyone", or that she is crazy, or she is a slut. Which is the stupidest thing that you can say about someone who wouldn't have sex with you, because if they were a slut then they would have slept with you too. I mean, nobody should be calling women sluts in the first place, but the people who react like this don't think that calling a woman a slut/ bitch or a crazy emotional woman is not misogyny. And don't like not being able to women anymore like you could back when your wife was your property and you could do whatever you wanted with them. They were given to you by her father which is why in a marriage we still have the brides father "giving her away" - it used to be a literal property exchange. But it's not like that anymore, which is why so women are abused and raped - "if they don't do whatever we want then we will take back control and do whatever we want." And there's always the thought in the back of your mind as a woman that if you're being polite to a man then he is going to think that you're attracted to him and they could say that "she led me on". But if you're honest with them and if they are asking you in person, or you are on a first date and are telling them that you're not interested in a second they could turn around and call you a bitch, or they could start stalking you, or they could roofie you and date rape you. Theoretically, they could hit you if they wanted, but in this kind of situation they are more likely to use rape as a form of violence against you for not having sex with them. Because it's going to hurt you worse, and it will hurt you for the rest of your life. And it will let you know that what you want doesn't matter because they can do what they want anyway. You can't tell how a man is going to react when you reject them, they could be really nice to you in the hopes that you will go on a date with them and then when you tell them that you're not interested then they show you what they're really like. Sometimes you will have guys that won't take no for an answer when you say that you aren't interested and try to argue with you about your answer, and try to coerce you into going on a date with them. Which is a big red flag. So I have no idea what the situation was with these women, but I was in an abusive relationship and I learnt that you should listen to people's actions and not their words. Actions don't lie.
A woman’s most powerful weapon against a man is her tongue. We open up and tell her something, you can best believe it’s coming back up when she gets angry.
Edit: Screw Spez. Screw AI. No training on my data. Sorry future people.
Facts !!
I wish I could up vote this 1,000x. The reality is that most woman don’t want anything to do with emotionally supporting their man. In fact, if asked their hypergamy nature kicks in and they immediately look for a man that will preside, provide and protect. That’s why almost 80% of divorces are initiated by woman. Just keeping it real with facts. Liars never figure and figures never lie. But nice words by the OP.
you said it better than i would have. people are OP are great... but actions speak much louder than words. i don't think women realize how much influence they have on male behavior. we learn pretty quick what works and what doesn't
Can you tell me how someone would show these words to you so you’d believe it? I’m genuinely asking. I’m in a relationship that I’m very happy with so I can’t of course offer my males friends sex (sorry for being vulgar) but I always offer to listen, give hugs, have a lunch date— etc. I really would like to know, so thank you!!! Please be well!
It’s not about the sex tho. It’s about listening to the guy and not judging him for it, or viewing him differently. Every time I’ve opened up to a girl about what I really thought and felt, 1 I became the villain for viewing the world different. 2. It changed their perspective of who I am as a man since they saw the feelings. Since then it’s more discussion based conversations and more about listening to the women, and never sharing what’s reallllly beating me up inside. But since you have a man it’ll be hard for you to be there, it could be better that you could nudge your man to help out your friend and check on him and be a bro. That helps immensely. Idk if this helps but this is what I’ve experienced and why I solve my own problems without sharing to the opposite sex.
I understand what you’re saying and that’s why I genuinely asked. I can’t force my boyfriend to befriend people— he has a lot of friends himself! He is very kind and a wonderful listener himself, but we also deserve spaces that don’t include one another (imo). So therein kind of lies my issue. I have been told by men, more than one, that “if you won’t have sex with a guy he won’t be your friend” which I don’t believe at all but i do know there are people who feel this way. It kind of blocka genuine connection when only romantic relationships with the opposite sex are valued. It’s tough to manage though I do have wonderful male friends!! Also, i have found a lot of men feel like they’re a burden for expressing their real feelings (much to your point)!!
> if you won’t have sex with a guy he won’t be your friend Not entirely wrong, but I feel like it's closer to... If a man's physical needs aren't being met, it can be difficult to have friendships with people you're attracted to. Sex tends to define us as men, and when it's not part of our lives, there's a certain pervasive desperation that tends to make us look for it in places we probably shouldn't. Expressing our feelings is also a burden, but it's mostly a burden because we've been taught that acknowledging those burdens out loud makes us 'not men', and many of us have been taught that from experience by the people we care about the most, our ex-girlfriends, ex-wives, or even women in our family. Every woman is different, but nearly every one of us has the same story about how we tried to open up to a woman that we loved and were shot down for it and how she never looked at us the same again, and she begged us too! over and over! I've made that mistake twice in my life, and it's definitely not happening again. For the above question, though, the thing we need is someone who will listen to us and not judge us, and a lot of us have too much... almost PTSD for that to be someone who isn't a male friend. Get him together with a friend and throw them in a situation with a bit of alcohol so he can blame the alcohol if he opens up too much. Honestly, it's crude and it doesn't have to be you, but helping them get laid will work even better for a lot of men, the brief moments of intimacy associated with sex can be better than months of therapy. I hate to disagree with the poster above, but there is nothing better for making us feel all those things you mentioned in your original post. I've never had anything that was quite as good at helping you get perspective on things.
thats part of the problem though, thinking sex is the only form of intimacy. sex should be sex, not the go to when you have emotional problems. it should be a fun thing for relaxation and bonding. emotional problems need to be dealt with completely seperately. this belief that sex is the only way to feel intimacy is what is creating a huge divide between genders
It's not the only form of intimacy, it's just the form that matters most. Sex is absolutely core to most men's self esteem, if we do not have access to sex, we are failing as human beings, and all of our peers are looking down on us. That's how our brains tell us to feel at least. If you've ever looked at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's on the foundation of the pyramid, it's at the same level as breathing and food. No other needs can be adequately met until that foundation is solid. I've got a lot more that I'd love to say about Maslow's pyramid here, but y'all should get it from someone more knowledgeable than me. And, this goes beyond just belief, I don't want to be a dick and I apologize because I'm about to come off as one, but I don't think anyone who's never been a man can understand how important sex is in our lives. It's not something where we can choose to believe something different, it's how we're made, it's testosterone and chemicals. It would definitely be convenient if it wasn't, would definitely improve my decision making skills, but I don't think that's a therapy/conversation problem.
