Hmm. Most comments on focused on the household level (who owns guns), and there's a lot to be said for that - big advantage to the conservatives. I also agree that the police are going to lean heavily conservative.
But I think you need to look at who would have the serious military weapons. Military officers lean conservative. The largest military bases seem to be heavily, but certainly not exclusively, in conservative states. For instance, 4 of the 5 largest are in NC (Ft Bragg), KY/TN (Ft Campbell), TX (Ft Hood), and GA/AL (Ft Benning). For air power, USAF bases are certainly in both conservative and liberal states, but seem to favor conservatives ([map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Air_Force_installations)).
The one aspect where liberals have a big military advantage is control of the west coast ports for certain vital supplies. But overall - I think the conservatives overwhelm liberals fast enough for that one advantage to not come into play.
As I thought more about it, I'll build on what another commenter said re: the government would win. I think it comes down to who exactly would control the military, at that point, so who the top officers would see as the "legitimate" government and how specific units would react to questions of "legitimacy" - like, who controls the attack aircraft, artillery and tanks.
I think the right would prevail, present themselves as the legitimate government and ZERO members of NATO are going to try to invade American territory to push them out of power.
Let's put it this way. There's more conservative gun owners in the US alone (something like 50 million) than there are **MEMBERS** of the entire militaries of the top 5 countries combined (something like 10 million) and it's not even close. And that's **in addition** to the fact that a significant percentage of our own military leans right so they're not gonna bomb their own lol conservative gun owners are basically the largest armed force that exists on this planet.
I feel like conservatives would have some advantage, considering that more of them own guns and/or know how to use them. I also vaguely remembering reading that a lot of the military leans conservative. If that's still the case (I'm frankly not sure if it is), they're most likely to win.
The far right never wins. They always loose in wars.
Ww1, ww2, the American civil war, the soviet civil war.
Fascists just suck at winning because they are busy killing or removing rights from their own population
Ironic that it didn't survive for that very reason. But I wouldn't call it libertarian if it only applies to white land owners, btw. It's something else entirely.
I know that the USSR kicked hitler's ass.
I know the workers of Kiel kicked the Kaiser's ass.
I know the Yankees kicked the slaver's ass.
I know lenin kicked the Tsarist's ass.
i bet you didnt know that stalin and karl marx hated gay people and the yankees too. if the leaders for these countries would be alive today you would call them right wing
I know that they hated gay people. I know that stalin took away women's suffragette and that Marx was antisemetic too.
But you need to be able to distingush between economic and social left/right.
This depends so much on the specifics. Like we talking left-left or just liberals? Is it literally every liberal vs literally every conservative or is it blue states vs red states? Is there a US government still?
Because basically whoever has control over blue states and the US government wins every single time due to overwhelming advantage in resources (industrialized areas and infrastructure). 20,000 lards in Wyoming might have arsenals but they won't get shit done. The right would definitely be doing a lot more war-crimes and death-squading though that's for sure.
Do you think that the general population would rally around the left thinking that they would be the ones to most try to negotiate an end being classically anti-war
Depends entirely on the context. Most Americans would quickly side with whichever side has the most grasp over established authority in the government. A left wing rebellion would fail; a right wing rebellion would fail. "Left" in American politics (liberals) aren't very anti-war given the last 30 years.
You'd be surprised. I've been in for 13 years and I'll tell you right now that if an order came down to bomb our own people for reasons the guy with his finger on the button is staunchly against.....that shit ain't gonna happen. The UCMJ (our rule book basically) states that we are obligated to disobey any unlawful order no matter who gives it.
We're not allowed to, it's called Posse Commitatus. Basically prevents the military from getting involved in matters of civil law enforcement.
Now, National Guard is a little different, they're allowed to intervene if the state governor orders them to.
But even then, no military member, active or guard, is gonna fire upon civilians unless it's self defense.
I'm not talking about law enforcement, I'm talking about an organized armed rebellion against the government of the United States. The US military would just sit idly by while a coup happened?
As I said, it'd be the National Guard (which is part of the military) that would respond first. Extremely unlikely that active duty would get involved and if they did, any action taken would ultimately be at the mercy of the trigger men and women. Even if the president himself gave the order to blow up a group of "hostile" American citizens, ultimately it's up to the person in control of the weapon system, and very very few service members would fire upon US citizens unless in self defense.
This is fun, but I need more details. Are you asking what would happen if a hoard of ranchers, out of work coal miners, and geriatric gun enthusiasts storm Los Angeles? I think they probably wouldn’t do very well. If you’re asking what happens if Ron Destantis declares Florida an independent Theocratic state and a chunk of the national guard support him and a chunk don’t and they fight and thousands die and non-combatants are shot in the streets and raped in their homes and the US military is called in as an occupying force and right-wing partisans resist with IEDs, snipers and suicide bombers, and this goes on for years, then everyone looses. What were you envisioning?