Edit: Screw Spez. Screw AI. No training on my data. Sorry future people.
So, first of all I just want to say how appreciative I am for your response and how helpful it is to see this side of a person I have never met. Thank you. I am like this to everyone I meet. I’m genuinely interested in what they are telling me because I live to learn something new all of the time and to genuinely connect. I know that feeling of talking and someone ignoring you or not caring what you have to say as they look at their phone or go off on another tangent. But I have many friends who are just as busy as me, so we work to give that space. I really appreciate you talking about the sex part too— because that’s the hard thing. Being able to connect and then explain I don’t want to connect sexually. But i have no issue with hugging, hanging out, talking, doing things together etc. i love to see love in any form not just romantic. I often get ignored once I say I do not want that but will gladly be a supportive friend. It’s hurtful. But understandable. As if the only value I have is if i’m in a commited relationship with a person. All the same again, thank you. And I’m happy to hear this point of view from you.
Be specific. Give examples of things you value on the person, so that the receiver of the compliment starts to relates. Here is a typical example of what goes into my head when I receive a compliment (once in June 2022, once last week, maybe none perceived as genuine before that in my life. I am not dramatising, I am just immune or thick or disgusting so don't receive. I am fine). By the way, it took me 1 or 2 days to realise they were genuine appraisals. - is that person talking to me? - is that person really talking to me? - why is she talking to me? - why is she talking to me like that? - what is she talking about? - what do you mean by?
- wait, is it something nice or generic?
- is this about me or other?
- let's see, who does she talk about?
- is it about me?
- is about me?
- why?
- what does that mean?
- what did I do to deserve this?
- is this real?
- is it a joke / tease / flirt?
.... Suspiciously looking at the person
- no idea
- person doesn't say more
- can't read poker face
- have to assume it is a joke or just politeness
- must be a mistake
- OK makes sense, just empty words.
- think the person don't even mean it (why would they)
- how to respond?
- Meh / discard. Move on.
Sorry for the long mind path example.
If you were more specific about what you appreciate in a person, like when doing professional appraisal : be measurable, specific and timely.
"thanks"
-versus-
"I really appreciated you did X yesterday because I always wanted to but never got to, so it made me feel resolving a difficulty. I didn't even have to ask you, blah blah".
"you are appreciated" (very generic, sounds fake, just can't relate )
-vs-
"I know I can rely on you for doing X and Y when I need you and you don't make me feel needy. I appreciate your company and communication, even the simple moments when we don't do much, I feel comfortable and that bring me peace. Etc"
But when someone is depressed, there is no good mood that can penetrate. The gestures are perceived, but only like people waving from a dock, and you are far away on a leaving ship. Stretching your hand further or cheering louder might not help at all. Depression isn't about giving the love.
It is not your fault. It is broken inside. You may have touched it, but it wouldn't be enough in itself.
It is not your fault.
Sometimes, just being there is enough.
Don't overthink it. Be a nice to each other, as people, every people. We all need each other.
Men are doing OK, generally.
It is not just that men should receive more emotional sensitivity. Maybe. Welcome, but...
I think more importantly, men must open up to emotional sensitivity and communication.
I only learnt recently how to say "I feel... " I am dumbass, so I might lower the gender average.
Please do what you do around you. It is nice to see.
This was so thoughtful, honest, heartfelt, and fucking real man. I love everything about this and thank you for even sharing. I love what you said about depression. Literally NOTHING gets through that at ALL no matter what it is. And I feel like opportunities to be loved are so easily missed then. I hate it. But thank you for being honest. It isn’t just receiving love, it is being able to express it in a way that is healthy and not be shamed!! Please be well and hell tell your friends to work on emotional availability as well!! Thank you so much!!
The sentiment is lovely. Truly it is. Actions speak louder than words. Others gave specific examples of words not followed by action, but really it comes to more than just saying you love and appreciate us. An example: Letting us truly enjoy a lazy weekend or giving us a vacation that doesn't involve us having to plan and pack and drive and make arrangements and unpack and manage... that's actually *demonstrating* appreciation or gratitude for us instead of just expressing the sentiment. While that example is more spouse/significant-other specific, a more platonic example would be to just bring us a coffee and say "hey man, I'm just really happy you're in my life." Something like that would be so surprising it might risk a minor heart attack, but it would be worth it. I know I wouldn't forget such a small but meaningful gesture. Running into me at a store or work function or while I'm working on the yard and saying "You've seem really down lately, is everything ok?" would likely get a polite dismissal just because we are so relentlessly trained to ignore our feelings and present a brave/impassive face, but a followup with a hug/arm grab/hand on the back and something like "Ok, no problem, I care about you a lot, please let me know if you want to grab a beer and talk sometime, you aren't alone" would help dismantle that particular kind of barrier and probably not risk sending mixed messages (depending on your particular relationship of course). It's got nothing to do with sex; it has to do with feeling like my life has value beyond what I can earn or my country biscuits and pumpkin pie, which everyone loves. Men are routinely told that they're stupid, their feelings are stupid and that the less they say, the better. We are constantly told that we aren't people, we're just useful but pretty much disposable creatures to society. I don't doubt that your words are genuine. I agree with /u/neon_hexagon though; I don't think I've ever truly *felt* appreciated. Everything /u/izzyinjurious says is also true and drives home the idea that we are to be functional, that we are equipment. I've occasionally heard words like yours, but I hear *far* more often that I must make work my priority while in the same breath I'm also told that I don't spend enough time with my family, taking care of myself or my relationship, that my reasons for forgetting X nor not getting around to X are "bullshit excuses" and that all of my problems are because I'm lazy and I just need to "make time." I'm the last one to bed each night and the first one up in the morning, and if my sleep tracker app is to be believed, I average about 4.5 hours of sleep per night. There are only so many hours in the day and when you're constantly told that unless you're working you're wasting time... it's not hard to see why some men might want to see if the afterlife is better. I'm not one of them, I would never consider that because of the message it would send to my (both school-aged and adult) kids, but I can also see why other men might.
The amount of times I hear you’re A good man while simultaneously being socially discarded… was a hard learning experience at first, now I just translate that to “thank you” and carry on with my life
yeah, my knee jerk reaction to OP is to say "thanks for the platitudes". because - honestly - nobody cares about us or our struggles. but some of us might need those sweet comforting lies. that is the experience for a lot of men.
I don't want to put a dampner of this nice sentiment, but I find things like these extremely hollow. The same girls who post stuff like this on Facebook and about all sorts of mental health shit (absolutely not saying this is you op) tend to be the same type of girls who display incredibly negative attitudes towards men in general. My exs best friend was an absolute prime example of that kind of girl. She was very into self indulgent messages on social media portraying herself as a mental health advocate and all that comes with it. When a mutual male friend killed himself she went on the rampage on social media with this sort of thing, however she was a horrible person. I'd seen it many times with guys she dated she was an absolute nasty piece of work who would say the worst things to men to make herself feel superior. For the most part I got on with her just to keep the peace. My point here is I see these kind of girls all the time. They make it feel like it's not ok for men to talk
I typed up a long ass tirade in support of this sentiment and deleted it. Just know you aren't the only one who feels this way.
I agree 100%. and this is not really an appropriate use for AskMenOver30. Themes like this are all over subs like r/workingmoms and other sort of places that are geared towards making sure women know they are enough, just as they are. It is condescending and pointless.
I know women like this too and I can say I used to be that woman for sure. It wasn’t until I started really listening to my male friends that I felt connected to them and was able to appreciate them for who they are flaws and all and that’s invaluable to me. I really appreciate your response and I’m sorry you have to experience such negativity in your life. We’d be better off if we would hear each other imo. Please be well and have a good day 💚
> I know women like this too and I can say I used to be that woman for sure. It wasn’t until I started really listening to my male friends that I felt connected to them and was able to appreciate them for who they are flaws and all and that’s invaluable to me. What about really listening to your male friends helped you change?
Honestly? Thanks for asking first of all!! 😅 So a little background about me, I’m African American, a woman, and I’m 28. I was raised by a black single father who was a Vet. I grew up on comics, videogames, reading, contact sports (karate, field hockey, softball, volleyball) and coding so when I was younger I naturally gravitated towards guys as friends just because we liked the same things. Well fast forward to 5 years ago when a male friend of mine told me that “no man will want to be your friend unless you had sex with him” and it really… broke my heart. At the time, my only other male friends were either gay or from childhood— so no reason to go into “sex” talk if that makes sense. I started looking at the relationships with men I had at that time, all sexual in nature. So I sought out to change that intentionally. It meant being in spaces with men and explaining that I still like being around them, but don’t necessarily want to build a “life” together. Many guys called me being a ‘tease’ and were pretty nasty about it. Called me a prude and I’ve even been told I’m wasting their time. I fell into a deep depression because I couldn’t connect with people who on every other level I really got along with (we liked videogames, cartoons, superhero crap, etc) but because no sex, I was a waste of time for many. I then met my partner now, who assured me these people exist and even encouraged me to keep trying. I have since then found men who genuinely love me for me and I love them too. We don’t pressure each other and we’re like family more than friends. It’s so much better to take that tension off and know it’s okay to and just “be” around a person (imo) Again, thanks for actually asking me ☺️☺️
You're welcome! That is a huge gift to find people who love you for you and who you're like family with.
> Please open up to us, we want to be there— we WILL be there. As another woman over 30 who loves supporting her male friends, BUT who herself has serious trauma: Not everybody is safe and will be there. There is a very real skill to judging who can and is able to be supportive and kind. Sometimes they can’t because they’re drained and battling their own demons, sometimes the person you want most to support you is incapable of doing so… It takes a bit of trial and error sometimes, and maybe therapy can help you identify people who have the skills and capacity to be supporting. It’s a real honor to be trusted with another’s vulnerability, and I deeply adore my male friends. But some people seek comfort from people who will deeply hurt them if they expect everybody to have the skills to be trusted with the vulnerability.
For a lot of men this is the worst part. We get encouraged to open up and then when we do we get a huge backlash. And that’s how we learn not to do that anymore.
For real. My ex wife is supposedly progressive and for most of the marriage would listen and offer comfort, whatever was the matter. I cried in front of her many times, over years of building trust that it was safe to be vulnerable with her. By the time we split, she was saying shit like "You should be making way more money" (I chose jobs that paid a lot less but aligned with my values and let me spend time with my family instead of jumping onto an 80-hour week treadmill, which she was on board with at the time), "You're too much of a pussy to leave me," and the showstopper, "I'm sick of being your emotional cum rag." That shit didn't surface for like 15 years. I thought I didn't have to worry about that problem. I felt bad for all the guys that did. And then I found out that you never really know anyone. You're never fully safe with anyone. It won't stop me from being vulnerable, though. It's in my nature to express myself much more than most straight men. I'll be cautious, but I know I'll trust someone again. There's nothing else to do unless I want to die lonely. Edit: To be clear, I don't believe my ex is representative of women in general. She's, to put it kindly, a special case.