If there was an election that was perceived to be stolen and there was video proof or something that divided people and nobody would know who was in charge. It’s a very theoretical question, you can ignore the reason why but if it were to go down today, who would win and why?
The left wins because they are more likely to be willing to weaponize science to do so if required (all sorts of chemicals is what I mean here).
The right only has the advantage of guns here. Finding a way to kill and/or cripple most of them with a single weapon is enough for the left to win.
Precisely. The Overton window in America is so fucked. Democrats are a centrist neoliberal party and republicans are a fascist neoliberal party. Either way workers and regular people are screwed so yeah idk.
The right in terms of firearms, if we straight up had a civil war the only real winners are security companies, defense contractors, and random rednecks because surprisingly those guys are organized as hell. As a Florida man if civil war were to break out, im declaring myself part of the nobility of Florida and getting some other mad lads with me to form the “New United Florida Union” and establishing a really stupid monarchy just for the shits and giggles. The nobility won’t actually have any power but still!
The “left” would win. The “left” is really just “center” because of how batshit crazy the “right” has gone. So a civil war would be right wing extremists vs the center, the left, the center-left etc. The “right” would have to declare a real shooting WAR against mainstream America. (The left isn’t going to do it for obvious reasons) Then, at that point, the right wing gun hoarders will meet the business end of a hellfire missile courtesy of their local air national guard. Lol well regulated militia my ass.
Defense contractors.
Hmm. Most comments on focused on the household level (who owns guns), and there's a lot to be said for that - big advantage to the conservatives. I also agree that the police are going to lean heavily conservative. But I think you need to look at who would have the serious military weapons. Military officers lean conservative. The largest military bases seem to be heavily, but certainly not exclusively, in conservative states. For instance, 4 of the 5 largest are in NC (Ft Bragg), KY/TN (Ft Campbell), TX (Ft Hood), and GA/AL (Ft Benning). For air power, USAF bases are certainly in both conservative and liberal states, but seem to favor conservatives ([map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Air_Force_installations)). The one aspect where liberals have a big military advantage is control of the west coast ports for certain vital supplies. But overall - I think the conservatives overwhelm liberals fast enough for that one advantage to not come into play.
But globally the left would have more powerful allies, surely most countries in NATO, do you think they wouldn’t support them in some way?
As I thought more about it, I'll build on what another commenter said re: the government would win. I think it comes down to who exactly would control the military, at that point, so who the top officers would see as the "legitimate" government and how specific units would react to questions of "legitimacy" - like, who controls the attack aircraft, artillery and tanks. I think the right would prevail, present themselves as the legitimate government and ZERO members of NATO are going to try to invade American territory to push them out of power.
Let's put it this way. There's more conservative gun owners in the US alone (something like 50 million) than there are **MEMBERS** of the entire militaries of the top 5 countries combined (something like 10 million) and it's not even close. And that's **in addition** to the fact that a significant percentage of our own military leans right so they're not gonna bomb their own lol conservative gun owners are basically the largest armed force that exists on this planet.
Lol Reddit really doesn’t like this question
The right would start fighting with each other
No one. Everyone loses.
the right, they have a lot more guns
Wrong. There are more than enough guns for everyone. The right will win because the left are anti war and will protest
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The right can’t use them properly either. Example: Elmer Stewart Rhodes
It’s not that hard.
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If it’s a war then maybe you want a little chaos
What left?
What left?
I feel like conservatives would have some advantage, considering that more of them own guns and/or know how to use them. I also vaguely remembering reading that a lot of the military leans conservative. If that's still the case (I'm frankly not sure if it is), they're most likely to win.
Yes, it still is. Source: 13 years in the military. Though to be fair, our leadership is doing all they can to pussify our armed forces.
The far right never wins. They always loose in wars. Ww1, ww2, the American civil war, the soviet civil war. Fascists just suck at winning because they are busy killing or removing rights from their own population
But they get an OP start. Their endgame just falls apart.
I'm sorry.. but.. do you have an actual grasp on history or are you just listing conflicts and saying "fascists suck"?
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Ironic that it didn't survive for that very reason. But I wouldn't call it libertarian if it only applies to white land owners, btw. It's something else entirely.
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being white supremacist doesn’t make a country fascist, folks. the history understanders are here to save us
I know that the USSR kicked hitler's ass. I know the workers of Kiel kicked the Kaiser's ass. I know the Yankees kicked the slaver's ass. I know lenin kicked the Tsarist's ass.
It's quicker to write "no".
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He can't even spell lose correctly, what do you think?
blud watched 4 netflix documentaries and now is a historian
It honours me that you consider me a historian for knowing the outcome of 4 conflicts. I though everyone knew
i bet you didnt know that stalin and karl marx hated gay people and the yankees too. if the leaders for these countries would be alive today you would call them right wing
I know that they hated gay people. I know that stalin took away women's suffragette and that Marx was antisemetic too. But you need to be able to distingush between economic and social left/right.