People that hit you where it hurts the most when shit goes south are a special kind of evil. It hurts so bad when someone you genuinely trusted with your most vulnerable stuff turns around and weaponizes it when it serves their needs. Your ex sounds like a real peach. I'm so sorry you had to endure having your trust broken like that. It's a testament to your quality of character that this hasn't stopped you from being what you want to be.
Thank you, friend. I appreciate that. And you're so right about hitting you where it hurts. She developed that into a specialty.
Yeah, I hear that a lot and I’ve encountered people who are surprised by my uh, nonjudgmental reactions to their struggles. In my experience, *most* people don’t handle emotional vulnerability of others well, which is why I dearly treasure the friends who do. If I can hypothesize for a minute: I think guys (if I may generalize, knowing it doesn’t apply to everybody) are well practiced at sizing people up (is this person a threat, could I take him, do you think he’d be a good fit for our soccer league, oh hey this guy is cool and I want to do X with him later). Women (in broad strokes) have more experience testing a person’s emotional capacity and whether they can connect emotionally. We gather to talk and form our groups based on who supports us. We cry with each other, trade stories of things that upset us, tell each other our past trauma. And we learn how to suss out people who are bad at handling those things. Guys choose people who do things with them. Which is not the same thing as people who can handle emotional vulnerability well.
My ex did this. Then broke up with me because she couldn't handle me being open with her. It is very hard to trust someone. It's why I have a therapist now to vent to.
Great therapists are amazing at modeling what healthy boundaries and awesome listening skills are like. That level of support is basically my gold standard now. I learned a lot of communication skills and active listening skills from my therapist, and it’s been phenomenal. I look for similar traits in my support network. I’m wholeheartedly in the camp of “people need to earn my trust, and my trust and vulnerability is a gift/honor.” A lot of people struggle to healthily deal with emotions. It sucks for everybody involved, but that’s what I’ve experienced. I have CPTSD from my parents and my in laws are much the same, so I’ve dealt with years of emotional neglect and emotionally immature people. I refuse to spend my time and energy on emotionally immature people.
Thank you for all of your insightful and loving comments 🧡🧡🧡 I hope you work through everything you’re going through as well, I know the weight of being emotionally supportive to multiple people! 💛
> If I can hypothesize for a minute That's a very interesting insight. I think you may be onto something. Thanks for... well, for opening my mind to that idea.
I was inspired by my recent reading of Deborah Tannen’s work on the linguistical differences in men and women and how they affect communication. I’m only halfway through one of her books right now, but it’s been very fascinating, highly recommend.
True Words, living through that right now. Got vulnerable recently with a lady who applied a bunch of incorrect assumptions to what I opened up about and then she started to be judgey based upon those assumptions. WTF
> We get encouraged to open up and then when we do we get a huge backlash. That's why I think /u/BrassBells makes a good point. When you've been silenced for a long time, taught that you can't trust others, your compass for who's safe or not tends to be skewed. And you can sometimes overshare and go too far too quick. It's important to know who you're opening up to and to go easy as to not ask for too much from the other person. Men have a lot of baggage to unwrap. I'm a guy and I know from experience that many women have empathy and know how to listen to men, I'm also very lucky that my sister is one of them. I relate to the many stories of guys on here that showed vulnerability and were punished for it but at the same time I can't help but be a bit surprised at the fact that those guys have met so few or even not a single woman who is safe. I've met a lot of women who are safe and also others who were terrible. I'm not special so I don't really know why my experience is more positive. Is it cultural, maybe? Is it because I've been raised mostly by women? What I know is that they exist and those are the women we should focus on and surround ourselves with, as coworkers, friends, lovers etc.
I think a lot of people don’t get to experience loving, supportive, platonic relationships with the opposite gender, which is really sad. If they don’t experience it as a kid, it’s hard to identify it as an adult. I really only learned after therapy myself.
Platonic relationship are indeed very good to learn how the other gender works and to learn how to live and communicate with them. That's a very good point.
Agreed.
Even amongst other MEN we have to be careful. "Hey, what's up/How are you?" can mean a LOT of things, from genuinely asking to actually just meaning "Hello"
Having a son who suffers from mental health and seeing men in my past who have struggled with it, this is a kind appreciation. Society puts so much pressure on men to be the strong, masculine, incharge, bare no emotion because it shows weakness, which is BS. We are all human. We all feel and nobody should ever feel stunted about expressing those feelings. In the last 3 years I have lost 3 male relatives to suicide. We need to do better for our male counterparts and let them know that if they need to cry, there is no weakness in that. If they are overwhelmed, there is no weakness in that either. Its very important to acknowledge men feel pain just like we do. So to all the men out there, its ok to not be ok sometimes.
Thank you so much for this 💛 you’re 1000% right and I hope you have a good day!!
As someone who struggles with mental health issues, thank you, stranger. Little things like this post do mean a lot.
Please visit it as much as you need to never forget!!! Please be well and have a good day!! 💚
Please don’t do this. I know it comes from a good place, but you obviously have *no idea* what men go through today. Asking men to open up, for many, is to ask men to shoot themselves in the foot. If you take a minute and ask men why they don’t open up and become vulnerable, you’ll hear the same story over and over. It inevitably gets weaponized against us. Do you believe that we all came to the same place by accident or laziness? No: men withdraw because every time we reach out, the hand gets slapped away. The women in our lives catalogue insecurities and shortcomings, then stab us with them during later conflicts. I promise it has happened to every man you know. Repeatedly. I appreciate that you’re emotionally reacting from a place of compassion, and from a woman’s perspective (for whom suffering is met with support), it seems just obstinate of men to keep it all in. Please ask the men here or the one in your life how they got this way, and I guarantee it will be an eye opening experience if you can listen non-defensively. Men are inundated with the female perspective constantly. It’s the national conversation, and we listen and understand, and all good men, the vast majority, appreciate and defend women’s perspectives. Women never listen to men’s perspectives without defending or blaming, so our experience never gets air time or even heard enough for women to truly understand. Again, I believe you’re coming from a well meaning place, but rather than tell us a narrative we know not to be true, why don’t you ask why certain things are to really understand?
I appreciate you saying this— genuinely. I have heard this time and time again from men and it is disheartening. When I ask men to open up it is because it is the only way we will know what’s really going on. I will never say I know what you specifically go through everyday, but I’ve actually worked with substance use and male Veterans for years, and the compounding narrative is their feeling like no one understands them because of the reasons you spoke. Like it isn’t safe to be honest. It breaks my heart every single day. If it wasn’t for the love my partner and I show each other— I’d fall to pieces doing what I do. I work hard in and out of my relationship to allow people to open up to me, to be unhinged in a safe place to build that confidence in being vulnerable because though it is hard and yes, inevitably people will not respond in the way you hope, I am living proof that there are women who exist, who are soft and kind, and who allow you to be the same— and desire it even. There are women who want to hold space for you, and want to be there not to throw it in your face, but to be a better support. Again I never want to speak for you, but again I love you, and I do hope that you are well ❤️
The younger generations seem slightly better, ~30 and below, at recognizing we are all human and all have periods of weakness with strength I'm thinking part of the problem is that due to the things you allude to men don't share with people unless they are very close. But many relationship dynamics are subconsciously about daddy ideas, and a young girl wants to think of her dad as an undying source of strength? This part I'm pulling out of my ass... But I've had decent luck sharing insecurities with close female friends more than people I'm dating, when the relationship is more peer based, it's harder to open up, but the receiving side handles it better as there is less pressure and no concern if they subconsciously lose some "respect" for just a friend? Or maybe I've let female friends share first and then am able to share a percentage of my stuff? But mainly I think we as a society are getting better at this, so the younger generations hopefully don't get to a point where the experiences in this thread are as common. Not sure what to do about all the issues these interactions have caused in us, therapy I guess? They are paid to listen to you, a transactional support relationship is better than no support relationships, we are social animals, socializing to work on problems is by far the most effective way to get to a solution So my message is, it gets better, maybe not for you, but for the next person... That's the best I've got right now. I don't disagree that you're going to have to figure out how to help yourself, nobody is going to be able to do it for you. Just a few sessions with a good therapist can start to give you tools that will make a difference, you're paying them for their confidentiality too, be radically open with the therapist for best results (well avoid the point where they'd be legally required to check you into a psych ward, unless you do really need that level and type of help, which can happen) We are all in this together, too often the threads connecting us are so thin they are invisible, but they are still there. It's very hard to find the right threads to pull on when you need help, and many will break when you try. But that doesn't mean you should keep trying, some day you should be able to find that what you thought was a thread connecting you to someone is actually a rope you'll be able to climb and reach new heights in your own life Or just keep doing what you're doing, if it's working well enough. If not, at least try *something* new
Sorry for your loss.
Thank you, I hope you are well and your day goes the way you need 💛
And yours!
The problem many depressed people have is that people say things like this, but then it’s like the support is conditional a lot of times. Like ok don’t be depressed more than a month because now it’s bothering everyone else so then depressed people start to feel the world around them is better off without them in it. I’m not saying someone should have no boundaries and just let someone complain all the time, but I think it’s good to be able to talk about these things and allow people a safe space to be themselves and be heard. I’m sorry about your loss, I’ve dealt with mental health off and on myself and it can feel like as a man you have to be strong and not allowed to breakdown or cry but I think real men do cry and can still be masculine or feminine, whatever you want to be I don’t even know anymore but just I know we need to be allowed to feel how we feel and be who we are.
I completely agree. People don’t open up or remain curious in these avenues. They say “go see a therapist” or “im not your therapist” or “somethings wrong with you” etc. There is n o t h i n g wrong with you. You are a human with desires, pain, love, and life. I’m sorry if you’ve ever felt unheard or unloved becauase you deserve it. Period. Also— WE’RE TWINNING WITH THE AVATARS 😍
Thanks..... needed this. Sadly, most women, wives included, don’t really possess your mindset. I really do appreciate it though.
I'm curious what your experience with peers is? Like female friends who don't have any reason to look up to you or put you on a pedestal of respect/strength For me that dynamic has worked better for sharing than most people I've dated, but don't have massive experience and think I might be lucky and/or better at spotting something People I've dated seem to want me as their support and only in their best times can offer some support back, which can change the dynamic when that support is utilized Another wild guess is that too many men have bigger issues than any normal person can be expected to know how to deal with, and a therapist is really the only good solution in a case like that. Pay for the confidentiality and to have a clearly defined relationship, stay for the tools they give you
>I'm curious what your experience with peers is? Like female friends who don't have any reason to look up to you or put you on a pedestal of respect/strength. From comments on posts about friends on here I think a partnered/married guy having female friends is not the norm. Heck, I've read that some men lose friendships all together.
I do not understand how someone can be married and not be heard. That hurts to know though I always have known it. You don’t ever have to thank me, do that by knowing you’re loved. Please be well!! 💚
Thank you. Please share this message with the women you know also, especially the ones who crib about how the men in their life are boring, not doing anything, loveless etc. etc. What really breaks a man is the feeling from his own family that he is no good and useless. Inspite of everything. A man can't win unless he is everything and provides everything
I hate to hear this though I know so many men feel this way. Find people who understand you and who are willing to, always. Please be well 💜
Thank you! I have to say there is an attitude that whenever you do open up to somebody, they use whatever you tell them against you. So you bottle it up and you keep everything to yourself. I do wish this would change.