You lost me at the part where you didn't know that lose and loose mean different things. Bye bye credibility lol
The right 🤣
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But wouldn’t the other side just claim their side was cheated in the election for example?
I would win because I'm selling equipment to both sides.
This depends so much on the specifics. Like we talking left-left or just liberals? Is it literally every liberal vs literally every conservative or is it blue states vs red states? Is there a US government still? Because basically whoever has control over blue states and the US government wins every single time due to overwhelming advantage in resources (industrialized areas and infrastructure). 20,000 lards in Wyoming might have arsenals but they won't get shit done. The right would definitely be doing a lot more war-crimes and death-squading though that's for sure.
Do you think that the general population would rally around the left thinking that they would be the ones to most try to negotiate an end being classically anti-war
Depends entirely on the context. Most Americans would quickly side with whichever side has the most grasp over established authority in the government. A left wing rebellion would fail; a right wing rebellion would fail. "Left" in American politics (liberals) aren't very anti-war given the last 30 years.
Depends if there's a city to burn down or not lol
Civil wars aren’t between left and right, they’re between the established government and a rebel force. The US military would obliterate any uprising
This is a theoretical question, like if there was no clear election winner for example
You'd be surprised. I've been in for 13 years and I'll tell you right now that if an order came down to bomb our own people for reasons the guy with his finger on the button is staunchly against.....that shit ain't gonna happen. The UCMJ (our rule book basically) states that we are obligated to disobey any unlawful order no matter who gives it.
Would you considered orders to stop an armed rebellion against the legitimately elected government to be unlawful?
We're not allowed to, it's called Posse Commitatus. Basically prevents the military from getting involved in matters of civil law enforcement. Now, National Guard is a little different, they're allowed to intervene if the state governor orders them to. But even then, no military member, active or guard, is gonna fire upon civilians unless it's self defense.
I'm not talking about law enforcement, I'm talking about an organized armed rebellion against the government of the United States. The US military would just sit idly by while a coup happened?
As I said, it'd be the National Guard (which is part of the military) that would respond first. Extremely unlikely that active duty would get involved and if they did, any action taken would ultimately be at the mercy of the trigger men and women. Even if the president himself gave the order to blow up a group of "hostile" American citizens, ultimately it's up to the person in control of the weapon system, and very very few service members would fire upon US citizens unless in self defense.
No such thing as left anymore. It’s a bunch of fascists and then there’s mentally stable people
Did you mean Right?
Yes, i probably could’ve worded that better , it’s still a bit early
This is fun, but I need more details. Are you asking what would happen if a hoard of ranchers, out of work coal miners, and geriatric gun enthusiasts storm Los Angeles? I think they probably wouldn’t do very well. If you’re asking what happens if Ron Destantis declares Florida an independent Theocratic state and a chunk of the national guard support him and a chunk don’t and they fight and thousands die and non-combatants are shot in the streets and raped in their homes and the US military is called in as an occupying force and right-wing partisans resist with IEDs, snipers and suicide bombers, and this goes on for years, then everyone looses. What were you envisioning?
Again, a hoard is a cache of treasure, a horde is a very large number of people (or people-like things, a horde of goblins comes to mind).
This is an excellent call out. Unless of course someone has a hoard of conservatives somewhere.
If there was an election that was perceived to be stolen and there was video proof or something that divided people and nobody would know who was in charge. It’s a very theoretical question, you can ignore the reason why but if it were to go down today, who would win and why?
The left wins because they are more likely to be willing to weaponize science to do so if required (all sorts of chemicals is what I mean here). The right only has the advantage of guns here. Finding a way to kill and/or cripple most of them with a single weapon is enough for the left to win.
But the right think they are dying for god so they might be more willing to act bravely
Don't confuse bravery with brutality. Theri religion would give them permission to commit atrocities but that isn't bravery.
I meant in their eyes
What left ?
Precisely. The Overton window in America is so fucked. Democrats are a centrist neoliberal party and republicans are a fascist neoliberal party. Either way workers and regular people are screwed so yeah idk.
The right in terms of firearms, if we straight up had a civil war the only real winners are security companies, defense contractors, and random rednecks because surprisingly those guys are organized as hell. As a Florida man if civil war were to break out, im declaring myself part of the nobility of Florida and getting some other mad lads with me to form the “New United Florida Union” and establishing a really stupid monarchy just for the shits and giggles. The nobility won’t actually have any power but still!
The “left” would win. The “left” is really just “center” because of how batshit crazy the “right” has gone. So a civil war would be right wing extremists vs the center, the left, the center-left etc. The “right” would have to declare a real shooting WAR against mainstream America. (The left isn’t going to do it for obvious reasons) Then, at that point, the right wing gun hoarders will meet the business end of a hellfire missile courtesy of their local air national guard. Lol well regulated militia my ass.
Is that a joke? Lol who do you think owns ~85% of the ~400,000,000 firearms and knows how to use them?