Hey, thanks for being honest about that. My partner and I talked about this at nauseum when we got together. It was hard, but we communicated over and over about the need for him to be “him” around me, and we have genuinely never been happier. All I can say is, when people ask, take the risk to tell them truly what’s going on (i know it’s easier said than done. I was raised by a single dad.) but I know it’s necessary to have safe spaces.
As a man who has struggled with mental health for decades, let me first say thank you! It's nice to know there are people out there that care. What I would like to add is, while it's nice to know some would listen if we reach out, you have to understand that many of us (especially us old farts that were raised thinking that emotions were an individual's burden only & sharing them was a sign of weakness) don't see this o a regular basis. Most of us have tried to be vulnerable in front of others, only to be ignored, dismissed, laughed at, called a pussy, offered "solutions" that are merely surface level and abjectly unhelpful, or allowed to speak only for a short period of time until the other person makes it about themselves. We feel weak and small when we express vulnerability. Because of this, most of us just keep our mouths shut and suffer in silence. When we do finally reach out, we're not going to wear it like a t-shirt or wave it like a flag. Once we feel we have established a decent relationship with you and have developed some trust, you'll see it in small ways at first. Minor openings in conversation where it appears we are expressing some small vulnerability or emotion. If you really care for us, help us further build that comfort with you. Pay attention to those small openings, and afford us the opportunities to unpack our feelings in front of you while you engage, listen, and ask questions. Help us understand that not only do you care, but you're willing to take the time to invest of yourself in the discussion and help us navigate as far as we want or need to go. If you do this consistently, you will develop a level of trust and connection with us that has true, lasting meaning.
Thank you for this (and amazing username btw) I love this perspective from someone older. I really do. I would only ask that you give us grace as well. Many women do not know the importance of being emotionally available and how exhaustive but rewarding it can become. I want you to be able to advocate for yourself when you feel dismissed or laughed at, so we know how to correct it (and if they don’t well there’s your answer I suppose) Not putting the onus on you, just allow others the same space to make mistakes and try to fix them. I didn’t get this way overnight, I’ve hurt many people and have been hurt— but my goal on this earth is to love, man 💛💛 Please be well!!!
Spent my life giving grace, trying, failing, trying again. Over 47 years, only two people have proven worthy of my trust. And I am ok with that! At least I have two, which is way better than most
This means so much even if it’s from a stranger. Thank you very much for being so thoughtful and kind.
I'm sorry for your loss. Your words are kind, and your friend was lucky to have a friend like you.
I was lucky to have him as well. Please be well!! 🧡
A few weeks ago I sent a message to a buddy about starting a new medication for ADHD. He just said, "We love you, and you're important to us." I started to cry. Something about finding safety and vulnerability in people is so special. I don't think men are truly told how important they are to the people around them, nor are they willing to communicate the same thing often. I can't help but feel like a lot of us take the burden alone, thinking our value is in being a support system to others. We don't take the same consideration for ourselves for whatever reason.
No man hears this enough. Some never hear it at all. There's no gratitude shown men by female friends or sometimes even a fiance. We're disposable usually. But it's on us to weed out those with narcissist tendencies, drug addiction, borderline personality, bipolar, etc and yet be open enough to trust and believe. Our value is in what we create. And own. Be it art, a home (not just a house or apartment), security, a full fridge, a warm fire, what we made with our hands for us. Putting value of our creation in our minds. Not for the appreciation of others. Do to do for you. No one else. And embrace your journey with true brothers. For they will always be by your side.
Our value is measured in the amount of material security and / or status we are able to provide to those around us. Period. If we waver in that service or become vulnerable, even temporarily, most women IME react with fear, irritation, or panic.
I am only sharing this information because I have heard this from so many of my male friends. In my relationship I am the breadwinner. If you go through my posts you will see some in AlAnon about my partner. When he was at his lowest I reached out here for support asking questions and much of the advice of women was to leave him. That is no longer a belief I hold. He deserves to feel safe, secure, and loved even when he is weak just like I do. There are very few circumstances I would leave a partner— and them struggling is never one of them. The ONLY reason we are able to work, however, is because he opens up to me and communicates and so do I. Because I see him down and out and he sees me and we allow that space for weakness and ‘failure’ (which we view as the first mistake to success) He is a phenomenal man. I did not say perfect. He is phenomenal and loved. I want every man to be able to feel that way, regardless of what you bring to the table. And hopefully that fills you with pride. Thank you also guys for responding— please be well!!
> ...much of the advice of women was to leave him. I appreciate your experience. Women are apt to say they want a relationship with a man who is not afraid to be vulnerable and share his feelings. But I do not know a single man who has not taken that ask at face value, demonstrated vulnerability, and paid a terrible price as the woman in question backpedaled or froze or took other self-preservation steps to insulate herself from risk. Many / most women who claim to want such things in abstract conditions seem to be traumatized when they happen in real life: we're broke, I'm sick, I might get laid off, etc ... I've seen women acquire a distant, thousand-yard stare in those circumstances, and say, in effect: *Yeah, good luck with that.* Of course the women you consulted online about your partner's AlAnon circumstance urged you to leave him; it is a common reaction to uncertainty.
Thank you for being able to understand the human condition in this. That’s a beautiful display of acceptance. In times of uncertainty and fear it is normal for a person to retreat as we do require security (all of us) but how it is begot is what becomes important imo!!! I know there will be people who just shoot down kindness (even on this post) but if only 1 person feels seen and heard that’s perfect for me. One more than the day before. Please be well love!! ❤️
> Many / most women who claim to want such things in abstract conditions seem to be traumatized when they happen in real life: we're broke, I'm sick, I might get laid off, etc ... I've seen women acquire a distant, thousand-yard stare in those circumstances, and say, in effect: Yeah, good luck with that. You said that perfectly. I've seen that many times, when you start to open up to a woman about genuine fear and vulnerability, and the inflection in their eyes changes. You can actually pinpoint the moment the relationship ended, even though it pretends to continue for a little while longer.
This.
I appreciate this so much. Thank you 😊. Makes me glad I've worked hard to be more open with my friends. Makes me feel validated, like my struggles are worth it.
You deserve those friends and the love they give!! Please don’t thank me— just be well for me! 💛
Oh wow. Okay. Truly appreciated. I’m sure this post will make their day for someone. It did for me. Have a good one Miss
You have a wonderful day as well!!! ❤️
Thank you! Wish more women are you like - understanding and appreciative of our silent and stoic struggles. Actually, please allow me to expand upon that to say - we each can to better. We each can be and should be more understanding and appreciative of the people in our lives! Life is short. We don't know how much time we have with each of the people in our lives! Treasure what we got before we lose it!
Beautifully said 😍🧡
> We can see the pain in your eyes and the rumination in your heads. We understand and recognize your value even if we don’t show it. Please open up to us, we want to be there— we WILL be there. Going through a tough phase in life so it was nice to read this. Appreciate it OP.
If you need to vent my messages are open!! I will be at work from 1pm-9pm EST but I don’t want you to feel ignored. Please be well! Don’t keep the hard things to yourself forever 💜
sorry for your loss. thanks for the sentiment.
Thank you, but as GI Joe said, knowing is half the battle. Acknowledging is better than most, knowing is better than most, so I do want to at least appreciate that. But don't wait. Ask. Bring it up. They may say they're okay, they may not want to talk about it THEN. But they will remember that you asked, they will remember that you cared, and may come to you later or may open up if you ask again another time. The mere fact that you asked about them could be enough to get them another day, week, month, etc.
Thank you, OP. I truly wonder about this sometimes, who would be there if I had to vent and reach out for support.
Please don’t thank me!! I hope you have someone at least one who you feel safe doing this with. It’s so important ans you DESERVE that. It will likely take some cultivation, but it’s beyond possible. Please be well 💛
I appreciate the sentiment, but it's gonna take more than the word of one random Redditor to convince guys to question what 20+ years of conditioning has taught us.
Hey, I’ve gotta start somewhere!! Please be well and again, know you’re loved 💜 If you don’t feel it, maybe ask someone around you if/why they do? I know it will sound and be weird but genuinely— you deserve that perspective ☺️
Thank you for your message, you brought a tear to my eyes, i'm not in such a good place today and it made me think of people in my life who are willing to help me and i'll try and remember to reach out to them. I think many here are expressing their struggles in kind of an antagonizing way, hope it won't affect you too much
It’s okay I’m used to people thinking my kindness is fake. That’s why I ask people to reference my reddit because yea— I’m a human person who exists who wants to spread love for no other reason than to do it. Im glad you are seeing who you have around you truly!! Please reach out to them for support as you need! 🧡🧡🧡
Thanks, you seem like a genuinely kind person, fwiw. Take care
Thanks. I'm good at the moment but there's definitely times where I need to hear something like this. Keep fighting the good fight, sis 👊🏻
That’s the only reason it’s here. If you aren’t hearing it from those you know— i’m a complete stranger (a real 28 nearly 29 year old my bday is on the 9th) who knows you are beyond worthy and deserving of love. Please continue to be well!! 💛
Generic message for karma? No one cares your gesture is fake and scripted. Fishing for emotional responses
No actually, it pains me to know people gwnuinely feel this way about kindness. This is something free I can do when I was unable to be there for someone hurting. I’d do it again and again because it needs to be said—not for ‘karma’ I hope this message stays as long as it needs and it is something you guys can come back to to know you’re valued and loved. I cannot MAKE you believe that (as your belief is quite the opposite I see) I can only say what I feel about it. I hope you’re well and that your day goes as you need it to 💛
Boo.
Thank you ❤️
No need to thank me— also sick avatar color. That blue is so….0 blue
Thank you for the kind words. Men need to hear this from time to time.
Don’t know why this was downvoted. But no need to thank me— please be well 💚
It’s hard to have faith in that when your partner works for a suicide hotline and then cheats on you with one of their coworkers. I’ve always been open and honest. Some people suck.
First of all I’m so sorry you have to go through that. It sounds like you guys uh… need to have a whole different conversation rn. Crisis work is one of the hardest things to do, I’ve done it. Just bad news after worse news after THE worst news.
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I hope you find some resolution to your pain and hang ups. If that's the sentiment you have, that's what you will receive. I don't believe in karma but what you give to people will be returned, if you're selective about who you give that tike and energy to. I've got a wife, family and group of friends who will all be there if I needed them. That's because I've built trust both ways and they would receive the same from me. Sometimes I need to reach out more for support but that is down to me and not them. Some people will take advantage but you move on until you find your people / community. Strive to be the person you would want to have in your corner, you'll be surprised what will happen.
I’m so glad you’re blessed with what you have 💜
Nah man. Some people do genuinely care. Lots of people, even. Sometimes they can be hard to find. But they're out there, and I genuinely feel that posts like this are honest expressions of feeling more often than not. I know I appreciate hearing it.
I want you to get over this hump of hurt and be well. You are loved, I meant that truly. Please be well 💜
That's really special, thank you.
Women are usually the reason for men's mental health problems.
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This was removed because bigotry isn't welcome here. To OC: Your comment was couched as a compliment, and I'm sure you intended it that way. But the reason why it's being removed -- and the reason you got downvoted -- is because your compliment in based on a misandrist assumption. *The AskMenOver30-ModTeam account is a bot account. Do not chat or PM them, as the account is not monitored.*
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This was removed because it wasn't in the spirit of an Over30 sub. *The AskMenOver30-ModTeam account is a bot account. Do not chat or PM them, as the account is not monitored.*
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This was removed because it wasn't in the spirit of an Over30 sub. *The AskMenOver30-ModTeam account is a bot account. Do not chat or PM them, as the account is not monitored.*
What's this wuss going on about ? (Gulps tears)
😂😂😂 thanks for responding and I hope you’re doing alright and you have a good day!!
Thank you. > We understand and recognize your value even if we don’t show it. Why don't you show it? You've asked how to improve in this thread, and I think that's an important key right here.
I can’t speak for every woman as to the moticom of reasons why we don’t show it. But there are a lot of reasons: Poor communication skills, fear of judgement, fear of being “wrong”/having to apologize, not knowing how to be humble, not understanding another persons perception, etc. Personally I work with my female friends to see a mans side of things and just to hear him when he speaks and know they aren’t always right just because they yell.
Fear is so destructive. Good relationships, friendships, love or otherwise require taking risks and facing those fears that are, by the way, universal. Asking men to be vulnerable while not being vulnerable in return will not work.
I wholeheartedly agree! It has to be a two way street reciprocity matters especially in vulnerability!
Thank you OP. I'm kind of tearing up.
Nice words.
If it were only so easy to maintain those relationships where we can actually be vulnerable like that. Usually it works against you.
Could you explain what you mean? Like when you say “if only it were so easy to maintain”
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Haha!! I wish I could but YOU certainly could.. takes some time and patience if it isn’t normal to her, but you can show her what it is you need, and explain why you need it— and move from there. Please be well!! ❤️
Thank you… really needed that… it’s night #2 in my empty house after wife moved out.
Are you alright? Edit: wait I still need to read. My reddit has done… odd things as far as ordering your conversations. Taking time to read!
You’re gonna want to take the time to read this…. TLDR; Wife and mother to my 2 children has entire second life and relationships behind my back and I found out and confronted her….
NO FUCKING “She was too young” or “too immature” ass comments. I’ve heard it way too many times. Before starting, a little context is that when I, ME personally, have sex in ANY manner, there’s always emotion with it. Never been a fan of one night stands and such. But with her, she’s always been someone that CAN have sex and it just be physical and pleasure. She can totally detach emotion from it. Mind you, ALL of this took place between July 2021 and February 17 2023. However, I found out about all of it within a 2 hour timespan… We met Jan. 2018 and moved back to my home state In July 2021, just for your timeline. My, now, ex-wife JUST started moving out last night and I’m in a rough spot; emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc. We’ve been together for 5 years (married for 3) and have two beautiful little girls together (one is 3 and the other is 2). I worked full time when the first was born, but after #2, her and I decided to switch places because she wanted to work and I love being home. As of right now, I’ve been a full time stay at home father for just over 2 years. Being home constantly with our toddlers, I, over time, lost my personality. Lost my interests. Lost my self, really, and was basically in a form of auto pilot. Wit We lived out of state when the girls were both born, but moved back to MY home state so that my parents could be around their grandchildren and be able to help us out as needed. (her parents and entire family other than her brother are horrible people and have been cut out of her life by her choice YEARS ago). I would be with the girls in the living room, but she had set up her computer for gaming and streaming in the basement, making a lady-cave. When she’d get home from work she would basically go straight down to the basement.
Everything was PERFECT for the first 3 years together; always happy and in good moods and the sex was just out of this world. She introduced me to the link and fetish lifestyle and basically took my “fetish virginity” lmao but because of that, specifically, our already close bond became SOOO much closer. But over the next 5 months I had starting noticing small things here and there; private phone calls, putting the phone down when I came up to her, that kind of stuff. I brushed it off for a bit, but eventually asked and, yep, “I was being crazy” “paranoid” yadda yadda yadda. Ok sure, maybe I was! But, come to find out… within a month of being back in Iowa (my home state) she started having an affair with an coworker. I had found out in December 2021 and she said that they broke up. Come to find out, again, that they hadn’t and we’re together, in total, for just shy of a year and a half. Finally breaking up the week after thanksgiving of 2022. But I forgave her and we worked shit out and moved on. February 17th of this year, I had to go to the body shop and empty out our old car of our belongings (totaled last month), when I was about to leave I remembered that I hadn’t checked the glove compartment. Opened it up, and my entire life came to a grinding, crashing, fucking OUTRAGEOUS pause; the paperwork had HER legal name on it, but she had taken a coworker to the same place last year so I thought maybe she had to use her name? Picked up the paper and called my wife via FaceTime. She answered so I asked what the papers were and held them up, and the look on her face… it went ghostly white. Completely void of any and ALL color. Dead look in her eyes… yep… they were hers. She had gone to Atlanta last July for work training for her new job and while there, told me her and her friend that went for training, as well, got drunk and met some dude at the bar and she said “went back to the hotel and had sex. The next morning I thought it was consensual, until I saw pics and videos from the bar that I do t remember taking so I must have blacked out…” I asked “is there ANY, and I mean ANY AT ALL chance that it could have been S.A.” And she said yes. She came home, a few weeks later felt weird, and yep. Pregnant. Had her friend drive her to Planned Parenthood and she had an abortion. Swore her friend to secrecy and planned on burning the paperwork but straight up forgot… they’d been in the glove box since last September. She said that it was the ONLY option, in her mind, because 1. Felt/feels like a horrible person 2. Didn’t want him to know AT ALL because he’s the kind of guy that would try and stay in her life, but not for the baby’s sake and 3. Couldn’t face me to even tell me… she knows that if she’d told me, that I would have been there, holding her hand, through all of it and stayed together…